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More reward for micro does not mean more micro. Look at SC2 units. For the most part, they're devoid of any technique associated with them simply because the engine does not allow for that. If someone finds something, it gets patched out. There are units that are the exceptions (pretty much just Marines and Banelings), but for the most part, the BW-esque micro (i.e. various techniques that require you to learn and practice their execution) is not there. There's some WC3-like micro, that relies on spell casting, but it's still a far cry from BW. ;;
Just compare SC2 units with their BW counterparts. It's clear that the BW ones allow for more micro. It's especially evident in units that are seemingly similar, like Mutas or Tanks.
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I think we all have to thank FXOBoss for telling us this would happen. We often forget what people announce but I think we have to give credit where it's due and realize what he said was correct - Something big was coming and it came in full force.
As for players like JaeDong/Flash playing SC2, they'll still be dominant. I don't think most people know how much better they are than the average BW player. Some people are amazed that players have a 70% win rate internationally (means includes foreigners), these guys have a 70% win rate against other A/S class progamers...
But win rates aside, they're just so much better because they understand the game. Not just the strategies/timings/builds, they study army movement, positions on the maps, expansion/scout/scan timings and everything. You wouldn't believe how deep of an understanding these guys have of the game. When the coaches say players like Jaedong have a "good understanding of the game," it's a huge understatement.
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I stopped reading at B07 with ace match.
I don't care which game is being played. It's starcraft. B07. Ace match.
That's good enough for me. I'll watch that any day of the week. Any time of day.
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On April 06 2012 13:27 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 11:12 Chef wrote:On April 06 2012 11:03 RageCommodore wrote:On April 06 2012 10:55 RJGooner wrote:This is horrible  (. I guess it's not the worst thing ever because there's still some BW but what happens the year after or the year after that? Community efforts. I understand why everybody is sad to see this happening, but while BW's professional future in Korea is in a stage where we don't know what will happen, we surely know that the game will live on as long as there is a dedicated community. It would be very sad if everybody just went away with the end of Korean Starcraft. I've just joined this scene a short time ago, and I don't want to see it vanish. After all, I won't give up all hope until everything is official. . But there are definitely going to be people who after seeing BW played at its highest level aren't going to be interested in amateurs We call those people "fair-weather fans".
If you are calling what BW fans of the Korean scene have been through the last few years "fair-weather" then I don't think you have been around long enough to know what fair-weather was for BW.
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On April 06 2012 23:02 maybenexttime wrote:
More reward for micro does not mean more micro. Look at SC2 units. For the most part, they're devoid of any technique associated with them simply because the engine does not allow for that. If someone finds something, it gets patched out. There are units that are the exceptions (pretty much just Marines and Banelings), but for the most part, the BW-esque micro (i.e. various techniques that require you to learn and practice their execution) is not there. There's some WC3-like micro, that relies on spell casting, but it's still a far cry from BW. ;;
Just compare SC2 units with their BW counterparts. It's clear that the BW ones allow for more micro. It's especially evident in units that are seemingly similar, like Mutas or Tanks.
I understand and agree with your point, but most people will probably just see it as bias or nostalgia. People that never watched BW and are inherently biased towards sc2 will just see your post as 'but the micro in bw was cooler and harder and thats that.'
A large part of what made spell-micro moments exciting in BW is how difficult spellcasting was in that game. Viewers knew that what they were watching was hard to achieve, and they enjoyed watching progamers overcome the hurdle of the AI and UI to force the units to their will.
Nowadays sc2 fans despise AI/UI limitations, and as such the only aspect of spellcasting that is skillfull anymore is accuracy and your ability to predict unit movement.
For example, imagine jangbi storms. would such storms be an amazing, jaw dropping, unique event in sc2?
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On April 06 2012 22:50 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 22:30 maybenexttime wrote:On April 06 2012 22:10 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 20:04 RageCommodore wrote:On April 06 2012 17:47 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 17:11 Sawamura wrote:On April 06 2012 17:03 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 16:34 Sawamura wrote:
I would probably watch sc2 games if Barrin 6mineral 1 gas(FRB) is implemented in to the pro scene . From an old bw fan perspective on this development it's great that sc2 community is able to direct their future rather than waiting for blizzard to do something and magically create a better game for themselves .
This in my opinion is definitely a step to a better future for sc2 and I am hopeful that the lack of resources will force players to try to do minor guerilla tactics to get that extra base running and this will lead to more engagement and special tactics being employed by players to win in the middle and late game . I see 6min1gas I think about broodwar and I would definitely let my negativity about sc2 fade away if every game of sc2 is actually played on maps like 6min1gas.
Hopefully this idea of barrins is widely accepted and probably it's the last chance for sc2 to make thing's finally right . Yeah, 6m1gas feels like Brood War. I think it'll probably take some time to be accepted, unless KeSPA forces it, because there'll be balance hiccups and such, but it's such a massive improvement in the game to play and to watch. It will, inevitably, be the standard, with or without Blizzard's involvement. I think 6m1g is almost as big an idea to SC2 as "natural" expansions were to BW. There's a 6m1g tournament next week with some low-level pros (and Ganzi, who kind of outclasses them), and I'm really looking forward to it. Have you actually tried 6m maps? They're much more fun to play, as well. On April 06 2012 16:47 etrensce wrote:On April 06 2012 16:34 Sawamura wrote:
I would probably watch sc2 games if Barrin 6mineral 1 gas(FRB) is implemented in to the pro scene . From an old bw fan perspective on this development it's great that sc2 community is able to direct their future rather than waiting for blizzard to do something and magically create a better game for themselves .
This in my opinion is definitely a step to a better future for sc2 and I am hopeful that the lack of resources will force players to try to do minor guerilla tactics to get that extra base running and this will lead to more engagement and special tactics being employed by players to win in the middle and late game . I see 6min1gas I think about broodwar and I would definitely let my negativity about sc2 fade away if every game of sc2 is actually played on maps like 6min1gas.
Hopefully this idea of barrins is widely accepted and probably it's the last chance for sc2 to make thing's finally right . 6m1g would mean terrans will roflstomp everything. good viewing right there This does not seem to be the case either in my own experience, or in higher-level tests. Some of the openings are a bit weird, but 6m1g is really such "SC2 but better in every way". You can't just sit on your ass and turtle to 200, even as Zerg, and it just feels so much more active, and fast-paced. Don't have a copy of sc2 but I don't mind watching a few vods with 6min1gas maps being played by sc2 pro's. It's a really tiny prize pool, but there's a 6m tournament next week with Ganzi and IntoTheRainbow, among some lower-tier foreign pros. I have high hopes for it. On April 06 2012 17:33 storkfan wrote:On April 06 2012 15:58 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 06 2012 15:12 Sinedd wrote:
my biggest concern is that SC2 is so much easier for the pros to play than BW, that awesome gosu players wont be as much dominant as in BW, and they'll wont be able to show all of their skills because of adjustable hotkeys, easier mechanics etc..
the skill gap between gosu and medium players will be significantly smaller.. which makes me kinda sad ;(
I thought the transition is going to take more time than this.. I'm concerned that the gosus will initially not dominate as much in both games not because of SC2's game design but because they may be forced to practice both games at once. Perhaps the game design might come in to limit their abilities later if they play full time, but I'm afraid that the players will be stretched too thin and will do poorly in both games at once. Like, a Bisu doing 50% BW and 50% SC2 may easily get sniped in a match by someone who does 100% BW or 100% SC2. I'm afraid of this. I'm also afraid that match quality, in both games, will be pretty bad. The novelty of watching BW pros playing against each other in SC2 might wear off if they consistently play at only a high-masters level due to practicing both games at once. If that happens, I might be more entertained watching the cutting-edge of the SC2 metagame in GSL rather than watch lower-level matches played by part-time players in the hybrid Proleague. And then the hybrid pros will be more vulnerable to less-skilled players who play BW full-time. Playing at a professional level is already a tightrope act as is, and Team 8's poor performance shows how even the most subtle of changes can have significant negative effects to performance. tbh, I would rather see Jaedong either be good at BW or good at SC2 rather than see him be mediocre at both. Have you seen the foreign BW scene? They are not as good but that is a beauty in IT SELF. All the esoteric plays and unpredictable follow ups, foreign bw scene is amazing because of that, some of my greatest experiences have been watching foreign tourneys. The korean scene, to be honest, is slightly formulaic in comparison I agree, and this is why most've my tournaments have had weird map pools or stipulations (I'm thinking of having a Zerg-only tournament, and banning Spires). Sloppy play is fun, too. BTW, does your plan to host a sc2-to-BW map conversion tournament still stand? I really want to see that :D I was waiting for some more good map conversions to come out, but I think if I did that now all the BW fans would get mad  On April 06 2012 21:06 maybenexttime wrote:On April 06 2012 20:52 cuppatea wrote:On April 06 2012 20:35 maybenexttime wrote:On April 06 2012 20:16 MrCon wrote:
Perhaps it'll be better than expected. Sc2 fans will discover broodwar, broodwar fans will discover that sc2 can also produce good and exciting games. It could bring a new influx of fans in both scenes. How can BW players discover SC2? The fact that we don't like it nearly as fun as BW and find it boring to watch is not a problem of not enough exposure. The thing is, the "we" you refer to is just a small, hardcore minority that remains after the foreign BW scene has, on the whole, embraced SC2. There are less people viewing Pro League games on here now than there were when I first joined the site, even though the user-base has increased tenfold. You guys act like Blizzard has failed because they haven't satisfied the 1k people watching Pro League games, but I would argue they succeeded because they have satisfied the 100k who watched the IEM finals. I'm not talking about just the foreign BW community... And in case you didn't notice, the SC2 forum is riddled with topics regarding SC2's numerous flaws. The majority of which are fixed by 6m1hyg. It's a completely different, and much better, game on those maps. Except for the lack of micro (and I don't mean spamming spells but rather Marines vs Banelings kind of thing) and the lack of space controlling units. It's not that you CAN'T micro in SC2, it's that it doesn't matter because you've got 200 supply and 2,000/2,000 in the bank, so micro is never worth the effort. In small engagements, there actually is decent to good micro, as ForGG made a name for himself in SC2 proving. http://www.justin.tv/esvision/b/297427406 6m1hyg leads to much smaller armies, with much more incentive to break up into raiding parties. With smaller armies, more micro is renwarded = more micro is seen. The lack of space controlling units...Tanks are still good, a lot of Zergs are realizing that spine crawlers fill the space control role quite well. I guess Protoss has Sentries in the early game and Mothership in late and not really much in midgame, but they kind of didn't in BW either.
I thought unit pathing was the reason that people "don't micro"?
And the lack of space controlling unit was also due the unit pathing since they would be plain OP when everything clumps automatically.
e.g.
Siege Tank - heavily nerfed,
High Templar - heavily nerfed,
Reaver - out of the game
Lurker - out of the game
...
TBH I'm curious to see how 6m1g would fix all those things people are complaining about..
+ Show Spoiler +
Mining AI - twice the amount of workers per resource node needed to saturate a base, leading to less bases and less food count for army.
Unit pathing - units clump too easily, splash were nerfed across the board. Encourage keeping everything in a ball to maximize DPS; units die too quickly...
Unit design:
250mm Strike Cannons, Seeker Missile, etc. - expensive spells that are either hit/miss (and usually miss)
EMP, Snipe, FF, FG, etc. - not quite expensive spells that have no recourse for the opponent once casted
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On April 07 2012 00:22 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 23:02 maybenexttime wrote:
More reward for micro does not mean more micro. Look at SC2 units. For the most part, they're devoid of any technique associated with them simply because the engine does not allow for that. If someone finds something, it gets patched out. There are units that are the exceptions (pretty much just Marines and Banelings), but for the most part, the BW-esque micro (i.e. various techniques that require you to learn and practice their execution) is not there. There's some WC3-like micro, that relies on spell casting, but it's still a far cry from BW. ;;
Just compare SC2 units with their BW counterparts. It's clear that the BW ones allow for more micro. It's especially evident in units that are seemingly similar, like Mutas or Tanks. I understand and agree with your point, but most people will probably just see it as bias or nostalgia. People that never watched BW and are inherently biased towards sc2 will just see your post as 'but the micro in bw was cooler and harder and thats that.' A large part of what made spell-micro moments exciting in BW is how difficult spellcasting was in that game. Viewers knew that what they were watching was hard to achieve, and they enjoyed watching progamers overcome the hurdle of the AI and UI to force the units to their will. Nowadays sc2 fans despise AI/UI limitations, and as such the only aspect of spellcasting that is skillfull anymore is accuracy and your ability to predict unit movement. For example, imagine jangbi storms. would such storms be an amazing, jaw dropping, unique event in sc2?
The thing that surprised me in SC2 is the lack of multiple prone attacks.
With tools like MBS, Automine, smartcasting and etc, you would expect people to be able to make more moves in Sc2. Instead the trend is going backward.
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On April 07 2012 00:36 ppdealer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 22:50 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 22:30 maybenexttime wrote:On April 06 2012 22:10 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 20:04 RageCommodore wrote:On April 06 2012 17:47 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 17:11 Sawamura wrote:On April 06 2012 17:03 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 16:34 Sawamura wrote:
I would probably watch sc2 games if Barrin 6mineral 1 gas(FRB) is implemented in to the pro scene . From an old bw fan perspective on this development it's great that sc2 community is able to direct their future rather than waiting for blizzard to do something and magically create a better game for themselves .
This in my opinion is definitely a step to a better future for sc2 and I am hopeful that the lack of resources will force players to try to do minor guerilla tactics to get that extra base running and this will lead to more engagement and special tactics being employed by players to win in the middle and late game . I see 6min1gas I think about broodwar and I would definitely let my negativity about sc2 fade away if every game of sc2 is actually played on maps like 6min1gas.
Hopefully this idea of barrins is widely accepted and probably it's the last chance for sc2 to make thing's finally right . Yeah, 6m1gas feels like Brood War. I think it'll probably take some time to be accepted, unless KeSPA forces it, because there'll be balance hiccups and such, but it's such a massive improvement in the game to play and to watch. It will, inevitably, be the standard, with or without Blizzard's involvement. I think 6m1g is almost as big an idea to SC2 as "natural" expansions were to BW. There's a 6m1g tournament next week with some low-level pros (and Ganzi, who kind of outclasses them), and I'm really looking forward to it. Have you actually tried 6m maps? They're much more fun to play, as well. On April 06 2012 16:47 etrensce wrote:On April 06 2012 16:34 Sawamura wrote:
I would probably watch sc2 games if Barrin 6mineral 1 gas(FRB) is implemented in to the pro scene . From an old bw fan perspective on this development it's great that sc2 community is able to direct their future rather than waiting for blizzard to do something and magically create a better game for themselves .
This in my opinion is definitely a step to a better future for sc2 and I am hopeful that the lack of resources will force players to try to do minor guerilla tactics to get that extra base running and this will lead to more engagement and special tactics being employed by players to win in the middle and late game . I see 6min1gas I think about broodwar and I would definitely let my negativity about sc2 fade away if every game of sc2 is actually played on maps like 6min1gas.
Hopefully this idea of barrins is widely accepted and probably it's the last chance for sc2 to make thing's finally right . 6m1g would mean terrans will roflstomp everything. good viewing right there This does not seem to be the case either in my own experience, or in higher-level tests. Some of the openings are a bit weird, but 6m1g is really such "SC2 but better in every way". You can't just sit on your ass and turtle to 200, even as Zerg, and it just feels so much more active, and fast-paced. Don't have a copy of sc2 but I don't mind watching a few vods with 6min1gas maps being played by sc2 pro's. It's a really tiny prize pool, but there's a 6m tournament next week with Ganzi and IntoTheRainbow, among some lower-tier foreign pros. I have high hopes for it. On April 06 2012 17:33 storkfan wrote:On April 06 2012 15:58 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 06 2012 15:12 Sinedd wrote:
my biggest concern is that SC2 is so much easier for the pros to play than BW, that awesome gosu players wont be as much dominant as in BW, and they'll wont be able to show all of their skills because of adjustable hotkeys, easier mechanics etc..
the skill gap between gosu and medium players will be significantly smaller.. which makes me kinda sad ;(
I thought the transition is going to take more time than this.. I'm concerned that the gosus will initially not dominate as much in both games not because of SC2's game design but because they may be forced to practice both games at once. Perhaps the game design might come in to limit their abilities later if they play full time, but I'm afraid that the players will be stretched too thin and will do poorly in both games at once. Like, a Bisu doing 50% BW and 50% SC2 may easily get sniped in a match by someone who does 100% BW or 100% SC2. I'm afraid of this. I'm also afraid that match quality, in both games, will be pretty bad. The novelty of watching BW pros playing against each other in SC2 might wear off if they consistently play at only a high-masters level due to practicing both games at once. If that happens, I might be more entertained watching the cutting-edge of the SC2 metagame in GSL rather than watch lower-level matches played by part-time players in the hybrid Proleague. And then the hybrid pros will be more vulnerable to less-skilled players who play BW full-time. Playing at a professional level is already a tightrope act as is, and Team 8's poor performance shows how even the most subtle of changes can have significant negative effects to performance. tbh, I would rather see Jaedong either be good at BW or good at SC2 rather than see him be mediocre at both. Have you seen the foreign BW scene? They are not as good but that is a beauty in IT SELF. All the esoteric plays and unpredictable follow ups, foreign bw scene is amazing because of that, some of my greatest experiences have been watching foreign tourneys. The korean scene, to be honest, is slightly formulaic in comparison I agree, and this is why most've my tournaments have had weird map pools or stipulations (I'm thinking of having a Zerg-only tournament, and banning Spires). Sloppy play is fun, too. BTW, does your plan to host a sc2-to-BW map conversion tournament still stand? I really want to see that :D I was waiting for some more good map conversions to come out, but I think if I did that now all the BW fans would get mad On April 06 2012 21:06 maybenexttime wrote:On April 06 2012 20:52 cuppatea wrote:On April 06 2012 20:35 maybenexttime wrote:On April 06 2012 20:16 MrCon wrote:
Perhaps it'll be better than expected. Sc2 fans will discover broodwar, broodwar fans will discover that sc2 can also produce good and exciting games. It could bring a new influx of fans in both scenes. How can BW players discover SC2? The fact that we don't like it nearly as fun as BW and find it boring to watch is not a problem of not enough exposure. The thing is, the "we" you refer to is just a small, hardcore minority that remains after the foreign BW scene has, on the whole, embraced SC2. There are less people viewing Pro League games on here now than there were when I first joined the site, even though the user-base has increased tenfold. You guys act like Blizzard has failed because they haven't satisfied the 1k people watching Pro League games, but I would argue they succeeded because they have satisfied the 100k who watched the IEM finals. I'm not talking about just the foreign BW community... And in case you didn't notice, the SC2 forum is riddled with topics regarding SC2's numerous flaws. The majority of which are fixed by 6m1hyg. It's a completely different, and much better, game on those maps. Except for the lack of micro (and I don't mean spamming spells but rather Marines vs Banelings kind of thing) and the lack of space controlling units. It's not that you CAN'T micro in SC2, it's that it doesn't matter because you've got 200 supply and 2,000/2,000 in the bank, so micro is never worth the effort. In small engagements, there actually is decent to good micro, as ForGG made a name for himself in SC2 proving. http://www.justin.tv/esvision/b/297427406 6m1hyg leads to much smaller armies, with much more incentive to break up into raiding parties. With smaller armies, more micro is renwarded = more micro is seen. The lack of space controlling units...Tanks are still good, a lot of Zergs are realizing that spine crawlers fill the space control role quite well. I guess Protoss has Sentries in the early game and Mothership in late and not really much in midgame, but they kind of didn't in BW either. I thought unit pathing was the reason that people "don't micro"? And the lack of space controlling unit was also due the unit pathing since they would be plain OP when everything clumps automatically. e.g. Siege Tank - heavily nerfed, High Templar - heavily nerfed, Reaver - out of the game Lurker - out of the game ... TBH I'm curious to see how 6m1g would fix all those things people are complaining about.. + Show Spoiler +
Mining AI - twice the amount of workers per resource node needed to saturate a base, leading to less bases and less food count for army.
Unit pathing - units clump too easily, splash were nerfed across the board. Encourage keeping everything in a ball to maximize DPS; units die too quickly...
Unit design:
250mm Strike Cannons, Seeker Missile, etc. - expensive spells that are either hit/miss (and usually miss)
EMP, Snipe, FF, FG, etc. - not quite expensive spells that have no recourse for the opponent once casted
I haven't played much BW, but how was high templar heavily nerfed? Against Terran it is very, very strong (partly because units clump up a lot), and practically impossible to micro against.
And Xiphos, in TvZ for instance there are many, many multiprolonged attacks/harasses. Not so much in the other matchups unfortunately.
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On April 07 2012 00:38 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 00:22 TheAntZ wrote:On April 06 2012 23:02 maybenexttime wrote:
More reward for micro does not mean more micro. Look at SC2 units. For the most part, they're devoid of any technique associated with them simply because the engine does not allow for that. If someone finds something, it gets patched out. There are units that are the exceptions (pretty much just Marines and Banelings), but for the most part, the BW-esque micro (i.e. various techniques that require you to learn and practice their execution) is not there. There's some WC3-like micro, that relies on spell casting, but it's still a far cry from BW. ;;
Just compare SC2 units with their BW counterparts. It's clear that the BW ones allow for more micro. It's especially evident in units that are seemingly similar, like Mutas or Tanks. I understand and agree with your point, but most people will probably just see it as bias or nostalgia. People that never watched BW and are inherently biased towards sc2 will just see your post as 'but the micro in bw was cooler and harder and thats that.' A large part of what made spell-micro moments exciting in BW is how difficult spellcasting was in that game. Viewers knew that what they were watching was hard to achieve, and they enjoyed watching progamers overcome the hurdle of the AI and UI to force the units to their will. Nowadays sc2 fans despise AI/UI limitations, and as such the only aspect of spellcasting that is skillfull anymore is accuracy and your ability to predict unit movement. For example, imagine jangbi storms. would such storms be an amazing, jaw dropping, unique event in sc2? The thing that surprised me in SC2 is the lack of multiple prone attacks. With tools like MBS, Automine, smartcasting and etc, you would expect people to be able to make more moves in Sc2. Instead the trend is going backward.
the pace of combat is much faster than in brood war, basically 1 sec means your army dies, firepower also scales to well because of unit clumping, 10 marines are laughabvle but 30 marines are super strong, thats why you dont see multi prong battles, also the fact that in BW you had to move your armies in groups of 12 also forced multi pronged engagements, its pretty simple, you had to select and attack 5 groups you could aswell select 1 group to attack in different place, and it didnt hinder your overall APM because in BW your opponent also had to select 5 groups and attack command them, in SC2 the guy who use 2 more commands is second behind a guy who uses 1 command to control his army, resulting in a fear to split your army, people split their armies when it doesnt hinder their effectiveness in most cases it does.
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On April 07 2012 00:45 huehuehuehue wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 00:36 ppdealer wrote:On April 06 2012 22:50 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 22:30 maybenexttime wrote:On April 06 2012 22:10 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 20:04 RageCommodore wrote:On April 06 2012 17:47 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 17:11 Sawamura wrote:On April 06 2012 17:03 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 16:34 Sawamura wrote:
I would probably watch sc2 games if Barrin 6mineral 1 gas(FRB) is implemented in to the pro scene . From an old bw fan perspective on this development it's great that sc2 community is able to direct their future rather than waiting for blizzard to do something and magically create a better game for themselves .
This in my opinion is definitely a step to a better future for sc2 and I am hopeful that the lack of resources will force players to try to do minor guerilla tactics to get that extra base running and this will lead to more engagement and special tactics being employed by players to win in the middle and late game . I see 6min1gas I think about broodwar and I would definitely let my negativity about sc2 fade away if every game of sc2 is actually played on maps like 6min1gas.
Hopefully this idea of barrins is widely accepted and probably it's the last chance for sc2 to make thing's finally right . Yeah, 6m1gas feels like Brood War. I think it'll probably take some time to be accepted, unless KeSPA forces it, because there'll be balance hiccups and such, but it's such a massive improvement in the game to play and to watch. It will, inevitably, be the standard, with or without Blizzard's involvement. I think 6m1g is almost as big an idea to SC2 as "natural" expansions were to BW. There's a 6m1g tournament next week with some low-level pros (and Ganzi, who kind of outclasses them), and I'm really looking forward to it. Have you actually tried 6m maps? They're much more fun to play, as well. On April 06 2012 16:47 etrensce wrote:
[quote]
6m1g would mean terrans will roflstomp everything. good viewing right there This does not seem to be the case either in my own experience, or in higher-level tests. Some of the openings are a bit weird, but 6m1g is really such "SC2 but better in every way". You can't just sit on your ass and turtle to 200, even as Zerg, and it just feels so much more active, and fast-paced. Don't have a copy of sc2 but I don't mind watching a few vods with 6min1gas maps being played by sc2 pro's. It's a really tiny prize pool, but there's a 6m tournament next week with Ganzi and IntoTheRainbow, among some lower-tier foreign pros. I have high hopes for it. On April 06 2012 17:33 storkfan wrote:On April 06 2012 15:58 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 06 2012 15:12 Sinedd wrote:
my biggest concern is that SC2 is so much easier for the pros to play than BW, that awesome gosu players wont be as much dominant as in BW, and they'll wont be able to show all of their skills because of adjustable hotkeys, easier mechanics etc..
the skill gap between gosu and medium players will be significantly smaller.. which makes me kinda sad ;(
I thought the transition is going to take more time than this.. I'm concerned that the gosus will initially not dominate as much in both games not because of SC2's game design but because they may be forced to practice both games at once. Perhaps the game design might come in to limit their abilities later if they play full time, but I'm afraid that the players will be stretched too thin and will do poorly in both games at once. Like, a Bisu doing 50% BW and 50% SC2 may easily get sniped in a match by someone who does 100% BW or 100% SC2. I'm afraid of this. I'm also afraid that match quality, in both games, will be pretty bad. The novelty of watching BW pros playing against each other in SC2 might wear off if they consistently play at only a high-masters level due to practicing both games at once. If that happens, I might be more entertained watching the cutting-edge of the SC2 metagame in GSL rather than watch lower-level matches played by part-time players in the hybrid Proleague. And then the hybrid pros will be more vulnerable to less-skilled players who play BW full-time. Playing at a professional level is already a tightrope act as is, and Team 8's poor performance shows how even the most subtle of changes can have significant negative effects to performance. tbh, I would rather see Jaedong either be good at BW or good at SC2 rather than see him be mediocre at both. Have you seen the foreign BW scene? They are not as good but that is a beauty in IT SELF. All the esoteric plays and unpredictable follow ups, foreign bw scene is amazing because of that, some of my greatest experiences have been watching foreign tourneys. The korean scene, to be honest, is slightly formulaic in comparison I agree, and this is why most've my tournaments have had weird map pools or stipulations (I'm thinking of having a Zerg-only tournament, and banning Spires). Sloppy play is fun, too. BTW, does your plan to host a sc2-to-BW map conversion tournament still stand? I really want to see that :D I was waiting for some more good map conversions to come out, but I think if I did that now all the BW fans would get mad On April 06 2012 21:06 maybenexttime wrote:On April 06 2012 20:52 cuppatea wrote:On April 06 2012 20:35 maybenexttime wrote:On April 06 2012 20:16 MrCon wrote:
Perhaps it'll be better than expected. Sc2 fans will discover broodwar, broodwar fans will discover that sc2 can also produce good and exciting games. It could bring a new influx of fans in both scenes. How can BW players discover SC2? The fact that we don't like it nearly as fun as BW and find it boring to watch is not a problem of not enough exposure. The thing is, the "we" you refer to is just a small, hardcore minority that remains after the foreign BW scene has, on the whole, embraced SC2. There are less people viewing Pro League games on here now than there were when I first joined the site, even though the user-base has increased tenfold. You guys act like Blizzard has failed because they haven't satisfied the 1k people watching Pro League games, but I would argue they succeeded because they have satisfied the 100k who watched the IEM finals. I'm not talking about just the foreign BW community... And in case you didn't notice, the SC2 forum is riddled with topics regarding SC2's numerous flaws. The majority of which are fixed by 6m1hyg. It's a completely different, and much better, game on those maps. Except for the lack of micro (and I don't mean spamming spells but rather Marines vs Banelings kind of thing) and the lack of space controlling units. It's not that you CAN'T micro in SC2, it's that it doesn't matter because you've got 200 supply and 2,000/2,000 in the bank, so micro is never worth the effort. In small engagements, there actually is decent to good micro, as ForGG made a name for himself in SC2 proving. http://www.justin.tv/esvision/b/297427406 6m1hyg leads to much smaller armies, with much more incentive to break up into raiding parties. With smaller armies, more micro is renwarded = more micro is seen. The lack of space controlling units...Tanks are still good, a lot of Zergs are realizing that spine crawlers fill the space control role quite well. I guess Protoss has Sentries in the early game and Mothership in late and not really much in midgame, but they kind of didn't in BW either. I thought unit pathing was the reason that people "don't micro"? And the lack of space controlling unit was also due the unit pathing since they would be plain OP when everything clumps automatically. e.g. Siege Tank - heavily nerfed, High Templar - heavily nerfed, Reaver - out of the game Lurker - out of the game ... TBH I'm curious to see how 6m1g would fix all those things people are complaining about.. + Show Spoiler +
Mining AI - twice the amount of workers per resource node needed to saturate a base, leading to less bases and less food count for army.
Unit pathing - units clump too easily, splash were nerfed across the board. Encourage keeping everything in a ball to maximize DPS; units die too quickly...
Unit design:
250mm Strike Cannons, Seeker Missile, etc. - expensive spells that are either hit/miss (and usually miss)
EMP, Snipe, FF, FG, etc. - not quite expensive spells that have no recourse for the opponent once casted
I haven't played much BW, but how was high templar heavily nerfed? Against Terran it is very, very strong (partly because units clump up a lot), and practically impossible to micro against. And Xiphos, in TvZ for instance there are many, many multiprolonged attacks/harasses. Not so much in the other matchups unfortunately.
Storm was nerfed from BW to SC2, in BW it did around edit: 112 dmg and had a wider Area of Effect, in SC2 it was nerfed because units clump up so much. Storm was used in all 3 mu's. It was a must against zerg (as there was no other way to deal with hydras, maybe reavers but not so much) Storm is never used in PvP in sc2, but it was important in bw.
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Yea, I noticed that too Xiphos.
In SC2 it usually happens little skirmishes one at time, until it comes down to the 200/200 decisive battle, while in BW you have skirmishes all over the map simultaneously all game long.
Only SC2 terran drops come close to that, when they usually drop&stim (and fucking heal, seriously how is that fair?) at multiple places at same time.
There are also those stupid towers who give vision of like 30% of the map, usually the center, which makes flanking way less interesting because everyone can see everything... and there is also that zerg creep spread which gives vision, but at least you can destroy that shit..
The only exciting thing I, as a BW fan, found watching pro SC2 was the bane/marine micro. That is the very only thing in SC2 that can make one get on the edge of the seat. The rest is just 'meh'.
edit: BW storm is 112 dmg, if it was 130 we could kill an entire muta stack with only 1 :p Also, in BW pulling off good spells is REALLY REALLY hard, unlike in SC2 where even me, a lame ass, could pull off Jangbi storms all over the enemy army...
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On April 07 2012 00:22 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 23:02 maybenexttime wrote:
More reward for micro does not mean more micro. Look at SC2 units. For the most part, they're devoid of any technique associated with them simply because the engine does not allow for that. If someone finds something, it gets patched out. There are units that are the exceptions (pretty much just Marines and Banelings), but for the most part, the BW-esque micro (i.e. various techniques that require you to learn and practice their execution) is not there. There's some WC3-like micro, that relies on spell casting, but it's still a far cry from BW. ;;
Just compare SC2 units with their BW counterparts. It's clear that the BW ones allow for more micro. It's especially evident in units that are seemingly similar, like Mutas or Tanks. I understand and agree with your point, but most people will probably just see it as bias or nostalgia. People that never watched BW and are inherently biased towards sc2 will just see your post as 'but the micro in bw was cooler and harder and thats that.' A large part of what made spell-micro moments exciting in BW is how difficult spellcasting was in that game. Viewers knew that what they were watching was hard to achieve, and they enjoyed watching progamers overcome the hurdle of the AI and UI to force the units to their will. Nowadays sc2 fans despise AI/UI limitations, and as such the only aspect of spellcasting that is skillfull anymore is accuracy and your ability to predict unit movement. For example, imagine jangbi storms. would such storms be an amazing, jaw dropping, unique event in sc2?
That's my point. Such micro wouldn't be impressive (doesn't mean smart-cast really is necessary - CNC3 and RA3 did not have it, and CNC has some of the worst/most spoiled casuals). That's why SC2 needs a LOT more mechanical micro akin to Marines vs. Banelings interactions or techniques associated with those two units in general (Baneling landmines, Baneling drops, Marine spreading vs. Tanks, Stim run-in snipes or whatever SC2 players call those). While such type of micro is pretty much limited to only Marines and Banelings in SC2, in BW pretty much all units have at least one such technique (not necessarily unique to them).
E.g. Zealots (with speed) have mine dragging, bombing, "confusing Siege Tanks), etc. Goons can defuse mines without Observers, Reavers require Shuttles to move around (they could bring back Medivac speed and rework Thors so that they're slower and require Medivacs to move around), Mutas have several different techniques one can learn (the Chinese triangle e.g.), Vultures have patrol micro, Lurkers have hold-Lurker trick, Medics are good at blocking enemy units, and so on.
SC2's AI is too intelligent for it's own sake. Imagine Siege Tanks with overkill (and more resilient Phase Prisms) - suddenly Zealot bombs are possible again, Immortals become great at breaking siege lines not because Blizzard gave them a significant buff against armored units, but because you can send them in beforethe rest of your units and have Siege Tanks waste their first round of shots on their shields. Imagine Mutas being as maneuverable as in BW and capable of stacking (they could easily fix stacking by making the stack density inversely proportional to the number of air units selected) - people would be surprised they used to be impressed by something like "magic boxing" them. Same for Vikings no longer looking like stationary turrets. Why can't blizzard implement real moving shot?
Remember Void Ray fazing? Why not bring it back? Why not fix unit clumping? That way they could make spells stronger because it's be harder to hit large numbers of units with them. Using Medivacs to drop Marauders on top of Banelings and loading them back before they die would be much more viable since currently there's no room where you can drop them becase units are so close together.
There are so many easy fixes for SC2 micro, yet blizzard refuses to implement any of them. I can understand their reluctance a year ago when they didn't want to the balance they worked hard on achieving, but now that HotS is on the horizon and will reset the balance anyway, can't they entertain the idea of fixing the game with something beyond simple stats alteration?
On April 07 2012 00:45 huehuehuehue wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 00:36 ppdealer wrote:On April 06 2012 22:50 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 22:30 maybenexttime wrote:On April 06 2012 22:10 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 20:04 RageCommodore wrote:On April 06 2012 17:47 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 17:11 Sawamura wrote:On April 06 2012 17:03 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 16:34 Sawamura wrote:
I would probably watch sc2 games if Barrin 6mineral 1 gas(FRB) is implemented in to the pro scene . From an old bw fan perspective on this development it's great that sc2 community is able to direct their future rather than waiting for blizzard to do something and magically create a better game for themselves .
This in my opinion is definitely a step to a better future for sc2 and I am hopeful that the lack of resources will force players to try to do minor guerilla tactics to get that extra base running and this will lead to more engagement and special tactics being employed by players to win in the middle and late game . I see 6min1gas I think about broodwar and I would definitely let my negativity about sc2 fade away if every game of sc2 is actually played on maps like 6min1gas.
Hopefully this idea of barrins is widely accepted and probably it's the last chance for sc2 to make thing's finally right . Yeah, 6m1gas feels like Brood War. I think it'll probably take some time to be accepted, unless KeSPA forces it, because there'll be balance hiccups and such, but it's such a massive improvement in the game to play and to watch. It will, inevitably, be the standard, with or without Blizzard's involvement. I think 6m1g is almost as big an idea to SC2 as "natural" expansions were to BW. There's a 6m1g tournament next week with some low-level pros (and Ganzi, who kind of outclasses them), and I'm really looking forward to it. Have you actually tried 6m maps? They're much more fun to play, as well. On April 06 2012 16:47 etrensce wrote:
[quote]
6m1g would mean terrans will roflstomp everything. good viewing right there This does not seem to be the case either in my own experience, or in higher-level tests. Some of the openings are a bit weird, but 6m1g is really such "SC2 but better in every way". You can't just sit on your ass and turtle to 200, even as Zerg, and it just feels so much more active, and fast-paced. Don't have a copy of sc2 but I don't mind watching a few vods with 6min1gas maps being played by sc2 pro's. It's a really tiny prize pool, but there's a 6m tournament next week with Ganzi and IntoTheRainbow, among some lower-tier foreign pros. I have high hopes for it. On April 06 2012 17:33 storkfan wrote:On April 06 2012 15:58 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 06 2012 15:12 Sinedd wrote:
my biggest concern is that SC2 is so much easier for the pros to play than BW, that awesome gosu players wont be as much dominant as in BW, and they'll wont be able to show all of their skills because of adjustable hotkeys, easier mechanics etc..
the skill gap between gosu and medium players will be significantly smaller.. which makes me kinda sad ;(
I thought the transition is going to take more time than this.. I'm concerned that the gosus will initially not dominate as much in both games not because of SC2's game design but because they may be forced to practice both games at once. Perhaps the game design might come in to limit their abilities later if they play full time, but I'm afraid that the players will be stretched too thin and will do poorly in both games at once. Like, a Bisu doing 50% BW and 50% SC2 may easily get sniped in a match by someone who does 100% BW or 100% SC2. I'm afraid of this. I'm also afraid that match quality, in both games, will be pretty bad. The novelty of watching BW pros playing against each other in SC2 might wear off if they consistently play at only a high-masters level due to practicing both games at once. If that happens, I might be more entertained watching the cutting-edge of the SC2 metagame in GSL rather than watch lower-level matches played by part-time players in the hybrid Proleague. And then the hybrid pros will be more vulnerable to less-skilled players who play BW full-time. Playing at a professional level is already a tightrope act as is, and Team 8's poor performance shows how even the most subtle of changes can have significant negative effects to performance. tbh, I would rather see Jaedong either be good at BW or good at SC2 rather than see him be mediocre at both. Have you seen the foreign BW scene? They are not as good but that is a beauty in IT SELF. All the esoteric plays and unpredictable follow ups, foreign bw scene is amazing because of that, some of my greatest experiences have been watching foreign tourneys. The korean scene, to be honest, is slightly formulaic in comparison I agree, and this is why most've my tournaments have had weird map pools or stipulations (I'm thinking of having a Zerg-only tournament, and banning Spires). Sloppy play is fun, too. BTW, does your plan to host a sc2-to-BW map conversion tournament still stand? I really want to see that :D I was waiting for some more good map conversions to come out, but I think if I did that now all the BW fans would get mad On April 06 2012 21:06 maybenexttime wrote:On April 06 2012 20:52 cuppatea wrote:On April 06 2012 20:35 maybenexttime wrote:On April 06 2012 20:16 MrCon wrote:
Perhaps it'll be better than expected. Sc2 fans will discover broodwar, broodwar fans will discover that sc2 can also produce good and exciting games. It could bring a new influx of fans in both scenes. How can BW players discover SC2? The fact that we don't like it nearly as fun as BW and find it boring to watch is not a problem of not enough exposure. The thing is, the "we" you refer to is just a small, hardcore minority that remains after the foreign BW scene has, on the whole, embraced SC2. There are less people viewing Pro League games on here now than there were when I first joined the site, even though the user-base has increased tenfold. You guys act like Blizzard has failed because they haven't satisfied the 1k people watching Pro League games, but I would argue they succeeded because they have satisfied the 100k who watched the IEM finals. I'm not talking about just the foreign BW community... And in case you didn't notice, the SC2 forum is riddled with topics regarding SC2's numerous flaws. The majority of which are fixed by 6m1hyg. It's a completely different, and much better, game on those maps. Except for the lack of micro (and I don't mean spamming spells but rather Marines vs Banelings kind of thing) and the lack of space controlling units. It's not that you CAN'T micro in SC2, it's that it doesn't matter because you've got 200 supply and 2,000/2,000 in the bank, so micro is never worth the effort. In small engagements, there actually is decent to good micro, as ForGG made a name for himself in SC2 proving. http://www.justin.tv/esvision/b/297427406 6m1hyg leads to much smaller armies, with much more incentive to break up into raiding parties. With smaller armies, more micro is renwarded = more micro is seen. The lack of space controlling units...Tanks are still good, a lot of Zergs are realizing that spine crawlers fill the space control role quite well. I guess Protoss has Sentries in the early game and Mothership in late and not really much in midgame, but they kind of didn't in BW either. I thought unit pathing was the reason that people "don't micro"? And the lack of space controlling unit was also due the unit pathing since they would be plain OP when everything clumps automatically. e.g. Siege Tank - heavily nerfed, High Templar - heavily nerfed, Reaver - out of the game Lurker - out of the game ... TBH I'm curious to see how 6m1g would fix all those things people are complaining about.. + Show Spoiler +
Mining AI - twice the amount of workers per resource node needed to saturate a base, leading to less bases and less food count for army.
Unit pathing - units clump too easily, splash were nerfed across the board. Encourage keeping everything in a ball to maximize DPS; units die too quickly...
Unit design:
250mm Strike Cannons, Seeker Missile, etc. - expensive spells that are either hit/miss (and usually miss)
EMP, Snipe, FF, FG, etc. - not quite expensive spells that have no recourse for the opponent once casted
I haven't played much BW, but how was high templar heavily nerfed? Against Terran it is very, very strong (partly because units clump up a lot), and practically impossible to micro against. And Xiphos, in TvZ for instance there are many, many multiprolonged attacks/harasses. Not so much in the other matchups unfortunately.
Storm in BW dealt more damage but over a longer period of time (and it was not as piss easy to cast). You hit the nail right on the head - the very problem with Storm in SC2 is the fact that you practically can't micro against it. Either your units die nearly instantly or they're too buff for you to bother anyway.
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There are so many easy fixes for SC2 micro, yet blizzard refuses to implement any of them. I can understand their reluctance a year ago when they didn't want to the balance they worked hard on achieving, but now that HotS is on the horizon and will reset the balance anyway, can't they entertain the idea of fixing the game with something beyond simple stats alteration?
I feel like a large part of blizz's reluctance can be attributed to the mantra of sc2 fans that never watched/liked BW. "Keep BW out of sc2."
Which is extremely infuriating, because sc2 is supposed to be a sequel, and the point of a sequel is to introduce new things while improving on the old, not completely removing the old and treating it like a leper.
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On April 07 2012 00:57 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +There are so many easy fixes for SC2 micro, yet blizzard refuses to implement any of them. I can understand their reluctance a year ago when they didn't want to the balance they worked hard on achieving, but now that HotS is on the horizon and will reset the balance anyway, can't they entertain the idea of fixing the game with something beyond simple stats alteration? I feel like a large part of blizz's reluctance can be attributed to the mantra of sc2 fans that never watched/liked BW. "Keep BW out of sc2." Which is extremely infuriating, because sc2 is supposed to be a sequel, and the point of a sequel is to introduce new things while improving on the old, not completely removing the old and treating it like a leper.
Actually if you watch older interviews with Blizzard you will see they wanted to make a game more BW esque, saying how players with superior micro will always win blabla, you will be able to do wonders with units etc, they kinda stopped saying it when game was closer to finishing 
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Fuck this thread, fucking useless rumors spreading, not a single fact, it pollutes the BW forums.
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On April 07 2012 00:57 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +There are so many easy fixes for SC2 micro, yet blizzard refuses to implement any of them. I can understand their reluctance a year ago when they didn't want to the balance they worked hard on achieving, but now that HotS is on the horizon and will reset the balance anyway, can't they entertain the idea of fixing the game with something beyond simple stats alteration? I feel like a large part of blizz's reluctance can be attributed to the mantra of sc2 fans that never watched/liked BW. "Keep BW out of sc2." Which is extremely infuriating, because sc2 is supposed to be a sequel, and the point of a sequel is to introduce new things while improving on the old, not completely removing the old and treating it like a leper.
Oh, those fans are the most annoying. Even in threads like 6m1g which experimentally aim to improve the game, there are still quite a few people who are skeptical just because it's seemingly a BW-esque fix. Ideally, there could be a lot more changes away from BW, but only if those changes are unanimously considered improvements.
But anyways, I think KeSPA is banking on their casual BW audience being satisfied with the hybrid format. Of course, hardcore BW fans and foreign fans will definitely be disappointed since most of them have already tried the game extensively, but I think Blizzard fucked up with their marketing and business model for SC2 in Korea enough so that perhaps it's still possible to present SC2 to the casual Korean BW audience in a fresh way. I think they're hoping that enough of the fans and fangirls of the teams and players will still follow the scene to compensate for any fans of the game against the switch.
If the hordes fangirls still show up to scream for Bisu whenever he curb stomps nerds in SC2, that's still a bit of a win, right? Or at least that's the expectation that KeSPA and OGN and everyone is hoping for.
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On April 07 2012 00:22 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 23:02 maybenexttime wrote:
More reward for micro does not mean more micro. Look at SC2 units. For the most part, they're devoid of any technique associated with them simply because the engine does not allow for that. If someone finds something, it gets patched out. There are units that are the exceptions (pretty much just Marines and Banelings), but for the most part, the BW-esque micro (i.e. various techniques that require you to learn and practice their execution) is not there. There's some WC3-like micro, that relies on spell casting, but it's still a far cry from BW. ;;
Just compare SC2 units with their BW counterparts. It's clear that the BW ones allow for more micro. It's especially evident in units that are seemingly similar, like Mutas or Tanks. I understand and agree with your point, but most people will probably just see it as bias or nostalgia. People that never watched BW and are inherently biased towards sc2 will just see your post as 'but the micro in bw was cooler and harder and thats that.' A large part of what made spell-micro moments exciting in BW is how difficult spellcasting was in that game. Viewers knew that what they were watching was hard to achieve, and they enjoyed watching progamers overcome the hurdle of the AI and UI to force the units to their will. Nowadays sc2 fans despise AI/UI limitations, and as such the only aspect of spellcasting that is skillfull anymore is accuracy and your ability to predict unit movement. For example, imagine jangbi storms. would such storms be an amazing, jaw dropping, unique event in sc2?
The issue with SC2 is that very few units reward good micro. You have MMM, Blink Stalker, and maybe ling/bling, that's it.
Shuttle/reaver, mutalisk micro, vulture micro, drone micro, etc., none of which have anything close in resemblance in SC2. The lack of overkill also made units like Siege Tank inherently more boring in SC2. Same goes for scourge if it's actually in this game. (and people say corruptor is boring lol)
On April 07 2012 01:01 gds wrote:
Fuck this thread, fucking useless rumors spreading, not a single fact, it pollutes the BW forums.
One the bright side, maybe having SC2 in proleague will put more pressure on Blizzard making SC2 more suitable for competitive play.
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On April 07 2012 01:17 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 00:57 TheAntZ wrote:There are so many easy fixes for SC2 micro, yet blizzard refuses to implement any of them. I can understand their reluctance a year ago when they didn't want to the balance they worked hard on achieving, but now that HotS is on the horizon and will reset the balance anyway, can't they entertain the idea of fixing the game with something beyond simple stats alteration? I feel like a large part of blizz's reluctance can be attributed to the mantra of sc2 fans that never watched/liked BW. "Keep BW out of sc2." Which is extremely infuriating, because sc2 is supposed to be a sequel, and the point of a sequel is to introduce new things while improving on the old, not completely removing the old and treating it like a leper. Oh, those fans are the most annoying. Even in threads like 6m1g which experimentally aim to improve the game, there are still quite a few people who are skeptical just because it's seemingly a BW-esque fix. Ideally, there could be a lot more changes away from BW, but only if those changes are unanimously considered improvements. But anyways, I think KeSPA is banking on their casual BW audience being satisfied with the hybrid format. Of course, hardcore BW fans and foreign fans will definitely be disappointed since most of them have already tried the game extensively, but I think Blizzard fucked up with their marketing and business model for SC2 in Korea enough so that perhaps it's still possible to present SC2 to the casual Korean BW audience in a fresh way. I think they're hoping that enough of the fans and fangirls of the teams and players will still follow the scene to compensate for any fans of the game against the switch. If the hordes fangirls still show up to scream for Bisu whenever he curb stomps nerds in SC2, that's still a bit of a win, right? Or at least that's the expectation that KeSPA and OGN and everyone is hoping for.
Still it's a huge gamble that fan girls will still be cheering for their players if they make a complete switch to sc2 and I don't think relying on fangirls only to make part of the numbers to show support is enough . Loyal fans who are there to watch the game it self also is what makes the scene alive . I am definitely sure that some spectators do enjoy the game as it is rather than being there just to see Bisu and *insert here handsome face* .
Looks like one fan girl will be disappointed if JD switches to sc2 ... Poor janine
Although I work pretty much with and around StarCraft 2, I could never find any love or hype like I have for Broodwar. I am afraid if Jaedong switches, that my little already half-dead Fangirl heart will completly die ^^"
http://jaedongfangirl.blogspot.com/2012/04/8th-team-going-for-sc2.html
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On April 07 2012 01:00 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 00:57 TheAntZ wrote:There are so many easy fixes for SC2 micro, yet blizzard refuses to implement any of them. I can understand their reluctance a year ago when they didn't want to the balance they worked hard on achieving, but now that HotS is on the horizon and will reset the balance anyway, can't they entertain the idea of fixing the game with something beyond simple stats alteration? I feel like a large part of blizz's reluctance can be attributed to the mantra of sc2 fans that never watched/liked BW. "Keep BW out of sc2." Which is extremely infuriating, because sc2 is supposed to be a sequel, and the point of a sequel is to introduce new things while improving on the old, not completely removing the old and treating it like a leper. Actually if you watch older interviews with Blizzard you will see they wanted to make a game more BW esque, saying how players with superior micro will always win blabla, you will be able to do wonders with units etc, they kinda stopped saying it when game was closer to finishing
And in the TL(?) interview with Dustin Browder from Blizzcon or something he said that sc2 is a new game and if you want BW you can still play BW. What a fucking horrible attitude to have.
I saw that someone mentioned multipronged attacks. The reason you don't see that other than in TvZ (drops and counter attacks) is because it doesn't reward you. Protoss is the perfect example of a failure of race design. If you are splitting up your army you are only hurting yourself no matter how good of a multitasker you are because the RACE is DESIGNED to be effective when you have everything clumped up together (the Protoss deathball) or else your army is shit. This is why every Protoss matchup sucks to watch because of the horrible design and nothing can save it other than a complete re-design. Not only because of the deathball thing but warpgates is bad game mechanic and the race is just to "slow". Harass possibilities (other than blink stalkers) that can reward players with good multitasking and micro is lacking too. I think the avarage EAPM of Protoss pro's is like max _140_ because there is nothing you do as a protoss player, no joke. I think MC and Puzzle are the tosses with the highest overall APM and they have at least 200 spam apm because there is nothing else for them to spend that apm on. -_-
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EPT
