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Flash's PvT problem - Page 5

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Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-20 21:54:34
March 20 2012 21:53 GMT
#81
On March 21 2012 03:26 Fenrax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2012 19:51 Caihead wrote:
On March 20 2012 17:43 Fenrax wrote:
On March 20 2012 16:49 Caihead wrote:
On March 20 2012 15:27 Fenrax wrote:
On March 20 2012 15:12 Caihead wrote:
On March 20 2012 15:02 baubo wrote:
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote:
Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).


The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.


3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.


But if the 2 base push for Tosses doesn't work they will take a 3rd and even a fourth from time to time after they did their damage and transition into a late game. Terrans literally NEVER take a fourth these days, no matter what, absolutelely no matter. It is so odd. Their SCVs just stop mining when main and natural are mined out.


Yes, the reasoning is of the points that I highlighted. A toss in PvZ can take a 3rd and fourth while having its army to defend key points between the nat and 3rd / fourth and at the same time ensure the zerg isn't completely unharassed because of drops that can do great damage in a very short time (storm drop or reaver drop takes ~10 pop and while expensive can react fast enough to return to the main army if the zerg engages). The terran can't do that, if he wants to deny economy it's half of his army moving out, unless the protoss is careless and allows the terran the ability to micro vultures in the mineral line which ofcourse does happen and good terrans capitalize on those mistakes but the terran can't always depend on the opponent making a mistake. If the terran commits to taking a fourth it means that he has to settle on turtling on half the map and starve the protoss out or lose and that's literally it since the protoss is going to go unharassed and have more expansions.


Yeah, but II don't believe that there is really no alternative. No race (except for Zerg in ZvZ but ZvZ is almost a different game) in any matchup is a stale and predictable as Terrans in TvP. In PvT you have Carriers, Mass Gateway only or Arbiters. Even in TvT there are usually Tanks but also Mass Wraiths, Mass Vultures or Dropship play. It is just TvP where one side exactly knows what the other side will do, no exceptions so far and that can't be good.
I don't have the answers but I wonder about a few options. Do Terrans really have to produce all these Vultures and hope to get lucky with Harrass and mines? Can't they use their extra minerals for a fourth, wall it up with Depots and mine and Turret it up? At least on some maps?
To me it just feels like that 3 base push while incredibly strong is overused and Tosses won't lose to it often enough anymore because they can tailor their midgame exclusively for that one strategy.


I've tabulated it, here's flash's 2007 spread sheet.
http://i.imgur.com/IrX3x.png
Even back then it was obvious that the terran mentality had to be safe factory expand into game end before late game or just super aggression early game. I could back it up with recent data, but yea look at the diversity of openings of TvP vs say TvZ (biomech 2 base push falls under 2 base all in in this spreadsheet). It's not so much stale as it has been thoroughly figured out, it's just much more advantageous for terrans to push out and end the game on 3 base or 2 base.

If yall want me to post more spreadsheets of TBLS stats etc i update it in my TBLS thread.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320183



Imo the problem is that it doesn't seem to work currently. Tosses destroy the 3 base doom push left and right unless the T leaves the early game with a substantial advantage or is just a better player. And Flash seems to know it, the history of games vs. good players this season shows it. In his first win vs. Horang2 he completely ouplayed him with Vultures in the early game but you can't always rely on that. After that he 14CCed Stork, Bunker rushed Best, lost a straight up game vs. Horang2 and now now 4-Raxed him.


Ye I know, I have recent data too, the trends were this way in 2007 even when protoss' had really bad reaver / shuttle micro, didn't punish upgrade timings of mech (back then flash got away with 3 CC / double armory / starport / science facility off =< 4 factories all the times, you can imagine how small his actual army is), and didn't expand nearly as fast as they do against terran now. Nowadays flash cuts alot more corners economically just to be competitive but it still revolves around early game aggression like you said. TvP is very figured out and I'm not sure if there is going to be any deviation to mid-late game strategy that can come at this point, scary is the day when protoss figures out how to reliably defend against terran 1/2 base all in's because then all the terran has left in its arsenal then is 3 base doom push into turtling on half the map.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
Nazza
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Australia1654 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-21 11:04:37
March 21 2012 11:04 GMT
#82
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
No one ever remembers second place, eh? eh? GIVE ME COMMAND
OniGami
Profile Joined December 2011
Japan140 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-21 12:52:21
March 21 2012 12:49 GMT
#83
On March 20 2012 22:39 buldermar wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Thank you OP for the entertaining meme!

Firstly, one should be cautious about comparing games - in particular games just prior to the surgery with the ones in this SPL. I recall flash saying something that implicitly suggested a lack of motivation/desire of winning against JangBi in an interview by TossGirl (e.g. he wanted to get the surgery done asap). I don't think it's absurd to suggest that choice of strategies in some of his last games before the surgery could have been influenced by the recurrent physical pain in his wrist.

Speaking of only postsurgery games, 3 consecutive losses against protoss players are not enough to be statistically significant. This means that the simplest explanation "coincidence" also easily could be the most accurate one. Keeping this in mind, we can now look into each of the games he lost.

Versus Dear
Flash vc Dear

Flash opens with 1rax CC, Dear opens with 1gate core w/ range into nexus. These are to my knowledge fairly balanced openings giving no player a significant BO advantage.

6:12 Flash manages to scout a robotics facility with a hidden scv in Dear's main.

7:10 The observer shows a hidden robotics supportbay placed at the back of Dear's natural near the nexus, and an observatory at the front of the natural.

7:46 Flash starts constructing an engineering bay around the time his academy is up so that he can scan for information around the time the engineering bay is up. With this information, he can decide on whether or not he should make turrets.

8:12 The first scan is placed in the middle of Dear's main. Since Dear smartly placed his shuttle at his natural instead of having it hanging over the robotics facility, Flash a) does not scout a robotics supportbay, b) sees no shuttle waiting for a reaver.

8:26 Flash scans top left of Dear's base looking for hidden tech, but only sees a pylon.

8:48 Shortly after having cancelled the building turrets, having seen no signs of a reaverbuild, Flash uses 4 vultures to scout Dear's newly built 3rd, contributing to Flash's conclusion: Dear is apperently going for an economical opening.

9:05 To Flash's surprise, a shuttle shows up. Seing this, Flash immediately starts turrets again.

9:08 Dear gets off a nice shot in the scv line.

9:17 Another nice shot.

9:33 Perhaps the most deciding shot of the game, killing a lot of scvs.

10:40 Flash tries to secure 3rd, knowing that Dear already got his 3rd up. Dear hits just before a defensive turret is up with 2 shuttles and his army (argueably, not much would have changed had the turret finished before). Flash loses his army and essentially the game.


Summary:
1) Dear kept shuttle at natural, hoping for scan in main (happened)
2) Dear kept robotics supportbay at natural, hoping for lack of scan/scout here (happened)
3) Dear took a 3rd at what would be the normal timing for a normal non-reaver opening, hoping for flash to scout this (happened)
4) Not a single reavershot missed/bugged.

Based on obtained information, it "could" be correct to cancel the turrets. A delayed or quicker scan, or a scan at a different location, would possibly have provided different information. It remains unknown if locations for scan and timings for scan were arbitrary/intentionally randomized, or if Dear accounted for this. On that same token, it remains unknown if Flash scouted suboptimally (aside from the perhaps just unfortunate timings and locations for scans). Thus, it remains unknown whether Flash actually made any noticeable mistakes (let me know if I missed any) aside from the mistake of being unlucky.

I think it is fair to claim that Dear was at least a bit lucky this game, as is claiming that he played it smartly. He had huge hits with his reaver shots, Flash scouted and scanned at the ideal time and place from Dear's perspective. Reversibly, it would be unfair to claim that Flash had much luck. Consequently, the distribution of fortune this game favored Dear, which, in conjunction with the tricky plays, won him the game.

Versus StarDust
Flash vs StarDust

Flash opens with a proxy rax, StarDust opens with a gateway.

4:19 StarDust sees two marines with his scouting probe, allowing him to expect a hidden bunker.

4:30 Expecting (correctly) the hidden bunker, StarDust pull probes to his natural to prevent it from finishing. Losing 4 probes and mining time, he manages to kill a finished bunker. Flash brought 3 scv's of his own to support his marines.

5:20 Upon seing the first dragoon, Flash opts to return to his main. The game settles at what looks to be a normal one with both players taking their natural expansion.

8:00 Flash scouts a building nexus at StarDust's natural with a floating rax.

9:00 StarDust decides to cheese, proxying a robotics facility and 3 gateways instead of taking 3rd, whilst Flash takes his inbase mineral only 3rd. Since Flash opted to skip academy and just get turrets blindly, he has no way of scouting the lack of buildings in StarDust's main. Furthermore, he flew his rax to the north, scouting no proxied buildings in the process. Using the a shuttle to transport units to Flash's 3rd and later for a reaver, StarDust wins the game with his 2 base play.

Summary:
1) StarDust (perhaps intentionally) scouted marines in time to stop the bunkerrush without losing anything aside from miningtime and 4 probes.
2) Flash skips academy, lacking scans that could potentially have revealed a lack of gateways in the main of StarDust.
3) StarDust proxied his buildings before scouting the 3rd of Flash, blindly hoping for Flash to opt for a quick 3rd instead of a 2base timing push. (happened)
4) Contrary to the game against Dear, Flash opted to do a 1fact into 3rd instead of 2fact into 3rd, lacking vultures to scout with as a result.
5) Flash scouted no proxied buildings with his floating rax in the middle of the map, decreasing the odds of StarDust having proxied any (from Flash's perspective).

Similar to the game against Dear, Flash scouted all the wrong things and thus made unfortunate decisions. For instance, had the floating rax scouted main instead of natural, Flash would have scouted the lack of gateways. Or had he opted for 2fact into 3rd, vultures might have scouted the proxied buildings and Flash would have had more units to defend with. I say this merely to point to the fact that StarDust was having a best case scenario with his proxied buildings, presumeably making them without any certainty of Flash not doing one or more of: a 2base push, going 2fact into 3rd, scouting them with the floating rax, scouting lack of gateways in main with the floating rax, getting academy for scans.

Versus Horang2
Flash vs Horang2

Flash does a conservative and safe 1rax gas 1fact opening while scouting whilst Horang2 skips any probescouting, doing a normal 1gate core opening, relying on his dragoon to scout. Maybe the map is bad for proxy rax or perhaps Horang2 had a bit of luck having Flash do a conservative opening.

8:35 Perhaps in hopes of Horang2 having taken an early 3rd or having teched to something beside observers, Flash decides to push with a handful of marines, a few vultures with mines and 3 tanks. However, Horang2 went for a standard 3 gate and thus managed to defend without too many losses.

15:35 Horang2 goes for a huge 13gate arbiter push, hitting Flash just before vessels are out. Flash loses his entire army, but eventually manages to push Horang2 back.

18:40 Horang2 goes for another big push. This time, Flash has 2 vessels out. In anticipation of recalls in main or natural, Flash has one vessel at each of these locations. However, unfortunately for flash, Horang2 uses his arbiter to support his army, making a huge recall on top of the army of Flash as a result hereof. It should be noted, though, that Flash was behind at this point and most likely would have lost the game either way.

Summary:
1) Flash takes a slight BO disadvantage, doing a 1fact into CC opening while scouting against a blind core opening.
2) Flash opts to do a push from 2 bases in hopes of Horang2 doing something nonstandard.

This seems like the most interresting game of the 3 games to me. In this game, it Horang2 did not seem to win mostly by virtue of luck. Obviously, he had a slight lead neglecting to scout with a probe while being up against the conservative opening of Flash, but is that really significant enough to explain the outcome of the game? Flash did do an unsuccesful 2base push, but did it really put him behind that much? Horang2 also did stay on 1 forge, which is suboptimal had his 13gate push not worked, but it doesn't seem that decisive either. Finally, he did push just before the first vessel of Flash, but nothing prevents Flash from scanning arbiter timing and prepare accordingly, getting the vessel out in time. Did Flash make any significant mistakes or was he really unlucky at any point in this game?

Dude seriously you can post this as a separate thread! Thanks for this!

物の哀れ
Djabanete
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States2786 Posts
March 21 2012 14:11 GMT
#84
On March 20 2012 22:39 buldermar wrote:
[snip]

Thanks for the thorough analysis. I haven't rewatched Flash vs M18M, but I seem to recall that M18M's choice to proxy everything into the middle was based on getting a shuttle/zealot into Flash's main and seeing a third CC being built there, no?

As for Flash vs Horang Episode 1, I believe that Flash's push getting dismantled left Horang2 rather far ahead --- he said as much in his interview. (This is in response to you asking whether Flash made any big mistakes in that game.) Beyond that, Flash made the error of clumping his tanks too much, allowing for a million-dollar stasis; and having the vessels patrolling the recall routes turned out in hindsight to be a mistake, but there was no way of knowing.

Flash usually adapts to losses extremely well. He can be stubborn sometimes (14CC), but once he decides to change things up, he becomes unbeatable and stays that way for a while. Knowing this, I'm more confident than ever that after this short losing streak he will be ready to beat Best/Bisu/Khantosses.
May the BeSt man win.
LatsyrC
Profile Joined November 2011
Haiti76 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-21 15:14:38
March 21 2012 15:13 GMT
#85
haha nice
can some one please link me to those games on youtube?
SyT3Kro
BlazeFury01
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1460 Posts
March 21 2012 15:28 GMT
#86
On March 21 2012 23:11 Djabanete wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2012 22:39 buldermar wrote:
[snip]

As for Flash vs Horang Episode 1, I believe that Flash's push getting dismantled left Horang2 rather far ahead --- he said as much in his interview.


Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.

Flashes problem occured when he tried to make a fast third base without having the defense to do it.

If you notice, Horang2 gets his 3rd expansion far after flash does. While flash was building his third base, Horang2 was investing all of his resources into units to prevent flash from getting a fast third base.

Horang2 then delayed flashes third base long enough for him to secure his own third at the same time thus putting Horang2 far ahead because he had the bigger army size (from building a late third & focusing those resources on units).

Flash scouted arbiter and because of this he wanted to get out faster science vessel to deal with it. Having his expansion delayed ruined the science vessel timing because he wasn't able to get that third gas as fast. That third gas was critical to Flashes strategy because it would have allowed him to throw down more factory while building siege tank and science vessel. Because Flash didn't get his third base as early as he wanted to he wasn't able to do all at once and it forced him to stay on five factory and one starport (not giving him that unit support he needed).

Horang2 knows that Flashes quick third strategy involves a lot of tank with a minimal vulture count. That's why he massed Zealots toward the end. In the end, Flash ended up getting broken.
Taekwon
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8155 Posts
March 21 2012 15:36 GMT
#87
Effing LOL!
▲ ▲ ▲
reincremate
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
China2216 Posts
March 21 2012 18:34 GMT
#88
CJ only lost because they didn't have Hero troll as Protoss.
gds
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Iceland1391 Posts
March 21 2012 18:38 GMT
#89
To tvp specialists: can we consider the strategy used by flash against horang2 day3 as an all-in or would he be able to recover from it if he hadn't killed horang2 with that initial push?
Djabanete
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States2786 Posts
March 21 2012 19:25 GMT
#90
On March 22 2012 03:38 gds wrote:
To tvp specialists: can we consider the strategy used by flash against horang2 day3 as an all-in or would he be able to recover from it if he hadn't killed horang2 with that initial push?

If the first push fails, the protoss has time to accumulate speed zealots, high templar, and reavers, which make life really difficult for the bio terran. (You saw how a single reaver almost saved Horang2.) So the idea is to win in one push.

Nice bio game
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/9269_fOrGG_vs_Kal/vod

May the BeSt man win.
zlosynus
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Czech Republic339 Posts
March 21 2012 21:29 GMT
#91
On March 22 2012 03:38 gds wrote:
To tvp specialists: can we consider the strategy used by flash against horang2 day3 as an all-in or would he be able to recover from it if he hadn't killed horang2 with that initial push?


And I believe horang2 almost had that game, if he would avoid a few mistakes:
1) when he sniped the first tank, he should back off and not to lose almost all dragons there
2) he mismicroed dragons there
But his reaver micro was great and almost saved him there.
Gara
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada435 Posts
March 21 2012 22:25 GMT
#92
On March 20 2012 22:39 buldermar wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Thank you OP for the entertaining meme!

Firstly, one should be cautious about comparing games - in particular games just prior to the surgery with the ones in this SPL. I recall flash saying something that implicitly suggested a lack of motivation/desire of winning against JangBi in an interview by TossGirl (e.g. he wanted to get the surgery done asap). I don't think it's absurd to suggest that choice of strategies in some of his last games before the surgery could have been influenced by the recurrent physical pain in his wrist.

Speaking of only postsurgery games, 3 consecutive losses against protoss players are not enough to be statistically significant. This means that the simplest explanation "coincidence" also easily could be the most accurate one. Keeping this in mind, we can now look into each of the games he lost.

Versus Dear
Flash vc Dear

Flash opens with 1rax CC, Dear opens with 1gate core w/ range into nexus. These are to my knowledge fairly balanced openings giving no player a significant BO advantage.

6:12 Flash manages to scout a robotics facility with a hidden scv in Dear's main.

7:10 The observer shows a hidden robotics supportbay placed at the back of Dear's natural near the nexus, and an observatory at the front of the natural.

7:46 Flash starts constructing an engineering bay around the time his academy is up so that he can scan for information around the time the engineering bay is up. With this information, he can decide on whether or not he should make turrets.

8:12 The first scan is placed in the middle of Dear's main. Since Dear smartly placed his shuttle at his natural instead of having it hanging over the robotics facility, Flash a) does not scout a robotics supportbay, b) sees no shuttle waiting for a reaver.

8:26 Flash scans top left of Dear's base looking for hidden tech, but only sees a pylon.

8:48 Shortly after having cancelled the building turrets, having seen no signs of a reaverbuild, Flash uses 4 vultures to scout Dear's newly built 3rd, contributing to Flash's conclusion: Dear is apperently going for an economical opening.

9:05 To Flash's surprise, a shuttle shows up. Seing this, Flash immediately starts turrets again.

9:08 Dear gets off a nice shot in the scv line.

9:17 Another nice shot.

9:33 Perhaps the most deciding shot of the game, killing a lot of scvs.

10:40 Flash tries to secure 3rd, knowing that Dear already got his 3rd up. Dear hits just before a defensive turret is up with 2 shuttles and his army (argueably, not much would have changed had the turret finished before). Flash loses his army and essentially the game.


Summary:
1) Dear kept shuttle at natural, hoping for scan in main (happened)
2) Dear kept robotics supportbay at natural, hoping for lack of scan/scout here (happened)
3) Dear took a 3rd at what would be the normal timing for a normal non-reaver opening, hoping for flash to scout this (happened)
4) Not a single reavershot missed/bugged.

Based on obtained information, it "could" be correct to cancel the turrets. A delayed or quicker scan, or a scan at a different location, would possibly have provided different information. It remains unknown if locations for scan and timings for scan were arbitrary/intentionally randomized, or if Dear accounted for this. On that same token, it remains unknown if Flash scouted suboptimally (aside from the perhaps just unfortunate timings and locations for scans). Thus, it remains unknown whether Flash actually made any noticeable mistakes (let me know if I missed any) aside from the mistake of being unlucky.

I think it is fair to claim that Dear was at least a bit lucky this game, as is claiming that he played it smartly. He had huge hits with his reaver shots, Flash scouted and scanned at the ideal time and place from Dear's perspective. Reversibly, it would be unfair to claim that Flash had much luck. Consequently, the distribution of fortune this game favored Dear, which, in conjunction with the tricky plays, won him the game.

Versus StarDust
Flash vs StarDust

Flash opens with a proxy rax, StarDust opens with a gateway.

4:19 StarDust sees two marines with his scouting probe, allowing him to expect a hidden bunker.

4:30 Expecting (correctly) the hidden bunker, StarDust pull probes to his natural to prevent it from finishing. Losing 4 probes and mining time, he manages to kill a finished bunker. Flash brought 3 scv's of his own to support his marines.

5:20 Upon seing the first dragoon, Flash opts to return to his main. The game settles at what looks to be a normal one with both players taking their natural expansion.

8:00 Flash scouts a building nexus at StarDust's natural with a floating rax.

9:00 StarDust decides to cheese, proxying a robotics facility and 3 gateways instead of taking 3rd, whilst Flash takes his inbase mineral only 3rd. Since Flash opted to skip academy and just get turrets blindly, he has no way of scouting the lack of buildings in StarDust's main. Furthermore, he flew his rax to the north, scouting no proxied buildings in the process. Using the a shuttle to transport units to Flash's 3rd and later for a reaver, StarDust wins the game with his 2 base play.

Summary:
1) StarDust (perhaps intentionally) scouted marines in time to stop the bunkerrush without losing anything aside from miningtime and 4 probes.
2) Flash skips academy, lacking scans that could potentially have revealed a lack of gateways in the main of StarDust.
3) StarDust proxied his buildings before scouting the 3rd of Flash, blindly hoping for Flash to opt for a quick 3rd instead of a 2base timing push. (happened)
4) Contrary to the game against Dear, Flash opted to do a 1fact into 3rd instead of 2fact into 3rd, lacking vultures to scout with as a result.
5) Flash scouted no proxied buildings with his floating rax in the middle of the map, decreasing the odds of StarDust having proxied any (from Flash's perspective).

Similar to the game against Dear, Flash scouted all the wrong things and thus made unfortunate decisions. For instance, had the floating rax scouted main instead of natural, Flash would have scouted the lack of gateways. Or had he opted for 2fact into 3rd, vultures might have scouted the proxied buildings and Flash would have had more units to defend with. I say this merely to point to the fact that StarDust was having a best case scenario with his proxied buildings, presumeably making them without any certainty of Flash not doing one or more of: a 2base push, going 2fact into 3rd, scouting them with the floating rax, scouting lack of gateways in main with the floating rax, getting academy for scans.

Versus Horang2
Flash vs Horang2

Flash does a conservative and safe 1rax gas 1fact opening while scouting whilst Horang2 skips any probescouting, doing a normal 1gate core opening, relying on his dragoon to scout. Maybe the map is bad for proxy rax or perhaps Horang2 had a bit of luck having Flash do a conservative opening.

8:35 Perhaps in hopes of Horang2 having taken an early 3rd or having teched to something beside observers, Flash decides to push with a handful of marines, a few vultures with mines and 3 tanks. However, Horang2 went for a standard 3 gate and thus managed to defend without too many losses.

15:35 Horang2 goes for a huge 13gate arbiter push, hitting Flash just before vessels are out. Flash loses his entire army, but eventually manages to push Horang2 back.

18:40 Horang2 goes for another big push. This time, Flash has 2 vessels out. In anticipation of recalls in main or natural, Flash has one vessel at each of these locations. However, unfortunately for flash, Horang2 uses his arbiter to support his army, making a huge recall on top of the army of Flash as a result hereof. It should be noted, though, that Flash was behind at this point and most likely would have lost the game either way.

Summary:
1) Flash takes a slight BO disadvantage, doing a 1fact into CC opening while scouting against a blind core opening.
2) Flash opts to do a push from 2 bases in hopes of Horang2 doing something nonstandard.

This seems like the most interresting game of the 3 games to me. In this game, it Horang2 did not seem to win mostly by virtue of luck. Obviously, he had a slight lead neglecting to scout with a probe while being up against the conservative opening of Flash, but is that really significant enough to explain the outcome of the game? Flash did do an unsuccesful 2base push, but did it really put him behind that much? Horang2 also did stay on 1 forge, which is suboptimal had his 13gate push not worked, but it doesn't seem that decisive either. Finally, he did push just before the first vessel of Flash, but nothing prevents Flash from scanning arbiter timing and prepare accordingly, getting the vessel out in time. Did Flash make any significant mistakes or was he really unlucky at any point in this game?


I think you make some fantastic points about the games, and I agree with you that Dear certainly got very lucky, but I'm not as certain about the second game, against M18M (blargh, I refuse to call him Stardust). I don't know if M18M got lucky that Flash didn't make a 2-base push; perhaps M18M was guessing and he got lucky, perhaps he predicted that Flash, confident in his mechanics, wouldn't 2-base push, preferring to play a long game; I think the poor scouting is a much bigger problem.

In my humble opinion, Flash could (and more importantly, should) have scouted the lack of gateways in M18M's main and expected some kind of cheese. Why scout at all if it doesn't tell you anything about what your opponent is doing? He doesn't even need to see the proxies, just the lack of in-base infrastructure, to know that some sort of cheese is incoming. Lack of scouting in the main, combined with the lack of scans or vultures and the blind turrets (with no reasonable basis for building them) seems like somewhat subpar decision making to me. If he had opted to fully scout the main or scan it, he would have been able to defend any push that M18M made.

Ironically, it also seems like Flash's build against M18M was almost tailor-made to beat Dear, as if he was anticipating the same strategy from M18M: bunker rush, scouting the natural, opening 1fact into 3rd, and building blind turrets seems like it would have simply crushed Dear's build, but against M18M it was definitely not the right strategy.
Turbovolver
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Australia2394 Posts
March 21 2012 23:34 GMT
#93
On March 22 2012 00:28 BlazeFury01 wrote:
Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.

Alright you heard it here guys, BlazeFury01 understands that game better than Horang2 himself!

When you use 8 dragoons to kill 3 tanks, 5-6 marines and 3 vults, you are ahead.

Fact.


From there Flash had no army to stop P mass-expanding, took an early expo himself to try to abuse T's imba defense powers, and fell anyway to a sick stasis. Them's the breaks, but the game wasn't equal when that first push was crushed.
The original Bogus fan.
Seeker *
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
Where dat snitch at?37043 Posts
March 21 2012 23:51 GMT
#94
Since Flash won the previous game against CJ Entus (it was another TvP), can we say that he's "kind of" figured it out?
ModeratorPeople ask me, "Seeker, what are you seeking?" My answer? "Sleep, damn it! Always sleep!"
TL+ Member
Zariel
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Australia1285 Posts
March 22 2012 00:06 GMT
#95
On March 20 2012 21:33 ajmbek wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2012 14:34 Zariel wrote:
Flash actually draws a line a defense not where his front is, but about 1 screen back from the front line. He plays a mindgame with his opponent to show his defense is weak goading them to break through but end up taking massive losses once they breach the front.

If you haven't noticed, he tends to place around 3-4 tanks in his front line in which he does not mind losing, then he has like 7-10 tanks behind that line that rapes anything that tries to punch through. Seriously, it's as if he's playing starcraft on a 40" screen which he can see the whole map.


lol
resolution is the same... you dont see more on a bigger monitory



I meant by he can see the map as a whole. Of course i know you still see the same amount of shit whether u have a 15" or a 40" screen.
sup
FuRRyChoBo
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States218 Posts
March 22 2012 00:27 GMT
#96
i've been out of the bw loop recently...when was the game from the OP played? i'd like to watch it if possible.
BlazeFury01
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1460 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-22 00:41:49
March 22 2012 00:30 GMT
#97
On March 22 2012 08:34 Turbovolver wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2012 00:28 BlazeFury01 wrote:
Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.

Alright you heard it here guys, BlazeFury01 understands that game better than Horang2 himself!

When you use 8 dragoons to kill 3 tanks, 5-6 marines and 3 vults, you are ahead.

Fact.


From there Flash had no army to stop P mass-expanding, took an early expo himself to try to abuse T's imba defense powers, and fell anyway to a sick stasis. Them's the breaks, but the game wasn't equal when that first push was crushed.


Hey, I was just giving my point of view of the situation. There is no need for your sarcastic remarks in an attempt to belittle my analysis or because you may disagree with what I vividly explained. However, I will go into more detail about why the game was equalized before FlaSh decided to get a greedy third base.

Horang2 lost about 8 Dragoon and 4 probe from what I counted (possibly more but the camera angle prevented it).

This totals 1,200 and 400 Gas.

FlaSh lost 8 Marine, 2 Tanks (1 Tank got away) and 6 Vulture.

This totals 1,150 minerals and 200 Gas. Thus somewhat equalizing the game.

Horang2 lost 50 more minerals and 200 more Gas then FlaSh did on FlaShes push and also suffered the economic damage (losing probe).

And then the rest was explained in my previous post as to how Horang2 got ahead. Flash wasted 400 on a Command Center that wasn't lifted until Horang2 was able to get his own expansion up. Flash could have added on two more factory (2 with Machine shops, 2 without) with that extra 400 then expanded and that would have given him the defense he needed to prevent Horang2's bust.

Anyway,

Check out the comments under theMshady on my breakdown analysis of why FlaSh lost to dear and then read M18M's winners interview (second link) after he beat FlaSh and M18M mentions exactly what I was talking about in the dear game.



As an SC analyst, I disagree that cancelling the turrets is what killed flash. It contributed to his loss because of his worker count being reduced but it wasn't ultimately why he lost. Flash would have lost this game regardless if he cancelled the turrets or not. Reason being that Dear was already setting up for a bust as soon as flash took his 3rd. Flash was only on 2 Factory and Dears reaver only killed one vulture.In other words, Flash wouldn't have had the defense to defend the bust.

This map has a huge gap between the between the second and third bases. Flash would have needed one to two more factory (3 total. 2 Pumping vulture and 1 Pumping tank) to have comfortably secured defense. The mines would have provided a significant amount of defense. Since Flash started out with 2 factory tank, it reduced his vulture production thus not giving him enough defense to take his third in the first place.


I said this one day before M18M played flaSh.

On March 11 2012 09:39 Hesmyrr wrote:
Victor: Air Force ACE
Q: Therefore you came up with the idea of building gateways on the middle.
(P)StarDust: The tactic was planned in advance. I thought after getting to four gateways by building three in the center, it was possible to win with the usage of reaver and shuttles. At the timing where Flash double expands to the front and back, there are only two factories present. There's a moment when there is only three tanks. I was aiming for that timing but it was delayed due to the bunker rush. Still I proceeded on confident I could break his defenses and that made me win the game.


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319686

In other words, I have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to prove me wrong.
Reuental
Profile Joined July 2009
United States457 Posts
March 22 2012 00:49 GMT
#98
People talking about holding 4 bases as T just make me facepalm. You simply can't hold 4 bases vs a decent toss, recalls and good army movement from the P just crushes it. There is simply no timing window for T to be able to take a 4th unless its to solidify a already large advantage. The only player I have seen in the past have sucsess with it in the past was flash himself, but Ps are starting to realize that you can be really aggresive and punish quite easily any greedy play the T does, the days of Flash taking 3 bases off 2 facts are over.

I think the best solution is for Ts too start mixing it up to a great degree, doing a ton of 4 fact/5 fact pushes, maybe even bringing back some 6 fact pushes from the 2006 era with new infused timings. A lot how like Z handles P, a lot of cheesy all ins to keep the protoss honest so there standard play can be effective. I haven't been following BW as much as I would like to, but I hardly see Terrans doing 4/5 fact pushes anymore, something I would like to see.
I'm a Crab made of men.
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5765 Posts
March 22 2012 01:12 GMT
#99
On March 22 2012 03:38 gds wrote:
To tvp specialists: can we consider the strategy used by flash against horang2 day3 as an all-in or would he be able to recover from it if he hadn't killed horang2 with that initial push?

Bio plays aren't as gimmicky as some people would have you believe just because they're not normal. Your question is kind of vague though because there are many levels of not killing Horang2 with the rush - for instance, he could have killed the nexus but lost the contain. In fact, he could have held the contain for any length of time between not setting it up and Horang2 mining himself out. This is similar to 2 fact rushes that hinge on whether the T can inch forward enough to kill the natural, and also whether the P can clear the contain.

If his push had died before he made it to Horang2's base, Flash really would have been in dire straits because he only had one factory in order to get the medics/barracks out so fast. A bio build having a transition basically means "is there time and money for me to build factories such that he can't just walk over me during the timing before my factories kick in." It's technically possible for Terran units to have fair chances in a biomech lategame (basically the point is the crux of P tech shifts from arbiter/carrier to templar/reaver). But in terms of mechanics the difficulty is similar to playing SK Terran against Jaedong and Effort at the same time. Sniper ridge should be conducive to transitions out of bio supposing you were playing a game that involved such a transition, which is really fun and doesn't confer any disadvantage per se. But the way Flash read the timing he had from Horang2's opening, the speed of his rush, how committed he was (only 1 factory), I can't say he would have been happy if his first push had died. That would entail losing both his positional advantage and his fledgling marine ball, and the three tanks which are quite an investment when they came from only 1 factory. But I've tried to word this so people don't get put off of bio in general, because it's a beautiful thing.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
BlazeFury01
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1460 Posts
March 22 2012 01:13 GMT
#100
On March 22 2012 09:49 Reuental wrote:
People talking about holding 4 bases as T just make me facepalm. You simply can't hold 4 bases vs a decent toss, recalls and good army movement from the P just crushes it. There is simply no timing window for T to be able to take a 4th unless its to solidify a already large advantage. The only player I have seen in the past have sucsess with it in the past was flash himself, but Ps are starting to realize that you can be really aggresive and punish quite easily any greedy play the T does, the days of Flash taking 3 bases off 2 facts are over.

I think the best solution is for Ts too start mixing it up to a great degree, doing a ton of 4 fact/5 fact pushes, maybe even bringing back some 6 fact pushes from the 2006 era with new infused timings. A lot how like Z handles P, a lot of cheesy all ins to keep the protoss honest so there standard play can be effective. I haven't been following BW as much as I would like to, but I hardly see Terrans doing 4/5 fact pushes anymore, something I would like to see.


It is possible to hold 4 bases but only in a split map situation like that FlaSh vs Stats rep on FS.
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