On March 22 2012 18:08 storkfan wrote:This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg.
What are you talking about? The entire last season was dominated by 5-6 base mech plays. You can definitly hold 5-6 bases vs zerg no problem.
On March 22 2012 18:08 storkfan wrote:This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg.
What are you talking about? The entire last season was dominated by 5-6 base mech plays. You can definitly hold 5-6 bases vs zerg no problem.
Yea, because terran still has very viable harassment / economy denying strategies vs zerg in form of m&m/vulture drop / vulture harass / out right denying the base. Harassing vs protoss is unreliable because it depends on the protoss messing up, either not making cannons / not blocking a key choke / not having map presence. Zergs have vaccums while /shortly after a hatchery is morphing where it's defenseless or just can't devote the forces to defend it, protoss' don't have that problem if their secondary gateway hub is rallied there or if they have cannons, both of which are standard protoss play.
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg. Anything more than the 3 safe bases and possibly 4th expansion toward enemy is unrealistic unless terran is already in an advantegous spot (like the slightly imbalanced mech transition build tends to be on current maps).
Same for protoss against zerg. This is why all the 2-3 base timing commitment. Because the faster races have mastered the tactics of abusing immobility of slow race and getting them out of position to destroy far away expansions.
Erm, yea? And I listed the reasons why it's almost impossible. "Reliable" is in quotations for a reason. You have to do it against a faster expanding protoss while having no reliable means of harassment. 3 base doom push is popular because if you don't end the game then you are forced to essentially completely be winging the game where the only strategy is to out resource the opponent by taking half the map, you have to react to every move the protoss makes and hope that the toss doesn't break your line of defense any where. It rarely ever works out, the only good example recently from the top of my head is http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/75270_Bogus_vs_Stats/vod Nearly all standards PvT's end between the 15 - 25 minute mark because of this reason, either the terran wins by early game aggression, 3 base push or dies from the failed push / counter attack. If you read my other comments in this thread I also touch on the fact that all new terran strategies are early game 1-2 base aggression builds that are aimed at gathering a significant enough advantage to either end the game out right or give the terran ability to expand at will.
You said in your original post that "3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game" but now you say that "Nearly all standards PvT's end between the 15 - 25 minute mark because of this reason, either the terran wins by early game aggression, 3 base push or dies from the failed push / counter attack". Isnt that contradictory..?
On March 22 2012 18:08 storkfan wrote:This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg.
What are you talking about? The entire last season was dominated by 5-6 base mech plays. You can definitly hold 5-6 bases vs zerg no problem.
Show me one game where that happens, while zerg is not far behind terran in supply. Because that is what an open game is. Otherwise the mass bases is just insurance policy to finish an already won game and has little bearing on actual optimal tactical developments.
On March 22 2012 20:23 shaftofpleasure wrote: Why aren't zerg stopping mech with Muta/ling play? Valks? they can kill valks with scourge. I really don't get it.
mutas work mid game because both sides are with low upgrades. but in late game 0-0 mutas get owned by even a couple of 3-3 gols. Gol upgrades are just that effective. And 0 attack mutas only do 5 dmg to upg mech so it takes forever to kill stuff, hence limiting the viability of the element of surprise.
On March 22 2012 23:28 storkfan wrote: mutas work mid game because both sides are with low upgrades. but in late game 0-0 mutas get owned by even a couple of 3-3 gols. Gol upgrades are just that effective. And 0 attack mutas only do 5 dmg to upg mech so it takes forever to kill stuff, hence limiting the viability of the element of surprise.
Also Vessel makes them obsolete in the lategame, as stated before
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg. Anything more than the 3 safe bases and possibly 4th expansion toward enemy is unrealistic unless terran is already in an advantegous spot (like the slightly imbalanced mech transition build tends to be on current maps).
Same for protoss against zerg. This is why all the 2-3 base timing commitment. Because the faster races have mastered the tactics of abusing immobility of slow race and getting them out of position to destroy far away expansions.
Erm, yea? And I listed the reasons why it's almost impossible. "Reliable" is in quotations for a reason. You have to do it against a faster expanding protoss while having no reliable means of harassment. 3 base doom push is popular because if you don't end the game then you are forced to essentially completely be winging the game where the only strategy is to out resource the opponent by taking half the map, you have to react to every move the protoss makes and hope that the toss doesn't break your line of defense any where. It rarely ever works out, the only good example recently from the top of my head is http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/75270_Bogus_vs_Stats/vod Nearly all standards PvT's end between the 15 - 25 minute mark because of this reason, either the terran wins by early game aggression, 3 base push or dies from the failed push / counter attack. If you read my other comments in this thread I also touch on the fact that all new terran strategies are early game 1-2 base aggression builds that are aimed at gathering a significant enough advantage to either end the game out right or give the terran ability to expand at will.
You said in your original post that "3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game" but now you say that "Nearly all standards PvT's end between the 15 - 25 minute mark because of this reason, either the terran wins by early game aggression, 3 base push or dies from the failed push / counter attack". Isnt that contradictory..?
On March 22 2012 18:08 storkfan wrote:This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg.
What are you talking about? The entire last season was dominated by 5-6 base mech plays. You can definitly hold 5-6 bases vs zerg no problem.
Show me one game where that happens, while zerg is not far behind terran in supply. Because that is what an open game is. Otherwise the mass bases is just insurance policy to finish an already won game and has little bearing on actual optimal tactical developments.
?? if zerg isn't far behind terran in supply he's actually ahead and probably winning the game
If you haven't noticed Flash fox's a lot. Unlike others he is always thinking many games ahead and I feel like he intentionally plays badly before important games. I always notice Flash does stupid things in proleague and then completely smashes the same opponent in following individual league games.
He skipped turrets and lost against hidden robo 3 games in a row. Against Jangbi he does a 14cc baits the proxy robo and builds twice as many turrets as he needs to and beats him with pure tank marine.
This guy could seriously make millions playing poker T_T
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg. Anything more than the 3 safe bases and possibly 4th expansion toward enemy is unrealistic unless terran is already in an advantegous spot (like the slightly imbalanced mech transition build tends to be on current maps).
Same for protoss against zerg. This is why all the 2-3 base timing commitment. Because the faster races have mastered the tactics of abusing immobility of slow race and getting them out of position to destroy far away expansions.
Erm, yea? And I listed the reasons why it's almost impossible. "Reliable" is in quotations for a reason. You have to do it against a faster expanding protoss while having no reliable means of harassment. 3 base doom push is popular because if you don't end the game then you are forced to essentially completely be winging the game where the only strategy is to out resource the opponent by taking half the map, you have to react to every move the protoss makes and hope that the toss doesn't break your line of defense any where. It rarely ever works out, the only good example recently from the top of my head is http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/75270_Bogus_vs_Stats/vod Nearly all standards PvT's end between the 15 - 25 minute mark because of this reason, either the terran wins by early game aggression, 3 base push or dies from the failed push / counter attack. If you read my other comments in this thread I also touch on the fact that all new terran strategies are early game 1-2 base aggression builds that are aimed at gathering a significant enough advantage to either end the game out right or give the terran ability to expand at will.
You said in your original post that "3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game" but now you say that "Nearly all standards PvT's end between the 15 - 25 minute mark because of this reason, either the terran wins by early game aggression, 3 base push or dies from the failed push / counter attack". Isnt that contradictory..?
On March 22 2012 18:08 storkfan wrote:This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg.
What are you talking about? The entire last season was dominated by 5-6 base mech plays. You can definitly hold 5-6 bases vs zerg no problem.
Show me one game where that happens, while zerg is not far behind terran in supply. Because that is what an open game is. Otherwise the mass bases is just insurance policy to finish an already won game and has little bearing on actual optimal tactical developments.
How is this contradictory? It becomes an uncertainty as to who will win the game from the terran's perspective, he has to capitalize on the protoss' bad play / respond to what ever tech the protoss throws at him, the game becomes a complete guerrilla fight to see who can defend / kill bases. Perfect example of this is :
Sorry if i was not clear about this point, I should have said that if you do not win at that point it becomes an uncertainty what strategies the terran can reliably use to win.
On March 26 2012 14:38 sluggaslamoo wrote: If you haven't noticed Flash fox's a lot. Unlike others he is always thinking many games ahead and I feel like he intentionally plays badly before important games. I always notice Flash does stupid things in proleague and then completely smashes the same opponent in following individual league games.
He skipped turrets and lost against hidden robo 3 games in a row. Against Jangbi he does a 14cc baits the proxy robo and builds twice as many turrets as he needs to and beats him with pure tank marine.
This guy could seriously make millions playing poker T_T
Your level of delusion is seriously off the charts.
On March 26 2012 14:38 sluggaslamoo wrote: If you haven't noticed Flash fox's a lot. Unlike others he is always thinking many games ahead and I feel like he intentionally plays badly before important games. I always notice Flash does stupid things in proleague and then completely smashes the same opponent in following individual league games.
He skipped turrets and lost against hidden robo 3 games in a row. Against Jangbi he does a 14cc baits the proxy robo and builds twice as many turrets as he needs to and beats him with pure tank marine.
This guy could seriously make millions playing poker T_T
Your level of delusion is seriously off the charts.
Now now play nice, the observation is dumb because if a pro gamer throws a game on purpose it's game fixing and illegal, not because the poster is delusional. A player may choose to hid his strategy until the key games but never purposefully play badly.
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg. Anything more than the 3 safe bases and possibly 4th expansion toward enemy is unrealistic unless terran is already in an advantegous spot (like the slightly imbalanced mech transition build tends to be on current maps).
Same for protoss against zerg. This is why all the 2-3 base timing commitment. Because the faster races have mastered the tactics of abusing immobility of slow race and getting them out of position to destroy far away expansions.
Erm, yea? And I listed the reasons why it's almost impossible. "Reliable" is in quotations for a reason. You have to do it against a faster expanding protoss while having no reliable means of harassment. 3 base doom push is popular because if you don't end the game then you are forced to essentially completely be winging the game where the only strategy is to out resource the opponent by taking half the map, you have to react to every move the protoss makes and hope that the toss doesn't break your line of defense any where. It rarely ever works out, the only good example recently from the top of my head is http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/75270_Bogus_vs_Stats/vod Nearly all standards PvT's end between the 15 - 25 minute mark because of this reason, either the terran wins by early game aggression, 3 base push or dies from the failed push / counter attack. If you read my other comments in this thread I also touch on the fact that all new terran strategies are early game 1-2 base aggression builds that are aimed at gathering a significant enough advantage to either end the game out right or give the terran ability to expand at will.
You said in your original post that "3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game" but now you say that "Nearly all standards PvT's end between the 15 - 25 minute mark because of this reason, either the terran wins by early game aggression, 3 base push or dies from the failed push / counter attack". Isnt that contradictory..?
On March 22 2012 18:35 Reuental wrote:
On March 22 2012 18:08 storkfan wrote:This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg.
What are you talking about? The entire last season was dominated by 5-6 base mech plays. You can definitly hold 5-6 bases vs zerg no problem.
Show me one game where that happens, while zerg is not far behind terran in supply. Because that is what an open game is. Otherwise the mass bases is just insurance policy to finish an already won game and has little bearing on actual optimal tactical developments.
?? if zerg isn't far behind terran in supply he's actually ahead and probably winning the game
Flash vs Effort, Canata vs Jaedong, Firebathero vs Action, Roro vs Piano, Zero vs Fantasy during last MSL, Flash vs Zero MSL final game 3... etc etc etc. Also as stated, zerg base satuation as well as pop while teching up is always going to be lower than the terran, if the zerg has more pop than the terran in the early game something is dreadfully wrong because he's completely neglecting tech for an all in or the terran got successfully 5/9 pooled.
On March 26 2012 14:38 sluggaslamoo wrote: If you haven't noticed Flash fox's a lot. Unlike others he is always thinking many games ahead and I feel like he intentionally plays badly before important games. I always notice Flash does stupid things in proleague and then completely smashes the same opponent in following individual league games.
He skipped turrets and lost against hidden robo 3 games in a row. Against Jangbi he does a 14cc baits the proxy robo and builds twice as many turrets as he needs to and beats him with pure tank marine.
This guy could seriously make millions playing poker T_T
Your level of delusion is seriously off the charts.
Now now play nice, the observation is dumb because if a pro gamer throws a game on purpose it's game fixing and illegal, not because the poster is delusional. A player may choose to hid his strategy until the key games but never purposefully play badly.
Maybe I am delusional, but it seriously seems that way. He seems to play badly before key matches start to happen, whether or not hes trying to experiment while hes ahead, and then come up with the perfected build in the end i don't know, but it seems to be a pattern of Flash. I mentioned foxing, I didn't mean to imply throwing games, I meant intentionally showing a weakness that you intend to abuse later on. I don't think Flash intended to lose those games.
Remember when he 14cc'd many games and lost, later on he does the exact same thing and 3:0's the Grand Final. Whether or not this is throwing games or not I don't know, but it seems like foxing to me. Otherwise why would you do a build that has a high rate of losing in the most important matches of your career? (3 times in a row)
Even though throwing games in sports is illegal, foxing happens a lot where mindgames play an essential role.
Every game except possibly a few at the end of a proleague season is important.
When Flash lost a whole bunch of games to 14cc, were people suggesting "oh well, he's just screwing around, it doesn't matter"?
No, even his fans were like WTF FLASH WAT R U DOIN?!
But now you look back and see that he had that rough patch, but is still a good player anyway, and say "maybe it was on purpose".
@ Caihead: I don't think throwing a game is illegal, if there's no money involved. You can't punish someone for only trying 50% because they don't like a certain map, or they feel the opening builds mean they've already lost.
On March 26 2012 15:39 Turbovolver wrote: But this is all confirmation bias.
Every game except possibly a few at the end of a proleague season is important.
When Flash lost a whole bunch of games to 14cc, were people suggesting "oh well, he's just screwing around, it doesn't matter"?
No, even his fans were like WTF FLASH WAT R U DOIN?!
But now you look back and see that he had that rough patch, but is still a good player anyway, and say "maybe it was on purpose".
@ Caihead: I don't think throwing a game is illegal, if there's no money involved. You can't punish someone for only trying 50% because they don't like a certain map, or they feel the opening builds mean they've already lost.
Throwing a game is at least immoral if not illegal though, because the teams / players are corporate representations. If the teams perform badly / don't generate the proper attention for the corporations the sponsors do pull out, and if that was done on purpose then it's very questionable behaviour, if not illegal it would at least lead to management discipline. Obviously it's extremely difficult to track actual media representation / advertising effects and its impact from the point of view of the sponsors, but any professional athlete or player would / should be punished for purposefully throwing a game in a team environment. Players may make tactical decisions like doing an all in or a risky economical build if they feel like they've already lost to regain the advantage because most BW players have salaries that are also based on their performance quotas (win x number of games, contribute to the team's victories in team league at the ace match, so on) beside the base salary.
Foxing is very dubious because you can achieve the same type of effect by saying things in interviews outside of the games (which flash has admitted to doing), without jeopardizing the integrity of your games or leading to people questioning rather you have been throwing the games. This technique would be common during offline matches or practice matches, doing it in a televised match where your personal reputation or salary depends on it is highly unlikely.
The terminator doesn't know how to throw games. His mentality is about winning isn't it? The most I can see happening is that he doesn't use a particular strat. in order to save it for later. At most. That shouldn't mean however that he is throwing the match or anything.
EPT
