On March 20 2012 22:39 buldermar wrote: Thank you OP for the entertaining meme!
Firstly, one should be cautious about comparing games - in particular games just prior to the surgery with the ones in this SPL. I recall flash saying something that implicitly suggested a lack of motivation/desire of winning against JangBi in an interview by TossGirl (e.g. he wanted to get the surgery done asap). I don't think it's absurd to suggest that choice of strategies in some of his last games before the surgery could have been influenced by the recurrent physical pain in his wrist.
Speaking of only postsurgery games, 3 consecutive losses against protoss players are not enough to be statistically significant. This means that the simplest explanation "coincidence" also easily could be the most accurate one. Keeping this in mind, we can now look into each of the games he lost.
Flash opens with 1rax CC, Dear opens with 1gate core w/ range into nexus. These are to my knowledge fairly balanced openings giving no player a significant BO advantage.
6:12 Flash manages to scout a robotics facility with a hidden scv in Dear's main.
7:10 The observer shows a hidden robotics supportbay placed at the back of Dear's natural near the nexus, and an observatory at the front of the natural.
7:46 Flash starts constructing an engineering bay around the time his academy is up so that he can scan for information around the time the engineering bay is up. With this information, he can decide on whether or not he should make turrets.
8:12 The first scan is placed in the middle of Dear's main. Since Dear smartly placed his shuttle at his natural instead of having it hanging over the robotics facility, Flash a) does not scout a robotics supportbay, b) sees no shuttle waiting for a reaver.
8:26 Flash scans top left of Dear's base looking for hidden tech, but only sees a pylon.
8:48 Shortly after having cancelled the building turrets, having seen no signs of a reaverbuild, Flash uses 4 vultures to scout Dear's newly built 3rd, contributing to Flash's conclusion: Dear is apperently going for an economical opening.
9:05 To Flash's surprise, a shuttle shows up. Seing this, Flash immediately starts turrets again.
9:08 Dear gets off a nice shot in the scv line.
9:17 Another nice shot.
9:33 Perhaps the most deciding shot of the game, killing a lot of scvs.
10:40 Flash tries to secure 3rd, knowing that Dear already got his 3rd up. Dear hits just before a defensive turret is up with 2 shuttles and his army (argueably, not much would have changed had the turret finished before). Flash loses his army and essentially the game.
Summary: 1) Dear kept shuttle at natural, hoping for scan in main (happened) 2) Dear kept robotics supportbay at natural, hoping for lack of scan/scout here (happened) 3) Dear took a 3rd at what would be the normal timing for a normal non-reaver opening, hoping for flash to scout this (happened) 4) Not a single reavershot missed/bugged.
Based on obtained information, it "could" be correct to cancel the turrets. A delayed or quicker scan, or a scan at a different location, would possibly have provided different information. It remains unknown if locations for scan and timings for scan were arbitrary/intentionally randomized, or if Dear accounted for this. On that same token, it remains unknown if Flash scouted suboptimally (aside from the perhaps just unfortunate timings and locations for scans). Thus, it remains unknown whether Flash actually made any noticeable mistakes (let me know if I missed any) aside from the mistake of being unlucky.
I think it is fair to claim that Dear was at least a bit lucky this game, as is claiming that he played it smartly. He had huge hits with his reaver shots, Flash scouted and scanned at the ideal time and place from Dear's perspective. Reversibly, it would be unfair to claim that Flash had much luck. Consequently, the distribution of fortune this game favored Dear, which, in conjunction with the tricky plays, won him the game.
Flash opens with a proxy rax, StarDust opens with a gateway.
4:19 StarDust sees two marines with his scouting probe, allowing him to expect a hidden bunker.
4:30 Expecting (correctly) the hidden bunker, StarDust pull probes to his natural to prevent it from finishing. Losing 4 probes and mining time, he manages to kill a finished bunker. Flash brought 3 scv's of his own to support his marines.
5:20 Upon seing the first dragoon, Flash opts to return to his main. The game settles at what looks to be a normal one with both players taking their natural expansion.
8:00 Flash scouts a building nexus at StarDust's natural with a floating rax.
9:00 StarDust decides to cheese, proxying a robotics facility and 3 gateways instead of taking 3rd, whilst Flash takes his inbase mineral only 3rd. Since Flash opted to skip academy and just get turrets blindly, he has no way of scouting the lack of buildings in StarDust's main. Furthermore, he flew his rax to the north, scouting no proxied buildings in the process. Using the a shuttle to transport units to Flash's 3rd and later for a reaver, StarDust wins the game with his 2 base play.
Summary: 1) StarDust (perhaps intentionally) scouted marines in time to stop the bunkerrush without losing anything aside from miningtime and 4 probes. 2) Flash skips academy, lacking scans that could potentially have revealed a lack of gateways in the main of StarDust. 3) StarDust proxied his buildings before scouting the 3rd of Flash, blindly hoping for Flash to opt for a quick 3rd instead of a 2base timing push. (happened) 4) Contrary to the game against Dear, Flash opted to do a 1fact into 3rd instead of 2fact into 3rd, lacking vultures to scout with as a result. 5) Flash scouted no proxied buildings with his floating rax in the middle of the map, decreasing the odds of StarDust having proxied any (from Flash's perspective).
Similar to the game against Dear, Flash scouted all the wrong things and thus made unfortunate decisions. For instance, had the floating rax scouted main instead of natural, Flash would have scouted the lack of gateways. Or had he opted for 2fact into 3rd, vultures might have scouted the proxied buildings and Flash would have had more units to defend with. I say this merely to point to the fact that StarDust was having a best case scenario with his proxied buildings, presumeably making them without any certainty of Flash not doing one or more of: a 2base push, going 2fact into 3rd, scouting them with the floating rax, scouting lack of gateways in main with the floating rax, getting academy for scans.
Flash does a conservative and safe 1rax gas 1fact opening while scouting whilst Horang2 skips any probescouting, doing a normal 1gate core opening, relying on his dragoon to scout. Maybe the map is bad for proxy rax or perhaps Horang2 had a bit of luck having Flash do a conservative opening.
8:35 Perhaps in hopes of Horang2 having taken an early 3rd or having teched to something beside observers, Flash decides to push with a handful of marines, a few vultures with mines and 3 tanks. However, Horang2 went for a standard 3 gate and thus managed to defend without too many losses.
15:35 Horang2 goes for a huge 13gate arbiter push, hitting Flash just before vessels are out. Flash loses his entire army, but eventually manages to push Horang2 back.
18:40 Horang2 goes for another big push. This time, Flash has 2 vessels out. In anticipation of recalls in main or natural, Flash has one vessel at each of these locations. However, unfortunately for flash, Horang2 uses his arbiter to support his army, making a huge recall on top of the army of Flash as a result hereof. It should be noted, though, that Flash was behind at this point and most likely would have lost the game either way.
Summary: 1) Flash takes a slight BO disadvantage, doing a 1fact into CC opening while scouting against a blind core opening. 2) Flash opts to do a push from 2 bases in hopes of Horang2 doing something nonstandard.
This seems like the most interresting game of the 3 games to me. In this game, it Horang2 did not seem to win mostly by virtue of luck. Obviously, he had a slight lead neglecting to scout with a probe while being up against the conservative opening of Flash, but is that really significant enough to explain the outcome of the game? Flash did do an unsuccesful 2base push, but did it really put him behind that much? Horang2 also did stay on 1 forge, which is suboptimal had his 13gate push not worked, but it doesn't seem that decisive either. Finally, he did push just before the first vessel of Flash, but nothing prevents Flash from scanning arbiter timing and prepare accordingly, getting the vessel out in time. Did Flash make any significant mistakes or was he really unlucky at any point in this game?
Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
lol he's just too cocky taking expos with 4 tanks and cancelling turrets in the face of speed shuttle. If he just plays slightly safer and takes it into the mid late game he should be good.
I never understood why Flash has to cut corners that much. His late game is super good tanks to his macro and imba tank positioning. I mean the way he places tanks is so much superior than any other terran. Only his vulture usage is second to Fantasy's.
I never get tired of that game on Fighting Spirit against Stats, where Flash holds every maxed attack with 50 supply of pure tanks chilling in the opposite corner of the map.
Flash actually draws a line a defense not where his front is, but about 1 screen back from the front line. He plays a mindgame with his opponent to show his defense is weak goading them to break through but end up taking massive losses once they breach the front.
If you haven't noticed, he tends to place around 3-4 tanks in his front line in which he does not mind losing, then he has like 7-10 tanks behind that line that rapes anything that tries to punch through. Seriously, it's as if he's playing starcraft on a 40" screen which he can see the whole map.
"So, you played very poorly at the start and almost lost the game." "Yes, i thought i was playing against a Zerg, so i prepared a very specific build. It didn't work." "When did you realize that you were playing against Horang2?" "I realized this when his shuttle dropped a reaver in my SCV line and killed about 20 SCVs." "I noticed that you lifted all of your barracks and decided to go for a complete mech switch after losing SCVs. Was this planned?" "..."
On March 20 2012 14:09 endy wrote: I never understood why Flash has to cut corners that much. His late game is super good tanks to his macro and imba tank positioning. I mean the way he places tanks is so much superior than any other terran. Only his vulture usage is second to Fantasy's.
I never get tired of that game on Fighting Spirit against Stats, where Flash holds every maxed attack with 50 supply of pure tanks chilling in the opposite corner of the map.
which games is this? I would love to see a game between Flash and Stats
I don't think people understand why he takes these risks. Against horang2 he absolutely needed to have that third up and fortified asap. He can't afford to stay on 2 base too long or he'll just get run over by shit like 3 base 12 gate arb tech. To get to his amazing late game he MUST secure a third if he misses the timing to punish the tosses third. If the 2 base push fails (like it did vs horang2) he has to take a risk or simply get worn down. The turret cancelling is just the problem he faces, tosses either go super greedy or super all in vs him. If he throws down turrets vs a super greedy play (like that old game vs snow) he's in a horrible situation. It's just the 2 games he lost were mis-reads due to opponents proxying/hiding buildings.
On March 20 2012 14:09 endy wrote: I never understood why Flash has to cut corners that much. His late game is super good tanks to his macro and imba tank positioning. I mean the way he places tanks is so much superior than any other terran. Only his vulture usage is second to Fantasy's.
I never get tired of that game on Fighting Spirit against Stats, where Flash holds every maxed attack with 50 supply of pure tanks chilling in the opposite corner of the map.
which games is this? I would love to see a game between Flash and Stats
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
But if the 2 base push for Tosses doesn't work they will take a 3rd and even a fourth from time to time after they did their damage and transition into a late game. Terrans literally NEVER take a fourth these days, no matter what, absolutelely no matter. It is so odd. Their SCVs just stop mining when main and natural are mined out.
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
You're wrong. Flash takes risks for a reason. He understands the matchup far better than we do and does his utmost to prepare and win.
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
You're wrong. Flash takes risks for a reason and he understands the matchup far better than we do and he does his utmost to prepare and win.
Yeah, when Flash cuts corners he does it better than anyone and people go "whaaaat? How is his macro so good/how is he 20 supply ahead/how does it make it look so easy?"
But then he cuts it just a liiiiitle too close and loses a game and people are saying that he needs to just play safe. Flash's ability to cut corners and skip on every little thing are what makes him so good. You know who plays safe? Sea.
People also discount the psychological stuff Flash is constantly doing. I remember in an interview he said that he plans his interview answers to manipulate his opponents and tailors them based on who he might play. Nobody wins 15 in a row on skill alone. SC is a lot like poker in that regard.
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
You're wrong. Flash takes risks for a reason and he understands the matchup far better than we do and he does his utmost to prepare and win.
Nevar evar criticize Flash
But on topic, I kinda liked Fantasy's idea (against Jaehoon?) of "Oh, you're going to run over my tank line? I'll destroy two of your bases with drops while I try to manage a draw in the main fight with mines and tank imba."
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
But if the 2 base push for Tosses doesn't work they will take a 3rd and even a fourth from time to time after they did their damage and transition into a late game. Terrans literally NEVER take a fourth these days, no matter what, absolutelely no matter. It is so odd. Their SCVs just stop mining when main and natural are mined out.
Yes, the reasoning is of the points that I highlighted. A toss in PvZ can take a 3rd and fourth while having its army to defend key points between the nat and 3rd / fourth and at the same time ensure the zerg isn't completely unharassed because of drops that can do great damage in a very short time (storm drop or reaver drop takes ~10 pop and while expensive can react fast enough to return to the main army if the zerg engages). The terran can't do that, if he wants to deny economy it's half of his army moving out, unless the protoss is careless and allows the terran the ability to micro vultures in the mineral line which ofcourse does happen and good terrans capitalize on those mistakes but the terran can't always depend on the opponent making a mistake. If the terran commits to taking a fourth it means that he has to settle on turtling on half the map and starve the protoss out or lose and that's literally it since the protoss is going to go unharassed and have more expansions.
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
You're wrong. Flash takes risks for a reason and he understands the matchup far better than we do and he does his utmost to prepare and win.
Nevar evar criticize Flash
But on topic, I kinda liked Fantasy's idea (against Jaehoon?) of "Oh, you're going to run over my tank line? I'll destroy two of your bases with drops while I try to manage a draw in the main fight with mines and tank imba."
That was a really one off phenomenon though. Jaehoon could have literally pulled his probes from the expansion attacked the 2 lone tanks forcing them to unsiege and waited for 2 or 3 zealots to arrive but he just didn't react at all. Serious props to fantasy for pulling it off but it's just not a dependable strategy.
Part of the problem is that PvT has advanced drastically over the last 2 - 3 years where as TvP post mid game has not at all, all the unique strategies for terran involve early-mid game aggression from the terran that either wins or loses the game for them, or push the protoss economically behind enough so that the terran has the ability to expand at will. Look at PvT reaver / shuttle harassment and micro from 2007 then look at it now are completely different animals, same for zealot timing breaks and expansion rate. TvP methodology of pushing and containing with mech hasn't changed at all, alot of the times it looked much better in 2007-2009 because the protoss didn't know how to respond to it. Unless terrans find a reliable way to harass and deny protoss economy mid-late game I don't see this trend changing either.
On March 20 2012 14:39 Scarecrow wrote: I don't think people understand why he takes these risks. Against horang2 he absolutely needed to have that third up and fortified asap. He can't afford to stay on 2 base too long or he'll just get run over by shit like 3 base 12 gate arb tech. To get to his amazing late game he MUST secure a third if he misses the timing to punish the tosses third. If the 2 base push fails (like it did vs horang2) he has to take a risk or simply get worn down. The turret cancelling is just the problem he faces, tosses either go super greedy or super all in vs him. If he throws down turrets vs a super greedy play (like that old game vs snow) he's in a horrible situation. It's just the 2 games he lost were mis-reads due to opponents proxying/hiding buildings.
Yeah but why does he try to kill a super good toss with something lile 14 goons with 3 tanks ten rines and 4 vultures. The worst about that game is that his micro was stellar. But the attack was just a bad idea...
On March 20 2012 14:39 Scarecrow wrote: I don't think people understand why he takes these risks. Against horang2 he absolutely needed to have that third up and fortified asap. He can't afford to stay on 2 base too long or he'll just get run over by shit like 3 base 12 gate arb tech. To get to his amazing late game he MUST secure a third if he misses the timing to punish the tosses third. If the 2 base push fails (like it did vs horang2) he has to take a risk or simply get worn down. The turret cancelling is just the problem he faces, tosses either go super greedy or super all in vs him. If he throws down turrets vs a super greedy play (like that old game vs snow) he's in a horrible situation. It's just the 2 games he lost were mis-reads due to opponents proxying/hiding buildings.
Yeah but why does he try to kill a super good toss with something lile 14 goons with 3 tanks ten rines and 4 vultures. The worst about that game is that his micro was stellar. But the attack was just a bad idea...
i think flash might haev thought that horang already took a 3rd or went for some tech , so he tried to push him, but horang played it super save only 1 exp and mass goons with obs, 2001 classic p was > than flash in 2012 also the oldschool, "don't let terran get the 3rd" worked. if t can secure a good 3rd u know ur going for a late game horror push against 3-3 metal, the moment he takes the 3rd is his last weak moment where a good push can end it all. p philosophy since '00. and as a p player tbh i find the mu easer for p. (not saying anything about imba, just as i find pvz easier for z)
Flash is just making people think his weakness is protoss. He has unstoppable strategies lined up for games that really matter. This is all part of his grand plan.
It's funny because it isn't true. Flash has a history of making his weakest matchup the strongest one in few weeks. Now he had few days. Result? + Show Spoiler +
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
But if the 2 base push for Tosses doesn't work they will take a 3rd and even a fourth from time to time after they did their damage and transition into a late game. Terrans literally NEVER take a fourth these days, no matter what, absolutelely no matter. It is so odd. Their SCVs just stop mining when main and natural are mined out.
Yes, the reasoning is of the points that I highlighted. A toss in PvZ can take a 3rd and fourth while having its army to defend key points between the nat and 3rd / fourth and at the same time ensure the zerg isn't completely unharassed because of drops that can do great damage in a very short time (storm drop or reaver drop takes ~10 pop and while expensive can react fast enough to return to the main army if the zerg engages). The terran can't do that, if he wants to deny economy it's half of his army moving out, unless the protoss is careless and allows the terran the ability to micro vultures in the mineral line which ofcourse does happen and good terrans capitalize on those mistakes but the terran can't always depend on the opponent making a mistake. If the terran commits to taking a fourth it means that he has to settle on turtling on half the map and starve the protoss out or lose and that's literally it since the protoss is going to go unharassed and have more expansions.
Yeah, but II don't believe that there is really no alternative. No race (except for Zerg in ZvZ but ZvZ is almost a different game) in any matchup is a stale and predictable as Terrans in TvP. In PvT you have Carriers, Mass Gateway only or Arbiters. Even in TvT there are usually Tanks but also Mass Wraiths, Mass Vultures or Dropship play. It is just TvP where one side exactly knows what the other side will do, no exceptions so far and that can't be good. I don't have the answers but I wonder about a few options. Do Terrans really have to produce all these Vultures and hope to get lucky with Harrass and mines? Can't they use their extra minerals for a fourth, wall it up with Depots and mine and Turret it up? At least on some maps? To me it just feels like that 3 base push while incredibly strong is overused and Tosses won't lose to it often enough anymore because they can tailor their midgame exclusively for that one strategy.
On March 20 2012 17:12 Biff The Understudy wrote: Yeah but why does he try to kill a super good toss with something lile 14 goons with 3 tanks ten rines and 4 vultures. The worst about that game is that his micro was stellar. But the attack was just a bad idea...
Actually it was 8 goons and he was outmicroed, you're kidding yourself terribly here.
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
If you ever watched Flash before he became God, you'd know Flash's 3-base push almost never fail against most protosses. Yeah, he was losing sometimes to the likes of Stork or Best, but he was regularly killing average 5+ base protosses with ease.
Yeah, of course if it fails then the terran's screwed. But Flash doesn't fail
On March 20 2012 14:09 endy wrote: I never understood why Flash has to cut corners that much. His late game is super good tanks to his macro and imba tank positioning. I mean the way he places tanks is so much superior than any other terran. Only his vulture usage is second to Fantasy's.
I never get tired of that game on Fighting Spirit against Stats, where Flash holds every maxed attack with 50 supply of pure tanks chilling in the opposite corner of the map.
which games is this? I would love to see a game between Flash and Stats
its in the replays on TL, its aptly described at the "Great Wall of China"
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
If you ever watched Flash before he became God, you'd know Flash's 3-base push almost never fail against most protosses. Yeah, he was losing sometimes to the likes of Stork or Best, but he was regularly killing average 5+ base protosses with ease.
Yeah, of course if it fails then the terran's screwed. But Flash doesn't fail
I did watch him before he became God, the thing was that alot of the maps where his famous play against Toss were played on maps that let the Terran get a quick 4th that was easily linked with natural and third, hence the same mindset as protoss getting expansion vs zerg after 2 base push. Or that the map favored 2 base push because of terrain abuse and he could always split the map easily afterward.
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
But if the 2 base push for Tosses doesn't work they will take a 3rd and even a fourth from time to time after they did their damage and transition into a late game. Terrans literally NEVER take a fourth these days, no matter what, absolutelely no matter. It is so odd. Their SCVs just stop mining when main and natural are mined out.
Yes, the reasoning is of the points that I highlighted. A toss in PvZ can take a 3rd and fourth while having its army to defend key points between the nat and 3rd / fourth and at the same time ensure the zerg isn't completely unharassed because of drops that can do great damage in a very short time (storm drop or reaver drop takes ~10 pop and while expensive can react fast enough to return to the main army if the zerg engages). The terran can't do that, if he wants to deny economy it's half of his army moving out, unless the protoss is careless and allows the terran the ability to micro vultures in the mineral line which ofcourse does happen and good terrans capitalize on those mistakes but the terran can't always depend on the opponent making a mistake. If the terran commits to taking a fourth it means that he has to settle on turtling on half the map and starve the protoss out or lose and that's literally it since the protoss is going to go unharassed and have more expansions.
Yeah, but II don't believe that there is really no alternative. No race (except for Zerg in ZvZ but ZvZ is almost a different game) in any matchup is a stale and predictable as Terrans in TvP. In PvT you have Carriers, Mass Gateway only or Arbiters. Even in TvT there are usually Tanks but also Mass Wraiths, Mass Vultures or Dropship play. It is just TvP where one side exactly knows what the other side will do, no exceptions so far and that can't be good. I don't have the answers but I wonder about a few options. Do Terrans really have to produce all these Vultures and hope to get lucky with Harrass and mines? Can't they use their extra minerals for a fourth, wall it up with Depots and mine and Turret it up? At least on some maps? To me it just feels like that 3 base push while incredibly strong is overused and Tosses won't lose to it often enough anymore because they can tailor their midgame exclusively for that one strategy.
I've tabulated it, here's flash's 2007 spread sheet. http://i.imgur.com/IrX3x.png Even back then it was obvious that the terran mentality had to be safe factory expand into game end before late game or just super aggression early game. I could back it up with recent data, but yea look at the diversity of openings of TvP vs say TvZ (biomech 2 base push falls under 2 base all in in this spreadsheet). It's not so much stale as it has been thoroughly figured out, it's just much more advantageous for terrans to push out and end the game on 3 base or 2 base.
The sad thing is horang had that game ezpz with his micro, he just didn't macro. He didn't queue a 2nd reaver despite having the resources to do so, didn't get a 2nd gas, and kinda just sat on 500-800 minerals (with low gas). Just imagine what would've been different if he had just queued a 2nd reaver....... Flash wouldn't have known what hit him
The sad thing is horang had that game ezpz with his micro, he just didn't macro. He didn't queue a 2nd reaver despite having the resources to do so, didn't get a 2nd gas, and kinda just sat on 500-800 minerals (with low gas). Just imagine what would've been different if he had just queued a 2nd reaver....... Flash wouldn't have known what hit him
Actually he lost the game due to his initial micro mistake with his goons. The goon losses at 2nd and 3rd ridges were too great, forcing him to pump some goons off of 1 gas which tried to support 6 gates and a robo at once. His reaver micro was good but it wasn't enough to offset the composition imbalance of his units.
The sad thing is horang had that game ezpz with his micro, he just didn't macro. He didn't queue a 2nd reaver despite having the resources to do so, didn't get a 2nd gas, and kinda just sat on 500-800 minerals (with low gas). Just imagine what would've been different if he had just queued a 2nd reaver....... Flash wouldn't have known what hit him
Actually he lost the game due to his initial micro mistake with his goons. The goon losses at 2nd and 3rd ridges were too great, forcing him to pump some goons off of 1 gas which tried to support 6 gates and a robo at once. His reaver micro was good but it wasn't enough to offset the composition imbalance of his units.
On March 20 2012 14:34 Zariel wrote: Flash actually draws a line a defense not where his front is, but about 1 screen back from the front line. He plays a mindgame with his opponent to show his defense is weak goading them to break through but end up taking massive losses once they breach the front.
If you haven't noticed, he tends to place around 3-4 tanks in his front line in which he does not mind losing, then he has like 7-10 tanks behind that line that rapes anything that tries to punch through. Seriously, it's as if he's playing starcraft on a 40" screen which he can see the whole map.
lol resolution is the same... you dont see more on a bigger monitory
On March 20 2012 18:03 fYlddnaHturtDyaWdmAi wrote:
On March 20 2012 17:44 BLinD-RawR wrote: its funny, but not that much.
lol butthurt kt fan. all the others are taking it as good sports.
I wanted to say something snarky but actually thank you.You thought of me as a KT fan and not a Flash fan.
but really the comic could have expanded a bit more than Flash just raging because he saw a probe instead of a drone.
dont thank me, i edited it to flash fan. sorry to say this but you stood out in a thread where people even flash fans where having a good time. the bitterness was evident. lol. why dont you make your own comics since you have an idea for it?
Interesting to see Flash go marine tank. Being more into SC2 at the moment, I have searched VODs of games where Terran goes marine tank, like the ones linked in the Deep Six article on Liquipedia. There was a pattern where they would win vs Templar Archives opening, and lose vs Reaver, with one exception, the forGG vs Kal game, where the reaver build was actually scouted! Reavers are too good imo. At least with good control. But this Marine Tank strategy is probaly the only way Terran could diverge from current macro standards, if they can make this work, of course. I have even tried to work out a build that gets Tanks and Marine-Medic from 2 or at most 3 Barracks and transitions into mass Vultures as time goes by. I only practiced it in single player, not vs humans though. Also thought about only one Rax and just stim for marines, pushing out with 2 Medics 10 marines 7 Siege tanks and 3 Vultures while making factories, and in general just macroing at home.
The issue is pure economical superiority of Protoss. They get buildings to build by themselves, while Terran has to lose mining time for every building they make, depots take longer to build, and even more, SCVs are retarded on close mineral patches, so they don't mine them faster than the ones one square away. So there will always be a large difference in resources mined until major damage happens.
Now, if we accept that we have to go mech against Protoss, the higher cost of the Factories and addons needs to be taken into consideration, so now we see how much smaller the Terran army value is. So you see Terrans going for the late game, by taking an early 3rd, fast upgrades and waiting for a large number of Tanks in order to hit a critical mass that is impossible for Protoss to break cost-efficiently. The fact is that there is no reason for Protoss to be behind (or even for that matter) any kind of 1 or 2 base Factory play because the economy is naturally in their favor. But Barracks are cheaper, and Marines have huge dps for cost, don't they? It would be awesome if you could somehow make Marines work, so you could get out on the map quickly, and be able to consistently punish greedy 3rds from Protoss. But how do you make Marines viable?
On March 20 2012 18:03 fYlddnaHturtDyaWdmAi wrote:
On March 20 2012 17:44 BLinD-RawR wrote: its funny, but not that much.
lol butthurt kt fan. all the others are taking it as good sports.
I wanted to say something snarky but actually thank you.You thought of me as a KT fan and not a Flash fan.
but really the comic could have expanded a bit more than Flash just raging because he saw a probe instead of a drone.
dont thank me, i edited it to flash fan. sorry to say this but you stood out in a thread where people even flash fans where having a good time. the bitterness was evident. lol. why dont you make your own comics since you have an idea for it?
But I wasn't bitter...:/
I just don't find it that funny
Nor am I a flash fan, I prefer the rest of KT to flash.
Firstly, one should be cautious about comparing games - in particular games just prior to the surgery with the ones in this SPL. I recall flash saying something that implicitly suggested a lack of motivation/desire of winning against JangBi in an interview by TossGirl (e.g. he wanted to get the surgery done asap). I don't think it's absurd to suggest that choice of strategies in some of his last games before the surgery could have been influenced by the recurrent physical pain in his wrist.
Speaking of only postsurgery games, 3 consecutive losses against protoss players are not enough to be statistically significant. This means that the simplest explanation "coincidence" also easily could be the most accurate one. Keeping this in mind, we can now look into each of the games he lost.
Flash opens with 1rax CC, Dear opens with 1gate core w/ range into nexus. These are to my knowledge fairly balanced openings giving no player a significant BO advantage.
6:12 Flash manages to scout a robotics facility with a hidden scv in Dear's main.
7:10 The observer shows a hidden robotics supportbay placed at the back of Dear's natural near the nexus, and an observatory at the front of the natural.
7:46 Flash starts constructing an engineering bay around the time his academy is up so that he can scan for information around the time the engineering bay is up. With this information, he can decide on whether or not he should make turrets.
8:12 The first scan is placed in the middle of Dear's main. Since Dear smartly placed his shuttle at his natural instead of having it hanging over the robotics facility, Flash a) does not scout a robotics supportbay, b) sees no shuttle waiting for a reaver.
8:26 Flash scans top left of Dear's base looking for hidden tech, but only sees a pylon.
8:48 Shortly after having cancelled the building turrets, having seen no signs of a reaverbuild, Flash uses 4 vultures to scout Dear's newly built 3rd, contributing to Flash's conclusion: Dear is apperently going for an economical opening.
9:05 To Flash's surprise, a shuttle shows up. Seing this, Flash immediately starts turrets again.
9:08 Dear gets off a nice shot in the scv line.
9:17 Another nice shot.
9:33 Perhaps the most deciding shot of the game, killing a lot of scvs.
10:40 Flash tries to secure 3rd, knowing that Dear already got his 3rd up. Dear hits just before a defensive turret is up with 2 shuttles and his army (argueably, not much would have changed had the turret finished before). Flash loses his army and essentially the game.
Summary: 1) Dear kept shuttle at natural, hoping for scan in main (happened) 2) Dear kept robotics supportbay at natural, hoping for lack of scan/scout here (happened) 3) Dear took a 3rd at what would be the normal timing for a normal non-reaver opening, hoping for flash to scout this (happened) 4) Not a single reavershot missed/bugged.
Based on obtained information, it "could" be correct to cancel the turrets. A delayed or quicker scan, or a scan at a different location, would possibly have provided different information. It remains unknown if locations for scan and timings for scan were arbitrary/intentionally randomized, or if Dear accounted for this. On that same token, it remains unknown if Flash scouted suboptimally (aside from the perhaps just unfortunate timings and locations for scans). Thus, it remains unknown whether Flash actually made any noticeable mistakes (let me know if I missed any) aside from the mistake of being unlucky.
I think it is fair to claim that Dear was at least a bit lucky this game, as is claiming that he played it smartly. He had huge hits with his reaver shots, Flash scouted and scanned at the ideal time and place from Dear's perspective. Reversibly, it would be unfair to claim that Flash had much luck. Consequently, the distribution of fortune this game favored Dear, which, in conjunction with the tricky plays, won him the game.
Flash opens with a proxy rax, StarDust opens with a gateway.
4:19 StarDust sees two marines with his scouting probe, allowing him to expect a hidden bunker.
4:30 Expecting (correctly) the hidden bunker, StarDust pull probes to his natural to prevent it from finishing. Losing 4 probes and mining time, he manages to kill a finished bunker. Flash brought 3 scv's of his own to support his marines.
5:20 Upon seing the first dragoon, Flash opts to return to his main. The game settles at what looks to be a normal one with both players taking their natural expansion.
8:00 Flash scouts a building nexus at StarDust's natural with a floating rax.
9:00 StarDust decides to cheese, proxying a robotics facility and 3 gateways instead of taking 3rd, whilst Flash takes his inbase mineral only 3rd. Since Flash opted to skip academy and just get turrets blindly, he has no way of scouting the lack of buildings in StarDust's main. Furthermore, he flew his rax to the north, scouting no proxied buildings in the process. Using the a shuttle to transport units to Flash's 3rd and later for a reaver, StarDust wins the game with his 2 base play.
Summary: 1) StarDust (perhaps intentionally) scouted marines in time to stop the bunkerrush without losing anything aside from miningtime and 4 probes. 2) Flash skips academy, lacking scans that could potentially have revealed a lack of gateways in the main of StarDust. 3) StarDust proxied his buildings before scouting the 3rd of Flash, blindly hoping for Flash to opt for a quick 3rd instead of a 2base timing push. (happened) 4) Contrary to the game against Dear, Flash opted to do a 1fact into 3rd instead of 2fact into 3rd, lacking vultures to scout with as a result. 5) Flash scouted no proxied buildings with his floating rax in the middle of the map, decreasing the odds of StarDust having proxied any (from Flash's perspective).
Similar to the game against Dear, Flash scouted all the wrong things and thus made unfortunate decisions. For instance, had the floating rax scouted main instead of natural, Flash would have scouted the lack of gateways. Or had he opted for 2fact into 3rd, vultures might have scouted the proxied buildings and Flash would have had more units to defend with. I say this merely to point to the fact that StarDust was having a best case scenario with his proxied buildings, presumeably making them without any certainty of Flash not doing one or more of: a 2base push, going 2fact into 3rd, scouting them with the floating rax, scouting lack of gateways in main with the floating rax, getting academy for scans.
Flash does a conservative and safe 1rax gas 1fact opening while scouting whilst Horang2 skips any probescouting, doing a normal 1gate core opening, relying on his dragoon to scout. Maybe the map is bad for proxy rax or perhaps Horang2 had a bit of luck having Flash do a conservative opening.
8:35 Perhaps in hopes of Horang2 having taken an early 3rd or having teched to something beside observers, Flash decides to push with a handful of marines, a few vultures with mines and 3 tanks. However, Horang2 went for a standard 3 gate and thus managed to defend without too many losses.
15:35 Horang2 goes for a huge 13gate arbiter push, hitting Flash just before vessels are out. Flash loses his entire army, but eventually manages to push Horang2 back.
18:40 Horang2 goes for another big push. This time, Flash has 2 vessels out. In anticipation of recalls in main or natural, Flash has one vessel at each of these locations. However, unfortunately for flash, Horang2 uses his arbiter to support his army, making a huge recall on top of the army of Flash as a result hereof. It should be noted, though, that Flash was behind at this point and most likely would have lost the game either way.
Summary: 1) Flash takes a slight BO disadvantage, doing a 1fact into CC opening while scouting against a blind core opening. 2) Flash opts to do a push from 2 bases in hopes of Horang2 doing something nonstandard.
This seems like the most interresting game of the 3 games to me. In this game, it Horang2 did not seem to win mostly by virtue of luck. Obviously, he had a slight lead neglecting to scout with a probe while being up against the conservative opening of Flash, but is that really significant enough to explain the outcome of the game? Flash did do an unsuccesful 2base push, but did it really put him behind that much? Horang2 also did stay on 1 forge, which is suboptimal had his 13gate push not worked, but it doesn't seem that decisive either. Finally, he did push just before the first vessel of Flash, but nothing prevents Flash from scanning arbiter timing and prepare accordingly, getting the vessel out in time. Did Flash make any significant mistakes or was he really unlucky at any point in this game?
On March 20 2012 14:39 Scarecrow wrote: I don't think people understand why he takes these risks. Against horang2 he absolutely needed to have that third up and fortified asap. He can't afford to stay on 2 base too long or he'll just get run over by shit like 3 base 12 gate arb tech. To get to his amazing late game he MUST secure a third if he misses the timing to punish the tosses third. If the 2 base push fails (like it did vs horang2) he has to take a risk or simply get worn down. The turret cancelling is just the problem he faces, tosses either go super greedy or super all in vs him. If he throws down turrets vs a super greedy play (like that old game vs snow) he's in a horrible situation. It's just the 2 games he lost were mis-reads due to opponents proxying/hiding buildings.
Love this - wanted to add these days, a lot of maps are REALLY hard to take a third - ffor example on the map with horange, you have to defend a ramp thats more than a quarter of the map in terms of width... its redic hard to play like that
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
But if the 2 base push for Tosses doesn't work they will take a 3rd and even a fourth from time to time after they did their damage and transition into a late game. Terrans literally NEVER take a fourth these days, no matter what, absolutelely no matter. It is so odd. Their SCVs just stop mining when main and natural are mined out.
Yes, the reasoning is of the points that I highlighted. A toss in PvZ can take a 3rd and fourth while having its army to defend key points between the nat and 3rd / fourth and at the same time ensure the zerg isn't completely unharassed because of drops that can do great damage in a very short time (storm drop or reaver drop takes ~10 pop and while expensive can react fast enough to return to the main army if the zerg engages). The terran can't do that, if he wants to deny economy it's half of his army moving out, unless the protoss is careless and allows the terran the ability to micro vultures in the mineral line which ofcourse does happen and good terrans capitalize on those mistakes but the terran can't always depend on the opponent making a mistake. If the terran commits to taking a fourth it means that he has to settle on turtling on half the map and starve the protoss out or lose and that's literally it since the protoss is going to go unharassed and have more expansions.
Yeah, but II don't believe that there is really no alternative. No race (except for Zerg in ZvZ but ZvZ is almost a different game) in any matchup is a stale and predictable as Terrans in TvP. In PvT you have Carriers, Mass Gateway only or Arbiters. Even in TvT there are usually Tanks but also Mass Wraiths, Mass Vultures or Dropship play. It is just TvP where one side exactly knows what the other side will do, no exceptions so far and that can't be good. I don't have the answers but I wonder about a few options. Do Terrans really have to produce all these Vultures and hope to get lucky with Harrass and mines? Can't they use their extra minerals for a fourth, wall it up with Depots and mine and Turret it up? At least on some maps? To me it just feels like that 3 base push while incredibly strong is overused and Tosses won't lose to it often enough anymore because they can tailor their midgame exclusively for that one strategy.
I've tabulated it, here's flash's 2007 spread sheet. http://i.imgur.com/IrX3x.png Even back then it was obvious that the terran mentality had to be safe factory expand into game end before late game or just super aggression early game. I could back it up with recent data, but yea look at the diversity of openings of TvP vs say TvZ (biomech 2 base push falls under 2 base all in in this spreadsheet). It's not so much stale as it has been thoroughly figured out, it's just much more advantageous for terrans to push out and end the game on 3 base or 2 base.
Imo the problem is that it doesn't seem to work currently. Tosses destroy the 3 base doom push left and right unless the T leaves the early game with a substantial advantage or is just a better player. And Flash seems to know it, the history of games vs. good players this season shows it. In his first win vs. Horang2 he completely ouplayed him with Vultures in the early game but you can't always rely on that. After that he 14CCed Stork, Bunker rushed Best, lost a straight up game vs. Horang2 and now now 4-Raxed him.
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
But if the 2 base push for Tosses doesn't work they will take a 3rd and even a fourth from time to time after they did their damage and transition into a late game. Terrans literally NEVER take a fourth these days, no matter what, absolutelely no matter. It is so odd. Their SCVs just stop mining when main and natural are mined out.
Yes, the reasoning is of the points that I highlighted. A toss in PvZ can take a 3rd and fourth while having its army to defend key points between the nat and 3rd / fourth and at the same time ensure the zerg isn't completely unharassed because of drops that can do great damage in a very short time (storm drop or reaver drop takes ~10 pop and while expensive can react fast enough to return to the main army if the zerg engages). The terran can't do that, if he wants to deny economy it's half of his army moving out, unless the protoss is careless and allows the terran the ability to micro vultures in the mineral line which ofcourse does happen and good terrans capitalize on those mistakes but the terran can't always depend on the opponent making a mistake. If the terran commits to taking a fourth it means that he has to settle on turtling on half the map and starve the protoss out or lose and that's literally it since the protoss is going to go unharassed and have more expansions.
Yeah, but II don't believe that there is really no alternative. No race (except for Zerg in ZvZ but ZvZ is almost a different game) in any matchup is a stale and predictable as Terrans in TvP. In PvT you have Carriers, Mass Gateway only or Arbiters. Even in TvT there are usually Tanks but also Mass Wraiths, Mass Vultures or Dropship play. It is just TvP where one side exactly knows what the other side will do, no exceptions so far and that can't be good. I don't have the answers but I wonder about a few options. Do Terrans really have to produce all these Vultures and hope to get lucky with Harrass and mines? Can't they use their extra minerals for a fourth, wall it up with Depots and mine and Turret it up? At least on some maps? To me it just feels like that 3 base push while incredibly strong is overused and Tosses won't lose to it often enough anymore because they can tailor their midgame exclusively for that one strategy.
I've tabulated it, here's flash's 2007 spread sheet. http://i.imgur.com/IrX3x.png Even back then it was obvious that the terran mentality had to be safe factory expand into game end before late game or just super aggression early game. I could back it up with recent data, but yea look at the diversity of openings of TvP vs say TvZ (biomech 2 base push falls under 2 base all in in this spreadsheet). It's not so much stale as it has been thoroughly figured out, it's just much more advantageous for terrans to push out and end the game on 3 base or 2 base.
Imo the problem is that it doesn't seem to work currently. Tosses destroy the 3 base doom push left and right unless the T leaves the early game with a substantial advantage or is just a better player. And Flash seems to know it, the history of games vs. good players this season shows it. In his first win vs. Horang2 he completely ouplayed him with Vultures in the early game but you can't always rely on that. After that he 14CCed Stork, Bunker rushed Best, lost a straight up game vs. Horang2 and now now 4-Raxed him.
Ye I know, I have recent data too, the trends were this way in 2007 even when protoss' had really bad reaver / shuttle micro, didn't punish upgrade timings of mech (back then flash got away with 3 CC / double armory / starport / science facility off =< 4 factories all the times, you can imagine how small his actual army is), and didn't expand nearly as fast as they do against terran now. Nowadays flash cuts alot more corners economically just to be competitive but it still revolves around early game aggression like you said. TvP is very figured out and I'm not sure if there is going to be any deviation to mid-late game strategy that can come at this point, scary is the day when protoss figures out how to reliably defend against terran 1/2 base all in's because then all the terran has left in its arsenal then is 3 base doom push into turtling on half the map.
Firstly, one should be cautious about comparing games - in particular games just prior to the surgery with the ones in this SPL. I recall flash saying something that implicitly suggested a lack of motivation/desire of winning against JangBi in an interview by TossGirl (e.g. he wanted to get the surgery done asap). I don't think it's absurd to suggest that choice of strategies in some of his last games before the surgery could have been influenced by the recurrent physical pain in his wrist.
Speaking of only postsurgery games, 3 consecutive losses against protoss players are not enough to be statistically significant. This means that the simplest explanation "coincidence" also easily could be the most accurate one. Keeping this in mind, we can now look into each of the games he lost.
Flash opens with 1rax CC, Dear opens with 1gate core w/ range into nexus. These are to my knowledge fairly balanced openings giving no player a significant BO advantage.
6:12 Flash manages to scout a robotics facility with a hidden scv in Dear's main.
7:10 The observer shows a hidden robotics supportbay placed at the back of Dear's natural near the nexus, and an observatory at the front of the natural.
7:46 Flash starts constructing an engineering bay around the time his academy is up so that he can scan for information around the time the engineering bay is up. With this information, he can decide on whether or not he should make turrets.
8:12 The first scan is placed in the middle of Dear's main. Since Dear smartly placed his shuttle at his natural instead of having it hanging over the robotics facility, Flash a) does not scout a robotics supportbay, b) sees no shuttle waiting for a reaver.
8:26 Flash scans top left of Dear's base looking for hidden tech, but only sees a pylon.
8:48 Shortly after having cancelled the building turrets, having seen no signs of a reaverbuild, Flash uses 4 vultures to scout Dear's newly built 3rd, contributing to Flash's conclusion: Dear is apperently going for an economical opening.
9:05 To Flash's surprise, a shuttle shows up. Seing this, Flash immediately starts turrets again.
9:08 Dear gets off a nice shot in the scv line.
9:17 Another nice shot.
9:33 Perhaps the most deciding shot of the game, killing a lot of scvs.
10:40 Flash tries to secure 3rd, knowing that Dear already got his 3rd up. Dear hits just before a defensive turret is up with 2 shuttles and his army (argueably, not much would have changed had the turret finished before). Flash loses his army and essentially the game.
Summary: 1) Dear kept shuttle at natural, hoping for scan in main (happened) 2) Dear kept robotics supportbay at natural, hoping for lack of scan/scout here (happened) 3) Dear took a 3rd at what would be the normal timing for a normal non-reaver opening, hoping for flash to scout this (happened) 4) Not a single reavershot missed/bugged.
Based on obtained information, it "could" be correct to cancel the turrets. A delayed or quicker scan, or a scan at a different location, would possibly have provided different information. It remains unknown if locations for scan and timings for scan were arbitrary/intentionally randomized, or if Dear accounted for this. On that same token, it remains unknown if Flash scouted suboptimally (aside from the perhaps just unfortunate timings and locations for scans). Thus, it remains unknown whether Flash actually made any noticeable mistakes (let me know if I missed any) aside from the mistake of being unlucky.
I think it is fair to claim that Dear was at least a bit lucky this game, as is claiming that he played it smartly. He had huge hits with his reaver shots, Flash scouted and scanned at the ideal time and place from Dear's perspective. Reversibly, it would be unfair to claim that Flash had much luck. Consequently, the distribution of fortune this game favored Dear, which, in conjunction with the tricky plays, won him the game.
Flash opens with a proxy rax, StarDust opens with a gateway.
4:19 StarDust sees two marines with his scouting probe, allowing him to expect a hidden bunker.
4:30 Expecting (correctly) the hidden bunker, StarDust pull probes to his natural to prevent it from finishing. Losing 4 probes and mining time, he manages to kill a finished bunker. Flash brought 3 scv's of his own to support his marines.
5:20 Upon seing the first dragoon, Flash opts to return to his main. The game settles at what looks to be a normal one with both players taking their natural expansion.
8:00 Flash scouts a building nexus at StarDust's natural with a floating rax.
9:00 StarDust decides to cheese, proxying a robotics facility and 3 gateways instead of taking 3rd, whilst Flash takes his inbase mineral only 3rd. Since Flash opted to skip academy and just get turrets blindly, he has no way of scouting the lack of buildings in StarDust's main. Furthermore, he flew his rax to the north, scouting no proxied buildings in the process. Using the a shuttle to transport units to Flash's 3rd and later for a reaver, StarDust wins the game with his 2 base play.
Summary: 1) StarDust (perhaps intentionally) scouted marines in time to stop the bunkerrush without losing anything aside from miningtime and 4 probes. 2) Flash skips academy, lacking scans that could potentially have revealed a lack of gateways in the main of StarDust. 3) StarDust proxied his buildings before scouting the 3rd of Flash, blindly hoping for Flash to opt for a quick 3rd instead of a 2base timing push. (happened) 4) Contrary to the game against Dear, Flash opted to do a 1fact into 3rd instead of 2fact into 3rd, lacking vultures to scout with as a result. 5) Flash scouted no proxied buildings with his floating rax in the middle of the map, decreasing the odds of StarDust having proxied any (from Flash's perspective).
Similar to the game against Dear, Flash scouted all the wrong things and thus made unfortunate decisions. For instance, had the floating rax scouted main instead of natural, Flash would have scouted the lack of gateways. Or had he opted for 2fact into 3rd, vultures might have scouted the proxied buildings and Flash would have had more units to defend with. I say this merely to point to the fact that StarDust was having a best case scenario with his proxied buildings, presumeably making them without any certainty of Flash not doing one or more of: a 2base push, going 2fact into 3rd, scouting them with the floating rax, scouting lack of gateways in main with the floating rax, getting academy for scans.
Flash does a conservative and safe 1rax gas 1fact opening while scouting whilst Horang2 skips any probescouting, doing a normal 1gate core opening, relying on his dragoon to scout. Maybe the map is bad for proxy rax or perhaps Horang2 had a bit of luck having Flash do a conservative opening.
8:35 Perhaps in hopes of Horang2 having taken an early 3rd or having teched to something beside observers, Flash decides to push with a handful of marines, a few vultures with mines and 3 tanks. However, Horang2 went for a standard 3 gate and thus managed to defend without too many losses.
15:35 Horang2 goes for a huge 13gate arbiter push, hitting Flash just before vessels are out. Flash loses his entire army, but eventually manages to push Horang2 back.
18:40 Horang2 goes for another big push. This time, Flash has 2 vessels out. In anticipation of recalls in main or natural, Flash has one vessel at each of these locations. However, unfortunately for flash, Horang2 uses his arbiter to support his army, making a huge recall on top of the army of Flash as a result hereof. It should be noted, though, that Flash was behind at this point and most likely would have lost the game either way.
Summary: 1) Flash takes a slight BO disadvantage, doing a 1fact into CC opening while scouting against a blind core opening. 2) Flash opts to do a push from 2 bases in hopes of Horang2 doing something nonstandard.
This seems like the most interresting game of the 3 games to me. In this game, it Horang2 did not seem to win mostly by virtue of luck. Obviously, he had a slight lead neglecting to scout with a probe while being up against the conservative opening of Flash, but is that really significant enough to explain the outcome of the game? Flash did do an unsuccesful 2base push, but did it really put him behind that much? Horang2 also did stay on 1 forge, which is suboptimal had his 13gate push not worked, but it doesn't seem that decisive either. Finally, he did push just before the first vessel of Flash, but nothing prevents Flash from scanning arbiter timing and prepare accordingly, getting the vessel out in time. Did Flash make any significant mistakes or was he really unlucky at any point in this game?
Dude seriously you can post this as a separate thread! Thanks for this!
Thanks for the thorough analysis. I haven't rewatched Flash vs M18M, but I seem to recall that M18M's choice to proxy everything into the middle was based on getting a shuttle/zealot into Flash's main and seeing a third CC being built there, no?
As for Flash vs Horang Episode 1, I believe that Flash's push getting dismantled left Horang2 rather far ahead --- he said as much in his interview. (This is in response to you asking whether Flash made any big mistakes in that game.) Beyond that, Flash made the error of clumping his tanks too much, allowing for a million-dollar stasis; and having the vessels patrolling the recall routes turned out in hindsight to be a mistake, but there was no way of knowing.
Flash usually adapts to losses extremely well. He can be stubborn sometimes (14CC), but once he decides to change things up, he becomes unbeatable and stays that way for a while. Knowing this, I'm more confident than ever that after this short losing streak he will be ready to beat Best/Bisu/Khantosses.
As for Flash vs Horang Episode 1, I believe that Flash's push getting dismantled left Horang2 rather far ahead --- he said as much in his interview.
Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Flashes problem occured when he tried to make a fast third base without having the defense to do it.
If you notice, Horang2 gets his 3rd expansion far after flash does. While flash was building his third base, Horang2 was investing all of his resources into units to prevent flash from getting a fast third base.
Horang2 then delayed flashes third base long enough for him to secure his own third at the same time thus putting Horang2 far ahead because he had the bigger army size (from building a late third & focusing those resources on units).
Flash scouted arbiter and because of this he wanted to get out faster science vessel to deal with it. Having his expansion delayed ruined the science vessel timing because he wasn't able to get that third gas as fast. That third gas was critical to Flashes strategy because it would have allowed him to throw down more factory while building siege tank and science vessel. Because Flash didn't get his third base as early as he wanted to he wasn't able to do all at once and it forced him to stay on five factory and one starport (not giving him that unit support he needed).
Horang2 knows that Flashes quick third strategy involves a lot of tank with a minimal vulture count. That's why he massed Zealots toward the end. In the end, Flash ended up getting broken.
To tvp specialists: can we consider the strategy used by flash against horang2 day3 as an all-in or would he be able to recover from it if he hadn't killed horang2 with that initial push?
On March 22 2012 03:38 gds wrote: To tvp specialists: can we consider the strategy used by flash against horang2 day3 as an all-in or would he be able to recover from it if he hadn't killed horang2 with that initial push?
If the first push fails, the protoss has time to accumulate speed zealots, high templar, and reavers, which make life really difficult for the bio terran. (You saw how a single reaver almost saved Horang2.) So the idea is to win in one push.
On March 22 2012 03:38 gds wrote: To tvp specialists: can we consider the strategy used by flash against horang2 day3 as an all-in or would he be able to recover from it if he hadn't killed horang2 with that initial push?
And I believe horang2 almost had that game, if he would avoid a few mistakes: 1) when he sniped the first tank, he should back off and not to lose almost all dragons there 2) he mismicroed dragons there But his reaver micro was great and almost saved him there.
Firstly, one should be cautious about comparing games - in particular games just prior to the surgery with the ones in this SPL. I recall flash saying something that implicitly suggested a lack of motivation/desire of winning against JangBi in an interview by TossGirl (e.g. he wanted to get the surgery done asap). I don't think it's absurd to suggest that choice of strategies in some of his last games before the surgery could have been influenced by the recurrent physical pain in his wrist.
Speaking of only postsurgery games, 3 consecutive losses against protoss players are not enough to be statistically significant. This means that the simplest explanation "coincidence" also easily could be the most accurate one. Keeping this in mind, we can now look into each of the games he lost.
Flash opens with 1rax CC, Dear opens with 1gate core w/ range into nexus. These are to my knowledge fairly balanced openings giving no player a significant BO advantage.
6:12 Flash manages to scout a robotics facility with a hidden scv in Dear's main.
7:10 The observer shows a hidden robotics supportbay placed at the back of Dear's natural near the nexus, and an observatory at the front of the natural.
7:46 Flash starts constructing an engineering bay around the time his academy is up so that he can scan for information around the time the engineering bay is up. With this information, he can decide on whether or not he should make turrets.
8:12 The first scan is placed in the middle of Dear's main. Since Dear smartly placed his shuttle at his natural instead of having it hanging over the robotics facility, Flash a) does not scout a robotics supportbay, b) sees no shuttle waiting for a reaver.
8:26 Flash scans top left of Dear's base looking for hidden tech, but only sees a pylon.
8:48 Shortly after having cancelled the building turrets, having seen no signs of a reaverbuild, Flash uses 4 vultures to scout Dear's newly built 3rd, contributing to Flash's conclusion: Dear is apperently going for an economical opening.
9:05 To Flash's surprise, a shuttle shows up. Seing this, Flash immediately starts turrets again.
9:08 Dear gets off a nice shot in the scv line.
9:17 Another nice shot.
9:33 Perhaps the most deciding shot of the game, killing a lot of scvs.
10:40 Flash tries to secure 3rd, knowing that Dear already got his 3rd up. Dear hits just before a defensive turret is up with 2 shuttles and his army (argueably, not much would have changed had the turret finished before). Flash loses his army and essentially the game.
Summary: 1) Dear kept shuttle at natural, hoping for scan in main (happened) 2) Dear kept robotics supportbay at natural, hoping for lack of scan/scout here (happened) 3) Dear took a 3rd at what would be the normal timing for a normal non-reaver opening, hoping for flash to scout this (happened) 4) Not a single reavershot missed/bugged.
Based on obtained information, it "could" be correct to cancel the turrets. A delayed or quicker scan, or a scan at a different location, would possibly have provided different information. It remains unknown if locations for scan and timings for scan were arbitrary/intentionally randomized, or if Dear accounted for this. On that same token, it remains unknown if Flash scouted suboptimally (aside from the perhaps just unfortunate timings and locations for scans). Thus, it remains unknown whether Flash actually made any noticeable mistakes (let me know if I missed any) aside from the mistake of being unlucky.
I think it is fair to claim that Dear was at least a bit lucky this game, as is claiming that he played it smartly. He had huge hits with his reaver shots, Flash scouted and scanned at the ideal time and place from Dear's perspective. Reversibly, it would be unfair to claim that Flash had much luck. Consequently, the distribution of fortune this game favored Dear, which, in conjunction with the tricky plays, won him the game.
Flash opens with a proxy rax, StarDust opens with a gateway.
4:19 StarDust sees two marines with his scouting probe, allowing him to expect a hidden bunker.
4:30 Expecting (correctly) the hidden bunker, StarDust pull probes to his natural to prevent it from finishing. Losing 4 probes and mining time, he manages to kill a finished bunker. Flash brought 3 scv's of his own to support his marines.
5:20 Upon seing the first dragoon, Flash opts to return to his main. The game settles at what looks to be a normal one with both players taking their natural expansion.
8:00 Flash scouts a building nexus at StarDust's natural with a floating rax.
9:00 StarDust decides to cheese, proxying a robotics facility and 3 gateways instead of taking 3rd, whilst Flash takes his inbase mineral only 3rd. Since Flash opted to skip academy and just get turrets blindly, he has no way of scouting the lack of buildings in StarDust's main. Furthermore, he flew his rax to the north, scouting no proxied buildings in the process. Using the a shuttle to transport units to Flash's 3rd and later for a reaver, StarDust wins the game with his 2 base play.
Summary: 1) StarDust (perhaps intentionally) scouted marines in time to stop the bunkerrush without losing anything aside from miningtime and 4 probes. 2) Flash skips academy, lacking scans that could potentially have revealed a lack of gateways in the main of StarDust. 3) StarDust proxied his buildings before scouting the 3rd of Flash, blindly hoping for Flash to opt for a quick 3rd instead of a 2base timing push. (happened) 4) Contrary to the game against Dear, Flash opted to do a 1fact into 3rd instead of 2fact into 3rd, lacking vultures to scout with as a result. 5) Flash scouted no proxied buildings with his floating rax in the middle of the map, decreasing the odds of StarDust having proxied any (from Flash's perspective).
Similar to the game against Dear, Flash scouted all the wrong things and thus made unfortunate decisions. For instance, had the floating rax scouted main instead of natural, Flash would have scouted the lack of gateways. Or had he opted for 2fact into 3rd, vultures might have scouted the proxied buildings and Flash would have had more units to defend with. I say this merely to point to the fact that StarDust was having a best case scenario with his proxied buildings, presumeably making them without any certainty of Flash not doing one or more of: a 2base push, going 2fact into 3rd, scouting them with the floating rax, scouting lack of gateways in main with the floating rax, getting academy for scans.
Flash does a conservative and safe 1rax gas 1fact opening while scouting whilst Horang2 skips any probescouting, doing a normal 1gate core opening, relying on his dragoon to scout. Maybe the map is bad for proxy rax or perhaps Horang2 had a bit of luck having Flash do a conservative opening.
8:35 Perhaps in hopes of Horang2 having taken an early 3rd or having teched to something beside observers, Flash decides to push with a handful of marines, a few vultures with mines and 3 tanks. However, Horang2 went for a standard 3 gate and thus managed to defend without too many losses.
15:35 Horang2 goes for a huge 13gate arbiter push, hitting Flash just before vessels are out. Flash loses his entire army, but eventually manages to push Horang2 back.
18:40 Horang2 goes for another big push. This time, Flash has 2 vessels out. In anticipation of recalls in main or natural, Flash has one vessel at each of these locations. However, unfortunately for flash, Horang2 uses his arbiter to support his army, making a huge recall on top of the army of Flash as a result hereof. It should be noted, though, that Flash was behind at this point and most likely would have lost the game either way.
Summary: 1) Flash takes a slight BO disadvantage, doing a 1fact into CC opening while scouting against a blind core opening. 2) Flash opts to do a push from 2 bases in hopes of Horang2 doing something nonstandard.
This seems like the most interresting game of the 3 games to me. In this game, it Horang2 did not seem to win mostly by virtue of luck. Obviously, he had a slight lead neglecting to scout with a probe while being up against the conservative opening of Flash, but is that really significant enough to explain the outcome of the game? Flash did do an unsuccesful 2base push, but did it really put him behind that much? Horang2 also did stay on 1 forge, which is suboptimal had his 13gate push not worked, but it doesn't seem that decisive either. Finally, he did push just before the first vessel of Flash, but nothing prevents Flash from scanning arbiter timing and prepare accordingly, getting the vessel out in time. Did Flash make any significant mistakes or was he really unlucky at any point in this game?
I think you make some fantastic points about the games, and I agree with you that Dear certainly got very lucky, but I'm not as certain about the second game, against M18M (blargh, I refuse to call him Stardust). I don't know if M18M got lucky that Flash didn't make a 2-base push; perhaps M18M was guessing and he got lucky, perhaps he predicted that Flash, confident in his mechanics, wouldn't 2-base push, preferring to play a long game; I think the poor scouting is a much bigger problem.
In my humble opinion, Flash could (and more importantly, should) have scouted the lack of gateways in M18M's main and expected some kind of cheese. Why scout at all if it doesn't tell you anything about what your opponent is doing? He doesn't even need to see the proxies, just the lack of in-base infrastructure, to know that some sort of cheese is incoming. Lack of scouting in the main, combined with the lack of scans or vultures and the blind turrets (with no reasonable basis for building them) seems like somewhat subpar decision making to me. If he had opted to fully scout the main or scan it, he would have been able to defend any push that M18M made.
Ironically, it also seems like Flash's build against M18M was almost tailor-made to beat Dear, as if he was anticipating the same strategy from M18M: bunker rush, scouting the natural, opening 1fact into 3rd, and building blind turrets seems like it would have simply crushed Dear's build, but against M18M it was definitely not the right strategy.
On March 22 2012 00:28 BlazeFury01 wrote: Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Alright you heard it here guys, BlazeFury01 understands that game better than Horang2 himself!
When you use 8 dragoons to kill 3 tanks, 5-6 marines and 3 vults, you are ahead.
Fact.
From there Flash had no army to stop P mass-expanding, took an early expo himself to try to abuse T's imba defense powers, and fell anyway to a sick stasis. Them's the breaks, but the game wasn't equal when that first push was crushed.
On March 20 2012 14:34 Zariel wrote: Flash actually draws a line a defense not where his front is, but about 1 screen back from the front line. He plays a mindgame with his opponent to show his defense is weak goading them to break through but end up taking massive losses once they breach the front.
If you haven't noticed, he tends to place around 3-4 tanks in his front line in which he does not mind losing, then he has like 7-10 tanks behind that line that rapes anything that tries to punch through. Seriously, it's as if he's playing starcraft on a 40" screen which he can see the whole map.
lol resolution is the same... you dont see more on a bigger monitory
I meant by he can see the map as a whole. Of course i know you still see the same amount of shit whether u have a 15" or a 40" screen.
On March 22 2012 00:28 BlazeFury01 wrote: Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Alright you heard it here guys, BlazeFury01 understands that game better than Horang2 himself!
When you use 8 dragoons to kill 3 tanks, 5-6 marines and 3 vults, you are ahead.
Fact.
From there Flash had no army to stop P mass-expanding, took an early expo himself to try to abuse T's imba defense powers, and fell anyway to a sick stasis. Them's the breaks, but the game wasn't equal when that first push was crushed.
Hey, I was just giving my point of view of the situation. There is no need for your sarcastic remarks in an attempt to belittle my analysis or because you may disagree with what I vividly explained. However, I will go into more detail about why the game was equalized before FlaSh decided to get a greedy third base.
Horang2 lost about 8 Dragoon and 4 probe from what I counted (possibly more but the camera angle prevented it).
This totals 1,200 and 400 Gas.
FlaSh lost 8 Marine, 2 Tanks (1 Tank got away) and 6 Vulture.
This totals 1,150 minerals and 200 Gas. Thus somewhat equalizing the game.
Horang2 lost 50 more minerals and 200 more Gas then FlaSh did on FlaShes push and also suffered the economic damage (losing probe).
And then the rest was explained in my previous post as to how Horang2 got ahead. Flash wasted 400 on a Command Center that wasn't lifted until Horang2 was able to get his own expansion up. Flash could have added on two more factory (2 with Machine shops, 2 without) with that extra 400 then expanded and that would have given him the defense he needed to prevent Horang2's bust.
Anyway,
Check out the comments under theMshady on my breakdown analysis of why FlaSh lost to dear and then read M18M's winners interview (second link) after he beat FlaSh and M18M mentions exactly what I was talking about in the dear game.
As an SC analyst, I disagree that cancelling the turrets is what killed flash. It contributed to his loss because of his worker count being reduced but it wasn't ultimately why he lost. Flash would have lost this game regardless if he cancelled the turrets or not. Reason being that Dear was already setting up for a bust as soon as flash took his 3rd. Flash was only on 2 Factory and Dears reaver only killed one vulture.In other words, Flash wouldn't have had the defense to defend the bust.
This map has a huge gap between the between the second and third bases. Flash would have needed one to two more factory (3 total. 2 Pumping vulture and 1 Pumping tank) to have comfortably secured defense. The mines would have provided a significant amount of defense. Since Flash started out with 2 factory tank, it reduced his vulture production thus not giving him enough defense to take his third in the first place.
I said this one day before M18M played flaSh.
On March 11 2012 09:39 Hesmyrr wrote: Victor: Air Force ACE Q: Therefore you came up with the idea of building gateways on the middle. StarDust: The tactic was planned in advance. I thought after getting to four gateways by building three in the center, it was possible to win with the usage of reaver and shuttles. At the timing where Flash double expands to the front and back, there are only two factories present. There's a moment when there is only three tanks. I was aiming for that timing but it was delayed due to the bunker rush. Still I proceeded on confident I could break his defenses and that made me win the game.
People talking about holding 4 bases as T just make me facepalm. You simply can't hold 4 bases vs a decent toss, recalls and good army movement from the P just crushes it. There is simply no timing window for T to be able to take a 4th unless its to solidify a already large advantage. The only player I have seen in the past have sucsess with it in the past was flash himself, but Ps are starting to realize that you can be really aggresive and punish quite easily any greedy play the T does, the days of Flash taking 3 bases off 2 facts are over.
I think the best solution is for Ts too start mixing it up to a great degree, doing a ton of 4 fact/5 fact pushes, maybe even bringing back some 6 fact pushes from the 2006 era with new infused timings. A lot how like Z handles P, a lot of cheesy all ins to keep the protoss honest so there standard play can be effective. I haven't been following BW as much as I would like to, but I hardly see Terrans doing 4/5 fact pushes anymore, something I would like to see.
On March 22 2012 03:38 gds wrote: To tvp specialists: can we consider the strategy used by flash against horang2 day3 as an all-in or would he be able to recover from it if he hadn't killed horang2 with that initial push?
Bio plays aren't as gimmicky as some people would have you believe just because they're not normal. Your question is kind of vague though because there are many levels of not killing Horang2 with the rush - for instance, he could have killed the nexus but lost the contain. In fact, he could have held the contain for any length of time between not setting it up and Horang2 mining himself out. This is similar to 2 fact rushes that hinge on whether the T can inch forward enough to kill the natural, and also whether the P can clear the contain.
If his push had died before he made it to Horang2's base, Flash really would have been in dire straits because he only had one factory in order to get the medics/barracks out so fast. A bio build having a transition basically means "is there time and money for me to build factories such that he can't just walk over me during the timing before my factories kick in." It's technically possible for Terran units to have fair chances in a biomech lategame (basically the point is the crux of P tech shifts from arbiter/carrier to templar/reaver). But in terms of mechanics the difficulty is similar to playing SK Terran against Jaedong and Effort at the same time. Sniper ridge should be conducive to transitions out of bio supposing you were playing a game that involved such a transition, which is really fun and doesn't confer any disadvantage per se. But the way Flash read the timing he had from Horang2's opening, the speed of his rush, how committed he was (only 1 factory), I can't say he would have been happy if his first push had died. That would entail losing both his positional advantage and his fledgling marine ball, and the three tanks which are quite an investment when they came from only 1 factory. But I've tried to word this so people don't get put off of bio in general, because it's a beautiful thing.
On March 22 2012 09:49 Reuental wrote: People talking about holding 4 bases as T just make me facepalm. You simply can't hold 4 bases vs a decent toss, recalls and good army movement from the P just crushes it. There is simply no timing window for T to be able to take a 4th unless its to solidify a already large advantage. The only player I have seen in the past have sucsess with it in the past was flash himself, but Ps are starting to realize that you can be really aggresive and punish quite easily any greedy play the T does, the days of Flash taking 3 bases off 2 facts are over.
I think the best solution is for Ts too start mixing it up to a great degree, doing a ton of 4 fact/5 fact pushes, maybe even bringing back some 6 fact pushes from the 2006 era with new infused timings. A lot how like Z handles P, a lot of cheesy all ins to keep the protoss honest so there standard play can be effective. I haven't been following BW as much as I would like to, but I hardly see Terrans doing 4/5 fact pushes anymore, something I would like to see.
It is possible to hold 4 bases but only in a split map situation like that FlaSh vs Stats rep on FS.
On March 22 2012 00:28 BlazeFury01 wrote: Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Alright you heard it here guys, BlazeFury01 understands that game better than Horang2 himself!
When you use 8 dragoons to kill 3 tanks, 5-6 marines and 3 vults, you are ahead.
Fact.
From there Flash had no army to stop P mass-expanding, took an early expo himself to try to abuse T's imba defense powers, and fell anyway to a sick stasis. Them's the breaks, but the game wasn't equal when that first push was crushed.
Hey, I was just giving my point of view of the situation. There is no need for your sarcastic remarks in an attempt to belittle my analysis or because you may disagree with what I vividly explained. However, I will go into more detail about why the game was equalized before FlaSh decided to get a greedy third base.
Horang2 lost about 8 Dragoon and 4 probe from what I counted (possibly more but the camera angle prevented it).
This totals 1,200 and 400 Gas.
FlaSh lost 8 Marine, 2 Tanks (1 Tank got away) and 6 Vulture.
This totals 1,150 minerals and 200 Gas. Thus somewhat equalizing the game.
Horang2 lost 50 more minerals and 200 more Gas then FlaSh did on FlaShes push and also suffered the economic damage (losing probe).
Flash was behind ever since his first push failed - he was very behind on supply since that moment, then it snowballed into a a bigger disadvantage with that early 3rd CC, lack of harass, etc.
On March 22 2012 09:49 Reuental wrote: People talking about holding 4 bases as T just make me facepalm. You simply can't hold 4 bases vs a decent toss, recalls and good army movement from the P just crushes it. There is simply no timing window for T to be able to take a 4th unless its to solidify a already large advantage. The only player I have seen in the past have sucsess with it in the past was flash himself, but Ps are starting to realize that you can be really aggresive and punish quite easily any greedy play the T does, the days of Flash taking 3 bases off 2 facts are over.
I think the best solution is for Ts too start mixing it up to a great degree, doing a ton of 4 fact/5 fact pushes, maybe even bringing back some 6 fact pushes from the 2006 era with new infused timings. A lot how like Z handles P, a lot of cheesy all ins to keep the protoss honest so there standard play can be effective. I haven't been following BW as much as I would like to, but I hardly see Terrans doing 4/5 fact pushes anymore, something I would like to see.
It is possible to hold 4 bases but only in a split map situation like that FlaSh vs Stats rep on FS.
Or on old maps like Coloseum and Katrina, for differing reasons, Colosseum because it's easy to chain the first three expansion bases together, Katrina because you can have one central defense point between the nat and third (and all protoss' go carrier on that map). Split map situations on non turtle friendly maps occur only when the terran gets an early advantage then aggressively turtles up (yes, aggressively turtling as in investing all of his resources into turtling up be it turrets or depot blocks) or if the protoss is to passive. See http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/35135_Flash_vs_Movie/vod
On March 22 2012 00:28 BlazeFury01 wrote: Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Alright you heard it here guys, BlazeFury01 understands that game better than Horang2 himself!
When you use 8 dragoons to kill 3 tanks, 5-6 marines and 3 vults, you are ahead.
Fact.
From there Flash had no army to stop P mass-expanding, took an early expo himself to try to abuse T's imba defense powers, and fell anyway to a sick stasis. Them's the breaks, but the game wasn't equal when that first push was crushed.
Hey, I was just giving my point of view of the situation. There is no need for your sarcastic remarks in an attempt to belittle my analysis or because you may disagree with what I vividly explained. However, I will go into more detail about why the game was equalized before FlaSh decided to get a greedy third base.
Horang2 lost about 8 Dragoon and 4 probe from what I counted (possibly more but the camera angle prevented it).
This totals 1,200 and 400 Gas.
FlaSh lost 8 Marine, 2 Tanks (1 Tank got away) and 6 Vulture.
This totals 1,150 minerals and 200 Gas. Thus somewhat equalizing the game.
Horang2 lost 50 more minerals and 200 more Gas then FlaSh did on FlaShes push and also suffered the economic damage (losing probe).
Flash was behind ever since his first push failed - he was very behind on supply since that moment, then it snowballed into a a bigger disadvantage with that early 3rd CC, lack of harass, etc.
Comparing resources when it's not a mirror match and where flash's push units were completely off normal timings and horang2's units were normal for gate + obs doesn't contribute to the argument either way. If a protoss commits to 2 gate opening vs a zerg and lost 4 zealots for 16 zerglings the game could be in any one's favor with out looking at the game. And looking at the game, Flash losing the push is what caused his third to be delayed due to no tank count.
On March 20 2012 14:09 endy wrote: I never understood why Flash has to cut corners that much. His late game is super good tanks to his macro and imba tank positioning. I mean the way he places tanks is so much superior than any other terran. Only his vulture usage is second to Fantasy's.
I never get tired of that game on Fighting Spirit against Stats, where Flash holds every maxed attack with 50 supply of pure tanks chilling in the opposite corner of the map.
which games is this? I would love to see a game between Flash and Stats
As for Flash vs Horang Episode 1, I believe that Flash's push getting dismantled left Horang2 rather far ahead --- he said as much in his interview.
Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Flashes problem occured when he tried to make a fast third base without having the defense to do it.
If you notice, Horang2 gets his 3rd expansion far after flash does. While flash was building his third base, Horang2 was investing all of his resources into units to prevent flash from getting a fast third base.
Horang2 then delayed flashes third base long enough for him to secure his own third at the same time thus putting Horang2 far ahead because he had the bigger army size (from building a late third & focusing those resources on units).
Flash scouted arbiter and because of this he wanted to get out faster science vessel to deal with it. Having his expansion delayed ruined the science vessel timing because he wasn't able to get that third gas as fast. That third gas was critical to Flashes strategy because it would have allowed him to throw down more factory while building siege tank and science vessel. Because Flash didn't get his third base as early as he wanted to he wasn't able to do all at once and it forced him to stay on five factory and one starport (not giving him that unit support he needed).
Horang2 knows that Flashes quick third strategy involves a lot of tank with a minimal vulture count. That's why he massed Zealots toward the end. In the end, Flash ended up getting broken.
Making the third after the failed push was the only choice flash had against an expanding protoss though, therefore his push failing did actually put horang2 ahead, significantly if you consider the strategy horang2 was going for which flash DID see with scans. There was no way that flash could have mustered the tank count again to make a 2 base push against horang2 that would outright kill him before horang2's third was up. Horang2 delaying tank's third base from securing was also because flash had no tank count and had no map control - from the failed push. No matter how you spin it the failed push put flash way behind, not equal.
On March 22 2012 00:28 BlazeFury01 wrote: Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Alright you heard it here guys, BlazeFury01 understands that game better than Horang2 himself!
When you use 8 dragoons to kill 3 tanks, 5-6 marines and 3 vults, you are ahead.
Fact.
From there Flash had no army to stop P mass-expanding, took an early expo himself to try to abuse T's imba defense powers, and fell anyway to a sick stasis. Them's the breaks, but the game wasn't equal when that first push was crushed.
Hey, I was just giving my point of view of the situation. There is no need for your sarcastic remarks in an attempt to belittle my analysis or because you may disagree with what I vividly explained. However, I will go into more detail about why the game was equalized before FlaSh decided to get a greedy third base.
Horang2 lost about 8 Dragoon and 4 probe from what I counted (possibly more but the camera angle prevented it).
This totals 1,200 and 400 Gas.
FlaSh lost 8 Marine, 2 Tanks (1 Tank got away) and 6 Vulture.
This totals 1,150 minerals and 200 Gas. Thus somewhat equalizing the game.
Horang2 lost 50 more minerals and 200 more Gas then FlaSh did on FlaShes push and also suffered the economic damage (losing probe).
Flash was behind ever since his first push failed - he was very behind on supply since that moment, then it snowballed into a a bigger disadvantage with that early 3rd CC, lack of harass, etc.
Comparing resources when it's not a mirror match and where flash's push units were completely off normal timings and horang2's units were normal for gate + obs doesn't contribute to the argument either way.
I put the resourses up there to show who won the engagement. The main point was the fact that Horang2 lost 8 Dragoon.
On March 22 2012 00:28 BlazeFury01 wrote: Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Alright you heard it here guys, BlazeFury01 understands that game better than Horang2 himself!
When you use 8 dragoons to kill 3 tanks, 5-6 marines and 3 vults, you are ahead.
Fact.
From there Flash had no army to stop P mass-expanding, took an early expo himself to try to abuse T's imba defense powers, and fell anyway to a sick stasis. Them's the breaks, but the game wasn't equal when that first push was crushed.
Hey, I was just giving my point of view of the situation. There is no need for your sarcastic remarks in an attempt to belittle my analysis or because you may disagree with what I vividly explained. However, I will go into more detail about why the game was equalized before FlaSh decided to get a greedy third base.
Horang2 lost about 8 Dragoon and 4 probe from what I counted (possibly more but the camera angle prevented it).
This totals 1,200 and 400 Gas.
FlaSh lost 8 Marine, 2 Tanks (1 Tank got away) and 6 Vulture.
This totals 1,150 minerals and 200 Gas. Thus somewhat equalizing the game.
Horang2 lost 50 more minerals and 200 more Gas then FlaSh did on FlaShes push and also suffered the economic damage (losing probe).
Flash was behind ever since his first push failed - he was very behind on supply since that moment, then it snowballed into a a bigger disadvantage with that early 3rd CC, lack of harass, etc.
Comparing resources when it's not a mirror match and where flash's push units were completely off normal timings and horang2's units were normal for gate + obs doesn't contribute to the argument either way.
I put the resourses up there to show who won the engagement. The main point was the fact that Horang2 lost 8 Dragoon.
Well the economy behind the engagement is entirely different, Horang2 with almost saturated 2 base and he didn't sacrifice economy / production. Which is why it's not relevant.
Edit: for example, flash didn't start harvesting from his second gas till 9:30~10:00. He only started putting up his 3rd and 4th factory and the second machine shop down then, normally terran has at least all of these production facilities up already at the 10:00 mark which is what allows them to go for the third.
As for Flash vs Horang Episode 1, I believe that Flash's push getting dismantled left Horang2 rather far ahead --- he said as much in his interview.
Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Flashes problem occured when he tried to make a fast third base without having the defense to do it.
If you notice, Horang2 gets his 3rd expansion far after flash does. While flash was building his third base, Horang2 was investing all of his resources into units to prevent flash from getting a fast third base.
Horang2 then delayed flashes third base long enough for him to secure his own third at the same time thus putting Horang2 far ahead because he had the bigger army size (from building a late third & focusing those resources on units).
Flash scouted arbiter and because of this he wanted to get out faster science vessel to deal with it. Having his expansion delayed ruined the science vessel timing because he wasn't able to get that third gas as fast. That third gas was critical to Flashes strategy because it would have allowed him to throw down more factory while building siege tank and science vessel. Because Flash didn't get his third base as early as he wanted to he wasn't able to do all at once and it forced him to stay on five factory and one starport (not giving him that unit support he needed).
Horang2 knows that Flashes quick third strategy involves a lot of tank with a minimal vulture count. That's why he massed Zealots toward the end. In the end, Flash ended up getting broken.
Making the third after the failed push was the only choice flash had against an expanding protoss though, therefore his push failing did actually put horang2 ahead, significantly if you consider the strategy horang2 was going for which flash DID see with scans. There was no way that flash could have mustered the tank count again to make a 2 base push against horang2 that would outright kill him before horang2's third was up. Horang2 delaying tank's third base from securing was also because flash had no tank count and had no map control - from the failed push. No matter how you spin it the failed push put flash way behind, not equal.
What put flash way behind was him sitting on two factory. You talk about flash dealing with an expanding protoss but that's just it, Horang2 didn't expand and Flash didn't scout/scan another expansion before throwing up his third command center.
Here's a VOD of flash failing with the exact same push.
As for Flash vs Horang Episode 1, I believe that Flash's push getting dismantled left Horang2 rather far ahead --- he said as much in his interview.
Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Flashes problem occured when he tried to make a fast third base without having the defense to do it.
If you notice, Horang2 gets his 3rd expansion far after flash does. While flash was building his third base, Horang2 was investing all of his resources into units to prevent flash from getting a fast third base.
Horang2 then delayed flashes third base long enough for him to secure his own third at the same time thus putting Horang2 far ahead because he had the bigger army size (from building a late third & focusing those resources on units).
Flash scouted arbiter and because of this he wanted to get out faster science vessel to deal with it. Having his expansion delayed ruined the science vessel timing because he wasn't able to get that third gas as fast. That third gas was critical to Flashes strategy because it would have allowed him to throw down more factory while building siege tank and science vessel. Because Flash didn't get his third base as early as he wanted to he wasn't able to do all at once and it forced him to stay on five factory and one starport (not giving him that unit support he needed).
Horang2 knows that Flashes quick third strategy involves a lot of tank with a minimal vulture count. That's why he massed Zealots toward the end. In the end, Flash ended up getting broken.
Making the third after the failed push was the only choice flash had against an expanding protoss though, therefore his push failing did actually put horang2 ahead, significantly if you consider the strategy horang2 was going for which flash DID see with scans. There was no way that flash could have mustered the tank count again to make a 2 base push against horang2 that would outright kill him before horang2's third was up. Horang2 delaying tank's third base from securing was also because flash had no tank count and had no map control - from the failed push. No matter how you spin it the failed push put flash way behind, not equal.
What put flash way behind was him sitting on two factory. You talk about flash dealing with an expanding protoss but that's just it, Horang2 didn't expand and Flash didn't scout/scan another expansion before throwing up his third command center.
Here's a VOD of flash failing with the exact same push.
The push timing required him to not take the second gas till the 10 min mark, he didn't even have a second machine shop up yet. He sacrificed economy and production, as I said, from the push. He didn't make the choice to have less production while having the resources to support the production, he didn't have the resources because of the push. He wasn't going to add factories while the push was happening. He started the factories as his push was cleaned up which is entirely logical.
As for Flash vs Horang Episode 1, I believe that Flash's push getting dismantled left Horang2 rather far ahead --- he said as much in his interview.
Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Flashes problem occured when he tried to make a fast third base without having the defense to do it.
If you notice, Horang2 gets his 3rd expansion far after flash does. While flash was building his third base, Horang2 was investing all of his resources into units to prevent flash from getting a fast third base.
Horang2 then delayed flashes third base long enough for him to secure his own third at the same time thus putting Horang2 far ahead because he had the bigger army size (from building a late third & focusing those resources on units).
Flash scouted arbiter and because of this he wanted to get out faster science vessel to deal with it. Having his expansion delayed ruined the science vessel timing because he wasn't able to get that third gas as fast. That third gas was critical to Flashes strategy because it would have allowed him to throw down more factory while building siege tank and science vessel. Because Flash didn't get his third base as early as he wanted to he wasn't able to do all at once and it forced him to stay on five factory and one starport (not giving him that unit support he needed).
Horang2 knows that Flashes quick third strategy involves a lot of tank with a minimal vulture count. That's why he massed Zealots toward the end. In the end, Flash ended up getting broken.
Making the third after the failed push was the only choice flash had against an expanding protoss though, therefore his push failing did actually put horang2 ahead, significantly if you consider the strategy horang2 was going for which flash DID see with scans. There was no way that flash could have mustered the tank count again to make a 2 base push against horang2 that would outright kill him before horang2's third was up. Horang2 delaying tank's third base from securing was also because flash had no tank count and had no map control - from the failed push. No matter how you spin it the failed push put flash way behind, not equal.
What put flash way behind was him sitting on two factory. You talk about flash dealing with an expanding protoss but that's just it, Horang2 didn't expand and Flash didn't scout/scan another expansion before throwing up his third command center.
Here's a VOD of flash failing with the exact same push.
The push timing required him to not take the second gas till the 10 min mark, he didn't even have a second machine shop up yet. He sacrificed economy and production, as I said, from the push. He didn't make the choice to have less production while having the resources to support the production, he didn't have the resources because of the push. He wasn't going to add factories while the push was happening. He started the factories as his push was cleaned up which is entirely logical.
He had 3 Factory (check the 7:30 mark) before his expansion not two like he did against Horang2 and that extra factory made a difference for his expansion. He added "extra" factory after his expansion.
Basically it was the same senario in the two games the only difference was that flash had 3 factory and was able to consistantly produce vulture to keep Jangbi defensive while against Horang2 he only had two factory and chose to play defensive while getting a much faster expand. I totally see your point though bro!
As for Flash vs Horang Episode 1, I believe that Flash's push getting dismantled left Horang2 rather far ahead --- he said as much in his interview.
Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Flashes problem occured when he tried to make a fast third base without having the defense to do it.
If you notice, Horang2 gets his 3rd expansion far after flash does. While flash was building his third base, Horang2 was investing all of his resources into units to prevent flash from getting a fast third base.
Horang2 then delayed flashes third base long enough for him to secure his own third at the same time thus putting Horang2 far ahead because he had the bigger army size (from building a late third & focusing those resources on units).
Flash scouted arbiter and because of this he wanted to get out faster science vessel to deal with it. Having his expansion delayed ruined the science vessel timing because he wasn't able to get that third gas as fast. That third gas was critical to Flashes strategy because it would have allowed him to throw down more factory while building siege tank and science vessel. Because Flash didn't get his third base as early as he wanted to he wasn't able to do all at once and it forced him to stay on five factory and one starport (not giving him that unit support he needed).
Horang2 knows that Flashes quick third strategy involves a lot of tank with a minimal vulture count. That's why he massed Zealots toward the end. In the end, Flash ended up getting broken.
Making the third after the failed push was the only choice flash had against an expanding protoss though, therefore his push failing did actually put horang2 ahead, significantly if you consider the strategy horang2 was going for which flash DID see with scans. There was no way that flash could have mustered the tank count again to make a 2 base push against horang2 that would outright kill him before horang2's third was up. Horang2 delaying tank's third base from securing was also because flash had no tank count and had no map control - from the failed push. No matter how you spin it the failed push put flash way behind, not equal.
What put flash way behind was him sitting on two factory. You talk about flash dealing with an expanding protoss but that's just it, Horang2 didn't expand and Flash didn't scout/scan another expansion before throwing up his third command center.
Here's a VOD of flash failing with the exact same push.
The push timing required him to not take the second gas till the 10 min mark, he didn't even have a second machine shop up yet. He sacrificed economy and production, as I said, from the push. He didn't make the choice to have less production while having the resources to support the production, he didn't have the resources because of the push. He wasn't going to add factories while the push was happening. He started the factories as his push was cleaned up which is entirely logical.
He had 3 Factory (check the 7:30 mark) before his expansion not two like he did against Horang2 and that extra factory made a difference for his expansion. He added "extra" factory after his expansion.
Vs Horang2: http://i.imgur.com/uVRSN.png I'm looking at the game vs Jangbi, the problem between comparing the two builds though is that flash already started his third vs Horang2 at 10 min and he didn't vs jangbi because he saw shuttle / reaver tech and didn't build his third till he was sure he could defend against that. Flash's response is actually correct in both games vs the two different builds. The fact I want to make was that the push put him behind, it also put him behind vs Jangbi but he equalized that vs Jangbi because he defended the reaver drop, he had no chance to vs Horang2.The only chance he had of equalizing it was exactly what he did, the fast third which started before the additional factories.
Edit: I read your edit but they aren't the same scenarios as outlined above. Jangbi wasn't defensive because of vultures from the third factory, Jangbi was on the offensive with double shuttle reaver drop which is a huge investment.
On March 22 2012 09:30 BlazeFury01 wrote: Hey, I was just giving my point of view of the situation. There is no need for your sarcastic remarks in an attempt to belittle my analysis or because you may disagree with what I vividly explained.
...
In other words, I have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to prove me wrong.
But that's just it, it's not just me (and other KT Fans even) disagreeing with you here, it's Horang2 himself! The guy who took down the world's #1 player! You can make a claim to understand the game better than me, you might even be right, but I don't think you can claim to know the game better than Horang2.
And as other people have already pointed out, comparing resources means nothing. All it takes is a look at the food counter. Flash is on 52, Horang2 53. After, Flash is on 39, Horang2 is on... 53. When the vultures are cleaned up, it's 40 vs 57.
This means Flash is in a worse position when the fight was over, compared to when he started. For sure. So the only way the push could "equalise the game" is if Flash was initially ahead. I wouldn't say he was.
And if Horang2 wasn't so sloppy with mines, it would be an even more pronounced difference.
As for Flash vs Horang Episode 1, I believe that Flash's push getting dismantled left Horang2 rather far ahead --- he said as much in his interview.
Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Flashes problem occured when he tried to make a fast third base without having the defense to do it.
If you notice, Horang2 gets his 3rd expansion far after flash does. While flash was building his third base, Horang2 was investing all of his resources into units to prevent flash from getting a fast third base.
Horang2 then delayed flashes third base long enough for him to secure his own third at the same time thus putting Horang2 far ahead because he had the bigger army size (from building a late third & focusing those resources on units).
Flash scouted arbiter and because of this he wanted to get out faster science vessel to deal with it. Having his expansion delayed ruined the science vessel timing because he wasn't able to get that third gas as fast. That third gas was critical to Flashes strategy because it would have allowed him to throw down more factory while building siege tank and science vessel. Because Flash didn't get his third base as early as he wanted to he wasn't able to do all at once and it forced him to stay on five factory and one starport (not giving him that unit support he needed).
Horang2 knows that Flashes quick third strategy involves a lot of tank with a minimal vulture count. That's why he massed Zealots toward the end. In the end, Flash ended up getting broken.
Making the third after the failed push was the only choice flash had against an expanding protoss though, therefore his push failing did actually put horang2 ahead, significantly if you consider the strategy horang2 was going for which flash DID see with scans. There was no way that flash could have mustered the tank count again to make a 2 base push against horang2 that would outright kill him before horang2's third was up. Horang2 delaying tank's third base from securing was also because flash had no tank count and had no map control - from the failed push. No matter how you spin it the failed push put flash way behind, not equal.
What put flash way behind was him sitting on two factory. You talk about flash dealing with an expanding protoss but that's just it, Horang2 didn't expand and Flash didn't scout/scan another expansion before throwing up his third command center.
Here's a VOD of flash failing with the exact same push.
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg. Anything more than the 3 safe bases and possibly 4th expansion toward enemy is unrealistic unless terran is already in an advantegous spot (like the slightly imbalanced mech transition build tends to be on current maps).
Same for protoss against zerg. This is why all the 2-3 base timing commitment. Because the faster races have mastered the tactics of abusing immobility of slow race and getting them out of position to destroy far away expansions.
On March 22 2012 00:28 BlazeFury01 wrote: Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Alright you heard it here guys, BlazeFury01 understands that game better than Horang2 himself!
When you use 8 dragoons to kill 3 tanks, 5-6 marines and 3 vults, you are ahead.
Fact.
From there Flash had no army to stop P mass-expanding, took an early expo himself to try to abuse T's imba defense powers, and fell anyway to a sick stasis. Them's the breaks, but the game wasn't equal when that first push was crushed.
Hey, I was just giving my point of view of the situation. There is no need for your sarcastic remarks in an attempt to belittle my analysis or because you may disagree with what I vividly explained. However, I will go into more detail about why the game was equalized before FlaSh decided to get a greedy third base.
Horang2 lost about 8 Dragoon and 4 probe from what I counted (possibly more but the camera angle prevented it).
This totals 1,200 and 400 Gas.
FlaSh lost 8 Marine, 2 Tanks (1 Tank got away) and 6 Vulture.
This totals 1,150 minerals and 200 Gas. Thus somewhat equalizing the game.
Horang2 lost 50 more minerals and 200 more Gas then FlaSh did on FlaShes push and also suffered the economic damage (losing probe).
And then the rest was explained in my previous post as to how Horang2 got ahead. Flash wasted 400 on a Command Center that wasn't lifted until Horang2 was able to get his own expansion up. Flash could have added on two more factory (2 with Machine shops, 2 without) with that extra 400 then expanded and that would have given him the defense he needed to prevent Horang2's bust.
Anyway,
Check out the comments under theMshady on my breakdown analysis of why FlaSh lost to dear and then read M18M's winners interview (second link) after he beat FlaSh and M18M mentions exactly what I was talking about in the dear game.
As an SC analyst, I disagree that cancelling the turrets is what killed flash. It contributed to his loss because of his worker count being reduced but it wasn't ultimately why he lost. Flash would have lost this game regardless if he cancelled the turrets or not. Reason being that Dear was already setting up for a bust as soon as flash took his 3rd. Flash was only on 2 Factory and Dears reaver only killed one vulture.In other words, Flash wouldn't have had the defense to defend the bust.
This map has a huge gap between the between the second and third bases. Flash would have needed one to two more factory (3 total. 2 Pumping vulture and 1 Pumping tank) to have comfortably secured defense. The mines would have provided a significant amount of defense. Since Flash started out with 2 factory tank, it reduced his vulture production thus not giving him enough defense to take his third in the first place.
On March 11 2012 09:39 Hesmyrr wrote: Victor: Air Force ACE Q: Therefore you came up with the idea of building gateways on the middle. StarDust: The tactic was planned in advance. I thought after getting to four gateways by building three in the center, it was possible to win with the usage of reaver and shuttles. At the timing where Flash double expands to the front and back, there are only two factories present. There's a moment when there is only three tanks. I was aiming for that timing but it was delayed due to the bunker rush. Still I proceeded on confident I could break his defenses and that made me win the game.
In other words, I have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to prove me wrong.
Terrans gather minerals 20% slower than protoss, have less workers at duty due to building mechanic and have more expensive production buildings. In addition, their army size increases has AUGMENTED returns, unlike the diminishing returns of the other 2 races. And these conditions cause a feedback loop that cause the conditions to progressively become worse over the course of the game. Because of this, an army trade of anywhere near comparable numbers is almost always bad for terran and if a push faiils to do serious damage they are in trouble even if they can gather another push later.
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg. Anything more than the 3 safe bases and possibly 4th expansion toward enemy is unrealistic unless terran is already in an advantegous spot (like the slightly imbalanced mech transition build tends to be on current maps).
Same for protoss against zerg. This is why all the 2-3 base timing commitment. Because the faster races have mastered the tactics of abusing immobility of slow race and getting them out of position to destroy far away expansions.
Erm, yea? And I listed the reasons why it's almost impossible. "Reliable" is in quotations for a reason. You have to do it against a faster expanding protoss while having no reliable means of harassment. 3 base doom push is popular because if you don't end the game then you are forced to essentially completely be winging the game where the only strategy is to out resource the opponent by taking half the map, you have to react to every move the protoss makes and hope that the toss doesn't break your line of defense any where. It rarely ever works out, the only good example recently from the top of my head is http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/75270_Bogus_vs_Stats/vod Nearly all standards PvT's end between the 15 - 25 minute mark because of this reason, either the terran wins by early game aggression, 3 base push or dies from the failed push / counter attack. If you read my other comments in this thread I also touch on the fact that all new terran strategies are early game 1-2 base aggression builds that are aimed at gathering a significant enough advantage to either end the game out right or give the terran ability to expand at will.
On March 22 2012 18:08 storkfan wrote:This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg.
What are you talking about? The entire last season was dominated by 5-6 base mech plays. You can definitly hold 5-6 bases vs zerg no problem.
On March 22 2012 18:08 storkfan wrote:This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg.
What are you talking about? The entire last season was dominated by 5-6 base mech plays. You can definitly hold 5-6 bases vs zerg no problem.
Yea, because terran still has very viable harassment / economy denying strategies vs zerg in form of m&m/vulture drop / vulture harass / out right denying the base. Harassing vs protoss is unreliable because it depends on the protoss messing up, either not making cannons / not blocking a key choke / not having map presence. Zergs have vaccums while /shortly after a hatchery is morphing where it's defenseless or just can't devote the forces to defend it, protoss' don't have that problem if their secondary gateway hub is rallied there or if they have cannons, both of which are standard protoss play.
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg. Anything more than the 3 safe bases and possibly 4th expansion toward enemy is unrealistic unless terran is already in an advantegous spot (like the slightly imbalanced mech transition build tends to be on current maps).
Same for protoss against zerg. This is why all the 2-3 base timing commitment. Because the faster races have mastered the tactics of abusing immobility of slow race and getting them out of position to destroy far away expansions.
Erm, yea? And I listed the reasons why it's almost impossible. "Reliable" is in quotations for a reason. You have to do it against a faster expanding protoss while having no reliable means of harassment. 3 base doom push is popular because if you don't end the game then you are forced to essentially completely be winging the game where the only strategy is to out resource the opponent by taking half the map, you have to react to every move the protoss makes and hope that the toss doesn't break your line of defense any where. It rarely ever works out, the only good example recently from the top of my head is http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/75270_Bogus_vs_Stats/vod Nearly all standards PvT's end between the 15 - 25 minute mark because of this reason, either the terran wins by early game aggression, 3 base push or dies from the failed push / counter attack. If you read my other comments in this thread I also touch on the fact that all new terran strategies are early game 1-2 base aggression builds that are aimed at gathering a significant enough advantage to either end the game out right or give the terran ability to expand at will.
You said in your original post that "3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game" but now you say that "Nearly all standards PvT's end between the 15 - 25 minute mark because of this reason, either the terran wins by early game aggression, 3 base push or dies from the failed push / counter attack". Isnt that contradictory..?
On March 22 2012 18:08 storkfan wrote:This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg.
What are you talking about? The entire last season was dominated by 5-6 base mech plays. You can definitly hold 5-6 bases vs zerg no problem.
Show me one game where that happens, while zerg is not far behind terran in supply. Because that is what an open game is. Otherwise the mass bases is just insurance policy to finish an already won game and has little bearing on actual optimal tactical developments.
On March 22 2012 20:23 shaftofpleasure wrote: Why aren't zerg stopping mech with Muta/ling play? Valks? they can kill valks with scourge. I really don't get it.
mutas work mid game because both sides are with low upgrades. but in late game 0-0 mutas get owned by even a couple of 3-3 gols. Gol upgrades are just that effective. And 0 attack mutas only do 5 dmg to upg mech so it takes forever to kill stuff, hence limiting the viability of the element of surprise.
On March 22 2012 23:28 storkfan wrote: mutas work mid game because both sides are with low upgrades. but in late game 0-0 mutas get owned by even a couple of 3-3 gols. Gol upgrades are just that effective. And 0 attack mutas only do 5 dmg to upg mech so it takes forever to kill stuff, hence limiting the viability of the element of surprise.
Also Vessel makes them obsolete in the lategame, as stated before
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg. Anything more than the 3 safe bases and possibly 4th expansion toward enemy is unrealistic unless terran is already in an advantegous spot (like the slightly imbalanced mech transition build tends to be on current maps).
Same for protoss against zerg. This is why all the 2-3 base timing commitment. Because the faster races have mastered the tactics of abusing immobility of slow race and getting them out of position to destroy far away expansions.
Erm, yea? And I listed the reasons why it's almost impossible. "Reliable" is in quotations for a reason. You have to do it against a faster expanding protoss while having no reliable means of harassment. 3 base doom push is popular because if you don't end the game then you are forced to essentially completely be winging the game where the only strategy is to out resource the opponent by taking half the map, you have to react to every move the protoss makes and hope that the toss doesn't break your line of defense any where. It rarely ever works out, the only good example recently from the top of my head is http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/75270_Bogus_vs_Stats/vod Nearly all standards PvT's end between the 15 - 25 minute mark because of this reason, either the terran wins by early game aggression, 3 base push or dies from the failed push / counter attack. If you read my other comments in this thread I also touch on the fact that all new terran strategies are early game 1-2 base aggression builds that are aimed at gathering a significant enough advantage to either end the game out right or give the terran ability to expand at will.
You said in your original post that "3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game" but now you say that "Nearly all standards PvT's end between the 15 - 25 minute mark because of this reason, either the terran wins by early game aggression, 3 base push or dies from the failed push / counter attack". Isnt that contradictory..?
On March 22 2012 18:08 storkfan wrote:This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg.
What are you talking about? The entire last season was dominated by 5-6 base mech plays. You can definitly hold 5-6 bases vs zerg no problem.
Show me one game where that happens, while zerg is not far behind terran in supply. Because that is what an open game is. Otherwise the mass bases is just insurance policy to finish an already won game and has little bearing on actual optimal tactical developments.
?? if zerg isn't far behind terran in supply he's actually ahead and probably winning the game
If you haven't noticed Flash fox's a lot. Unlike others he is always thinking many games ahead and I feel like he intentionally plays badly before important games. I always notice Flash does stupid things in proleague and then completely smashes the same opponent in following individual league games.
He skipped turrets and lost against hidden robo 3 games in a row. Against Jangbi he does a 14cc baits the proxy robo and builds twice as many turrets as he needs to and beats him with pure tank marine.
This guy could seriously make millions playing poker T_T
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg. Anything more than the 3 safe bases and possibly 4th expansion toward enemy is unrealistic unless terran is already in an advantegous spot (like the slightly imbalanced mech transition build tends to be on current maps).
Same for protoss against zerg. This is why all the 2-3 base timing commitment. Because the faster races have mastered the tactics of abusing immobility of slow race and getting them out of position to destroy far away expansions.
Erm, yea? And I listed the reasons why it's almost impossible. "Reliable" is in quotations for a reason. You have to do it against a faster expanding protoss while having no reliable means of harassment. 3 base doom push is popular because if you don't end the game then you are forced to essentially completely be winging the game where the only strategy is to out resource the opponent by taking half the map, you have to react to every move the protoss makes and hope that the toss doesn't break your line of defense any where. It rarely ever works out, the only good example recently from the top of my head is http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/75270_Bogus_vs_Stats/vod Nearly all standards PvT's end between the 15 - 25 minute mark because of this reason, either the terran wins by early game aggression, 3 base push or dies from the failed push / counter attack. If you read my other comments in this thread I also touch on the fact that all new terran strategies are early game 1-2 base aggression builds that are aimed at gathering a significant enough advantage to either end the game out right or give the terran ability to expand at will.
You said in your original post that "3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game" but now you say that "Nearly all standards PvT's end between the 15 - 25 minute mark because of this reason, either the terran wins by early game aggression, 3 base push or dies from the failed push / counter attack". Isnt that contradictory..?
On March 22 2012 18:08 storkfan wrote:This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg.
What are you talking about? The entire last season was dominated by 5-6 base mech plays. You can definitly hold 5-6 bases vs zerg no problem.
Show me one game where that happens, while zerg is not far behind terran in supply. Because that is what an open game is. Otherwise the mass bases is just insurance policy to finish an already won game and has little bearing on actual optimal tactical developments.
How is this contradictory? It becomes an uncertainty as to who will win the game from the terran's perspective, he has to capitalize on the protoss' bad play / respond to what ever tech the protoss throws at him, the game becomes a complete guerrilla fight to see who can defend / kill bases. Perfect example of this is :
Sorry if i was not clear about this point, I should have said that if you do not win at that point it becomes an uncertainty what strategies the terran can reliably use to win.
On March 26 2012 14:38 sluggaslamoo wrote: If you haven't noticed Flash fox's a lot. Unlike others he is always thinking many games ahead and I feel like he intentionally plays badly before important games. I always notice Flash does stupid things in proleague and then completely smashes the same opponent in following individual league games.
He skipped turrets and lost against hidden robo 3 games in a row. Against Jangbi he does a 14cc baits the proxy robo and builds twice as many turrets as he needs to and beats him with pure tank marine.
This guy could seriously make millions playing poker T_T
Your level of delusion is seriously off the charts.
On March 26 2012 14:38 sluggaslamoo wrote: If you haven't noticed Flash fox's a lot. Unlike others he is always thinking many games ahead and I feel like he intentionally plays badly before important games. I always notice Flash does stupid things in proleague and then completely smashes the same opponent in following individual league games.
He skipped turrets and lost against hidden robo 3 games in a row. Against Jangbi he does a 14cc baits the proxy robo and builds twice as many turrets as he needs to and beats him with pure tank marine.
This guy could seriously make millions playing poker T_T
Your level of delusion is seriously off the charts.
Now now play nice, the observation is dumb because if a pro gamer throws a game on purpose it's game fixing and illegal, not because the poster is delusional. A player may choose to hid his strategy until the key games but never purposefully play badly.
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg. Anything more than the 3 safe bases and possibly 4th expansion toward enemy is unrealistic unless terran is already in an advantegous spot (like the slightly imbalanced mech transition build tends to be on current maps).
Same for protoss against zerg. This is why all the 2-3 base timing commitment. Because the faster races have mastered the tactics of abusing immobility of slow race and getting them out of position to destroy far away expansions.
Erm, yea? And I listed the reasons why it's almost impossible. "Reliable" is in quotations for a reason. You have to do it against a faster expanding protoss while having no reliable means of harassment. 3 base doom push is popular because if you don't end the game then you are forced to essentially completely be winging the game where the only strategy is to out resource the opponent by taking half the map, you have to react to every move the protoss makes and hope that the toss doesn't break your line of defense any where. It rarely ever works out, the only good example recently from the top of my head is http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/75270_Bogus_vs_Stats/vod Nearly all standards PvT's end between the 15 - 25 minute mark because of this reason, either the terran wins by early game aggression, 3 base push or dies from the failed push / counter attack. If you read my other comments in this thread I also touch on the fact that all new terran strategies are early game 1-2 base aggression builds that are aimed at gathering a significant enough advantage to either end the game out right or give the terran ability to expand at will.
You said in your original post that "3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game" but now you say that "Nearly all standards PvT's end between the 15 - 25 minute mark because of this reason, either the terran wins by early game aggression, 3 base push or dies from the failed push / counter attack". Isnt that contradictory..?
On March 22 2012 18:35 Reuental wrote:
On March 22 2012 18:08 storkfan wrote:This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg.
What are you talking about? The entire last season was dominated by 5-6 base mech plays. You can definitly hold 5-6 bases vs zerg no problem.
Show me one game where that happens, while zerg is not far behind terran in supply. Because that is what an open game is. Otherwise the mass bases is just insurance policy to finish an already won game and has little bearing on actual optimal tactical developments.
?? if zerg isn't far behind terran in supply he's actually ahead and probably winning the game
Flash vs Effort, Canata vs Jaedong, Firebathero vs Action, Roro vs Piano, Zero vs Fantasy during last MSL, Flash vs Zero MSL final game 3... etc etc etc. Also as stated, zerg base satuation as well as pop while teching up is always going to be lower than the terran, if the zerg has more pop than the terran in the early game something is dreadfully wrong because he's completely neglecting tech for an all in or the terran got successfully 5/9 pooled.
On March 26 2012 14:38 sluggaslamoo wrote: If you haven't noticed Flash fox's a lot. Unlike others he is always thinking many games ahead and I feel like he intentionally plays badly before important games. I always notice Flash does stupid things in proleague and then completely smashes the same opponent in following individual league games.
He skipped turrets and lost against hidden robo 3 games in a row. Against Jangbi he does a 14cc baits the proxy robo and builds twice as many turrets as he needs to and beats him with pure tank marine.
This guy could seriously make millions playing poker T_T
Your level of delusion is seriously off the charts.
Now now play nice, the observation is dumb because if a pro gamer throws a game on purpose it's game fixing and illegal, not because the poster is delusional. A player may choose to hid his strategy until the key games but never purposefully play badly.
Maybe I am delusional, but it seriously seems that way. He seems to play badly before key matches start to happen, whether or not hes trying to experiment while hes ahead, and then come up with the perfected build in the end i don't know, but it seems to be a pattern of Flash. I mentioned foxing, I didn't mean to imply throwing games, I meant intentionally showing a weakness that you intend to abuse later on. I don't think Flash intended to lose those games.
Remember when he 14cc'd many games and lost, later on he does the exact same thing and 3:0's the Grand Final. Whether or not this is throwing games or not I don't know, but it seems like foxing to me. Otherwise why would you do a build that has a high rate of losing in the most important matches of your career? (3 times in a row)
Even though throwing games in sports is illegal, foxing happens a lot where mindgames play an essential role.
Every game except possibly a few at the end of a proleague season is important.
When Flash lost a whole bunch of games to 14cc, were people suggesting "oh well, he's just screwing around, it doesn't matter"?
No, even his fans were like WTF FLASH WAT R U DOIN?!
But now you look back and see that he had that rough patch, but is still a good player anyway, and say "maybe it was on purpose".
@ Caihead: I don't think throwing a game is illegal, if there's no money involved. You can't punish someone for only trying 50% because they don't like a certain map, or they feel the opening builds mean they've already lost.
On March 26 2012 15:39 Turbovolver wrote: But this is all confirmation bias.
Every game except possibly a few at the end of a proleague season is important.
When Flash lost a whole bunch of games to 14cc, were people suggesting "oh well, he's just screwing around, it doesn't matter"?
No, even his fans were like WTF FLASH WAT R U DOIN?!
But now you look back and see that he had that rough patch, but is still a good player anyway, and say "maybe it was on purpose".
@ Caihead: I don't think throwing a game is illegal, if there's no money involved. You can't punish someone for only trying 50% because they don't like a certain map, or they feel the opening builds mean they've already lost.
Throwing a game is at least immoral if not illegal though, because the teams / players are corporate representations. If the teams perform badly / don't generate the proper attention for the corporations the sponsors do pull out, and if that was done on purpose then it's very questionable behaviour, if not illegal it would at least lead to management discipline. Obviously it's extremely difficult to track actual media representation / advertising effects and its impact from the point of view of the sponsors, but any professional athlete or player would / should be punished for purposefully throwing a game in a team environment. Players may make tactical decisions like doing an all in or a risky economical build if they feel like they've already lost to regain the advantage because most BW players have salaries that are also based on their performance quotas (win x number of games, contribute to the team's victories in team league at the ace match, so on) beside the base salary.
Foxing is very dubious because you can achieve the same type of effect by saying things in interviews outside of the games (which flash has admitted to doing), without jeopardizing the integrity of your games or leading to people questioning rather you have been throwing the games. This technique would be common during offline matches or practice matches, doing it in a televised match where your personal reputation or salary depends on it is highly unlikely.
The terminator doesn't know how to throw games. His mentality is about winning isn't it? The most I can see happening is that he doesn't use a particular strat. in order to save it for later. At most. That shouldn't mean however that he is throwing the match or anything.
EPT
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