On March 22 2012 00:28 BlazeFury01 wrote: Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Alright you heard it here guys, BlazeFury01 understands that game better than Horang2 himself!
When you use 8 dragoons to kill 3 tanks, 5-6 marines and 3 vults, you are ahead.
Fact.
From there Flash had no army to stop P mass-expanding, took an early expo himself to try to abuse T's imba defense powers, and fell anyway to a sick stasis. Them's the breaks, but the game wasn't equal when that first push was crushed.
Hey, I was just giving my point of view of the situation. There is no need for your sarcastic remarks in an attempt to belittle my analysis or because you may disagree with what I vividly explained. However, I will go into more detail about why the game was equalized before FlaSh decided to get a greedy third base.
Horang2 lost about 8 Dragoon and 4 probe from what I counted (possibly more but the camera angle prevented it).
This totals 1,200 and 400 Gas.
FlaSh lost 8 Marine, 2 Tanks (1 Tank got away) and 6 Vulture.
This totals 1,150 minerals and 200 Gas. Thus somewhat equalizing the game.
Horang2 lost 50 more minerals and 200 more Gas then FlaSh did on FlaShes push and also suffered the economic damage (losing probe).
Flash was behind ever since his first push failed - he was very behind on supply since that moment, then it snowballed into a a bigger disadvantage with that early 3rd CC, lack of harass, etc.
On March 22 2012 09:49 Reuental wrote: People talking about holding 4 bases as T just make me facepalm. You simply can't hold 4 bases vs a decent toss, recalls and good army movement from the P just crushes it. There is simply no timing window for T to be able to take a 4th unless its to solidify a already large advantage. The only player I have seen in the past have sucsess with it in the past was flash himself, but Ps are starting to realize that you can be really aggresive and punish quite easily any greedy play the T does, the days of Flash taking 3 bases off 2 facts are over.
I think the best solution is for Ts too start mixing it up to a great degree, doing a ton of 4 fact/5 fact pushes, maybe even bringing back some 6 fact pushes from the 2006 era with new infused timings. A lot how like Z handles P, a lot of cheesy all ins to keep the protoss honest so there standard play can be effective. I haven't been following BW as much as I would like to, but I hardly see Terrans doing 4/5 fact pushes anymore, something I would like to see.
It is possible to hold 4 bases but only in a split map situation like that FlaSh vs Stats rep on FS.
Or on old maps like Coloseum and Katrina, for differing reasons, Colosseum because it's easy to chain the first three expansion bases together, Katrina because you can have one central defense point between the nat and third (and all protoss' go carrier on that map). Split map situations on non turtle friendly maps occur only when the terran gets an early advantage then aggressively turtles up (yes, aggressively turtling as in investing all of his resources into turtling up be it turrets or depot blocks) or if the protoss is to passive. See http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/35135_Flash_vs_Movie/vod
On March 22 2012 00:28 BlazeFury01 wrote: Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Alright you heard it here guys, BlazeFury01 understands that game better than Horang2 himself!
When you use 8 dragoons to kill 3 tanks, 5-6 marines and 3 vults, you are ahead.
Fact.
From there Flash had no army to stop P mass-expanding, took an early expo himself to try to abuse T's imba defense powers, and fell anyway to a sick stasis. Them's the breaks, but the game wasn't equal when that first push was crushed.
Hey, I was just giving my point of view of the situation. There is no need for your sarcastic remarks in an attempt to belittle my analysis or because you may disagree with what I vividly explained. However, I will go into more detail about why the game was equalized before FlaSh decided to get a greedy third base.
Horang2 lost about 8 Dragoon and 4 probe from what I counted (possibly more but the camera angle prevented it).
This totals 1,200 and 400 Gas.
FlaSh lost 8 Marine, 2 Tanks (1 Tank got away) and 6 Vulture.
This totals 1,150 minerals and 200 Gas. Thus somewhat equalizing the game.
Horang2 lost 50 more minerals and 200 more Gas then FlaSh did on FlaShes push and also suffered the economic damage (losing probe).
Flash was behind ever since his first push failed - he was very behind on supply since that moment, then it snowballed into a a bigger disadvantage with that early 3rd CC, lack of harass, etc.
Comparing resources when it's not a mirror match and where flash's push units were completely off normal timings and horang2's units were normal for gate + obs doesn't contribute to the argument either way. If a protoss commits to 2 gate opening vs a zerg and lost 4 zealots for 16 zerglings the game could be in any one's favor with out looking at the game. And looking at the game, Flash losing the push is what caused his third to be delayed due to no tank count.
On March 20 2012 14:09 endy wrote: I never understood why Flash has to cut corners that much. His late game is super good tanks to his macro and imba tank positioning. I mean the way he places tanks is so much superior than any other terran. Only his vulture usage is second to Fantasy's.
I never get tired of that game on Fighting Spirit against Stats, where Flash holds every maxed attack with 50 supply of pure tanks chilling in the opposite corner of the map.
which games is this? I would love to see a game between Flash and Stats
As for Flash vs Horang Episode 1, I believe that Flash's push getting dismantled left Horang2 rather far ahead --- he said as much in his interview.
Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Flashes problem occured when he tried to make a fast third base without having the defense to do it.
If you notice, Horang2 gets his 3rd expansion far after flash does. While flash was building his third base, Horang2 was investing all of his resources into units to prevent flash from getting a fast third base.
Horang2 then delayed flashes third base long enough for him to secure his own third at the same time thus putting Horang2 far ahead because he had the bigger army size (from building a late third & focusing those resources on units).
Flash scouted arbiter and because of this he wanted to get out faster science vessel to deal with it. Having his expansion delayed ruined the science vessel timing because he wasn't able to get that third gas as fast. That third gas was critical to Flashes strategy because it would have allowed him to throw down more factory while building siege tank and science vessel. Because Flash didn't get his third base as early as he wanted to he wasn't able to do all at once and it forced him to stay on five factory and one starport (not giving him that unit support he needed).
Horang2 knows that Flashes quick third strategy involves a lot of tank with a minimal vulture count. That's why he massed Zealots toward the end. In the end, Flash ended up getting broken.
Making the third after the failed push was the only choice flash had against an expanding protoss though, therefore his push failing did actually put horang2 ahead, significantly if you consider the strategy horang2 was going for which flash DID see with scans. There was no way that flash could have mustered the tank count again to make a 2 base push against horang2 that would outright kill him before horang2's third was up. Horang2 delaying tank's third base from securing was also because flash had no tank count and had no map control - from the failed push. No matter how you spin it the failed push put flash way behind, not equal.
On March 22 2012 00:28 BlazeFury01 wrote: Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Alright you heard it here guys, BlazeFury01 understands that game better than Horang2 himself!
When you use 8 dragoons to kill 3 tanks, 5-6 marines and 3 vults, you are ahead.
Fact.
From there Flash had no army to stop P mass-expanding, took an early expo himself to try to abuse T's imba defense powers, and fell anyway to a sick stasis. Them's the breaks, but the game wasn't equal when that first push was crushed.
Hey, I was just giving my point of view of the situation. There is no need for your sarcastic remarks in an attempt to belittle my analysis or because you may disagree with what I vividly explained. However, I will go into more detail about why the game was equalized before FlaSh decided to get a greedy third base.
Horang2 lost about 8 Dragoon and 4 probe from what I counted (possibly more but the camera angle prevented it).
This totals 1,200 and 400 Gas.
FlaSh lost 8 Marine, 2 Tanks (1 Tank got away) and 6 Vulture.
This totals 1,150 minerals and 200 Gas. Thus somewhat equalizing the game.
Horang2 lost 50 more minerals and 200 more Gas then FlaSh did on FlaShes push and also suffered the economic damage (losing probe).
Flash was behind ever since his first push failed - he was very behind on supply since that moment, then it snowballed into a a bigger disadvantage with that early 3rd CC, lack of harass, etc.
Comparing resources when it's not a mirror match and where flash's push units were completely off normal timings and horang2's units were normal for gate + obs doesn't contribute to the argument either way.
I put the resourses up there to show who won the engagement. The main point was the fact that Horang2 lost 8 Dragoon.
On March 22 2012 00:28 BlazeFury01 wrote: Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Alright you heard it here guys, BlazeFury01 understands that game better than Horang2 himself!
When you use 8 dragoons to kill 3 tanks, 5-6 marines and 3 vults, you are ahead.
Fact.
From there Flash had no army to stop P mass-expanding, took an early expo himself to try to abuse T's imba defense powers, and fell anyway to a sick stasis. Them's the breaks, but the game wasn't equal when that first push was crushed.
Hey, I was just giving my point of view of the situation. There is no need for your sarcastic remarks in an attempt to belittle my analysis or because you may disagree with what I vividly explained. However, I will go into more detail about why the game was equalized before FlaSh decided to get a greedy third base.
Horang2 lost about 8 Dragoon and 4 probe from what I counted (possibly more but the camera angle prevented it).
This totals 1,200 and 400 Gas.
FlaSh lost 8 Marine, 2 Tanks (1 Tank got away) and 6 Vulture.
This totals 1,150 minerals and 200 Gas. Thus somewhat equalizing the game.
Horang2 lost 50 more minerals and 200 more Gas then FlaSh did on FlaShes push and also suffered the economic damage (losing probe).
Flash was behind ever since his first push failed - he was very behind on supply since that moment, then it snowballed into a a bigger disadvantage with that early 3rd CC, lack of harass, etc.
Comparing resources when it's not a mirror match and where flash's push units were completely off normal timings and horang2's units were normal for gate + obs doesn't contribute to the argument either way.
I put the resourses up there to show who won the engagement. The main point was the fact that Horang2 lost 8 Dragoon.
Well the economy behind the engagement is entirely different, Horang2 with almost saturated 2 base and he didn't sacrifice economy / production. Which is why it's not relevant.
Edit: for example, flash didn't start harvesting from his second gas till 9:30~10:00. He only started putting up his 3rd and 4th factory and the second machine shop down then, normally terran has at least all of these production facilities up already at the 10:00 mark which is what allows them to go for the third.
As for Flash vs Horang Episode 1, I believe that Flash's push getting dismantled left Horang2 rather far ahead --- he said as much in his interview.
Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Flashes problem occured when he tried to make a fast third base without having the defense to do it.
If you notice, Horang2 gets his 3rd expansion far after flash does. While flash was building his third base, Horang2 was investing all of his resources into units to prevent flash from getting a fast third base.
Horang2 then delayed flashes third base long enough for him to secure his own third at the same time thus putting Horang2 far ahead because he had the bigger army size (from building a late third & focusing those resources on units).
Flash scouted arbiter and because of this he wanted to get out faster science vessel to deal with it. Having his expansion delayed ruined the science vessel timing because he wasn't able to get that third gas as fast. That third gas was critical to Flashes strategy because it would have allowed him to throw down more factory while building siege tank and science vessel. Because Flash didn't get his third base as early as he wanted to he wasn't able to do all at once and it forced him to stay on five factory and one starport (not giving him that unit support he needed).
Horang2 knows that Flashes quick third strategy involves a lot of tank with a minimal vulture count. That's why he massed Zealots toward the end. In the end, Flash ended up getting broken.
Making the third after the failed push was the only choice flash had against an expanding protoss though, therefore his push failing did actually put horang2 ahead, significantly if you consider the strategy horang2 was going for which flash DID see with scans. There was no way that flash could have mustered the tank count again to make a 2 base push against horang2 that would outright kill him before horang2's third was up. Horang2 delaying tank's third base from securing was also because flash had no tank count and had no map control - from the failed push. No matter how you spin it the failed push put flash way behind, not equal.
What put flash way behind was him sitting on two factory. You talk about flash dealing with an expanding protoss but that's just it, Horang2 didn't expand and Flash didn't scout/scan another expansion before throwing up his third command center.
Here's a VOD of flash failing with the exact same push.
As for Flash vs Horang Episode 1, I believe that Flash's push getting dismantled left Horang2 rather far ahead --- he said as much in his interview.
Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Flashes problem occured when he tried to make a fast third base without having the defense to do it.
If you notice, Horang2 gets his 3rd expansion far after flash does. While flash was building his third base, Horang2 was investing all of his resources into units to prevent flash from getting a fast third base.
Horang2 then delayed flashes third base long enough for him to secure his own third at the same time thus putting Horang2 far ahead because he had the bigger army size (from building a late third & focusing those resources on units).
Flash scouted arbiter and because of this he wanted to get out faster science vessel to deal with it. Having his expansion delayed ruined the science vessel timing because he wasn't able to get that third gas as fast. That third gas was critical to Flashes strategy because it would have allowed him to throw down more factory while building siege tank and science vessel. Because Flash didn't get his third base as early as he wanted to he wasn't able to do all at once and it forced him to stay on five factory and one starport (not giving him that unit support he needed).
Horang2 knows that Flashes quick third strategy involves a lot of tank with a minimal vulture count. That's why he massed Zealots toward the end. In the end, Flash ended up getting broken.
Making the third after the failed push was the only choice flash had against an expanding protoss though, therefore his push failing did actually put horang2 ahead, significantly if you consider the strategy horang2 was going for which flash DID see with scans. There was no way that flash could have mustered the tank count again to make a 2 base push against horang2 that would outright kill him before horang2's third was up. Horang2 delaying tank's third base from securing was also because flash had no tank count and had no map control - from the failed push. No matter how you spin it the failed push put flash way behind, not equal.
What put flash way behind was him sitting on two factory. You talk about flash dealing with an expanding protoss but that's just it, Horang2 didn't expand and Flash didn't scout/scan another expansion before throwing up his third command center.
Here's a VOD of flash failing with the exact same push.
The push timing required him to not take the second gas till the 10 min mark, he didn't even have a second machine shop up yet. He sacrificed economy and production, as I said, from the push. He didn't make the choice to have less production while having the resources to support the production, he didn't have the resources because of the push. He wasn't going to add factories while the push was happening. He started the factories as his push was cleaned up which is entirely logical.
As for Flash vs Horang Episode 1, I believe that Flash's push getting dismantled left Horang2 rather far ahead --- he said as much in his interview.
Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Flashes problem occured when he tried to make a fast third base without having the defense to do it.
If you notice, Horang2 gets his 3rd expansion far after flash does. While flash was building his third base, Horang2 was investing all of his resources into units to prevent flash from getting a fast third base.
Horang2 then delayed flashes third base long enough for him to secure his own third at the same time thus putting Horang2 far ahead because he had the bigger army size (from building a late third & focusing those resources on units).
Flash scouted arbiter and because of this he wanted to get out faster science vessel to deal with it. Having his expansion delayed ruined the science vessel timing because he wasn't able to get that third gas as fast. That third gas was critical to Flashes strategy because it would have allowed him to throw down more factory while building siege tank and science vessel. Because Flash didn't get his third base as early as he wanted to he wasn't able to do all at once and it forced him to stay on five factory and one starport (not giving him that unit support he needed).
Horang2 knows that Flashes quick third strategy involves a lot of tank with a minimal vulture count. That's why he massed Zealots toward the end. In the end, Flash ended up getting broken.
Making the third after the failed push was the only choice flash had against an expanding protoss though, therefore his push failing did actually put horang2 ahead, significantly if you consider the strategy horang2 was going for which flash DID see with scans. There was no way that flash could have mustered the tank count again to make a 2 base push against horang2 that would outright kill him before horang2's third was up. Horang2 delaying tank's third base from securing was also because flash had no tank count and had no map control - from the failed push. No matter how you spin it the failed push put flash way behind, not equal.
What put flash way behind was him sitting on two factory. You talk about flash dealing with an expanding protoss but that's just it, Horang2 didn't expand and Flash didn't scout/scan another expansion before throwing up his third command center.
Here's a VOD of flash failing with the exact same push.
The push timing required him to not take the second gas till the 10 min mark, he didn't even have a second machine shop up yet. He sacrificed economy and production, as I said, from the push. He didn't make the choice to have less production while having the resources to support the production, he didn't have the resources because of the push. He wasn't going to add factories while the push was happening. He started the factories as his push was cleaned up which is entirely logical.
He had 3 Factory (check the 7:30 mark) before his expansion not two like he did against Horang2 and that extra factory made a difference for his expansion. He added "extra" factory after his expansion.
Basically it was the same senario in the two games the only difference was that flash had 3 factory and was able to consistantly produce vulture to keep Jangbi defensive while against Horang2 he only had two factory and chose to play defensive while getting a much faster expand. I totally see your point though bro!
As for Flash vs Horang Episode 1, I believe that Flash's push getting dismantled left Horang2 rather far ahead --- he said as much in his interview.
Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Flashes problem occured when he tried to make a fast third base without having the defense to do it.
If you notice, Horang2 gets his 3rd expansion far after flash does. While flash was building his third base, Horang2 was investing all of his resources into units to prevent flash from getting a fast third base.
Horang2 then delayed flashes third base long enough for him to secure his own third at the same time thus putting Horang2 far ahead because he had the bigger army size (from building a late third & focusing those resources on units).
Flash scouted arbiter and because of this he wanted to get out faster science vessel to deal with it. Having his expansion delayed ruined the science vessel timing because he wasn't able to get that third gas as fast. That third gas was critical to Flashes strategy because it would have allowed him to throw down more factory while building siege tank and science vessel. Because Flash didn't get his third base as early as he wanted to he wasn't able to do all at once and it forced him to stay on five factory and one starport (not giving him that unit support he needed).
Horang2 knows that Flashes quick third strategy involves a lot of tank with a minimal vulture count. That's why he massed Zealots toward the end. In the end, Flash ended up getting broken.
Making the third after the failed push was the only choice flash had against an expanding protoss though, therefore his push failing did actually put horang2 ahead, significantly if you consider the strategy horang2 was going for which flash DID see with scans. There was no way that flash could have mustered the tank count again to make a 2 base push against horang2 that would outright kill him before horang2's third was up. Horang2 delaying tank's third base from securing was also because flash had no tank count and had no map control - from the failed push. No matter how you spin it the failed push put flash way behind, not equal.
What put flash way behind was him sitting on two factory. You talk about flash dealing with an expanding protoss but that's just it, Horang2 didn't expand and Flash didn't scout/scan another expansion before throwing up his third command center.
Here's a VOD of flash failing with the exact same push.
The push timing required him to not take the second gas till the 10 min mark, he didn't even have a second machine shop up yet. He sacrificed economy and production, as I said, from the push. He didn't make the choice to have less production while having the resources to support the production, he didn't have the resources because of the push. He wasn't going to add factories while the push was happening. He started the factories as his push was cleaned up which is entirely logical.
He had 3 Factory (check the 7:30 mark) before his expansion not two like he did against Horang2 and that extra factory made a difference for his expansion. He added "extra" factory after his expansion.
Vs Horang2: http://i.imgur.com/uVRSN.png I'm looking at the game vs Jangbi, the problem between comparing the two builds though is that flash already started his third vs Horang2 at 10 min and he didn't vs jangbi because he saw shuttle / reaver tech and didn't build his third till he was sure he could defend against that. Flash's response is actually correct in both games vs the two different builds. The fact I want to make was that the push put him behind, it also put him behind vs Jangbi but he equalized that vs Jangbi because he defended the reaver drop, he had no chance to vs Horang2.The only chance he had of equalizing it was exactly what he did, the fast third which started before the additional factories.
Edit: I read your edit but they aren't the same scenarios as outlined above. Jangbi wasn't defensive because of vultures from the third factory, Jangbi was on the offensive with double shuttle reaver drop which is a huge investment.
On March 22 2012 09:30 BlazeFury01 wrote: Hey, I was just giving my point of view of the situation. There is no need for your sarcastic remarks in an attempt to belittle my analysis or because you may disagree with what I vividly explained.
...
In other words, I have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to prove me wrong.
But that's just it, it's not just me (and other KT Fans even) disagreeing with you here, it's Horang2 himself! The guy who took down the world's #1 player! You can make a claim to understand the game better than me, you might even be right, but I don't think you can claim to know the game better than Horang2.
And as other people have already pointed out, comparing resources means nothing. All it takes is a look at the food counter. Flash is on 52, Horang2 53. After, Flash is on 39, Horang2 is on... 53. When the vultures are cleaned up, it's 40 vs 57.
This means Flash is in a worse position when the fight was over, compared to when he started. For sure. So the only way the push could "equalise the game" is if Flash was initially ahead. I wouldn't say he was.
And if Horang2 wasn't so sloppy with mines, it would be an even more pronounced difference.
As for Flash vs Horang Episode 1, I believe that Flash's push getting dismantled left Horang2 rather far ahead --- he said as much in his interview.
Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Flashes problem occured when he tried to make a fast third base without having the defense to do it.
If you notice, Horang2 gets his 3rd expansion far after flash does. While flash was building his third base, Horang2 was investing all of his resources into units to prevent flash from getting a fast third base.
Horang2 then delayed flashes third base long enough for him to secure his own third at the same time thus putting Horang2 far ahead because he had the bigger army size (from building a late third & focusing those resources on units).
Flash scouted arbiter and because of this he wanted to get out faster science vessel to deal with it. Having his expansion delayed ruined the science vessel timing because he wasn't able to get that third gas as fast. That third gas was critical to Flashes strategy because it would have allowed him to throw down more factory while building siege tank and science vessel. Because Flash didn't get his third base as early as he wanted to he wasn't able to do all at once and it forced him to stay on five factory and one starport (not giving him that unit support he needed).
Horang2 knows that Flashes quick third strategy involves a lot of tank with a minimal vulture count. That's why he massed Zealots toward the end. In the end, Flash ended up getting broken.
Making the third after the failed push was the only choice flash had against an expanding protoss though, therefore his push failing did actually put horang2 ahead, significantly if you consider the strategy horang2 was going for which flash DID see with scans. There was no way that flash could have mustered the tank count again to make a 2 base push against horang2 that would outright kill him before horang2's third was up. Horang2 delaying tank's third base from securing was also because flash had no tank count and had no map control - from the failed push. No matter how you spin it the failed push put flash way behind, not equal.
What put flash way behind was him sitting on two factory. You talk about flash dealing with an expanding protoss but that's just it, Horang2 didn't expand and Flash didn't scout/scan another expansion before throwing up his third command center.
Here's a VOD of flash failing with the exact same push.
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg. Anything more than the 3 safe bases and possibly 4th expansion toward enemy is unrealistic unless terran is already in an advantegous spot (like the slightly imbalanced mech transition build tends to be on current maps).
Same for protoss against zerg. This is why all the 2-3 base timing commitment. Because the faster races have mastered the tactics of abusing immobility of slow race and getting them out of position to destroy far away expansions.
On March 22 2012 00:28 BlazeFury01 wrote: Flashes failed push actually equalized the game. Horang2 lost just as much as flash did if you tally the dragoon and probe losses, plus they had an equal amount of bases.
Alright you heard it here guys, BlazeFury01 understands that game better than Horang2 himself!
When you use 8 dragoons to kill 3 tanks, 5-6 marines and 3 vults, you are ahead.
Fact.
From there Flash had no army to stop P mass-expanding, took an early expo himself to try to abuse T's imba defense powers, and fell anyway to a sick stasis. Them's the breaks, but the game wasn't equal when that first push was crushed.
Hey, I was just giving my point of view of the situation. There is no need for your sarcastic remarks in an attempt to belittle my analysis or because you may disagree with what I vividly explained. However, I will go into more detail about why the game was equalized before FlaSh decided to get a greedy third base.
Horang2 lost about 8 Dragoon and 4 probe from what I counted (possibly more but the camera angle prevented it).
This totals 1,200 and 400 Gas.
FlaSh lost 8 Marine, 2 Tanks (1 Tank got away) and 6 Vulture.
This totals 1,150 minerals and 200 Gas. Thus somewhat equalizing the game.
Horang2 lost 50 more minerals and 200 more Gas then FlaSh did on FlaShes push and also suffered the economic damage (losing probe).
And then the rest was explained in my previous post as to how Horang2 got ahead. Flash wasted 400 on a Command Center that wasn't lifted until Horang2 was able to get his own expansion up. Flash could have added on two more factory (2 with Machine shops, 2 without) with that extra 400 then expanded and that would have given him the defense he needed to prevent Horang2's bust.
Anyway,
Check out the comments under theMshady on my breakdown analysis of why FlaSh lost to dear and then read M18M's winners interview (second link) after he beat FlaSh and M18M mentions exactly what I was talking about in the dear game.
As an SC analyst, I disagree that cancelling the turrets is what killed flash. It contributed to his loss because of his worker count being reduced but it wasn't ultimately why he lost. Flash would have lost this game regardless if he cancelled the turrets or not. Reason being that Dear was already setting up for a bust as soon as flash took his 3rd. Flash was only on 2 Factory and Dears reaver only killed one vulture.In other words, Flash wouldn't have had the defense to defend the bust.
This map has a huge gap between the between the second and third bases. Flash would have needed one to two more factory (3 total. 2 Pumping vulture and 1 Pumping tank) to have comfortably secured defense. The mines would have provided a significant amount of defense. Since Flash started out with 2 factory tank, it reduced his vulture production thus not giving him enough defense to take his third in the first place.
On March 11 2012 09:39 Hesmyrr wrote: Victor: Air Force ACE Q: Therefore you came up with the idea of building gateways on the middle. StarDust: The tactic was planned in advance. I thought after getting to four gateways by building three in the center, it was possible to win with the usage of reaver and shuttles. At the timing where Flash double expands to the front and back, there are only two factories present. There's a moment when there is only three tanks. I was aiming for that timing but it was delayed due to the bunker rush. Still I proceeded on confident I could break his defenses and that made me win the game.
In other words, I have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to prove me wrong.
Terrans gather minerals 20% slower than protoss, have less workers at duty due to building mechanic and have more expensive production buildings. In addition, their army size increases has AUGMENTED returns, unlike the diminishing returns of the other 2 races. And these conditions cause a feedback loop that cause the conditions to progressively become worse over the course of the game. Because of this, an army trade of anywhere near comparable numbers is almost always bad for terran and if a push faiils to do serious damage they are in trouble even if they can gather another push later.
On March 20 2012 13:56 Fenrax wrote: Terrans in general seem to be out of ideas for midgame and late game against Protoss since a while. Literally all they after the early game is the 3 base turtle style into doom push, there is absolutely no variation to this. Take 3 bases, macro to ~170 supply, go kill him, cross your fingers that it will work. I think only once this season an Airforce Terran took a fourth base (and lost).
The thing is, I feel like if Flash had just done this the normal way, without corner-cutting, I think he would've won all three games with this exact same build. Flash's doom push is insanely good. Just look at how close he came to killing Jangbi on Pathfinder despite Jangbi having a huge early game BO advantage and insane push-breaking skills.
3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures.
This is out of touch with the current pro style to be frank. Holding half a map as terran is almost completely impossible, against both protoss and zerg. Anything more than the 3 safe bases and possibly 4th expansion toward enemy is unrealistic unless terran is already in an advantegous spot (like the slightly imbalanced mech transition build tends to be on current maps).
Same for protoss against zerg. This is why all the 2-3 base timing commitment. Because the faster races have mastered the tactics of abusing immobility of slow race and getting them out of position to destroy far away expansions.
Erm, yea? And I listed the reasons why it's almost impossible. "Reliable" is in quotations for a reason. You have to do it against a faster expanding protoss while having no reliable means of harassment. 3 base doom push is popular because if you don't end the game then you are forced to essentially completely be winging the game where the only strategy is to out resource the opponent by taking half the map, you have to react to every move the protoss makes and hope that the toss doesn't break your line of defense any where. It rarely ever works out, the only good example recently from the top of my head is http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/75270_Bogus_vs_Stats/vod Nearly all standards PvT's end between the 15 - 25 minute mark because of this reason, either the terran wins by early game aggression, 3 base push or dies from the failed push / counter attack. If you read my other comments in this thread I also touch on the fact that all new terran strategies are early game 1-2 base aggression builds that are aimed at gathering a significant enough advantage to either end the game out right or give the terran ability to expand at will.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Xc7hn.jpg)
