EPTlol so this is why he went biomech today
Flash's PvT problem - Page 4
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doothegee
Korea (South)3011 Posts
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On March 20 2012 17:43 Fenrax wrote: Yeah, but II don't believe that there is really no alternative. No race (except for Zerg in ZvZ but ZvZ is almost a different game) in any matchup is a stale and predictable as Terrans in TvP. In PvT you have Carriers, Mass Gateway only or Arbiters. Even in TvT there are usually Tanks but also Mass Wraiths, Mass Vultures or Dropship play. It is just TvP where one side exactly knows what the other side will do, no exceptions so far and that can't be good. I don't have the answers but I wonder about a few options. Do Terrans really have to produce all these Vultures and hope to get lucky with Harrass and mines? Can't they use their extra minerals for a fourth, wall it up with Depots and mine and Turret it up? At least on some maps? To me it just feels like that 3 base push while incredibly strong is overused and Tosses won't lose to it often enough anymore because they can tailor their midgame exclusively for that one strategy. I've tabulated it, here's flash's 2007 spread sheet. http://i.imgur.com/IrX3x.png Even back then it was obvious that the terran mentality had to be safe factory expand into game end before late game or just super aggression early game. I could back it up with recent data, but yea look at the diversity of openings of TvP vs say TvZ (biomech 2 base push falls under 2 base all in in this spreadsheet). It's not so much stale as it has been thoroughly figured out, it's just much more advantageous for terrans to push out and end the game on 3 base or 2 base. If yall want me to post more spreadsheets of TBLS stats etc i update it in my TBLS thread. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320183 | ||
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xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + The sad thing is horang had that game ezpz with his micro, he just didn't macro. He didn't queue a 2nd reaver despite having the resources to do so, didn't get a 2nd gas, and kinda just sat on 500-800 minerals (with low gas). Just imagine what would've been different if he had just queued a 2nd reaver....... Flash wouldn't have known what hit him | ||
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mnesthes
5433 Posts
I came into this thread expecting to see Flash lose another TvP on Day 3 (I was at school). | ||
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
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Wala.Revolution
7584 Posts
On March 20 2012 19:53 xxpack09 wrote: Spoiler for Day 3's games (though why would you be in this thread if you haven't watched them) + Show Spoiler + The sad thing is horang had that game ezpz with his micro, he just didn't macro. He didn't queue a 2nd reaver despite having the resources to do so, didn't get a 2nd gas, and kinda just sat on 500-800 minerals (with low gas). Just imagine what would've been different if he had just queued a 2nd reaver....... Flash wouldn't have known what hit him + Show Spoiler + Actually he lost the game due to his initial micro mistake with his goons. The goon losses at 2nd and 3rd ridges were too great, forcing him to pump some goons off of 1 gas which tried to support 6 gates and a robo at once. His reaver micro was good but it wasn't enough to offset the composition imbalance of his units. | ||
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doothegee
Korea (South)3011 Posts
On March 20 2012 20:07 Wala.Revolution wrote: + Show Spoiler + Actually he lost the game due to his initial micro mistake with his goons. The goon losses at 2nd and 3rd ridges were too great, forcing him to pump some goons off of 1 gas which tried to support 6 gates and a robo at once. His reaver micro was good but it wasn't enough to offset the composition imbalance of his units. + Show Spoiler + And he lost four dragoons trying to get on last hit on the tank. Dragoon AI ftw | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
On March 20 2012 18:03 fYlddnaHturtDyaWdmAi wrote: lol butthurt kt fan. all the others are taking it as good sports. I wanted to say something snarky but actually thank you.You thought of me as a KT fan and not a Flash fan.  but really the comic could have expanded a bit more than Flash just raging because he saw a probe instead of a drone. | ||
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0kz
Italy1118 Posts
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On March 20 2012 14:34 Zariel wrote: Flash actually draws a line a defense not where his front is, but about 1 screen back from the front line. He plays a mindgame with his opponent to show his defense is weak goading them to break through but end up taking massive losses once they breach the front. If you haven't noticed, he tends to place around 3-4 tanks in his front line in which he does not mind losing, then he has like 7-10 tanks behind that line that rapes anything that tries to punch through. Seriously, it's as if he's playing starcraft on a 40" screen which he can see the whole map. lol resolution is the same... you dont see more on a bigger monitory | ||
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fYlddnaHturtDyaWdmAi
Israel157 Posts
On March 20 2012 21:05 BLinD-RawR wrote: I wanted to say something snarky but actually thank you.You thought of me as a KT fan and not a Flash fan. but really the comic could have expanded a bit more than Flash just raging because he saw a probe instead of a drone. dont thank me, i edited it to flash fan. sorry to say this but you stood out in a thread where people even flash fans where having a good time. the bitterness was evident. lol. why dont you make your own comics since you have an idea for it? | ||
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xargon
13 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Problem Solved! | ||
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50bani
Romania480 Posts
The issue is pure economical superiority of Protoss. They get buildings to build by themselves, while Terran has to lose mining time for every building they make, depots take longer to build, and even more, SCVs are retarded on close mineral patches, so they don't mine them faster than the ones one square away. So there will always be a large difference in resources mined until major damage happens. Now, if we accept that we have to go mech against Protoss, the higher cost of the Factories and addons needs to be taken into consideration, so now we see how much smaller the Terran army value is. So you see Terrans going for the late game, by taking an early 3rd, fast upgrades and waiting for a large number of Tanks in order to hit a critical mass that is impossible for Protoss to break cost-efficiently. The fact is that there is no reason for Protoss to be behind (or even for that matter) any kind of 1 or 2 base Factory play because the economy is naturally in their favor. But Barracks are cheaper, and Marines have huge dps for cost, don't they? It would be awesome if you could somehow make Marines work, so you could get out on the map quickly, and be able to consistently punish greedy 3rds from Protoss. But how do you make Marines viable? | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
On March 20 2012 21:46 fYlddnaHturtDyaWdmAi wrote: dont thank me, i edited it to flash fan. sorry to say this but you stood out in a thread where people even flash fans where having a good time. the bitterness was evident. lol. why dont you make your own comics since you have an idea for it? But I wasn't bitter...:/ I just don't find it that funny Nor am I a flash fan, I prefer the rest of KT to flash. | ||
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
seriously, such a funny image | ||
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buldermar
Denmark102 Posts
Firstly, one should be cautious about comparing games - in particular games just prior to the surgery with the ones in this SPL. I recall flash saying something that implicitly suggested a lack of motivation/desire of winning against JangBi in an interview by TossGirl (e.g. he wanted to get the surgery done asap). I don't think it's absurd to suggest that choice of strategies in some of his last games before the surgery could have been influenced by the recurrent physical pain in his wrist. Speaking of only postsurgery games, 3 consecutive losses against protoss players are not enough to be statistically significant. This means that the simplest explanation "coincidence" also easily could be the most accurate one. Keeping this in mind, we can now look into each of the games he lost. Versus Dear Flash vc Dear Flash opens with 1rax CC, Dear opens with 1gate core w/ range into nexus. These are to my knowledge fairly balanced openings giving no player a significant BO advantage. 6:12 Flash manages to scout a robotics facility with a hidden scv in Dear's main. 7:10 The observer shows a hidden robotics supportbay placed at the back of Dear's natural near the nexus, and an observatory at the front of the natural. 7:46 Flash starts constructing an engineering bay around the time his academy is up so that he can scan for information around the time the engineering bay is up. With this information, he can decide on whether or not he should make turrets. 8:12 The first scan is placed in the middle of Dear's main. Since Dear smartly placed his shuttle at his natural instead of having it hanging over the robotics facility, Flash a) does not scout a robotics supportbay, b) sees no shuttle waiting for a reaver. 8:26 Flash scans top left of Dear's base looking for hidden tech, but only sees a pylon. 8:48 Shortly after having cancelled the building turrets, having seen no signs of a reaverbuild, Flash uses 4 vultures to scout Dear's newly built 3rd, contributing to Flash's conclusion: Dear is apperently going for an economical opening. 9:05 To Flash's surprise, a shuttle shows up. Seing this, Flash immediately starts turrets again. 9:08 Dear gets off a nice shot in the scv line. 9:17 Another nice shot. 9:33 Perhaps the most deciding shot of the game, killing a lot of scvs. 10:40 Flash tries to secure 3rd, knowing that Dear already got his 3rd up. Dear hits just before a defensive turret is up with 2 shuttles and his army (argueably, not much would have changed had the turret finished before). Flash loses his army and essentially the game. Summary: 1) Dear kept shuttle at natural, hoping for scan in main (happened) 2) Dear kept robotics supportbay at natural, hoping for lack of scan/scout here (happened) 3) Dear took a 3rd at what would be the normal timing for a normal non-reaver opening, hoping for flash to scout this (happened) 4) Not a single reavershot missed/bugged. Based on obtained information, it "could" be correct to cancel the turrets. A delayed or quicker scan, or a scan at a different location, would possibly have provided different information. It remains unknown if locations for scan and timings for scan were arbitrary/intentionally randomized, or if Dear accounted for this. On that same token, it remains unknown if Flash scouted suboptimally (aside from the perhaps just unfortunate timings and locations for scans). Thus, it remains unknown whether Flash actually made any noticeable mistakes (let me know if I missed any) aside from the mistake of being unlucky. I think it is fair to claim that Dear was at least a bit lucky this game, as is claiming that he played it smartly. He had huge hits with his reaver shots, Flash scouted and scanned at the ideal time and place from Dear's perspective. Reversibly, it would be unfair to claim that Flash had much luck. Consequently, the distribution of fortune this game favored Dear, which, in conjunction with the tricky plays, won him the game. Versus StarDust Flash vs StarDust Flash opens with a proxy rax, StarDust opens with a gateway. 4:19 StarDust sees two marines with his scouting probe, allowing him to expect a hidden bunker. 4:30 Expecting (correctly) the hidden bunker, StarDust pull probes to his natural to prevent it from finishing. Losing 4 probes and mining time, he manages to kill a finished bunker. Flash brought 3 scv's of his own to support his marines. 5:20 Upon seing the first dragoon, Flash opts to return to his main. The game settles at what looks to be a normal one with both players taking their natural expansion. 8:00 Flash scouts a building nexus at StarDust's natural with a floating rax. 9:00 StarDust decides to cheese, proxying a robotics facility and 3 gateways instead of taking 3rd, whilst Flash takes his inbase mineral only 3rd. Since Flash opted to skip academy and just get turrets blindly, he has no way of scouting the lack of buildings in StarDust's main. Furthermore, he flew his rax to the north, scouting no proxied buildings in the process. Using the a shuttle to transport units to Flash's 3rd and later for a reaver, StarDust wins the game with his 2 base play. Summary: 1) StarDust (perhaps intentionally) scouted marines in time to stop the bunkerrush without losing anything aside from miningtime and 4 probes. 2) Flash skips academy, lacking scans that could potentially have revealed a lack of gateways in the main of StarDust. 3) StarDust proxied his buildings before scouting the 3rd of Flash, blindly hoping for Flash to opt for a quick 3rd instead of a 2base timing push. (happened) 4) Contrary to the game against Dear, Flash opted to do a 1fact into 3rd instead of 2fact into 3rd, lacking vultures to scout with as a result. 5) Flash scouted no proxied buildings with his floating rax in the middle of the map, decreasing the odds of StarDust having proxied any (from Flash's perspective). Similar to the game against Dear, Flash scouted all the wrong things and thus made unfortunate decisions. For instance, had the floating rax scouted main instead of natural, Flash would have scouted the lack of gateways. Or had he opted for 2fact into 3rd, vultures might have scouted the proxied buildings and Flash would have had more units to defend with. I say this merely to point to the fact that StarDust was having a best case scenario with his proxied buildings, presumeably making them without any certainty of Flash not doing one or more of: a 2base push, going 2fact into 3rd, scouting them with the floating rax, scouting lack of gateways in main with the floating rax, getting academy for scans. Versus Horang2 Flash vs Horang2 Flash does a conservative and safe 1rax gas 1fact opening while scouting whilst Horang2 skips any probescouting, doing a normal 1gate core opening, relying on his dragoon to scout. Maybe the map is bad for proxy rax or perhaps Horang2 had a bit of luck having Flash do a conservative opening. 8:35 Perhaps in hopes of Horang2 having taken an early 3rd or having teched to something beside observers, Flash decides to push with a handful of marines, a few vultures with mines and 3 tanks. However, Horang2 went for a standard 3 gate and thus managed to defend without too many losses. 15:35 Horang2 goes for a huge 13gate arbiter push, hitting Flash just before vessels are out. Flash loses his entire army, but eventually manages to push Horang2 back. 18:40 Horang2 goes for another big push. This time, Flash has 2 vessels out. In anticipation of recalls in main or natural, Flash has one vessel at each of these locations. However, unfortunately for flash, Horang2 uses his arbiter to support his army, making a huge recall on top of the army of Flash as a result hereof. It should be noted, though, that Flash was behind at this point and most likely would have lost the game either way. Summary: 1) Flash takes a slight BO disadvantage, doing a 1fact into CC opening while scouting against a blind core opening. 2) Flash opts to do a push from 2 bases in hopes of Horang2 doing something nonstandard. This seems like the most interresting game of the 3 games to me. In this game, it Horang2 did not seem to win mostly by virtue of luck. Obviously, he had a slight lead neglecting to scout with a probe while being up against the conservative opening of Flash, but is that really significant enough to explain the outcome of the game? Flash did do an unsuccesful 2base push, but did it really put him behind that much? Horang2 also did stay on 1 forge, which is suboptimal had his 13gate push not worked, but it doesn't seem that decisive either. Finally, he did push just before the first vessel of Flash, but nothing prevents Flash from scanning arbiter timing and prepare accordingly, getting the vessel out in time. Did Flash make any significant mistakes or was he really unlucky at any point in this game? | ||
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[Azn]Nada
United States275 Posts
On March 20 2012 14:39 Scarecrow wrote: I don't think people understand why he takes these risks. Against horang2 he absolutely needed to have that third up and fortified asap. He can't afford to stay on 2 base too long or he'll just get run over by shit like 3 base 12 gate arb tech. To get to his amazing late game he MUST secure a third if he misses the timing to punish the tosses third. If the 2 base push fails (like it did vs horang2) he has to take a risk or simply get worn down. The turret cancelling is just the problem he faces, tosses either go super greedy or super all in vs him. If he throws down turrets vs a super greedy play (like that old game vs snow) he's in a horrible situation. It's just the 2 games he lost were mis-reads due to opponents proxying/hiding buildings. Love this - wanted to add these days, a lot of maps are REALLY hard to take a third - ffor example on the map with horange, you have to defend a ramp thats more than a quarter of the map in terms of width... its redic hard to play like that | ||
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Stratos
Czech Republic6104 Posts
So looking forward to today's rebroadcast. Also a reminder not to run into a spoiler lol, gotta get outta here. | ||
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On March 20 2012 19:51 Caihead wrote: I've tabulated it, here's flash's 2007 spread sheet. http://i.imgur.com/IrX3x.png Even back then it was obvious that the terran mentality had to be safe factory expand into game end before late game or just super aggression early game. I could back it up with recent data, but yea look at the diversity of openings of TvP vs say TvZ (biomech 2 base push falls under 2 base all in in this spreadsheet). It's not so much stale as it has been thoroughly figured out, it's just much more advantageous for terrans to push out and end the game on 3 base or 2 base. If yall want me to post more spreadsheets of TBLS stats etc i update it in my TBLS thread. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320183 Imo the problem is that it doesn't seem to work currently. Tosses destroy the 3 base doom push left and right unless the T leaves the early game with a substantial advantage or is just a better player. And Flash seems to know it, the history of games vs. good players this season shows it. In his first win vs. Horang2 he completely ouplayed him with Vultures in the early game but you can't always rely on that. After that he 14CCed Stork, Bunker rushed Best, lost a straight up game vs. Horang2 and now now 4-Raxed him. | ||
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How2getMaster
Germany124 Posts
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