EPTFlash's PvT problem - Page 3
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7917 Posts
On March 20 2012 14:39 Scarecrow wrote: I don't think people understand why he takes these risks. Against horang2 he absolutely needed to have that third up and fortified asap. He can't afford to stay on 2 base too long or he'll just get run over by shit like 3 base 12 gate arb tech. To get to his amazing late game he MUST secure a third if he misses the timing to punish the tosses third. If the 2 base push fails (like it did vs horang2) he has to take a risk or simply get worn down. The turret cancelling is just the problem he faces, tosses either go super greedy or super all in vs him. If he throws down turrets vs a super greedy play (like that old game vs snow) he's in a horrible situation. It's just the 2 games he lost were mis-reads due to opponents proxying/hiding buildings. Yeah but why does he try to kill a super good toss with something lile 14 goons with 3 tanks ten rines and 4 vultures. The worst about that game is that his micro was stellar. But the attack was just a bad idea... | ||
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Doraemon
Australia14949 Posts
kudos! can't wait! 30 more minutes | ||
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Tourist
Germany55 Posts
On March 20 2012 17:12 Biff The Understudy wrote: Yeah but why does he try to kill a super good toss with something lile 14 goons with 3 tanks ten rines and 4 vultures. The worst about that game is that his micro was stellar. But the attack was just a bad idea... i think flash might haev thought that horang already took a 3rd or went for some tech , so he tried to push him, but horang played it super save only 1 exp and mass goons with obs, 2001 classic p was > than flash in 2012 also the oldschool, "don't let terran get the 3rd" worked. if t can secure a good 3rd u know ur going for a late game horror push against 3-3 metal, the moment he takes the 3rd is his last weak moment where a good push can end it all. p philosophy since '00. and as a p player tbh i find the mu easer for p. (not saying anything about imba, just as i find pvz easier for z) | ||
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Abort Retry Fail
2636 Posts
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tiaz
Sweden231 Posts
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JustinL
Australia58 Posts
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johanes
Czech Republic2229 Posts
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On March 20 2012 16:49 Caihead wrote: Yes, the reasoning is of the points that I highlighted. A toss in PvZ can take a 3rd and fourth while having its army to defend key points between the nat and 3rd / fourth and at the same time ensure the zerg isn't completely unharassed because of drops that can do great damage in a very short time (storm drop or reaver drop takes ~10 pop and while expensive can react fast enough to return to the main army if the zerg engages). The terran can't do that, if he wants to deny economy it's half of his army moving out, unless the protoss is careless and allows the terran the ability to micro vultures in the mineral line which ofcourse does happen and good terrans capitalize on those mistakes but the terran can't always depend on the opponent making a mistake. If the terran commits to taking a fourth it means that he has to settle on turtling on half the map and starve the protoss out or lose and that's literally it since the protoss is going to go unharassed and have more expansions. Yeah, but II don't believe that there is really no alternative. No race (except for Zerg in ZvZ but ZvZ is almost a different game) in any matchup is a stale and predictable as Terrans in TvP. In PvT you have Carriers, Mass Gateway only or Arbiters. Even in TvT there are usually Tanks but also Mass Wraiths, Mass Vultures or Dropship play. It is just TvP where one side exactly knows what the other side will do, no exceptions so far and that can't be good. I don't have the answers but I wonder about a few options. Do Terrans really have to produce all these Vultures and hope to get lucky with Harrass and mines? Can't they use their extra minerals for a fourth, wall it up with Depots and mine and Turret it up? At least on some maps? To me it just feels like that 3 base push while incredibly strong is overused and Tosses won't lose to it often enough anymore because they can tailor their midgame exclusively for that one strategy. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
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fYlddnaHturtDyaWdmAi
Israel157 Posts
On March 20 2012 17:44 BLinD-RawR wrote: its funny, but not that much. lol butthurt kt fan. all the others are taking it as good sports. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2394 Posts
On March 20 2012 17:12 Biff The Understudy wrote: Yeah but why does he try to kill a super good toss with something lile 14 goons with 3 tanks ten rines and 4 vultures. The worst about that game is that his micro was stellar. But the attack was just a bad idea... Actually it was 8 goons and he was outmicroed, you're kidding yourself terribly here. | ||
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
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EngrishTeacher
Canada1109 Posts
On March 20 2012 18:21 Corsica wrote: can someone explain? Hero[Join] is zerg. | ||
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chisuri
Vietnam789 Posts
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On March 20 2012 15:12 Caihead wrote: 3 base doom push in TvP is akin to 2 base push in PvZ, if you can't win at that point it becomes a complete uncertainty who is going to win the game, the only "reliable" way to win is for the terran to secure half the map against a faster expanding protoss, which is similar to a PvZ where the protoss has to secure as many bases as possible and keep the zerg bases down... except terrans have to commit a sizable amount of army usually to effectively deny a base or harass because it lacks reliable forms of harassment beyond vultures. If you ever watched Flash before he became God, you'd know Flash's 3-base push almost never fail against most protosses. Yeah, he was losing sometimes to the likes of Stork or Best, but he was regularly killing average 5+ base protosses with ease. Yeah, of course if it fails then the terran's screwed. But Flash doesn't fail | ||
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shucklesors
Singapore1176 Posts
BANG BITCH! | ||
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jinfreaks
United States94 Posts
On March 20 2012 14:38 4vvhiplash7 wrote: which games is this? I would love to see a game between Flash and Stats its in the replays on TL, its aptly described at the "Great Wall of China" | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On March 20 2012 19:16 baubo wrote: If you ever watched Flash before he became God, you'd know Flash's 3-base push almost never fail against most protosses. Yeah, he was losing sometimes to the likes of Stork or Best, but he was regularly killing average 5+ base protosses with ease. Yeah, of course if it fails then the terran's screwed. But Flash doesn't fail I did watch him before he became God, the thing was that alot of the maps where his famous play against Toss were played on maps that let the Terran get a quick 4th that was easily linked with natural and third, hence the same mindset as protoss getting expansion vs zerg after 2 base push. Or that the map favored 2 base push because of terrain abuse and he could always split the map easily afterward. | ||
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