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Strengthening Foreign BW - Page 15

Forum Index > BW General
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Xenocide_Knight
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Korea (South)2625 Posts
October 06 2011 16:25 GMT
#281
I think a really easy and simple thing we can do to strengthen BW is to meet/play with those people just starting. Even if you're just like D/D+ ish, it's so hard to just get into BW without a little friendly advice. The practice partner thread

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=173905&currentpage=14

generally keeps getting updated with people who are either just starting or getting back into it. It's really hard to add a bunch of random people and be online at the same time so send them a PM on TL, meet up, and play some games!
Shine[Kal] #1 fan
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium7012 Posts
October 06 2011 16:35 GMT
#282
the first that we need for make bw more stronger is one association like kespa that manage all the things.people that know how manage
SmoKim
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark10305 Posts
October 06 2011 16:36 GMT
#283
On October 05 2011 18:29 Sayle wrote:
I have a big project planned for the upcoming proleague season. I'm not going to announce the details until I see roughly what the proleague schedule looks like, but it should solve all these complaints of not enough English commentaries ;p


uuuh, a mystery :D!
"LOL I have 202 supply right now (3 minutes later)..."LOL NOW I HAVE 220 SUPPLY SUP?!?!?" - Mondragon
CobaltBlu
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States919 Posts
October 06 2011 20:06 GMT
#284
I want to bump the idea of doing CPL again.

It got a lot of lower ranked players actively practicing and competing with each other to try and get better instead of just mindlessly laddering. I thought it helped create a sense of community that is missing at the D to C ranks right now. The last one got derailed at the end by the SC2 beta but I don't think that will happen again.
Brainbag
Profile Joined December 2010
United States30 Posts
October 07 2011 07:11 GMT
#285
The number of new members within the BW community isn't staggeringly high but little by little we are gaining momentum. Great to see SC2 players coming back to learn and play BW, and the attitude of the BW community has towards these people moving back.
Nothing of value was lost.
Ruken
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States858 Posts
October 07 2011 08:16 GMT
#286
CPL was so funnnn!
MIK Terran
popzags
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Poland604 Posts
October 07 2011 09:12 GMT
#287
sixfour, you post is brilliant.

I tried to expand it in TvX sections; maybe it's worth rearranging to fit in my additions?

- Starport play can make for interesting matchups. This typically only involved accumulation of large numbers of dropships to allow for better mobility of the mech army, dropping either at expansions to do economic damage, or at tanklines to abuse splash damage, but there has been a tendency in recent months for players to go heavily towards air, specifically large numbers of cloaked wraiths with a possibility of battlecruisers/valkyries in the late game. Some players have used a quick two-port wraith strategy in the past (Leta immediately springs to mind) to try to gain fast aerial superiority and pick off workers/tanks when Terran's anti-air is limited.

In TvT, it was Lomo, who popularized it. Leta did it as well, but mostly in TvZ.

- some players (notably Flash, often Fantasy) opt for a very quick armory, often two, in order to gain an upgrade advantage.

The vision is another crucial part of TvT. Tanks in Siege Mode can shoot further than they see, but they cannot shoot blindly outside their sight range, so the vision has to be provided by something else; commonly, a flying building or Wraith. Later in the game, players also use Comsat Stations to find distant targets for his sieged Tanks.

Some TvT's involve a stage of Vulture play, where one side tries to get the advantage by either harassing enemy SCV's before his Tanks grow in numbers, or by placing Mines to restrict his mobility and map control. Note that because of high and ranged damage of Terran Mech, mines in TvT are usually being clumped together tightly, so they could pop out simultaneously and get at least one hit before they're killed. In games involving Mines, the defending side sometimes uses a Marine or a Tank as a living detector, carefully inching forward and making sure that Vultures he keeps nearby will kill the Mines before they can explode.

TvZ [...] - Unless the Zerg is going for some sort of weird fast lurker play, they will usually look to get to a spire quickly. The idea of this isn't to kill the Terran, more to contain him and keep his army inside his base to allow the Zerg to secure a third base.

At this point, Terran has to make a choice to either defend the harass by keeping his infantry inside his base, or to move out and try to fight them off somewhere in the middle of the map. If he chooses the former, he'll usually be very safe, but at the cost of potential SCV losses and losing map control. Flash and many other pro Terrans frequently choose the latter option, which is risky, but more agressive; it's based on the fact, that if Zerg ignores Terran presence in the middle, and tries to backstab him with Mutas, Terran troops in turn attack at Zerg natural, knowing that Zerg couldn't transition to ground army yet.

+ Show Spoiler [TvZ timing; I dunno where to fit it] +
In most standard TvZ, when Terran goes bio and Zerg goes Mutalisks into Lurkers, there are couple crucial moments (timings) that may decide the game straight away or at least secure the advantage for either side. First important timing occurs when Terran adds two Medics to his initial Marine force. As a principle, he then immediately moves out, heading towards Zerg natural expansion. It all happens before Mutas pop out, so Zerg can either throw down Sunken Colonies or try to make a backstab attack with the Zerglings. The whole purpose of Terran maneuver is not killing the enemy, but forcing the Sunkens to be made, which shall weaken Zerg economy as he loses Drones to make static defense. And then, since Terran doesn't want to leave his bases vulnerable to Zergling backstab, he will often make a round of Firebats and puts them at the choke. Many decent Zerg players will try the third option and use Zerglings to poke around and delay Terran infantry, keeping his Creep Colonies unmutated into Sunkens until it's absolutely necessary to do so.

The second important moment is when first Science Vessel is out. This unit can Irradiate the Mutas if they're still around, shutting down the harass attempts. Vessel also makes Lurkers visible and vulnerable to Tank and infantry attacks, so Zerg has to retreat from the position he occupied (considering he tried to set up very standard Lurker contain). Now, Terran pushes out for the second time, usually with 2-3 Tanks and about two control groups of Medic/Marines. This time, he wants to inflict as much damage as possible before Defilers and Dark Swarm come into play. At this stage, Zerg tactics often involve making lot of Sunken colonies to delay the push and/or placing Lurker eggs at chokes to block infantry access to Zerg bases. On certain maps, Zerg will also divide his forces and sent some units through side paths, either to prepare a flanking attack against advancing enemy, or to cut the reinforcements he is sending out.

Finally, if Zerg survives this second stage, the third important moment can be largely in his favor, as it involves spawning many Ultralisks from gas he's been stockpiling so far. Sometimes, this moment has to be postponed or even forsaken, because Terran manages to damage Zerg gas supply or kills some of his important, lower-level tech before Ultralisk Cavern is made. Nevertheless, when Ultralisks come into play, Terran needs to have large Science Vessel count (for mass Irradiate) and/or 3rd base already secured. At this point, some Terrans will transition into Tank-heavy play, using them for defence while keeping some Marines and Medics outside for map control. Note that full-health Ultralisk won't die solely to one Irradiate, and it can turn the radiation against it's distributors, by fighting and poisoning Terran infantry during it's own period of contamination.

TvP [...] - Terran will usually then try to increase factory count, get mines to gain map control while Protoss lacks detection and maybe look to harass probes with vultures.

Timing of Terran Armories is usually a good indication of what plan he is following. No Armory at all, along with rapidly increasing Factory count signatures early timing attack, usually being launched while Protoss is taking his 3rd base. Timing attacks usually aim towards Protoss natural, to either contain him once and for all or just isolate him from 3rd expansion long enough so that expansion can be taken down by other Terran forces. Such pushes are generally conducted with a company of few SCV to make Turrets, repair Tanks and build lift-off structures to get more vision of the battlefield.

On the other hand, if Terran throws down two Armories early on and starts upgrading, it announces long, economy-oriented game. The purpose of this strategy is to steadily boost the damage of Terran Mech and attempt to win the game once the supply and upgrade limit is reached. This bases on a simple fact, that once Terran troops starts to grow in numbers, they gain strength much faster that their Protoss counterparts. On the other hand, this style requires strong game-sense and patient defensive play, as Protoss will usually aim to preserve map control, pick off the Armories by Recalling units near them and/or agressively wear down Terran troops before they can reach critical mass.

Against Arbiters, Terran will usually make lots of Turrets at the edges of his main base, as well as lay minefields behind them to defend from Recalls. He'll also add couple of Science Vessels with EMP Shockwave upgrage to wear down Arbiter energy and Protoss shields. Other common tactics involve Vulture raids to snipe High Templars and building Supply Depot walls to tighten of even block paths that might be used by Protoss forces. Rarely seen possiblilty involves adding Ghosts to the army, hoping to either Lockdown incoming Arbiters or drop a Nuclear Bomb on some enemy mining Nexus (which leads to it's destruction if it's combined with EMP shot beforehand).

Finally, against Carriers, Terran will normally make mass Goliaths and try either to pick off the Interceptors or to chase Carriers with direct fire (or, most often, combine both these options). The other treatment involves making numerous Wraiths with Cloak upgrade and hunting down entire Observer support before attacking the Carriers with invisibility on. It has to be noted that Boxer had some success with Medic Optical Flare against Observers as well as the Lockdown against Carriers themselves, but this kind of offbeat play is seldom seen today, if ever.

Protoss will frequently wall off a third base with pylons to limit this, until he gets a forge (rarely made before they are on three bases) and can place a cannon(s) to ward them off.

Note that this strategy can sometimes be counter-productive, because if Terran drops units into walled-off base, Protoss will have to either ferry the defenders with Shuttle or destroy the Pylon wall from the outside.

- Protoss has a few different tech paths that they can go down. They will usually go towards some form of stargate play - a clue as to which one is building timings, a stargate before they have a templar archives usually indicates carriers (also check the cyber core, if it is spinning midgame after goon range is done, then carriers normally follow), if the stargate/archives are going down at the same time then expect arbiters. Reaver play is occasionally used, normally in a harassing function with drop play or to attack misplaced tanks. The citadel tech route is somewhat more frequent, speed zealots and storms are both useful in countering typical Terran tactics.

During typical ground army engagement, Protoss will attack Terran mech ball with an arc of Dragoons and send out Zealots afterwards to run among Terran Tanks. The purpose of using speed Zealots this way is to drag Spider Mines into Tanks and draw their fire, so they can cripple each other with splash damage. Terran, on the other hand, will use Vultures as meatshields to protect the Tanks and mop up Zealots while ordering Tanks to shoot Dragoon crowd. In the end, Protoss will typically retreat his forces once he loses all his Zealots or, if successful, he'll kill the entire mech ball. Either way, it's unlikely for Terran to run away from such battle when it begins, as Tanks move rather slowly and unsieging them simply takes too much time.

When Carriers come into play, it's quite different. Protoss will try to abuse the cliffs and any unwalkable terrain to provide some cover for his fleet. Terran will try to either corner or encircle the Carriers, moving and shooting with Goliath mass. Standard Protoss response is to keep a squad of Dragoons near Carriers to fight off the Goliaths; in fact, many games with Carriers are decided by the way Terran copes with those Dragoons, as Goliaths are generally terrible at taking them down.
What what the the fuck fuck? That blew my mind so much, I doubled every word in the phrase 'What the fuck' to get: 'What what the the fuck fuck my what the the fuck fucking what did the drop dropship medivac where in the what in the hell?' - Day[9]
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
October 07 2011 09:41 GMT
#288
Foreigner pro house where an e-Sports players association forces them to practice for 12-14 hours a day, please
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Torpedo.Vegas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1890 Posts
October 07 2011 23:55 GMT
#289
The IPL's little BW game of Boxer vs. Huk brought more attention to BW then anything else in recent memory. Maybe that is the way to do. Known SC2 players versus BW legends in friendly matches here and there.
BrosephBrostar
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States445 Posts
October 09 2011 04:20 GMT
#290
Probably not a big deal but the Live on 3 panel just now spoke positively about BW in the west.

I think the key issue can be seen like this: DJWheat is always talking about Quake and how he wishes it was more popular like SC2, but have you ever once heard Tasteless or Artosis or Day9 talk about BW that way?
REDBLUEGREEN
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Germany1904 Posts
October 09 2011 12:50 GMT
#291
On October 05 2011 17:53 Silidons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2011 16:03 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
On October 05 2011 13:59 BrosephBrostar wrote:
On October 05 2011 09:35 Phyrigian wrote:
On October 05 2011 09:24 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
If I may put this out there. Perhaps someone with some computer expertise could improve BW compatibility with today's machines. Like debug some interface issues that usually need various 3rd party mods to fix and create a clean concise package for quick and easy installation and play.

Another thing to consider is improving the quality of the sprites. BW has a distinct look to it, a look that is not helped by todays monitors and resolutions. I am not saying SC2 3D, that would be bad IMO considering how the AI works, but perhaps improving the quality and resolution of the in-game sprites to be more visually appealing outsiders, while still retaining that classic look and feel. I was thinking along the lines of taking a Zealot sprite for example, then perhaps doubling the pixel count with the extra pixels detailing and highlighting the original design.

I honestly think this is going to be a big hurdle for expansion that needs to (in some form) be addressed. What a 10 year BW vet sees and experiences, may not be what a potential newcomer sees and experiences, even if they are looking at the same game.



I've actually been thinking about this for a while. Something like Brood War 2. Like how valve is making DOTA 2. it'd be fucking awesome if someone made it. Everyone would consider the idea insane, considering the game still exists and SC2 is released, but idunno ,its just a cool idea in my head :3

A HD remake like Capcom has been doing with older Street Fighter games would be nice, but I don't think Blizzard actually wants people playing BW anymore.


Blizzard certainly won't do it, they are fully invested in the infrastructure of SC2. But I think this is something the community could do. I mean look at all the third party programs being developed for SC2 or third party support for games like Counter Strike or Elder Scrolls. That is a lot of coding skill being devoted to those games and that is not coming from the developer itself.

Also, this would be in essence a patch to BW, it wouldn't replace the game, but instead update it. Everything else remains the same (for better or worse), but its just a crisper, cleaner and more stable experience.

Personally I think it would be really really awesome if they had everything SC2 has mechanic wise (MBS, more units in a control group, etc etc) but with everything else being exactly like BW (units/cost/maps/buildings etc). They have SC2BW custom map right now but I don't really like it at all...things don't seem right on it, they even increased the size of everything so it feels like you're playing on the hella small res too.

The day I can play BW on 1920x1200 is the day I can die happily xD

There is a BW resolution hack out there, but I am not sure it supported widescreen. I used it to watch replays sometimes. Although it is a little bit unfair as you can see a lot more on one screen with it, but if you are not using it in tounaments I guess no one would mind
Tapppi
Profile Joined July 2011
Finland70 Posts
October 09 2011 13:12 GMT
#292
I hope this gets underway, i just recently started refollowing BW and it seems like foreign community is just a shadow .( we need ppl!
no thanks
Fallacy
Profile Joined September 2010
United States227 Posts
October 13 2011 03:02 GMT
#293
Bumping due to great interest.
Stand up for what you believe in even if it means standing alone.
TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10834 Posts
October 13 2011 04:24 GMT
#294
On October 07 2011 18:41 Bill Murray wrote:
Foreigner pro house where an e-Sports players association forces them to practice for 12-14 hours a day, please


This.
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
Game
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
3191 Posts
October 13 2011 04:26 GMT
#295
On October 13 2011 13:24 GGzerG wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 07 2011 18:41 Bill Murray wrote:
Foreigner pro house where an e-Sports players association forces them to practice for 12-14 hours a day, please


This.

Go get the $100,000 sponsorship. This.
SC is like sex. You should play often, but never too hard. And you should only try hard when it matters.
NagAfightinG
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom270 Posts
October 24 2011 16:43 GMT
#296
On October 02 2011 19:16 LML wrote:
man, all this win7 problems, there is a simple fix: format your PC and install an OS that works fine with BW, even if it's just vista, I never had problems with my BW there.

lol are you fucking kidding me?
We live like animals thinking of the afterlive
TheGlassface
Profile Joined November 2010
United States612 Posts
October 24 2011 16:47 GMT
#297
That D-/D tourney was a great idea, so I missed it.

Bump for great justice here. This topic is amazing.
The mystery of life is not a problem to solve, but a reality to experience. **Hang in there STX fans!! Kal Hwaiting!**
Black[CAT]
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Malaysia2589 Posts
October 24 2011 16:59 GMT
#298
This initiative will have to be really active once the Proleague starts
You mean ESPORTS isnt a synonym for SC2? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -Proud owner of a Filco Majestouch 2 with Cherry Blue Switches- BW or SC2? Why not both?
FraCuS
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1072 Posts
December 05 2011 20:25 GMT
#299
Proleague has already started

LETS GO PEOPLES

/bump/
Apink/Girl's Day/miss A/IU/Crayon Pop/Sistar/Exo K :D l Kpop and Kdrama Enthusiast
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
December 05 2011 20:28 GMT
#300
On December 06 2011 05:25 FraCuS wrote:
Proleague has already started

LETS GO PEOPLES

/bump/


I've been much busier than I initially expected (20 credit hours + work/med volunteering) so I haven't been able to put nearly as much time into this so far as I have wanted; but with finals coming up next week things will be winding down and I should have a bunch of time to devote to working on this.
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
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