We'll we've had a nice couple weeks of discussion in various threads about foreign BW, its problems, its awesomeness and possible ways to improve some problems it has. Now its time to do something about it.
We've got three areas we're looking at here. The first is what can be done to give BW more exposure, how do we perk more interest and get more people to experience BW. The second is what can we do to make BW as accessible as possible to newer players. Finally, there seems to be quite a bit of difficulty for mid range players C-low B+ in that they get stuck in a void and have no good mentors to play with and improve with given the clan situations and ICCup stagnation beyond C-.
In here we want to discuss what were going to do for more BW general exposure
Regular Releasing of Cool Content/Videos/etc: This is basically the idea of consistently (bi-monthly) putting out some short little hype videos of cool games or things that have occured in the proscene. Could be submitted to places like youtube, reddit, etc. Reddit Upvoting: Pretty straightforward. Post awesome things about BW (games, tourneys, hype vids, good guides, etc) and upvote the shit out of them English Casts: We've got a couple awesome casters in Sayle and NuketheStars. I'd like to see that stepped up to the next level and try to consistently have an english cast of proleague. If we could get a couple duo's of people willing to cast they could alternate having a nice 2 person cast every few days and we would consistently be getting english commentary for PL Guide for New Players to Watching BW: Cocky talked about this. Lets get a good guide written up about watching BW. What to looks for, significant events, general basics etc (Cocky if you can flesh out what you want to be included in this that would be awesome) Cool Streamers:Pretty Straightforward. If we could get a featured streamer or two to make it a point to be engaging, informative, and funny on stream it could only be a good thing. Think SlayerS_Dragon type antics with some good explanations and such in there while playing.
Liquipedia Updation:Everyone bitches about liquipedia and how the builds and ideas are outdated and not useful. Well, enough with the bitching lets edit the damn thing, make it friendly to the beginner and were golden. Low Level Clan: sGs was originally intended for this purpose. Let's get that back up and running. Having a low level clan and gathering place where everyone is trying to be friendly and willing to help each other could go a long ways and even start to generate a nice communal sense, rather than strugguling alone by yourself in the void of ICCup Weekly TL BW "Fun Session": Exactly what it says, weekly event where TL gets together and does some goofy BW fun, whether its 2v2v2v2 BGH, team melee, island map 4v4, whatever. Just a community get together to have fun and dick around on BW Proper Serious of VOD's for low level players: This would ideally complement the updated liquipedia and could be linked to as a quick, efficient source of advice for learning BW Match-Making/Scheduled Times for new players to be able to play: Could go along with sGs, but having a designated time or two a week where low level people can get on and play vs each other (even better if we could have a yellow rank for every 4-5 ppl to help out) and just learn the game would be good.
Clans: Apparently many clans don't even consider <B- which creates a big gap for yellow rank players looking to try to break into the "name player" level. AoV is one attempt to fix this. What else?: Not really super up to date on this problem so you guys tell me what needs to happen.
Hype/Highlight Video Makers: Casters for PL: L_Master Fixing Liquipedia: L_Master (obviously gonna need help. and expertise.) Low Level Clan: L_Master Reddit Upvoting: Community Undertaking Submitting Content to Reddit: VOD/Tutorial Series: Streamers: Guide to Watching BW:
What each thing entails: Hype/Highlight Video Makers:Once a month or so make an interesting hype/highlight video showing some of the cool happenings in BW over the past time month. Casters for PL:Straightforward. Cast PL games once or twice a week so we can have English casts for newcomers on a regular basis Fixing Liquipedia:Be willing to update articles or right new ones to replace liquipedia's wholes and outdatedness and/or be willing to lend your knowledge and understanding to make sure guides are accurate Low Level Clan:Help me create a great place for new players to come and thrive, plus get a little coaching. Anybody that's wants to help would be awesome, and any of you yellow ranks that could do a little coaching would be fantastic Reddit Upvoting: Community Undertaking Submitting Content to Reddit:Make a point to submit cool matches, videos, tutorials, articles, etc to reddit and let us know so we can go upvote it VOD/Tutorial Series:Help produce (or assist knowledgewise) a little set for beginning players getting into the game Streamers:Willing to step up and make a serious effort to be a super entertaining/instructive streamer of BW. Think really informative streams like NonY and Day[9] or hilarious and entertaining ones like SlayerS_Dragon. Guide to Watching BW:Cocky, this is your brainchild so let me know exactly what you want to see, but basically just be willing to write a guide explaining what to watch for and be interested in for a BW game.
Well that about covers it. These are the main things I've been seeing discussed that can be done to make the BW community an awesome experience. This thread is mostly about signing up and getting people onboard with the project, but if you see glaring things that could/should be added then definitely let me know.
All we need to do now execute. Walk the walk. It's easy to talk all day about what would be nice, but who here actually wants to help save/improve BW and walk the walk?
As one of the last surviving members of the old sGs I'd love to see some new faces, the clan is pretty barren right now. And the whole idea of getting more of the foreign community just playing BW on a regular basis really appeals to me, and as a (barely) D player I'd like to help - maybe providing some insight into how to make the game more accessible for players starting out.
definently a good move, we can't deny that BW will eventually die but I would agree a few things can be done so spur some life into it.
I mean I swapped from SC2 and Broodwar and I can't believe how much of my time as a kid i wasted played warcraft 3 when I should have been playing Broodwar
It is the most amazing RTS/Game I have ever played and the community is amazing.
Though your initiative is admirable, I fear it might not be as useful as you think it is. SC:BW may have a huge history and many forum veterans may be emotionally linked to this game, but it is an understatement to say that SC:BW is overshadowed by his little brother.
You speak about helping new players. That's always a great idea, but who is going to start BW now that SC 2 is out. I'm not speaking about gameplay but about opportunity, most high-level BW foreign players have switched over to SC 2. Why would a brand new player chooser BW over SC 2 when his favorite players are playing SC 2? Who is going to learn about Flash greatness when this guy never appears on streams ? You will certainly have some SC 2 players who will try out BW in order to improve drastically their mechanics/APM, and that should be your public not brand new players.
Don't worry more people will get into watching bw when the PL and OSL, and hopefully the MSL start again. The reason for this is because it's much more exciting to watch an event when it's live and with other fans that just go through VOD's. And of course some of these people who have never played bw will want to try it, and will start playing it and others who haven't played in a long time will get nostalgic of times past and will start playing again.
On September 29 2011 17:07 Otolia wrote: Though your initiative is admirable, I fear it might not be as useful as you think it is. SC:BW may have a huge history and many forum veterans may be emotionally linked to this game, but it is an understatement to say that SC:BW is overshadowed by his little brother.
You speak about helping new players. That's always a great idea, but who is going to start BW now that SC 2 is out. I'm not speaking about gameplay but about opportunity, most high-level BW foreign players have switched over to SC 2. Why would a brand new player chooser BW over SC 2 when his favorite players are playing SC 2? Who is going to learn about Flash greatness when this guy never appears on streams ? You will certainly have some SC 2 players who will try out BW in order to improve drastically their mechanics/APM, and that should be your public not brand new players.
I'll try not to be too antagonistic (and spark a 45 page long argument about BW and SC2), but I feel that there is a large majority of people who don't care about "opportunity" but think that the BW experience is superior (for them), and thus will play BW over SC2. I myself don't really plan on going anywhere with Starcraft (and that is my own choice), but it's a fun experience, and I think you may be generalising the entire community with your own opinions (which I'm not saying are wrong).
On September 29 2011 17:07 Otolia wrote: Though your initiative is admirable, I fear it might not be as useful as you think it is. SC:BW may have a huge history and many forum veterans may be emotionally linked to this game, but it is an understatement to say that SC:BW is overshadowed by his little brother.
You speak about helping new players. That's always a great idea, but who is going to start BW now that SC 2 is out. I'm not speaking about gameplay but about opportunity, most high-level BW foreign players have switched over to SC 2. Why would a brand new player chooser BW over SC 2 when his favorite players are playing SC 2? Who is going to learn about Flash greatness when this guy never appears on streams ? You will certainly have some SC 2 players who will try out BW in order to improve drastically their mechanics/APM, and that should be your public not brand new players.
I'll try not to be too antagonistic (and spark a 45 page long argument about BW and SC2), but I feel that there is a large majority of people who don't care about "opportunity" but think that the BW experience is superior (for them), and thus will play BW over SC2. I myself don't really plan on going anywhere with Starcraft (and that is my own choice), but it's a fun experience, and I think you may be generalising the entire community with your own opinions (which I'm not saying are wrong).
Maximus Brood has taken in several low level players in the past few weeks and I have personally helped them move forward little by little. I myself am not a good player, but have and always will support and train new players. That includes working with them, helping them work through mistakes, and teaching them how to watch their replays in order for them to find what they need to improve.
So, first thing first, we need to get a wider audience, thus spreading information/streams/live gamestream to other websites is important. Some of those new spectators will wanna play BW and thus we'll have more newer players. I think I might be able to help with submitting content to Reddit...only used reddit once to upvote something though...
I like the idea of a low level clan. I was looking to start playing BW again (and by "again" I mean I only ever played like 30 games several years ago, majority of which I've lost ), but I've been kinda lazy about finally doing it. Having a group of people start at the same time and someone I can just play with anytime would be great.
I'm willing to help out with it as well from an organizational standpoint.
sounds great, sadly I don't have too many abilities here and lately not that much time since I've started uni. Something I had in mind of doing was coaching lower players on stream so everyone can take something out of it. But I first have to get settled at uni and wait another week or two to see how much workload it actually is before I know when I will have the time to actually still play BW which comes a little short lately and I am a little sad about that.
For videos, I guess I could find the time on weekends to make videos but my skills are very low, so don't expect anything more than BW in those without any effects;)
On September 29 2011 17:07 Otolia wrote: Though your initiative is admirable, I fear it might not be as useful as you think it is. SC:BW may have a huge history and many forum veterans may be emotionally linked to this game, but it is an understatement to say that SC:BW is overshadowed by his little brother.
You speak about helping new players. That's always a great idea, but who is going to start BW now that SC 2 is out. I'm not speaking about gameplay but about opportunity, most high-level BW foreign players have switched over to SC 2. Why would a brand new player chooser BW over SC 2 when his favorite players are playing SC 2? Who is going to learn about Flash greatness when this guy never appears on streams ? You will certainly have some SC 2 players who will try out BW in order to improve drastically their mechanics/APM, and that should be your public not brand new players.
I think you're really overthinking this nice initiative and I really feel there is no place for negativity here. I mean why would you possibly be negative in trying to get some new players interested with BW scene... I don't think no one is delusional here in thinking we can get as many people as some of the newer games have, but that's not the point of this post. The point is even if we can help out a handful of people interested in this beautiful game, I'd say it's worth it.
Hey ! Really really nice post and guide, I like this idea and I think it will help strengthen foreign BW as a whole if we all worked together and kept each other posted and kept this thread updated, i'm only going to play BW now and i'll try to be streaming every day again from now on, so you could count me on the "Streamers" list, of course I have to get a mic so I can do some play by play analysis while im playing , and I can also stream in fullscreen.
My max rank was B- with Protoss when I played, I recently hit C+ with Zerg a month or so ago, C- as terran and C+ as toss as well, hopefully I can get back to the skill I used to be, I will gladly help anyone who wants the help, and if you need help with this clan I can try to help as well.
My personal opinion is that more and more BW streams are popping up everyday so that is a wonderful thing, people need to keep streaming so others can see and be encouraged to play as well, i'm having it a little rough because I just got back from sc2 , also I agree, there def. needs to be more featured BW streams... :-P
Even with all new guys going along with little brother, BW still has tournaments with nice prize pool and ~700 live viewers. What I mean is, $1500 prize pool, sayle being the only guy streaming and we still have ~700 live viewers. There would be a lot more if more initiative was taken by more people and not just Game/Sayle/a small bunch of other people.
Except for the streams, ISL has Starleague level organizational structure. Sayle is great, awesome, all that good jazz, but a single guy streaming and casting all of these with some broadcasts taking 13ish hours with no break means streaming needs help. I also feel that I need to congratulate Sayle here because of the 13 hour solo broadcast. I wish someone else also stepped up for that. Elegant did this for quite a while but I don't see him under ISL any more.
So, you guys must be wondering why I took a paragraph to talk about ISL, let me connect it to the topic and continue with my seemingly tryhard motivational great wall of text. With TL as a brand pulling out of BW completely, we still have an exceptionally good tourney which is organized by literally some guys.
Speaking of "some guys", that is officially what we are (no offense to any of us, but TL BW community, which is some forum goers that play and watch BW together in a forum despite that forum being TL makes us some guys in the eyes of someone who is looking from outside).
Also, "some guys" is the form of anything, any organizational structure, any company when it's just founded. What I mean is, BW may be dying in the eyes of some, but it is reincarnating in my eyes. So, what I mean is that this is not a "last hurrah". This is an opportunity. To start a tradition. Just like TSL. We may expand this and eventually turn this into something big. But that is in our hands.
Enough with the motivational part, I think there can be another low level clan that can be founded initially. One means monopoly, 2 means competition, right? Other than that, well... Nothing that is not written by L_Master comes in my mind.
Hey! I would be interested in being involved with all of this. I've never played BW, but I'm gonna pick it up and would like to know how to get all set up and started with it. I heard that it has a lot of problems on Windows 7 and high resolutions like 1920x1080.
I would definitely be interested in playing the game and learning how to play BW to a certain degree of skill.
If you could help a new player get the game set up and having fun with players, that would be great!
Like some others I plan on returning to the sGs clan after a long hiatus due to being sick for quite some time... Although I am by no means a competition for most casters out there in terms of pointing out facts and strategies I could at least contribute to the quantity of VoDs. Casting PL in duos seems like an awesome idea. Count me in, although university could kinda limit the time I have at hand. Its either that or whatever help you need for editing liquipedia. I just do not have the time atm to research where to start and what to contribute
On September 29 2011 19:50 Mirosuu wrote: Hey! I would be interested in being involved with all of this. I've never played BW, but I'm gonna pick it up and would like to know how to get all set up and started with it. I heard that it has a lot of problems on Windows 7 and high resolutions like 1920x1080.
I would definitely be interested in playing the game and learning how to play BW to a certain degree of skill.
If you could help a new player get the game set up and having fun with players, that would be great!
Personally, I've never encountered problems with BW since switching to Win 7 and I know few people who did, so no worries there .
If you want some practice before being thrown in the smurf-pit just ask pretty much anyone on op sGs (does that channel still exist?) or op teamliquid. People there are either afk or extremely nice and helpful
On September 29 2011 19:50 Mirosuu wrote: Hey! I would be interested in being involved with all of this. I've never played BW, but I'm gonna pick it up and would like to know how to get all set up and started with it. I heard that it has a lot of problems on Windows 7 and high resolutions like 1920x1080.
I would definitely be interested in playing the game and learning how to play BW to a certain degree of skill.
If you could help a new player get the game set up and having fun with players, that would be great!
Windows 7 did have some issues but there are fixes out there that blizz brought out recently.
Also Bw cannot be played at 1920x1080. The screen can be streched at full screen. But it loks messy and rather unpleasent to the eyes ( I have same res as you do).
Windowed mode looks good, but on 1920-1080 the normal windowed mode looks tiny and is barely seeable. the x2 windowed looks good and is what I generally use.
On September 29 2011 19:41 Djagulingu wrote: I wish someone else also stepped up for that. Elegant did this for quite a while but I don't see him under ISL any more.
I had no internet for nearly 3 weeks since I moved house. Just got it back a coupla days ago sorry to disappoint you though, honestly.
Friday until monday I will have plenty of time to consider options and plan properly. L_Master, I'll send you a PM- there are more people floating around here who are looking to get on board with some proper BW spreading initiatives.
This is a wonderful idea imo, and I would love to get involved in this.
Back when I was a kid in middle school, my friends and I persuaded our computer teacher to let us install bw on the school's computer lab so that every lunch break we would go and play 3v3s, 4v4s or ffa. And of course the occasional 1v1 grudge match :p. Best teacher ever. It was absolutely awesome. At home, however, I found myself playing almost exclusively UMS games on bnet. I guess I was still just a kid and hadn't found that competitived edge compelling me to try ladder.
Naturally, it wasn't long before these socially unacceptable lunch break LAN parties became too "nerdy" to continue, and so, after about a year, all of us sadly "grew out of" brood war.
I think the first time I heard about the Korean pro scene was around probably around 2005 from one of my friends who I played with back in middle school. We had both graduated from high school at that point and had moved to different countries. Neither of us had actually attempted to watch a pro bw match so we laughed at the idea of a cultural frenzy attempting to turn a foreign video game into a professional sport. Everything about korean broodwar seemed incomprehensibly strange to us.
And so, for whatever reason (probably a mix of yearning for nostalgia, and a prevailing belief that video games are mostly complete garbage these days), in 2009 I decided to actually watch a couple of games. I was compelled, especially by the incessant yelling and unbreakable enthusiasm of the korean commentators, but I was not instantly hooked. However, once I discovered the english commentators on youtube (huge shoutout and thank you to NukeTheStars for being one of the biggest influences in making me passionate about pro bw) I was fully hooked. By the time the ever osl 2009 came around, I was watching every new vod getting released and speedily making my way through the back catalogue of osl vods.
And so, naturally, I attempted to go back to bnet and use my newfound enthusiasm to test out my skills once more. I played a lot of Koreans.... Out of the 40 or so games I played before I realised I was in over my head, I won one game. It was a zvt, and the terran didn't make enough turrets to fend off my muta harrass. It was the greatest victory of all ti.. well not really but it felt really good!
This seems like a great idea. I'd love to be involved with streaming, but then I'd have to go buy a new mic and stuff. TT Oh well, for Brood War <3 sGs was supposed to be a low level clan, but everyone was inactive, myself included. Liquipedia editing I can try to help out on aswell. If I had a little bit of time to get used to High School, sorting out my priorities, then I could start to contribute.
On September 29 2011 19:41 Djagulingu wrote: Enough with the motivational part, I think there can be another low level clan that can be founded initially. One means monopoly, 2 means competition, right? Other than that, well... Nothing that is not written by L_Master comes in my mind.
Yea, I like that idea, having something to look forward to and actually get practice in Clanwars is something really important, I remember my first time playing a CW in BWCL .. gosh, I was pretty nervous and andrenaline was pumping through my body, besides the fact that I was pretty bad back then, it made me play worse than usual;) It needs some time before you can just play normal when playing CW matches or while some1 streams you, best practice might be to stream yourself and maybe people watching your stream can actually help you, people helped me on my stream several times and I improved thanks to that.
On September 29 2011 20:16 Mirosuu wrote: Thank you for all the help! I'm downloading it now and I'll use all your advice and should get up and running soon! :D
Let me know if you have trouble with window mode on the ICCup launcher in Windows 7. I keep getting and RT error message so I have to use MiniLauncher instead. Anyone else having trouble with ICCup window mode?
On September 29 2011 19:41 Djagulingu wrote: I wish someone else also stepped up for that. Elegant did this for quite a while but I don't see him under ISL any more.
I had no internet for nearly 3 weeks since I moved house. Just got it back a coupla days ago sorry to disappoint you though, honestly.
Friday until monday I will have plenty of time to consider options and plan properly. L_Master, I'll send you a PM- there are more people floating around here who are looking to get on board with some proper BW spreading initiatives.
Oh, I never knew about that. Nice to have you back. You have such a nice accent. I enjoyed your casting.
Protip if you have ATI (probably works on Nvidia aswell but I don't have that so dunno) you can enable GPU scaling so when you start BW the screen goes to 4:3 aspect ratio by itselfs and when you alt-tab or exit the game your screen will be standard again.
Everytime I watch Brood War I fall in love with it since I didn't play much at all, and it was at the very tail end of Brood War. I live in Australia and generally whenever I log onto Iccup the games are either too laggy or there aren't many on during my peak times, plus I had tech difficulties in general.
I'll keep trying to find a way to consistently play, because I love the game to death, but the activity of Sc2 is just so much easier and more convienient for me :[
I have no doubt there are loads of people in my boat.
I'll be streaming once I get a better computer :D And I can't wait if we could get some more hype! Things like the gambit cup and ISL2 are holding things together. Now we just need loads more of those kinds of tournaments.
I think the main barrier is that everyone has some block in their mind that tells them they need to play either sc2 Or bw. Just get people in interested in both. I love watching OSL just as much as GSL.
Getting into brood war is hard, I understand all the units, but basically nothing else. Its really intimidating trying to get into brood war as a player. I also don't know anyone who plays brood war, offline or online on a personal level.
On September 30 2011 00:13 TBone- wrote: Its really intimidating trying to get into brood war as a player. I also don't know anyone who plays brood war, offline or online on a personal level.
Yes, that's true imho. I know one single person offline who likes to play BW and next to none online. Plus, having watched my first game in late 2009 and picked it up only months after that, I still suck badly at competitive 1v1. And that's where non-competitive fun games come into play. Those random race wars are fun no matter your 1v1 skill level and manage to get you hooked. Plus they also train your mechanics and you get to know new people in a "casual" atmosphere. Talk about killing two birds with one stone btw: I think there are more people like us two who have problems finding BW friends on or offline. That's a reason why we should get these n00b-clans working again...
PM me if you want to play BW. I'm always down for fun games! After the game I'm def. willing to help you figure out things wrong in your play etc... I love coaching people in BW!
I've been trying to figure out how to stream but my FMLE just seems to be crashing every few seconds. One day soon I'm going to fix it and stream!
On September 29 2011 22:24 9heart wrote: I'll join up with whomever is polishing up the WIKI. pm me also, once in a while I'll be posing a hype video of latest broodwar happenings.
This would be so awesome. Make sure that eveyone gets to see it to, start a thread or so.
Also, do you remember the summarys of PL games two dudes made a few years back? That was awesome. Someone mildly technical might get on that? I have a project with liquipedia going on right now, so you can sign me up for that if you want or whatever. Im gonna do it anyways
Since this would be difficult to coordinate over TL as we would need a bunch of different threads, some of which would probably get lose in the shuffle I went ahead and made a central webpage here:
On September 30 2011 00:29 CaucasianAsian wrote: PM me if you want to play BW. I'm always down for fun games! After the game I'm def. willing to help you figure out things wrong in your play etc... I love coaching people in BW!
You love coaching people oO! Awesome! Do you play on ICCup under the same ID?
Just like it was before SC2. Make it featured. Bring Day[9] as the pro and Chill as the caster. I bet we could make 200 more BW players out of it
Even if both of them aren't available for the event, bring Sayle as the caster and Kiante as the pro! Or any other recognized BW players, lets just do it
On September 30 2011 01:06 fabiano wrote: You know what would be AWESOME?
TL BW Attack
Just like it was before SC2. Make it featured. Bring Day[9] as the pro and Chill as the caster. I bet we could make 200 more BW players out of it
Even if both of them aren't available for the event, bring Sayle as the caster and Kiante as the pro! Or any other recognized BW players, lets just do it
Ah, good idea man; iccup was doing something like this before with ICCup attack but I never really felt like it got massive exposure
Not sure who we can get as casters (people like Day[9], Chill, Sayle would be amazing) but I'm sure we can get some of the current top foriegners to play. It would be pretty cool if we did like a 5-10 episode series and then for the last episode got a well-known former top foreigner to come play.
On September 30 2011 01:06 fabiano wrote: You know what would be AWESOME?
TL BW Attack
Just like it was before SC2. Make it featured. Bring Day[9] as the pro and Chill as the caster. I bet we could make 200 more BW players out of it
Even if both of them aren't available for the event, bring Sayle as the caster and Kiante as the pro! Or any other recognized BW players, lets just do it
That's a great idea, it would go great on the website LMaster has created *hint hint*
I think we could definitely get some of the top foreigners that are making a name for themselves in the ISL, Defiler.ru, etc tournaments. It would also add more opportunities for new casters to step to the plate and throw down some commentary.
For people asking about reviving the noob-clan, here's our website. You can get some info there, I just got done cutting out some of the stuff we hardly used so hopefully it'll make it more straightforward. We've been inactive for awhile. Turns out it's a pretty tricky thing to keep a clan active nowadays (small pool of members and we have lives). I think before this can truly be a successful clan we'd really need to find our identity.
For people asking about reviving the noob-clan, here's our website. You can get some info there, I just got done cutting out some of the stuff we hardly used so hopefully it'll make it more straightforward. We've been inactive for awhile. Turns out it's a pretty tricky thing to keep a clan active nowadays (small pool of members and we have lives). I think before this can truly be a successful clan we'd really need to find our identity.
I agree. What I really see sGs becoming is THE place for people new to BW. I think there are a few main things that need to happen for this to be successful: -Regular Times we will meet to play -Availability - Don't just go ladder, see if clanmates are on and want to practice first -Hanging out in Channel - having that sense of community is good, if people are always in op sGs talking starcraft it helps create some of that sense of community and not just "playing in a void"
If op sGs becomes the place for players new to BW just starting out to go and there are consistently new players in there to play with or more experienced ones to get coached by, then I think we will have achieved our objective.
On September 30 2011 01:06 fabiano wrote: You know what would be AWESOME?
TL BW Attack
Just like it was before SC2. Make it featured. Bring Day[9] as the pro and Chill as the caster. I bet we could make 200 more BW players out of it
Even if both of them aren't available for the event, bring Sayle as the caster and Kiante as the pro! Or any other recognized BW players, lets just do it
That sounds cool On getting Day[9] as pro and Chill as caster, I gotta a feeling that they wont participate in this. As always, this TL BW Attack must be publicize well on TL and on reddit and any other websites
On September 30 2011 01:06 fabiano wrote: You know what would be AWESOME?
TL BW Attack
Just like it was before SC2. Make it featured. Bring Day[9] as the pro and Chill as the caster. I bet we could make 200 more BW players out of it
Even if both of them aren't available for the event, bring Sayle as the caster and Kiante as the pro! Or any other recognized BW players, lets just do it
Ah, good idea man; iccup was doing something like this before with ICCup attack but I never really felt like it got massive exposure
Not sure who we can get as casters (people like Day[9], Chill, Sayle would be amazing) but I'm sure we can get some of the current top foriegners to play. It would be pretty cool if we did like a 5-10 episode series and then for the last episode got a well-known former top foreigner to come play.
For people asking about reviving the noob-clan, here's our website. You can get some info there, I just got done cutting out some of the stuff we hardly used so hopefully it'll make it more straightforward. We've been inactive for awhile. Turns out it's a pretty tricky thing to keep a clan active nowadays (small pool of members and we have lives). I think before this can truly be a successful clan we'd really need to find our identity.
I agree. What I really see sGs becoming is THE place for people new to BW. I think there are a few main things that need to happen for this to be successful: -Regular Times we will meet to play -Availability - Don't just go ladder, see if clanmates are on and want to practice first -Hanging out in Channel - having that sense of community is good, if people are always in op sGs talking starcraft it helps create some of that sense of community and not just "playing in a void"
If op sGs becomes the place for players new to BW just starting out to go and there are consistently new players in there to play with or more experienced ones to get coached by, then I think we will have achieved our objective.
The problem we saw with the channel is that it pulled people away from op teamliquid, which I now believe should be completely avoided because it's more of a community separation, instead of addition. Anyhow, I propose we continue this conversation elsewhere so as to not bog down this thread. Perhaps a section on your website to discuss clans/community?
On September 30 2011 01:06 fabiano wrote: You know what would be AWESOME?
TL BW Attack
Just like it was before SC2. Make it featured. Bring Day[9] as the pro and Chill as the caster. I bet we could make 200 more BW players out of it
Even if both of them aren't available for the event, bring Sayle as the caster and Kiante as the pro! Or any other recognized BW players, lets just do it
Ah, good idea man; iccup was doing something like this before with ICCup attack but I never really felt like it got massive exposure
Not sure who we can get as casters (people like Day[9], Chill, Sayle would be amazing) but I'm sure we can get some of the current top foriegners to play. It would be pretty cool if we did like a 5-10 episode series and then for the last episode got a well-known former top foreigner to come play.
On September 30 2011 00:29 CaucasianAsian wrote: PM me if you want to play BW. I'm always down for fun games! After the game I'm def. willing to help you figure out things wrong in your play etc... I love coaching people in BW!
You love coaching people oO! Awesome! Do you play on ICCup under the same ID?
Signing up for the webpage right nao!
I don't use this ID on ICCUP. To be honest, I don't play much on ICCUP, mostly on BrainClan/Fish. But PM me for time/date or skype/msn and I can get on ICCUP whenever.
Great iniciative! I'm so participating (as a scrub tho) in this!
How about a Showmatch between old foreign leyends?
I mean, a BW Attack featuring people of the caliber of Day[9] is a long shot, but, if it's possible. ¿Do you think it would be remotely possible to do a Show-Championship between significant players/commentators on nowadays sc2 scene and bw foreign scene? That would be awesome.
On September 30 2011 04:42 Relickey wrote: That website layout is atrocious. It looks very unprofessional, and it's design is bad. There is a lot of empty space as well. Please fix it.
While I certainly do appreciate any and all feedback, this is like the last possible thing I'm worried about. This isn't a webpage that will be presented to the community at large in any way, its just a "behind the scenes" place to discuss how to achieve our goals, timetables that would be good to hit, etc.
On September 30 2011 04:42 Relickey wrote: That website layout is atrocious. It looks very unprofessional, and it's design is bad. There is a lot of empty space as well. Please fix it.
My tentative idea for timetables of our various aims:
Hype/Highlight Video Makers - No real timetable; up to members of the community to take this on. Would definitely be good to start putting out a few hype videos by late October before/for the start of proleague though
Fixing Liquipedia - I'm thinking it's reasonable in one months to have liquipedia at the point where it has one solid "current" BO for each MU, a general guide for each race, micro guide, macro/hotkeys guide, and some basic stuff about how to improve.
Low Level Clan - Starts now, the basic idea is that anybody that's new or willing to help coach will have an sGs tag making it very easy for new players to find other lower level or helpful players to play with. Within in a week it should be possible to have set times where people can make a point to be on.
Reddit Upvoting - Up to the community and posters of content, they tell us when they have posted something, we discuss/upvote/support etc.
Submitting Content to Reddit - Same as hype/highlight video
VOD/Tutorial Series - Probably the biggest undertaking. Maybe we can have this done by the end of the year?
Streamers - Starts now, make a point to explain what your doing, interact with your viewers, troll/clown around, be funny, whatever suits you.
BW Fun Activities - Starts 9/3! 2v2v2v2 BGH
Guide to Watching BW - This should be completed by end of October so its available for when proleague starts.
hmmm...been playing sc2 since christmas. Used to play wc2 and it seems like the same gfx as BW. I'm starting to think i might want to get brood war for lulz and to make me a better sc2 player
ahhhh hmmmm I guess I should start getting to work on some of those Protoss guides/builds I've been planning to write .. but I've been so lazy/busy T3T no excuse tho looool
I've been trying to get into actually playing BW for the last couple of weeks and would really appreciate some good learning resources. I'd especially like some FPVOD's or Streams of good Terrans so I could imitate them. I haven't been able to find much myself.
On September 30 2011 06:20 Mise wrote: I've been trying to get into actually playing BW for the last couple of weeks and would really appreciate some good learning resources. I'd especially like some FPVOD's or Streams of good Terrans so I could imitate them. I haven't been able to find much myself.
If you want FPVOD's these are fantastic: BNET Attack
Basically a slew of VOD's (FPView) of many, many progamers including Sea, Fantasy, Flash, Light, hiyA, etc. Good streams to look out for are agavond, hirosue2, Qeet, and at least a couple others, though terrans are the least represented in streams at the moment.
This initiative is just getting off the ground so there isn't tons of new content yet, but certainly feel free to ask for help, coaching, etc from myself or anyone else that's posted expressing interest in coaching.
Chill is awesome, maybe we could get him to cast for a few hours in a couple of months? Make it featured, im sure TL wont be against it since its still a BW site...
I think we need to address the issue of streamers. We need people who appeals to the newbies of BW. BW streamers in general need to talk more and explain to their viewers what they are doing.
It would be insane if we could a prominant member of the SC2 community to help us out, but that is extremely unlikely.
On the subject of vods, I was planning on to upload funny videos explaining BW but school started and now I dont have enough time
On September 30 2011 07:25 Docmedical wrote: I think we need to address the issue of streamers. We need people who appeals to the newbies of BW. BW streamers in general need to talk more and explain to their viewers what they are doing.
It would be insane if we could a prominant member of the SC2 community to help us out, but that is extremely unlikely.
I think that we could get a personality to help us, such as Day[9], other casters or even some TL staff to give this some more attention, but individually I don't think so. There wouldn't be much in it for them so they wouldn't be as interested tbh.
Any visibility on this really does help, and streamers to appeal to newer people is a great idea!
I tried to help C/C+ ranks into the blue ranks but with school and trying to improve myself I don't have enough time to coach a full team, only a few people. In the end anyone can learn themselves if they put the effort into it. So while these ideas are good, most of the time the people who are complaining about coaching don't want to try enough to improve, they just think that they will instantly improve with the help of a better player as their coach.
I think it helps a great deal to have semi-automated regular (daily/weekly/monthly etc) tournaments, for all levels, including absolute beginners. Maybe z33k could get a BW section? It's easier if they do it, because they just need to duplicate most of the database stuff they already have for SC2.
The idea is to grow respect for fellow BW players regardless of level. "E"/"D-" players also try to improve, and can also compete between each other. Tournament settings introduce better sportsmanship than ladder usually, because they are more personal.
The problem is that it seems like Chill/Day[9]/Kennegit et al. are focusing on SC2 now, it is very unlikely they will have time to spend with BW.
I still think making a featured TL BW Attack! with michael, sneatzel, koll and any other top foreign player would be enough to draw some attention to BW. But for that to be possible there must be organization and people dedicated to the event, not just one guy making things 'on the fly'.
I wish I had the influence/contacts/time to help, but for me its nearly impossible to do so. All I can do is cheer for the best and stream my noobness whenever I can :/
On September 30 2011 07:25 Docmedical wrote: I think we need to address the issue of streamers. We need people who appeals to the newbies of BW. BW streamers in general need to talk more and explain to their viewers what they are doing.
Then we need a very step by step guide. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to stream now.
On September 30 2011 07:25 Docmedical wrote: I think we need to address the issue of streamers. We need people who appeals to the newbies of BW. BW streamers in general need to talk more and explain to their viewers what they are doing.
Then we need a very step by step guide. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to stream now.
Ive wanted to stream/cast for a long time but my video card is a piece of shit and i dont have money for a new card or computer (computer is what i really need). Is there any way I can stream or cast or anything that doesnt require good specs?
I cant really play bw atm either because of a shoulder injury but Id like to share my strategical knowledge in some way. In particular I should have plenty of free time coming up this weekend so id be up for spending some time doing whatever is needed/possible to help out. any suggestions?
So, as part of updating Liquipedia I was going to watch all the 2006 GomTV S1 MSL games, and then I had an idea. Wouldn't it be awesome if we got a bunch of people together and started watching all the VODs from old MLS, Proleagues and such and picked out the very best, and then found someone to cast them in English and explain why the games are important in the history of bw? It would also lead to us having a modernized list of recommended games, and it could be a lot of fun if we got a bunch of people watching and discussing the games at the same time, we could set up a skype call or something ^_^
1) Getting Well-Known TL personalities/former BW players to get involved at some point in one way or another. 2) Regular Tournaments for Low Level Players 3) TL/BNET Attack style show with top foreigners and possibly a legend of old 4) English Commentary/Historical Significance of Legendary BW Games
I think they are all good ideas and all talk about each one briefly: 1)Certainly would be awesome if we could get them to do this, especially if they promoted/mentioned it ahead of time. That said, I think we should get everything rolling and progress being made before we even reach out to these guys. That way, when the interest is peaked, there is already an awesome community/infrastructure in place. 2)Great Idea, don't see any reason not to. Only worry is smurfs but if we just make it an on TL sign up sort of thing we shouldn't have too much of an issue with rampant smurfing. 3)This is definitely on the radar as well, and is always an entertaining way to get new viewers, expose the awesomeness of BW, and give people the chance to learn a little about the game. 4)Don't see any problems with it, though that may well be covered by what the newly minted "BW Historian" position on TL staff will be doing.
I cant really play bw atm either because of a shoulder injury but Id like to share my strategical knowledge in some way. In particular I should have plenty of free time coming up this weekend so id be up for spending some time doing whatever is needed/possible to help out. any suggestions?
Awesome!
Any coaching your willing to do is fantastic, as well as doing a "workshop" for a group of players explaining various things about the game, about a specific MU, etc.
As far as streaming specs go I was able to stream okay on my previous comp with like 2 GHz processor and something like 2 GB RAM (been awhile, can't remember exactly). I could never use super good looking settings, and definitely had to be concerned about FMLE eating too much processing power.
On September 30 2011 11:05 L_Master wrote: So some of the ideas I'm seeing pop up alot are:
1) Getting Well-Known TL personalities/former BW players to get involved at some point in one way or another. 2) Regular Tournaments for Low Level Players 3) TL/BNET Attack style show with top foreigners and possibly a legend of old
I think they are all good ideas and all talk about each one briefly: 1)Certainly would be awesome if we could get them to do this, especially if they promoted/mentioned it ahead of time. That said, I think we should get everything rolling and progress being made before we even reach out to these guys. That way, when the interest is peaked, there is already an awesome community/infrastructure in place. 2)Great Idea, don't see any reason not to. Only worry is smurfs but if we just make it an on TL sign up sort of thing we shouldn't have too much of an issue with rampant smurfing. 3)This is definitely on the radar as well, and is always an entertaining way to get new viewers, expose the awesomeness of BW, and give people the chance to learn a little about the game.
Back when iCCup was functional I was the super admin of events and nOoNe/me/Sayle (where he actually started casting at) did iCCup Attacks with top players and players of notoriety including TL's own Shauni. They were a HUGE success. I don't think there is a base for such an event with such a community divide unless it was well advertised to the players and possibly consisted of a monetary prize. Anyone worth watching only plays when there is $ involved these days. Despite that, if someone could pull off a _insert name here_ Attack! it'd be amazing and highly successful. Not to mention I personally think Sayle would enjoy casting it, and he's always a good guy to have around
P.S. Despite retiring in 9 days.. organizing an event such as an attack doesn't take a lot of work, and I'd be willing to help anyone through the entire process + player relations that is willing to step up and is capable.
On another note, I've only browsed through much of this thread and read the posts of people that I respect as valuable and knowledgeable members of the community. Being honest.
Given that, I think there are a lot of valid points in this thread, and a surprisingly low amount of BW vs SC2 trolling (very commendable), and I'm offering up my services as another knowledgeable character for any questions people might have. I know this thread actually has turned itself into a mini-project with not too much contributions (but infinite potential). But, if anyone has any curiosities that they think I could help them clarify, just contact me, because after all, I love the foreign BW community passionately.
On September 30 2011 06:02 ArvickHero wrote: ahhhh hmmmm I guess I should start getting to work on some of those Protoss guides/builds I've been planning to write ..
Great! I like the ones you've put out on TL so far (the Neo-Bisu-Build one and the "How to react to scouting info in PvZ" one; been awhile though T.T)
On September 30 2011 10:48 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I cant really play bw atm either because of a shoulder injury but Id like to share my strategical knowledge in some way. In particular I should have plenty of free time coming up this weekend so id be up for spending some time doing whatever is needed/possible to help out. any suggestions?
Apart from coaching/workshops if you like to spend time with no people around you could do a strategic cast of interesting games. You know, like the ones Day[9] used to do. Explaining the different approaches to the MU and/or possible thought processes behind that. Possibly combined with some general advice of sorts
On September 30 2011 14:55 TheNessman wrote: i'm going to say it here first because i'm a little scared but i seriously want to cast bw in english with the start of the next pl ><
+1, I was thinking of doing the exact same thing. Been putting it off for too long and who knows how long the opportunity will be around, though I know were all hoping the answer is forever.
On September 30 2011 06:02 ArvickHero wrote: ahhhh hmmmm I guess I should start getting to work on some of those Protoss guides/builds I've been planning to write ..
Great! I like the ones you've put out on TL so far (the Neo-Bisu-Build one and the "How to react to scouting info in PvZ" one; been awhile though T.T)
On September 30 2011 10:48 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I cant really play bw atm either because of a shoulder injury but Id like to share my strategical knowledge in some way. In particular I should have plenty of free time coming up this weekend so id be up for spending some time doing whatever is needed/possible to help out. any suggestions?
Apart from coaching/workshops if you like to spend time with no people around you could do a strategic cast of interesting games. You know, like the ones Day[9] used to do. Explaining the different approaches to the MU and/or possible thought processes behind that. Possibly combined with some general advice of sorts
And get well soon ofc ~.~
that would be great but requires a decent computer afaik..?
Even with all new guys going along with little brother, BW still has tournaments with nice prize pool and ~700 live viewers. What I mean is, $1500 prize pool, sayle being the only guy streaming and we still have ~700 live viewers. There would be a lot more if more initiative was taken by more people and not just Game/Sayle/a small bunch of other people.
Except for the streams, ISL has Starleague level organizational structure. Sayle is great, awesome, all that good jazz, but a single guy streaming and casting all of these with some broadcasts taking 13ish hours with no break means streaming needs help. I also feel that I need to congratulate Sayle here because of the 13 hour solo broadcast. I wish someone else also stepped up for that. Elegant did this for quite a while but I don't see him under ISL any more.
So, you guys must be wondering why I took a paragraph to talk about ISL, let me connect it to the topic and continue with my seemingly tryhard motivational great wall of text. With TL as a brand pulling out of BW completely, we still have an exceptionally good tourney which is organized by literally some guys.
Speaking of "some guys", that is officially what we are (no offense to any of us, but TL BW community, which is some forum goers that play and watch BW together in a forum despite that forum being TL makes us some guys in the eyes of someone who is looking from outside).
Also, "some guys" is the form of anything, any organizational structure, any company when it's just founded. What I mean is, BW may be dying in the eyes of some, but it is reincarnating in my eyes. So, what I mean is that this is not a "last hurrah". This is an opportunity. To start a tradition. Just like TSL. We may expand this and eventually turn this into something big. But that is in our hands.
Enough with the motivational part, I think there can be another low level clan that can be founded initially. One means monopoly, 2 means competition, right? Other than that, well... Nothing that is not written by L_Master comes in my mind.
I spoilered your wall of text so people can see my post.
Thanks for the credit there to me and Sayle, but more importantly are things that follow. The people who have worked on the ISL's are extremely dedicated, and you seem to think there are fewer staff than actually exist. To be honest, ISL1 and ISL2 both independently had 10+ as staff, with 5-6 of them being entirely dedicated. Me and Sayle are just the people that are visible publicly. Granted I put in a lot of effort in retrospect, and Sayle puts in a lot of time, just saying don't sell the other guys short please
Honestly though, there are plenty of BW lovers out there willing to sponsor tournaments. I in fact haven't been able to personally keep up with them all, which might come as a surprise. Unfortunately, most want to be an independent sponsor and name tournaments after themselves, which is not a great thing for a communal starleague or large tournament. To be fair though, Eywa ran Gambit Cup season 1 nearly without flaw, and is investing a lot of time into future projects. More people like Eywa would be great.
Also, as far as the lack of casters is concerned... I've basically researched every BW caster and came to a very simple conclusion: "They all suck." I'm not talking about NukeTheStars and people like that, who respectfully declined to cast the first ISL, but the people who will work for free. I'd love to help build names, but Sayle and EleGant were really the only capable at the time. EleGant lost his internet connection, and well, the rest is history. As of right now, the only person I can personally enjoy as a caster is hacklebeast. He's very entertaining, and his lisp of the letter "s" literally makes me laugh out loud because it reminds me of Jeff Gallagher (radio personality). I wish he had more BW knowledge, then he'd be perfect. Not trying to rip anyone, but needed to bring some clarity to your post of that issue.
On September 30 2011 06:02 ArvickHero wrote: ahhhh hmmmm I guess I should start getting to work on some of those Protoss guides/builds I've been planning to write ..
Great! I like the ones you've put out on TL so far (the Neo-Bisu-Build one and the "How to react to scouting info in PvZ" one; been awhile though T.T)
On September 30 2011 10:48 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I cant really play bw atm either because of a shoulder injury but Id like to share my strategical knowledge in some way. In particular I should have plenty of free time coming up this weekend so id be up for spending some time doing whatever is needed/possible to help out. any suggestions?
Apart from coaching/workshops if you like to spend time with no people around you could do a strategic cast of interesting games. You know, like the ones Day[9] used to do. Explaining the different approaches to the MU and/or possible thought processes behind that. Possibly combined with some general advice of sorts
And get well soon ofc ~.~
that would be great but requires a decent computer afaik..?
Hmmm... kinda depends on how shitty your gear really is. I managed just fine to do repcast VoDs off of a 1.6 Ghz processor, a laptop shared graphics chip and 2 GB RAM
If there was a low level clan where I could practice against players like me I would enjoy that a lot! I'm pretty nooby at BW but really enjoy it a lot more than SC2 (I played SC2 before BW). It's hard to find people as bad as me on ICCup, as I say D-/E and then I face off against some terran who had an average of 200 APM >_<
On September 30 2011 06:02 ArvickHero wrote: ahhhh hmmmm I guess I should start getting to work on some of those Protoss guides/builds I've been planning to write ..
Great! I like the ones you've put out on TL so far (the Neo-Bisu-Build one and the "How to react to scouting info in PvZ" one; been awhile though T.T)
On September 30 2011 10:48 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I cant really play bw atm either because of a shoulder injury but Id like to share my strategical knowledge in some way. In particular I should have plenty of free time coming up this weekend so id be up for spending some time doing whatever is needed/possible to help out. any suggestions?
Apart from coaching/workshops if you like to spend time with no people around you could do a strategic cast of interesting games. You know, like the ones Day[9] used to do. Explaining the different approaches to the MU and/or possible thought processes behind that. Possibly combined with some general advice of sorts
And get well soon ofc ~.~
that would be great but requires a decent computer afaik..?
Hmmm... kinda depends on how shitty your gear really is. I managed just fine to do repcast VoDs off of a 1.6 Ghz processor, a laptop shared graphics chip and 2 GB RAM
i dont know how bad those specs are but ive been told my video card is the weak link in my system. you think it would b taxed less if i wasnt doing bw at the same time? This would mean I cant do any replays, which would blow, but its better than nothing
Even with all new guys going along with little brother, BW still has tournaments with nice prize pool and ~700 live viewers. What I mean is, $1500 prize pool, sayle being the only guy streaming and we still have ~700 live viewers. There would be a lot more if more initiative was taken by more people and not just Game/Sayle/a small bunch of other people.
Except for the streams, ISL has Starleague level organizational structure. Sayle is great, awesome, all that good jazz, but a single guy streaming and casting all of these with some broadcasts taking 13ish hours with no break means streaming needs help. I also feel that I need to congratulate Sayle here because of the 13 hour solo broadcast. I wish someone else also stepped up for that. Elegant did this for quite a while but I don't see him under ISL any more.
So, you guys must be wondering why I took a paragraph to talk about ISL, let me connect it to the topic and continue with my seemingly tryhard motivational great wall of text. With TL as a brand pulling out of BW completely, we still have an exceptionally good tourney which is organized by literally some guys.
Speaking of "some guys", that is officially what we are (no offense to any of us, but TL BW community, which is some forum goers that play and watch BW together in a forum despite that forum being TL makes us some guys in the eyes of someone who is looking from outside).
Also, "some guys" is the form of anything, any organizational structure, any company when it's just founded. What I mean is, BW may be dying in the eyes of some, but it is reincarnating in my eyes. So, what I mean is that this is not a "last hurrah". This is an opportunity. To start a tradition. Just like TSL. We may expand this and eventually turn this into something big. But that is in our hands.
Enough with the motivational part, I think there can be another low level clan that can be founded initially. One means monopoly, 2 means competition, right? Other than that, well... Nothing that is not written by L_Master comes in my mind.
I spoilered your wall of text so people can see my post.
Thanks for the credit there to me and Sayle, but more importantly are things that follow. The people who have worked on the ISL's are extremely dedicated, and you seem to think there are fewer staff than actually exist. To be honest, ISL1 and ISL2 both independently had 10+ as staff, with 5-6 of them being entirely dedicated. Me and Sayle are just the people that are visible publicly. Granted I put in a lot of effort in retrospect, and Sayle puts in a lot of time, just saying don't sell the other guys short please
Honestly though, there are plenty of BW lovers out there willing to sponsor tournaments. I in fact haven't been able to personally keep up with them all, which might come as a surprise. Unfortunately, most want to be an independent sponsor and name tournaments after themselves, which is not a great thing for a communal starleague or large tournament. To be fair though, Eywa ran Gambit Cup season 1 nearly without flaw, and is investing a lot of time into future projects. More people like Eywa would be great.
Also, as far as the lack of casters is concerned... I've basically researched every BW caster and came to a very simple conclusion: "They all suck." I'm not talking about NukeTheStars and people like that, who respectfully declined to cast the first ISL, but the people who will work for free. I'd love to help build names, but Sayle and EleGant were really the only capable at the time. EleGant lost his internet connection, and well, the rest is history. As of right now, the only person I can personally enjoy as a caster is hacklebeast. He's very entertaining, and his lisp of the letter "s" literally makes me laugh out loud because it reminds me of Jeff Gallagher (radio personality). I wish he had more BW knowledge, then he'd be perfect. Not trying to rip anyone, but needed to bring some clarity to your post of that issue.
Can't really say I disagree, but it doesn't hurt to have the option available AND if people are dedicated and work on it they can probably improve a significant. Having english casts of proleague/OSL/MSL available if someone wants them can't be a bad thing.
Even with all new guys going along with little brother, BW still has tournaments with nice prize pool and ~700 live viewers. What I mean is, $1500 prize pool, sayle being the only guy streaming and we still have ~700 live viewers. There would be a lot more if more initiative was taken by more people and not just Game/Sayle/a small bunch of other people.
Except for the streams, ISL has Starleague level organizational structure. Sayle is great, awesome, all that good jazz, but a single guy streaming and casting all of these with some broadcasts taking 13ish hours with no break means streaming needs help. I also feel that I need to congratulate Sayle here because of the 13 hour solo broadcast. I wish someone else also stepped up for that. Elegant did this for quite a while but I don't see him under ISL any more.
So, you guys must be wondering why I took a paragraph to talk about ISL, let me connect it to the topic and continue with my seemingly tryhard motivational great wall of text. With TL as a brand pulling out of BW completely, we still have an exceptionally good tourney which is organized by literally some guys.
Speaking of "some guys", that is officially what we are (no offense to any of us, but TL BW community, which is some forum goers that play and watch BW together in a forum despite that forum being TL makes us some guys in the eyes of someone who is looking from outside).
Also, "some guys" is the form of anything, any organizational structure, any company when it's just founded. What I mean is, BW may be dying in the eyes of some, but it is reincarnating in my eyes. So, what I mean is that this is not a "last hurrah". This is an opportunity. To start a tradition. Just like TSL. We may expand this and eventually turn this into something big. But that is in our hands.
Enough with the motivational part, I think there can be another low level clan that can be founded initially. One means monopoly, 2 means competition, right? Other than that, well... Nothing that is not written by L_Master comes in my mind.
I spoilered your wall of text so people can see my post.
Thanks for the credit there to me and Sayle, but more importantly are things that follow. The people who have worked on the ISL's are extremely dedicated, and you seem to think there are fewer staff than actually exist. To be honest, ISL1 and ISL2 both independently had 10+ as staff, with 5-6 of them being entirely dedicated. Me and Sayle are just the people that are visible publicly. Granted I put in a lot of effort in retrospect, and Sayle puts in a lot of time, just saying don't sell the other guys short please
Honestly though, there are plenty of BW lovers out there willing to sponsor tournaments. I in fact haven't been able to personally keep up with them all, which might come as a surprise. Unfortunately, most want to be an independent sponsor and name tournaments after themselves, which is not a great thing for a communal starleague or large tournament. To be fair though, Eywa ran Gambit Cup season 1 nearly without flaw, and is investing a lot of time into future projects. More people like Eywa would be great.
Also, as far as the lack of casters is concerned... I've basically researched every BW caster and came to a very simple conclusion: "They all suck." I'm not talking about NukeTheStars and people like that, who respectfully declined to cast the first ISL, but the people who will work for free. I'd love to help build names, but Sayle and EleGant were really the only capable at the time. EleGant lost his internet connection, and well, the rest is history. As of right now, the only person I can personally enjoy as a caster is hacklebeast. He's very entertaining, and his lisp of the letter "s" literally makes me laugh out loud because it reminds me of Jeff Gallagher (radio personality). I wish he had more BW knowledge, then he'd be perfect. Not trying to rip anyone, but needed to bring some clarity to your post of that issue.
Can't really say I disagree, but it doesn't hurt to have the option available AND if people are dedicated and work on it they can probably improve a significant. Having english casts of proleague/OSL/MSL available if someone wants them can't be a bad thing.
I'm under the impression in life that it's best to have things done right. The last thing I would, and I'm sure most can agree, ever watch is someone with no knowledge or source of entertainment casting the most highly skilled games of BW in existence. That's my feelings on it anyhow.
On September 30 2011 06:02 ArvickHero wrote: ahhhh hmmmm I guess I should start getting to work on some of those Protoss guides/builds I've been planning to write ..
Great! I like the ones you've put out on TL so far (the Neo-Bisu-Build one and the "How to react to scouting info in PvZ" one; been awhile though T.T)
On September 30 2011 10:48 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I cant really play bw atm either because of a shoulder injury but Id like to share my strategical knowledge in some way. In particular I should have plenty of free time coming up this weekend so id be up for spending some time doing whatever is needed/possible to help out. any suggestions?
Apart from coaching/workshops if you like to spend time with no people around you could do a strategic cast of interesting games. You know, like the ones Day[9] used to do. Explaining the different approaches to the MU and/or possible thought processes behind that. Possibly combined with some general advice of sorts
And get well soon ofc ~.~
that would be great but requires a decent computer afaik..?
Hmmm... kinda depends on how shitty your gear really is. I managed just fine to do repcast VoDs off of a 1.6 Ghz processor, a laptop shared graphics chip and 2 GB RAM
i dont know how bad those specs are but ive been told my video card is the weak link in my system. you think it would b taxed less if i wasnt doing bw at the same time? This would mean I cant do any replays, which would blow, but its better than nothing
Yea I don't know exactly how bad your situation is but if you were able to make some good protoss VOD's for that sub-project that would be unbelievably fantastic.
Have you tried using something like Fraps to record VOD's/FPVODs?
On September 30 2011 06:02 ArvickHero wrote: ahhhh hmmmm I guess I should start getting to work on some of those Protoss guides/builds I've been planning to write ..
Great! I like the ones you've put out on TL so far (the Neo-Bisu-Build one and the "How to react to scouting info in PvZ" one; been awhile though T.T)
On September 30 2011 10:48 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I cant really play bw atm either because of a shoulder injury but Id like to share my strategical knowledge in some way. In particular I should have plenty of free time coming up this weekend so id be up for spending some time doing whatever is needed/possible to help out. any suggestions?
Apart from coaching/workshops if you like to spend time with no people around you could do a strategic cast of interesting games. You know, like the ones Day[9] used to do. Explaining the different approaches to the MU and/or possible thought processes behind that. Possibly combined with some general advice of sorts
And get well soon ofc ~.~
that would be great but requires a decent computer afaik..?
Hmmm... kinda depends on how shitty your gear really is. I managed just fine to do repcast VoDs off of a 1.6 Ghz processor, a laptop shared graphics chip and 2 GB RAM
i dont know how bad those specs are but ive been told my video card is the weak link in my system. you think it would b taxed less if i wasnt doing bw at the same time? This would mean I cant do any replays, which would blow, but its better than nothing
Well, if you own a desktop and have a dedicated graphics card, it should be better than the one i used (pretty likely that its miles better ^^°); if you're using onboard, it should be almost the same. It runs camtasia + audacity + BW no problem. It even runs camtasia + audacity + live games on iCCup
Even with all new guys going along with little brother, BW still has tournaments with nice prize pool and ~700 live viewers. What I mean is, $1500 prize pool, sayle being the only guy streaming and we still have ~700 live viewers. There would be a lot more if more initiative was taken by more people and not just Game/Sayle/a small bunch of other people.
Except for the streams, ISL has Starleague level organizational structure. Sayle is great, awesome, all that good jazz, but a single guy streaming and casting all of these with some broadcasts taking 13ish hours with no break means streaming needs help. I also feel that I need to congratulate Sayle here because of the 13 hour solo broadcast. I wish someone else also stepped up for that. Elegant did this for quite a while but I don't see him under ISL any more.
So, you guys must be wondering why I took a paragraph to talk about ISL, let me connect it to the topic and continue with my seemingly tryhard motivational great wall of text. With TL as a brand pulling out of BW completely, we still have an exceptionally good tourney which is organized by literally some guys.
Speaking of "some guys", that is officially what we are (no offense to any of us, but TL BW community, which is some forum goers that play and watch BW together in a forum despite that forum being TL makes us some guys in the eyes of someone who is looking from outside).
Also, "some guys" is the form of anything, any organizational structure, any company when it's just founded. What I mean is, BW may be dying in the eyes of some, but it is reincarnating in my eyes. So, what I mean is that this is not a "last hurrah". This is an opportunity. To start a tradition. Just like TSL. We may expand this and eventually turn this into something big. But that is in our hands.
Enough with the motivational part, I think there can be another low level clan that can be founded initially. One means monopoly, 2 means competition, right? Other than that, well... Nothing that is not written by L_Master comes in my mind.
I spoilered your wall of text so people can see my post.
Thanks for the credit there to me and Sayle, but more importantly are things that follow. The people who have worked on the ISL's are extremely dedicated, and you seem to think there are fewer staff than actually exist. To be honest, ISL1 and ISL2 both independently had 10+ as staff, with 5-6 of them being entirely dedicated. Me and Sayle are just the people that are visible publicly. Granted I put in a lot of effort in retrospect, and Sayle puts in a lot of time, just saying don't sell the other guys short please
Honestly though, there are plenty of BW lovers out there willing to sponsor tournaments. I in fact haven't been able to personally keep up with them all, which might come as a surprise. Unfortunately, most want to be an independent sponsor and name tournaments after themselves, which is not a great thing for a communal starleague or large tournament. To be fair though, Eywa ran Gambit Cup season 1 nearly without flaw, and is investing a lot of time into future projects. More people like Eywa would be great.
Also, as far as the lack of casters is concerned... I've basically researched every BW caster and came to a very simple conclusion: "They all suck." I'm not talking about NukeTheStars and people like that, who respectfully declined to cast the first ISL, but the people who will work for free. I'd love to help build names, but Sayle and EleGant were really the only capable at the time. EleGant lost his internet connection, and well, the rest is history. As of right now, the only person I can personally enjoy as a caster is hacklebeast. He's very entertaining, and his lisp of the letter "s" literally makes me laugh out loud because it reminds me of Jeff Gallagher (radio personality). I wish he had more BW knowledge, then he'd be perfect. Not trying to rip anyone, but needed to bring some clarity to your post of that issue.
Can't really say I disagree, but it doesn't hurt to have the option available AND if people are dedicated and work on it they can probably improve a significant. Having english casts of proleague/OSL/MSL available if someone wants them can't be a bad thing.
I'm under the impression in life that it's best to have things done right. The last thing I would, and I'm sure most can agree, ever watch is someone with no knowledge or source of entertainment casting the most highly skilled games of BW in existence. That's my feelings on it anyhow.
While I personally agree wholeheartdely, I wonder how the newer crowd with no BW background that is used to having everything in english and explained would react being told to just watch the KR commentators.
My followup question would be where do/how do new casters wanting to improve casting and eventually provide a solid service get there start? Maybe it just starts with people doing casts of games on youtube and if enough people start saying "hey this guy is doing a good job" then we have him step it up and cast on a regular basis.
On September 30 2011 15:49 L_Master wrote: Maybe it just starts with people doing casts of games on youtube and if enough people start saying "hey this guy is doing a good job" then we have him step it up and cast on a regular basis.
That's a great idea imho and would also solve some of the time constraints/issues potential casters might have
On September 30 2011 06:02 ArvickHero wrote: ahhhh hmmmm I guess I should start getting to work on some of those Protoss guides/builds I've been planning to write ..
Great! I like the ones you've put out on TL so far (the Neo-Bisu-Build one and the "How to react to scouting info in PvZ" one; been awhile though T.T)
On September 30 2011 10:48 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I cant really play bw atm either because of a shoulder injury but Id like to share my strategical knowledge in some way. In particular I should have plenty of free time coming up this weekend so id be up for spending some time doing whatever is needed/possible to help out. any suggestions?
Apart from coaching/workshops if you like to spend time with no people around you could do a strategic cast of interesting games. You know, like the ones Day[9] used to do. Explaining the different approaches to the MU and/or possible thought processes behind that. Possibly combined with some general advice of sorts
And get well soon ofc ~.~
that would be great but requires a decent computer afaik..?
Hmmm... kinda depends on how shitty your gear really is. I managed just fine to do repcast VoDs off of a 1.6 Ghz processor, a laptop shared graphics chip and 2 GB RAM
i dont know how bad those specs are but ive been told my video card is the weak link in my system. you think it would b taxed less if i wasnt doing bw at the same time? This would mean I cant do any replays, which would blow, but its better than nothing
Well, if you own a desktop and have a dedicated graphics card, it should be better than the one i used (pretty likely that its miles better ^^°); if you're using onboard, it should be almost the same. It runs camtasia + audacity + BW no problem. It even runs camtasia + audacity + live games on iCCup
i dont know what half of these things are, but it sounds promising. would u mind helping me set something up over the weekend? I can compensate u in the form of strategical advice if it works for u lol
also @ the person who said "newb tuesdays" or w/e, i wouldnt mind doing something liek taht if i could possibly get some kind of set up, we shall see.
OH my, I like this idea so much... There were some good casters that moktira had linked on his profiles (ranshinda and XIJABERWALKIX; i could never remember his id so i never got to watching his videos~ )... but now i just went there and it says they're also retired.... but
seems like a new, up and coming caster... Everyone support him!!!!
On September 29 2011 16:40 AroundTweed wrote: As one of the last surviving members of the old sGs I'd love to see some new faces, the clan is pretty barren right now. And the whole idea of getting more of the foreign community just playing BW on a regular basis really appeals to me, and as a (barely) D player I'd like to help - maybe providing some insight into how to make the game more accessible for players starting out.
is sGs on Iccup? I'd like to join, but i'm busy most of the time, only on duringt eh weekends... does sGs like require a lot of commitment? Cause i would like friends that I can consistently play even if for a little bit...
On September 30 2011 15:18 Game wrote: Unfortunately, most want to be an independent sponsor and name tournaments after themselves, which is not a great thing for a communal starleague or large tournament.
On September 30 2011 15:18 Game wrote: Unfortunately, most want to be an independent sponsor and name tournaments after themselves, which is not a great thing for a communal starleague or large tournament.
Ironically not hitting you there. Can't really go into details, but the (3) people I'm referring to were just looking for some type of e-glory. I'm typically fine with that if they're not overbearing, but that wasn't the case.
On September 30 2011 15:18 Game wrote: Unfortunately, most want to be an independent sponsor and name tournaments after themselves, which is not a great thing for a communal starleague or large tournament.
Ironically not hitting you there. Can't really go into details, but the (3) people I'm referring to were just looking for some type of e-glory. I'm typically fine with that if they're not overbearing, but that wasn't the case.
Considering how egotistical and overbearing I am, I shudder to think at the kind of people you turn away.
Is there a mod or something to fix SC:BW on my computer? The resolutions and colors are all messed up we it loads up. Diablo had windowed mode by inserting -w into properties, but I don't think BW has it.
On September 30 2011 16:50 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Is there a mod or something to fix SC:BW on my computer? The resolutions and colors are all messed up we it loads up. Diablo had windowed mode by inserting -w into properties, but I don't think BW has it.
There are different third party launchers out for BW (Chaoslauncher, iCCup Launcher, Mini Launcher) that enable windowed mode. Other than that most of the times colors are only messed in menu and are totally fine ingame, so you could try that out before trying windowed
This is what fixed the colors in my broodwar: (Note: I'm using Windows 7 32bit) Download and install the iCCup launcher Go into your starcraft install directory and right click starcraft.exe > properties > compatibility > check everything except "compatibility mode" (so, 256 colors/640x480 res/disable vis themes/disable desktop comp/disable display scaling/run as admin should ALL be CHECKED) Now, open up the iCCup launcher, but don't start sc yet! before you do this, right click desktop and just hit "Screen Resolution" > KEEP THIS WINDOW OPEN! Start starcraft! Colors should be fine now!
I've tried to get a couple people to watch BW games and these are the issues that come up the most:
1) "the graphics suck"
2) "I can't understand what's going on because it's all in korean"
3) "I can't enjoy it because the game is outdated and the players have to fight the game to win"
You can't really do anything about 1 but I think 2 and 3 can be addressed. 3 in particular seems stupid to me since none of the people I talked to actually play the game and you would never know just by watching pros play. Clearly there are people out there promoting the idea that BW is outdated and bad.
Also I don't want to criticize but I think it's really hurting that pretty much all of the high-profile foreign community has adopted an "I don't publicly care about BW anymore" stance. I know both Day[9] and Moletrap have been spotted in OSL crowds but you would never know they still cared just from listening to them. There are obvious reasons why this is happening but I can't help but feel it's kind of sad that Tasteless can give shoutouts to EVO but completely ignores the BW scene.
On September 30 2011 18:02 BrosephBrostar wrote: I've tried to get a couple people to watch BW games and these are the issues that come up the most:
1) "the graphics suck"
2) "I can't understand what's going on because it's all in korean"
3) "I can't enjoy it because the game is outdated and the players have to fight the game to win"
You can't really do anything about 1 but I think 2 and 3 can be addressed. 3 in particular seems stupid to me since none of the people I talked to actually play the game and you would never know just by watching pros play. Clearly there are people out there promoting the idea that BW is outdated and bad.
The graphics just take getting used to. They're clear and mostly clean.
Also I don't want to criticize but I think it's really hurting that pretty much all of the high-profile foreign community has adopted an "I don't publicly care about BW anymore" stance. I know both Day[9] and Moletrap have been spotted in OSL crowds but you would never know they still cared just from listening to them. There are obvious reasons why this is happening but I can't help but feel it's kind of sad that Tasteless can give shoutouts to EVO but completely ignores the BW scene.
There was half a State of the Game dedicated to BW, due to popular demand, though. And Nony got in trouble for tweeting that he was excited to watch the OSL finals because he'd actually get to see professionals. So it's not completely gone.
--------
I think part of the issue is that BW fans focus on pure mechanics sometimes give the impression that BW is about mindlessly executing a strategy some Korean figured out 4 years ago against another guy doing same. Whenever someone pops in going "I'm an SC2 fan and I want to try BW", they get told:
A.) BW is a man's game, because of all the APM you need. B.) Go to Liquipedia and copy a build.
One of the things about SC2 fans is that we like that the game is new and kind of not so good maybe and everyone's bad, because we can find our own styles, discover things no one knew before, and kind of make our own mark on the scene. And I don't think there's any reason that a newbie BW player can't go "I like wraiths! I'm going to incorporate a non-optimal amount in my TvT just because they're neat!" and practice and practice and make it work to a respectable level through polish alone. The community tends to discourage that kind of thing, because 2port wraith TvT is a bit silly and not that good, even if you have good mechanics and it's a well timed +1 air attack with tanks while expanding and whatever. You're not going to win an OSL with that.
But I think, most people are okay with that. And they just kind of want to do what they like, even if it means they'll never get out of the C range. That's a perfectly normal way to want to play a game. There's not a lot of resources for someone who wants to get as far as they can doing their own thing, instead of getting way farther doing Flash's thing. And I think a more dynamic, generally sloppier ICCUP isn't necessarily a bad thing, and it's an ICCUP that's a bit more fun for a lot of people.
tl;dr: You have to want to play the game, and only from there can you want to get good at it.
We are an alliance of 6 low-level/mid-level clans and we hold clanwars every week between us. We also hold different type of tournament each 3-4 months (the price money is very small though). Can the project help us find new clans to clanwar with during the weekend ? Or foreign players to play in our tournament ?
well i've resisted your trolling in this thread up to this point, but i'm bored, getting drunk, and your ignorance really has started to show through.
I think part of the issue is that BW fans focus on pure mechanics sometimes give the impression that BW is about mindlessly executing a strategy some Korean figured out 4 years ago against another guy doing same.
Where the fuck did you get this bullshit from? really? I don't know anyone who says that. Did you catch the most recent OSL finals? The whole thing was decided by creative strategies clashing (12 scv 2 fac? 2 shuttle reaver bulldog, 2 base carrier?) and the ability of jangbi and fantasy to micro against each other and maintain their focus to get the win. If we thought the game was just about mindlessly executing strategies we wouldn't watch.
Whenever someone pops in going "I'm an SC2 fan and I want to try BW", they get told:
A.) BW is a man's game, because of all the APM you need. B.) Go to Liquipedia and copy a build.
I dont hear A much, so i'll take you on your word. if that gets said, its usually in a joking friendly way, like THIS"LL PUT HAIR ON YOUR CHIN SONNY BOY, kinda thing. it's never meant to turn someone off the game, if it is said at all.
as for your second point, impeaching the usefulness of liquipedia, which taught me and HEAPS of other people how to play this game, and was created and maintained by this fantastic community is borderline treason in my books. Liquipedia has fantastic guides about how to play the matchups in general and good builds to get started on. Its a great resource and anyone who gets directed there has been done a favour.
One of the things about SC2 fans is that we like that the game is new and kind of not so good maybe and everyone's bad, because we can find our own styles, discover things no one knew before, and kind of make our own mark on the scene. And I don't think there's any reason that a newbie BW player can't go "I like wraiths! I'm going to incorporate a non-optimal amount in my TvT just because they're neat!" and practice and practice and make it work to a respectable level through polish alone. The community tends to discourage that kind of thing, because 2port wraith TvT is a bit silly and not that good, even if you have good mechanics and it's a well timed +1 air attack with tanks while expanding and whatever. You're not going to win an OSL with that.
.........you like something cuz its bad. fine. i dont care. What i do have issue with is this notion that new players get discouraged from creativity. Literally everytime i've been asked for a tvt build by a newbie terran i recommend 2 port. Because its heaps of fun to watch. because i enjoy watching people be creative and learn frustrating strategies ^_^
As for "not winning an osl with that" have you actually watched alot of OSL games? Sure i dont think i've seen +1 air attack wraiths tvt but some of the most epic OSL games have been created through silly builds. Fuck look at the most recent OSL game 5. There was a corsair fighting a fucking wraith. in pvt.......COME ON MAN STOP BEING BLIND. fuck.
and i'm pretty sure i haven't seen anyone encouraged to not do something "because they wont win an osl with that". the foreign broodwar community accepts that we wont be going to korea to win OSL's at this point. We play for fun. because we enjoy the game. and we encourage new people to enjoy the game too. Often when people query me about whether they should play BW or switch to sc2 i simply say, play what you enjoy. because that is whats gaming is all about.\
But I think, most people are okay with that. And they just kind of want to do what they like, even if it means they'll never get out of the C range. That's a perfectly normal way to want to play a game. There's not a lot of resources for someone who wants to get as far as they can doing their own thing, instead of getting way farther doing Flash's thing. And I think a more dynamic, generally sloppier ICCUP isn't necessarily a bad thing, and it's an ICCUP that's a bit more fun for a lot of people.
from reading this i'm pretty sure you've never watched high ranked iccup people play. Maybe you should. because the B ranks tend to do more silly shit than the c range. in fact what i find is D rank = sillyness, C rank = relatively standard (flash style as you call it) and watching b ranks is where the sillyness comes back in.
to sum up, i think you're taking broad stereotypes, making huge assumptions and in doing so having a go at the BW community as a whole, and i dont fucking like it.
Where the fuck did you get this bullshit from? really? I don't know anyone who says that. Did you catch the most recent OSL finals? The whole thing was decided by creative strategies clashing (12 scv 2 fac? 2 shuttle reaver bulldog, 2 base carrier?) and the ability of jangbi and fantasy to micro against each other and maintain their focus to get the win. If we thought the game was just about mindlessly executing strategies we wouldn't watch.
Obviously, it's not a true impression. If BW actually was a boring mindless game, no one would play it. I'm just saying people talk about mechanics too much and fun not enough.
I dont hear A much, so i'll take you on your word. if that gets said, its usually in a joking friendly way, like THIS"LL PUT HAIR ON YOUR CHIN SONNY BOY, kinda thing. it's never meant to turn someone off the game, if it is said at all.
It's something that comes up in SC2 vs BW threads. Every single "I play SC2 and want to try BW!" turns into an SC2 vs BW thread (really, every single thread will if it lasts long enough).
as for your second point, impeaching the usefulness of liquipedia, which taught me and HEAPS of other people how to play this game, and was created and maintained by this fantastic community is borderline treason in my books. Liquipedia has fantastic guides about how to play the matchups in general and good builds to get started on. Its a great resource and anyone who gets directed there has been done a favour.
No argument. I actually have Liquipedia open when I play BW. Most people in the BW section want to play that way, and it's fantastic. When you want to be really good at BW, it's the best resource bar none. But I feel you have to like playing BW before you want to get good at it. It's a great resource and an opening to competitive 1v1 BW, but maybe not such a great intro to BW as a whole. It's written on the assumption you already like BW.
Liquipedia is for when you want something with more depth than 2v2v2v2 BGH or you've already decided to try and get good at BW.
.........you like something cuz its bad. fine. i dont care. What i do have issue with is this notion that new players get discouraged from creativity. Literally everytime i've been asked for a tvt build by a newbie terran i recommend 2 port. Because its heaps of fun to watch. because i enjoy watching people be creative and learn frustrating strategies ^_^
Good!
As for "not winning an osl with that" have you actually watched alot of OSL games? Sure i dont think i've seen +1 air attack wraiths tvt but some of the most epic OSL games have been created through silly builds. Fuck look at the most recent OSL game 5. There was a corsair fighting a fucking wraith. in pvt.......COME ON MAN STOP BEING BLIND. fuck.
The JangBi/Fantasy OSL finals are a great advertisement for BW for that reason. It's exactly the kind of thing I want BW fans to mention more.
The basic gist of my argument is thus: Most people will want to play BW for fun, and a chunk of those people will want to play more competitively. I don't think many people will go from Minecraft to D on ICCUP, but Minecraft to BGH to D on ICCUP is a more common path.
and i'm pretty sure i haven't seen anyone encouraged to not do something "because they wont win an osl with that". the foreign broodwar community accepts that we wont be going to korea to win OSL's at this point. We play for fun. because we enjoy the game. and we encourage new people to enjoy the game too. Often when people query me about whether they should play BW or switch to sc2 i simply say, play what you enjoy. because that is whats gaming is all about.
BW needs more people like you, then.
from reading this i'm pretty sure you've never watched high ranked iccup people play. Maybe you should. because the B ranks tend to do more silly shit than the c range. in fact what i find is D rank = sillyness, C rank = relatively standard (flash style as you call it) and watching b ranks is where the sillyness comes back in.
Then show it! I'm not saying BW is a game of memorization, because that's obviously stupid. I'm saying not enough people say that it isn't. Most people just jump into SC2 vs BW mode and start talking about APM and Mechanics and how the skill ceiling is higher etc etc etc., and not enough people are saying that's it's fucking fun. And it is! "It's immaculately subtle" won't get casuals, and you need casuals to get the hardcore guys.
to sum up, i think you're taking broad stereotypes, making huge assumptions and in doing so having a go at the BW community as a whole, and i dont fucking like it.
My only beef with the BW community was that a lot of them were content to let BW die without a fight, and that's starting to change because of threads like this, which makes me happy.
Even with all new guys going along with little brother, BW still has tournaments with nice prize pool and ~700 live viewers. What I mean is, $1500 prize pool, sayle being the only guy streaming and we still have ~700 live viewers. There would be a lot more if more initiative was taken by more people and not just Game/Sayle/a small bunch of other people.
Except for the streams, ISL has Starleague level organizational structure. Sayle is great, awesome, all that good jazz, but a single guy streaming and casting all of these with some broadcasts taking 13ish hours with no break means streaming needs help. I also feel that I need to congratulate Sayle here because of the 13 hour solo broadcast. I wish someone else also stepped up for that. Elegant did this for quite a while but I don't see him under ISL any more.
So, you guys must be wondering why I took a paragraph to talk about ISL, let me connect it to the topic and continue with my seemingly tryhard motivational great wall of text. With TL as a brand pulling out of BW completely, we still have an exceptionally good tourney which is organized by literally some guys.
Speaking of "some guys", that is officially what we are (no offense to any of us, but TL BW community, which is some forum goers that play and watch BW together in a forum despite that forum being TL makes us some guys in the eyes of someone who is looking from outside).
Also, "some guys" is the form of anything, any organizational structure, any company when it's just founded. What I mean is, BW may be dying in the eyes of some, but it is reincarnating in my eyes. So, what I mean is that this is not a "last hurrah". This is an opportunity. To start a tradition. Just like TSL. We may expand this and eventually turn this into something big. But that is in our hands.
Enough with the motivational part, I think there can be another low level clan that can be founded initially. One means monopoly, 2 means competition, right? Other than that, well... Nothing that is not written by L_Master comes in my mind.
I spoilered your wall of text so people can see my post.
Thanks for the credit there to me and Sayle, but more importantly are things that follow. The people who have worked on the ISL's are extremely dedicated, and you seem to think there are fewer staff than actually exist. To be honest, ISL1 and ISL2 both independently had 10+ as staff, with 5-6 of them being entirely dedicated. Me and Sayle are just the people that are visible publicly. Granted I put in a lot of effort in retrospect, and Sayle puts in a lot of time, just saying don't sell the other guys short please
Honestly though, there are plenty of BW lovers out there willing to sponsor tournaments. I in fact haven't been able to personally keep up with them all, which might come as a surprise. Unfortunately, most want to be an independent sponsor and name tournaments after themselves, which is not a great thing for a communal starleague or large tournament. To be fair though, Eywa ran Gambit Cup season 1 nearly without flaw, and is investing a lot of time into future projects. More people like Eywa would be great.
Also, as far as the lack of casters is concerned... I've basically researched every BW caster and came to a very simple conclusion: "They all suck." I'm not talking about NukeTheStars and people like that, who respectfully declined to cast the first ISL, but the people who will work for free. I'd love to help build names, but Sayle and EleGant were really the only capable at the time. EleGant lost his internet connection, and well, the rest is history. As of right now, the only person I can personally enjoy as a caster is hacklebeast. He's very entertaining, and his lisp of the letter "s" literally makes me laugh out loud because it reminds me of Jeff Gallagher (radio personality). I wish he had more BW knowledge, then he'd be perfect. Not trying to rip anyone, but needed to bring some clarity to your post of that issue.
Hey, don't get me wrong, I'm not selling any single person from the ISL2 team short . Most of the 10+ people team in ISL1 was CATs each of who devoted and still devotes a fuckton of effort and I'm sure something similar applies to ISL2 as well. What I meant by "some guys" is exactly that. A team of people devoting fuckton of effort all day every day about what they're trying to accomplish.
And I also didn't know about Elegant's situation (sorry elegant if I was harsh about it).
But I feel you have to like playing BW before you want to get good at it.
Like most things, my friend doesn't practice playing the violin everyday because he hates it. I feel like you have to like a lot of things before you try to get good at it. Isn't that the point? because you like it? and want to get better?
Liquipedia is for when you want something with more depth than 2v2v2v2 BGH or you've already decided to try and get good at BW.
Not always the case, my best friend uses it when ever he decides to play BW with his FPS friends, they're all casual and none of them are trying to get good at BW. It's a great resource for both everyone and every level (okay maybe not progamer level).
Then show it! I'm not saying BW is a game of memorization, because that's obviously stupid. I'm saying not enough people say that it isn't. Most people just jump into SC2 vs BW mode and start talking about APM and Mechanics and how the skill ceiling is higher etc etc etc., and not enough people are saying that's it's fucking fun. And it is! "It's immaculately subtle" won't get casuals, and you need casuals to get the hardcore guys.
Possibly because 'fucking fun' is a very subjective term. So people talk about liking the higher skill ceiling/apm/mechanics/whatever else they might have said.
Honestly high level management of micro/macro/unit control and able to generate the appropriate strategy on the fly is the fundamental essence of broodwar.
I don't think I will ever get any goosebump looking at sc2 knowing that these guys have it easy and the bw pro gamers in order to produce that kind of awe inspiring and jaw dropping games have gone through what seems to us casual as a nightmare seems to be like an easy thing to them .
Human spirit won over the lousy interface and that to me is the reason why broodwar is great . This is my opinion as hyde mention above it's pretty subjective but to my standards broodwar games needs to have all these essential things to make it interesting .
On October 01 2011 00:24 Sawamura wrote: I don't think I will ever get any goosebump looking at sc2 knowing that these guys have it easy and the bw pro gamers in order to produce that kind of awe inspiring and jaw dropping games have gone through what seems to us casual as a nightmare seems to be like an easy thing to them .
Human spirit won over the lousy interface and that to me is the reason why broodwar is great . This is my opinion as hyde mentiona above it's pretty subjective but to my standards broodwar games needs to have all these essential things to make it interesting .
This is exactly what I'm talking about. If someone who didn't know anything about BW read this, the take-away would be "Oh, it's like SC2 but more impressive because the interface is more annoying". That's not a particularly good sell for playing it. Saying that BW is impressive is all well and good, but we need to be saying it's fun. and you didn't.
Brood War is, in the end, a video game. People play games to have fun, not to be impressive. Talk about fun. If that's hard to quantify, post pimpest play videos because they tend to do a good job of making the game look fun.
On October 01 2011 00:24 Sawamura wrote: I don't think I will ever get any goosebump looking at sc2 knowing that these guys have it easy and the bw pro gamers in order to produce that kind of awe inspiring and jaw dropping games have gone through what seems to us casual as a nightmare seems to be like an easy thing to them .
Human spirit won over the lousy interface and that to me is the reason why broodwar is great . This is my opinion as hyde mentiona above it's pretty subjective but to my standards broodwar games needs to have all these essential things to make it interesting .
This is exactly what I'm talking about. If someone who didn't know anything about BW read this, the take-away would be "Oh, it's like SC2 but more impressive because the interface is more annoying". That's not a particularly good sell for playing it. Saying that BW is impressive is all well and good, but we need to be saying it's fun. and you didn't.
Brood War is, in the end, a video game. People play games to have fun, not to be impressive. Talk about fun. If that's hard to quantify, post pimpest play videos because they tend to do a good job of making the game look fun.
To those of us who have played bw on iccup it has never been FUN on laddering , no one's going to carry your hand and give you the baby step . Everyone went through a period of getting smashed and at some times I felt I wanted to quit . But I know that if I am able to hold on and wait patiently and practice more I can win games .
Lots of bw members are really helpfull in giving tips and what you should improve in the strategy forum . I can say that my experience of bw the fun only kick in when I was able to play at my highest level taking down D+ ,C- players and that was fun .However to treat every newbies with a red carpet saying and holding their hand along the ropes .It's impossible if you want to improve in broodwar you have to spend time and yes it's a video game that require lots of dedication to be good .
No I don't believe we should sugar coat the experience to newbies and say "hey this is fun " ain't happening . They got to learn the ropes by them selves and we are willing to point out their mistakes but they can't hope to get all the special treatment they have gotten in sc2 . Automatic match making and etc.
There is no shortcut to winning a game in broodwar , you are going to have one hell of a time struggling to survive and coming with what ever strategy to get the advantage back to you .If fun is really what you want to establish . I think the BGH is really quite active on iccup . However , I have always taken esports seriously be it cs 1.6 , source and broodwar . There's no such thing as fun until I win the game .
I would totally do this, but i would have to buy another computer with an xp or vista OS to start playing BW again. Currently my Asus laptop crashes every fucking time when i play for like 30 mins. Screen freezes and shit :[
On October 01 2011 00:24 Sawamura wrote: I don't think I will ever get any goosebump looking at sc2 knowing that these guys have it easy and the bw pro gamers in order to produce that kind of awe inspiring and jaw dropping games have gone through what seems to us casual as a nightmare seems to be like an easy thing to them .
Human spirit won over the lousy interface and that to me is the reason why broodwar is great . This is my opinion as hyde mentiona above it's pretty subjective but to my standards broodwar games needs to have all these essential things to make it interesting .
This is exactly what I'm talking about. If someone who didn't know anything about BW read this, the take-away would be "Oh, it's like SC2 but more impressive because the interface is more annoying". That's not a particularly good sell for playing it. Saying that BW is impressive is all well and good, but we need to be saying it's fun. and you didn't.
Brood War is, in the end, a video game. People play games to have fun, not to be impressive. Talk about fun. If that's hard to quantify, post pimpest play videos because they tend to do a good job of making the game look fun.
To those of us who have played bw on iccup it has never been FUN on laddering
Well, you're just not doing it right. I just played a BW game at 54 APM on goddamn Lost Temple with no real plan except liquipedia open to 2 gate range expand (which I royally fucked up) and I had hella fun.
no one's going to carry your hand and give you the baby step . Everyone went through a period of getting smashed and at some times I felt I wanted to quit . But I know that if I am able to hold on and wait patiently and practice more I can win games .
I had that period too. I bought a mouse and everything. And if you think I'm bad at BW now, you should've seen me when I was playing 2-3 games a day, trying to improve, in the ICCUP Training Program. Am I gonna get into D+ this way? Probably not. But I don't really care, and neither do a lot of people I'm a casual BW fan. We exist.
Lots of bw members are really helpfull in giving tips and what you should improve in the strategy forum.
Well yeah, if you're a nerd
But why should I have to spend hours and hours of boring shit just to get to have even a tiny bit of fun? Why does Brood War have to be Final Fantasy XIII? Not a lot of people want to play that way. And you do. And that's totally fine. There's absolutely nothing wrong with approaching BW the way you do.
I just think it's a harder sell that it has to be. Most people usually need to be a guy like me before he can be a guy like you. And some guys like me have no interest in getting to C, and that's okay. And you want to get good at the game. And that's also okay. There's more than one way to enjoy Brood War.
It's impossible if you want to improve in broodwar you have to spend time and yes it's a video game that require lots of dedication to be good.
Here's the thing, though. I have a full time job. I have other interests. I watch anime, listen to music, and, yes, play and watch SC2. I don't have the time to get to D+ in BW or Diamond in SC2. And I don't expect to do either in the near future. But I enjoy both games regardless. I'm not unusal in that respect. Not everyone is hardcore.
No I don't believe we should sugar coat the experience to newbies and say "hey this is fun " ain't happening .
"Hey, wanna play this old game?" "Is it fun?" "Nope!"
Do you want BW to die?
[qupte]They got to learn the ropes by them selves and we are willing to point out their mistakes but they can't hope to get all the special treatment they have gotten in sc2 . Automatic match making and etc.[/quote]
....Really? All the ways SC2 players have it easy, and you went with the ability to get a good game going without getting smurfed? The one and only universally popular change? Not automine? Not smart-cast? Matchmaking. Okay.
Also, I know what my mistakes in the replay I linked are. I floated a bazillion dollars, left my production facilities idle, and got supply blocked at every increment of 8. I'm sure I made tons of other errors, but I don't think any of them even matter compared to not building shit. If I wanted to improve, I'd take a build from Liquipedia, load up a 1v1 against the computer, and just practice the opening 30 times a day for a week until I could execute it flawlessly, and then go back to the ladder. The ICCUP training program would tell me I needed more zealots against that many tanks, but what I really needed were another few gateways and not to get supply blocked.
And, with practice, I could fix all of these things. I just kind of don't want to. I have other shit to do. And if that means I'm in D forever watching gosu players from afar, then I guess I'm forever D. But it doesn't matter, none of it matters, because I am having fun.
There is no shortcut to winning a game in broodwar , you are going to have one hell of a time struggling to survive and coming with what ever strategy to get the advantage back to you .If fun is really what you want to establish . I think the BGH is really quite active on iccup . However , I have always taken esports seriously be it cs 1.6 , source and broodwar . There's no such thing as fun until I win the game .
And there's nothing wrong with people like you.
But you're severely over-represented in the BW community, because it's the hardcore who stuck with it this long. Most people aren't hardcore. Most are casual. Some casuals fall in love and become hardcore. Most don't. Nature of the beast. If we want to grow BW, we have to appeal to a casual base of players, who'll create a feedback loop by devaluing the ICCUP ranks and making it easier to feel like you're not playing a game of Get Smashed in the Face by Koreans, but are instead playing a game you enjoy.
I speak as an avid starcraft 2 fan and an occasional brood war watcher. The big turn off for me as a noob is the korean commentating because i dont understand a thing going on. Also, when i play broodwar, its really really difficult and a huge turnoff for me when i can just play sc2 and have a much easier time. So thats my feedback. I thnk people commentating pro games in english would be really good. I wish you guys luck!
I have a feeling that right before Blizz released SC2, there was the golden age of BW with a lot of players on ICCup and BW being commentated by english commentators live and reccorded (who remember PL Final English Live coverage?). Those players are mostly D to C. The thing is that IF Blizz released the game just a bit later, those players would get to C to B making Iccup much more competitive. Right now we need to embrace EVERY member that joins in to BW, everyone is precious. That's how we preserve BW.
No I don't believe we should sugar coat the experience to newbies and say "hey this is fun " ain't happening .
Wtf are you talking about? BW is about as fun as it gets.
There has never been a stage in my BW career where BW has not been fun for me. It was fun when I was a 20 APM noob that thought 1 base forge -> photon cannons -> carrier off in base was a great strat. It was fun when I was a D- noob that couldn't macro at all and went 2-89 in my first season, the two wins being DT PvP wins where the other dude had no observers. It's still fun now at D+.
Anyway, enough of the off topic stuff. This is a thread for discussing ideas and suggestions we can use to make the BW community and infrastructure better.
Quit with the discussions of sc2/bw, "funness" of BW, etc. This isn't the thread for that.
One idea I had was to run a tournament for SC2 people who have never even played BW before. Sounds silly, but I think it could be a lot of fun for players and spectators alike.
I think the most important thing is to make trying BW out more accessible - right now people maybe make a thread, get told that Iccup is the best place to find games, and probably most of them just get smashed and give up. My (probably suboptimal or inadequate) suggestions for fixing this would be to make a list of veteran players (not necessarily ballers - probably anyone at least D+ can do it) who are willing to help newer players get started. The point being that when newer players log into Iccup there would be at least one of the people on the list online. You could even schedule certain times of day when newer players and veterans would agree to meet so that the players would have people to play against at their level and a veteran to help them out - low level clans could accomplish this too, I guess.
On October 01 2011 00:24 Sawamura wrote: I don't think I will ever get any goosebump looking at sc2 knowing that these guys have it easy and the bw pro gamers in order to produce that kind of awe inspiring and jaw dropping games have gone through what seems to us casual as a nightmare seems to be like an easy thing to them .
Human spirit won over the lousy interface and that to me is the reason why broodwar is great . This is my opinion as hyde mentiona above it's pretty subjective but to my standards broodwar games needs to have all these essential things to make it interesting .
This is exactly what I'm talking about. If someone who didn't know anything about BW read this, the take-away would be "Oh, it's like SC2 but more impressive because the interface is more annoying". That's not a particularly good sell for playing it. Saying that BW is impressive is all well and good, but we need to be saying it's fun. and you didn't.
Brood War is, in the end, a video game. People play games to have fun, not to be impressive. Talk about fun. If that's hard to quantify, post pimpest play videos because they tend to do a good job of making the game look fun.
To those of us who have played bw on iccup it has never been FUN on laddering
Well, you're just not doing it right. I just played a BW game at 54 APM on goddamn Lost Temple with no real plan except liquipedia open to 2 gate range expand (which I royally fucked up) and I had hella fun.
no one's going to carry your hand and give you the baby step . Everyone went through a period of getting smashed and at some times I felt I wanted to quit . But I know that if I am able to hold on and wait patiently and practice more I can win games .
I had that period too. I bought a mouse and everything. And if you think I'm bad at BW now, you should've seen me when I was playing 2-3 games a day, trying to improve, in the ICCUP Training Program. Am I gonna get into D+ this way? Probably not. But I don't really care, and neither do a lot of people I'm a casual BW fan. We exist.
Lots of bw members are really helpfull in giving tips and what you should improve in the strategy forum.
Well yeah, if you're a nerd
But why should I have to spend hours and hours of boring shit just to get to have even a tiny bit of fun? Why does Brood War have to be Final Fantasy XIII? Not a lot of people want to play that way. And you do. And that's totally fine. There's absolutely nothing wrong with approaching BW the way you do.
I just think it's a harder sell that it has to be. Most people usually need to be a guy like me before he can be a guy like you. And some guys like me have no interest in getting to C, and that's okay. And you want to get good at the game. And that's also okay. There's more than one way to enjoy Brood War.
It's impossible if you want to improve in broodwar you have to spend time and yes it's a video game that require lots of dedication to be good.
Here's the thing, though. I have a full time job. I have other interests. I watch anime, listen to music, and, yes, play and watch SC2. I don't have the time to get to D+ in BW or Diamond in SC2. And I don't expect to do either in the near future. But I enjoy both games regardless. I'm not unusal in that respect. Not everyone is hardcore.
No I don't believe we should sugar coat the experience to newbies and say "hey this is fun " ain't happening .
"Hey, wanna play this old game?" "Is it fun?" "Nope!"
Do you want BW to die?
You don't advertise every game by saying "hey, you should try this out, you'll have fun you'll see". It just gives false expectations.
Not everyone is hardcore, but you're not selling Brood War to everyone in the first place. BW neither needs nor can attract a mass audience at this point. It's more important to attract maybe 10-20 "right" players who haven't really heard of Brood War (other than being a Blizzard game with cool storyline) or competitive-minded SC2 players than 100-200 random people who will inevitably quit after they see what's up.
Ultimately, if you're still sticking with BW even without being able to put in too much time and effort into the game, you are a hardcore gamer whether you think of yourself as one or not. Being a hardcore gamer isn't about the quantity of time and effort put in, it's about the mindset and what attracts you in a game.
IMO BW should definitely be "advertised" as a challenge of sorts. When I talk of BW, I talk about it as if I'm talking about chess, not Gears of War. And you'll never get anyone interested in chess by saying "it's a really cool game you should try it".
The important thing is to realize that there are plenty of people out there who will be attracted to a "hardcore" game, it's actually a growing tendency lately.
It seems at this point in time, people won't simply go to to the store, see Brood War on the store shelves, and be curious enough to purchase a 10 year old game and play. Therefore, I think it falls on the shoulders of the Brood War community to take an active role in spreading the word that people should still play the game. One of the easiest ways to do this is by advertising a convenience factor to try it out.
It appears that you can download Brood War for free on the ICCUP website. I'm sure this is illegal, as is hosting a private server for Brood War. However, I would think that providing the game for free is more severe than hosting a private server. Nevertheless, it's there, relatively easy to find on a pretty reputable website. What I'm unsure of is why Blizzard allows this to continue. Why don't they intervene and prevent ICCUP from making their game available at no cost? Do they just not care anymore?
Anyway, if this free handout is acceptable, it makes getting Brood War to play very convenient. If you have friends who are reluctant to get Brood War, direct them to that website so that they can be playing in 10 minutes. A little accessibility goes a long way, I believe. However, if this strategy is considered shady, illegal, and just plain wrong, then feel free to ignore it. I would normally discard the idea myself as petty piracy, that is, if it wasn't on the ICCUP website...
On September 29 2011 17:07 Otolia wrote: Though your initiative is admirable, I fear it might not be as useful as you think it is. SC:BW may have a huge history and many forum veterans may be emotionally linked to this game, but it is an understatement to say that SC:BW is overshadowed by his little brother.
You speak about helping new players. That's always a great idea, but who is going to start BW now that SC 2 is out. I'm not speaking about gameplay but about opportunity, most high-level BW foreign players have switched over to SC 2. Why would a brand new player chooser BW over SC 2 when his favorite players are playing SC 2? Who is going to learn about Flash greatness when this guy never appears on streams ? You will certainly have some SC 2 players who will try out BW in order to improve drastically their mechanics/APM, and that should be your public not brand new players.
I'll try not to be too antagonistic (and spark a 45 page long argument about BW and SC2), but I feel that there is a large majority of people who don't care about "opportunity" but think that the BW experience is superior (for them), and thus will play BW over SC2. I myself don't really plan on going anywhere with Starcraft (and that is my own choice), but it's a fun experience, and I think you may be generalising the entire community with your own opinions (which I'm not saying are wrong).
How was that for being neutal?
Adding to this, I actually quit SC2 about 6 months ago because it just wasnt as good as BW. Wanted to go back to bw but not many people play anymore. Many players are in the same situation, some still play sc2 because they can't go back to BW because there are no tourneys and no tmany people outside korea are playing.
I see BW's future to be similar to what happened with Quake 1 & 3, people will eventually go back there because it's just never-ending fun.
I think it's more important to get people spectating than it is to find new players. Watching a stream or a vod takes far less effort and time investment than actually playing, and people interested in playing will end up transitioning from spectators to players anyway.
Also on the subject of BW vs SC2 I think it's kind of inevitable for that kind of conflict to come up, mainly because Blizzard wants it to happen. It's not like Starcraft vs Warcraft where they weren't really competing, or 1.6 vs source where Valve didn't actually care which one people played. Blizzard has thrown BW under the bus in favor of SC2 and trying to get people interested in the older game means constantly struggling against that.
45.Caliber is A.P[PaiN]. I forgot his other akas, he was in vSt. and is a B rank Zerg.
Manner]Silent is (was) SneazeL. He is an A- Protoss. You may know him, he's in the top 4 of the Kaal's International StarLeague right now - the biggest foreign starleague since SC2's release. He's also considered to be in the top 10 outside of Korea.
There are a few other smurfs there, but, well, just going by that, you should understand.
P.S I was (stopped playing actively to manage and organize) an A rank Terran, so there you have 3 players in a 16 man tournament whom should absolutely not be there.
I remember casting some of our "D" and "C" rank tours when I had nothing else to cast. Needless to say, I was casting on people who were at least B in potential most of the time.
Sometimes we sit there and just guess who all the smurfs are. Its rather amusing to see. Keep tight everyone, this is a well-organized movement already. Several of us have already been discussing things like this for a while now. If I had a stronger internet, I'd be broadcasting a lot more often (basically what happened to elegant happened to me).
i keep on trying to learn, but on iccup every player just 1bases me or cheeses literally everygame. 4 pool, 5 pool, double gate, etc etc literally everytime. i like to macro and don't cheese ever... any suggestions?
On October 01 2011 14:52 Silidons wrote: i keep on trying to learn, but on iccup every player just 1bases me or cheeses literally everygame. 4 pool, 5 pool, double gate, etc etc literally everytime. i like to macro and don't cheese ever... any suggestions?
Keep working on your build so you can stop 1 base play and cheese and collect free wins and hopefully play against better opponents who goes for macro games. It's not like you can force your opponent to go macro just because you get 1 based and cheesed every game.
On October 01 2011 14:52 Silidons wrote: i keep on trying to learn, but on iccup every player just 1bases me or cheeses literally everygame. 4 pool, 5 pool, double gate, etc etc literally everytime. i like to macro and don't cheese ever... any suggestions?
I don't know where people have gotten this attitude of NR20mins. That's not how you get better. In my experience, koreans play batshit insane aggression. And that's the basis of how you get better. If you can't micro/macro off 1 base, how are you going to do it off 3? The way I've seen progression is (using ZvT as an example)
1. You 4 pool every game. You're forced to ling micro to the extreme every game if you ever want to win against your practice partners who will quickly catch on to your constant 4pool. 2. You realize you need more econ so you 9 pool every game instead. Once people get good enough to where you can't kill them outright with a 9pool, you start to expand after the initial attack. 3. Same as above but with a 12 pool. 4. Your opponents are now so good at dealing with ling aggression that you throw down a fast lair after expand. Cut down on lings and instead make a spire. Learn to muta micro. 5. You constant do the 12pool variation of 2 hatch muta. Attain jaedong like muta micro. Then, as your opponents get better, you vary your build here and there, maybe 4 more zerglings this game, maybe 2 less lings this game. Maybe you go in with your first 6 mutas, or maybe you wait one more round and do a muta/ling attack.
That alone can get you to like B rank. A strong 2 hatch muta with excellent ling micro, muta micro, and macro will roll basically everyone. Even if they know it's coming. And it really only has 1-2 holes in it where you can get cheesed so you learn to watch for those and know exactly how to react. Then, when you finally start to use 12 hatch, you're so much harder to cheese because you have godly ling micro, early game game-sense(since that was the majority of your games), and once your 3 hatch mutas come out, it's basically gg. Since you're used to having to end the game with your mutas, you'll learn to find any hole in the enemy and just finish the game outright with harass.
The alternative is mass gaming doing standard 3 hatch muta over and over again, where you have to ling harass, muta harass, 2 base saturated macro, expand to 3rd base, tech to lurkers, etc. Not to mention that there are dozens of different cheeses and variations that are designed specifically to hit like 10 different timing windows. BBS, proxy 8rax, bunker rush, sparks terran, ayumi, 1 base valkonic, 2 rax expand, standard 3 tank push, any kind of vulture/wraith opening...
On October 01 2011 14:52 Silidons wrote: i keep on trying to learn, but on iccup every player just 1bases me or cheeses literally everygame. 4 pool, 5 pool, double gate, etc etc literally everytime. i like to macro and don't cheese ever... any suggestions?
I don't know where people have gotten this attitude of NR20mins. That's not how you get better. In my experience, koreans play batshit insane aggression. And that's the basis of how you get better. If you can't micro/macro off 1 base, how are you going to do it off 3? The way I've seen progression is (using ZvT as an example)
1. You 4 pool every game. You're forced to ling micro to the extreme every game if you ever want to win against your practice partners who will quickly catch on to your constant 4pool. 2. You realize you need more econ so you 9 pool every game instead. Once people get good enough to where you can't kill them outright with a 9pool, you start to expand after the initial attack. 3. Same as above but with a 12 pool. 4. Your opponents are now so good at dealing with ling aggression that you throw down a fast lair after expand. Cut down on lings and instead make a spire. Learn to muta micro. 5. You constant do the 12pool variation of 2 hatch muta. Attain jaedong like muta micro. Then, as your opponents get better, you vary your build here and there, maybe 4 more zerglings this game, maybe 2 less lings this game. Maybe you go in with your first 6 mutas, or maybe you wait one more round and do a muta/ling attack.
That alone can get you to like B rank. A strong 2 hatch muta with excellent ling micro, muta micro, and macro will roll basically everyone. Even if they know it's coming. And it really only has 1-2 holes in it where you can get cheesed so you learn to watch for those and know exactly how to react. Then, when you finally start to use 12 hatch, you're so much harder to cheese because you have godly ling micro, early game game-sense(since that was the majority of your games), and once your 3 hatch mutas come out, it's basically gg. Since you're used to having to end the game with your mutas, you'll learn to find any hole in the enemy and just finish the game outright with harass.
The alternative is mass gaming doing standard 3 hatch muta over and over again, where you have to ling harass, muta harass, 2 base saturated macro, expand to 3rd base, tech to lurkers, etc. Not to mention that there are dozens of different cheeses and variations that are designed specifically to hit like 10 different timing windows. BBS, proxy 8rax, bunker rush, sparks terran, ayumi, 1 base valkonic, 2 rax expand, standard 3 tank push, any kind of vulture/wraith opening...
I personally prefer boxer's 1 base TvZ style especially versus zergs who like to hive fast on 3 bases , Flash 1 rax fe is quite weak versus these kind of play because 1) you give zerg to get high end tech despite you having upgrades 2) weak game sense and inability to compensate loses only warrants a gg from you . 3) Army controla and science vessel is imperative 4) failing to take out the zerg's third in a 1 rax fe build means ultralisk with +5 armour and 1 attack with lings , you can say good bye to your mnm and siege tank .
Boxer's build I can buy time and drop an mnm in his base while I try to expand on 2 bases after dropping my units in his base and If he tries to counter attack me , I could just put a bunker and a turret on top of my ramp .I think people under estimate how tough broodwar is on the laddering level ,people on d level are random crazy people , 4pooling ,5pooling 1 base hydra in tvz , 2 base hydra tvz . You name it and because of that some people who play macro and standard games will be pulling out their hair most of the time . They will be What the hell , Why am i dying to these kind of rushes . You have got to learn to live with it and become a better player to adapt to these agressive builds .
On October 01 2011 10:05 beamer159 wrote: I have a half-suggestion, half-inquiry.
It seems at this point in time, people won't simply go to to the store, see Brood War on the store shelves, and be curious enough to purchase a 10 year old game and play. Therefore, I think it falls on the shoulders of the Brood War community to take an active role in spreading the word that people should still play the game. One of the easiest ways to do this is by advertising a convenience factor to try it out.
It appears that you can download Brood War for free on the ICCUP website. I'm sure this is illegal, as is hosting a private server for Brood War. However, I would think that providing the game for free is more severe than hosting a private server. Nevertheless, it's there, relatively easy to find on a pretty reputable website. What I'm unsure of is why Blizzard allows this to continue. Why don't they intervene and prevent ICCUP from making their game available at no cost? Do they just not care anymore?
(...)
Part of why blizzard allows it is because the version iccup hosts has no single player version. Running servers costs money, so maybe blizzer see's it as a good point that iccup runs their own? And of course BW is still awesome advertising for SC2: "You see Bruce Lee kicking like a boss? You want that feeling too but without spending 10 000 hours training? We've got the the right thing for you!"
On October 01 2011 14:52 Silidons wrote: i keep on trying to learn, but on iccup every player just 1bases me or cheeses literally everygame. 4 pool, 5 pool, double gate, etc etc literally everytime. i like to macro and don't cheese ever... any suggestions?
This is strange, I almost never face cheese. Perhaps its to do with your opening build order?
Also 1 base Sair/DT / 2 gate is not cheese
If you go builds like 12 nexus you almost get followed up by a heap of 1 base or 2 base cheese.
I just played a couple games, and man was it FUCKING HARD. It was just as fun as I remember though. I forgot how much I missed lurkers until today. However, I thought the D players would much better than before. Maybe I'm just unlucky =)
On October 01 2011 19:13 StormSnarlX wrote: I just played a couple games, and man was it FUCKING HARD. It was just as fun as I remember though. I forgot how much I missed lurkers until today. However, I thought the D players would much better than before. Maybe I'm just unlucky =)
Haha yea the first couple of games are a pain in the ass if you have been playing sc2 for a while. Like if the mechanics itself isn't hard enough, what about the fucking AI man...
On October 01 2011 19:13 StormSnarlX wrote: I just played a couple games, and man was it FUCKING HARD. It was just as fun as I remember though. I forgot how much I missed lurkers until today. However, I thought the D players would much better than before. Maybe I'm just unlucky =)
D has become a lot easier, a lot of the koreans have left and there is a lot less smurfing.
On October 01 2011 10:05 beamer159 wrote: I have a half-suggestion, half-inquiry.
It seems at this point in time, people won't simply go to to the store, see Brood War on the store shelves, and be curious enough to purchase a 10 year old game and play. Therefore, I think it falls on the shoulders of the Brood War community to take an active role in spreading the word that people should still play the game. One of the easiest ways to do this is by advertising a convenience factor to try it out.
It appears that you can download Brood War for free on the ICCUP website. I'm sure this is illegal, as is hosting a private server for Brood War. However, I would think that providing the game for free is more severe than hosting a private server. Nevertheless, it's there, relatively easy to find on a pretty reputable website. What I'm unsure of is why Blizzard allows this to continue. Why don't they intervene and prevent ICCUP from making their game available at no cost? Do they just not care anymore?
(...)
Part of why blizzard allows it is because the version iccup hosts has no single player version. Running servers costs money, so maybe blizzer see's it as a good point that iccup runs their own? And of course BW is still awesome advertising for SC2: "You see Bruce Lee kicking like a boss? You want that feeling too but without spending 10 000 hours training? We've got the the right thing for you!"
100% _WRONG_
iCCup illegally allows the download of SC:BW, and their entire server is beyond illegal. However, litigation between the jurisdictions of Ukraine/Russia and the United States of America does not exist. Therefore, it would be impossible for Blizzard to shut them down.
On October 01 2011 10:05 beamer159 wrote: I have a half-suggestion, half-inquiry.
It seems at this point in time, people won't simply go to to the store, see Brood War on the store shelves, and be curious enough to purchase a 10 year old game and play. Therefore, I think it falls on the shoulders of the Brood War community to take an active role in spreading the word that people should still play the game. One of the easiest ways to do this is by advertising a convenience factor to try it out.
It appears that you can download Brood War for free on the ICCUP website. I'm sure this is illegal, as is hosting a private server for Brood War. However, I would think that providing the game for free is more severe than hosting a private server. Nevertheless, it's there, relatively easy to find on a pretty reputable website. What I'm unsure of is why Blizzard allows this to continue. Why don't they intervene and prevent ICCUP from making their game available at no cost? Do they just not care anymore?
(...)
Part of why blizzard allows it is because the version iccup hosts has no single player version. Running servers costs money, so maybe blizzer see's it as a good point that iccup runs their own? And of course BW is still awesome advertising for SC2: "You see Bruce Lee kicking like a boss? You want that feeling too but without spending 10 000 hours training? We've got the the right thing for you!"
100% _WRONG_
iCCup illegally allows the download of SC:BW, and their entire server is beyond illegal. However, litigation between the jurisdictions of Ukraine/Russia and the United States of America does not exist. Therefore, it would be impossible for Blizzard to shut them down.
Are Fish and Brain also illegal? Because if so, we might all have to move the the actual servers (US West, East, etc) to receive any form of support or recognition from Blizzard (that is, if you want Blizzard to help).
On October 01 2011 10:05 beamer159 wrote: I have a half-suggestion, half-inquiry.
It seems at this point in time, people won't simply go to to the store, see Brood War on the store shelves, and be curious enough to purchase a 10 year old game and play. Therefore, I think it falls on the shoulders of the Brood War community to take an active role in spreading the word that people should still play the game. One of the easiest ways to do this is by advertising a convenience factor to try it out.
It appears that you can download Brood War for free on the ICCUP website. I'm sure this is illegal, as is hosting a private server for Brood War. However, I would think that providing the game for free is more severe than hosting a private server. Nevertheless, it's there, relatively easy to find on a pretty reputable website. What I'm unsure of is why Blizzard allows this to continue. Why don't they intervene and prevent ICCUP from making their game available at no cost? Do they just not care anymore?
(...)
Part of why blizzard allows it is because the version iccup hosts has no single player version. Running servers costs money, so maybe blizzer see's it as a good point that iccup runs their own? And of course BW is still awesome advertising for SC2: "You see Bruce Lee kicking like a boss? You want that feeling too but without spending 10 000 hours training? We've got the the right thing for you!"
100% _WRONG_
iCCup illegally allows the download of SC:BW, and their entire server is beyond illegal. However, litigation between the jurisdictions of Ukraine/Russia and the United States of America does not exist. Therefore, it would be impossible for Blizzard to shut them down.
Are Fish and Brain also illegal? Because if so, we might all have to move the the actual servers (US West, East, etc) to receive any form of support or recognition from Blizzard (that is, if you want Blizzard to help).
Problem is without the latency patch BW is almost unplayable. The game has evolved to a point where latencies can mean massive balance differences in certain matchups.
On October 01 2011 10:05 beamer159 wrote: I have a half-suggestion, half-inquiry.
It seems at this point in time, people won't simply go to to the store, see Brood War on the store shelves, and be curious enough to purchase a 10 year old game and play. Therefore, I think it falls on the shoulders of the Brood War community to take an active role in spreading the word that people should still play the game. One of the easiest ways to do this is by advertising a convenience factor to try it out.
It appears that you can download Brood War for free on the ICCUP website. I'm sure this is illegal, as is hosting a private server for Brood War. However, I would think that providing the game for free is more severe than hosting a private server. Nevertheless, it's there, relatively easy to find on a pretty reputable website. What I'm unsure of is why Blizzard allows this to continue. Why don't they intervene and prevent ICCUP from making their game available at no cost? Do they just not care anymore?
(...)
Part of why blizzard allows it is because the version iccup hosts has no single player version. Running servers costs money, so maybe blizzer see's it as a good point that iccup runs their own? And of course BW is still awesome advertising for SC2: "You see Bruce Lee kicking like a boss? You want that feeling too but without spending 10 000 hours training? We've got the the right thing for you!"
100% _WRONG_
iCCup illegally allows the download of SC:BW, and their entire server is beyond illegal. However, litigation between the jurisdictions of Ukraine/Russia and the United States of America does not exist. Therefore, it would be impossible for Blizzard to shut them down.
Are Fish and Brain also illegal? Because if so, we might all have to move the the actual servers (US West, East, etc) to receive any form of support or recognition from Blizzard (that is, if you want Blizzard to help).
Blizzard has supported ICCUP and given it recognition in the past before.
On October 01 2011 10:05 beamer159 wrote: I have a half-suggestion, half-inquiry.
It seems at this point in time, people won't simply go to to the store, see Brood War on the store shelves, and be curious enough to purchase a 10 year old game and play. Therefore, I think it falls on the shoulders of the Brood War community to take an active role in spreading the word that people should still play the game. One of the easiest ways to do this is by advertising a convenience factor to try it out.
It appears that you can download Brood War for free on the ICCUP website. I'm sure this is illegal, as is hosting a private server for Brood War. However, I would think that providing the game for free is more severe than hosting a private server. Nevertheless, it's there, relatively easy to find on a pretty reputable website. What I'm unsure of is why Blizzard allows this to continue. Why don't they intervene and prevent ICCUP from making their game available at no cost? Do they just not care anymore?
(...)
Part of why blizzard allows it is because the version iccup hosts has no single player version. Running servers costs money, so maybe blizzer see's it as a good point that iccup runs their own? And of course BW is still awesome advertising for SC2: "You see Bruce Lee kicking like a boss? You want that feeling too but without spending 10 000 hours training? We've got the the right thing for you!"
100% _WRONG_
iCCup illegally allows the download of SC:BW, and their entire server is beyond illegal. However, litigation between the jurisdictions of Ukraine/Russia and the United States of America does not exist. Therefore, it would be impossible for Blizzard to shut them down.
Are Fish and Brain also illegal? Because if so, we might all have to move the the actual servers (US West, East, etc) to receive any form of support or recognition from Blizzard (that is, if you want Blizzard to help).
Blizzard has supported ICCUP and given it recognition in the past before.
On October 01 2011 19:45 infinity2k9 wrote: You guys going in op teamliquid on iccup or elsewhere?
we need to reiterate this a lot
CHANNEL: "OP TEAMLIQUID" in non caps
This is where everyone should always go. I have good success with finding people to 1v1 at the D level on this channel, and there is always people hanging out.
On October 01 2011 19:13 StormSnarlX wrote: I just played a couple games, and man was it FUCKING HARD. It was just as fun as I remember though. I forgot how much I missed lurkers until today. However, I thought the D players would much better than before. Maybe I'm just unlucky =)
D has become a lot easier, a lot of the koreans have left and there is a lot less smurfing.
I also wonder if, with the rise in traffic on Team Liquid, there's been a few more people trying it out. New blood would make D easier.
As far as accessibility for newer players. There's a couple things that make it harder naturally and I'm not really sure how it can be overcome. There's instructions to play on Fish and Brain, but there is a lot steps including language packs, changing registry permissions etc. We have the step by step walkthroughs, but just by the amount of steps and the sorts of steps, it does make it harder. I still haven't bothered yet.
iCCup has a good step by step, but one thing I've noticed is there absolutely no mention of port forwarding. I don't know for how many people this is an issue, but it's quite possible for someone to go quite a few seasons and never understand why people won't join your games. Port forwarding itself, although simple once you know it, does seem rather complicated you've never done it before. And itself could be a hindrance to playing.
Both of these are technical issues and I'm not sure necessarily what can be done about it, but I think technical things can be just as much a hindrance.
And the final thing is- we a have a few English casters holding it down like a boss and I wouldn't want to create extra work for them and have them burn out. But it would be nice if there were were a few more english casted vods- particularly of the Korean proleagues. Is there any way offloading the recording and uploading job to other people? But the main thing, is if there are a few english casted vods, I almost wonder if we had a dedicated thread for all english casters.
The combined caster thread would be so that new casters aren't lost in the shuffle and because I don't think we have many casters regularly uploading like Day9. And if there is, then apologies to the caster, but that would also seem to indicate that we need better promotion in the BW General section. If there is a really big caster, then they could have their own thread. I don't know, maybe it's a dumb idea, but I'm just throwing it out there. The main idea is finding a way to highlight the various efforts that are already going on.
What's missing from D-level starcraft is the social aspect. You ladder alone. Win some, lose some, check liquipedia - get back to your normal life. As opposed to a SC2 player that can probably spend days browsing the SC2 forums. If you ask for advice in BW, you get A, B level players with perfect replys, ending topics right then and there. So, a forum where new players can talk to other new players. Create clans, hold tourneys, advance together, challenge the seniors.
Also, as has been mentioned, more english casts. ESPECIALLY dual and tripple casts. These are the most fun to listen to because of the dynamics between the casters. This is where A & B level players can help out.
I'm actually trying to play a couple games of BW as I never played 1v1 in BW. But the game won't patch properly to get on battle.net and I have no clue where to play otherwise.
- streams. Few people stream and fewer talk while streaming. I don't necessarily want analysis, I want entertainment, so that I can spend my whole pitiful life watching BW and assimilating ideas / inspiration like I did in SC2.
- I need someone to explain to me how to analyze my own games. I never needed this in SC2, because it's much easier to mass game and it's easier to track your improvement. But in BW every guide or game revolves around timings that seem mystical to the unitiated. Every guide says "do this if you feel you can achieve this". I feel nothing Trying to use ladder doesn't work because I could go 10-0 one day and 0-10 the next one doing the same thing.
- I want someone to republish stylish' fpvods. A few of those are on the nevake channel, a lot seem to have been lost. In general I want more guides like that, they are immensely helpful. I remember trying the fantasy build taking the liquipedia article literally, and my build looked nothing like stylish' although the food counts were the same.
So, a part of me has been considering dipping my toe into BW commentary, maybe doing PL matches since Nuke has the OSL locked down solid. I don't play, but I like to think i have a pretty good understanding of the game for a spectator. More importantly, I've got years of public speaking experience, so I'm reasonably confident i could keep it entertaining.
Anyway, what sort of tools would i need to go about doing this?
On October 02 2011 04:05 Emon_ wrote: What's missing from D-level starcraft is the social aspect. You ladder alone. Win some, lose some, check liquipedia - get back to your normal life. As opposed to a SC2 player that can probably spend days browsing the SC2 forums. If you ask for advice in BW, you get A, B level players with perfect replys, ending topics right then and there. So, a forum where new players can talk to other new players. Create clans, hold tourneys, advance together, challenge the seniors.
Also, as has been mentioned, more english casts. ESPECIALLY dual and tripple casts. These are the most fun to listen to because of the dynamics between the casters. This is where A & B level players can help out.
This is so true, I'm a d level player with no skill and no friends, and I have no idea where to go for the friends part.
On October 02 2011 04:05 Emon_ wrote: What's missing from D-level starcraft is the social aspect. You ladder alone. Win some, lose some, check liquipedia - get back to your normal life. As opposed to a SC2 player that can probably spend days browsing the SC2 forums. If you ask for advice in BW, you get A, B level players with perfect replys, ending topics right then and there. So, a forum where new players can talk to other new players. Create clans, hold tourneys, advance together, challenge the seniors.
Also, as has been mentioned, more english casts. ESPECIALLY dual and tripple casts. These are the most fun to listen to because of the dynamics between the casters. This is where A & B level players can help out.
This is so true, I'm a d level player with no skill and no friends, and I have no idea where to go for the friends part.
This is kinda why I've been putting off going back to BW as well. Other than TL (forums), options for connecting with other... human beings are somewhat limited. Especially of said low level.
PS. Is it normal that the iccup website takes years to load, sometimes I have to refresh it several times in the process? And it's been like that forever for me tt.
I really think the problem with BW fans is that, they just want to watch the game. They don't really play it anymore, like me. Just waiting for any updates during off-season like right now, and watch if my favorite players/team play and read the recommended section if there are other good games.
don't get me wrong, BW is great it's just that I've played almost no BW last year and this year compared to how I was playing 10 games max a day for 6 months back in 2009 (not always iccup but also with friends on LAN.)
On October 01 2011 19:13 StormSnarlX wrote: I just played a couple games, and man was it FUCKING HARD. It was just as fun as I remember though. I forgot how much I missed lurkers until today. However, I thought the D players would much better than before. Maybe I'm just unlucky =)
D has become a lot easier, a lot of the koreans have left and there is a lot less smurfing.
I also wonder if, with the rise in traffic on Team Liquid, there's been a few more people trying it out. New blood would make D easier.
As far as accessibility for newer players. There's a couple things that make it harder naturally and I'm not really sure how it can be overcome. There's instructions to play on Fish and Brain, but there is a lot steps including language packs, changing registry permissions etc. We have the step by step walkthroughs, but just by the amount of steps and the sorts of steps, it does make it harder. I still haven't bothered yet.
seriously? Two steps: 1. download and install minilauncher or even chaos or wdetector, as long as it has the lanlatency plugin. 2. download and execute the .reg file to have all of the servers. when joining fish it will change your registry indeed, but if you open iccup launcher it will also change your registry by adding iccup to it, so switching between servers is still easy if you close the iccup launcher and open it again before playing on iccup.
Easy as that, tbh, all the other stuff is just extra. oh, and idk if I did something wrong as my windows is in german but i once followed the registry fix thingy and it doesn't work for me (maybe i just did something wrong, but tbh, i don't need it anyway).
oh man, i just played BW yesterday on my friend's laptop (not a problem cause he had a Razer Naga on him). My friends were amazed by 80 apm lol. That being said, i wish i could play BW again but i have a Win7 sadly
On October 02 2011 08:34 Kenpachi wrote: oh man, i just played BW yesterday on my friend's laptop (not a problem cause he had a Razer Naga on him). My friends were amazed by 80 apm lol. That being said, i wish i could play BW again but i have a Win7 sadly
I hear lots of people saying about the Win 7 problems. What is it? Personally I never had any problems on my 2 Win 7 laptops.
On October 02 2011 08:34 Kenpachi wrote: oh man, i just played BW yesterday on my friend's laptop (not a problem cause he had a Razer Naga on him). My friends were amazed by 80 apm lol. That being said, i wish i could play BW again but i have a Win7 sadly
I hear lots of people saying about the Win 7 problems. What is it? Personally I never had any problems on my 2 Win 7 laptops.
i dont know what happened but in the beginning, BW worked completely fine. then i try it out again and i end up crashing every 20 minutes. not sure what the problem is cause idr when it starting crashing
On October 02 2011 08:34 Kenpachi wrote: oh man, i just played BW yesterday on my friend's laptop (not a problem cause he had a Razer Naga on him). My friends were amazed by 80 apm lol. That being said, i wish i could play BW again but i have a Win7 sadly
I hear lots of people saying about the Win 7 problems. What is it? Personally I never had any problems on my 2 Win 7 laptops.
The only problem I get is an RT error when I go window mode with ICCup Launcher or Chaos Launcher. Everything works fine with MiniLauncher.
I only play window mode though, so I don't know any fullscreen problems.
On October 01 2011 19:13 StormSnarlX wrote: I just played a couple games, and man was it FUCKING HARD. It was just as fun as I remember though. I forgot how much I missed lurkers until today. However, I thought the D players would much better than before. Maybe I'm just unlucky =)
D has become a lot easier, a lot of the koreans have left and there is a lot less smurfing.
I also wonder if, with the rise in traffic on Team Liquid, there's been a few more people trying it out. New blood would make D easier.
As far as accessibility for newer players. There's a couple things that make it harder naturally and I'm not really sure how it can be overcome. There's instructions to play on Fish and Brain, but there is a lot steps including language packs, changing registry permissions etc. We have the step by step walkthroughs, but just by the amount of steps and the sorts of steps, it does make it harder. I still haven't bothered yet.
iCCup has a good step by step, but one thing I've noticed is there absolutely no mention of port forwarding. I don't know for how many people this is an issue, but it's quite possible for someone to go quite a few seasons and never understand why people won't join your games. Port forwarding itself, although simple once you know it, does seem rather complicated you've never done it before. And itself could be a hindrance to playing.
Both of these are technical issues and I'm not sure necessarily what can be done about it, but I think technical things can be just as much a hindrance.
And the final thing is- we a have a few English casters holding it down like a boss and I wouldn't want to create extra work for them and have them burn out. But it would be nice if there were were a few more english casted vods- particularly of the Korean proleagues. Is there any way offloading the recording and uploading job to other people? But the main thing, is if there are a few english casted vods, I almost wonder if we had a dedicated thread for all english casters.
The combined caster thread would be so that new casters aren't lost in the shuffle and because I don't think we have many casters regularly uploading like Day9. And if there is, then apologies to the caster, but that would also seem to indicate that we need better promotion in the BW General section. If there is a really big caster, then they could have their own thread. I don't know, maybe it's a dumb idea, but I'm just throwing it out there. The main idea is finding a way to highlight the various efforts that are already going on.
I think if you're just starting BW it's still better that you play on iccup since there's actually people you speak english with. That language barrier on fish/brain can be a bit intimidating and I assume it would be even worse for someone just starting. Also go channel op teamliquid ^^, that's the central place for TL people to meet.
Port forwarding is done differently on different systems so it's hard to write something about it but you're right there's no mention of port forwarding on iccup. With that said, portforward.com is a decent site if anyone has problems with that.
Your suggestion for creating a thread for the list of casters is good. I don't know any of the casters except sayle, nukethestars, eton and XIJABERWALKIX (think he stopped casting though but he was good).
Maybe you can start one to get more exposure for the other casters.
On October 02 2011 04:05 Emon_ wrote: What's missing from D-level starcraft is the social aspect. You ladder alone. Win some, lose some, check liquipedia - get back to your normal life. As opposed to a SC2 player that can probably spend days browsing the SC2 forums. If you ask for advice in BW, you get A, B level players with perfect replys, ending topics right then and there. So, a forum where new players can talk to other new players. Create clans, hold tourneys, advance together, challenge the seniors.
Also, as has been mentioned, more english casts. ESPECIALLY dual and tripple casts. These are the most fun to listen to because of the dynamics between the casters. This is where A & B level players can help out.
Hahaha, for some reason I just found that hilarious after it made me think about the SC2 strategy section.
On October 02 2011 08:34 Kenpachi wrote: oh man, i just played BW yesterday on my friend's laptop (not a problem cause he had a Razer Naga on him). My friends were amazed by 80 apm lol. That being said, i wish i could play BW again but i have a Win7 sadly
I hear lots of people saying about the Win 7 problems. What is it? Personally I never had any problems on my 2 Win 7 laptops.
Odd, I play on linux with almost no problems at all (just no background on bnet) lol.
On October 02 2011 10:27 sLiMpoweR wrote: cant we just let bw rip its sad what it has become. I miss you bwwwwwww
What a pointless thing to write in a thread about strengthening foreign BW. If you really missed BW you would do something besides post a negative comment in this thread.
On October 02 2011 08:05 aimaimaim wrote: I really think the problem with BW fans is that, they just want to watch the game. They don't really play it anymore, like me. Just waiting for any updates during off-season like right now, and watch if my favorite players/team play and read the recommended section if there are other good games.
don't get me wrong, BW is great it's just that I've played almost no BW last year and this year compared to how I was playing 10 games max a day for 6 months back in 2009 (not always iccup but also with friends on LAN.)
i feel bad because i mostly just play with friends now and so it's almost like i dont really contribute to the BW-playing scene lol.
it just got so hard to ladder this year on ICCUP. Once I got past D it was so hard to find games because I can't host games. it will be so much easier to ladder on fish once I get the 30 games played though (which is fucking even harder to get games vs strangers so I am slowly adding games to that playing vs friends).
i know a lot of people that only watch BW nowdays and I wonder why they dont want to play anymore. I know it's a hard game and we are all terrible, but it's still a fucking blast. I guess a lot of that is having friends to play with though.
yeah my problem right now is everyone i play is super better than me and it's a bit intimidating when everyone has ~200ish apm that i play on D. i mean it makes me really realize how good even C's are when ppl who are D are so fast etc.
in sc2 there is a HUGE difference (i came from there, not trying to compare but showing where i come from) in how bad someone actually is in bronze (which is the same as D) and how bad a player is who is D. for me it seems any D player can be masters in sc2 (i'm masters and sc2 and i get my ass handed to me here).
it just seems at this point in time its really hard starting up from scratch? i guess.
man, all this win7 problems, there is a simple fix: format your PC and install an OS that works fine with BW, even if it's just vista, I never had problems with my BW there.
i might do something on how to watch pro games if i get a few free hours sometime this week, been a bit hectic the last few days so have missed most of this thread
On October 02 2011 19:42 zwala wrote: wat about show matches between BW players who switched to SCII and the new top foreigners ?
I really don't think any would be interested unless there's significant enough money on the line, and if there was such a money on the line it would probably be better spent on another promotional activity imo.
Dragging in people who have left BW behind to play a couple of games doesn't strike me as something that can have any significant benefits.
also to add for people having problems with BW on win7, are you using the cd from the original game? i have had no problems at all with mounting an iso of the game using PowerISO, could that be your problem?
On October 02 2011 19:42 zwala wrote: wat about show matches between BW players who switched to SCII and the new top foreigners ?
The new top foreigners would smash. Even if you mean like Nony and Day[9], they're long out of practice.
Perhaps more useful would be getting Nony (who occasionally says BW was a better game), and Idra (who will not stop fucking talking about how BW is a way better game because SC2 sucks and everyone who beats him sucks too who only beat him because bullshit etc) to have a TSL2 rematch commentated by Artosis (who often implies BW was a better game). That would have a bigger draw of people who weren't already BW fans, and would probably be a lot less one-sided, even if neither of them would be playing at anything like their former level.
On October 02 2011 10:27 sLiMpoweR wrote: cant we just let bw rip its sad what it has become. I miss you bwwwwwww
I sometimes feel this is the predominant attitude, and it makes me want to give up.
in sc2 there is a HUGE difference (i came from there, not trying to compare but showing where i come from) in how bad someone actually is in bronze (which is the same as D) and how bad a player is who is D. for me it seems any D player can be masters in sc2 (i'm masters and sc2 and i get my ass handed to me here).
That has less to do with BW as a game and more to do with the fact ICCUP and Fish are pretty much 99% hardcore people nowadays. If we ever did flood it with enough newbs, the ranks would be devalued to the point of worthlessness, the way no one cares about being Diamond, no one would be impressed by a B rank.
On October 02 2011 19:16 LML wrote: man, all this win7 problems, there is a simple fix: format your PC and install an OS that works fine with BW, even if it's just vista, I never had problems with my BW there.
I think this is a step too far for most people.....
On October 02 2011 19:42 zwala wrote: wat about show matches between BW players who switched to SCII and the new top foreigners ?
The new top foreigners would smash. Even if you mean like Nony and Day[9], they're long out of practice.
Perhaps more useful would be getting Nony (who occasionally says BW was a better game), and Idra (who will not stop fucking talking about how BW is a way better game because SC2 sucks and everyone who beats him sucks too who only beat him because bullshit etc) to have a TSL2 rematch commentated by Artosis (who often implies BW was a better game). That would have a bigger draw of people who weren't already BW fans, and would probably be a lot less one-sided, even if neither of them would be playing at anything like their former level.
in sc2 there is a HUGE difference (i came from there, not trying to compare but showing where i come from) in how bad someone actually is in bronze (which is the same as D) and how bad a player is who is D. for me it seems any D player can be masters in sc2 (i'm masters and sc2 and i get my ass handed to me here).
That has less to do with BW as a game and more to do with the fact ICCUP and Fish are pretty much 99% hardcore people nowadays. If we ever did flood it with enough newbs, the ranks would be devalued to the point of worthlessness, the way no one cares about being Diamond, no one would be impressed by a B rank.
On October 02 2011 19:16 LML wrote: man, all this win7 problems, there is a simple fix: format your PC and install an OS that works fine with BW, even if it's just vista, I never had problems with my BW there.
I think this is a step too far for most people.....
i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
On October 02 2011 21:43 Silidons wrote: i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
I think new players are more attracted by team games, 1v1 only starts to become really fun after you learn a few basic things... how many people start off on bw thinking about wanting to become a good 1v1 player, really?
On October 02 2011 21:43 Silidons wrote: i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
I think new players are more attracted by team games, 1v1 only starts to become really fun after you learn a few basic things... how many people start off on bw thinking about wanting to become a good 1v1 player, really?
well personally i dont enjoy team games. just yesterday i actually connected to fish server, and that is way better for beginners. if a game has "초보" in it, that means chobo, or beginner, and they mean it. the ppl i was playing had ~80apm.
On October 02 2011 21:43 Silidons wrote: i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
I think new players are more attracted by team games, 1v1 only starts to become really fun after you learn a few basic things... how many people start off on bw thinking about wanting to become a good 1v1 player, really?
Well, the forums are all about competitive 1v1, which is what I've been talking about.
So, here's an interesting fact:
The Ribbon Classic, due to drama and rescheduling, ended up running during MLG Anaheim's championship Sunday. It peaked at around ~450 views.
The Ribbon Revival, which Game forgot to advertise on Reddit (;_;) was very purposefully scheduled to run on a day with no major SC2 tournaments competing with it. It peaked at around ~1650 views, and maintained over 1,000. I find that really interesting, don't you guys?
On October 02 2011 21:43 Silidons wrote: i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
I think new players are more attracted by team games, 1v1 only starts to become really fun after you learn a few basic things... how many people start off on bw thinking about wanting to become a good 1v1 player, really?
Me. While most people talk about casual gaming, there is never a mindset to just play a game for hours on end just to endlessly be rolled over. There is a goal, whether you are good, or mediocre, you aimed to be good from the get go. Regardless of that, anyone who would play BW to this day should aim to be good. I know, you're thinking, nah they're just from SC2 or somewhere else and have a general interest of the feeling of the BW community, and the origin of the game. But that's not the case for your post sir, because this thread is about strengthening foreign BW, not making it more mediocre.
On October 02 2011 19:42 zwala wrote: wat about show matches between BW players who switched to SCII and the new top foreigners ?
The new top foreigners would smash. Even if you mean like Nony and Day[9], they're long out of practice.
Perhaps more useful would be getting Nony (who occasionally says BW was a better game), and Idra (who will not stop fucking talking about how BW is a way better game because SC2 sucks and everyone who beats him sucks too who only beat him because bullshit etc) to have a TSL2 rematch commentated by Artosis (who often implies BW was a better game). That would have a bigger draw of people who weren't already BW fans, and would probably be a lot less one-sided, even if neither of them would be playing at anything like their former level.
On October 02 2011 10:27 sLiMpoweR wrote: cant we just let bw rip its sad what it has become. I miss you bwwwwwww
I sometimes feel this is the predominant attitude, and it makes me want to give up.
in sc2 there is a HUGE difference (i came from there, not trying to compare but showing where i come from) in how bad someone actually is in bronze (which is the same as D) and how bad a player is who is D. for me it seems any D player can be masters in sc2 (i'm masters and sc2 and i get my ass handed to me here).
That has less to do with BW as a game and more to do with the fact ICCUP and Fish are pretty much 99% hardcore people nowadays. If we ever did flood it with enough newbs, the ranks would be devalued to the point of worthlessness, the way no one cares about being Diamond, no one would be impressed by a B rank.
On October 02 2011 19:16 LML wrote: man, all this win7 problems, there is a simple fix: format your PC and install an OS that works fine with BW, even if it's just vista, I never had problems with my BW there.
I think this is a step too far for most people.....
i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
Eh. Not that much. I have 60 APM, and I can play at a D level fairly consistently (though, granted, I'm protoss). A lot of people in D have like 500 APM but don't do anything with it. It's actually kind of funny. I'm plat in SC2, and able to hold D. It's just a matter of getting used to it, D's not all that good once you get used to manual mine and hotkeying your gateways individually (4d5d6d7z8t9p0p I can has macro)
On October 02 2011 21:43 Silidons wrote: i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
I think new players are more attracted by team games, 1v1 only starts to become really fun after you learn a few basic things... how many people start off on bw thinking about wanting to become a good 1v1 player, really?
Me. While most people talk about casual gaming, there is never a mindset to just play a game for hours on end just to endlessly be rolled over. There is a goal, whether you are good, or mediocre, you aimed to be good from the get go. Regardless of that, anyone who would play BW to this day should aim to be good. I know, you're thinking, nah they're just from SC2 or somewhere else and have a general interest of the feeling of the BW community, and the origin of the game. But that's not the case for your post sir, because this thread is about strengthening foreign BW, not making it more mediocre.
See, I don't agree with this at all. You can't have a sustainable scene be all pro people. There have to be lots of casuals who aren't good but still like watching foreign BW, because those are the people who watch/sponsor the tournaments that let the hardcore people afford to play more and more.
On October 02 2011 18:30 Silidons wrote: yeah my problem right now is everyone i play is super better than me and it's a bit intimidating when everyone has ~200ish apm that i play on D. i mean it makes me really realize how good even C's are when ppl who are D are so fast etc.
in sc2 there is a HUGE difference (i came from there, not trying to compare but showing where i come from) in how bad someone actually is in bronze (which is the same as D) and how bad a player is who is D. for me it seems any D player can be masters in sc2 (i'm masters and sc2 and i get my ass handed to me here).
it just seems at this point in time its really hard starting up from scratch? i guess.
You just gotta lose your first 300 games, in SC2 a win is a win, but in BW when you win its the most rewarding feeling in the world.
On October 02 2011 18:30 Silidons wrote: yeah my problem right now is everyone i play is super better than me and it's a bit intimidating when everyone has ~200ish apm that i play on D. i mean it makes me really realize how good even C's are when ppl who are D are so fast etc.
in sc2 there is a HUGE difference (i came from there, not trying to compare but showing where i come from) in how bad someone actually is in bronze (which is the same as D) and how bad a player is who is D. for me it seems any D player can be masters in sc2 (i'm masters and sc2 and i get my ass handed to me here).
it just seems at this point in time its really hard starting up from scratch? i guess.
I think this really is the biggest issue. There are definitely people who want to start BW but there just isn't much a community for them. Like a E/D-/low D level community. Maybe we could host a big "learn BW" event where a bunch of volunteer D/C level people teach the basics. It would also give the newer players a chance to meet with other players of their skill level so they don't feel so alienated on iccup
On October 02 2011 19:42 zwala wrote: wat about show matches between BW players who switched to SCII and the new top foreigners ?
The new top foreigners would smash. Even if you mean like Nony and Day[9], they're long out of practice.
Perhaps more useful would be getting Nony (who occasionally says BW was a better game), and Idra (who will not stop fucking talking about how BW is a way better game because SC2 sucks and everyone who beats him sucks too who only beat him because bullshit etc) to have a TSL2 rematch commentated by Artosis (who often implies BW was a better game). That would have a bigger draw of people who weren't already BW fans, and would probably be a lot less one-sided, even if neither of them would be playing at anything like their former level.
On October 02 2011 10:27 sLiMpoweR wrote: cant we just let bw rip its sad what it has become. I miss you bwwwwwww
I sometimes feel this is the predominant attitude, and it makes me want to give up.
in sc2 there is a HUGE difference (i came from there, not trying to compare but showing where i come from) in how bad someone actually is in bronze (which is the same as D) and how bad a player is who is D. for me it seems any D player can be masters in sc2 (i'm masters and sc2 and i get my ass handed to me here).
That has less to do with BW as a game and more to do with the fact ICCUP and Fish are pretty much 99% hardcore people nowadays. If we ever did flood it with enough newbs, the ranks would be devalued to the point of worthlessness, the way no one cares about being Diamond, no one would be impressed by a B rank.
On October 02 2011 19:16 LML wrote: man, all this win7 problems, there is a simple fix: format your PC and install an OS that works fine with BW, even if it's just vista, I never had problems with my BW there.
I think this is a step too far for most people.....
i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
Eh. Not that much. I have 60 APM, and I can play at a D level fairly consistently (though, granted, I'm protoss). A lot of people in D have like 500 APM but don't do anything with it. It's actually kind of funny. I'm plat in SC2, and able to hold D. It's just a matter of getting used to it, D's not all that good once you get used to manual mine and hotkeying your gateways individually (4d5d6d7z8t9p0p I can has macro)
ROFL you really shouldn't be criticizing other players if you only have 60 APM, sure the people who have 300 APM are spamming a bit but in the end they still have more apm than you.
On October 02 2011 19:42 zwala wrote: wat about show matches between BW players who switched to SCII and the new top foreigners ?
The new top foreigners would smash. Even if you mean like Nony and Day[9], they're long out of practice.
Perhaps more useful would be getting Nony (who occasionally says BW was a better game), and Idra (who will not stop fucking talking about how BW is a way better game because SC2 sucks and everyone who beats him sucks too who only beat him because bullshit etc) to have a TSL2 rematch commentated by Artosis (who often implies BW was a better game). That would have a bigger draw of people who weren't already BW fans, and would probably be a lot less one-sided, even if neither of them would be playing at anything like their former level.
On October 02 2011 10:27 sLiMpoweR wrote: cant we just let bw rip its sad what it has become. I miss you bwwwwwww
I sometimes feel this is the predominant attitude, and it makes me want to give up.
in sc2 there is a HUGE difference (i came from there, not trying to compare but showing where i come from) in how bad someone actually is in bronze (which is the same as D) and how bad a player is who is D. for me it seems any D player can be masters in sc2 (i'm masters and sc2 and i get my ass handed to me here).
That has less to do with BW as a game and more to do with the fact ICCUP and Fish are pretty much 99% hardcore people nowadays. If we ever did flood it with enough newbs, the ranks would be devalued to the point of worthlessness, the way no one cares about being Diamond, no one would be impressed by a B rank.
On October 02 2011 19:16 LML wrote: man, all this win7 problems, there is a simple fix: format your PC and install an OS that works fine with BW, even if it's just vista, I never had problems with my BW there.
I think this is a step too far for most people.....
i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
Eh. Not that much. I have 60 APM, and I can play at a D level fairly consistently (though, granted, I'm protoss). A lot of people in D have like 500 APM but don't do anything with it. It's actually kind of funny. I'm plat in SC2, and able to hold D. It's just a matter of getting used to it, D's not all that good once you get used to manual mine and hotkeying your gateways individually (4d5d6d7z8t9p0p I can has macro)
ROFL you really shouldn't be criticizing other players if you only have 60 APM, sure the people who have 300 APM are spamming a bit but in the end they still have more apm than you.
So? I'm still beating them with my sixty, so obviously it's not much help to them.
On October 02 2011 19:42 zwala wrote: wat about show matches between BW players who switched to SCII and the new top foreigners ?
The new top foreigners would smash. Even if you mean like Nony and Day[9], they're long out of practice.
Perhaps more useful would be getting Nony (who occasionally says BW was a better game), and Idra (who will not stop fucking talking about how BW is a way better game because SC2 sucks and everyone who beats him sucks too who only beat him because bullshit etc) to have a TSL2 rematch commentated by Artosis (who often implies BW was a better game). That would have a bigger draw of people who weren't already BW fans, and would probably be a lot less one-sided, even if neither of them would be playing at anything like their former level.
On October 02 2011 10:27 sLiMpoweR wrote: cant we just let bw rip its sad what it has become. I miss you bwwwwwww
I sometimes feel this is the predominant attitude, and it makes me want to give up.
in sc2 there is a HUGE difference (i came from there, not trying to compare but showing where i come from) in how bad someone actually is in bronze (which is the same as D) and how bad a player is who is D. for me it seems any D player can be masters in sc2 (i'm masters and sc2 and i get my ass handed to me here).
That has less to do with BW as a game and more to do with the fact ICCUP and Fish are pretty much 99% hardcore people nowadays. If we ever did flood it with enough newbs, the ranks would be devalued to the point of worthlessness, the way no one cares about being Diamond, no one would be impressed by a B rank.
On October 02 2011 19:16 LML wrote: man, all this win7 problems, there is a simple fix: format your PC and install an OS that works fine with BW, even if it's just vista, I never had problems with my BW there.
I think this is a step too far for most people.....
i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
Eh. Not that much. I have 60 APM, and I can play at a D level fairly consistently (though, granted, I'm protoss). A lot of people in D have like 500 APM but don't do anything with it. It's actually kind of funny. I'm plat in SC2, and able to hold D. It's just a matter of getting used to it, D's not all that good once you get used to manual mine and hotkeying your gateways individually (4d5d6d7z8t9p0p I can has macro)
ROFL you really shouldn't be criticizing other players if you only have 60 APM, sure the people who have 300 APM are spamming a bit but in the end they still have more apm than you.
So? I'm still beating them with my sixty, so obviously it's not much help to them.
On October 03 2011 15:11 writer22816 wrote: I would gladly update invest the time to update Liquipedia but I don't know what the standard builds are. I'm signing up anyway.
Created a Liquipedia page for the Neo Bisu Build, please read and update.
On October 02 2011 19:42 zwala wrote: wat about show matches between BW players who switched to SCII and the new top foreigners ?
The new top foreigners would smash. Even if you mean like Nony and Day[9], they're long out of practice.
Perhaps more useful would be getting Nony (who occasionally says BW was a better game), and Idra (who will not stop fucking talking about how BW is a way better game because SC2 sucks and everyone who beats him sucks too who only beat him because bullshit etc) to have a TSL2 rematch commentated by Artosis (who often implies BW was a better game). That would have a bigger draw of people who weren't already BW fans, and would probably be a lot less one-sided, even if neither of them would be playing at anything like their former level.
On October 02 2011 10:27 sLiMpoweR wrote: cant we just let bw rip its sad what it has become. I miss you bwwwwwww
I sometimes feel this is the predominant attitude, and it makes me want to give up.
in sc2 there is a HUGE difference (i came from there, not trying to compare but showing where i come from) in how bad someone actually is in bronze (which is the same as D) and how bad a player is who is D. for me it seems any D player can be masters in sc2 (i'm masters and sc2 and i get my ass handed to me here).
That has less to do with BW as a game and more to do with the fact ICCUP and Fish are pretty much 99% hardcore people nowadays. If we ever did flood it with enough newbs, the ranks would be devalued to the point of worthlessness, the way no one cares about being Diamond, no one would be impressed by a B rank.
On October 02 2011 19:16 LML wrote: man, all this win7 problems, there is a simple fix: format your PC and install an OS that works fine with BW, even if it's just vista, I never had problems with my BW there.
I think this is a step too far for most people.....
i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
Eh. Not that much. I have 60 APM, and I can play at a D level fairly consistently (though, granted, I'm protoss). A lot of people in D have like 500 APM but don't do anything with it. It's actually kind of funny. I'm plat in SC2, and able to hold D. It's just a matter of getting used to it, D's not all that good once you get used to manual mine and hotkeying your gateways individually (4d5d6d7z8t9p0p I can has macro)
ROFL you really shouldn't be criticizing other players if you only have 60 APM, sure the people who have 300 APM are spamming a bit but in the end they still have more apm than you.
So? I'm still beating them with my sixty, so obviously it's not much help to them.
if you want to play BW with noobs and dont really care to improve play on game ranger. I was playing on it the other day and i think the majority of players on it would rank around d-. There are a lot of players there that have just started and anyone can host without having a forwarded port. Its also a good place for UMS and BGH.
On October 02 2011 19:42 zwala wrote: wat about show matches between BW players who switched to SCII and the new top foreigners ?
The new top foreigners would smash. Even if you mean like Nony and Day[9], they're long out of practice.
Perhaps more useful would be getting Nony (who occasionally says BW was a better game), and Idra (who will not stop fucking talking about how BW is a way better game because SC2 sucks and everyone who beats him sucks too who only beat him because bullshit etc) to have a TSL2 rematch commentated by Artosis (who often implies BW was a better game). That would have a bigger draw of people who weren't already BW fans, and would probably be a lot less one-sided, even if neither of them would be playing at anything like their former level.
On October 02 2011 10:27 sLiMpoweR wrote: cant we just let bw rip its sad what it has become. I miss you bwwwwwww
I sometimes feel this is the predominant attitude, and it makes me want to give up.
in sc2 there is a HUGE difference (i came from there, not trying to compare but showing where i come from) in how bad someone actually is in bronze (which is the same as D) and how bad a player is who is D. for me it seems any D player can be masters in sc2 (i'm masters and sc2 and i get my ass handed to me here).
That has less to do with BW as a game and more to do with the fact ICCUP and Fish are pretty much 99% hardcore people nowadays. If we ever did flood it with enough newbs, the ranks would be devalued to the point of worthlessness, the way no one cares about being Diamond, no one would be impressed by a B rank.
On October 02 2011 19:16 LML wrote: man, all this win7 problems, there is a simple fix: format your PC and install an OS that works fine with BW, even if it's just vista, I never had problems with my BW there.
I think this is a step too far for most people.....
i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
Eh. Not that much. I have 60 APM, and I can play at a D level fairly consistently (though, granted, I'm protoss). A lot of people in D have like 500 APM but don't do anything with it. It's actually kind of funny. I'm plat in SC2, and able to hold D. It's just a matter of getting used to it, D's not all that good once you get used to manual mine and hotkeying your gateways individually (4d5d6d7z8t9p0p I can has macro)
ROFL you really shouldn't be criticizing other players if you only have 60 APM, sure the people who have 300 APM are spamming a bit but in the end they still have more apm than you.
So? I'm still beating them with my sixty, so obviously it's not much help to them.
On October 02 2011 19:42 zwala wrote: wat about show matches between BW players who switched to SCII and the new top foreigners ?
The new top foreigners would smash. Even if you mean like Nony and Day[9], they're long out of practice.
Perhaps more useful would be getting Nony (who occasionally says BW was a better game), and Idra (who will not stop fucking talking about how BW is a way better game because SC2 sucks and everyone who beats him sucks too who only beat him because bullshit etc) to have a TSL2 rematch commentated by Artosis (who often implies BW was a better game). That would have a bigger draw of people who weren't already BW fans, and would probably be a lot less one-sided, even if neither of them would be playing at anything like their former level.
On October 02 2011 10:27 sLiMpoweR wrote: cant we just let bw rip its sad what it has become. I miss you bwwwwwww
I sometimes feel this is the predominant attitude, and it makes me want to give up.
in sc2 there is a HUGE difference (i came from there, not trying to compare but showing where i come from) in how bad someone actually is in bronze (which is the same as D) and how bad a player is who is D. for me it seems any D player can be masters in sc2 (i'm masters and sc2 and i get my ass handed to me here).
That has less to do with BW as a game and more to do with the fact ICCUP and Fish are pretty much 99% hardcore people nowadays. If we ever did flood it with enough newbs, the ranks would be devalued to the point of worthlessness, the way no one cares about being Diamond, no one would be impressed by a B rank.
On October 02 2011 19:16 LML wrote: man, all this win7 problems, there is a simple fix: format your PC and install an OS that works fine with BW, even if it's just vista, I never had problems with my BW there.
I think this is a step too far for most people.....
i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
Eh. Not that much. I have 60 APM, and I can play at a D level fairly consistently (though, granted, I'm protoss). A lot of people in D have like 500 APM but don't do anything with it. It's actually kind of funny. I'm plat in SC2, and able to hold D. It's just a matter of getting used to it, D's not all that good once you get used to manual mine and hotkeying your gateways individually (4d5d6d7z8t9p0p I can has macro)
ROFL you really shouldn't be criticizing other players if you only have 60 APM, sure the people who have 300 APM are spamming a bit but in the end they still have more apm than you.
So? I'm still beating them with my sixty, so obviously it's not much help to them.
if you want to play BW with noobs and dont really care to improve play on game ranger. I was playing on it the other day and i think the majority of players on it would rank around d-. There are a lot of players there that have just started and anyone can host without having a forwarded port. Its also a good place for UMS and BGH.
I bolded the part that intrigues me the most. Link?
On October 02 2011 19:42 zwala wrote: wat about show matches between BW players who switched to SCII and the new top foreigners ?
The new top foreigners would smash. Even if you mean like Nony and Day[9], they're long out of practice.
Perhaps more useful would be getting Nony (who occasionally says BW was a better game), and Idra (who will not stop fucking talking about how BW is a way better game because SC2 sucks and everyone who beats him sucks too who only beat him because bullshit etc) to have a TSL2 rematch commentated by Artosis (who often implies BW was a better game). That would have a bigger draw of people who weren't already BW fans, and would probably be a lot less one-sided, even if neither of them would be playing at anything like their former level.
On October 02 2011 10:27 sLiMpoweR wrote: cant we just let bw rip its sad what it has become. I miss you bwwwwwww
I sometimes feel this is the predominant attitude, and it makes me want to give up.
in sc2 there is a HUGE difference (i came from there, not trying to compare but showing where i come from) in how bad someone actually is in bronze (which is the same as D) and how bad a player is who is D. for me it seems any D player can be masters in sc2 (i'm masters and sc2 and i get my ass handed to me here).
That has less to do with BW as a game and more to do with the fact ICCUP and Fish are pretty much 99% hardcore people nowadays. If we ever did flood it with enough newbs, the ranks would be devalued to the point of worthlessness, the way no one cares about being Diamond, no one would be impressed by a B rank.
On October 02 2011 19:16 LML wrote: man, all this win7 problems, there is a simple fix: format your PC and install an OS that works fine with BW, even if it's just vista, I never had problems with my BW there.
I think this is a step too far for most people.....
i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
Eh. Not that much. I have 60 APM, and I can play at a D level fairly consistently (though, granted, I'm protoss). A lot of people in D have like 500 APM but don't do anything with it. It's actually kind of funny. I'm plat in SC2, and able to hold D. It's just a matter of getting used to it, D's not all that good once you get used to manual mine and hotkeying your gateways individually (4d5d6d7z8t9p0p I can has macro)
ROFL you really shouldn't be criticizing other players if you only have 60 APM, sure the people who have 300 APM are spamming a bit but in the end they still have more apm than you.
So? I'm still beating them with my sixty, so obviously it's not much help to them.
On October 02 2011 19:42 zwala wrote: wat about show matches between BW players who switched to SCII and the new top foreigners ?
The new top foreigners would smash. Even if you mean like Nony and Day[9], they're long out of practice.
Perhaps more useful would be getting Nony (who occasionally says BW was a better game), and Idra (who will not stop fucking talking about how BW is a way better game because SC2 sucks and everyone who beats him sucks too who only beat him because bullshit etc) to have a TSL2 rematch commentated by Artosis (who often implies BW was a better game). That would have a bigger draw of people who weren't already BW fans, and would probably be a lot less one-sided, even if neither of them would be playing at anything like their former level.
On October 02 2011 10:27 sLiMpoweR wrote: cant we just let bw rip its sad what it has become. I miss you bwwwwwww
I sometimes feel this is the predominant attitude, and it makes me want to give up.
in sc2 there is a HUGE difference (i came from there, not trying to compare but showing where i come from) in how bad someone actually is in bronze (which is the same as D) and how bad a player is who is D. for me it seems any D player can be masters in sc2 (i'm masters and sc2 and i get my ass handed to me here).
That has less to do with BW as a game and more to do with the fact ICCUP and Fish are pretty much 99% hardcore people nowadays. If we ever did flood it with enough newbs, the ranks would be devalued to the point of worthlessness, the way no one cares about being Diamond, no one would be impressed by a B rank.
On October 02 2011 19:16 LML wrote: man, all this win7 problems, there is a simple fix: format your PC and install an OS that works fine with BW, even if it's just vista, I never had problems with my BW there.
I think this is a step too far for most people.....
i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
Eh. Not that much. I have 60 APM, and I can play at a D level fairly consistently (though, granted, I'm protoss). A lot of people in D have like 500 APM but don't do anything with it. It's actually kind of funny. I'm plat in SC2, and able to hold D. It's just a matter of getting used to it, D's not all that good once you get used to manual mine and hotkeying your gateways individually (4d5d6d7z8t9p0p I can has macro)
ROFL you really shouldn't be criticizing other players if you only have 60 APM, sure the people who have 300 APM are spamming a bit but in the end they still have more apm than you.
So? I'm still beating them with my sixty, so obviously it's not much help to them.
if you want to play BW with noobs and dont really care to improve play on game ranger. I was playing on it the other day and i think the majority of players on it would rank around d-. There are a lot of players there that have just started and anyone can host without having a forwarded port. Its also a good place for UMS and BGH.
I bolded the part that intrigues me the most. Link?
On October 03 2011 15:11 writer22816 wrote: I would gladly update invest the time to update Liquipedia but I don't know what the standard builds are. I'm signing up anyway.
You can also post other useful stuff, update things about players, people in the scene, unit/building information if there is something not listed yet that you think it interesting, update about events, etc. It's not only about builds.
On October 02 2011 19:42 zwala wrote: wat about show matches between BW players who switched to SCII and the new top foreigners ?
The new top foreigners would smash. Even if you mean like Nony and Day[9], they're long out of practice.
Perhaps more useful would be getting Nony (who occasionally says BW was a better game), and Idra (who will not stop fucking talking about how BW is a way better game because SC2 sucks and everyone who beats him sucks too who only beat him because bullshit etc) to have a TSL2 rematch commentated by Artosis (who often implies BW was a better game). That would have a bigger draw of people who weren't already BW fans, and would probably be a lot less one-sided, even if neither of them would be playing at anything like their former level.
On October 02 2011 10:27 sLiMpoweR wrote: cant we just let bw rip its sad what it has become. I miss you bwwwwwww
I sometimes feel this is the predominant attitude, and it makes me want to give up.
in sc2 there is a HUGE difference (i came from there, not trying to compare but showing where i come from) in how bad someone actually is in bronze (which is the same as D) and how bad a player is who is D. for me it seems any D player can be masters in sc2 (i'm masters and sc2 and i get my ass handed to me here).
That has less to do with BW as a game and more to do with the fact ICCUP and Fish are pretty much 99% hardcore people nowadays. If we ever did flood it with enough newbs, the ranks would be devalued to the point of worthlessness, the way no one cares about being Diamond, no one would be impressed by a B rank.
On October 02 2011 19:16 LML wrote: man, all this win7 problems, there is a simple fix: format your PC and install an OS that works fine with BW, even if it's just vista, I never had problems with my BW there.
I think this is a step too far for most people.....
i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
Eh. Not that much. I have 60 APM, and I can play at a D level fairly consistently (though, granted, I'm protoss). A lot of people in D have like 500 APM but don't do anything with it. It's actually kind of funny. I'm plat in SC2, and able to hold D. It's just a matter of getting used to it, D's not all that good once you get used to manual mine and hotkeying your gateways individually (4d5d6d7z8t9p0p I can has macro)
ROFL you really shouldn't be criticizing other players if you only have 60 APM, sure the people who have 300 APM are spamming a bit but in the end they still have more apm than you.
I had this friend who always cried to me about his APM being too low, I've told if he ever talks about APM infront of me again I am gonna smash his face. Instead of focusing on APM, better focus on making and controling units aswell as not getting supply stuck and get your timings right, eventually APM will raise when the actions become mechanics and you become able to do more things besides that. APM is one of the not so important things, especially on lower levels, no pro level it becomes more important (Stork was intimidated by Bisu's APM iirc).
On October 02 2011 19:42 zwala wrote: wat about show matches between BW players who switched to SCII and the new top foreigners ?
The new top foreigners would smash. Even if you mean like Nony and Day[9], they're long out of practice.
Perhaps more useful would be getting Nony (who occasionally says BW was a better game), and Idra (who will not stop fucking talking about how BW is a way better game because SC2 sucks and everyone who beats him sucks too who only beat him because bullshit etc) to have a TSL2 rematch commentated by Artosis (who often implies BW was a better game). That would have a bigger draw of people who weren't already BW fans, and would probably be a lot less one-sided, even if neither of them would be playing at anything like their former level.
On October 02 2011 10:27 sLiMpoweR wrote: cant we just let bw rip its sad what it has become. I miss you bwwwwwww
I sometimes feel this is the predominant attitude, and it makes me want to give up.
in sc2 there is a HUGE difference (i came from there, not trying to compare but showing where i come from) in how bad someone actually is in bronze (which is the same as D) and how bad a player is who is D. for me it seems any D player can be masters in sc2 (i'm masters and sc2 and i get my ass handed to me here).
That has less to do with BW as a game and more to do with the fact ICCUP and Fish are pretty much 99% hardcore people nowadays. If we ever did flood it with enough newbs, the ranks would be devalued to the point of worthlessness, the way no one cares about being Diamond, no one would be impressed by a B rank.
On October 02 2011 19:16 LML wrote: man, all this win7 problems, there is a simple fix: format your PC and install an OS that works fine with BW, even if it's just vista, I never had problems with my BW there.
I think this is a step too far for most people.....
i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
Eh. Not that much. I have 60 APM, and I can play at a D level fairly consistently (though, granted, I'm protoss). A lot of people in D have like 500 APM but don't do anything with it. It's actually kind of funny. I'm plat in SC2, and able to hold D. It's just a matter of getting used to it, D's not all that good once you get used to manual mine and hotkeying your gateways individually (4d5d6d7z8t9p0p I can has macro)
ROFL you really shouldn't be criticizing other players if you only have 60 APM, sure the people who have 300 APM are spamming a bit but in the end they still have more apm than you.
So? I'm still beating them with my sixty, so obviously it's not much help to them.
On October 02 2011 19:42 zwala wrote: wat about show matches between BW players who switched to SCII and the new top foreigners ?
The new top foreigners would smash. Even if you mean like Nony and Day[9], they're long out of practice.
Perhaps more useful would be getting Nony (who occasionally says BW was a better game), and Idra (who will not stop fucking talking about how BW is a way better game because SC2 sucks and everyone who beats him sucks too who only beat him because bullshit etc) to have a TSL2 rematch commentated by Artosis (who often implies BW was a better game). That would have a bigger draw of people who weren't already BW fans, and would probably be a lot less one-sided, even if neither of them would be playing at anything like their former level.
On October 02 2011 10:27 sLiMpoweR wrote: cant we just let bw rip its sad what it has become. I miss you bwwwwwww
I sometimes feel this is the predominant attitude, and it makes me want to give up.
in sc2 there is a HUGE difference (i came from there, not trying to compare but showing where i come from) in how bad someone actually is in bronze (which is the same as D) and how bad a player is who is D. for me it seems any D player can be masters in sc2 (i'm masters and sc2 and i get my ass handed to me here).
That has less to do with BW as a game and more to do with the fact ICCUP and Fish are pretty much 99% hardcore people nowadays. If we ever did flood it with enough newbs, the ranks would be devalued to the point of worthlessness, the way no one cares about being Diamond, no one would be impressed by a B rank.
On October 02 2011 19:16 LML wrote: man, all this win7 problems, there is a simple fix: format your PC and install an OS that works fine with BW, even if it's just vista, I never had problems with my BW there.
I think this is a step too far for most people.....
i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
Eh. Not that much. I have 60 APM, and I can play at a D level fairly consistently (though, granted, I'm protoss). A lot of people in D have like 500 APM but don't do anything with it. It's actually kind of funny. I'm plat in SC2, and able to hold D. It's just a matter of getting used to it, D's not all that good once you get used to manual mine and hotkeying your gateways individually (4d5d6d7z8t9p0p I can has macro)
ROFL you really shouldn't be criticizing other players if you only have 60 APM, sure the people who have 300 APM are spamming a bit but in the end they still have more apm than you.
So? I'm still beating them with my sixty, so obviously it's not much help to them.
if you want to play BW with noobs and dont really care to improve play on game ranger. I was playing on it the other day and i think the majority of players on it would rank around d-. There are a lot of players there that have just started and anyone can host without having a forwarded port. Its also a good place for UMS and BGH.
I bolded the part that intrigues me the most. Link?
Just like hamachi it forces lan. It allows you find opponents for a lot of games.. even ones that are old as shit like AoE 2. Apperntly TTF uses it for heroes of might n magic and Kashu plays fastest on it. http://www.gameranger.com/
Well dunno if this is of any help but there is a BroodWar scene in Cuba and is actually very strong, ill be making a new thread about it soon with some results of the lates events and stuff, maybe some bw enthusiasts could check it out
regarding liquipedia updates, I don't know if this is a liquipedia issue, but I find myself needing more guides than build orders. It's great that I can execute the first 5 minutes flawlessly thanks to liquipedia, but once the checklist is complete I am as lost as if I never read the article. This is because liquipedia often goes something like "add academy when needed", "get 3rd rax before fact if you want more marines", "if your opponent is expanding too much you can add X factories and go for a timing". I don't know when I want more marines, can't realize when my opponent is making himself vulnerable, etc. I don't know when or what to scout for, simple things like at what timing speed finishes for a 2hatch speedlings, how I should deviate to account for that, etcetera. This is why things like stylish' fpvods are so much more helpful than liquipedia even though they are probably just as outdated. But I don't think having a video is necessary, all that info could very well be presented in an article.
i would like to also ask, since i really enjoy bw a lot more than sc2, is there any place i can go to read/watch tips and tricks about bw? for example, how to micro certain units in certain situations, how the ai works in certain situations, building placements, mechanical stuff like that. i would also like to know if theres something like t&t about hotkey&camera placement etc.
On October 03 2011 21:03 Silidons wrote: i would like to also ask, since i really enjoy bw a lot more than sc2, is there any place i can go to read/watch tips and tricks about bw? for example, how to micro certain units in certain situations, how the ai works in certain situations, building placements, mechanical stuff like that. i would also like to know if theres something like t&t about hotkey&camera placement etc.
On October 03 2011 21:03 Silidons wrote: i would like to also ask, since i really enjoy bw a lot more than sc2, is there any place i can go to read/watch tips and tricks about bw? for example, how to micro certain units in certain situations, how the ai works in certain situations, building placements, mechanical stuff like that. i would also like to know if theres something like t&t about hotkey&camera placement etc.
On October 02 2011 19:24 sixfour wrote: i might do something on how to watch pro games if i get a few free hours sometime this week, been a bit hectic the last few days so have missed most of this thread
ok, so i've spent a bit of time doing something on this. i've spoilered it all into sections so it's not a massive wall of text, i'll leave it here if people want to edit/expand, point out any factual inaccuracies (entirely possible, especially when it comes to what to look for in each matchup as i'm not a high level player at all), or just go from wherever. i don't know what other people were thinking of so have tried to cover most bases.
Good question, it can be quite hard for SC2 players, or those new to the RTS scene in general, to pick up what's going on for a number of reasons. Mainly because the pro scene is exclusively based in Korea and there's little done by them to try to market things to a Western audience.
Hmm, no it doesn't. Basically we watch the various pro leagues through people restreaming it here on TL - there's usually at least a couple of people that do so for each event, often more for important matches in the playoffs or late in an individual league. Some people will occasionally dub over their own English commentary, although again this mostly happens for major matches, otherwise we just rely on our knowledge of the game to understand what's going on, at least those of us who don't understand Korean anyway.
You talk of pro leagues. So what am I watching? How does it work?
At present there's two major tournaments in professional BW.
The OSL is the major individual league that takes place roughly three times a year, running over a period of roughly three to four months. The current champion is the protoss player JangBi, defeating Fantasy 3-2 in an epic finals following a fairytale run to the finals, overcoming elimination playoffs on two occasions and beating many of the best players in the world in the process. And Soo.
Your typical OSL consists of offline preliminaries, usually unbroadcasted although OGN will occasionally broadcast selected games from the event. Here (usually) every progamer that hasn't already qualified for a later stage will take part in various groups, with the winner of each moving forward into the next stage. There's usually 24 or so, the exact number varying as player retirements may alter the number of players that need to move on.
These players will then advance into the next stage, where they are joined by those who made the last 16, but not as far as the semi finals, in the previous season. The players who came through the offline qualifiers will typically be paired off against each other, and the winner will play someone from the previous season, the winner of this game would then go through to the round of 16, or effectively the OSL proper.
That said, last season they tried to tinker with the format at this stage, and most people thought it was a terrible idea. Whether they continue with this experiment is unknown at this time.
Eventually we get down to a round of 16. Last year's semi finalists will join those who came through the previous stage and we will see them split into four groups, where everyone plays each other once, with the top two from each group advancing to the quarter finals. It then proceeds as a straight knockout from there.
The Proleague, on the other hand, is a team-based league. Each team will play each other in a best of 7 series over the course of any given round, with six different players going up against each other, and the first team to win 4 games wins. If they get to 3-3, then they can use any player a second time (or someone else entirely) in what is known as an ace match. These typically are must-see games as it's a winner takes all situation, often involving each team's best player, usually resulting in high-level play.
The teams do something slightly different in the middle of the season, where they play two rounds (previously one) in the Winners League format. SC2 fans who watch the GSTL will recognise this immediately, as it is effectively winner stops on, with again the first to get 4 wins taking the match. It's possible for a player to get 4 wins on their own, known as an all-kill, and this is not an uncommon occurrence, even from players you wouldn't expect. The Winners League actually has its own playoffs, although these are somewhat less prestigious than the main end-of season playoffs.
Not exactly. There was another major individual competition known as the MSL, which operates slightly differently to the OSL - the format is more akin to the GSL if you watch that tournament in SC2, however the future of this event is in question at present, with MBCGame likely to switch to kpop-based programming there may be no way to broadcast the next season, and as such it might not happen at all. The current champion is Flash, a Terran widely acknowledged to be the best player in the world at present, beating down the Zerg player ZerO in a one-sided finals 3-0.
There's also something called the STX Masters, which usually ends up being a stage to allow lesser players TV time and can be quite silly, with events such as Hyuk and By.Sun all-killing in the finals. Whether this returns next season is also questionable.
OK, so I'm watching a game. The only Korean I know is playguu. Help me.
I'll look at specific matchups below, but there's certain things you can do to help understand what's happening regardless of who is playing:
- Watch the minimap. Doing this you can keep track of how many bases each player is on, see if there's an early worker moving out for any type of cheese, watch for drops or other general army movement/positioning, etc etc.
- Check which map is being used. If you're watching regularly, you can get a sense of what strategies are being favoured, or otherwise know which race if any is favoured, even knowing whether it's a 2/3/4 player map can be useful.
- Early in the game, watch as to when a player is taking his gas. This can often indicate how quickly a player is expanding, or whether they are going to go with early aggression/tech. For Terran it can also point out whether they are going to use bio or mech against Zerg. Also check for buildings that are somewhat earlier than you expect - again as an example in TvZ, you would expect an engineering bay to be built at a time that allows the Terran to build missile turrets to finish just as mutalisks arrive. If it's a lot earlier, it likely indicates a fast +1 upgrade, perhaps with the idea of an early timing attack. These aren't the easiest things to understand as a new BW viewer, but ask in the LR thread, there'll be someone there that knows.
- Looking at the level of upgrades that units have can be very useful. Seeing two flocks of mutas fly into each other and having the smaller one win might make you think WTF, but if you saw that one of them had just finished +1 carapace you'd get it.
Almost exclusively uses pure mech. Tanks are really good. Games often involve careful positioning of siege lines in order to secure expansions, deny opposition expansions, setting up in areas that give you natural advantages in engagements, etc. Some variations include:
- Early game, you may occasionally see one player proxying one or two barracks in an attempt to end the game very quickly. Similarly, but less cheesy, you may see a player decline to go with a standard barracks or factory into expansion, in order to go for two factories, trying to hit a timing to hit with vultures before a fast-expanding opponent has enough army out to defend. At the other end of non-standard early game play, you may occasionally see a player go for a command centre before barracks, although this is more common in non-mirror matches.
- Starport play can make for interesting matchups. This typically only involved accumulation of large numbers of dropships to allow for better mobility of the mech army, dropping either at expansions to do economic damage, or at tanklines to abuse splash damage, but there has been a tendency in recent months for players to go heavily towards air, specifically large numbers of cloaked wraiths with a possibility of battlecruisers/valkyries in the late game. Some players have used a quick two-port wraith strategy in the past (Leta immediately springs to mind) to try to gain fast aerial superiority and pick off workers/tanks when Terran's anti-air is limited.
- some players (notably Flash, often Fantasy) opt for a very quick armory, often two, in order to gain an upgrade advantage.
There's two main branches that the Terran player can go down, either using bio or mech for their main army. A transition into mech after the midgame is not uncommon. Bio is the most common route that players go down. Zerg play on the other hand is much more standard, with variations prior to getting hive tech either involving all-in play or other various cheese.
- Zerg will normally opt for a hatchery on 12 supply before putting his pool down, and will frequently stick down a third hatchery quickly as well (maybe even before a pool if he scouts/suspects no early pressure), these are important to keep up with the Terran on economy/production. Meanwhile the Terran will usually get down a fairly quick expansion of his own, here you want to check for a factory to indicate mech play, you can usually tell by if he takes gas quickly.
- Unless the Zerg is going for some sort of weird fast lurker play, they will usually look to get to a spire quickly. The idea of this isn't to kill the Terran, more to contain him and keep his army inside his base to allow the Zerg to secure a third base. Some damage can be done but is usually negated by turrets/marines, and mutalisks will become ineffective once vessels are out as irradiate owns the hell out of stacked mutas. Terran will usually still keep making vessels throughout the game, as irradiate will one shot defilers and severely weaken ultralisks. Also watch for Terran players to use the "eraser" trick, where science vessels will irradiate each other and then move over a mineral line, killing many drones.
- Zerg then usually needs to get to hive quickly in order to not simply die to a push with bio/vessels and maybe tanks. They will usually have lurkers by this stage, but they can be ineffective once Terran has siege tanks which outrange them and vessels for detection. Do watch for stop lurkers, a trick where the Zerg has them not attack and instead waits for numbers of marines to be into range, resulting in much more effective damage.
- Once at hive, the Zerg will normally get a defiler mound, this is essential for protecting lurkers with dark swarm, and also for plague which with crackling/lurkers can rip through bio. They may occasionally go for a greater spire for guardians, although this is dependent on keeping a lot of your initial mutas alive and map/opponent dependent. Ultras are also a possibility but again it is situation dependent. If the Terran has gone mech, or transitioned into it, the Zerg may consider making queens in order to spawn broodlings and break tank lines, leaving his ground army with an advantage to clean up what remains. The Terran will be looking to deny additional bases, either with drop play or simply pushing with the main army, or drop to pick off key tech structures. If the Terran can keep up on base count he will usually be at an advantage.
Like TvT, bio is ineffective in this matchup barring specific cheese strategies such as the deep six. Hence you mostly see mech. Protoss has more varied options of tech, although some maps will favour some over others.
- Early game, proxy barracks/gateways are sometimes seen, but you will normally just see standard fairly safe play. Terran has the option of going for a fast expansion just off a barracks (or even just 14cc), or may make a factory first - either way they will mainly be looking to expand fairly early. 1 base play is also fairly rare from Protoss, and will frequently expand immediately or off of 1 gateway.
- Protoss will usually look to get early dragoon range and try to pressure a Terran's expansion. Terran normally responds by making a bunker, repairing it as needed, just to hold until siege mode finishes where they can outrange goons and force a retreat. If the Protoss can snipe the first tank, which is difficult against competent players, that usually allows them to gain a large advantage, perhaps game ending if the Terran makes further mistakes.
- Terran will usually then try to increase factory count, get mines to gain map control while Protoss lacks detection and maybe look to harass probes with vultures. Protoss will frequently wall off a third base with pylons to limit this, until he gets a forge (rarely made before they are on three bases) and can place a cannon(s) to ward them off.
- Protoss has a few different tech paths that they can go down. They will usually go towards some form of stargate play - a clue as to which one is building timings, a stargate before they have a templar archives usually indicates carriers (also check the cyber core, if it is spinning midgame after goon range is done, then carriers normally follow), if the stargate/archives are going down at the same time then expect arbiters. Reaver play is occasionally used, normally in a harassing function with drop play or to attack misplaced tanks. The citadel tech route is somewhat more frequent, speed zealots and storms are both useful in countering typical Terran tactics.
- Watch for a Protoss that has gone arbiters to use recall, either into the main to try to pick off key structures (armories are good, depots also a good option to supply block the Terran), or to new bases aiming to prevent mining. They will also often utilise shuttle play, either for reaver/storm drops on mineral lines, or for "zealot bombs", dropping them on sieged tanks causing friendly splash damage. If arbiters are the unit of choice, expect the Terran to make science vessels, to EMP the arbiters and for mobile detection. Stasis is also a critical spell, good use of it can take much of the Terran army out of commission, allowing you to gain an army advantage and then clear up the stasised units afterwards. Key targets are tanks and vessels.
Unfortunately, ZvZ is probably the most predictable matchup - the nature of it means that players will normally go straight to spire as other options are ineffective.
- Unless there's a 4/5 pool, the Zerg will go for one of a 9/overpool, 12 pool or 12 hatchery. While they don't technically hard counter each other, there is a distinct 12h>12p>9p>12h cycle where one player has the advantage either because of a better economy, or in the case of a 9 pool vs 12 hatch, they can have units reach the opposition base before they can defend, perhaps forcing a cancel of the natural which negates any possible economic advantage.
- If the game lasts longer than 5 minutes we will get to a situation where both players will head towards a spire. There's a possibility to hit a timing before mutalisks are out where you can overrun the opposition with superior zergling numbers, but this usually requires hiding some of them, as no anti-air means you will typically have overlords seeing everything the opponent is doing, including ling/drone production numbers.
- If there is a large disparity in spire build timing due to differing build orders/previous harassment, then you may see the player with the later spire throw up an evolution chamber in order to defend with spore colonies.
- Otherwise it usually comes down to muta/scourge micro and/or numbers. Be sure to watch for upgrades which can make a lot of difference. Players may also try to runby lings occasionally to pick off drones or buildings if possible to try to swing a game.
- Occasionally hive tech happens, which is amazing. But it's pretty rare unfortunately.
In my opinion one of the more interesting matchups, probably because I started out as Zerg before I switched to Protoss, ZvP has a lot of possibilities and swings a lot in terms of which race has an advantage at the pro level. Outside of cheese, there's a fairly common early game path, but once at the midgame, many different branches can be followed.
- Protoss will almost always look to forge fast-expand. How exactly they do this varies based on the map and scouting, they may go straight up for a nexus, or stick down 1 or possibly 2 cannons if there are a lot of early zerglings. Meanwhile, the Zerg will usually 9 pool or overpool, mainly because the Protoss scouts very quickly in this matchup and can possibly deny the expansion with his scouting probe. A 12 hatch opening is feasible, but mostly on 4 player maps. Once the Zerg has his natural, they will also look to take a third hatchery, often in what appears to be an unusual location.
- Common Protoss follow-ups involve production of a fast Stargate, in order to produce corsairs. This is for scouting purposes and to gain some level of air superiority, and if possible to pick off scouting overlords or ovies in general. We then frequently see either a transition into reaver play, using shuttles to drop and harass, or DT usage as popularised by Bisu, using the sairs to remove Zerg's detection and then the DT's to cause massive damage. A templar archives normally shows up at some point, as storm is a very important spell in this matchup, ripping through hydralisks and damaging burrowed lurkers.
- The Zerg meanwhile has the option of going for mutalisks (they will normally get a spire regardless, if just for scourge to deny complete air superiority to corsairs, or, if playing Best, to kill them outright), mainly to snipe templar and probes, or heavy hydra/lurker play. Most Zerg players will typically have a lot of hatcheries by the midgame, allowing for production of mass hydras which can walk through a Protoss natural, even if there are large amounts of cannons, unless the Protoss has storms available quickly, or can defend with reavers.
- Watch for the forge spinning early in the matchup. +1 attack is a very important upgrade, as it allows for zealots to kill zerglings in two shots as opposed to three. If a citadel is thrown down, it is possible that the Protoss is going for a +1 speedlot timing with the intention of disrupting the Zerg's third base. Also, as in PvT, drop play from the Protoss can be devastating, and there is more possibility of later game DT harass, as they one-shot Zerg workers, allowing for the possibility of taking out an entire mineral line if the Zerg is not paying attention.
Probably the most interesting mirror matchup, there's a fair bit of possible variation in what people can try. There's cheese options, standard macro play, and variety in the midgame. Watching a very good PvP player (say Horang2 or Bisu) can be surprisingly entertaining.
- There's some cheese possibilities. A 2-gate opening, although probably not technically cheese, is intended to apply early damage and will put a player well behind if it doesn't. You can also rush to DT's, but again it needs to be concealed somewhat so the opponent doesn't just quickly throw down a robo and observatory (or possibly a forge/cannons), negating the rush. Anything more than 2 gate goons is usually also considered cheese.
- Otherwise a player will typically go 1 gate into core, making some zealots so that you don't just die, and then a goon to clear out any probes that may still be alive.
- Players will then often tech to a robotics facility, allowing for observers to be produced, and then to transition to reavers, which are probably the most common choice in this matchup.
- Balancing between teching, expanding and army production is somewhat tricky - expand/tech too soon and you have your opponent walking in and killing you. It's not like SC2 whereby everything is just 1 base play, but taking an expansion too early is inherently risky.
- Typically a midgame will consist of large goon numbers with zealot and shuttle/reaver support, players will also typically get a templar archives and have storms/archons involved, also opening up the possibility of late game DT harass. It mostly results in wins via micro, superior positioning, or better upgrades/sheer numbers. Watching two players with good reaver micro face off is very pretty, loading and unloading them to try to avoid damage completely.
PICK A TEAM. It helps a ton, especially with proleague, to get your fanboy tendencies out. Go for one which has your favourite players, people from the race you play/like to watch, whatever. It's always more exciting to have something to lean towards in a game where you'd otherwise not have a vested interest.
Currently we have:
SKT1 - heavy hitting powerhouse, formerly home to Terran giants Boxer and iloveoov, now home to proleague powerhouse and OSL failure Bisu, Terran mech specialist Fantasy, terrible corsair controller Best and an up and coming Zerg lineup.
KT Rolster - home of the current best Terran player and probably best overall player Flash, they also have the solid Protoss player Stats, now with reduced chin, formally had Yellow in their numbers and currently have Reach, hive tech expert Action and interesting zerg up and comers Crazy-Hydra and Perfective.
CJ Entus - Idra's old stomping ground, CJ benefited last season from soaking up a large number of now-defunct Sparkyz lineup, including Leta and Horang2 - the latter, along with Snow and Movie gives them arguably the most formidable Protoss lineup in the league. Hydra is among the top Zergs in the world today and this season they also see the return of former OSL champ Effort.
Woongjin Stars - The acquisition of Light last season, with the best TvZ in the game after Flash, has turned them into genuine contenders. With Zero/Soulkey they possess a creative 1-2 Zerg powerhouse, and free, when not slumping, is an extremely dangerous Protoss, famous for recalling scouts against Fantasy and being nuked by Hiya.
Samsung Khan - Khan have a good mix of experienced veterans, including carrier specialist Stork and storm specialist and newest OSL champion Jangbi, and in Reality have an up and coming Terran who can cause damage. Grape and Brave are potentially solid Protoss options, but with the loss of great, they look horribly weak as far as Zerg goes.
STX Soul - What's happening with them is weird, as they've lost Kal to ACE and put their entire roster available for trade, although we've not seen any takers. Calm, hero, hyvaa and Modesty give for interesting Zerg options, Bogus has been knocking on the door to be let into the elite Terran reckoning for a while now, and Shuttle on his day can be solid from a Protoss standpoint.
Air Force ACE - Probably uniquely anywhere, ACE allows progamers to do their military service while not giving up active play. Traditionally they've done terrible, but with the number of teams being reduced they've actually picked up better and better players who seem to do better than they had been doing previously, with Kal, great and maybe Pure also moving this season, adding to ceremony specialist firebathero, Iris and others.
As Yet Unnamed Eighth Team - The scene's in a state of flux right now, and it's unlikely that the other teams from last year (WeMade Fox, Hwaseung Oz and MBCGame Hero) are returning. What may happen is that a dream team of their collective players (which'd look something like ultramegaelite zerg Jaedong, high level Terrans in Sea/Baby, as well as other good players like Roro, Mind, Wooki, Shine, Killer and Hiya) will be formed. Some of them may go into free agency and be picked up by other teams, so exactly what'll happen is as yet unknown, but it'd create for great bandwagon jumping opportunities.
Nice guide chef however about the kt rolster section , you forgot to mention hoejja he's really not that spotted or thank a lot but without him in the finals we would have lost that game . He really deserves the recognition .
Awesome guide Sixfour (yeah, when i saw the Valk icon i thought it was Chef for a second too...)
One thing that might be worth adding to the ZvZ section is some description of micro in that matchup. I started to enjoy ZvZ a lot more when i started really paying attention to how pro's control their units. Two things in particular to look out for.
Zergling Concaves - The shape of a zergling fight can be more important than the numbers of zerglings, especially when one player is defending.
Scourge "Forcing" - Pro's make a lot of scourge, even though they don't manage to hit with them very often. In many Muta/Scourge v Muta/Scourge engagements, the purpose of the scourge isn't to kill mutas, but to control their movement. If you can force your opponent's muta flock to turn away, you can chase them with your mutas and land moving shots on them from behind. Even if no scourge connect, you will still inflict a lot of damage.
On October 04 2011 00:41 LML wrote: valk icon? I am almost sure that's an infested terran;O
If any1 has some replays with great actions worthy to be added into a small movie (barely more than 3minutes) please send them to me via PM, thanks.
What about from VODs? I saw some pretty cool stuff from the Ribbon Revival that may be helpful for you. Sadly, I didn't mark down the times so I'll revisit the VODs when I get a chance to see where they were.
I think a low level clans should become more common they encorage people to play and helps them develop by playing with others of the same skill level as them. There really isnt any around and many people give up due to that fact. Are there any plans for one or not?
On October 04 2011 00:41 LML wrote: valk icon? I am almost sure that's an infested terran;O
If any1 has some replays with great actions worthy to be added into a small movie (barely more than 3minutes) please send them to me via PM, thanks.
What about from VODs? I saw some pretty cool stuff from the Ribbon Revival that may be helpful for you. Sadly, I didn't mark down the times so I'll revisit the VODs when I get a chance to see where they were.
I've already downloaded the replays from the Ribbon Revival and also watched some of the games on stream, if you have recommendations go ahead and tell me, would save me quite some time;)
On October 03 2011 21:03 Silidons wrote: i would like to also ask, since i really enjoy bw a lot more than sc2, is there any place i can go to read/watch tips and tricks about bw? for example, how to micro certain units in certain situations, how the ai works in certain situations, building placements, mechanical stuff like that. i would also like to know if theres something like t&t about hotkey&camera placement etc.
On October 03 2011 21:03 Silidons wrote: i would like to also ask, since i really enjoy bw a lot more than sc2, is there any place i can go to read/watch tips and tricks about bw? for example, how to micro certain units in certain situations, how the ai works in certain situations, building placements, mechanical stuff like that. i would also like to know if theres something like t&t about hotkey&camera placement etc.
Low level clans sound amazing. Im not very good, but before i went travelling i was C high (now maybe d+, just getting started again). Would love to practice with some even bigger noobs if anyone is interrested? I am on GMT-1 so any european are welcome. PM !
EDIT: Should we make another thread? If we can get 5 players willing to run a noobclan and maybe 5 players in each we could have something going on. Im horrible, but i have payed my dues and knows something about the game, for all races..
As much as I like Broodwar, let foreign broodwar die.
Legendary and hard RTS'es will only be cult classics, and won't be mainstream.
People nowadays prefer easier games to fulfill their ego. Look at Battle net 2.0 from SC2 not showing the player's losses when an idiot can calculate it by subtracting total games play and total games won. Then they took it further by removing your number of games play+won entirely.
Rainbow Six series sucked since Raven Shield, replacing it with a more action-packed Vegas
Resident evil series have also gone to shit since 4, turning from a puzzle solving horror into a mainstream shoot'em up.
How modern game compnaies cater to newbies is just sickening.
I have lost faith in modern games and the modern gaming community in general. RIP RTS and let's welcome our MOBA and FPS overlords.
On October 04 2011 04:27 ppshchik wrote: As much as I like Broodwar, let foreign broodwar die.
Legendary and hard RTS'es will only be cult classics, and won't be mainstream.
People nowadays prefer easier games to fulfill their ego. Look at Battle net 2.0 from SC2 not showing the player's losses when an idiot can calculate it by subtracting total games play and total games won. Then they took it further by removing your number of games play+won entirely.
Rainbow Six series sucked since Raven Shield, replacing it with a more action-packed Vegas
Resident evil series have also gone to shit since 4, turning from a puzzle solving horror into a mainstream shoot'em up.
How modern game compnaies cater to newbies is just sickening.
I have lost faith in modern games and the modern gaming community in general. RIP RTS and let's welcome our MOBA and FPS overlords.
You should never be allowed to post in the BW forum again, but I hate people with you're type of attitude, get lost.
I'm not even dissing Broodwar, I'm saying that a high skill capped game with low graphics will never be mainstream, but a cult classic. Broodwar is only observable at the highest level of mechanics from A-Teamers and B-teamers. Watching amateurs play in Broodwar puts me to sleep.
BW not being mainstream is not even a negative thing. BW fanbase, despite being small, is one of the most loyal fanbase / cult following I've ever seen. It's like a fuzzy, warm family instead of a crowded street.
PS: If someone is interested in Broodwar, he/she will eventually try to watch vods and learn about it. Forcefeeding them won't do any good.
your attitude is not exactly hindering modern games from going down the path of dumbness bw is gonna become a cult classic, so might as well make it elitist right? I'd better just wait till i get my desktop back to play sc2, since if I need help to play bw I clearly don't deserve it
On October 04 2011 04:40 ppshchik wrote: I'm not even dissing Broodwar, I'm saying that a high skill capped game with low graphics will never be mainstream, but a cult classic. Broodwar is only observable at the highest level of mechanics from A-Teamers and B-teamers. Watching amateurs play in Broodwar puts me to sleep.
BW not being mainstream is not even a negative thing. BW fanbase, despite being small, is one of the most loyal fanbase / cult following I've ever seen. It's like a fuzzy, warm family instead of a crowded street.
PS: If someone is interested in Broodwar, he/she will eventually try to watch vods and learn about it. Forcefeeding them won't do any good.
No, but I don't understand why you would bother posting with that defeatist attitude. We're obviously not expecting that BW will become as prominent as ice hockey. But we want it to be more prominent then it is and I think that can happen. There is a bit of cross-pollination from the SC2 scene so it would make sense to find ways to welcome them in. Furthermore a community that doesn't bother to help new recruits is one that will eventually stifle.
Regarding clans for lower skilled players, I absolutely agree. But from being kinda involved in sGs, part of the problem is maintaining momentum. Particularly as our best activity was on skype which made us look very inactive as far as Team Liquid forums was concerned. I don't know how that can be solved. I do agree with an earlier poster that having as separate op sGs on iCCup was probably a mistake- our skype was sufficient for that. op Teamliquid should probably remain the goto channel. I don't know if there are even enough players to sustain it, but it would almost be better to have 2 clans to form a sort of rivalry. But if there's only 10 per side, then it's probably not sustainable.
On October 04 2011 04:40 ppshchik wrote: I'm not even dissing Broodwar, I'm saying that a high skill capped game with low graphics will never be mainstream, but a cult classic. Broodwar is only observable at the highest level of mechanics from A-Teamers and B-teamers. Watching amateurs play in Broodwar puts me to sleep.
BW not being mainstream is not even a negative thing. BW fanbase, despite being small, is one of the most loyal fanbase / cult following I've ever seen. It's like a fuzzy, warm family instead of a crowded street.
PS: If someone is interested in Broodwar, he/she will eventually try to watch vods and learn about it. Forcefeeding them won't do any good.
I'm not convinced you have read the thread thoroughly and understand its intention.
Perhaps the biggest goal here is doing everything we can to make BW accessible and more enjoyable for those that are new to it. Surely you can't be against basic things like having updated guides, videos explaining concepts like various kinds of micro, simple guides for how to watch and enjoy BW, or a supportive clan to help new players out?
As much as I like Broodwar, let foreign broodwar die.
Legendary and hard RTS'es will only be cult classics, and won't be mainstream.
I see alot of people say this. Why, exactly, do you want foreign BW to die? I can't think of anything that would be bad about still having a supportive and vibrant foreign scene.
What we still need: -People willing to help create an instruction series of VOD's (doesn't have to be everything, if your willing to do say just a ZvT tutorial, or just a protoss micro, or even just a marine micro v lurker video we would love your help) -People willing to help make/complete a guide on watching BW -More Streamers! -Anybody that is willing to help with other projects is ALWAYS appreciated
On October 05 2011 06:13 puppykiller wrote: As I said on page one I stream. Is there anything you want me to do on my stream or something?
hmm, some singing wouldn't hurt. Disney songs preferably, but open to other choices.
Haha lol, this sounds familiar.
Basically, the consensus is just trying to generally be entertaining and/or informative. Just talking and explaining what your doing, seems to be significantly more popular and enjoyable for viewers than just watching a streamer who is listening to music or what have you.
why? fairly sure that splitting stuff off to all sorts of other places isn't going to help anything
Organization.
If done on TL it requires of the creating on many threads for each category that we want to work on, which easily become jumble and clutters up the BW general section. By having an offsite website we can have all the threads we need organized into neat categories and not clutter up TL.
On October 05 2011 06:13 puppykiller wrote: As I said on page one I stream. Is there anything you want me to do on my stream or something?
hmm, some singing wouldn't hurt. Disney songs preferably, but open to other choices.
Haha lol, this sounds familiar.
Basically, the consensus is just trying to generally be entertaining and/or informative. Just talking and explaining what your doing, seems to be significantly more popular and enjoyable for viewers than just watching a streamer who is listening to music or what have you.
-People willing to help make/complete a guide on watching BW
er.....
Intersted in helping? Head here
why? fairly sure that splitting stuff off to all sorts of other places isn't going to help anything
Organization.
If done on TL it requires of the creating on many threads for each category that we want to work on, which easily become jumble and clutters up the BW general section. By having an offsite website we can have all the threads we need organized into neat categories and not clutter up TL.
After reading this thread, i accessed to iccup and search the sGs team page. I really want to join the team to practice with others. "jas-anz" is my ID on iccup, so I hope the leader of the team will accept me to join team? thanks!!
On October 05 2011 07:47 zerg_practice wrote: After reading this thread, i accessed to iccup and search the sGs team page. I really want to join the team to practice with others. "jas-anz" is my ID on iccup, so I hope the leader of the team will accept me to join team? thanks!!
I see your request. We only accept sGs tagged account names though. If you make a new account real quick with the sGs tag (for example, sGs.jas-anz) and join with that account I'll be happy to add you!
On October 04 2011 07:59 L_Master wrote: What we still need: -People willing to help create an instruction series of VOD's (doesn't have to be everything, if your willing to do say just a ZvT tutorial, or just a protoss micro, or even just a marine micro v lurker video we would love your help)
I feel like I would love to do something like this but i don't think i'm good enough (D-D+ level here)
If I may put this out there. Perhaps someone with some computer expertise could improve BW compatibility with today's machines. Like debug some interface issues that usually need various 3rd party mods to fix and create a clean concise package for quick and easy installation and play.
Another thing to consider is improving the quality of the sprites. BW has a distinct look to it, a look that is not helped by todays monitors and resolutions. I am not saying SC2 3D, that would be bad IMO considering how the AI works, but perhaps improving the quality and resolution of the in-game sprites to be more visually appealing outsiders, while still retaining that classic look and feel. I was thinking along the lines of taking a Zealot sprite for example, then perhaps doubling the pixel count with the extra pixels detailing and highlighting the original design.
I honestly think this is going to be a big hurdle for expansion that needs to (in some form) be addressed. What a 10 year BW vet sees and experiences, may not be what a potential newcomer sees and experiences, even if they are looking at the same game.
As someone who loves BW but currently plays and watches much more SC2, I would say the #1 thing would be having English casts/replays of Proleague matches readily available and easily accessible. I love watching BW, but watching it with Korean commentating gets old after a few matches because I don't understand the language.
Also, more exposure for Sayle. I love watching the dude play and cast. He's the only BW caster on TL that I watch, and I almost always choose him over Sc2 casters (and I watched him during breaks of MLG).
On October 05 2011 07:47 zerg_practice wrote: After reading this thread, i accessed to iccup and search the sGs team page. I really want to join the team to practice with others. "jas-anz" is my ID on iccup, so I hope the leader of the team will accept me to join team? thanks!!
I see your request. We only accept sGs tagged account names though. If you make a new account real quick with the sGs tag (for example, sGs.jas-anz) and join with that account I'll be happy to add you!
Thanks! I created a new account on iccup with tag "sGs" and it is "sGs.chinnie". So pleased check it and accept my request. Thank you very much!!
I was sad when sc2 took over teamliquid. But now reading the write ups and seeing the community, I guess the current niche/cult status of bw is not so bad. Before all the fancy tournaments and plethora of foreign castors, was a tiny website devoted to a game that the mainstream public has long beaten and forgotten. It was a meeting place for watching grainy video streamed from a tv to a computer to yet another computer from a foreign land in the middle of night. Where a few hundreds log on to watch two nerds battle it out.
The frustration of the lag (powerpoint games!) and the excitement of the LR. Scbw start to get big and as SC2's release approached, many castors used scbw as a training ground to refine their broadcast skills. People started showing up for release info and when it was released, it became the mecca for games/forums/strategy discussions. For this I am happy that teamliquid is getting its due and the owners get the monetary compensation they deserved.
Somewhere along the way we lost our cult status as we tried to become mainstream. Jangbi's OSL reminded us who were were. We are nerds watching a game on our laptops in the dead of our night, our quick high pitched squeal of delight woke our roommates/parents and they questioned our (wo)manhood. SCBW will not get you girls, you cannot take dates to MLG nor can you convince them to play it. Your bed is your Anaheim convention center, photoshopped hwasin is your Lindsay. There is no barcraft as the next closest bw fan is across state lines. You do not brag about your addiction to everyone you meet, but when you find someone that shares your hobby...that connection is golden. SCBW is not where the cool kids hangout, it never was.
SCBW is you, your computer, and your bagel bites that is still in your microwave because the game started sooner and you are watching kpop during the commercials. Quick poll: how many cried when Nestea won the GSL or when Huk won Dreamhack? Now how many people cried when....insert all OSL/MSL/Proleague finals (and even games). The score will be 0 to too many to count.
Foreign SCBW does not need to be strengthened, it is a cult and cults by nature are unpredicatable and makes no sense to those outside of it. I enjoy SC2 and buy passes and watch tons of streams and tourneys. I do not enjoy SCBW, it is part of me.
On October 05 2011 10:22 stork4ever wrote: I was sad when sc2 took over teamliquid. But now reading the write ups and seeing the community, I guess the current niche/cult status of bw is not so bad. Before all the fancy tournaments and plethora of foreign castors, was a tiny website devoted to a game that the mainstream public has long beaten and forgotten. It was a meeting place for watching grainy video streamed from a tv to a computer to yet another computer from a foreign land in the middle of night. Where a few hundreds log on to watch two nerds battle it out.
The frustration of the lag (powerpoint games!) and the excitement of the LR. Scbw start to get big and as SC2's release approached, many castors used scbw as a training ground to refine their broadcast skills. People started showing up for release info and when it was released, it became the mecca for games/forums/strategy discussions. For this I am happy that teamliquid is getting its due and the owners get the monetary compensation they deserved.
Somewhere along the way we lost our cult status as we tried to become mainstream. Jangbi's OSL reminded us who were were. We are nerds watching a game on our laptops in the dead of our night, our quick high pitched squeal of delight woke our roommates/parents and they questioned our (wo)manhood. SCBW will not get you girls, you cannot take dates to MLG nor can you convince them to play it. Your bed is your Anaheim convention center, photoshopped hwasin is your Lindsay. There is no barcraft as the next closest bw fan is across state lines. You do not brag about your addiction to everyone you meet, but when you find someone that shares your hobby...that connection is golden. SCBW is not where the cool kids hangout, it never was.
SCBW is you, your computer, and your bagel bites that is still in your microwave because the game started sooner and you are watching kpop during the commercials. Quick poll: how many cried when Nestea won the GSL or when Huk won Dreamhack? Now how many people cried when....insert all OSL/MSL/Proleague finals (and even games). The score will be 0 to too many to count.
Foreign SCBW does not need to be strengthened, it is a cult and cults by nature are unpredicatable and makes no sense to those outside of it. I enjoy SC2 and buy passes and watch tons of streams and tourneys. I do not enjoy SCBW, it is part of me.
hmmm well i still think its a viable goal to help others who come from sc2 that are interested in BW but intimidated have an easier transition into the game.
On October 05 2011 09:24 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: If I may put this out there. Perhaps someone with some computer expertise could improve BW compatibility with today's machines. Like debug some interface issues that usually need various 3rd party mods to fix and create a clean concise package for quick and easy installation and play.
Another thing to consider is improving the quality of the sprites. BW has a distinct look to it, a look that is not helped by todays monitors and resolutions. I am not saying SC2 3D, that would be bad IMO considering how the AI works, but perhaps improving the quality and resolution of the in-game sprites to be more visually appealing outsiders, while still retaining that classic look and feel. I was thinking along the lines of taking a Zealot sprite for example, then perhaps doubling the pixel count with the extra pixels detailing and highlighting the original design.
I honestly think this is going to be a big hurdle for expansion that needs to (in some form) be addressed. What a 10 year BW vet sees and experiences, may not be what a potential newcomer sees and experiences, even if they are looking at the same game.
I've actually been thinking about this for a while. Something like Brood War 2. Like how valve is making DOTA 2. it'd be fucking awesome if someone made it. Everyone would consider the idea insane, considering the game still exists and SC2 is released, but idunno ,its just a cool idea in my head :3
A HD remake like Capcom has been doing with older Street Fighter games would be nice, but I don't think Blizzard actually wants people playing BW anymore.
On October 05 2011 09:24 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: If I may put this out there. Perhaps someone with some computer expertise could improve BW compatibility with today's machines. Like debug some interface issues that usually need various 3rd party mods to fix and create a clean concise package for quick and easy installation and play.
Another thing to consider is improving the quality of the sprites. BW has a distinct look to it, a look that is not helped by todays monitors and resolutions. I am not saying SC2 3D, that would be bad IMO considering how the AI works, but perhaps improving the quality and resolution of the in-game sprites to be more visually appealing outsiders, while still retaining that classic look and feel. I was thinking along the lines of taking a Zealot sprite for example, then perhaps doubling the pixel count with the extra pixels detailing and highlighting the original design.
I honestly think this is going to be a big hurdle for expansion that needs to (in some form) be addressed. What a 10 year BW vet sees and experiences, may not be what a potential newcomer sees and experiences, even if they are looking at the same game.
I've actually been thinking about this for a while. Something like Brood War 2. Like how valve is making DOTA 2. it'd be fucking awesome if someone made it. Everyone would consider the idea insane, considering the game still exists and SC2 is released, but idunno ,its just a cool idea in my head :3
A HD remake like Capcom has been doing with older Street Fighter games would be nice, but I don't think Blizzard actually wants people playing BW anymore.
Blizzard certainly won't do it, they are fully invested in the infrastructure of SC2. But I think this is something the community could do. I mean look at all the third party programs being developed for SC2 or third party support for games like Counter Strike or Elder Scrolls. That is a lot of coding skill being devoted to those games and that is not coming from the developer itself.
Also, this would be in essence a patch to BW, it wouldn't replace the game, but instead update it. Everything else remains the same (for better or worse), but its just a crisper, cleaner and more stable experience.
On October 05 2011 09:24 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: If I may put this out there. Perhaps someone with some computer expertise could improve BW compatibility with today's machines. Like debug some interface issues that usually need various 3rd party mods to fix and create a clean concise package for quick and easy installation and play.
Another thing to consider is improving the quality of the sprites. BW has a distinct look to it, a look that is not helped by todays monitors and resolutions. I am not saying SC2 3D, that would be bad IMO considering how the AI works, but perhaps improving the quality and resolution of the in-game sprites to be more visually appealing outsiders, while still retaining that classic look and feel. I was thinking along the lines of taking a Zealot sprite for example, then perhaps doubling the pixel count with the extra pixels detailing and highlighting the original design.
I honestly think this is going to be a big hurdle for expansion that needs to (in some form) be addressed. What a 10 year BW vet sees and experiences, may not be what a potential newcomer sees and experiences, even if they are looking at the same game.
I've actually been thinking about this for a while. Something like Brood War 2. Like how valve is making DOTA 2. it'd be fucking awesome if someone made it. Everyone would consider the idea insane, considering the game still exists and SC2 is released, but idunno ,its just a cool idea in my head :3
A HD remake like Capcom has been doing with older Street Fighter games would be nice, but I don't think Blizzard actually wants people playing BW anymore.
Blizzard certainly won't do it, they are fully invested in the infrastructure of SC2. But I think this is something the community could do. I mean look at all the third party programs being developed for SC2 or third party support for games like Counter Strike or Elder Scrolls. That is a lot of coding skill being devoted to those games and that is not coming from the developer itself.
Also, this would be in essence a patch to BW, it wouldn't replace the game, but instead update it. Everything else remains the same (for better or worse), but its just a crisper, cleaner and more stable experience.
Personally I think it would be really really awesome if they had everything SC2 has mechanic wise (MBS, more units in a control group, etc etc) but with everything else being exactly like BW (units/cost/maps/buildings etc). They have SC2BW custom map right now but I don't really like it at all...things don't seem right on it, they even increased the size of everything so it feels like you're playing on the hella small res too.
The day I can play BW on 1920x1200 is the day I can die happily xD
On October 05 2011 09:24 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: If I may put this out there. Perhaps someone with some computer expertise could improve BW compatibility with today's machines. Like debug some interface issues that usually need various 3rd party mods to fix and create a clean concise package for quick and easy installation and play.
Another thing to consider is improving the quality of the sprites. BW has a distinct look to it, a look that is not helped by todays monitors and resolutions. I am not saying SC2 3D, that would be bad IMO considering how the AI works, but perhaps improving the quality and resolution of the in-game sprites to be more visually appealing outsiders, while still retaining that classic look and feel. I was thinking along the lines of taking a Zealot sprite for example, then perhaps doubling the pixel count with the extra pixels detailing and highlighting the original design.
I honestly think this is going to be a big hurdle for expansion that needs to (in some form) be addressed. What a 10 year BW vet sees and experiences, may not be what a potential newcomer sees and experiences, even if they are looking at the same game.
I've actually been thinking about this for a while. Something like Brood War 2. Like how valve is making DOTA 2. it'd be fucking awesome if someone made it. Everyone would consider the idea insane, considering the game still exists and SC2 is released, but idunno ,its just a cool idea in my head :3
A HD remake like Capcom has been doing with older Street Fighter games would be nice, but I don't think Blizzard actually wants people playing BW anymore.
Blizzard certainly won't do it, they are fully invested in the infrastructure of SC2. But I think this is something the community could do. I mean look at all the third party programs being developed for SC2 or third party support for games like Counter Strike or Elder Scrolls. That is a lot of coding skill being devoted to those games and that is not coming from the developer itself.
Also, this would be in essence a patch to BW, it wouldn't replace the game, but instead update it. Everything else remains the same (for better or worse), but its just a crisper, cleaner and more stable experience.
Personally I think it would be really really awesome if they had everything SC2 has mechanic wise (MBS, more units in a control group, etc etc) but with everything else being exactly like BW (units/cost/maps/buildings etc). They have SC2BW custom map right now but I don't really like it at all...things don't seem right on it, they even increased the size of everything so it feels like you're playing on the hella small res too.
The day I can play BW on 1920x1200 is the day I can die happily xD
This wouldn't work, and the reason is the same why some people believe that you need a buggy engine to get a good game (the "mbs killed ESPORTS" crowd). For example, marines appear to have a lot more DPS in sc2bw, their stats being the same, because despite all the effort the sc2bw guys put into mimicking stupid pathfinding, it's still too efficient; or stuff like brood war mutas are too strong when you can have 30 of them in a control group.
I have a big project planned for the upcoming proleague season. I'm not going to announce the details until I see roughly what the proleague schedule looks like, but it should solve all these complaints of not enough English commentaries ;p
On October 05 2011 09:24 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: If I may put this out there. Perhaps someone with some computer expertise could improve BW compatibility with today's machines. Like debug some interface issues that usually need various 3rd party mods to fix and create a clean concise package for quick and easy installation and play.
Another thing to consider is improving the quality of the sprites. BW has a distinct look to it, a look that is not helped by todays monitors and resolutions. I am not saying SC2 3D, that would be bad IMO considering how the AI works, but perhaps improving the quality and resolution of the in-game sprites to be more visually appealing outsiders, while still retaining that classic look and feel. I was thinking along the lines of taking a Zealot sprite for example, then perhaps doubling the pixel count with the extra pixels detailing and highlighting the original design.
I honestly think this is going to be a big hurdle for expansion that needs to (in some form) be addressed. What a 10 year BW vet sees and experiences, may not be what a potential newcomer sees and experiences, even if they are looking at the same game.
I've actually been thinking about this for a while. Something like Brood War 2. Like how valve is making DOTA 2. it'd be fucking awesome if someone made it. Everyone would consider the idea insane, considering the game still exists and SC2 is released, but idunno ,its just a cool idea in my head :3
A HD remake like Capcom has been doing with older Street Fighter games would be nice, but I don't think Blizzard actually wants people playing BW anymore.
Blizzard certainly won't do it, they are fully invested in the infrastructure of SC2. But I think this is something the community could do. I mean look at all the third party programs being developed for SC2 or third party support for games like Counter Strike or Elder Scrolls. That is a lot of coding skill being devoted to those games and that is not coming from the developer itself.
Also, this would be in essence a patch to BW, it wouldn't replace the game, but instead update it. Everything else remains the same (for better or worse), but its just a crisper, cleaner and more stable experience.
Personally I think it would be really really awesome if they had everything SC2 has mechanic wise (MBS, more units in a control group, etc etc) but with everything else being exactly like BW (units/cost/maps/buildings etc). They have SC2BW custom map right now but I don't really like it at all...things don't seem right on it, they even increased the size of everything so it feels like you're playing on the hella small res too.
The day I can play BW on 1920x1200 is the day I can die happily xD
I think the reverse would be way more useful as a "bridge": A mod where it was SC2 with BW mechanics enforced. And then people who found that fun would have an easier time transitioning into BW
(Plus I just want to play a map like that because it sounds fun )
On October 05 2011 09:24 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: If I may put this out there. Perhaps someone with some computer expertise could improve BW compatibility with today's machines. Like debug some interface issues that usually need various 3rd party mods to fix and create a clean concise package for quick and easy installation and play.
Another thing to consider is improving the quality of the sprites. BW has a distinct look to it, a look that is not helped by todays monitors and resolutions. I am not saying SC2 3D, that would be bad IMO considering how the AI works, but perhaps improving the quality and resolution of the in-game sprites to be more visually appealing outsiders, while still retaining that classic look and feel. I was thinking along the lines of taking a Zealot sprite for example, then perhaps doubling the pixel count with the extra pixels detailing and highlighting the original design.
I honestly think this is going to be a big hurdle for expansion that needs to (in some form) be addressed. What a 10 year BW vet sees and experiences, may not be what a potential newcomer sees and experiences, even if they are looking at the same game.
I've actually been thinking about this for a while. Something like Brood War 2. Like how valve is making DOTA 2. it'd be fucking awesome if someone made it. Everyone would consider the idea insane, considering the game still exists and SC2 is released, but idunno ,its just a cool idea in my head :3
A HD remake like Capcom has been doing with older Street Fighter games would be nice, but I don't think Blizzard actually wants people playing BW anymore.
Blizzard certainly won't do it, they are fully invested in the infrastructure of SC2. But I think this is something the community could do. I mean look at all the third party programs being developed for SC2 or third party support for games like Counter Strike or Elder Scrolls. That is a lot of coding skill being devoted to those games and that is not coming from the developer itself.
Also, this would be in essence a patch to BW, it wouldn't replace the game, but instead update it. Everything else remains the same (for better or worse), but its just a crisper, cleaner and more stable experience.
Personally I think it would be really really awesome if they had everything SC2 has mechanic wise (MBS, more units in a control group, etc etc) but with everything else being exactly like BW (units/cost/maps/buildings etc). They have SC2BW custom map right now but I don't really like it at all...things don't seem right on it, they even increased the size of everything so it feels like you're playing on the hella small res too.
The day I can play BW on 1920x1200 is the day I can die happily xD
I think the reverse would be way more useful as a "bridge": A mod where it was SC2 with BW mechanics enforced. And then people who found that fun would have an easier time transitioning into BW
(Plus I just want to play a map like that because it sounds fun )
On October 05 2011 18:29 Sayle wrote: I have a big project planned for the upcoming proleague season. I'm not going to announce the details until I see roughly what the proleague schedule looks like, but it should solve all these complaints of not enough English commentaries ;p
On October 05 2011 09:24 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: If I may put this out there. Perhaps someone with some computer expertise could improve BW compatibility with today's machines. Like debug some interface issues that usually need various 3rd party mods to fix and create a clean concise package for quick and easy installation and play.
Another thing to consider is improving the quality of the sprites. BW has a distinct look to it, a look that is not helped by todays monitors and resolutions. I am not saying SC2 3D, that would be bad IMO considering how the AI works, but perhaps improving the quality and resolution of the in-game sprites to be more visually appealing outsiders, while still retaining that classic look and feel. I was thinking along the lines of taking a Zealot sprite for example, then perhaps doubling the pixel count with the extra pixels detailing and highlighting the original design.
I honestly think this is going to be a big hurdle for expansion that needs to (in some form) be addressed. What a 10 year BW vet sees and experiences, may not be what a potential newcomer sees and experiences, even if they are looking at the same game.
I've actually been thinking about this for a while. Something like Brood War 2. Like how valve is making DOTA 2. it'd be fucking awesome if someone made it. Everyone would consider the idea insane, considering the game still exists and SC2 is released, but idunno ,its just a cool idea in my head :3
A HD remake like Capcom has been doing with older Street Fighter games would be nice, but I don't think Blizzard actually wants people playing BW anymore.
Blizzard certainly won't do it, they are fully invested in the infrastructure of SC2. But I think this is something the community could do. I mean look at all the third party programs being developed for SC2 or third party support for games like Counter Strike or Elder Scrolls. That is a lot of coding skill being devoted to those games and that is not coming from the developer itself.
Also, this would be in essence a patch to BW, it wouldn't replace the game, but instead update it. Everything else remains the same (for better or worse), but its just a crisper, cleaner and more stable experience.
Personally I think it would be really really awesome if they had everything SC2 has mechanic wise (MBS, more units in a control group, etc etc) but with everything else being exactly like BW (units/cost/maps/buildings etc). They have SC2BW custom map right now but I don't really like it at all...things don't seem right on it, they even increased the size of everything so it feels like you're playing on the hella small res too.
The day I can play BW on 1920x1200 is the day I can die happily xD
I think the reverse would be way more useful as a "bridge": A mod where it was SC2 with BW mechanics enforced. And then people who found that fun would have an easier time transitioning into BW
(Plus I just want to play a map like that because it sounds fun )
That MOD makes goons smart. I helped a businessmen organize a showmatch of ex-BW megagosu's that play SC2 professionally to play on that MOD, and when one of them told me that goons are smart and tanks are balanced, I knew it was an inaccurate MOD. I'm pretty sure too, that Ribbon is aware of this MOD, and he means one with more accuracy. Hence the "BW mechanics enforced". However, something like this would be near impossible to do. Making units as dumb in SC2 as they are in BW would mean reverse engineering a lottt of shit, and you'd have to pay someone a lottt of money to do it.
OTH I'm pretty sure you could add mbs and unlimited control groups to BW with little effort. But imo that's not really what makes bw hard; it's more akin to how in sc2 you can box your mineral line, press b-b click and ta-da you have a barracks. Something as simple as that would require major changes to unit ai and thus the whole game would be thrown off-balance
On October 05 2011 09:24 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: If I may put this out there. Perhaps someone with some computer expertise could improve BW compatibility with today's machines. Like debug some interface issues that usually need various 3rd party mods to fix and create a clean concise package for quick and easy installation and play.
Another thing to consider is improving the quality of the sprites. BW has a distinct look to it, a look that is not helped by todays monitors and resolutions. I am not saying SC2 3D, that would be bad IMO considering how the AI works, but perhaps improving the quality and resolution of the in-game sprites to be more visually appealing outsiders, while still retaining that classic look and feel. I was thinking along the lines of taking a Zealot sprite for example, then perhaps doubling the pixel count with the extra pixels detailing and highlighting the original design.
I honestly think this is going to be a big hurdle for expansion that needs to (in some form) be addressed. What a 10 year BW vet sees and experiences, may not be what a potential newcomer sees and experiences, even if they are looking at the same game.
I've actually been thinking about this for a while. Something like Brood War 2. Like how valve is making DOTA 2. it'd be fucking awesome if someone made it. Everyone would consider the idea insane, considering the game still exists and SC2 is released, but idunno ,its just a cool idea in my head :3
A HD remake like Capcom has been doing with older Street Fighter games would be nice, but I don't think Blizzard actually wants people playing BW anymore.
Blizzard certainly won't do it, they are fully invested in the infrastructure of SC2. But I think this is something the community could do. I mean look at all the third party programs being developed for SC2 or third party support for games like Counter Strike or Elder Scrolls. That is a lot of coding skill being devoted to those games and that is not coming from the developer itself.
Also, this would be in essence a patch to BW, it wouldn't replace the game, but instead update it. Everything else remains the same (for better or worse), but its just a crisper, cleaner and more stable experience.
Personally I think it would be really really awesome if they had everything SC2 has mechanic wise (MBS, more units in a control group, etc etc) but with everything else being exactly like BW (units/cost/maps/buildings etc). They have SC2BW custom map right now but I don't really like it at all...things don't seem right on it, they even increased the size of everything so it feels like you're playing on the hella small res too.
The day I can play BW on 1920x1200 is the day I can die happily xD
I think the reverse would be way more useful as a "bridge": A mod where it was SC2 with BW mechanics enforced. And then people who found that fun would have an easier time transitioning into BW
(Plus I just want to play a map like that because it sounds fun )
That's BW in the SC2 engine. Which is nifty, but I'm thinking of like only being able to have 12 marauders in a control group. SC2 units, BW mechanics. I think it's be neat, and potentially a good bridge, but we're starting to veer off topic so I'll shush about it
On October 05 2011 18:29 Sayle wrote: I have a big project planned for the upcoming proleague season. I'm not going to announce the details until I see roughly what the proleague schedule looks like, but it should solve all these complaints of not enough English commentaries ;p
I want more koreans streams and oh by the way will upload lots of in to the msl vods on youtube ,I hope I can contribut to my home tl.net for giving me a forum where I can correspond with bw players and share the same passion.
I know I can't cast or play games now because of my landlord router which can't port forward to safe it's life , thought reinstalling a new firm ware and take the risk but it's just too riskly .In the meantime I think I can help out with the fpvod section . I am a total fpvod junkie , looking at fpvod always give me much more satisfaction that seeing girls when the camera is shoved at them and than they cover their face feeling embarassed ..
Fpvod is where the battle is truly experience.
here's my first share Firebathero v Much
Ruby v Tempest (recommended for terran newbies )
More fpvods to come soon , hope my internet speed will stop trolling me so I can get things done faster
On October 05 2011 18:29 Sayle wrote: I have a big project planned for the upcoming proleague season. I'm not going to announce the details until I see roughly what the proleague schedule looks like, but it should solve all these complaints of not enough English commentaries ;p
Oh god, please Sayle do the PL commentary, that would be so badass. I am sure everyone enjoys your vidid commentaries. As much as i love korean commentators, it is great to hear and understand someone talking about the game. It would also be really good for those guys new to watching bw and make it easier to understand which is our goal. I can't wait for the games already.
On October 05 2011 18:29 Sayle wrote: I have a big project planned for the upcoming proleague season. I'm not going to announce the details until I see roughly what the proleague schedule looks like, but it should solve all these complaints of not enough English commentaries ;p
Oh god, please Sayle do the PL commentary, that would be so badass. I am sure everyone enjoys your vidid commentaries. As much as i love korean commentators, it is great to hear and understand someone talking about the game. It would also be really good for those guys new to watching bw and make it easier to understand which is our goal. I can't wait for the games already.
On October 05 2011 18:29 Sayle wrote: I have a big project planned for the upcoming proleague season. I'm not going to announce the details until I see roughly what the proleague schedule looks like, but it should solve all these complaints of not enough English commentaries ;p
Oh god, please Sayle do the PL commentary, that would be so badass. I am sure everyone enjoys your vidid commentaries. As much as i love korean commentators, it is great to hear and understand someone talking about the game. It would also be really good for those guys new to watching bw and make it easier to understand which is our goal. I can't wait for the games already.
The source I have , has more games than what nevake has actually thanks anyway for the links .
Sawamura do you actually have all the vods on your disk or you have a source online? I think FPVODS are the greatest thing to watch and i would definately appreciate more sources. Mostly pros or semi-pros of course.
On October 05 2011 18:29 Sayle wrote: I have a big project planned for the upcoming proleague season. I'm not going to announce the details until I see roughly what the proleague schedule looks like, but it should solve all these complaints of not enough English commentaries ;p
Oh god, please Sayle do the PL commentary, that would be so badass. I am sure everyone enjoys your vidid commentaries. As much as i love korean commentators, it is great to hear and understand someone talking about the game. It would also be really good for those guys new to watching bw and make it easier to understand which is our goal. I can't wait for the games already.
The source I have , has more games than what nevake has actually thanks anyway for the links .
Sawamura do you actually have all the vods on your disk or you have a source online? I think FPVODS are the greatest thing to watch and i would definately appreciate more sources. Mostly pros or semi-pros of course.
Seems like I missed the biggest one made in 2007 the fpvods were up to 20gb http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=64362¤tpage=2, However I will never stop uploading the current fpvods that I am trying to upload from wfbrood.com . Although it may not be at it's original format it's still watchable and good materials for newbies or pro's to watch . Yeah my source are online for now . Trying to get more currently.
I think a really easy and simple thing we can do to strengthen BW is to meet/play with those people just starting. Even if you're just like D/D+ ish, it's so hard to just get into BW without a little friendly advice. The practice partner thread
generally keeps getting updated with people who are either just starting or getting back into it. It's really hard to add a bunch of random people and be online at the same time so send them a PM on TL, meet up, and play some games!
On October 05 2011 18:29 Sayle wrote: I have a big project planned for the upcoming proleague season. I'm not going to announce the details until I see roughly what the proleague schedule looks like, but it should solve all these complaints of not enough English commentaries ;p
It got a lot of lower ranked players actively practicing and competing with each other to try and get better instead of just mindlessly laddering. I thought it helped create a sense of community that is missing at the D to C ranks right now. The last one got derailed at the end by the SC2 beta but I don't think that will happen again.
The number of new members within the BW community isn't staggeringly high but little by little we are gaining momentum. Great to see SC2 players coming back to learn and play BW, and the attitude of the BW community has towards these people moving back.
I tried to expand it in TvX sections; maybe it's worth rearranging to fit in my additions?
- Starport play can make for interesting matchups. This typically only involved accumulation of large numbers of dropships to allow for better mobility of the mech army, dropping either at expansions to do economic damage, or at tanklines to abuse splash damage, but there has been a tendency in recent months for players to go heavily towards air, specifically large numbers of cloaked wraiths with a possibility of battlecruisers/valkyries in the late game. Some players have used a quick two-port wraith strategy in the past (Leta immediately springs to mind) to try to gain fast aerial superiority and pick off workers/tanks when Terran's anti-air is limited.
In TvT, it was Lomo, who popularized it. Leta did it as well, but mostly in TvZ.
- some players (notably Flash, often Fantasy) opt for a very quick armory, often two, in order to gain an upgrade advantage.
The vision is another crucial part of TvT. Tanks in Siege Mode can shoot further than they see, but they cannot shoot blindly outside their sight range, so the vision has to be provided by something else; commonly, a flying building or Wraith. Later in the game, players also use Comsat Stations to find distant targets for his sieged Tanks.
Some TvT's involve a stage of Vulture play, where one side tries to get the advantage by either harassing enemy SCV's before his Tanks grow in numbers, or by placing Mines to restrict his mobility and map control. Note that because of high and ranged damage of Terran Mech, mines in TvT are usually being clumped together tightly, so they could pop out simultaneously and get at least one hit before they're killed. In games involving Mines, the defending side sometimes uses a Marine or a Tank as a living detector, carefully inching forward and making sure that Vultures he keeps nearby will kill the Mines before they can explode.
TvZ [...] - Unless the Zerg is going for some sort of weird fast lurker play, they will usually look to get to a spire quickly. The idea of this isn't to kill the Terran, more to contain him and keep his army inside his base to allow the Zerg to secure a third base.
At this point, Terran has to make a choice to either defend the harass by keeping his infantry inside his base, or to move out and try to fight them off somewhere in the middle of the map. If he chooses the former, he'll usually be very safe, but at the cost of potential SCV losses and losing map control. Flash and many other pro Terrans frequently choose the latter option, which is risky, but more agressive; it's based on the fact, that if Zerg ignores Terran presence in the middle, and tries to backstab him with Mutas, Terran troops in turn attack at Zerg natural, knowing that Zerg couldn't transition to ground army yet.
In most standard TvZ, when Terran goes bio and Zerg goes Mutalisks into Lurkers, there are couple crucial moments (timings) that may decide the game straight away or at least secure the advantage for either side. First important timing occurs when Terran adds two Medics to his initial Marine force. As a principle, he then immediately moves out, heading towards Zerg natural expansion. It all happens before Mutas pop out, so Zerg can either throw down Sunken Colonies or try to make a backstab attack with the Zerglings. The whole purpose of Terran maneuver is not killing the enemy, but forcing the Sunkens to be made, which shall weaken Zerg economy as he loses Drones to make static defense. And then, since Terran doesn't want to leave his bases vulnerable to Zergling backstab, he will often make a round of Firebats and puts them at the choke. Many decent Zerg players will try the third option and use Zerglings to poke around and delay Terran infantry, keeping his Creep Colonies unmutated into Sunkens until it's absolutely necessary to do so.
The second important moment is when first Science Vessel is out. This unit can Irradiate the Mutas if they're still around, shutting down the harass attempts. Vessel also makes Lurkers visible and vulnerable to Tank and infantry attacks, so Zerg has to retreat from the position he occupied (considering he tried to set up very standard Lurker contain). Now, Terran pushes out for the second time, usually with 2-3 Tanks and about two control groups of Medic/Marines. This time, he wants to inflict as much damage as possible before Defilers and Dark Swarm come into play. At this stage, Zerg tactics often involve making lot of Sunken colonies to delay the push and/or placing Lurker eggs at chokes to block infantry access to Zerg bases. On certain maps, Zerg will also divide his forces and sent some units through side paths, either to prepare a flanking attack against advancing enemy, or to cut the reinforcements he is sending out.
Finally, if Zerg survives this second stage, the third important moment can be largely in his favor, as it involves spawning many Ultralisks from gas he's been stockpiling so far. Sometimes, this moment has to be postponed or even forsaken, because Terran manages to damage Zerg gas supply or kills some of his important, lower-level tech before Ultralisk Cavern is made. Nevertheless, when Ultralisks come into play, Terran needs to have large Science Vessel count (for mass Irradiate) and/or 3rd base already secured. At this point, some Terrans will transition into Tank-heavy play, using them for defence while keeping some Marines and Medics outside for map control. Note that full-health Ultralisk won't die solely to one Irradiate, and it can turn the radiation against it's distributors, by fighting and poisoning Terran infantry during it's own period of contamination.
TvP [...] - Terran will usually then try to increase factory count, get mines to gain map control while Protoss lacks detection and maybe look to harass probes with vultures.
Timing of Terran Armories is usually a good indication of what plan he is following. No Armory at all, along with rapidly increasing Factory count signatures early timing attack, usually being launched while Protoss is taking his 3rd base. Timing attacks usually aim towards Protoss natural, to either contain him once and for all or just isolate him from 3rd expansion long enough so that expansion can be taken down by other Terran forces. Such pushes are generally conducted with a company of few SCV to make Turrets, repair Tanks and build lift-off structures to get more vision of the battlefield.
On the other hand, if Terran throws down two Armories early on and starts upgrading, it announces long, economy-oriented game. The purpose of this strategy is to steadily boost the damage of Terran Mech and attempt to win the game once the supply and upgrade limit is reached. This bases on a simple fact, that once Terran troops starts to grow in numbers, they gain strength much faster that their Protoss counterparts. On the other hand, this style requires strong game-sense and patient defensive play, as Protoss will usually aim to preserve map control, pick off the Armories by Recalling units near them and/or agressively wear down Terran troops before they can reach critical mass.
Against Arbiters, Terran will usually make lots of Turrets at the edges of his main base, as well as lay minefields behind them to defend from Recalls. He'll also add couple of Science Vessels with EMP Shockwave upgrage to wear down Arbiter energy and Protoss shields. Other common tactics involve Vulture raids to snipe High Templars and building Supply Depot walls to tighten of even block paths that might be used by Protoss forces. Rarely seen possiblilty involves adding Ghosts to the army, hoping to either Lockdown incoming Arbiters or drop a Nuclear Bomb on some enemy mining Nexus (which leads to it's destruction if it's combined with EMP shot beforehand).
Finally, against Carriers, Terran will normally make mass Goliaths and try either to pick off the Interceptors or to chase Carriers with direct fire (or, most often, combine both these options). The other treatment involves making numerous Wraiths with Cloak upgrade and hunting down entire Observer support before attacking the Carriers with invisibility on. It has to be noted that Boxer had some success with Medic Optical Flare against Observers as well as the Lockdown against Carriers themselves, but this kind of offbeat play is seldom seen today, if ever.
Protoss will frequently wall off a third base with pylons to limit this, until he gets a forge (rarely made before they are on three bases) and can place a cannon(s) to ward them off.
Note that this strategy can sometimes be counter-productive, because if Terran drops units into walled-off base, Protoss will have to either ferry the defenders with Shuttle or destroy the Pylon wall from the outside.
- Protoss has a few different tech paths that they can go down. They will usually go towards some form of stargate play - a clue as to which one is building timings, a stargate before they have a templar archives usually indicates carriers (also check the cyber core, if it is spinning midgame after goon range is done, then carriers normally follow), if the stargate/archives are going down at the same time then expect arbiters. Reaver play is occasionally used, normally in a harassing function with drop play or to attack misplaced tanks. The citadel tech route is somewhat more frequent, speed zealots and storms are both useful in countering typical Terran tactics.
During typical ground army engagement, Protoss will attack Terran mech ball with an arc of Dragoons and send out Zealots afterwards to run among Terran Tanks. The purpose of using speed Zealots this way is to drag Spider Mines into Tanks and draw their fire, so they can cripple each other with splash damage. Terran, on the other hand, will use Vultures as meatshields to protect the Tanks and mop up Zealots while ordering Tanks to shoot Dragoon crowd. In the end, Protoss will typically retreat his forces once he loses all his Zealots or, if successful, he'll kill the entire mech ball. Either way, it's unlikely for Terran to run away from such battle when it begins, as Tanks move rather slowly and unsieging them simply takes too much time.
When Carriers come into play, it's quite different. Protoss will try to abuse the cliffs and any unwalkable terrain to provide some cover for his fleet. Terran will try to either corner or encircle the Carriers, moving and shooting with Goliath mass. Standard Protoss response is to keep a squad of Dragoons near Carriers to fight off the Goliaths; in fact, many games with Carriers are decided by the way Terran copes with those Dragoons, as Goliaths are generally terrible at taking them down.
The IPL's little BW game of Boxer vs. Huk brought more attention to BW then anything else in recent memory. Maybe that is the way to do. Known SC2 players versus BW legends in friendly matches here and there.
Probably not a big deal but the Live on 3 panel just now spoke positively about BW in the west.
I think the key issue can be seen like this: DJWheat is always talking about Quake and how he wishes it was more popular like SC2, but have you ever once heard Tasteless or Artosis or Day9 talk about BW that way?
On October 05 2011 09:24 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: If I may put this out there. Perhaps someone with some computer expertise could improve BW compatibility with today's machines. Like debug some interface issues that usually need various 3rd party mods to fix and create a clean concise package for quick and easy installation and play.
Another thing to consider is improving the quality of the sprites. BW has a distinct look to it, a look that is not helped by todays monitors and resolutions. I am not saying SC2 3D, that would be bad IMO considering how the AI works, but perhaps improving the quality and resolution of the in-game sprites to be more visually appealing outsiders, while still retaining that classic look and feel. I was thinking along the lines of taking a Zealot sprite for example, then perhaps doubling the pixel count with the extra pixels detailing and highlighting the original design.
I honestly think this is going to be a big hurdle for expansion that needs to (in some form) be addressed. What a 10 year BW vet sees and experiences, may not be what a potential newcomer sees and experiences, even if they are looking at the same game.
I've actually been thinking about this for a while. Something like Brood War 2. Like how valve is making DOTA 2. it'd be fucking awesome if someone made it. Everyone would consider the idea insane, considering the game still exists and SC2 is released, but idunno ,its just a cool idea in my head :3
A HD remake like Capcom has been doing with older Street Fighter games would be nice, but I don't think Blizzard actually wants people playing BW anymore.
Blizzard certainly won't do it, they are fully invested in the infrastructure of SC2. But I think this is something the community could do. I mean look at all the third party programs being developed for SC2 or third party support for games like Counter Strike or Elder Scrolls. That is a lot of coding skill being devoted to those games and that is not coming from the developer itself.
Also, this would be in essence a patch to BW, it wouldn't replace the game, but instead update it. Everything else remains the same (for better or worse), but its just a crisper, cleaner and more stable experience.
Personally I think it would be really really awesome if they had everything SC2 has mechanic wise (MBS, more units in a control group, etc etc) but with everything else being exactly like BW (units/cost/maps/buildings etc). They have SC2BW custom map right now but I don't really like it at all...things don't seem right on it, they even increased the size of everything so it feels like you're playing on the hella small res too.
The day I can play BW on 1920x1200 is the day I can die happily xD
There is a BW resolution hack out there, but I am not sure it supported widescreen. I used it to watch replays sometimes. Although it is a little bit unfair as you can see a lot more on one screen with it, but if you are not using it in tounaments I guess no one would mind
On October 07 2011 18:41 Bill Murray wrote: Foreigner pro house where an e-Sports players association forces them to practice for 12-14 hours a day, please
On October 07 2011 18:41 Bill Murray wrote: Foreigner pro house where an e-Sports players association forces them to practice for 12-14 hours a day, please
On October 02 2011 19:16 LML wrote: man, all this win7 problems, there is a simple fix: format your PC and install an OS that works fine with BW, even if it's just vista, I never had problems with my BW there.
On December 06 2011 05:25 FraCuS wrote: Proleague has already started
LETS GO PEOPLES
/bump/
I've been much busier than I initially expected (20 credit hours + work/med volunteering) so I haven't been able to put nearly as much time into this so far as I have wanted; but with finals coming up next week things will be winding down and I should have a bunch of time to devote to working on this.
im a sc2 player and the reason I got back into BW was simply the awesome stories behind boxer, oov, savior, flash, jaedong, etc. oh and especially FBH. it was BW players in the SC2 scene telling the sc2 guys stories of the old days that really took my interest.
BW is not popular in west because we keep getting owned so bad vs Koreans(stomped to death). it discourages people and they want to play sc2 instead because its less mechanically demanding. Lets face it this is the reason sc1 pros left in droves to sc2, not because they believe sc2 is more fun. sc2 is just mechanically easier for foreigners, and aging Korean bw players.
On December 06 2011 06:38 zimz wrote: BW is not popular in west because we keep getting owned so bad vs Koreans(stomped to death). it discourages people and they want to play sc2 instead because its less mechanically demanding. Lets face it this is the reason sc1 pros left in droves to sc2, not because they believe sc2 is more fun. sc2 is just mechanically easier for foreigners, and aging Korean bw players.
Noone argues this (except mad SC2 fanbois). But this isn't the point of this thread. This thread is about making BW interesting on a casual level.
On December 06 2011 06:38 zimz wrote: BW is not popular in west because we keep getting owned so bad vs Koreans(stomped to death). it discourages people and they want to play sc2 instead because its less mechanically demanding. Lets face it this is the reason sc1 pros left in droves to sc2, not because they believe sc2 is more fun. sc2 is just mechanically easier for foreigners, and aging Korean bw players.
Noone argues this (except mad SC2 fanbois). But this isn't the point of this thread. This thread is about making BW interesting on a casual level.
No, they left because initially it was something new to try and then stayed because so much more money was available. Kinda hard to justify practicing BW 6-8 hours or more per day only to still be worse than B-team level with only the occasional chance to make some money by having a good run in tournaments like TSL.
I'm pretty confident that if BW had the same amount of money in it as SC2 you would see many foreigners come back and play BW.
On December 06 2011 06:38 zimz wrote: BW is not popular in west because we keep getting owned so bad vs Koreans(stomped to death). it discourages people and they want to play sc2 instead because its less mechanically demanding. Lets face it this is the reason sc1 pros left in droves to sc2, not because they believe sc2 is more fun. sc2 is just mechanically easier for foreigners, and aging Korean bw players.
Noone argues this (except mad SC2 fanbois). But this isn't the point of this thread. This thread is about making BW interesting on a casual level.
No, they left because initially it was something new to try and then stayed because so much more money was available. Kinda hard to justify practicing BW 6-8 hours or more per day only to still be worse than B-team level with only the occasional chance to make some money by having a good run in tournaments like TSL.
I'm pretty confident that if BW had the same amount of money in it as SC2 you would see many foreigners come back and play BW.
I highly doubt there are any foreigners who practice 6-8 hours a day. With the exception of Idra, Ret, and Nony will in Korea.
On December 06 2011 06:38 zimz wrote: BW is not popular in west because we keep getting owned so bad vs Koreans(stomped to death). it discourages people and they want to play sc2 instead because its less mechanically demanding. Lets face it this is the reason sc1 pros left in droves to sc2, not because they believe sc2 is more fun. sc2 is just mechanically easier for foreigners, and aging Korean bw players.
That is probably the smallest reason, the biggest reason is money, money, money. The root of all evil.
On December 06 2011 06:38 zimz wrote: BW is not popular in west because we keep getting owned so bad vs Koreans(stomped to death). it discourages people and they want to play sc2 instead because its less mechanically demanding. Lets face it this is the reason sc1 pros left in droves to sc2, not because they believe sc2 is more fun. sc2 is just mechanically easier for foreigners, and aging Korean bw players.
Noone argues this (except mad SC2 fanbois). But this isn't the point of this thread. This thread is about making BW interesting on a casual level.
No, they left because initially it was something new to try and then stayed because so much more money was available. Kinda hard to justify practicing BW 6-8 hours or more per day only to still be worse than B-team level with only the occasional chance to make some money by having a good run in tournaments like TSL.
I'm pretty confident that if BW had the same amount of money in it as SC2 you would see many foreigners come back and play BW.
I highly doubt there are any foreigners who practice 6-8 hours a day. With the exception of Idra, Ret, and Nony will in Korea.
Foreigners moved to SC2 because there was a foreignerscene mit tournaments and prizemoney...korean B-Teamer were thinking about a better chance of being one of the top class player like mentioned before.
On December 06 2011 06:38 zimz wrote: BW is not popular in west because we keep getting owned so bad vs Koreans(stomped to death). it discourages people and they want to play sc2 instead because its less mechanically demanding. Lets face it this is the reason sc1 pros left in droves to sc2, not because they believe sc2 is more fun. sc2 is just mechanically easier for foreigners, and aging Korean bw players.
Noone argues this (except mad SC2 fanbois). But this isn't the point of this thread. This thread is about making BW interesting on a casual level.
No, they left because initially it was something new to try and then stayed because so much more money was available. Kinda hard to justify practicing BW 6-8 hours or more per day only to still be worse than B-team level with only the occasional chance to make some money by having a good run in tournaments like TSL.
I'm pretty confident that if BW had the same amount of money in it as SC2 you would see many foreigners come back and play BW.
I highly doubt there are any foreigners who practice 6-8 hours a day. With the exception of Idra, Ret, and Nony will in Korea.
Exactly my point.
In SC2 though it might be a little more reasonable to do such a thing since you can actually support yourself if your a good player.
On December 06 2011 06:38 zimz wrote: BW is not popular in west because we keep getting owned so bad vs Koreans(stomped to death). it discourages people and they want to play sc2 instead because its less mechanically demanding. Lets face it this is the reason sc1 pros left in droves to sc2, not because they believe sc2 is more fun. sc2 is just mechanically easier for foreigners, and aging Korean bw players.
Noone argues this (except mad SC2 fanbois). But this isn't the point of this thread. This thread is about making BW interesting on a casual level.
No, they left because initially it was something new to try and then stayed because so much more money was available. Kinda hard to justify practicing BW 6-8 hours or more per day only to still be worse than B-team level with only the occasional chance to make some money by having a good run in tournaments like TSL.
I'm pretty confident that if BW had the same amount of money in it as SC2 you would see many foreigners come back and play BW.
but i'm pretty sure they would get stomped by koreans. non of the matches would even be close
On December 06 2011 06:38 zimz wrote: BW is not popular in west because we keep getting owned so bad vs Koreans(stomped to death). it discourages people and they want to play sc2 instead because its less mechanically demanding. Lets face it this is the reason sc1 pros left in droves to sc2, not because they believe sc2 is more fun. sc2 is just mechanically easier for foreigners, and aging Korean bw players.
Noone argues this (except mad SC2 fanbois). But this isn't the point of this thread. This thread is about making BW interesting on a casual level.
No, they left because initially it was something new to try and then stayed because so much more money was available. Kinda hard to justify practicing BW 6-8 hours or more per day only to still be worse than B-team level with only the occasional chance to make some money by having a good run in tournaments like TSL.
I'm pretty confident that if BW had the same amount of money in it as SC2 you would see many foreigners come back and play BW.
but i'm pretty sure they would get stomped by koreans. non of the matches would even be close
No doubt.
That said it is still possible to be pretty successful even if you can't win tournaments because even lower place finishes make a decent bit of money, and with the rise of more serious team commitments + streaming revenue its quite possible to make some decent money even if you can't actually win tournaments.
So i've been writing BW songs since we need more. I really wanna make videos to go along with them and then put them on TL. anyone have any experience doing this?
On December 06 2011 17:44 puppykiller wrote: So i've been writing BW songs since we need more. I really wanna make videos to go along with them and then put them on TL. anyone have any experience doing this?
On December 06 2011 17:44 puppykiller wrote: So i've been writing BW songs since we need more. I really wanna make videos to go along with them and then put them on TL. anyone have any experience doing this?
During the Spring Break I was going to put together a short Bisu/ Flash video based on the proleague game and a couple past performance clips. But by the time I had the videos in a format I could edit, the quality had degraded too much
What programs were you using? There are free trials for sony vegas and adobe premiere online. I've only had good experiences with both programs, although premiere was hard as hell to learn. :/
No it was super pixelated which ruins everything from crowd shots to cool micro moments. I really don't know pull videos off of youtube except with youtubedownloader (and after spending a few hours hunting down the hidden programs the dang thing also installs, I really don't recommend it.)
I've tried a variety of free video editing programs, but the only 'success' I've had is with microsoft movie maker- and that makes we want to throw my laptop at a wall. The stupid program keeps crashing even on my really good computer. Also need to covert from flv to something mmaker understands which is probably where the quality is lost. Windows Live is awful, I didn't have success with Zwei-Stein, and Jashaka I couldn't figure out how to work. But I could try a few free trial versions I guess.
Two suggestions: if you're trying to rip files from youtube or download files in general, use jdownloader. If you copy any URL, jdownloader instantly downloads it. For instance, copy the URL for a youtube video and it pulls all resolutions of it all the way up to 1080 and downloads all mp4 formats as well as only the audio (for all resolutions). Two: Sony vegas is really, really easy to learn and very good overall.
I've recently been getting a stream going and such, once I get the audio sorted I'll probably do little guides on stuff like worker splitting and stuff which I wish I knew a month ago. Having said that, I'm D on iccup and probably not the best person for it xD
On April 30 2012 09:54 zany_001 wrote: I've recently been getting a stream going and such, once I get the audio sorted I'll probably do little guides on stuff like worker splitting and stuff which I wish I knew a month ago. Having said that, I'm D on iccup and probably not the best person for it xD
On April 30 2012 09:54 zany_001 wrote: I've recently been getting a stream going and such, once I get the audio sorted I'll probably do little guides on stuff like worker splitting and stuff which I wish I knew a month ago. Having said that, I'm D on iccup and probably not the best person for it xD
Wish I had a capable cpu to do it...
IF I can figure out how the hell to do it, I might start streaming too.
On April 30 2012 09:54 zany_001 wrote: I've recently been getting a stream going and such, once I get the audio sorted I'll probably do little guides on stuff like worker splitting and stuff which I wish I knew a month ago. Having said that, I'm D on iccup and probably not the best person for it xD
Wish I had a capable cpu to do it...
IF I can figure out how the hell to do it, I might start streaming too.
I think the one thing that is missed here is the players as stars. There has to be some players who will standout from the competition for the foreign scene to have viable and sustainable support. Otherwise, it will just be like watching the same faceless people everytime and nothing to get excited about.
Hi guys. I uploaded a pilot commentary highlight vid. It's only compiled from like 6 hacklebeast/elegant broadcasts I randomly downloaded. It features ISL, ASL and SAS tour 2 and focuses pretty much solely on P play. It felt wrong to just render the selected clips as they were so I added some credits and tried to make it a bit more coherent and pathetic (see ending).
I do like to keep the videos as clean as possible, no funky special effects because 1) I don't know how to do it 2) I'm too lazy to learn 3) I prefer the clips longer and clear so that you actually know what's going on.
If it was specifically for a league/tournament it could probably be more structured so that it would reflect the progress of the events. Anyway, here it is:
Questions 2ne1: What do you think of the format? Can it attract anyone new to watching the casts? Would you watch it just to recap the best moments after watching all the casts? Or is it just not worth it?
2 casters/organizers: Would it be okay for me to make highlights of your league(s)? Or is something like this being done by someone already? I've only managed to find intro videos to the leagues.
I'd rather not commit myself, so a simple "yeah you can download our casts and make a similar highlight vid whenever you want to" is just what I'm looking for. I can't and don't want to promise anything on a "once per x" basis. Ideally I'd just sit down and pick whatever league interests me the most atm and waste a few hours putting it together..
p.s. I've been bold enough to use the casts above without any permissions since it's just a pilot vid, but if I am to do more of these I'd rather know for sure that everyone is fine with it. If any caster or organizer in that vid demands I'll take the vide down as soon as I can.
On May 17 2012 11:35 Stratos wrote: Hi guys. I uploaded a pilot commentary highlight vid. It's only compiled from like 6 hacklebeast/elegant broadcasts I randomly downloaded. It features ISL, ASL and SAS tour 2 and focuses pretty much solely on P play. It felt wrong to just render the selected clips as they were so I added some credits and tried to make it a bit more coherent and pathetic (see ending).
I do like to keep the videos as clean as possible, no funky special effects because 1) I don't know how to do it 2) I'm too lazy to learn 3) I prefer the clips longer and clear so that you actually know what's going on.
If it was specifically for a league/tournament it could probably be more structured so that it would reflect the progress of the events. Anyway, here it is:
Questions 2ne1: What do you think of the format? Can it attract anyone new to watching the casts? Would you watch it just to recap the best moments after watching all the casts? Or is it just not worth it?
2 casters/organizers: Would it be okay for me to make highlights of your league(s)? Or is something like this being done by someone already? I've only managed to find intro videos to the leagues.
I'd rather not commit myself, so a simple "yeah you can download our casts and make a similar highlight vid whenever you want to" is just what I'm looking for. I can't and don't want to promise anything on a "once per x" basis. Ideally I'd just sit down and pick whatever league interests me the most atm and waste a few hours putting it together..
p.s. I've been bold enough to use the casts above without any permissions since it's just a pilot vid, but if I am to do more of these I'd rather know for sure that everyone is fine with it. If any caster or organizer in that vid demands I'll take the vide down as soon as I can.
I definitely support this on behalf of the ASL! Such an awesome highlight video and really entertaining! EleGanT is such an awesome guy and it's nice to see a montage of his casting ^^
EPT
), but I've been kinda lazy about finally doing it. Having a group of people start at the same time and someone I can just play with anytime would be great.
.
sorry to disappoint you though, honestly.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aaMUu.jpg)
