EPTImportant: As foreigners we already have some awesome events such as the Altitude ISL, Gambit's Cup, and Noise's Amateur StarLeague to name a few currently running. The intention of this thread is only to strengthen these events and the community by uniting the Korean and International scenes as well as incorporating any other good ideas the community might come up with.
Please remember to watch and support the ISL and all the other amazing foreigner events.
Our Current Goal: To organize a community effort to support amateur Starleagues and Proleagues with the Korean Amateur scene and to strengthen the community in any way possible.
CakeOrI)eath's must-read epic post to understand this thread:
On May 01 2012 13:17 CakeOrI)eath wrote:
I agree with CaucasianAsian. We might have lost most of the good foreigner players and even tournaments to sc2 (TSL etc.) but we still have some foreign only tourneys and events. Game, along with others, have done remarkable work keeping those alive.
The true thing that many of us fear losing is the professional sc1 Korean scene and broadcasts. To me this thread is about keeping the spirit of that alive and available to foreigners to watch. This might just mean finding better ways to tune into Korean amateur tournaments that are already going on (and possibly donating to them). It might mean funding our own tourney for the Koreans to play in. Either would mean crossing a lot of cultural barriers.
I honestly don't know why its so hard for foreigners to access fish/afreeka. It seems the Koreans have no interest in making themselves available to us either through ignorance, apathy, or national pride (sc is Korean sport, gtfo everyone else). At the end of the day it doesn't really matter what reason it is, that's where the money comes in. If we make it clear we are willing to pay to watch high level bw, I'm confident that will change most of their attitudes.
To start off that money is going to have to come mostly, if not entirely, from viewer donations. I think we all agree we don't want a pay wall since we want to grow viewership, not kill it. While that model might actually be sustainable, I am personally hoping that we could actually grow viewership to the point that advertisers would be tempted to take over, or at least help. Either way, that is a long way off and it'ss assuming the KR progamers fully switch over to sc2 (I personally am still hoping they switch back to sc1 after this one year, and none of this will matter but I know its wishful thinking)
The thing I will agree with Game about is mixing the foreigners in. As much as I would LOVE to see our best players at least take a game off of the top KR amateurs, it just isn't going to happen. I certainly wouldn't bar them from entering but only invite them if they have a legit chance of winning a BO3-BO5. A 50-50 mix would mean so many walkovers it would just be a waste of time for everyone.
I agree with CaucasianAsian. We might have lost most of the good foreigner players and even tournaments to sc2 (TSL etc.) but we still have some foreign only tourneys and events. Game, along with others, have done remarkable work keeping those alive.
The true thing that many of us fear losing is the professional sc1 Korean scene and broadcasts. To me this thread is about keeping the spirit of that alive and available to foreigners to watch. This might just mean finding better ways to tune into Korean amateur tournaments that are already going on (and possibly donating to them). It might mean funding our own tourney for the Koreans to play in. Either would mean crossing a lot of cultural barriers.
I honestly don't know why its so hard for foreigners to access fish/afreeka. It seems the Koreans have no interest in making themselves available to us either through ignorance, apathy, or national pride (sc is Korean sport, gtfo everyone else). At the end of the day it doesn't really matter what reason it is, that's where the money comes in. If we make it clear we are willing to pay to watch high level bw, I'm confident that will change most of their attitudes.
To start off that money is going to have to come mostly, if not entirely, from viewer donations. I think we all agree we don't want a pay wall since we want to grow viewership, not kill it. While that model might actually be sustainable, I am personally hoping that we could actually grow viewership to the point that advertisers would be tempted to take over, or at least help. Either way, that is a long way off and it'ss assuming the KR progamers fully switch over to sc2 (I personally am still hoping they switch back to sc1 after this one year, and none of this will matter but I know its wishful thinking)
The thing I will agree with Game about is mixing the foreigners in. As much as I would LOVE to see our best players at least take a game off of the top KR amateurs, it just isn't going to happen. I certainly wouldn't bar them from entering but only invite them if they have a legit chance of winning a BO3-BO5. A 50-50 mix would mean so many walkovers it would just be a waste of time for everyone.
+ Show Spoiler +
Short Term:
IMO the quickest and best results we can get is to do as BLinD-RawR suggested and raise funds for a Korean Clan League tourney with all star foreigner clan.
* According to kjwcj:
---1 to 2 day tourney = ~200$
---ISL length tourney = ~2000$
---koreans will be reluctant to stream anything but afreeca though they may be ok with dual afreeca/twitch stream
---biggest problem should be communication/time logistics
---our community is totally capable of accomplishing our goal if we can overcome the logistics
* + Show Spoiler [kjwcj's very informative post] +
On April 28 2012 17:38 kjwcj wrote:
Before trying to do anything with the Koreans, you have to accept that you're never going to get them off Afreeca entirely. The main reason for this is that the return per viewer on Afreeca, by way of the balloon donation system, is so much greater than that of Twitch or its competitors.
For example, HiyA broadcasts to an average audience of 500-600 people 5-6 nights a week. By the standards of an SC2 or LoL stream on Twitch, this is small potatoes. However, HiyA receives enough donations from this relatively small viewer base to earn a decent living. This is the case for any number of other ex-pro broadcasters who also rarely attract more than 600 viewers but are still able to make streaming Starcraft their full time occupation.
Obviously, there are possible compromises. In the past, Nada has dual broadcasted to Afreeca and Twitch by running Xsplit and the Afreeca Broadcasting software in tandem. This is a decent alternative as it would allow the players to earn something from their foreign audience through Twitch ad revenue without cutting them off from their normal Korean audience. The effort to get something like that set up could potentially be a barrier for entry, as well as actually finding someone to show these guys how to set everything up.
Something that is probably a little bit more straightforward is simply having them come to us. A few hundred thousand won (ie. a few hundred USD) is a normal prize pool for a 1-2 day event featuring all the top ex and semi pro players. For a longer ISL scale event two million won (a bit less than two thousand USD) has been a rough average for the tournaments I've seen in the past six months. Obviously these aren't small amounts of money for just one person to be stumping up but they're not that different to the prize pools that we see in foreign events, so with a mix of sponsorship and donations it might be possible.
The logistics involved in organising a tournament with mainly or all Korean players has a lot of difficulties and not just those related to the language barrier. Simply having the connections to get in contact with the players you want to invite has its potential difficulties, as well as organising a way for the games to be played at a time that is reasonable for both the players and the audience. Replay casts are very uncommon in the Korean amateur tournaments I've seen and keeping the results of games private until the broadcast would be especially difficult given the fact that almost every player streams their FPV during tournament games.
Simply put, it is easily within the power of the existing BW community to put together something worthy of the absolute best that the Korean amateur scene has to offer. The difficulty is in actually making the connection and having them know (and care) that we're here.
IMO the quickest and best results we can get is to do as BLinD-RawR suggested and raise funds for a Korean Clan League tourney with all star foreigner clan.
* According to kjwcj:
---1 to 2 day tourney = ~200$
---ISL length tourney = ~2000$
---koreans will be reluctant to stream anything but afreeca though they may be ok with dual afreeca/twitch stream
---biggest problem should be communication/time logistics
---our community is totally capable of accomplishing our goal if we can overcome the logistics
* + Show Spoiler [kjwcj's very informative post] +
On April 28 2012 17:38 kjwcj wrote:
Before trying to do anything with the Koreans, you have to accept that you're never going to get them off Afreeca entirely. The main reason for this is that the return per viewer on Afreeca, by way of the balloon donation system, is so much greater than that of Twitch or its competitors.
For example, HiyA broadcasts to an average audience of 500-600 people 5-6 nights a week. By the standards of an SC2 or LoL stream on Twitch, this is small potatoes. However, HiyA receives enough donations from this relatively small viewer base to earn a decent living. This is the case for any number of other ex-pro broadcasters who also rarely attract more than 600 viewers but are still able to make streaming Starcraft their full time occupation.
Obviously, there are possible compromises. In the past, Nada has dual broadcasted to Afreeca and Twitch by running Xsplit and the Afreeca Broadcasting software in tandem. This is a decent alternative as it would allow the players to earn something from their foreign audience through Twitch ad revenue without cutting them off from their normal Korean audience. The effort to get something like that set up could potentially be a barrier for entry, as well as actually finding someone to show these guys how to set everything up.
Something that is probably a little bit more straightforward is simply having them come to us. A few hundred thousand won (ie. a few hundred USD) is a normal prize pool for a 1-2 day event featuring all the top ex and semi pro players. For a longer ISL scale event two million won (a bit less than two thousand USD) has been a rough average for the tournaments I've seen in the past six months. Obviously these aren't small amounts of money for just one person to be stumping up but they're not that different to the prize pools that we see in foreign events, so with a mix of sponsorship and donations it might be possible.
The logistics involved in organising a tournament with mainly or all Korean players has a lot of difficulties and not just those related to the language barrier. Simply having the connections to get in contact with the players you want to invite has its potential difficulties, as well as organising a way for the games to be played at a time that is reasonable for both the players and the audience. Replay casts are very uncommon in the Korean amateur tournaments I've seen and keeping the results of games private until the broadcast would be especially difficult given the fact that almost every player streams their FPV during tournament games.
Simply put, it is easily within the power of the existing BW community to put together something worthy of the absolute best that the Korean amateur scene has to offer. The difficulty is in actually making the connection and having them know (and care) that we're here.
Here is a great idea that Jaevlaterran is working on.
I originally wanted to secure funding through kickstarter but after looking more closely at their site it appears they are more geared towards artists, musicians, etc.
So securing funding is our most important task now.
I'm going to follow Game's advice. Let's see if we, as a community can find some sponsorships.Any Ideas?
+ Show Spoiler [Funding Poll] +
Poll: Is this a worthwhile endeavor?
Yes (82)
54%
No (56)
37%
Not Sure (13)
9%
Other (0)
0%
151 total votes
No (56)
Not Sure (13)
Other (0)
151 total votes
Your vote: Is this a worthwhile endeavor?
Long term:
Creation of a BW Community Tourney Organization
The creation of a community run Organization whose purpose is to raise funds for and organize StarLeagues in addition to promoting and strengthening the community in general. A sort of benign KeSPA that instead of being controlled by corporations is controlled directly by the Brood War community itself. This one needs lots of discussion in my opinion.
If Pro BW goes under, hopefully we can convince the Korean Clans to join us by:
* Starting this organization,
* Raising money through Kickstarter
----Under the condition that a league, whether proleague or starleague format, brings in Korean Amateurs and has English streams. Plus whatever else the community wants. If it doesn't happen, everyone that donated gets their money back.
* Perhaps have a membership fee which goes to prize pools etc. (Inspired by Jaevlaterran's post)
Korean/International Starleague
As this is long term perhaps this can be the next ISL? (In which case we need Game's? input.)
If not we could always attempt to collaborate to start a Korean Starleague but allow foreigners to qualify.
If we want to Strengthen the Foreign Brood War Scene there is no better thread than this one.
+ Show Spoiler +
Adding Game Features
Making the game more accessible and enjoyable in general. MoC's Chaos Plugins were amazing but we need to take up the torch i think.
Calling all Gosu Programmers.
1. Automatic Port Forwarding
2. Plugin to fix W7 Color Problem
3. ELO Ranking on ICCUP (Keep letter ranks and seasons, just have a lifetime ELO rank attached so noobs can dodge?)
4. Enhance Resolution Plugin (Force AA/Image sharpening maybe as some GPU's don't do this)
5. Android Apps that link to ICCUP (like the awesome Fish server chat app)
Knocking Down the Language Barrier
* Talk To Me in Korean
* TL Learn Korean Thread
Thanks to Stratos for pointing these out to me.
* Memrise
Volunteers:
Translators
Starburst
CaucasianAsian
Artists
quuad (3d artist/animator)
Casters
Starburst
sCCrooked
Volunteers Still Needed
Translators
Artists
Programmers
Techs for possible help setting up streams/etc.
Casters
Anything else I can't think of?
All constructive critiques and ideas are very welcome
Making the game more accessible and enjoyable in general. MoC's Chaos Plugins were amazing but we need to take up the torch i think.
Calling all Gosu Programmers.
1. Automatic Port Forwarding
2. Plugin to fix W7 Color Problem
3. ELO Ranking on ICCUP (Keep letter ranks and seasons, just have a lifetime ELO rank attached so noobs can dodge?)
4. Enhance Resolution Plugin (Force AA/Image sharpening maybe as some GPU's don't do this)
5. Android Apps that link to ICCUP (like the awesome Fish server chat app)
Knocking Down the Language Barrier
* Talk To Me in Korean
* TL Learn Korean Thread
Thanks to Stratos for pointing these out to me.
* Memrise
Volunteers:
Translators
Starburst
CaucasianAsian
Artists
quuad (3d artist/animator)
Casters
Starburst
sCCrooked
Volunteers Still Needed
Translators
Artists
Programmers
Techs for possible help setting up streams/etc.
Casters
Anything else I can't think of?
All constructive critiques and ideas are very welcome
+ Show Spoiler [Old Post] +
I'm starting this thread in the hopes of getting some constructive conversation going. How can we help BW thrive?
IMO the Korean clans(n.Die, Neo.G, sea, shield, white, by, etc) are going to be the key to keeping extremely high quality BW going if KeSPA completely switches to SC2. (Though I'm still hoping that doesn't happen) Does anyone know what the Korean clans are planning?
If not perhaps they can replace the current professional teams as the best in Korean BW. Perhaps we can somehow coordinate with them? Get a pay structure to support starleagues? Advertising through twitch etc.
Perhaps we can setup a "kickstarter.com" type funding where everyone can donate money but if it doesn't reach the goal for the starleague no harm done. Everyone gets their money back
A potential setup in collaborating with the koreans could be to have an observer stream to twitch (probably delay 10 min to prevent cheating) with no commentary, just game sounds, then have korean and english casters restream over the top of it? That way we get game sounds and no cheating and the casters can still interact with the chat. Maybe even webcams to see our heroic casters and/or get reactions of players.
Hopefully with a setup like this we can have very high quality with very low overhead.
What ideas do you guys have? How completely terrible are mine? :p
My intention is to update this OP with good ideas if there is some kind of a consensus.
IMO the Korean clans(n.Die, Neo.G, sea, shield, white, by, etc) are going to be the key to keeping extremely high quality BW going if KeSPA completely switches to SC2. (Though I'm still hoping that doesn't happen) Does anyone know what the Korean clans are planning?
If not perhaps they can replace the current professional teams as the best in Korean BW. Perhaps we can somehow coordinate with them? Get a pay structure to support starleagues? Advertising through twitch etc.
Perhaps we can setup a "kickstarter.com" type funding where everyone can donate money but if it doesn't reach the goal for the starleague no harm done. Everyone gets their money back
A potential setup in collaborating with the koreans could be to have an observer stream to twitch (probably delay 10 min to prevent cheating) with no commentary, just game sounds, then have korean and english casters restream over the top of it? That way we get game sounds and no cheating and the casters can still interact with the chat.
Maybe even webcams to see our heroic casters and/or get reactions of players.Hopefully with a setup like this we can have very high quality with very low overhead.
What ideas do you guys have? How completely terrible are mine? :p
My intention is to update this OP with good ideas if there is some kind of a consensus.
