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BW For Life! or Helping BW Thrive

Forum Index > BW General
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1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 Next All
maltey
Profile Joined August 2011
United States38 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-01 04:50:10
April 27 2012 23:34 GMT
#1

Important: As foreigners we already have some awesome events such as the Altitude ISL, Gambit's Cup, and Noise's Amateur StarLeague to name a few currently running. The intention of this thread is only to strengthen these events and the community by uniting the Korean and International scenes as well as incorporating any other good ideas the community might come up with.

Please remember to watch and support the ISL and all the other amazing foreigner events.


Our Current Goal: To organize a community effort to support amateur Starleagues and Proleagues with the Korean Amateur scene and to strengthen the community in any way possible.

CakeOrI)eath's must-read epic post to understand this thread:
On May 01 2012 13:17 CakeOrI)eath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 01 2012 10:45 CaucasianAsian wrote:
Like I said, I'm willing to organize anything that has to do with Koreans.

If people are interested in korean events, I can get VODs or replays (sometimes). If Foreigners are interested in starting a team for the fish clan league, I can help set it up. If foreigners are interested in a show match vs korean amateurs or ex-pro gamers I can set it up.

I admit I don't follow foreign starcraft at all. I don't know who the good foreign players are, and I haven't played iccup beyond gem league in a long long time. I played on fish solely for the past year, and brainclan for a year or two before that.

If people are interested in watching high level gaming for their own entertainment using their own hard earned money then I will do whatever I can to make it happen. If they want to see JoeSmith55 play against a 1500+ (I think that's really low of an ELO personally to warrant a showmatch for money, but that's my own opinion) Korean then I will do what I can.

I didn't say I was going to do this blind, I was peaking interest and if people were interested in donating / helping out / watching then we would have somewhere to go.

But we already have quite a bit of foreign only events (ISL, Gambit Cups, etc...) and if people want to see the highest level matches they can when no more BW is playing on the professional level, then this can be a way to do it.


I agree with CaucasianAsian. We might have lost most of the good foreigner players and even tournaments to sc2 (TSL etc.) but we still have some foreign only tourneys and events. Game, along with others, have done remarkable work keeping those alive.

The true thing that many of us fear losing is the professional sc1 Korean scene and broadcasts. To me this thread is about keeping the spirit of that alive and available to foreigners to watch. This might just mean finding better ways to tune into Korean amateur tournaments that are already going on (and possibly donating to them). It might mean funding our own tourney for the Koreans to play in. Either would mean crossing a lot of cultural barriers.

I honestly don't know why its so hard for foreigners to access fish/afreeka. It seems the Koreans have no interest in making themselves available to us either through ignorance, apathy, or national pride (sc is Korean sport, gtfo everyone else). At the end of the day it doesn't really matter what reason it is, that's where the money comes in. If we make it clear we are willing to pay to watch high level bw, I'm confident that will change most of their attitudes.

To start off that money is going to have to come mostly, if not entirely, from viewer donations. I think we all agree we don't want a pay wall since we want to grow viewership, not kill it. While that model might actually be sustainable, I am personally hoping that we could actually grow viewership to the point that advertisers would be tempted to take over, or at least help. Either way, that is a long way off and it'ss assuming the KR progamers fully switch over to sc2 (I personally am still hoping they switch back to sc1 after this one year, and none of this will matter but I know its wishful thinking)

The thing I will agree with Game about is mixing the foreigners in. As much as I would LOVE to see our best players at least take a game off of the top KR amateurs, it just isn't going to happen. I certainly wouldn't bar them from entering but only invite them if they have a legit chance of winning a BO3-BO5. A 50-50 mix would mean so many walkovers it would just be a waste of time for everyone.


+ Show Spoiler +
Short Term:

IMO the quickest and best results we can get is to do as BLinD-RawR suggested and raise funds for a Korean Clan League tourney with all star foreigner clan.

* According to kjwcj:
---1 to 2 day tourney = ~200$
---ISL length tourney = ~2000$
---koreans will be reluctant to stream anything but afreeca though they may be ok with dual afreeca/twitch stream
---biggest problem should be communication/time logistics
---our community is totally capable of accomplishing our goal if we can overcome the logistics
* + Show Spoiler [kjwcj's very informative post] +

On April 28 2012 17:38 kjwcj wrote:
Before trying to do anything with the Koreans, you have to accept that you're never going to get them off Afreeca entirely. The main reason for this is that the return per viewer on Afreeca, by way of the balloon donation system, is so much greater than that of Twitch or its competitors.

For example, HiyA broadcasts to an average audience of 500-600 people 5-6 nights a week. By the standards of an SC2 or LoL stream on Twitch, this is small potatoes. However, HiyA receives enough donations from this relatively small viewer base to earn a decent living. This is the case for any number of other ex-pro broadcasters who also rarely attract more than 600 viewers but are still able to make streaming Starcraft their full time occupation.

Obviously, there are possible compromises. In the past, Nada has dual broadcasted to Afreeca and Twitch by running Xsplit and the Afreeca Broadcasting software in tandem. This is a decent alternative as it would allow the players to earn something from their foreign audience through Twitch ad revenue without cutting them off from their normal Korean audience. The effort to get something like that set up could potentially be a barrier for entry, as well as actually finding someone to show these guys how to set everything up.

Something that is probably a little bit more straightforward is simply having them come to us. A few hundred thousand won (ie. a few hundred USD) is a normal prize pool for a 1-2 day event featuring all the top ex and semi pro players. For a longer ISL scale event two million won (a bit less than two thousand USD) has been a rough average for the tournaments I've seen in the past six months. Obviously these aren't small amounts of money for just one person to be stumping up but they're not that different to the prize pools that we see in foreign events, so with a mix of sponsorship and donations it might be possible.

The logistics involved in organising a tournament with mainly or all Korean players has a lot of difficulties and not just those related to the language barrier. Simply having the connections to get in contact with the players you want to invite has its potential difficulties, as well as organising a way for the games to be played at a time that is reasonable for both the players and the audience. Replay casts are very uncommon in the Korean amateur tournaments I've seen and keeping the results of games private until the broadcast would be especially difficult given the fact that almost every player streams their FPV during tournament games.

Simply put, it is easily within the power of the existing BW community to put together something worthy of the absolute best that the Korean amateur scene has to offer. The difficulty is in actually making the connection and having them know (and care) that we're here.


Here is a great idea that Jaevlaterran is working on.

I originally wanted to secure funding through kickstarter but after looking more closely at their site it appears they are more geared towards artists, musicians, etc.

So securing funding is our most important task now.

I'm going to follow Game's advice. Let's see if we, as a community can find some sponsorships.
Any Ideas?

+ Show Spoiler [Funding Poll] +

On April 28 2012 22:02 Emon_ wrote:
Let's try to fix funding:
Poll: How much would you donate for a foreigner run tournament?

10$ (18)
 
49%

20$ (9)
 
24%

50$+ (9)
 
24%

50$ (1)
 
3%

37 total votes

Your vote: How much would you donate for a foreigner run tournament?

(Vote): 10$
(Vote): 20$
(Vote): 50$
(Vote): 50$+





Poll: Is this a worthwhile endeavor?

Yes (82)
 
54%

No (56)
 
37%

Not Sure (13)
 
9%

Other (0)
 
0%

151 total votes

Your vote: Is this a worthwhile endeavor?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Not Sure
(Vote): Other



Long term:

Creation of a BW Community Tourney Organization

The creation of a community run Organization whose purpose is to raise funds for and organize StarLeagues in addition to promoting and strengthening the community in general. A sort of benign KeSPA that instead of being controlled by corporations is controlled directly by the Brood War community itself. This one needs lots of discussion in my opinion.

If Pro BW goes under, hopefully we can convince the Korean Clans to join us by:

* Starting this organization,
* Raising money through Kickstarter
----Under the condition that a league, whether proleague or starleague format, brings in Korean Amateurs and has English streams. Plus whatever else the community wants. If it doesn't happen, everyone that donated gets their money back.
* Perhaps have a membership fee which goes to prize pools etc. (Inspired by Jaevlaterran's post)

Korean/International Starleague

As this is long term perhaps this can be the next ISL? (In which case we need Game's? input.)
If not we could always attempt to collaborate to start a Korean Starleague but allow foreigners to qualify.

If we want to Strengthen the Foreign Brood War Scene there is no better thread than this one.
+ Show Spoiler +
Adding Game Features

Making the game more accessible and enjoyable in general. MoC's Chaos Plugins were amazing but we need to take up the torch i think.
Calling all Gosu Programmers.

1. Automatic Port Forwarding
2. Plugin to fix W7 Color Problem
3. ELO Ranking on ICCUP (Keep letter ranks and seasons, just have a lifetime ELO rank attached so noobs can dodge?)
4. Enhance Resolution Plugin (Force AA/Image sharpening maybe as some GPU's don't do this)
5. Android Apps that link to ICCUP (like the awesome Fish server chat app)

Knocking Down the Language Barrier

* Talk To Me in Korean
* TL Learn Korean Thread
Thanks to Stratos for pointing these out to me.
* Memrise

Volunteers:
Translators
Starburst
CaucasianAsian

Artists
quuad (3d artist/animator)

Casters
Starburst
sCCrooked

Volunteers Still Needed
Translators
Artists
Programmers
Techs for possible help setting up streams/etc.
Casters
Anything else I can't think of?

All constructive critiques and ideas are very welcome


+ Show Spoiler [Old Post] +
I'm starting this thread in the hopes of getting some constructive conversation going. How can we help BW thrive?

IMO the Korean clans(n.Die, Neo.G, sea, shield, white, by, etc) are going to be the key to keeping extremely high quality BW going if KeSPA completely switches to SC2. (Though I'm still hoping that doesn't happen) Does anyone know what the Korean clans are planning?

If not perhaps they can replace the current professional teams as the best in Korean BW. Perhaps we can somehow coordinate with them? Get a pay structure to support starleagues? Advertising through twitch etc.

Perhaps we can setup a "kickstarter.com" type funding where everyone can donate money but if it doesn't reach the goal for the starleague no harm done. Everyone gets their money back

A potential setup in collaborating with the koreans could be to have an observer stream to twitch (probably delay 10 min to prevent cheating) with no commentary, just game sounds, then have korean and english casters restream over the top of it? That way we get game sounds and no cheating and the casters can still interact with the chat. Maybe even webcams to see our heroic casters and/or get reactions of players.

Hopefully with a setup like this we can have very high quality with very low overhead.

What ideas do you guys have? How completely terrible are mine? :p

My intention is to update this OP with good ideas if there is some kind of a consensus.
"Be relentlessly positive." "There's nothing cooler than being proud of what you love." --day[9]
Gamegene
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States8308 Posts
April 27 2012 23:36 GMT
#2
There's nothing the foreign scene can do for BW in Korea besides moral support and positive messages.
Throw on your favorite jacket and you're good to roll. Stroll through the trees and let your miseries go.
Darksoldierr
Profile Joined May 2010
Hungary2012 Posts
April 27 2012 23:37 GMT
#3
Agreed, if you could have done anything, Kespa would have come to us ealier.
What do humans know of our pain? We have sung songs of lament since before your ancestors crawled on their bellies from the sea.
blubbdavid
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Switzerland2412 Posts
April 27 2012 23:41 GMT
#4
Maybe someone opens an account on Afreeca solely for foreigners to donate money. Must be someone trustworthy.
What do you desire? Money? Glory? Power? Revenge? Or something that surpasses all other? Whatever you desire - that is here. Tower of God ¦¦Nutella, drink of the Gods
maltey
Profile Joined August 2011
United States38 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-27 23:50:13
April 27 2012 23:48 GMT
#5
Maybe I was unclear? I have no intention of doing anything with kespa. That would be unproductive at best I think. I'm hoping for stuff more along the lines of taking the scene into the community's own hands so we can't be betrayed by stupidity again.

I'm talking Altitude ISL type starleagues for the Korean clans in the future and actively giving our monetary support (hopefully mostly through advertising/donating to prize pools) as well as moral support.

And of course I was hoping folks could contribute other ideas as well

Edit: I like the idea of the Afreeca account. Maybe majaeyoon or bgvrt?

Edit 2: Hopefully the above post didn't come across as bm. It was intended to be the opposite :p
"Be relentlessly positive." "There's nothing cooler than being proud of what you love." --day[9]
CaucasianAsian
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
Korea (South)11577 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-28 00:19:23
April 28 2012 00:19 GMT
#6
On April 28 2012 08:41 blubbdavid wrote:
Maybe someone opens an account on Afreeca solely for foreigners to donate money. Must be someone trustworthy.



whenever i want to watch afreeca streams (vods work fine) i keep getting a message saying they don't allow foreigner IP's
Calendar@ Fish Server: `iOps]..Stark
Ideas
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States8097 Posts
April 28 2012 00:23 GMT
#7
I would love to see some synergy between the foreign community and the amateur korean community, but I wouldn't even know how to begin lol
Free Palestine
Iway
Profile Joined December 2011
France163 Posts
April 28 2012 00:24 GMT
#8
i'm too dumb to help but i'm positively supporting this topic.

maltey
Profile Joined August 2011
United States38 Posts
April 28 2012 00:40 GMT
#9
On April 28 2012 09:23 Ideas wrote:
I would love to see some synergy between the foreign community and the amateur korean community, but I wouldn't even know how to begin lol


Thank you. This is exactly what I was going for but didn't know how to put into words. If we can get some synergy between our two communities BW can come back stronger than ever.
Does anyone know the Korean Clans' reactions to the news of the PL hybrid league?
What do people think of my streaming ideas (in OP)? Are they at all viable?
"Be relentlessly positive." "There's nothing cooler than being proud of what you love." --day[9]
Starburst
Profile Joined November 2011
United States108 Posts
April 28 2012 00:57 GMT
#10
I'd be down to help. Ozzie, we could go to SK and track down the heads of the clans xd (this is morely btw). I like the idea of streams but i dont know how we could coordinate with the koreans.
maltey
Profile Joined August 2011
United States38 Posts
April 28 2012 01:31 GMT
#11
On April 28 2012 09:57 Starburst wrote:
I'd be down to help. Ozzie, we could go to SK and track down the heads of the clans xd (this is morely btw). I like the idea of streams but i dont know how we could coordinate with the koreans.


Yeah I'm thinking the language barrier is the primary problem right now. We do have a couple of people who can act as go-betweens--Optical Shot and SNM immediately come to mind and I'm sure there's many more.

So if we want to establish a Korean Amateur/International Community to support amateur StarLeagues/ProLeagues we need:
1. Somewhere on the web to congregate/organize.
a. Hopefully TL cause I love this site but maybe we need something special as I wouldn't want koreans to be forced to use English. Is this an actual problem or all in my head?

2. Translators.
a. A bunch if possible.

3. An established way of funding the Leagues.
a. Paypal, kickstarter, crowdfunding, afreeca, twitch/google advertising etc

4. An established way of streaming.
a. Maybe twitch/own3d won't work very well for Koreans?

5. An Organization
a. Probably one with by-laws to establish responsibilities; deal with problems; etc.
b. Right now I'm picturing something entirely community operated. And totally not-for-profit so that all funds go to the League and community. Hopefully entirely volunteers.
"Be relentlessly positive." "There's nothing cooler than being proud of what you love." --day[9]
fYlddnaHturtDyaWdmAi
Profile Joined February 2012
Israel157 Posts
April 28 2012 01:32 GMT
#12
Maybe someone who's more knowledgable with the BW circuit or Korean scene should initiate this project, no disrespect to the OP.
"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
supernovamaniac
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States3046 Posts
April 28 2012 01:36 GMT
#13
On April 28 2012 10:31 maltey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2012 09:57 Starburst wrote:
I'd be down to help. Ozzie, we could go to SK and track down the heads of the clans xd (this is morely btw). I like the idea of streams but i dont know how we could coordinate with the koreans.


Yeah I'm thinking the language barrier is the primary problem right now. We do have a couple of people who can act as go-betweens--Optical Shot and SNM immediately come to mind and I'm sure there's many more.

So if we want to establish a Korean Amateur/International Community to support amateur StarLeagues/ProLeagues we need:
1. Somewhere on the web to congregate/organize.
a. Hopefully TL cause I love this site but maybe we need something special as I wouldn't want koreans to be forced to use English. Is this an actual problem or all in my head?

2. Translators.
a. A bunch if possible.

3. An established way of funding the Leagues.
a. Paypal, kickstarter, crowdfunding, afreeca, twitch/google advertising etc

4. An established way of streaming.
a. Maybe twitch/own3d won't work very well for Koreans?

5. An Organization
a. Probably one with by-laws to establish responsibilities; deal with problems; etc.
b. Right now I'm picturing something entirely community operated. And totally not-for-profit so that all funds go to the League and community. Hopefully entirely volunteers.

You know, when I was in Korea last summer, I tried to get the word 'TL' on OGN/MBC broadcast as much as possible. It's not that they don't know it exists; they just think that it ain't big because they never spend good quality time here at TL.

I have to say, CJ Entus PR was amazing at promoting streamers/TL though when bbyong held up that sign last year. That was amazing.
ppp
Kergy
Profile Joined December 2010
Peru2011 Posts
April 28 2012 01:50 GMT
#14
On April 28 2012 08:34 maltey wrote:
IMO the Korean clans(n.Die, Neo.G, sea, shield, white, by, etc) are going to be the key to keeping extremely high quality BW going if KeSPA completely switches to SC2. (Though I'm still hoping that doesn't happen) Does anyone know what the Korean clans are planning?


Shield is already playing SC2.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309945
Everyday Girl's Day~!
maltey
Profile Joined August 2011
United States38 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-28 02:07:15
April 28 2012 01:56 GMT
#15
On April 28 2012 10:32 fYlddnaHturtDyaWdmAi wrote:
Maybe someone who's more knowledgable with the BW circuit or Korean scene should initiate this project, no disrespect to the OP.

That would be perfect I have been following BW avidly since 2009 but you're right: There are many people more qualified than I am. I just wanted someone to start this conversation and tell me it was a good or bad idea so I could get it out of my head.

On April 28 2012 10:36 supernovamaniac wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2012 10:31 maltey wrote:
On April 28 2012 09:57 Starburst wrote:
I'd be down to help. Ozzie, we could go to SK and track down the heads of the clans xd (this is morely btw). I like the idea of streams but i dont know how we could coordinate with the koreans.


Yeah I'm thinking the language barrier is the primary problem right now. We do have a couple of people who can act as go-betweens--Optical Shot and SNM immediately come to mind and I'm sure there's many more.

So if we want to establish a Korean Amateur/International Community to support amateur StarLeagues/ProLeagues we need:
1. Somewhere on the web to congregate/organize.
a. Hopefully TL cause I love this site but maybe we need something special as I wouldn't want koreans to be forced to use English. Is this an actual problem or all in my head?

2. Translators.
a. A bunch if possible.

3. An established way of funding the Leagues.
a. Paypal, kickstarter, crowdfunding, afreeca, twitch/google advertising etc

4. An established way of streaming.
a. Maybe twitch/own3d won't work very well for Koreans?

5. An Organization
a. Probably one with by-laws to establish responsibilities; deal with problems; etc.
b. Right now I'm picturing something entirely community operated. And totally not-for-profit so that all funds go to the League and community. Hopefully entirely volunteers.

You know, when I was in Korea last summer, I tried to get the word 'TL' on OGN/MBC broadcast as much as possible. It's not that they don't know it exists; they just think that it ain't big because they never spend good quality time here at TL.

I have to say, CJ Entus PR was amazing at promoting streamers/TL though when bbyong held up that sign last year. That was amazing.

I'm hoping that if Pro BW goes under we can convince the Korean Clans differently. For example, we start an organization, then that org starts a kickstarter. International BW fans donate to the kickstarter under the conditions of a Korean Clan StarLeague with English streams or something like that. If it gets big enough that should attract some attention of the Koreans right? If it doesn't get big enough, everyone gets their money back and no harm done.

You have more knowledge than most when it comes to Korean scene. Is a hybrid amateur Korean/International scene possible? Keep in mind I'm talking about the clans and not KeSPA as I think KeSPA is a lost cause.

EDIT:
On April 28 2012 10:50 Kergy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2012 08:34 maltey wrote:
IMO the Korean clans(n.Die, Neo.G, sea, shield, white, by, etc) are going to be the key to keeping extremely high quality BW going if KeSPA completely switches to SC2. (Though I'm still hoping that doesn't happen) Does anyone know what the Korean clans are planning?


Shield is already playing SC2.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309945


Ah Damn. But we don't need them all for this to work and I'd imagine we could spark the creation of a few new ones if it does work. *Crosses Fingers*
"Be relentlessly positive." "There's nothing cooler than being proud of what you love." --day[9]
hifriend
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
China7935 Posts
April 28 2012 01:56 GMT
#16
If some of you bw passionates would log in on iccup every once in a while so that I didn't have to endlessly search for ladder games, that would be a step in the right direction.
Le French
Profile Joined December 2011
France782 Posts
April 28 2012 02:23 GMT
#17
On April 28 2012 10:56 hifriend wrote:
If some of you bw passionates would log in on iccup every once in a while so that I didn't have to endlessly search for ladder games, that would be a step in the right direction.

True. Iccup is so desolate nowadays. I remember when you could literally join all the games you want and be playing 20-30 games in a matter of 2 hours. Those were fun times.
Ca va?
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10154 Posts
April 28 2012 02:44 GMT
#18
maybe some more team or clan things to get bw back on its feet. maybe people will recognize we aren't dead. ill try to get more on iccup and hope others will follow.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
TBone-
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2309 Posts
April 28 2012 02:49 GMT
#19
If there was something that the foreign brood war community could of done, I'm sure it would of happened already. This is one of the most passionate communities I've ever seen.
Eve online FC, lover of all competition
L3gendary
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1470 Posts
April 28 2012 03:00 GMT
#20
It would be cool if we could get them to stream on twitch or something. I'd definitely follow any interclan leagues or even just streaming random games.
Watching Jaedong play purifies my eyes. -Coach Ju Hoon
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