EPTWorst unit in BW?
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tree
United States591 Posts
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Manifesto7
Osaka27140 Posts
from this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=21380 PS. I hate this subject. SC is the best game in the world for a reason. | ||
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Meta
United States6225 Posts
i'm gonna have to say the queen +_+ | ||
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AgonyRush
United States2540 Posts
On December 12 2004 13:15 Meta wrote: i've seen scouts own i'm gonna have to say the queen +_+ hahahaahahaha | ||
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Manifesto7
Osaka27140 Posts
... | ||
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EntiTy.
United States80 Posts
Every unit has its own purpose ~_~ | ||
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emerton
Norway167 Posts
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Gynecomas
15 Posts
In short, its impossible to determine the worst unit in bw as they all have their purposes  | ||
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z3rgy
Korea (South)100 Posts
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cYaN
Norway3322 Posts
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Famouzze
971 Posts
has some uses but is incredibly expensive, both in min-gas and for its spells' mana cost, for something that really fucking blows and has an incredibly small window of usefulness. if maelstrom lasted a lot longer or MC was a lot less expensive in mana cost it would be remotely useful, as it is it BARELY has any use at all, mael can be effective vrs zerg and same with feedback on defilers. MC vs terran is fun but incredibly not cost effective. on the other hand scout has literally 0 cases in which it is useful / cost efficient. | ||
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Famouzze
971 Posts
On December 12 2004 13:12 Manifesto7 wrote: http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=26971 from this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=21380 PS. I hate this subject. SC is the best game in the world for a reason. im just curious, why do you hate it when ppl discuss the actual gameplay of BW so much? u are the guy who closed the imbalance thread, yes? what is so wrong with discussing the actual playing of the game? even though it has been diuscussed before, i think that is to be expected in a forum about the game.. | ||
mrmin123
Korea (South)2971 Posts
i mean, the number of dud scarabs ive fired is fucking annoying. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28635 Posts
I'll kill anyone who says queen I also really love maelstrom and I don't think it should be improved. | ||
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Manifesto7
Osaka27140 Posts
On December 12 2004 13:32 Famouzze wrote: im just curious, why do you hate it when ppl discuss the actual gameplay of BW so much? u are the guy who closed the imbalance thread, yes? what is so wrong with discussing the actual playing of the game? even though it has been diuscussed before, i think that is to be expected in a forum about the game.. I have no problem with discussing the gameplay at all. The imbalence thread was closed because it is a discussion that has occured a hundred times on this board, and after the first 63 comments there wasn't anything new being said. I just dont like the "worst unit" idea. I think under certain situations, every units is useful and one of the biggest problems with BW is how play has become so standardized. With a little imagination, there really isn't a bad unit. All of them can be used effectively, these days even more so because people are so not used to seeing them. ok I'll get off my soap box, but maybe its just because I have a soft spot for the scout? I just dont see the value in it. You notice though, that I didn't close this PS. Watch that game i posted, it was fun. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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Manifesto7
Osaka27140 Posts
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yOOysi
Poland726 Posts
I think medic and queen is useful... | ||
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evanthebouncy
China491 Posts
they are rarely used after MnM proved to be so useful | ||
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HowitZer
United States1610 Posts
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Veigh
Netherlands300 Posts
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Empyrean
16977 Posts
 I'd have to say Broodling too, though sometimes it's useful to Broodling a Templar. Devourers rank up there too, but I'm sticking with Broodling. | ||
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EnDeR_
Spain2639 Posts
On December 12 2004 14:01 This-is-not-a-smurf wrote: I'd say Drone. I mean, who uses Drones anyway? I'd have to say Broodling too, though sometimes it's useful to Broodling a Templar. Devourers rank up there too, but I'm sticking with Broodling. I guess you've never battled a host of sairs, have you? Without devourers, zerg air is so fucking weak... | ||
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Beast_Bg
Bulgaria1623 Posts
Whoever said DAs obviously has no vision of the game whatsoever.Feedback and Mind Control are actually overpowered.The DA is the spellcaster killer + the perfect counter for expensive units -Mind Control.Maelstrom is a bit tricky to use ,but can be efficient in some situations.When fighting air and ultras for example. | ||
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Famouzze
971 Posts
On December 12 2004 14:06 Beast_Bg wrote: The scout is NEARLY useless at the current state of the game. Whoever said DAs obviously has no vision of the game whatsoever.Feedback and Mind Control are actually overpowered.The DA is the spellcaster killer + the perfect counter for expensive units -Mind Control.Maelstrom is a bit tricky to use ,but can be efficient in some situations.When fighting air and ultras for example. hahaha...i'd be willing to 1:1 you and show you how much vision i have, and maybe even win without using DAs  you play terran right? you're telling me you find yourself fearing DAs as the protoss unit? mael owning your tanks? or is it the dreaded MC an SCV and build a fleet of wraiths? edit: i did say mael has some uses in pvz, and same with feedback, but its incredibly hard, or at least harder than it should be, to make it cost effective...it can be used very well but its so expensive a unit for such a small window of effectiveness....anyway...i'd love to see u back up that "no vision of the game whatsoever" claim in 1:1...this from the guy who just got owned in europe vs americas and is well known as the WCG pure-luck wonderchild...rofl. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
On December 12 2004 13:55 HowitZer wrote: It's gotta be broodling. I'd love to see a replay where someone used broodling to change a game. Gorush vs. Kenka | ||
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weedlover
Greece174 Posts
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A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
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Destroyer
Czech Republic931 Posts
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
Only newbs need them. They suck with the Goliath range improvement and Zerg > carriers. | ||
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Vashp2
63 Posts
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oPtioNaLk
Korea (South)564 Posts
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
On December 12 2004 14:10 Famouzze wrote: hahaha...i'd be willing to 1:1 you and show you how much vision i have, and maybe even win without using DAs you play terran right? you're telling me you find yourself fearing DAs as the protoss unit? mael owning your tanks? or is it the dreaded MC an SCV and build a fleet of wraiths? edit: i did say mael has some uses in pvz, and same with feedback, but its incredibly hard, or at least harder than it should be, to make it cost effective...it can be used very well but its so expensive a unit for such a small window of effectiveness....anyway...i'd love to see u back up that "no vision of the game whatsoever" claim in 1:1...this from the guy who just got owned in europe vs americas and is well known as the WCG pure-luck wonderchild...rofl. Are you fucking serious? Beast will slap you upside the face with his penis so hard you will be crying Bulgarian sperm for weeks. I've seen you say some pretty stupid things over the week but this takes the fucking cake. | ||
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8882
2718 Posts
infested terrans could have 80hp archons/queens could be change a bit scouts could cost a little bit less | ||
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RoTaNiMoD
United States558 Posts
BCs almost never pop up outside TvT and if they were gone, neither side in the TvT can use them. Though it IS the prime way to get out of deadlocks in TvT.... Scouts are just rarely good in general. | ||
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pfff
Belgium1352 Posts
if queens were used more da might be more usefull, if there would be no da, queens might be used more, now none of them are used | ||
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Taguchi
Greece1575 Posts
 plus last time i mixed 4 valks with my 30 wraiths vs my opponents ~40 wraiths the valks bugged and never fired a single shot(too many sprites for them eh? screw them i say!) so id give the valkyrie the worst unit award | ||
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RedMeat
United Kingdom490 Posts
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baal
10535 Posts
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ieatkids5
United States4628 Posts
On December 12 2004 13:51 evanthebouncy wrote: Firebats... they are rarely used after MnM proved to be so useful Firebats > Zerg | ||
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KH1031
United States862 Posts
Garimto used scout vs Boxer...back in the old days...although he lost that game, but definitely fun to see unorthodox strategy...and it's quite effective harassing with some micro queen, ask chojja how it could be gosu -broodling...it doesn't cost any money, so technically it's the most cost effective (actually...you gotta make a queen, research broodling, and cost 150mana...so...not really free )least cost efficient...mmm...i think infested terran...because given the condition, you will be facing a terran, and vs terran melee suicide ground unit is not quite viable imo. i think ghost should be up there too... 75 gas is just too taxing to make them in masses...and they're fragile. lockdown is a plus but requires too much micro... well...nuke is a really nice one...too bad no one incorporates it as a part of strategy. of course, there are exceptions for ghost...see Pimpest Play 2002 on sclegacy | ||
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pooper-scooper
United States3108 Posts
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SoleSteeler
Canada5415 Posts
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jtan
Sweden5891 Posts
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LetMeBeWithYou
Canada4254 Posts
and wow i cant believe people mention Firebat in here I say Infested Terran its SO RARELY used i never seen it being used =\ and what kind Terran let zerg fly away with a infested CC? | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28635 Posts
On December 12 2004 15:10 RedMeat wrote: Oh come on, who's counting broodlings which are a byproduct of killings tanks and templar etc, why not count mind-controlled critters if you're going to do that :/. Infested terrans are shite but they are also a byproduct of knocking a lot of hitpoints of a command centre so they aren't really the point of infesting anyways. Scout is worst obviously but there's other units that have virtually no useful role like ghosts and arbiters (okay arbiters are nice but the build time and tech required means it's only worth going for them one game in a hundred and likewise once in a lifetime you'll need ghosts to win). Dark archon and queen have their flaws but they are at least useable in a fair number of games if you're playing against the right strategies/units. there are many protoss players who get arbiter in pretty much every pvt that lasts longer than 20 minutes. arbiters are in fact really, really, really good, and pretty much the only unit that can change the outcome of a game "alone". (as in you only need one of them. although having 10 arbiters is fucking awesome too cause you're always fighting against 1/3 of his full force. ^_^ ) ghosts are very sweet vs carriers if you're rich on gas also very sweet vs bcs | ||
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hasuwar
7365 Posts
I can't believe someone said queen, LOL DarkArchon has a ton of practical uses..don't know what that guy on the front page was thinking. MC's cost is so expensive because it can enable you to control two races..that doesn't come cheap, sorry. Feedback is wicked vs anything with mana.. for 50 mana, you jew them big time, especially templars. Maelstrom vs mutas.. 1 mael and 1 storm and there goes that guy's 12 harassing mutas.. DA is definantly not useless | ||
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3470 Posts
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LTT
Shakuras1095 Posts
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VdP]EpiphaNy
United Kingdom992 Posts
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nullmind
1303 Posts
On December 12 2004 13:51 evanthebouncy wrote: Firebats... they are rarely used after MnM proved to be so useful Adding firebats make HUGE difference in M&M. Adding 2-3 firebats to your army will be more helpful stomping on sunkens than without them. | ||
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
yeah scout sight range is the only TOTALLY useless upgrade in bw | ||
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
Hrm, does creeps count? They're not too hot either...But really, scout is THE weakest basic fighting unit in the game, and there isn't really any role that other combination of units does better and more cost efficiently. The only window of opportunity for scouts to be useful is a weird do or die scoutrush to hurt the opponents economy if he hasn't airdefences yet. Infested terran also is really bad... Hrm, dark archons use is limited unless playing bgh$$$$, or in certain situations. Most of the time those two dark templars are better to have plus you don't need to research spells and micro them as much. arbiter isn't too hot either when you look at how expensive it is, build time, tech level required, spell research etc. Once you have them though it's like so cool, and you almost cry when they get shot down because of all the effort you went through just to get them. Battlecruiser is best used against terran, which get it a fairly low rating as well in my book, but then again it can sometimes be indispensable to break a stalemate. Ghost would be a so much better unit if missile silos wouldn't have to be attached to CCs where you most of the time want at least 3 scanners so... Lockdown is kind of neat if your micro is better than boxers and the situation allows for it. 1) infested terran (just too darn crappy) 2) scout (just too darn nerfed) 3) ghost (too much micro needed, expenses, tech etc) 4) dark archon (too limited use, too expensive.) | ||
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nbwl
4 Posts
(unless you count supply) | ||
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
No more posting for you. | ||
Smurg
Australia3818 Posts
On December 12 2004 16:20 nbwl wrote: You guys are crazy, adviously the most useless unit is the overlord. (unless you count supply) ...and drops, sight, sight harrass, decoys. ....It's the equivalent of pylon, dropship and observer all in one, once upgraded. I'd say its one of the most important Zerg units. | ||
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GroT
Belgium3003 Posts
(you have to pay to get it just like any other unit, and you never should cause they suck like no tomorrow) | ||
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s.taro
Canada172 Posts
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LastWish
2013 Posts
On December 12 2004 14:27 weedlover wrote: I ll agree with Manifesto7 that there is actually no "worst unit" in this game as its perfect. ill explain this as to some units mentioned as worst units. Broodlings, broodlings can be used to kill instantly High Templars also you could use em to kill some workers of your opponent. Scouts, scouts are really good air units. Dark archons, it has great spells. scourge??? are u kidding me??? everyone uses scourges and they are very effective in air and in killing observers. you all knew that but i wanted to show you that all the units in this game are important, there is not an uneccesary unit thus not a worst unit, they are all good. :list Well i guess your brain is not so perfect. Just wake up. There is no perfect game, as some things may seem perfect at the beginning they grow flawed overtime and need to be fixed. And yes Scout is the most useless unit in the game - it is slow,expensive ground attack sux,large size and 0 armor. Need to be upgraded for speed(200 200) this upgrade is in fleet beacon so u can already start producing carriers. Have u ever imagined 2 scout cost = 1 carrier, u decide which one is better. If u see one of the patches 1.0x the scout cost was decreased but the ground attack was slowed 25%. To make this unit better the speed upgrade should be decreased to 100 100, armor increased to 2 and ground attack cool back to as in 1.0x. | ||
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LetMeBeWithYou
Canada4254 Posts
On December 12 2004 14:55 MiniRoman wrote: Are you fucking serious? Beast will slap you upside the face with his penis so hard you will be crying Bulgarian sperm for weeks. I've seen you say some pretty stupid things over the week but this takes the fucking cake. hahaha owned and whos that famouzzzz guy? | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
hmm they are not that bad if you think about it. of course they are bound to die but so are so many other units. out of 20 zlots in a pvz game id say that atleast 10 die in every attack. :/ broodlings imo are good when you force the tanks to splash eachother. 1 spawn broodlings in a group of tanks can mean that it kills more than 1 tank. scouts are awesome vs large air, especially bcs. evan said firebats......... wtf firebats own. one of the few units that do damage under swarm for terran. massecres small units. especially workers. OMG IM GONNA SAY CRAP ABOUT EVERY UNIT. lol im procrastinating my paper. terran: scv: highest life worker. marine: easy to micro, cheap, really strong in numbers, upgrades make them so much stronger. medic: heal duh firebat: small unit ownage vulture: 75 min = 20 damage + 125x3 = thx tank: one of the best ground units in the game, huge range, great damage. goliath: huge air range and owns small ground units. dropship: the dreaded 7 marine 1 medic drop or the cliffed 2 tank drop wraith: great in small and large numbers. cloaking field. valk: pretty much owns almost every air unit in the game en mass. sci vessel: free scan, great spells, especially irradiate. bcs: huge damage, huge life, yamato, high armor. ghost: the nuke, the lockdown, the cloak, what more can i say .ok now next zerg larva: crazy armor, makes every unit drone: basic worker, heals life, ranged attack. zergling: fastest fighter built, one of the best rush units, 2 per egg, one of the fastest units in the game. hydra: hits air and ground, cheap, great ups, makes lurkers. overlord: huge life scout, transport, observer, meat shield. mutalisk: so freaken fast, bounce attack, massacres workers, good in every matchup. scourge: probably the most cost efficient attack in the game, 2 per egg, really fast. queen: great spells, can make infested ccs which means you only have to take down the cc only about 2/3 of the health. a bit more. lurker: splash damage, good range, burrow, pretty fast movement, great contain unit, great offensive and defensive. guardian: huge range, nice damage, kills marines. devourer: acid spores slow and weaken, nice damage, huge life and armor bonus. best air support unit. splash. defiler: nearly infinite mana with consume and zerglings, really really really effective spells, best in the game imo. ultralisk: come on... need i say more. look at the name. ultralisk. huge life armor speed upgrades damage. broodling: free 2 units after killing any ground bionic and machine unit (other than reaver). can make tanks splash eachother. good way to take out strong ground units. ie ultras tanks templars. infested terran: splash damage, 500 damage , kills supply depots in 1 hit + 1 second for burn. can burrow, bombing runs .now saving the best for last protoss: probe: can build without staying, ranged attack, imo best attack worker in the game. zlot: huge health, nice damage, speed up .dragoon: good price, nice range, nice speed, easy to micro, good health, nice damage. high templar: merge to make archon one of the best splash units in the game, spells are amazing storm usage OMGGG, easy on the minerals, great defensive units especially vs dark swarm (also known as the zerg bulls eye ) and defending fortresses on islands.dark templar: HUGE damage, invisible, can make dark archon, upgrades are really nice. prevents expos. archon: huge shields, splash, nice damage, owns mutas, pretty fast, can hit air. dark archon: spells used correctly are devastating, mind control enemy units. observer: upgrades make them fast and have huge range, vital for pvt, obviously reveals invis units, also is invisible, dare i say turret bug? lol. nice way to have eyes all over the map. shuttle: fastest transport unit after upgrade. the reaver drop, the dt-pickup-after-scan-drop. reaver: splash damage, huge damage, nice in the mineral line, slow movement is completely ignored due to shuttle movement speed. scout: huge damage, huge speed, a lot of upgrades, obviously a good scout . haha kills bcs and carriers.corsair: hurts zerg, splash damage, upgrades are just like the marines but better , en mass really hard to take down until devourers, has a freaken SPELL OMG, ait combat unit with a spell???!?!?!??carrier: huge life, huge shield, cheap upgrades, 8 inters per carrier, hard to beat in packs,nice movement, hard to take down microwise, can exploit cliffs and water, nice armor. pretty much an ultimate unit if used correctly. arbitor: cloaking field for all other units, huge shield and life, nice spells, can trap units, can keep units from harm with stasis or recall, recall is like having 12 dropships in 1 tiny package, can get into fortresses with anti air and survive due to huge life where as dropships will die to turrets or spores. well thats about it sry for long post . | ||
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LetMeBeWithYou
Canada4254 Posts
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On December 12 2004 13:51 evanthebouncy wrote: Firebats... they are rarely used after MnM proved to be so useful They melt zerglings -_- Few of them are usually mixed with M&M | ||
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Famouzze
971 Posts
On December 12 2004 17:19 LetMeBeWithYou wrote: hahaha owned and whos that famouzzzz guy? wtf? i challenged beast to back up his shit talk and he hasn't responded. u think this means i'm owned? he said MIND CONTROL is OVERPOWERED for christ's sakes, and he said i have "no vision of the game" for not agreeing with this. no one even asked for ur opinion or miniroman's. if beast wants to put his game where his mouth is i'm willing to show him something...until then whatever miniroman thinks of my skills or his dont mean anything...i find u both are acting very pathetic...its pretty sad how some ppl here have no manners at all. what the fuck is ur problem? seriously? u like mind control this much? if u dont even know who i am, then mind your own business... but, if beast continues to dodge after saying such a ridiculous and insulting thing, then that will be even sadder than your random bullshit :< | ||
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maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
Ghosts can at least be used to good effect in top teir tvp and occasioanlly tvt. Boxer can, and has, won games because of his ghosts. However, no zerg user has ever won a game that was not allready won by using infested terrans. SCouts are most DEFFINITELY not the worst unit. They can change a pvt quite easily. Infested terrans can do nothing. | ||
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starofNC
United States1340 Posts
at least among units commonly used in games. Protoss has very few options but the dragoon is by far the STUPIDEST unit in sc.. | ||
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Nova)Cane
United States56 Posts
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Nova)Cane
United States56 Posts
Or an interceptor;; | ||
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VdP]EpiphaNy
United Kingdom992 Posts
On December 12 2004 17:51 starofNC wrote: I would say pound for pound the worst unit is the dragoon at least among units commonly used in games. Protoss has very few options but the dragoon is by far the STUPIDEST unit in sc.. agreed but only because there's no sight range upgrade for the dragoon edit: if there was it should be researched from the arbiter tribunal | ||
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bburn
United States1039 Posts
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
If that is the logic that we are going to use, I will say that the nuke is the worst unit (it takes supply!!). You'll only have them when you have won. | ||
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maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
On December 12 2004 18:24 ProudCappi wrote: Just because infested terrans can't be made until you are about to win doesn't make them the worst. That's like saying that if there were an invinicible unit with 100 attack power that could only be made when your supply is 180 more than your opponent's, than it would be the worst in the game becuase you don't need that unit. If that is the logic that we are going to use, I will say that the nuke is the worst unit (it takes supply!!). You'll only have them when you have won. Can you read? I did not say that infested terran is the worst because it can not be built until the end of the game. I said infested terran is the worst because it will not win a game for you that is not already EFECTIVELY over, as in won. Its a final insult, not a working unit. | ||
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LetMeBeWithYou
Canada4254 Posts
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SChasu
United States1505 Posts
On December 12 2004 17:47 Famouzze wrote: wtf? i challenged beast to back up his shit talk and he hasn't responded. u think this means i'm owned? he said MIND CONTROL is OVERPOWERED for christ's sakes, and he said i have "no vision of the game" for not agreeing with this. no one even asked for ur opinion or miniroman's. if beast wants to put his game where his mouth is i'm willing to show him something...until then whatever miniroman thinks of my skills or his dont mean anything...i find u both are acting very pathetic...its pretty sad how some ppl here have no manners at all. what the fuck is ur problem? seriously? u like mind control this much? if u dont even know who i am, then mind your own business... but, if beast continues to dodge after saying such a ridiculous and insulting thing, then that will be even sadder than your random bullshit :< ^ = corbalt, the protoss named after a transition metal :O | ||
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Hyuuga
107 Posts
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
On December 12 2004 18:27 maleorderbride wrote: Can you read? I did not say that infested terran is the worst because it can not be built until the end of the game. I said infested terran is the worst because it will not win a game for you that is not already EFECTIVELY over, as in won. Its a final insult, not a working unit. Can YOU read!? When you have 180 supply more than your opponent (200 vs 20) than the game is over. That same logic applies to nukes. The only reason you would ever build a nuke is too win with more flair... you already have the game won when you use a nuke. | ||
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lastprobeALIVE
United States973 Posts
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tensionwave
United States66 Posts
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Energies
Australia3225 Posts
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BroOd
Austin10831 Posts
On December 12 2004 19:13 ProudCappi wrote: Can YOU read!? When you have 180 supply more than your opponent (200 vs 20) than the game is over. That same logic applies to nukes. The only reason you would ever build a nuke is too win with more flair... you already have the game won when you use a nuke. Boxer says you're wrong. | ||
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JoeUser
United States684 Posts
On December 12 2004 13:55 HowitZer wrote: It's gotta be broodling. I'd love to see a replay where someone used broodling to change a game. What!?! Didn't you read the Official Prima's Starcraft Strategy Guide? Everybody uses broodlings as a way to get a quick attack force deep behind enemy lines! Just be quiet newb. | ||
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
No one comes back from 20 to 200. Not even boxer. | ||
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Meta
United States6225 Posts
On December 12 2004 14:55 MiniRoman wrote: Are you fucking serious? Beast will slap you upside the face with his penis so hard you will be crying Bulgarian sperm for weeks. I've seen you say some pretty stupid things over the week but this takes the fucking cake. HAHAHAhHHahahahahah that was wonderful~ | ||
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karelen
Sweden2407 Posts
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mightypenny_ph
Philippines259 Posts
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AirMouse
Canada106 Posts
On December 12 2004 17:47 Famouzze wrote: wtf? i challenged beast to back up his shit talk and he hasn't responded. u think this means i'm owned? he said MIND CONTROL is OVERPOWERED for christ's sakes, and he said i have "no vision of the game" for not agreeing with this. no one even asked for ur opinion or miniroman's. if beast wants to put his game where his mouth is i'm willing to show him something...until then whatever miniroman thinks of my skills or his dont mean anything...i find u both are acting very pathetic...its pretty sad how some ppl here have no manners at all. what the fuck is ur problem? seriously? u like mind control this much? if u dont even know who i am, then mind your own business... but, if beast continues to dodge after saying such a ridiculous and insulting thing, then that will be even sadder than your random bullshit :< Corbalt vs beast gogo ~~ | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
On December 12 2004 17:33 ProudCappi wrote: akh-gosu: I can't respond to everything, but valks are extremely expensive, ghosts suck, nukes suck, and eveything here is wrong: "scout: huge damage, huge speed, a lot of upgrades, obviously a good scout . haha kills bcs and carriers." ok let me respond to what you wrote valks expensive yes but en mass they can take out about 80 mutas or carriers in a few seconds. trust me. they are good. ghost suck. nuke suck. are you kidding me? nuke lands pretty fast imo and if you cant find that ghost in a few seconds you could end up losing an expo or two. and ghost lockdown is really strong vs carriers and tvt.i think you just dont know how to use ghosts. :/ and everything here is wrong? obviously everything isnt wrong. scout does have huge anti air damage, speed is wrong i meant upgrades they do have a lot of upgrades and they are good scouts and they do kill large air units. | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
On December 12 2004 17:30 LetMeBeWithYou wrote: I agree most on your list but you never said the worst unit t.t;; what i meant was that there is no bad unit in this game. | ||
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
On December 12 2004 22:49 ahk-gosu wrote: what i meant was that there is no bad unit in this game. Except ghosts and scouts. Bad units have their uses too. | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
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thelucas
Slovakia285 Posts
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pheered.user
United States2603 Posts
PvP: 1.Vs Carriers, possible the best counter to a carrier, maybe following mind control or stasis 2.When a protoss is trying to harass you with a speed shuttle the entire game and you get very frustrated I have actually made a couple scouts to deal with this and would do it again. PvZ: 1. If your opponet opens with 12hat in main gets enough lings than expands try going scout some time instead of sair, also scouts are much better to use in general vs overlrods because they kill them so much quicker, downside is though they cost more and build slower than sair. 2. Scouts+dweb can harass better than one might think. PvT: 1. Scouts work about the same vs Battlecruisers as they do carriers 2. Opening with a stargate build will often times confuse a terran player 3. Same properties as when someone is harassing you with dropships make a few scouts i guarantee they will stop trying to drop you as soon as you scare the piss out of them with your scouts although carriers are probably a much better idea i have used scouts too when i diddnt think carriers were logical. In FFA's, Scouts are the best unit in large numbers they will rape any ground attack force and eat air units in no time although i would definitely get a few sair for dweb sair + dweb are the best unit combination in ffa's. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28635 Posts
on the other hand, I'm certain I've built more infested terrans than anyone else on this forum. they're horrible and they have hardly ever been cost effective. if they were like templars and had 0 attack however their explosion was a spell, they would be awesome though. I mean, you can very occasionally pull off some cute stuff. e.g. drop 2 infesteds next to a cc and infest it or defending against drops with them or dropping in peonlines but unless the game is already over you're always best off avoiding building them. the nuke is definitely better. and ghosts are awesome in the right scenarios. | ||
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Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
Here's what I propose: MC is a broken spell. Make it any better and it might be too good. Same with broodling. A 1 hit kill anything spell is always a problem in games like this. I'd suggest make it a lot better, BUT, put a duration on it. Make it so that MC'd units revert back to player control after 10-20 seconds or something. Then make it cost like 125 mana and not rape the da's shields. Then, it would have a tangible use, especially vs units like lurkers and ultras that can change a pvz battle even in relatively small numbers. Also, maelstrom is too weak for 100 mana. Make it 75 or increase it's duration. Feedback is fine at 50, but it's impractical for most people to use the spell. They just aren't fast enough. It would be far far better if DA's were flying units, so that they could move quickly and easily enough to actually be able to hunt down enemy spell casters. As it is, you can almost never effectively feedback the other guy's casters before they've already casted their spells, because DA's get stuck behind their own units and etc. So, maybe increase the range of the spell to like, more than yamato range? That might actually make it usable by the general bw playing public. And by the general bw playing public, I mean the good players, like us. Scouts should be considered a compliment to corsairs, not carriers. There's very little that scouts do that carriers can't do a lot better. However, they do have an air to ground attack which sairs do not. Therefore, make scouts, like sairs, a stargate only unit. Screw upgrading them at fleet beacons. Scouts should be upgradeable at the cyber core, or preferably, for that price, come with their upgrades. If you still want to force them to get speed, make it cheap, fast, and available at the core, and make scouts cheaper too. Increase their armour and air to ground. You might actually see scouts get used occasionally, though it wouldn't change too too much because both zerg and terran already have to get anti air vs protoss already for other reasons. Turrets to defend against drops and dts, and in zergs case defense against sairs killing overlords. With sairs still requiring a beacon to get dweb, you wouldn't see toss's overpowering the other races with huge air forces early in the game. But, it might be a legitimate option for toss to hold his cliffs with scouts, for example. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28635 Posts
I'd rather have 1 DA with mael, 1 archon and 1 templar than 2 archons and 2 templars when fighting against mutas. I bet anyone who thinks DA's suck just haven't made any effort at incorporating them in their play. I have. mael is useful and I get it quite often. and I've won multiple games with it, too. | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
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bangchucaibang
United States202 Posts
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Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
However among these units I can agree that there are som potential stalemate breakers, but most games don't reach that stage. Saying that ghost is good is overpowered not really right, since it takes almost superhuman control and speed to make them work, plus the time and cost to get them. Nuke is decent but not more than that because they have to be attached to CCs. | ||
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baal
10535 Posts
On December 12 2004 23:34 Liquid`Drone wrote: me and zia have won several games through her pulling off amazing nukes actually on the other hand, I'm certain I've built more infested terrans than anyone else on this forum. they're horrible and they have hardly ever been cost effective. if they were like templars and had 0 attack however their explosion was a spell, they would be awesome though. I mean, you can very occasionally pull off some cute stuff. e.g. drop 2 infesteds next to a cc and infest it or defending against drops with them or dropping in peonlines but unless the game is already over you're always best off avoiding building them. the nuke is definitely better. and ghosts are awesome in the right scenarios. Infested terrans would be sweet if they were reeeeaaally cheap and their buildtime were very very fast... the game would become so interesting. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28635 Posts
3 ghosts can potentially lockdown 6 carriers but the fact is, even if you have 3 ghosts and you lockdown 1 carrier and lose them all, you still ended up beating him with 475 minerals and 25 gas. (as long as you manage to kill the carrier anyway) and locking 1 carrier with 3 ghosts does not require supergodly control. so basically, they're worth it with just average micro. but they have the potential to be insanely awesome if you have boxer-like control. of course they're only viable in certain situations, (and pretty much only against capital ships), but they're really really good for those situations. | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
The only useless unit is hands down the infested terran. No doubt about it. Seriously the infested terran needs some major balancing so that these units can become part of a viable part of a strategy. List of underpowered units (have uses in the game under certain conditions, but are still underpowered as a whole. Needs a buff in balance changes in order to make them more viable): #1 and #2 are tied: Scouts and Ghosts #3 Dark Archons #4 Queen | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28635 Posts
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Smurg
Australia3818 Posts
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loztdignity
Sweden176 Posts
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Promises
Netherlands1821 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28635 Posts
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On December 12 2004 19:45 Energies wrote: The man in the turret, he's fucking useless he never aims at the right things. Lmao That was the only one post that was worth reading :p Gg man | ||
GTR
51431 Posts
On December 12 2004 13:51 evanthebouncy wrote: Firebats... they are rarely used after MnM proved to be so useful http://ongamenet.dl.sayclub.co.kr/ongamenet/star_pro_pmang_040221c.wmv change your mind now? | ||
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LazySCV
United States2942 Posts
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tree
United States591 Posts
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Caution
2059 Posts
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RedMeat
United Kingdom490 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28635 Posts
but they're really not all that expensive. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
And they seem to ALWAYS have 100 energy :D | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 13 2004 01:51 tfeign wrote: List of units that are useless ( have absolutely no use in the game, needs major balancing): The only useless unit is hands down the infested terran. No doubt about it. Seriously the infested terran needs some major balancing so that these units can become part of a viable part of a strategy. List of underpowered units (have uses in the game under certain conditions, but are still underpowered as a whole. Needs a buff in balance changes in order to make them more viable): #1 and #2 are tied: Scouts and Ghosts #3 Dark Archons #4 Queen ASDUIGAUYUFG !&*@T!@7y68342487234 Ghosts and Scouts counter what? YES THAT'S RIGHT, CAPITAL SHIPS! They were made to counter capital ships not to fight dragoons head-on, ok? It's called a SPECIALIZED UNIT. Dark archons and queens = ALSO SPECIALIZED UNITS, K? | ||
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[G]Max_Power
Slovakia304 Posts
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Famouzze
971 Posts
On December 13 2004 00:52 bangchucaibang wrote: so where the fuck is Beast? i guess he's busy owning people with Mind Control...rofl what a sad kid, i thought only americans talked so much shit and then failed to back it up atleast most americans would make an attempt at showing they're not full of shit by 1:1ing...atleast now we know who really has no vision of the game whatsoever: the luckiest wcg participant in history.anyway, i definitely agree with drone that mael can be very good vs mutas and i would certainly rather have a DA with 100+ mana and a templar and a archon vrs mutas than 2 templars and a archon, the problem is just the money and time that it takes to get a dark archon. you really cannot get them until late game unless you sacrifice getting a lot of other stuff. they take so much time and resources to get that i cannot see them being useful other than in late game when you have at the very least 2 bases which have been mining for a while. they're also very good vrs drops and decent vrs ultra/ling. but everything about them is way too expensive, and mael lasts too short a time T_T. | ||
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suxN
Finland1167 Posts
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TheGoliath
United States682 Posts
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Gnuym
Korea (South)129 Posts
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LastWish
2013 Posts
pheered.user : build some battiers + Carriers and Scouts are going to have hard time in PvP, in PvZ corsair>>scout, PvT 1 yamato kills one scout... [G]Max_Power : kakaru is actually better - it can fly;) | ||
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TheGoliath
United States682 Posts
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28635 Posts
so you need a science facility in the first place. then you need one addon and one spell researched to have ghosts as well. it does not take a long time. in many games going ghosts vs carriers isn't viable because you're short on gas and huge on minerals. in those games, you will often be best off avoiding them. although you're gonna have a really hard time beating carriers anyway then. but if you have a decent amount of gas you should aaalways get ghosts vs carriers. | ||
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dnaxmen
Australia124 Posts
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On December 13 2004 05:12 Famouzze wrote: i guess he's busy owning people with Mind Control...rofl what a sad kid, i thought only americans talked so much shit and then failed to back it up atleast most americans would make an attempt at showing they're not full of shit by 1:1ing...atleast now we know who really has no vision of the game whatsoever: the luckiest wcg participant in history.I don't see your logic : you said in page 2 of this thread : "hahaha...i'd be willing to 1:1 you and show you how much vision i have, and maybe even win without using DAs." Aren't you a little too ... I dunno the word but somewhat weird in your mind ? We don't need guys like you who start flamming. I read that u were the first. Maybe you may be banned cauz guys like you are not welcome in this forum. I know about the beast story but we're in an another thread, so don't bring the same story. Beast didn't even mention about you or whatever, he just said his opinion about the DT. Peace man just calm down. | ||
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Famouzze
971 Posts
im perfectly calm. ive never had a conversation with beast in another thread. and he flamed me first while i simply challenged him to back it up in a game. i dunno where ur getting all these ideas from. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
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Hwoarang
Korea (South)235 Posts
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Gnuym
Korea (South)129 Posts
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ironchef
Canada1350 Posts
I know they have their uses, but relatively speaking theyre usually not that effective.. altho i have seen some nice maelstrom vs zerg.. as a side note.. long time ago(pre replay etc) i use to think vultures suck after seeing some tvp replays that quickly changes ^^.. so heres hoping that someone will come up with some ingenius uses for the aforementioned "useless" units.. the queen movement is already beginning.. not that i ever doubted the queens~! | ||
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ComunistHobo
Canada208 Posts
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
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Frits
11782 Posts
They just cost too much and suck too badly to be good. (Mealstrom 100 mana just doesn't make sense.) | ||
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
I said what I said because you shouldn't be calling him the "WCG lucky wonderboy", it's just rude. He worked hard to get what he did (granted, he did have a little luck; but then again, who hasn't been lucky before?) so you shouldn't just tear him apart. I personally think Mind Control sucks and the only time I remember it being used was in that one replay where the toss teched to mind control rather than observers (which was a bad move overall) and when Naz embarassed that kid at WCG. Regardless of how crappy MC is, it isn't right to take a cheapshot at Beast about his WCG performance. | ||
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xCx
Poland123 Posts
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SCFraser
Canada1534 Posts
since he used to play under liquid`corbalt I wanna see this grudge match.. i know corbalt used to be pretty damn good... Beast you should put him to the test, hes callin u out, u gonna take the challenge?!? | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
On December 13 2004 05:39 LastWish wrote: ahk-gosu : valkyries beating carriers? u must be dreaming... pheered.user : build some battiers + Carriers and Scouts are going to have hard time in PvP, in PvZ corsair>>scout, PvT 1 yamato kills one scout... [G]Max_Power : kakaru is actually better - it can fly;) actually the valk has quite a bit of armor, and with the proper upgrades, can do a lot more damage than a huge group of goliaths can. i bet that 12 valks and 20 wraiths can kill more carriers than 35 goliaths. valks dont suck for the people who stated that. wcg 2004. tvz xellos. the zerg couldnt even touch his valks on gorky island. da is good but its really hard to use. but id rather have a da than a templar vs units like ultralisks. the fact is that da cost 2 dts and ht is just 1 unit .cost a lot of gas. as for scouts. yea the price is imbalanced. id say that if the gas price was reduced and scouts sight range + attack speed was increased it would be better. or even increase its damage for ground. i think the sight upgrade for scout is horrible seeing as how its a scout and it should have a lot of range any ways. | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
there are no builds or combos that we have made up. think of it like this. before the terran blockade, the firebat marine medic combo was great vs protoss. however since the protoss learned that storms + mass ground murders them mid game, the terran adjusted by getting vults and tanks. the zerg muta rush was also created to exploit weak cannons damage type. its all about adjusting. one day someone is going to figure a build for dark archons or ghost. i think nada had a game where he went infantry vs a terran. he had marines medics firebats and ghost. alot of gas went into the ghosts but the tanks were pretty much owned. also the game with giyom vs the zerg ( i forgot the map it was in the pimpest plays thing) he would have lost if it werent for his superb useage of maelstrom and storm together. every unit is weak to something. and every unit it strong vs something. ghost damage isnt too bad either vs small units. especially considering their range. scouts can kill air. infested , although their low health may make them die to marines, can kill bunkers in 1 hit, kill tons of supply depots, murder the mineral line, and you dont really have to be winning in order to get an infested cc. ive gotten one beforeafter killing an island on lost temple. and the game was pretty close. | ||
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Beast_Bg
Bulgaria1623 Posts
Me vs you Bo5 PROTOSS VERSUS PROTOSS .Im banned from useing templars and youre banned from useing dark archons. Only problem is I'm too lazy to arrange a possible time to suit both Bulgaria and USA so I'm leaving it to you. | ||
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Beast_Bg
Bulgaria1623 Posts
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Beast_Bg
Bulgaria1623 Posts
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Famouzze
971 Posts
On December 13 2004 12:52 Beast_Bg wrote: Corbalt. Me vs you Bo5 PROTOSS VERSUS PROTOSS .Im banned from useing templars and youre banned from useing dark archons. Only problem is I'm too lazy to arrange a possible time to suit both Bulgaria and USA so I'm leaving it to you. that's stupid..you're a t player right? if you're using p then i'm using z. i want u to show me ur "vision of the game" is so much more accurate than mine...my best race vs your non best with random spitulations wont prove anything...i wouldn't be using dark archons in any case. i don't want to waste my time beating ur protoss just so u can say "well im still right because he hasnt proved anything my t would still rape him" play me with ur t. when u commented before u seemed very confident in ur assessment that i am a newbie for not agreeing that dark archons are awesome...why wouldn't you be confident that you could beat me with us both using our best races then? i was surprised in a sad way to see someone i thought was a good member of the bw community talking so rudely but now im even more surprised that u wont even try and back up your words...plz dont insult me by insinuating your non best race would beat my best race. play me in a bo5 with your terran vrs my protoss. and i promise not to use dark archons. if u dont want to play me in a real game thats fine, just admit you were speaking out of ur ass and needlessly insulting. but i am disappointed u lack the cojones to put some meaning behind ur words...i c now ur just another trash talking newbie who gets on bw forums to talk shit to ppl who he knows he could never speak to in such a way in after a real game...oh well | ||
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Beast_Bg
Bulgaria1623 Posts
My PvP is pretty good and certainly good enough to beat you.I don't need to prove I'm better than you.You wanted me to back up my words.I'm saying I'm a better protoss player than you are.Play me or apologize for needlessly insulting me.(or go to hell, I'm trough with caring about what idiots think and say) | ||
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Famouzze
971 Posts
i dunno how you can say "you have no vision of the game whatsoever" wasnt intended to be insulting, but oh well. if u are going to be a pussy and backpedal over your words rather than back them up there's nothing i can do about that | ||
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Beast_Bg
Bulgaria1623 Posts
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SCFraser
Canada1534 Posts
so he thinks hes good enough with toss? big deal, let him pick whatever race he wants. is your pvp weak or something? | ||
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GogUMagog
United States90 Posts
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Famouzze
971 Posts
On December 13 2004 14:02 SCFraser wrote: ... corbalt if you're so confident why dont u just own his P? so he thinks hes good enough with toss? big deal, let him pick whatever race he wants. is your pvp weak or something? think about it. if i win i've proven nothing and for all anyone knows beast is still better at bw than me. if i lose i've embarrassed myself. why do u think he made the offer? | ||
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miniStar
Finland143 Posts
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SCFraser
Canada1534 Posts
On December 13 2004 14:06 Famouzze wrote: think about it. if i win i've proven nothing and for all anyone knows beast is still better at bw than me. if i lose i've embarrassed myself. why do u think he made the offer? Thats one way to look at it.. but heres another way: If u win, then beast looks like an idiot for not backin up his mouth, and being arrogant enough to play with his 2nd best race. If u lose, not too much shame... Beast is a good player. 1 best of 5 wouldnt prove anything anyway, if someone wins 3-2 its hard to say whos better. Anyway match>>no match. if u wanna pick z then do it, since when does your opponent have any say on your race in bw? | ||
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RedMeat
United Kingdom490 Posts
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baal
10535 Posts
On December 13 2004 11:58 ahk-gosu wrote: actually the valk has quite a bit of armor, and with the proper upgrades, can do a lot more damage than a huge group of goliaths can. i bet that 12 valks and 20 wraiths can kill more carriers than 35 goliaths. 20wraiths + 12+ valks cost a bazillion times more than 35 goliahts, and goliaths are way safer, with wraiths you are risking a lot. | ||
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baal
10535 Posts
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tree
United States591 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 13 2004 13:40 Beast_Bg wrote: My post was NOT directed to you and was not intended to insult you in any way,but I still think whoever underestimates DAs is just wrong.Carriers in PvP would be unstoppable if not for the Dark Archons.Feedback owns templars. My PvP is pretty good and certainly good enough to beat you.I don't need to prove I'm better than you.You wanted me to back up my words.I'm saying I'm a better protoss player than you are.Play me or apologize for needlessly insulting me.(or go to hell, I'm trough with caring about what idiots think and say) Scouts do beat carriers but yes, DAs are sooooooo worth it vs carriers -,.- | ||
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Famouzze
971 Posts
On December 13 2004 15:03 tree wrote: I would love to play beast =\ you should sieze the oppurtunity to play great players as much as you get and not be so arrogant. There are many players who would die to be in those circumstances. i play on gamei with players much better than beast all of the time. i was just making that challenge because he said i know nothing about bw. if he wants to be gay and say he'll only play me without his main race, that is an insult and i'd have to be an idiot to accept that. it's win-win for him and lose-lose for me. if u wanted to see the game get mad at him for not willing to play me in a real game, not me for not wanting to waste my time. =o --; | ||
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LegendaryDreams
Canada1350 Posts
On December 13 2004 12:03 ahk-gosu wrote: the thing is that we have no adapted to units such as dark archons and ghosts. there are no builds or combos that we have made up. think of it like this. before the terran blockade, the firebat marine medic combo was great vs protoss. however since the protoss learned that storms + mass ground murders them mid game, the terran adjusted by getting vults and tanks. the zerg muta rush was also created to exploit weak cannons damage type. its all about adjusting. one day someone is going to figure a build for dark archons or ghost. i think nada had a game where he went infantry vs a terran. he had marines medics firebats and ghost. alot of gas went into the ghosts but the tanks were pretty much owned. also the game with giyom vs the zerg ( i forgot the map it was in the pimpest plays thing) he would have lost if it werent for his superb useage of maelstrom and storm together. every unit is weak to something. and every unit it strong vs something. ghost damage isnt too bad either vs small units. especially considering their range. scouts can kill air. infested , although their low health may make them die to marines, can kill bunkers in 1 hit, kill tons of supply depots, murder the mineral line, and you dont really have to be winning in order to get an infested cc. ive gotten one beforeafter killing an island on lost temple. and the game was pretty close. Well said. I've seen games where T goes PURE infantry vs Z and they win, cause ghosts (in mass) do quite decent damage to muta-lings (since they are all small units). Combine that with the firepower of stimmed marines and a few firebats, you're unstoppable (vs Z). | ||
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SCFraser
Canada1534 Posts
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SCFraser
Canada1534 Posts
On December 13 2004 15:32 Famouzze wrote: i play on gamei with players much better than beast all of the time. i was just making that challenge because he said i know nothing about bw. if he wants to be gay and say he'll only play me without his main race, that is an insult and i'd have to be an idiot to accept that. it's win-win for him and lose-lose for me. if u wanted to see the game get mad at him for not willing to play me in a real game, not me for not wanting to waste my time. =o --; haha corbalt u get no respect anymore huh. like a year ago u were alot better known. | ||
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Famouzze
971 Posts
On December 13 2004 16:00 SCFraser wrote: haha corbalt u get no respect anymore huh. like a year ago u were alot better known. i couldnt care less | ||
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Beast_Bg
Bulgaria1623 Posts
On December 13 2004 15:24 FrozenArbiter wrote: Scouts do beat carriers but yes, DAs are sooooooo worth it vs carriers -,.- Yeah, but too many things rape scouts.Several sairs are more than enough. | ||
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LastWish
2013 Posts
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aSp]EvaNet[
Canada8 Posts
On December 13 2004 16:13 Beast_Bg wrote: Yeah, but too many things rape scouts.Several sairs are more than enough. The worst unit will have to be the scouts.... relative to cost and usefulness. Cost a great deal of money. Does little damage to ground. slow shoot time and easily owned. horrible build time. unless you playing a money map a scout should never appear !! | ||
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KellO
Mexico189 Posts
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wakiki
United States65 Posts
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
On December 13 2004 17:17 LastWish wrote: u kill scouts with corsair as easy as mutas(since mutas suffer only 1/2 sair dmg) i dont think so. i think they take 100% damage. isnt corsair damage normal type? plus splash?? | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28635 Posts
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On December 13 2004 15:32 Famouzze wrote: i play on gamei with players much better than beast all of the time. i was just making that challenge because he said i know nothing about bw. if he wants to be gay and say he'll only play me without his main race, that is an insult and i'd have to be an idiot to accept that. it's win-win for him and lose-lose for me. if u wanted to see the game get mad at him for not willing to play me in a real game, not me for not wanting to waste my time. =o --; Dude... Did you read my post ? I read all ur posts and as far as i know i didn't mean to offend you but you, you seems to not really understand that beast wasn't mentionning you in particularity. Do you understand my point ? I said that beast was mentioning to WHOEVER, and since we're in a forum we're not allowed to "flame" guys. If you want to prove anything to him then just pm him. That's why i thought that u should be banned. Luhh you said that : "Yep, beast was full of shit. I would have to agree with famouzze, and Raiz, if you don't think what he said was offensive, then I don't know what is..." Plz re read my post ? ^_^ I already said that beast wasn't mentionning to a specific person. Therefore this post should not be offensive. And we're in a forum we must talk about it with a little "respect" to everybody | ||
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TheGoliath
United States682 Posts
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
From what I can conclude here of people's opinions on units it's that there are in fact several units that are fairly crappy and a select few (infested terran, scout) that are borderline useless... To famouzze and beast. That match wouldn't really prove much anyways since DA is not really a matchwinning unit unless playing an island map PvP or a PvZ game, and in PvZ it's such a risky choice that it's hardly a viable option and tech route. Honestly you should have your head examined if you go for DA in a PvT unless it's on BGH$$$$$ maps and the likes. So the one to win the game would be the one handling the basic gameplay best as per usual... | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28635 Posts
wasn't fighting metal tho. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 13 2004 18:31 aSp]EvaNet[ wrote: The worst unit will have to be the scouts.... relative to cost and usefulness. Cost a great deal of money. Does little damage to ground. slow shoot time and easily owned. horrible build time. unless you playing a money map a scout should never appear !! If you are fighting BCs scouts SHOULD appear -_- If you are fighting carriers they would do well too. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 13 2004 17:17 LastWish wrote: u kill scouts with corsair as easy as mutas(since mutas suffer only 1/2 sair dmg) Except scouts have 3x the hp/shield and and do 3x the damage? | ||
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Beast_Bg
Bulgaria1623 Posts
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vaj
Germany327 Posts
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Beast_Bg
Bulgaria1623 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28635 Posts
they win if you spread them well tho | ||
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araav
Armenia1590 Posts
you should be happy beast offered you pvp bo5. i think it's still useless coz it will be 5:0. yes, beast is not korean super-progamer, but he's in top 10 non-koreans, ok? even if testie beat him once, this doesn't mean he can do it again and vice-verce. think about it. just think, don't talk. dont even open you mouth. it's the shittest thing to sit at home and write to public that you can win WCG 3rd place winner. who are you after this? think about this too. and your arguments are very-very weak, if it's hard to use DA correctly - this does NOT mean they are the worst units, this means only the player is weak, just give DA to rA and see what happens. and imagine boxer with 10 DA waiting for 12 carriers with MC ready. huh??? at all the idea of finding the worst unit in BW is stupid if you are not specialist. be sure blizzard has many specialists who work on these issues. scouts are very good when you have a lot of them with supporting >=10 ShB's. this is because of their speed. of course you should only switch (step-by-step) to scouts when the game is late. the ideal scenario when palyers divided the map and full of supply and no major battle for a long time (just like zelotito's recent game on bnet tournament vs zerg). | ||
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Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
Saying that a skilled player would rock with 10 DA:s is silly since he would have died a long time ago unless he was already in the lead and just tried to be cute. The only time I've seen it work was on a very unique map, paradoxx which have lots of resources at the start location. On other maps it wouldn't be a very wise choice. | ||
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Aerox
Malaysia1213 Posts
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DooMeR
United States1519 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28635 Posts
considering 12 carriers costs like twice as much minerals and more gas as well you know | ||
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LastWish
2013 Posts
On December 14 2004 06:41 FrozenArbiter wrote: Except scouts have 3x the hp/shield and and do 3x the damage? So Sad your math is so Bad - scout shield+Hp=100+150=250, mutalisk Hp=120 multiplied 2(since take 1/2 dmg) = 240. | ||
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DaRkTxUs
Chile4 Posts
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L o V e D o M
United States34 Posts
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
On December 13 2004 03:58 FrozenArbiter wrote: ASDUIGAUYUFG !&*@T!@7y68342487234 Ghosts and Scouts counter what? YES THAT'S RIGHT, CAPITAL SHIPS! They were made to counter capital ships not to fight dragoons head-on, ok? It's called a SPECIALIZED UNIT. Dark archons and queens = ALSO SPECIALIZED UNITS, K? GFUYAGIUDSA 43278424386Y7@!t@*&! READ NEXT TIME THX have uses in the game under certain conditions, but are still underpowered as a whole. Needs a buff in balance changes in order to make them more viable K? | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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gulii
Sweden2791 Posts
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yeehaw
San Marino888 Posts
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Beast_Bg
Bulgaria1623 Posts
On December 14 2004 19:27 tfeign wrote: Well,if they were any stronger than they are now, nobody would make carriers,bcs,ultras or any spellcasters versus protoss.I like them as they are right now.I think they will be used much more in the future in PvZ and PvP.There aren't many uses against terran - feedback or mind control a science vessel on an air map,mind control a dropship(omg, i gotta try this vs some freaking terran building 4-5 ships and flying around) and mind control an scv if youre maxed(this is a sound strategy IMO.The terran can't really prevent you from doing it in most cases)GFUYAGIUDSA 43278424386Y7@!t@*&! READ NEXT TIME THX have uses in the game under certain conditions, but are still underpowered as a whole. Needs a buff in balance changes in order to make them more viable K? | ||
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LastWish
2013 Posts
Scout ground attack is hilarious, and dies pretty fast to any ranged unit/building. Queen is a good unit though - cost 100/100 only is fast flying and has powerful spells broodlings/ensnare(also research is cheap) - they aren't used unly because Zerg players aren't used for waiting, since defilers don't wait for mana - instead they consume lings for it. Ghosts - hard to micro, useless vs Zerg, probably because Protoss would have upgrades and in TvP Terran does not upgrade infantry + gas needed on metal = not used. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17238 Posts
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Beast_Bg
Bulgaria1623 Posts
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Locked
United States4182 Posts
On December 15 2004 02:52 LastWish wrote: Well i don't think DA would be used more in the future unless mealstrom 75. i think its disgusting that you get 6 maels for twice as many psi storms in terms of gas cost (3 DAs vs 4 templar = 600 gas each), and when you factor in minerals and morphing time its even worse =\. | ||
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Freezer_au
Australia1461 Posts
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LastWish
2013 Posts
On December 15 2004 03:32 Locked wrote: i think its disgusting that you get 6 maels for twice as many psi storms in terms of gas cost (3 DAs vs 4 templar = 600 gas each), and when you factor in minerals and morphing time its even worse =\. Very true - i've counted the exact times : DA - 50+50+20(2 DT + morphing time)=120 other casters : Arbiter - 160 HT - 50 Defiler - 50 Science Vessel - 80 | ||
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Beast_Bg
Bulgaria1623 Posts
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LastWish
2013 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28635 Posts
what ive done a couple of times is build 2 dts that I use for expansionscouting, then if I end up not finding any, I bring them back home and morph DA works pretty well | ||
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HnR)Pride
Canada297 Posts
I do, however, think that ghosts are underused in TvZ. An infantry unit with the same range as lurkers? I mean how useful is that! They could make a TvZ army very mobile if used properly I imagine. | ||
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LastWish
2013 Posts
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
Ghost range is 7 without ocular implants or with? | ||
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LastWish
2013 Posts
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Famouzze
971 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Psi storm finnished. Da mana 100~ish. HT mana goes 75. Mael. Storm. Sair, BOOM :D! I freaked out and made 2 sairs but I lost one before I could do anything anyways, could have been even more cost effective :O Let's just say he didn't mutalisk rush the next game ^_^ However, I did lose because of my HT acting retarded among other things, was a fairly long and close game though. I had no idea the timing of mael rush was so PERFECT vs 3 hatch muta :O! | ||
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Monsen
Germany2548 Posts
On December 15 2004 10:52 Famouzze wrote: strange that ppl are saying ghost...ghosts are incredibly effective in every pvt where the toss goes carriers that i've ever seen them used. as eri already pointed out, in a long game you have a science facility and an acad of course already, so the added on covert ops with lockdown is incredibly inexpensive, likewise for ghosts themselves, 25/75, thats nothing. then u need to wait just a little while to have one lockdown. guys, one lockdown = ONE DEAD CARRIER. that's it, the toss can't do anything if he's doing hit and runs as usual and then while he's near your units you lock one of the carriers. so it's 25/75 that kills an entire carrier, then it probably didn't even die and you can use it again. that is so incredibly useful, i have no idea why anyone other than zerg users could be saying ghosts are bad. fuck nuke, nuke is terrible, but lockdown OWNS carriers in the most cost effective way imaginably. Corbalt, I've had a lot of respect for you from the time on when Br.com was still the only way (known to me at least) to read/learn stuff about broodwar games. I would want you to take a step back and really look at what you've written in this thread. 1. DA= useless That is simply dumb. You MIGHT have been refering to TvP, at least I assume that from the way you keep bothering Beast, but you KNOW that feedback is simply awesome in PvP and Mindcontrol has some uses as well. 2. The beast issue What actually is happening is Beast wanting to prove that DA=good, thus demanding a matchup where this is easy to be done (PvP). You keep insisting on TvP and picking on some minor flames he added in his post. That is not to the point of this thread/backing up your rants about the DA. And since he claimed that his PvP is better than yours you can still "prove" sth. by beating him. 3. Ghosts... You point out that Ghosts are really good when fighting Carriers... This seems kind of hypocritical after you denied the uses of the DA in certain matchups/situations. Basically if Beast now came up and challenged you to a TvZ where you use Ghosts would be the same thing that you did before. I'm not taking any sides here. I just think that you're wrong and smart enough to see it, which is why I'm actually bothering to write such a long reply. To what point I'm not really sure though... gl hf | ||
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Famouzze
971 Posts
so who cares, beast is only willing to play me with his worst race because he knows he'd look like a fool if we played a real game and i won. he's a pussy who won't back up his words and everyone knows it...now it's over so let it die. | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
On December 15 2004 10:41 LastWish wrote: ocular does not upgrade attack range only sight range Yeah, I was just thinking maybe they were like tank and could shoot just a bit outside their vis. Anyway, thanks for info. | ||
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LetMeBeWithYou
Canada4254 Posts
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Tossim1
714 Posts
On December 12 2004 17:19 LetMeBeWithYou wrote: hahaha owned and whos that famouzzzz guy? corbalt i think | ||
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Tossim1
714 Posts
On December 13 2004 05:12 Famouzze wrote: i guess he's busy owning people with Mind Control...rofl what a sad kid, i thought only americans talked so much shit and then failed to back it up atleast most americans would make an attempt at showing they're not full of shit by 1:1ing...atleast now we know who really has no vision of the game whatsoever: the luckiest wcg participant in history.um wtf cares if he got lucky. everyone does, just because he didn't get the hardest brackets doesn't mean shit. he got paid $1000+, did u? | ||
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FroST(TE)
United States909 Posts
he said what he thought the worst unit is in the game - and it very well may be. as good as it can be in situations, it still pales in comparison to the overall usage of most units. im sure that i probably use DA's more than almost anybody on this whole board and i can still say that the amount of times that dropping 2 Dt's for a DA is a strong plus is hard to find. and to people calling corbalt a puss, honestly what beast said is a slap in the face. even if corbalt won 4-(pvp)1 it would still be a loss for him. ps - i saw corbalt use a DA pvt on gorky at WCG prelims kaka~ | ||
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Tossim1
714 Posts
lets just say every unit has its purpose and bedone with this thread, because we're going no where | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28635 Posts
DA's usefulness in pvp. | ||
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
Decrease build time slightly, a must. Increase armor to 1, a must (not 2 like it once had, too strong vs marines 1 fac build perhaps. They shouldn't be so badly raped by spash air units, since it was designed from start as an interceptor air superiority unit, right?). Maybe reduce it's cost, but don't affect ground damage too much since they might actually become extremely bothersome... It used to have what? 12 in ground damage with lower cooldown? Nowadays it's at 60% damage output versus ground to what it used to have, and it shouldn't be much higher than that. | ||
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
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[ErOs]~InCoGniTo
Italy513 Posts
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paniK.
Canada233 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
On December 16 2004 18:37 paniK. wrote: there is no 'worst unit' or 'best unit' whoever doesnt realize that is nuB If you don't realize there must be a worst unit in any games with different units (by at least some reasonable standards) you are stupid :p. | ||
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
On December 17 2004 01:15 gravity wrote: If you don't realize there must be a worst unit in any games with different units (by at least some reasonable standards) you are stupid :p. So very true! I thought that went without saying, but then again, Bush is the president of the united states... | ||
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baal
10535 Posts
On December 15 2004 10:59 FrozenArbiter wrote: :O Today I went for a 2 gate-> (scouting ramp hatch I made no zealots but instead gassed at once) gas -> Sair -> (scouting 3 hatch muta + my opponent likes 3 hatch muta so I was fairly certain even before) templar -> 2 DT and male -> HT+Storm -> Mutalisks arrive in my base (9 vs 6), 3 cannons complete. Psi storm finnished. Da mana 100~ish. HT mana goes 75. Mael. Storm. Sair, BOOM :D! I freaked out and made 2 sairs but I lost one before I could do anything anyways, could have been even more cost effective :O Let's just say he didn't mutalisk rush the next game ^_^ However, I did lose because of my HT acting retarded among other things, was a fairly long and close game though. I had no idea the timing of mael rush was so PERFECT vs 3 hatch muta :O! rep rep rep... i think early DA is very good against tech zerg, i havent tried it, but even in lurk containment, assuming you have 2 bases, when the p tries to exist is a high ass battle that decides the game a lot of times, if you have 2 DAs in that time (easy if you tech fast), we are talking about 4 or atleast 3 malestorms... enough to hold the lurkers and trample over his containment. | ||
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tree
United States591 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 17 2004 01:24 Luhh wrote: So very true! I thought that went without saying, but then again, Bush is the president of the united states... How do you decide 'best'? Scouts are obviously not the best at fighting goliaths but they are by far the best when it comes to cost effectively destroying battle cruisers (the best SINGLE unit, not a combination k?). DAs might not be as good vs hydras or lurkers as high templars but they sure as hell beat the crap out of them in the 'rape spellcaster' department --; Valkyries might not be great vs battle cruisers but they destroy wraiths, sairs, mutalisks etc :O Ghosts die to zealot/dragoon, but they rape carriers/bcs. Infested terrans.. They aren't a bad unit themselves just a weeeeeeee bit hard to get They are the only zerg area of effect explosion unit thing ^_^ | ||
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
Infested Terran maybe bad but not becuase they are a bad unit, but mainly becuase they are just too hard to get - I think it's more of a cool factor than something that's "incorporated" into a build order to get 9 pool 58 take cc 59 infested terran 60 infested terran | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28635 Posts
they die too fast (due to being the target of every unit), and if you are in a position where you can use them you can always use something else instead. you can occasionally pull off the same with them as you could pull with a lurker (without the lurker dying), but most of the time they just die. | ||
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tree
United States591 Posts
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tree
United States591 Posts
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
A unit is essential if you can't win the game without it or promptly lose it if you don't build it. A unit is good if it is cost effecient and gives you an edge in the game or multiplies the strength of other units. A unit is bad is it's not cost effecient, doesn't turn the tide or have a signifigant impact on the game, or takes too long or cost too much to get, or is simply too hard to make it efficient. So plz let this thread die already... | ||
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tree
United States591 Posts
On December 17 2004 05:50 Luhh wrote: Plz let this thread die, since most won't agree on the basics: ie what makes a unit bad. Some say that as long as there is one single function during a tiny window in a game that unit can be useful it's still a good unit... A unit is bad is it's not cost effecient, doesn't turn the tide or have a signifigant impact on the game, or takes too long or cost too much to get, or is simply too hard to make it efficient. So plz let this thread die already... I.E. Scout | ||
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Resonate
United Kingdom8402 Posts
On December 15 2004 10:59 FrozenArbiter wrote: :O Today I went for a 2 gate-> (scouting ramp hatch I made no zealots but instead gassed at once) gas -> Sair -> (scouting 3 hatch muta + my opponent likes 3 hatch muta so I was fairly certain even before) templar -> 2 DT and male -> HT+Storm -> Mutalisks arrive in my base (9 vs 6), 3 cannons complete. Psi storm finnished. Da mana 100~ish. HT mana goes 75. Mael. Storm. Sair, BOOM :D! I freaked out and made 2 sairs but I lost one before I could do anything anyways, could have been even more cost effective :O Let's just say he didn't mutalisk rush the next game ^_^ However, I did lose because of my HT acting retarded among other things, was a fairly long and close game though. I had no idea the timing of mael rush was so PERFECT vs 3 hatch muta :O so you're trying to say that by the time he had 6 mutas from a 3-hatch opening, that after 2-gating (initialy) u had sairs AND storm AND maelstrom all with enough energy when they 2st arrived? stop playing newbs? not sure but this sounds all wrong... | ||
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Random()
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
You can't have more than 10 of them; or rather not more than 10 of them can fire simultaneously. There must be some limit on number of their rockets not to kill performance on slower machines, but still it's unfair. I mean large number of valkyries theoritically should kill carriers, but with this idiotic limit 10 or 20 don't make any difference. | ||
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
On December 17 2004 06:29 Random() wrote: Valkyries are not bad but buggy. You can't have more than 10 of them; or rather not more than 10 of them can fire simultaneously. There must be some limit on number of their rockets not to kill performance on slower machines, but still it's unfair. I mean large number of valkyries theoritically should kill carriers, but with this idiotic limit 10 or 20 don't make any difference. Actually I didn't know that. Is it a balance issue or like you say a performance issue? *Shudder* 20 Valks would be able to annihilate any airforce with 2 vollies... Imagine if they'd kept the boost and bomb as they initially had designed the Valk? Welcome Valkcraft, in an even more abusive way that this game was known as scoutcraft. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 17 2004 06:20 Resonate wrote: so you're trying to say that by the time he had 6 mutas from a 3-hatch opening, that after 2-gating (initialy) u had sairs AND storm AND maelstrom all with enough energy when they 2st arrived? stop playing newbs? not sure but this sounds all wrong... Oh yes he's a real newbie since he went 1-1 with ret? =/ No, if zerg 3 hatches you get it on time --;; And btw, he got 9 mutalisks I believe. Not that it matters, my cannons were on time so he couldn't have done any damage before 9 anyways --;; Btw, I don't think you read what I said. I 2 gated, but as I had scouted his ramp hatch I didn't even make zealots but went gas immediately, and since he wasn't ling heavy I barely had to invest in zealots. | ||
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coko
United Kingdom570 Posts
Sprites are the doodads/units and such. | ||
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
Well, then again Carriers are strong enough and usually whittle down defence before all interceptors are out... | ||
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Random()
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On December 17 2004 07:04 coko wrote: The limit is caused by the Sprite limit placed on Starcraft, which is high, around 2048, but can be maxed, especially by units like Valkyries, and therefore only so many can fire, as only so many sprites can be drawn. Sprites are the doodads/units and such. No, valkyries have their "personal" limit. Goliaths too produce a lot of sprites with their missile trails, but never quit firing. | ||
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LastWish
2013 Posts
Scouts must have 2 armor (like devourers/guardians) because otherwise they rapidly die to corsair/valkyries. Btw valkyries destroy carriers on 175+ rockets. DA is useful with Feedback and MC, but Maelstrom is quite useless on other than Zerg flying units - and since Protoss aircraft is already stronger than Zergs u don't need it... ->FA give replay to flame | ||
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Random()
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On December 17 2004 07:58 LastWish wrote: Protoss aircraft is already stronger than Zergs Really, I wouldn't say so... Without templar support protoss air is inferior to correct dev/muta combo... | ||
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Nathaniel
United States18 Posts
Sure as one might say, there are "weakest" units such as the broodling etc... But even those can serve as an effective purpose. Now if it was a "The most fucking annoying unit in the game topic" then I would have to pick a Siege Tank. | ||
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
Nathaniel, great job on changing the subject! Nathaniel, great job on bumping this thread which has served it's purpose by now! Luhh, good job on bumping this thread, time for an admin to lock it mayjjbee... | ||
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
On December 17 2004 02:03 FrozenArbiter wrote: How do you decide 'best'? Scouts are obviously not the best at fighting goliaths but they are by far the best when it comes to cost effectively destroying battle cruisers (the best SINGLE unit, not a combination k?). DAs might not be as good vs hydras or lurkers as high templars but they sure as hell beat the crap out of them in the 'rape spellcaster' department --; Valkyries might not be great vs battle cruisers but they destroy wraiths, sairs, mutalisks etc :O Ghosts die to zealot/dragoon, but they rape carriers/bcs. Infested terrans.. They aren't a bad unit themselves just a weeeeeeee bit hard to get They are the only zerg area of effect explosion unit thing ^_^Just because a unit has some use doesn't mean it can't be the worst unit in the game. A unit doesn't have to completely suck to be the worst, it just has to be the least good :p. | ||
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Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
most useless unit? devourer | ||
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Hihi[SugO]
Germany3 Posts
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