On January 20 2011 03:40 Trowabarton756 wrote: =_= did i just read that right? Dude tried to use mass goliaths to kill off mutas??? i mean wouldn't mm or valks or mm+valks or...irridate...or like a thousand other ideas be far more useful? Iunno I feel as if this "top 16 europe" guy isn't all he's cracked up to be.
irridate? lol
....whats wrong with irridate for mutas??? I see you don't play terran...
It insta splits the muta. Irradiate was good because it would do alot of damage to muta as you worked to remove the damaged one. This AI just takes out the damage one immediately and isn't even that clumped usually in the first place. Spending money on vessels to kill one muta every 75 energy just wouldn't be worth it I don't think.
For the bajillionth time "What about its response to Valkonic"? Valkyries and MM and vessels. Stop trying to act like the killing components aren't there and its just irradiate vs mutas.
Exactly how do you want to counter mass mutalisks with irridate if the opponent never stacks them?
Did you even watch the videos? Its clumping and spreading accordingly. Thusly, in a clump irradiate would be effective if only a contribution of 1 to the MM/Valkyries
Sure you can use irradiate to kill one muta at time. However I think the money going to vessels would be far better spent on more marines/medics/valks.
On January 20 2011 03:58 L_Master wrote: This isn't how you argue, no need to personally attack the guy. This has the potential to be a pretty interesting discussion but people almost invariably respond to flames like this de-railing the whole topic.
Also, what Chef said, I kinda want to see a full game, as well as the entire game vs Oriol.
This is how I argue on an online forum. I don't have to be nice because I have no tolerance for idiocy. If you can't understand basic concepts, you do not have a place to argue more in-depth or advanced ones. Simple as that. If I see something bad or wrong, I'm going to call it out for what it is. If being told the truth is "flaming", then the world doesn't flame enough. Also yeah wtf @ there being no video of the game... also have we figured out who this kid is yet?
Irradiate is pretty useless in this situation, valks would work as long as you kept them alive. MnM&valks should theoretically work as long as you target fire scourge. Of course if the AI is smart enough to tech switch then you're pretty much doomed
On January 20 2011 03:40 Trowabarton756 wrote: =_= did i just read that right? Dude tried to use mass goliaths to kill off mutas??? i mean wouldn't mm or valks or mm+valks or...irridate...or like a thousand other ideas be far more useful? Iunno I feel as if this "top 16 europe" guy isn't all he's cracked up to be.
Goliath negate Muta micro with their range. Search for a video that showcased the power of AI muta micro.
It could micro 36 mutalisks indidually to kill off unbelievable amount of archon, turning aside at the correct moment. Basicly, AI mutas are invinsible if you cannot outrange them.
Also, Valks die to scourge pretty easily. And the AI can split the mutas anc control them seperately perfectly.
On January 20 2011 04:01 Diminotoor wrote: Did you even watch the videos? Its clumping and spreading accordingly. Thusly, in a clump irradiate would be effective if only a contribution of 1 to the MM/Valkyries
The irradiated muta would be separated immediately and sent to his doom.
You act as if the initial splash damage and forcing a muta away is a bad thing? Valks die to scourge if you suck at positioning them and we'd have to see its response to that because its response to 3-gate zealot was make tons of zerglins and 4 sunkens except it put a sunken in its main....Don't get me wrong, its impressive, they essentially made a D-/D zerg out of a program. Thats cool, but to boast it beat a "progamer" when the kid was obviously not a progamer is flat out lying.
On January 20 2011 03:58 L_Master wrote: This isn't how you argue, no need to personally attack the guy. This has the potential to be a pretty interesting discussion but people almost invariably respond to flames like this de-railing the whole topic.
Also, what Chef said, I kinda want to see a full game, as well as the entire game vs Oriol.
This is how I argue on an online forum. I don't have to be nice because I have no tolerance for idiocy. If you can't understand basic concepts, you do not have a place to argue more in-depth or advanced ones. Simple as that. If I see something bad or wrong, I'm going to call it out for what it is. If being told the truth is "flaming", then the world doesn't flame enough. Also yeah wtf @ there being no video of the game... also have we figured out who this kid is yet?
You're just being overly aggressive to compensate for not reading the actual article, there's actually no reason to argue about it since your beef with the whole thing is that the thread title is misleading. The article wasn't bragging about how an AI can beat a person (it can't), but how complicated it is to teach a computer to problem-solve.
On January 20 2011 04:14 seRapH wrote: Irradiate is pretty useless in this situation, valks would work as long as you kept them alive. MnM&valks should theoretically work as long as you target fire scourge. Of course if the AI is smart enough to tech switch then you're pretty much doomed
I was under the impression that we were discussing a hypothetical countering AI for the muta AI.
You're just being overly aggressive to compensate for not reading the actual article
No, a lot of you people were apparently raised to be pussies who can't take feedback from somebody who sees a bigger picture than them. Its amazing how these discussions are almost always people trying to present a countering army composition and acting like "well this will never work because of this that and the other thing". What they completely forget about is the tactics and the utilization of the units that make the strategy effective.
Bottom line? There aren't any top players who would agree with your ways of thinking. Might want to change.
On January 20 2011 03:40 Trowabarton756 wrote: =_= did i just read that right? Dude tried to use mass goliaths to kill off mutas??? i mean wouldn't mm or valks or mm+valks or...irridate...or like a thousand other ideas be far more useful? Iunno I feel as if this "top 16 europe" guy isn't all he's cracked up to be.
Goliath negate Muta micro with their range. Search for a video that showcased the power of AI muta micro.
It could micro 36 mutalisks indidually to kill off unbelievable amount of archon, turning aside at the correct moment. Basicly, AI mutas are invinsible if you cannot outrange them.
Also, Valks die to scourge pretty easily. And the AI can split the mutas anc control them seperately perfectly.
About irradiate, look at above
On January 20 2011 04:01 Diminotoor wrote: Did you even watch the videos? Its clumping and spreading accordingly. Thusly, in a clump irradiate would be effective if only a contribution of 1 to the MM/Valkyries
The irradiated muta would be separated immediately and sent to his doom.
You act as if the initial splash damage and forcing a muta away is a bad thing? Valks die to scourge if you suck at positioning them and we'd have to see its response to that because its response to 3-gate zealot was make tons of zerglins and 4 sunkens except it put a sunken in its main....Don't get me wrong, its impressive, they essentially made a D-/D zerg out of a program. Thats cool, but to boast it beat a "progamer" when the kid was obviously not a progamer is flat out lying.
Yeah, the title is sensationalist; though I'm guessing the guy is better than D-/D
On January 20 2011 03:58 L_Master wrote: This isn't how you argue, no need to personally attack the guy. This has the potential to be a pretty interesting discussion but people almost invariably respond to flames like this de-railing the whole topic.
Also, what Chef said, I kinda want to see a full game, as well as the entire game vs Oriol.
This is how I argue on an online forum. I don't have to be nice because I have no tolerance for idiocy. If you can't understand basic concepts, you do not have a place to argue more in-depth or advanced ones. Simple as that. If I see something bad or wrong, I'm going to call it out for what it is. If being told the truth is "flaming", then the world doesn't flame enough. Also yeah wtf @ there being no video of the game... also have we figured out who this kid is yet?
If that's your attitude about posting then you should seriously consider deleting your account and moving over to Facepunch. I hear they have fun debates over who is going to make the next LMAO pics thread.
OT: Ok, the AI is probably not able to defeat Jaedong or Flash. That's not such a big deal though, what's amazing is it's ability to adapt. I do understand that it counts the number of unit producing structures etc. and that part is not hard to make. However, making the AI play a few games against mass high templars and becoming better at it each time, that's good.
BTW, throwing around how good of a buddy you are with top programers and flaunting your degree will not make your arguments more solid, you just look like an asshole.
On January 20 2011 03:40 Trowabarton756 wrote: =_= did i just read that right? Dude tried to use mass goliaths to kill off mutas??? i mean wouldn't mm or valks or mm+valks or...irridate...or like a thousand other ideas be far more useful? Iunno I feel as if this "top 16 europe" guy isn't all he's cracked up to be.
Goliath negate Muta micro with their range. Search for a video that showcased the power of AI muta micro.
It could micro 36 mutalisks indidually to kill off unbelievable amount of archon, turning aside at the correct moment. Basicly, AI mutas are invinsible if you cannot outrange them.
Also, Valks die to scourge pretty easily. And the AI can split the mutas anc control them seperately perfectly.
About irradiate, look at above
On January 20 2011 04:01 Diminotoor wrote: Did you even watch the videos? Its clumping and spreading accordingly. Thusly, in a clump irradiate would be effective if only a contribution of 1 to the MM/Valkyries
The irradiated muta would be separated immediately and sent to his doom.
You act as if the initial splash damage and forcing a muta away is a bad thing? Valks die to scourge if you suck at positioning them and we'd have to see its response to that because its response to 3-gate zealot was make tons of zerglins and 4 sunkens except it put a sunken in its main....Don't get me wrong, its impressive, they essentially made a D-/D zerg out of a program. Thats cool, but to boast it beat a "progamer" when the kid was obviously not a progamer is flat out lying.
Well, the whole thing about the valks is arguable, because whether or not the valks can be snipes depends on how the game plays out.
And yes, I think it will die to most ground attacks, only only 3 gate speed zeal, but standart 4 gate 2 archon. In the game where they demonstrated the overlord scounting, I noticed there was no sim city, just 2 sunkens placed at seemingly random locations at the choke
Edit- Theres a rep of him playing against a terran AI, he was protoss. He goes 2-gate goon into 3-gate robo dt for drops, constantly has +1,000 minerals, constantly ques up 3+ units at his gateways(one time there was even 4 dragoons qued up in 1 and the other 2 not making anything. he didn't take his first expand till >10 minute mark. It honestly was like watching a game from 2001. His aka is =Dogo=
On January 20 2011 04:19 Stenstyren wrote:Ok, the AI is probably not able to defeat Jaedong or Flash. That's not such a big deal though, what's amazing is it's ability to adapt. I do understand that it counts the number of unit producing structures etc. and that part is not hard to make. However, making the AI play a few games against mass high templars and becoming better at it each time, that's good.
BTW, throwing around how good of a buddy you are with top programers and flaunting your degree will not make your arguments more solid, you just look like an asshole.
My point is the AI is not able to defeat ANYBODY OF ANY SIGNIFICANT VALUE. I bet any B/B+/A- on Brainclan would present more of a challenge than this guy did. Its an improvement on its ability to adapt but its simply a matter of storing responses. Now how you PROGRAM those responses is the complex part, but nonetheless, my original point still stands since literally nobody has offered any evidence to the contrary. Program enough responses into it, you have basically a human-emulation AI that simply has vastly superior multi-tasking/micro abilities. The thing that differentiates human players from AI is that our ability to "store responses" is infinitely more complex than computer code will allow currently.
Throwing around that I know many progamers, top progamers at that, and that I have studied the field for which this thread is about extensively does in fact show that I am well-aware of what I'm talking about. Sorry you don't have a tough coating to handle how I word things. However bringing your personal deficiencies to the table just makes you look more pathetic instead of the "heroic voice against the over-aggressive oppressor" thing you were trying to go for.
**Edit** Finished watching, the T went for a 2 fact mech build looks like. His ebay was late and his turrets were... well pretty much nonexistent. Any opinions on his play? I wanna see this AI vs Bio just once.
On January 20 2011 04:46 freelander wrote: I'm more and more sure that you won't last long here buddy. You are not even worth arguing, and I can tell you you are not alone with a CS degree here.
Kid, I've been dealing with dangers my entire life the likes of which you can't even fathom. You claim I'm "not even worth arguing" which doesn't make any sense, yet you can't stop responding to me. Neither you, nor anyone else here who lacks a spine or intelligence has a chance of even getting a real rise out of me much less "chasing me away". Get over yourself.
I'm more and more sure that you won't last long here buddy. You are not even worth arguing, and I can tell you you are not alone with a CS degree here.
Would be possible to get any of the matches commentated? Here are some of the Overmind replays from the competition: best_replays.zip
1. Chronos_v_Overmid This was the finals match in the bottom bracket. I was expecting Chronos to be able to stop the muta harass with wraiths, but it didn't plan out quite as expected.
2. Krasi0_v_Overmind This is the first game from the final match. It was a lot closer than it may have looked from the clips I have uploaded so far:
3. Oriol_v_Krasi0 This was one of the preliminary matches between DoGo and the Krasi0 bot, and was much more interesting than the match I tried to commentate on.
There may be several other great replays from the competition, but there's a lot to go through so I hope this helps streamline the process.
On January 20 2011 04:43 Diminotoor wrote: Kid, I've been dealing with dangers my entire life the likes of which you can't even fathom. You claim I'm "not even worth arguing" which doesn't make any sense, yet you can't stop responding to me. Neither you, nor anyone else here who lacks a spine or speck of intelligence has a chance of even getting a real rise out of me much less "chasing me away". Get over yourself.
Seriously? Now you've dealt with dangers we cannot fathom as well? Why is that even remotely connected to what we are discussing here.
I still claim that this is an achievement. It's not easy to design AI's that are half decent and non-abuseable but these guys have done a pretty good job. Coding the AI to react to stuff is not as easy as you make it sound, you do not just plug it into a database somewhere and that's it.
On January 20 2011 04:43 Diminotoor wrote: Kid, I've been dealing with dangers my entire life the likes of which you can't even fathom. You claim I'm "not even worth arguing" which doesn't make any sense, yet you can't stop responding to me. Neither you, nor anyone else here who lacks a spine or speck of intelligence has a chance of even getting a real rise out of me much less "chasing me away". Get over yourself.
Seriously? Now you've dealt with dangers we cannot fathom as well? Why is that even remotely connected to what we are discussing here.
It means you aren't gonna "scare me away". If you can't make that simple connection, you may want to seek help fast because you're going to have a lot of problems going through life.
On January 20 2011 05:02 Stenstyren wrote: I still claim that this is an achievement. It's not easy to design AI's that are half decent and non-abuseable but these guys have done a pretty good job. Coding the AI to react to stuff is not as easy as you make it sound, you do not just plug it into a database somewhere and that's it.
Of course this is an achievement. Literally NOWHERE have I said it wasn't. Also if you had read ANY of what I've posted, I already said long ago that the actual coding of responses is incredibly complex and requires a lot of judging abilities on the AI's part. That being said, the end result is STILL "we programmed in responses to stimuli". Expand the AI's ability to process those possible responses to the stimuli, and you have yourself a better AI. I seriously don't understand how any of this is difficult to understand or see. I'd draw a chart but I'm horribad at MSPaint...
WCG has no record of a Oriol Vinyals competing. The only thing close is Oriol Prats Navarro a UT99 player from Spain. The website doesn't have players from the WCGC (2000) but also does not list Spain as one of the countries that competed that year.
Did he mean that he'd played in a preliminary of the Spain qualifiers for Spain? Because that's something significantly different.
EPT
