• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 03:52
CEST 09:52
KST 16:52
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation5$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced4Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles6[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China9Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL66
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing
Tourneys
$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
i aint gon lie to u bruh... ASL20 Preliminary Maps BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall SC uni coach streams logging into betting site
Tourneys
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 627 users

Let the fun begin. Activision Blizzard suing MBC - Page 5

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 36 37 38 Next All
Meriones
Profile Joined October 2010
43 Posts
October 23 2010 01:22 GMT
#81
The big question for the court is: Does the IP rights to an esports match belong to the players playing the game or to the devs of the game?

This is obviously not about the power of kespa. It is about the power of the player. It is fundamentally the players IP rights Blizzard is suing. SC BW players put in a tremendous effort to develop an exceptional skill at playing games people want to watch. They spend much much more time than Blizzard devs. If the court rules that the player has no role in the creation of this IP then that is a major blow for esports players.

Broadcasting channels/websites have no real problem. They can broadcast cheaply and get ad money. The player has to try to make a living. He can't if what he works so hard for is automatically owned by Blizzard.
zenMaster
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada761 Posts
October 23 2010 01:22 GMT
#82
GG Blizzard, time to get butt raped in court. Kespa will stand victorious over your greedy corporate bodies.
The court will probably force an agreement from both sides involving a sum of money paid to Blizzard, then Blizzard will stay the fuck away from Korean E-Sports.
Housemd
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1407 Posts
October 23 2010 01:22 GMT
#83
I don't get this. Why does Blizzard want to kill sc1??? Just to promote sc2?? In my opinion, sc2 is only attracting so many people due to sc1, if it wasn't for sc1 many people wouldn't even pick up sc2.. If Kespa collapses, how will that help promote the old pros to start picking up and playing sc2 or encourage other people to buy games from these two companies??? Unbelievable, to promote one game, you kill the other.

I hope that the public responds to this somehow (by public, i mean us). We need to take a stand and realize that Blizzard has just killed one whole generation of good gaming, just for a new one, which in my humble opinion, is not a good game at all.

Fantasy is a beast
mustaju
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Estonia4504 Posts
October 23 2010 01:22 GMT
#84
On October 23 2010 10:19 PandaPolice wrote:
People seems to have forgotten the articles a few weeks before, stating even in KeSPA, there are factions disagreeing with each other. My opinion is whoever controls how KeSPA moves now is causing all these troubles.

KeSPA won't be totally destroyed even if they lose. KeSPA will dissolve, the factions who probably supports Blizzard will break off and form another organisation since the potential/infrastructure of BW is still there. This new organisation gets Blizzard's support, teams gets transfer over, and the leagues can start again.

While I don't think Blizzard is entirely in the right, the move to broadcast even without permission is really disrespectful, not only ignoring Blizzard as the creator of said product, but also disregard Intellectual Property Law and all entities protected by it.


Whereas there were rumors on a power struggle in KeSPA, it didn't mention anything about any firm supporting Blizzard. So I have to stifle your optimism until confirmation.
WriterBrows somewhat high. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndFysO2JunE
Slow Motion
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States6960 Posts
October 23 2010 01:22 GMT
#85
Fuck you Blizzard. If they get this preliminary injunction I will rage so fucking hard. Our only hope now is that Korean IP laws are not as fucked up as the ones we have in the U.S.
ShivaN
Profile Joined January 2007
United States933 Posts
October 23 2010 01:22 GMT
#86
Saw this coming from the beginning, not surprised in the least. Sad days for BW ahead.
JiYan
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3668 Posts
October 23 2010 01:25 GMT
#87
T_T this is so sad. they have done so much for esports
toadstool
Profile Joined May 2006
Australia421 Posts
October 23 2010 01:26 GMT
#88
On October 23 2010 09:58 deafhobbit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2010 09:41 wishbones wrote:
with 2 weeks worth of profit from wow, they will win the trial. lol


Wow, you're an idiot.

Go look up the word "Chaebol."

Then, go look up how many of them sponsor Proleague teams.

"WoW profits" aint shit.


It doesn't matter about revenue, it comes down to money. Those companies aren't going to use $1billion dollars to protect themselves from a lawsuit over E-sports, it comes down to how much E-sports is worth to to them in terms of marketing value.

Companies exist to make money. Microsoft got sued for $200 million by a no name company, and they got rolled over.

http://www.itchannelplanet.com/business_news/article.php/3883076/Microsoft-200-Million-Settles-VPN-Patent-Infringement-Lawsuit.htm
NEWB?!
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
October 23 2010 01:29 GMT
#89
Guys come on, why are we so pessimistic about Kespa losing? Its more like 50/50 of who to come out in the end.
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
Slow Motion
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States6960 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-23 01:41:09
October 23 2010 01:29 GMT
#90
On October 23 2010 10:22 Meriones wrote:
The big question for the court is: Does the IP rights to an esports match belong to the players playing the game or to the devs of the game?

This is obviously not about the power of kespa. It is about the power of the player. It is fundamentally the players IP rights Blizzard is suing. SC BW players put in a tremendous effort to develop an exceptional skill at playing games people want to watch. They spend much much more time than Blizzard devs. If the court rules that the player has no role in the creation of this IP then that is a major blow for esports players.

Broadcasting channels/websites have no real problem. They can broadcast cheaply and get ad money. The player has to try to make a living. He can't if what he works so hard for is automatically owned by Blizzard.

I have no idea what Korean IP law is like, but under U.S. law it's settled that the gaming company has a copyright in all the gameplay that is created from the game (it's sad that the case law on this was developed by old ass judges who have no idea what the gaming industry is like, but whatever). I hope this isn't the case in Korea but I'm not optimistic.

Edit: if anyone is interested the case that illustrates U.S. law on this subject is Stern Electronics v. Kaufman, 669 F.2d 852 (2nd Cir. 1982).
Slow Motion
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States6960 Posts
October 23 2010 01:31 GMT
#91
On October 23 2010 10:29 Xiphos wrote:
Guys come on, why are we so pessimistic about Kespa losing? Its more like 50/50 of who to come out in the end.

We have no idea what the percentages are because I don't think any of us are Korean IP lawyers. I will say that under U.S. IP law MBC and OGN would be in huge trouble.
deafhobbit
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States828 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-23 01:36:40
October 23 2010 01:35 GMT
#92
On October 23 2010 10:26 toadstool wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2010 09:58 deafhobbit wrote:
On October 23 2010 09:41 wishbones wrote:
with 2 weeks worth of profit from wow, they will win the trial. lol


Wow, you're an idiot.

Go look up the word "Chaebol."

Then, go look up how many of them sponsor Proleague teams.

"WoW profits" aint shit.


It doesn't matter about revenue, it comes down to money. Those companies aren't going to use $1billion dollars to protect themselves from a lawsuit over E-sports, it comes down to how much E-sports is worth to to them in terms of marketing value.



What makes you think they need to? One of the defining characteristics of Chaebol is their ability to directly influence the government. South Korea isn't as corrupt as it was before the Asian Financial Crisis, but it's no model of pure governance.

And on the money front, Activision Blizzard is big, but it's utterly dwarfed by the size of the Chaebols. Wikipedia lists Activison Blizzard's total revenue for 2009 as 4.8 billion, compared to the SK group which made 78.6 billion in 2009, and Samsung group which made 173.4 billion in 2008. AB is completely out of their league.
I cheer for underdogs and Flash
aimaimaim
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Philippines2167 Posts
October 23 2010 01:36 GMT
#93
On October 23 2010 10:26 toadstool wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2010 09:58 deafhobbit wrote:
On October 23 2010 09:41 wishbones wrote:
with 2 weeks worth of profit from wow, they will win the trial. lol


Wow, you're an idiot.

Go look up the word "Chaebol."

Then, go look up how many of them sponsor Proleague teams.

"WoW profits" aint shit.


It doesn't matter about revenue, it comes down to money. Those companies aren't going to use $1billion dollars to protect themselves from a lawsuit over E-sports, it comes down to how much E-sports is worth to to them in terms of marketing value.

Companies exist to make money. Microsoft got sued for $200 million by a no name company, and they got rolled over.

http://www.itchannelplanet.com/business_news/article.php/3883076/Microsoft-200-Million-Settles-VPN-Patent-Infringement-Lawsuit.htm


so, do you think blizzard will use their own money to win this? activision cant even defeat those guys from infinity ward.
+ Show Spoiler +
i might be wrong though
Religion is a dying idea .. || 'E-sport' outside Korea are nerds who wants to feel like rockstars. || I'm not gonna fuck with trolls on General Forum ever again .. FUCK!
supernovamaniac
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States3046 Posts
October 23 2010 01:36 GMT
#94
Wait, if Activision Blizzard is suing... isn't that a giant FU to MBC AND Gretech?
ppp
dRaW
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada5744 Posts
October 23 2010 01:38 GMT
#95
lol blizzard so imba
I don't need luck, luck is for noobs, good luck to you though
aimaimaim
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Philippines2167 Posts
October 23 2010 01:39 GMT
#96
On October 23 2010 10:36 supernovamaniac wrote:
Wait, if Activision Blizzard is suing... isn't that a giant FU to MBC AND Gretech?


how come?

please do explain
Religion is a dying idea .. || 'E-sport' outside Korea are nerds who wants to feel like rockstars. || I'm not gonna fuck with trolls on General Forum ever again .. FUCK!
Kal_rA
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2925 Posts
October 23 2010 01:40 GMT
#97
On October 23 2010 09:36 Shiragaku wrote:
...For some reason, I am supporting MBC over Blizzard. Is that normal?

yes. very.

BW FIGHTING!
Jaedong.
Bleak
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Turkey3059 Posts
October 23 2010 01:41 GMT
#98
I'm just a law student here but I think the main argument here is that Blizzard intends the Starcraft scene in progaming is to be continued through Starcraft 2. Blizzard has invested a lot of money and effort for SC 2 (you may like the game or not, there's actually a product ) and wants the SC2 to take off. If the majority follows BW, they'll lose some of the benefits of the progaming scene. The logical solution here would be that Blizzard could make an agreement with the KESPA or whomever that has control over Korean BW scene, and agree on a money to be paid to Blizzard in order to "compensate" for the loss of benefits from the wieving that BW gets. As far as I can get, if KESPA or whomever has the control over the BW progaming / broadcasting refused to do so, and in that case, Blizzard wants to sue them. The reason why Blizzard did not sue through all the long years that BW scene was broadcasted, is that through the Korean scene, they gained attention, popularity, advertisement and benefits of these so and so on. But,since BW has kind of fulfilled its role for Blizzard's interests, all that past advertisement does not matter now I suppose.

Would love if theres someone with alot of knowledge on IP rights would clarify this case though Just tried to understand the reasons of this suit.
"I am a beacon of knowledge blazing out across a black sea of ignorance. "
Redmark
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada2129 Posts
October 23 2010 01:41 GMT
#99
On October 23 2010 10:35 deafhobbit wrote:
What makes you think they need to? One of the defining characteristics of Chaebol is their ability to directly influence the government. South Korea isn't as corrupt as it was before the Asian Financial Crisis, but it's no model of pure governance.

And on the money front, Activision Blizzard is big, but it's utterly dwarfed by the size of the Chaebols. Wikipedia lists Activison Blizzard's total revenue for 2009 as 4.8 billion, compared to the SK group which made 78.6 billion in 2009, and Samsung group which made 173.4 billion in 2008. AB is completely out of their league.

You completely missed his point, he's talking about how much e-sports is worth to these companies. If they don't care enough, they're not going to bribe the judges or whatever it is you're saying.

I don't know enough to say which side is right here, but I kind of think the nature of intellectual property is more important than 'omg we did so much for you!!!1' or 'omg activision greedy!!!' that people like to throw out so much. There's never really anything new in these threads, just a bunch of people saying the same things they said before.
Whiladan
Profile Joined September 2010
United States463 Posts
October 23 2010 01:43 GMT
#100
Article taken from: http://iplawyer.wordpress.com/


+ Show Spoiler +
I haven’t searched for news articles written in English. If there are any well translated article, I would welcome it.

There are some facts that were revealed in news.

Blizzard tried to negotiate an agreement with KeSPa. (Oh, BTW, KeSPA is Korean eSports Association.) They couldn’t reach a deal.
Blizzard then struck a deal with Gretech. Gretech makes Gom TV, Gom Player and other multimedia platforms. Gom TV is an internet TV under the Korean Copyright Act, I believe.
KeSPA is blaming Blizzard for claiming intellectual property rights on Starcraft Original, Starcraft II and other games.
Legal aspects of this incident seems clear but unconvincing. Unconvincing because of a Seoul High Court decision in 2007 on the copyrightability of a game character. (will explain more below)

Blizzard has rights in the computer program underneath Starcraft II as a computer program work.
Blizzard also has rights in the artworks, music and scripts (displayed on the screed or not) of Starcraft II. However, there is a major loophole created by the Seoul High Court decision in 2007. Let me quote and translate relevant paragraph.
On whether a character is copyrightable independently from the whole game.

On the issue of whether a character that appear in the “Live Baseball” game is copyrightable independently from the game,
Works of art like “Live Baseball” are composed of many elements: characters, plot, scenario, various options, tools, etc. The allegedly copyrightable character is merely an element of the work of art. The character is not considered an independently copyrightable work of art unless the character acquires an independent copyrightability through merchandising of the character.

In addition, Article 2(1) of the Copyright Act defines “work of art” as “creation that expresses human thought or emotion.” The creation means expression itself. A character is an image that are separate from the expression and that are formed in the minds of people. That is, a character is an abstract concept of a personality that are formed from concrete expressions that appear in each scenes, and it is not an expression. Therefore, a character itself is not a creative expression of a thought or emotion.

In conclusion, protecting the game play of “Live Baseball” as visual work of art is sufficient. A character, independently from the game play, is insufficient to be protected as copyrightable work of art.
(Seoul High Court, 2007.8.22., Seon Go. 2006 Na 72392 Pan Gyul)

This case creates a lot of confusion in understanding what to license in when one wants to hold a game competition.

According to the case, Blizzard has copyright in the game play screen of Starcraft II but does not in the game units (marine, medic, zergling, dragoon, or you name it).

Anyhow, it can be reasoned that the audio visual screen of the game play is a derivative work of the Starcraft II. That means, game players need to get a permission from Blizzard. Do they need a permission for game play at home? No. Blizzard Starcraft II license agreement covers game play at home.

Suppose game players has permission from Blizzard, what should broadcasting companies do? Broadcasting companies should get a permission from the game players for broadcasting their plays.

These are the legal landscape of the Starcraft II game convnetion.

What does KeSPA have to do with the above picture?

KeSPA is an association of the game teams. Game teams have contracts with game players. Game players’ plays are work for hire. So, the liability belongs to game teams.

Looks complicated, but it’s not so.

Simply speaking, Blizzard has every right to flunk the deal with KeSPA and give exclusive rights to Gretech. If KeSPA goes on with what it has been doing and ignores the Blizzard-Gretech deal, they will meet in court and will probably pay their sorry money.

Interesting thing is that Blizzard is said to have requested too much from KeSPA, terms that it can’t accept.

I can’t list all the leak-outs of the deal here because I haven’t seen them myself.

I thought from the beginning that this is a business deal and has not much to shed further light on the copyright system or IPR laws in Korea.

KeSPA’s argument that it contributed to the success of Starcraft by making the game competition industry as it stands now is a simple BS.

I’d like to draw your attention to the fact that Gretech is an internet TV company and technically it can broadcast to the North America and Europe or anywhere else. I couldn’t get a hold of the license agreement between Blizzard and Gretech, but I’m sure the geographic scope of the license is limited to Korea. But the license agreement can be amended any time. If Blizzard considers that internet TVs are the right platform for game broadcasting, it might consider broadening the license to worldwide and start shooting game plays all around the world.



TL;DR, lots of legal mumbo jumbo that I will not pretend to interpret, but one small bit sums it up pretty well:

"Simply speaking, Blizzard has every right to flunk the deal with KeSPA and give exclusive rights to Gretech. If KeSPA goes on with what it has been doing and ignores the Blizzard-Gretech deal, they will meet in court and will probably pay their sorry money."
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 36 37 38 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 8m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
JimRising 558
trigger 10
StarCraft: Brood War
TY 623
Zeus 350
actioN 328
Larva 157
Leta 129
PianO 126
Shuttle 108
Noble 52
sSak 46
yabsab 19
[ Show more ]
Sacsri 19
Nal_rA 14
Sharp 10
Dota 2
XaKoH 516
XcaliburYe290
Fuzer 171
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K737
Other Games
shahzam1361
monkeys_forever219
Happy20
crisheroes20
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick35128
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH361
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• tankgirl 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2147
League of Legends
• Lourlo1599
• Stunt497
• HappyZerGling91
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
2h 8m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
8h 8m
WardiTV European League
8h 8m
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
Replay Cast
16h 8m
RSL Revival
1d 2h
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
OSC
1d 5h
Replay Cast
1d 16h
RSL Revival
2 days
Classic vs Cure
FEL
2 days
OSC
2 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
3 days
FEL
3 days
FEL
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-07-07
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.