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infinitestory
United States3708 Posts
On November 01 2010 12:20 domovoi wrote: At least enlighten me on some of these "misconceptions." For one, according to KeSPA, running a tournament generates no profit if not a significant debt. | ||
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night terrors
China1284 Posts
On November 01 2010 12:20 domovoi wrote: At least enlighten me on some of these "misconceptions." BW progaming is not a massively profitable enterprise. In fact, profit does not figure as a major incentive for the actors involved. Sponsors, which mantain teams and leagues, are in it for the advertising value that sponsoring has (I guess you could extrapolate from that effective profits for the companies, but BW progaming as is doesnt entail profits) Activision-Blizzard is a company that earns a lot by means of WoW. The 'cut' they could get has little monetary value for them. This whole ordeal is intended to set strict lines for the difusion of SC2 as a spectator sport that is intended to take place eventaully in Korea. One doubts if this plan to turn SC2 into a eSport doesnt entail ending BW's prominence as the RTS eSport in Korea. This is (mainly) speculation, but founded speculation at least. KeSPA's control isnt as good as one could imagine it to be, but then again, it does more good than harm when you relate it with the possible incursion of Blizzard as a rector of eSports. These misconceptions are far more profound than I can make of here, and there are people much more qualified to comment on them. Most of these are clarified in various threads, including this one, but I am aware that it is quite disheartening to have to skim through rants, stupid posts, etc. to actually find them and read them. | ||
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SubPointOA
United States183 Posts
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mrdx
Vietnam1555 Posts
I just can't understand why KeSPA stirred up all this shit in the first place, when they should have realized that they needed an agreement with Blizzard more than the other way around, and that they were the weaker side in this relationship. I don't really care about Blizzard's intentions in this battle whether they wanted to kill off SCBW or just being greedy or whatever, the thing that annoyed me the most was the fact that KeSPA, being self-centered, arrogant and short-sighted as they have always been, has handled this entire thing extremely poorly. Now, even if KeSPA/MBCGame wins this lawsuit outright (which sounds ridiculously absurd if it would happen, but let's just say so hypothetically). What will KeSPA have? A shrinking SCBW scene with virtually no more new players joining, a dead War3 scene, and a bunch of fail FPS/racing games that no one gives a shit about no matter how hard KeSPA tried to promote it. Moreover, the worst outcome of all in my opinion from this lawsuit (if KeSPA wins), is that it will set a very bad precedence to any future game IP right disputes in Korea. Any big game developer will have to think twice when they want to make an eSport game for the Korean market, as they won't have any negotiation power against KeSPA if their game ever becomes a popular eSport choice. Game developers will either have to resort to cheap tactics like disabling LAN, or just stop investing into eSport games at all. And that is only if KeSPA wins this legal battle. If they lose, things could be even worse. This is a lose-lose fight for KeSPA. For Blizzard, it won't hurt them that much (they will probably take it as a lesson for Diablo3 and War4). In an ideal world, if KeSPA really cared about the future of eSports, they should have immediately sat down with Blizzard when SC2 project was first announced, to resolve any IP right issues and planned a co-existing future for SC1 and SC2. Too bad this KeSPA we have today is no longer the same people who created our amazing SCBW proscene 10 years ago... | ||
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ShadeR
Australia6925 Posts
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seRapH
United States8705 Posts
even if sc2 proscene dies as a result of StarCraft: Brood War's (may it be forever enshrined in glory) death, blizzard will still be happily alive with WoW and crap >.< | ||
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mrdx
Vietnam1555 Posts
On November 01 2010 14:10 ShadeR wrote: And the Blizzard we have today is neither the same one that created SC. I know, but I don't care. What I care about is the Korean eSports scene, something that has been entertaining me for nearly 7 years now. As someone who always claim to work "for the better future of eSports", KeSPA board could have done better. In this battle, if there is one side that needs to step back for the future of eSports, it's them. | ||
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domovoi
United States1474 Posts
On November 01 2010 12:31 night terrors wrote: BW progaming is not a massively profitable enterprise. In fact, profit does not figure as a major incentive for the actors involved. Sponsors, which mantain teams and leagues, are in it for the advertising value that sponsoring has (I guess you could extrapolate from that effective profits for the companies, but BW progaming as is doesnt entail profits) Activision-Blizzard is a company that earns a lot by means of WoW. The 'cut' they could get has little monetary value for them. This whole ordeal is intended to set strict lines for the difusion of SC2 as a spectator sport that is intended to take place eventaully in Korea. One doubts if this plan to turn SC2 into a eSport doesnt entail ending BW's prominence as the RTS eSport in Korea. This is (mainly) speculation, but founded speculation at least. KeSPA's control isnt as good as one could imagine it to be, but then again, it does more good than harm when you relate it with the possible incursion of Blizzard as a rector of eSports. These misconceptions are far more profound than I can make of here, and there are people much more qualified to comment on them. Most of these are clarified in various threads, including this one, but I am aware that it is quite disheartening to have to skim through rants, stupid posts, etc. to actually find them and read them. Thanks for the explanation. KeSPA is a non-profit organization, so obviously it does not profit from eSports. As it said in its statement, it reinvests all of its extra income back into the operation, as I imagine it is required to under Korean law regarding non-profit organizations. However, this says very little about the profitability of its members and affiliates, specifically, the team sponsors and the broadcasters. As you mentioned, advertising is the key revenue generator, but that is true for any professional sport (the other avenues of revenue are ticket sales and merchandise; I have to imagine there's some money being made there, unless they're poor businessmen). Given eSports' popularity in Korea and the fact that several gaming channels have been sustainable, as well as Blizzard's sustained interest in the industry (I mean, why even care about KeSPA if there's no money in it), it must be fairly profitable. More concrete evidence would certainly be helpful, though. Regarding Blizzard, I'm certain it would prefer if SC2 became more prominent than BW. However, I do not see how "killing" BW would help achieve that goal when BW has a lot of valued infrastructure in terms of established talent, distribution and viewership. By no means should a wise businessman simply assume such infrastructure could easily be transferred to SC2, especially when a significant amount of investment would be lost along the way. Basically, if BW were to suddenly disappear, there is no guarantee the best talent would move to SC2, nor is there any guarantee viewers would follow, especially since SC2 strategies are in a volatile state and thus pose a significant risk to the success of top-flight talent. In addition, why even bother negotiating for 3 years if their intent was simply to kill off the industry, in which case there is nothing to negotiate and they might as well have sued earlier? It seems to me that given KeSPA's position as the sole gatekeeper of established sponsors, broadcasters and talent, this gives it a significant amount of leverage against Blizzard, leverage which Blizzard can only counteract with its IP claims. I do not necessarily see this as a bad thing, as eSports in Korea is in dire need of some form of competition. It would, of course, be preferable if KeSPA did not hold artificial control over a significant portion of the industry and if Blizzard did not hold artificial control over broadcast rights of its games. Hopefully a settlement can be reached. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2102 Posts
@ mrdx Funny, Blizzard is also singing " for the future of e-Sport " .. And unlike Kespa who actually set up a scene and got things going nicely for 10 years, all Blizz did was making games n selling them, contributing essentially nothing to said scene in said 10 years.. How is it that in your rage you blame Kespa for everything and Blizz for none? Blizz: + Contribute nothing to the scene (outside of selling said game) + Earned money (Korea bought half the number of copies of SC:BW aka best-selling RTS of all time) + Free advertisement for 10 years.. More advertisements to come if SC2 solidify its position as an e-Sport title. Kespa: - Keep the scene running for 10 years.. Even when they are running a deficit (according to their reports). Whos the one who should give in more? That said, im biting my nails in hope for SC:BW to take it home. Go MBC!! *pray* | ||
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ShadeR
Australia6925 Posts
On November 01 2010 14:39 mrdx wrote: I know, but I don't care. What I care about is the Korean eSports scene, something that has been entertaining me for nearly 7 years now. As someone who always claim to work "for the better future of eSports", KeSPA board could have done better. In this battle, if there is one side that needs to step back for the future of eSports, it's them. Kespa let me watch Proleague + OSL + MSL for free. I'm quite satisfied. | ||
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Solai
204 Posts
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dcemuser
United States3246 Posts
I don't know exactly what demands Blizzard made, nor the counterdemands KeSPA made, and yes, I've read all the articles and blogs posted on TL.net so far about it. We, as a public, don't have any idea exactly what happened in the negotiation rooms. We have outside reports from one individual or one side (usually KeSPA was the one breaking the NDA), but nothing conclusive. In my opinion, leaving this topic open for comments is just a bad idea because nobody knows what will happen in court, and nobody knows what has happened thus far (NDA). I could say "I hope Blizzard wins" but then I realized I don't know if Blizzard made unreasonable demands (KeSPA thinks they did, but Blizzard thinks they didn't). I could say "I hope KeSPA wins" but then game companies will be screwed out of their IP rights in Korea. | ||
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Ordained
United States751 Posts
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AyJay
1515 Posts
On November 01 2010 12:27 infinitestory wrote: For one, according to KeSPA, running a tournament generates no profit if not a significant debt. KeSPA is just organization behind teams and sponsors. DO you really think teams and sponsors don't generate profit from e-sports? | ||
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ShadeR
Australia6925 Posts
However none of this means that KeSPA makes a profit because as you have said yourself, "KeSPA is just organization behind teams and sponsors." Just because I want to buy a samsung galaxy S because stork has one, doesn't mean KeSPA profits. I think your misunderstanding the relationship between KeSPA and the companies that sponsor the teams. The sponsors simply have some of their own within KeSPA as is expected as I'm sure KIA have some of their own within the ranks of the tennis governing body for grandslams. I'll stand corrected if you can prove otherwise. Theres also that everything I've typed will mean nothing to you if you dispute the fact that KeSPA is a NFP organisation...which is quite ridiculous as not even blizzard will dispute that. Hence one of the major reasons why they are taking MBCgame to court rather than KeSPA. | ||
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aMaJinG
United States25 Posts
Of course greed may win out in the end, and nothing wins hearts and minds like a huge prizepool.... but why go through the trouble?... and have they even considered it? | ||
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domovoi
United States1474 Posts
On November 01 2010 18:13 dcemuser wrote: I spent quite a bit of time thinking of how to respond to this post, but then I realized I couldn't. I don't know exactly what demands Blizzard made, nor the counterdemands KeSPA made, and yes, I've read all the articles and blogs posted on TL.net so far about it. We, as a public, don't have any idea exactly what happened in the negotiation rooms. We have outside reports from one individual or one side (usually KeSPA was the one breaking the NDA), but nothing conclusive. In my opinion, leaving this topic open for comments is just a bad idea because nobody knows what will happen in court, and nobody knows what has happened thus far (NDA). I could say "I hope Blizzard wins" but then I realized I don't know if Blizzard made unreasonable demands (KeSPA thinks they did, but Blizzard thinks they didn't). I could say "I hope KeSPA wins" but then game companies will be screwed out of their IP rights in Korea. I agree 100%. The dearth of information is frustrating. If Blizzard truly is trying to kill BW, then that is deplorable. If it's simply a matter of some wealth transfers between two faceless corporations, then none of us should care and we should be happy that there's finally some competition to KeSPA. | ||
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domovoi
United States1474 Posts
Domovoi, why dont you start by figuring out how revenue is generated at all in SC:BW proscene, rather than randomly speculating that parties involve can earn big bucks etc.. I've tried to look for such information, but I can't find it. I'm inclined to think there's a non-insignificant amount of money to be made given viewership numbers and Blizzard's interest in the market. So it's not random speculation. | ||
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Longshank
1635 Posts
On November 01 2010 12:27 infinitestory wrote:+ Show Spoiler + On November 01 2010 12:20 domovoi wrote: At least enlighten me on some of these "misconceptions." For one, according to KeSPA, running a tournament generates no profit if not a significant debt. And still KeSPA managed to sell a year of Proleague for what, $500.000 was it? And now all of a sudden they claim it generates no profit while refusing to let Blizzard audit their books. I wouldn't be so fast to call it a 'misconception'. | ||
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_Quasar_
Russian Federation4404 Posts
You arrogant liars, because koreans didn't steal anything from you, but instead gave SC1 his popularity and thus brought you your precious profit. And Boxer / Nada go to hell too, for not doing anything to it (read: to e-sports that you've been creating yourselves). | ||
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