On October 28 2010 08:39 infinity2k9 wrote: I wish people would stop bringing the GOM Season 3 thing up. As if we needed another individual league that nobody practiced for. Yes it had English commentators, great. Tasteless going on about the pandabear guy was funny the first few times.
Why are you bringing up English commentary as if it's a bad thing. It sure as hell beats Korean commentary, and I'm sure if Tasteless was paid to cover the proleague you'd be all over his nuts.
Noone brings up English commentary as a bad thing. It's just not as important as team-support for the league and not over-burdening the players. Do you disagree with that assessment?
On October 28 2010 08:39 infinity2k9 wrote: I wish people would stop bringing the GOM Season 3 thing up. As if we needed another individual league that nobody practiced for. Yes it had English commentators, great. Tasteless going on about the pandabear guy was funny the first few times.
Why are you bringing up English commentary as if it's a bad thing. It sure as hell beats Korean commentary, and I'm sure if Tasteless was paid to cover the proleague you'd be all over his nuts.
Nope. The english commentary is one of many reasons why I find GSL far less exciting to watch compared to PL/OSL/MSL. Having english commentary as an option is great, but I would never trade Korean commentary for Tasteless/Artosis/Day[9] commentary. I'm sure many others feel the same way.
On October 28 2010 08:39 infinity2k9 wrote: I wish people would stop bringing the GOM Season 3 thing up. As if we needed another individual league that nobody practiced for. Yes it had English commentators, great. Tasteless going on about the pandabear guy was funny the first few times.
Why are you bringing up English commentary as if it's a bad thing. It sure as hell beats Korean commentary, and I'm sure if Tasteless was paid to cover the proleague you'd be all over his nuts.
Nope. The english commentary is one of many reasons why I find GSL far less exciting to watch compared to PL/OSL/MSL. Having english commentary as an option is great, but I would never trade Korean commentary for Tasteless/Artosis/Day[9] commentary. I'm sure many others feel the same way.
I second this post. In my opinion, Korean commentary show much more enthusiasm and is thus able to elevate the excitement of watching a game to the next level.
On October 28 2010 08:39 infinity2k9 wrote: I wish people would stop bringing the GOM Season 3 thing up. As if we needed another individual league that nobody practiced for. Yes it had English commentators, great. Tasteless going on about the pandabear guy was funny the first few times.
Why are you bringing up English commentary as if it's a bad thing. It sure as hell beats Korean commentary, and I'm sure if Tasteless was paid to cover the proleague you'd be all over his nuts.
Nope. The english commentary is one of many reasons why I find GSL far less exciting to watch compared to PL/OSL/MSL. Having english commentary as an option is great, but I would never trade Korean commentary for Tasteless/Artosis/Day[9] commentary. I'm sure many others feel the same way.
I second this post. In my opinion, Korean commentary show much more enthusiasm and is thus able to elevate the excitement of watching a game to the next level.
I agree, although having said that the GSL Korean commentators are nowhere near as good as the OGN ones.
On October 28 2010 08:39 infinity2k9 wrote: I wish people would stop bringing the GOM Season 3 thing up. As if we needed another individual league that nobody practiced for. Yes it had English commentators, great. Tasteless going on about the pandabear guy was funny the first few times.
Why are you bringing up English commentary as if it's a bad thing. It sure as hell beats Korean commentary, and I'm sure if Tasteless was paid to cover the proleague you'd be all over his nuts.
Nope. The english commentary is one of many reasons why I find GSL far less exciting to watch compared to PL/OSL/MSL. Having english commentary as an option is great, but I would never trade Korean commentary for Tasteless/Artosis/Day[9] commentary. I'm sure many others feel the same way.
I second this post. In my opinion, Korean commentary show much more enthusiasm and is thus able to elevate the excitement of watching a game to the next level.
I agree, although having said that the GSL Korean commentators are nowhere near as good as the OGN ones.
Or even the MBC ones. That GOM girls voice gets on my nerves every time, even in the background.
The main problem that I have with all this commentary business is that NOBODY ELSE CAN DO THEM. Nothing from Gom can go up on Youtube or anything, so it's Tastleless/Artosis or nothing. For Brood War, we've had Cholera, Klazart, Nuke, Ranshin, Rise, Diggity, Moletrap, etc. Or, as many prefer, just the Korean commentators. Not necessarily a big fan of all of them, but the point is that you had a choice, and new people could always start doing commentaries if they wanted to. With the GSL, that is all gone. Not a lotta fun.
- pretty much built up everything from scratch - Kespa doesn't treat players well and has a monopoly on everything that happens - dismissed Blizzard at almost every opportunity in the current conflict - started leagues regardless of the current issues
[...]
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing. [...]
You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract.
Sorry this has already been gone over and over in the last few pages but some people dont even understand the real world at all apparently and how things work. What you are saying doesn't even make sense. KeSPA has the players because they had a draft, chose the players and gave them contracts. Many many players never even make it. There's no shortage of willing gamers out there. But you can't expect to take other teams contracted players to come and play for you can you?
Run your OWN draft, make your own teams, get your own sponsors. The reason there is no other KeSPA is because its a niche market already and there really is zero need for it in the first place. If i went to Korea, started my own Super Starcraft Power League, drafted gamers got teams and did everything needed to run eSports then KeSPA could not stop me. There might be disagreements about broadcasting because the main 2 channels are OGN and MBC but that is how business works, its competitive. If i gave the broadcasters a great offer i could get my SSPL on TV and be the main BW league. Of course none of this will happen because its completely financially not viable. But don't call it a monopoly as if KeSPA is somehow forcing this imaginary competition out of the business.
Btw i'm not some blind supporter in this argument, KeSPA and in particular sometimes its rule decisions and player drafting is harsh on the players. But that's how things are, no organization is perfect. It's like FIFA refusing goal-line technology even though we clearly need it. But when it comes to the business side of things and how they have created such a sustainable and well run scene, there's no way anyone should want to disrupt that. The only reason Blizzard do is for control/profit, simple as that.
Mate, I think you should check your definitions or take some economics classes.
I don't know why you stubbornly refuse to call KESPA a monopoly (I mean, who cares) when it obviously is one. I mean, if you take KESPA out of the BW market, you'll have:
??? (some Chinese tournaments) WCG (16 players)
Why are you so intent on arguing with this? You don't seem to argue any point than that it is a monopoly, despite me clearly explaining a whole situation that shows it would not be, is there no reason anyone else cannot start their own KeSPA. What monopolistic business practices are they pursuing, considering we are talking about a non-profit anyway. Is FIFA a monopoly? Or any other sports organizations such as the NFL? Using monopoly in a negative term in this discussion is very unnecessary and silly. It's clearly not a coercive monopoly, and it's not a natural monopoly either.
If i'm a sole trader who's business is selling something completely unique, would you say i was a monopoly despite not actually doing any actions or having any control to hinder anyone elses access to that market? Even if it was technically true you know full well it's commonly used as a negative term and certainly in regards to this matter it is. This analogy is dumb anyway because we are talking about what's supposed to now be regarded a sport.
On October 28 2010 08:39 infinity2k9 wrote: I wish people would stop bringing the GOM Season 3 thing up. As if we needed another individual league that nobody practiced for. Yes it had English commentators, great. Tasteless going on about the pandabear guy was funny the first few times.
Why are you bringing up English commentary as if it's a bad thing. It sure as hell beats Korean commentary, and I'm sure if Tasteless was paid to cover the proleague you'd be all over his nuts.
You really want to argue every point you? I just don't care about the commentary, which is the only reason any gets so defensive over GOM, It was very amateur and sloppy at times. But the main point is the GOM was not needed and nobody practiced for it, that's why the level of play was so bad. While that was entertaining in a way in cannot compare to the real leagues. English commentators for the KeSPA tournaments would be great if it was actually done well and professionally, but other than that i don't care. Anyone who watches MSL/OSL/PL regularly knows GOM was a joke in comparison.
Back to the commentary point, i honestly didnt think that theres anyone that could have preferred the English commentaries (from Tasteless and Artosis).. In my opinion, they lack both indepth knowledge for the game, as well as the passion as a commentators (or lack of ability to express their own passion).. Im excited by the Korean commentators in many games that i watch, they are filled with excitement during exciting situations, their emotions really get to me during games and make me more excited too.. Whereas the Tastosis commentary were (pardon me) an ear-sore for me.. I muted the stream everytime i tried to watch Sc2.. Even the Observer for BW is much more skillful, and i appreciate observers even more after that series between Hincram and MasterAsia (SC2)..
- pretty much built up everything from scratch - Kespa doesn't treat players well and has a monopoly on everything that happens - dismissed Blizzard at almost every opportunity in the current conflict - started leagues regardless of the current issues
[...]
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing. [...]
You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract.
Sorry this has already been gone over and over in the last few pages but some people dont even understand the real world at all apparently and how things work. What you are saying doesn't even make sense. KeSPA has the players because they had a draft, chose the players and gave them contracts. Many many players never even make it. There's no shortage of willing gamers out there. But you can't expect to take other teams contracted players to come and play for you can you?
Run your OWN draft, make your own teams, get your own sponsors. The reason there is no other KeSPA is because its a niche market already and there really is zero need for it in the first place. If i went to Korea, started my own Super Starcraft Power League, drafted gamers got teams and did everything needed to run eSports then KeSPA could not stop me. There might be disagreements about broadcasting because the main 2 channels are OGN and MBC but that is how business works, its competitive. If i gave the broadcasters a great offer i could get my SSPL on TV and be the main BW league. Of course none of this will happen because its completely financially not viable. But don't call it a monopoly as if KeSPA is somehow forcing this imaginary competition out of the business.
Btw i'm not some blind supporter in this argument, KeSPA and in particular sometimes its rule decisions and player drafting is harsh on the players. But that's how things are, no organization is perfect. It's like FIFA refusing goal-line technology even though we clearly need it. But when it comes to the business side of things and how they have created such a sustainable and well run scene, there's no way anyone should want to disrupt that. The only reason Blizzard do is for control/profit, simple as that.
Mate, I think you should check your definitions or take some economics classes.
I don't know why you stubbornly refuse to call KESPA a monopoly (I mean, who cares) when it obviously is one. I mean, if you take KESPA out of the BW market, you'll have:
??? (some Chinese tournaments) WCG (16 players)
Why are you so intent on arguing with this? You don't seem to argue any point than that it is a monopoly, despite me clearly explaining a whole situation that shows it would not be, is there no reason anyone else cannot start their own KeSPA. What monopolistic business practices are they pursuing, considering we are talking about a non-profit anyway. Is FIFA a monopoly? Or any other sports organizations such as the NFL? Using monopoly in a negative term in this discussion is very unnecessary and silly. It's clearly not a coercive monopoly, and it's not a natural monopoly either.
If i'm a sole trader who's business is selling something completely unique, would you say i was a monopoly despite not actually doing any actions or having any control to hinder anyone elses access to that market? Even if it was technically true you know full well it's commonly used as a negative term and certainly in regards to this matter it is. This analogy is dumb anyway because we are talking about what's supposed to now be regarded a sport.
On October 28 2010 08:39 infinity2k9 wrote: I wish people would stop bringing the GOM Season 3 thing up. As if we needed another individual league that nobody practiced for. Yes it had English commentators, great. Tasteless going on about the pandabear guy was funny the first few times.
Why are you bringing up English commentary as if it's a bad thing. It sure as hell beats Korean commentary, and I'm sure if Tasteless was paid to cover the proleague you'd be all over his nuts.
You really want to argue every point you? I just don't care about the commentary, which is the only reason any gets so defensive over GOM, It was very amateur and sloppy at times. But the main point is the GOM was not needed and nobody practiced for it, that's why the level of play was so bad. While that was entertaining in a way in cannot compare to the real leagues. English commentators for the KeSPA tournaments would be great if it was actually done well and professionally, but other than that i don't care. Anyone who watches MSL/OSL/PL regularly knows GOM was a joke in comparison.
That's because FIFA and the NFL is recognised as the governing body of their respective sports. And yes, they are monopolies. What of it?
I think it's more the way you put your arguments about which I find annoying You use outlandish statements to back up your arguments. "Anyone who watches MSL/OSL/PL regularly knows GOM was a joke in comparison."
And sorry , the level of play for GSL was not bad. It's not Starcraft standards, but it's definitely not bad.
But each to their own I guess. I prefer to understand my commentary, if the PL had English commentary I would definitely pay $20 to watch.
On October 28 2010 18:20 toadstool wrote: That's because FIFA and the NFL is recognised as the governing body of their respective sports. And yes, they are monopolies. What of it?
I think it's more the way you put your arguments about which I find annoying You use outlandish statements to back up your arguments. "Anyone who watches MSL/OSL/PL regularly knows GOM was a joke in comparison."
And sorry , the level of play for GSL was not bad. It's not Starcraft standards, but it's definitely not bad.
But each to their own I guess. I prefer to understand my commentary, if the PL had English commentary I would definitely pay $20 to watch.
FIFA and NFL are not monopolies. there are amateur and junior leagues for soccer and football etc that organize their own tournament with prize pools and even broadcast their games locally.
On October 28 2010 18:20 toadstool wrote: That's because FIFA and the NFL is recognised as the governing body of their respective sports. And yes, they are monopolies. What of it?
I think it's more the way you put your arguments about which I find annoying You use outlandish statements to back up your arguments. "Anyone who watches MSL/OSL/PL regularly knows GOM was a joke in comparison."
And sorry , the level of play for GSL was not bad. It's not Starcraft standards, but it's definitely not bad.
But each to their own I guess. I prefer to understand my commentary, if the PL had English commentary I would definitely pay $20 to watch.
FIFA and NFL are not monopolies. there are amateur and junior leagues for soccer and football etc that organize their own tournament with prize pools and even broadcast their games locally.
You don't need to be the only company in a field to be a monopoly. Microsoft dealt with this in the past when it got taken to court.
On October 28 2010 18:20 toadstool wrote: That's because FIFA and the NFL is recognised as the governing body of their respective sports. And yes, they are monopolies. What of it?
I think it's more the way you put your arguments about which I find annoying You use outlandish statements to back up your arguments. "Anyone who watches MSL/OSL/PL regularly knows GOM was a joke in comparison."
And sorry , the level of play for GSL was not bad. It's not Starcraft standards, but it's definitely not bad.
But each to their own I guess. I prefer to understand my commentary, if the PL had English commentary I would definitely pay $20 to watch.
FIFA and NFL are not monopolies. there are amateur and junior leagues for soccer and football etc that organize their own tournament with prize pools and even broadcast their games locally.
You don't need to be the only company in a field to be a monopoly. Microsoft dealt with this in the past when it got taken to court.
Microsoft lost a court case because of their bundling of software with new computer users therefore supposedly giving the user less choice. It's not really relevant to this discussion at all.
On October 28 2010 17:55 ffreakk wrote: Back to the commentary point, i honestly didnt think that theres anyone that could have preferred the English commentaries (from Tasteless and Artosis).. In my opinion, they lack both indepth knowledge for the game, as well as the passion as a commentators (or lack of ability to express their own passion).. Im excited by the Korean commentators in many games that i watch, they are filled with excitement during exciting situations, their emotions really get to me during games and make me more excited too.. Whereas the Tastosis commentary were (pardon me) an ear-sore for me.. I muted the stream everytime i tried to watch Sc2.. Even the Observer for BW is much more skillful, and i appreciate observers even more after that series between Hincram and MasterAsia (SC2)..
I don't see how the bolded phrase could be a relevant issue if you're watching the cast in a language you don't understand. You would get considerably less knowledge listening to Korean besides the obligatory 'PLAAAGGGUU" from BW or it's SC2 equivalent.
I, in turn, am surprised that you would be surprised that people would want casts in a language understandable to them. Are you in the habit of watching sports games with casters in another language? (To counter the 'I-don't-need-a-caster-to-tell-me-what's-going-on'... I also do not need a commentator giving me a play by play in ice hockey, yet I prefer to watch it in my own language.) I like to watch films from China, but I prefer to have the subtitles on. Are these things so strange? Perhaps this is because you began watching the proleagues before the GOMTV Avertec/ youtube commentator days and were used to not knowing what they were saying? But most people joining after the early years, would not be so dedicated to that viewing experience.
But this is no way to expand e-sports outside of Korea. The average non-Korean gamer will have to be enormously interested to bother watching games with a language barrier. E-sports is already a niche viewing experience, why wish to obfuscate the experience arbitrarily and deliberately? (Doesn't really matter whether the non-Korean is English-speaking, German, or whatever. Most people getting into an area of interest are going to want it in their own language- is that really such a surprise?)
I find prefering Korean casters over english ones extremely weird. I guess it must simply be because you got used to it first. Because, sense it makes not. I guess excitment is nice but anyone who hasnt played the game (indepth) has no clue whats going on or why they are excited. And even if have played alot you might not see why their so excited. Ive watched those youtube videos with montages of great games or whatever and the Koreans are screamiing about something but all I see is pixels moving. I have absolutely no clue what is happening and thus Im not excited. I might be watching the greatest thing in the universe but I wouldnt know since all I hear is gibberish.
i dont care what happens as long as there is broodwar for me to watch, and it seems that if blizzard wins then we can all say farewell to broodwar. so, even though kespa isnt perfect, go kespa!
I thought this thread was about Blizzard suing MBCGame, it seems I am wrong and it is instead about Commentary and the definition of Monopoly. Here's what I think:
Monopoly:
If you guys don't get your definitions right, how can you expect to even come to a point on this? While it may or may not be a monopoly in terms of definition, for Broodwar leagues in Korea it definitely feels like one.
For me, a monopoly in any field means that all or most power over that field is controlled by one body. And that body is the Kespa for Broodwar. Of course you can start your own leagues, but if there aren't any good players participating, it is of no use. And since all good players are bound to Kespa by contract, that is the case. (For example: While you can get and run another OS than Windows, for many common applications, there just are no Linux or even Mac versions. Of course can I run my Ubuntu, but if over 90% of Computers run Windows, that is a monopoly for Microsoft there.)
Commentary: Well, I think that is a totally personal preference. I do like the "Tastosis" Commentary a lot, it is fun, and they provide enough indepth knowledge to entertain me. Otherwise, I can as much understand People that would rather hear the korean cast, they are normally far more excited about matches. It's pretty much useless to argue about that.
On the original thematic: That is a hard one. While I don't necessarily like the KeSPA itself, I feel it is important for them to win this on the grounds that tournaments and casts should be free to make without having to pay the producer royalties just for using their game. That is, if it is really true that the KeSPA is not making any profits of it. If they do, it's a whole different scenario. Well, I will see how things go, I'm definitely very interested in how it will turn out.
On October 29 2010 16:59 snpnx wrote: Of course you can start your own leagues, but if there aren't any good players participating, it is of no use. And since all good players are bound to Kespa by contract, that is the case.
In an example relevant to your country: Bayern Munich can afford to buy all the best players, does that make them a monopoly in Football?
EPT
