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On October 27 2010 07:13 Seide wrote:
ATP has a monopoly on tennis worldwide, MLB has a monopoly on pro baseball in USA, MBA has monopoly on pro basketball in the USA, NHL has a monopoly on pro hockey in USA/Canada, NFL has a monopoly on football in the USA, FIFA has a monopoly on soccer worldwide.
Every sport needs its governing body. Also every succesfull sport has a government body. You dont want 2 competing organizations for a sport, as it raises question about which one is the most legitimate and prestigious, as one will always be favored, unless they work together.
This is true. For example, in MMA I only watch UFC. One governing body is not necessarily a bad thing like it is in economics. If you look at boxing and all it's organisations, it's almost a joke.
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On October 27 2010 07:16 toadstool wrote:
In economics, a monopoly (from Greek monos / μονος (alone or single) + polein / πωλειν (to sell)) exists when a specific individual or an enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it.
OK, since we're getting really precise now, I'd like to point out that based on all the posts of blizzard supporters they accuse KeSPA of being a coercive monopoly:
"In economics and business ethics, a coercive monopoly is a business concern that prohibits competitors from entering the field, with the natural result being that the firm is able to make pricing and production decisions independent of competitive forces. A coercive monopoly is not merely a sole supplier of a particular kind of good or service (a monopoly), but it is a monopoly where there is no opportunity to compete through means such as price competition, technological or product innovation, or marketing; entry into the field is closed. As a coercive monopoly is securely shielded from possibility of competition, it is able to make pricing and production decisions with the assurance that no competition will arise. It is a case of a non-contestable market."
The bolded parts are what KeSPA is so often accused of in recent discussions. Those are certainly not true.
What KeSPA could be better described as is an efficiency monopoly:
"Contrastingly, for a non-coercive monopoly to be maintained, the monopolist must make pricing and production decisions knowing that if prices are too high or quality is too low competition may arise from another firm that can better serve the market. If it is successful, it is called an efficiency monopoly, because it has been able to keep production and supply costs lower than any other possible competitor so that it can charge a lower price than others and still be profitable. Since potential competitors are not able to be so efficient at producing, they are not able to charge a lower, or comparable, price and still be profitable. Hence, competing is possible but doing so is not profitable; whereas, for a coercive monopoly, competition is neither profitable nor possible."
In other words, survival of the fittest - KeSPA is the best esports organization on the (Korean) market. It's simply more beneficial for the aspiring investors to join them than to try to compete with them, but it's still possible.
KESPA is a monopoly, it has no competitors in the Starcraft market in Korea. Tell me which other company runs 2 channels of Starcraft.
Technically, that's true. But in reality, the reason why they're a "monopoly" is because they fully saturate the niche market that esports is and are better than any potential competition. They have become a "monopoly" through natural selection, so to speak.
I'd also question KeSPA's being a monopoly due to the fact that the two broadcasting channels are not owned by KeSPA as an organization, but rather by specific members of KeSPA. Those companies (OGN and MBCGame, or rather OnMedia and MBC the network, however they call themselves) compete with each other.
To sum up, just because KeSPA doesn't face any worthy competition does not make them evil or hinder the esports scene. KeSPA as a whole never tried to actually strengthen/defend their monopolistic position - only certain members within KeSPA did, and at that time (gomtv starleague before blizzard got involved) the BW esports market in Korea was actually an oligopoly (OGN, MBC and GomTV) (before that there used to be other broadcasters too, google GhemTV e.g.).
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Blizzard's the man WOO!!!!
Down with Kespa!
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On October 27 2010 08:15 dazer wrote:
Blizzard's the man WOO!!!!
Down with Kespa!
lol
i just want the starleagues to keep going...
remember when we thought they might shutdown the leagues toward the end of last year? remember when we thought these new leagues wouldn't start up? I hope this trend continues haha
EDIT: Post #100 woohoo!
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Apparently some of us are more concerned about the future of BW in e-sports rather than satisfying our short term entertainment as fast as possible.
Sure our BW coverage is on its way but in the long run, it may be the end of it. I rather have to wait a little longer to confirm a BW scene for the future. The looks of it, its not going to happen when the IP lawsuit happens.
The foreign community could care less what happens between KeSPA or gretech, as long as they get their BW am I right? It doesn't matter if its illegal or legal sadly. I'm beginning to suspect this is the reason why Koreans and foreigners have different views on the situation.
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On October 27 2010 07:13 Seide wrote:
ATP has a monopoly on pro tennis worldwide, MLB has a monopoly on pro baseball in USA, MBA has monopoly on pro basketball in the USA, NHL has a monopoly on pro hockey in USA/Canada, NFL has a monopoly on football in the USA, FIFA has a monopoly on soccer worldwide. Do I need to continue?
Every sport needs its governing body. Also every succesfull sport has a government body. You dont want 2 competing organizations for a sport, as it raises question about which one is the most legitimate and prestigious, as one will always be favored, unless they work together.
Kespa rose up and built itself up to become the governing body of SC1 in Korea. They put in the work to make SC1 what it is in Korea today. No matter their behaviours in the past and the future that fact must be respected. Sure if there wasnt Kespa there is a possibility it could of been someone else, but nevertheless Kespa is there.
Like what Seide said. Every successful sport in NA has a governing body, it is needed or you get shit like WWE and TNA.
Complaining that Kespa doesn't care to expand outside Korea is like complaining how NBA doesn't host games in Korea for a few die hard fans. It's stupid.
You idiots just need to find anything about Kespa and complain about it, Kespa is the pro teams, they are the sponsors of the 10 teams in PL. They have run BW E-Sports well in Korea and that is their purpose, they don't need to let players play a shitty game with the same name because Kespa pays players to play BW not StarCrap 2.
Kespa's competence to run E-Sports? Check.
Blizzard's competence to run E-Sports? HELL NO.
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United States238 Posts
On October 27 2010 08:45 zenMaster wrote:
Like what Seide said. Every successful sport in NA has a governing body, it is needed or you get shit like WWE and TNA.
Complaining that Kespa doesn't care to expand outside Korea is like complaining how NBA doesn't host games in Korea for a few die hard fans. It's stupid.
You idiots just need to find anything about Kespa and complain about it, Kespa is the pro teams, they are the sponsors of the 10 teams in PL. They have run BW E-Sports well in Korea and that is their purpose, they don't need to let players play a shitty game with the same name because Kespa pays players to play BW not StarCrap 2.
Kespa's competence to run E-Sports? Check.
Blizzard's competence to run E-Sports? HELL NO.
They will now argue this:
All the listed governing bodies are not made up of, nor led by, people from a big major chaebol-level corporations.
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On October 27 2010 10:52 Selith wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 08:45 zenMaster wrote:
Like what Seide said. Every successful sport in NA has a governing body, it is needed or you get shit like WWE and TNA.
Complaining that Kespa doesn't care to expand outside Korea is like complaining how NBA doesn't host games in Korea for a few die hard fans. It's stupid.
You idiots just need to find anything about Kespa and complain about it, Kespa is the pro teams, they are the sponsors of the 10 teams in PL. They have run BW E-Sports well in Korea and that is their purpose, they don't need to let players play a shitty game with the same name because Kespa pays players to play BW not StarCrap 2.
Kespa's competence to run E-Sports? Check.
Blizzard's competence to run E-Sports? HELL NO. They will now argue this: All the listed governing bodies are not made up of, nor led by, people from a big major chaebol-level corporations.
Other than the fact that every team in the NBA is owned by some absurdly rich person, or at least rich enough to buy their own team. I don't know about other sports in the US, since I don't follow them, but I'd imagine that they're all sponsored by some company or another and definitely not a non-profit organization.
Edit: NBA is not a non-profit organization either after some research. It is an association made up of the aforementioned teams, which means the owners of the teams can band together and basically dictate what the NBA does.
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On October 27 2010 08:33 Lokian wrote:
Apparently some of us are more concerned about the future of BW in e-sports rather than satisfying our short term entertainment as fast as possible.
Sure our BW coverage is on its way but in the long run, it may be the end of it. I rather have to wait a little longer to confirm a BW scene for the future. The looks of it, its not going to happen when the IP lawsuit happens.
The foreign community could care less what happens between KeSPA or gretech, as long as they get their BW am I right? It doesn't matter if its illegal or legal sadly. I'm beginning to suspect this is the reason why Koreans and foreigners have different views on the situation.
Wait ..
I don't know where that come from, but are you implying to say that KeSPA is illegally broadcasting SC?
From what I've read they do have the broadcasting right, at least up to the last proleague before the current one. The issue however is IP which is still pretty much in black and white area. To some extent, I do agree that Blizzard need to be paid for some kind of royalty or fee, which from what I've read KeSPA also agreed to pay. The big concern for me is, this Gretech/Blizzard is trying to get a hold of the esports scene, by demanding further authority and huge sum of money (like 50% from sponsorships), that IMHO is ridiculous.
And for me it's not only about BW, but e-sports in general. What I'm afraid is, if Blizzard won the lawsuit, then it will be a bad precedence in the future for any e-sport bodies. In my point of view, it will be much less appealing to try to run e-sports scene if they virtually have no control and much less profit over it (50% to developer?), that is to say the least.
It should be legal I agree, but in what definition?
I do care about KesPA however, since virtually every player, coach and other staff in the scene is pretty much depend on KeSPA for their life. KeSPA like other governing body is not perfect, who said that FIFA, EFA, NFL etc is a perfect bodies? But it's needed, period.
The best solution I think is for the developer to release the business version of the games, like MS Office Enterprise or something like that. The price could be higher, or lower (for promotion purpose), with extra features. It could be also have an annual subscription fee or something like that. Any pro-scene, and anybody who's making a profit from the game, they must get this business version and not the personal one. Starcraft II Professional Edition with LAN features and built in tournament/league features sounds great :D
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I hope that for the future of all eSports, not just Brood War, that Blizzard loses this case. Seriously, I don't want future games that may have promising eSports scenes to totally fail just because their developer doesn't want the scene to exist or wants to get rid of the scene when they make a sequel.
Furthermore, does anyone else think that Blizzard is fucking stupid to suit a South Korean company in South Korean courts?
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TBH I'd love to see the reaction from this forum if Blizzard wins, and simply imposes a fee, logo and requirement to run things by them first, allowing the continuation of the Proleague, MSL and OSL freely after that.
Not sayin this will happen, it very well could but I'm no fortune teller. I'd absolutely get a kick out of reading the responses to that situation though.
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On October 27 2010 12:32 xBillehx wrote:
TBH I'd love to see the reaction from this forum if Blizzard wins, and simply imposes a fee, logo and requirement to run things by them first, allowing the continuation of the Proleague, MSL and OSL freely after that.
Not sayin this will happen, it very well could but I'm no fortune teller. I'd absolutely get a kick out of reading the responses to that situation though.
I wish that was the case, but if they really only wanted those things then they wouldn't come up with ridiculous demands in the first place.
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On October 27 2010 07:11 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 06:49 palexhur wrote:On October 27 2010 06:38 AyJay wrote:On October 27 2010 06:18 mustaju wrote:On October 27 2010 06:13 AyJay wrote:On October 27 2010 04:36 zenMaster wrote:On October 27 2010 04:15 AyJay wrote:On October 27 2010 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:On October 26 2010 22:07 Chriamon wrote:On October 26 2010 09:56 infinity2k9 wrote:
[quote]
[...]
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing.
[...] You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract. Seriously, what the heck are you talking about? There's a new draft every couple months or so. Nothing stops other companies from recruiting them or even bringing some of the best Chinese players or something. Theoretically, some other sponsors could create their own teams and new broadcaster a new league. It's just that it's more beneficial for new investors to join KeSPA instead of creating the whole new infrastructure from ground up. KeSPA is not a monopoly. They're just good competition because they have the know-how and they have an established infrastructure. KeSPA is monopoly. They will pull their players out of the tournament if that tournament doesn't support KeSPA or has players who aren't KeSPA players hence there are no competitions with this company. Which is why E-Sports has survived in Korea and nowhere else in the world. Governing body = live E-Sports No governing body = dead E-Sports Got it? Now STFU. Please elaborate why you think so. Having monopoly anywhere is bad. E-sports didn't survived in Korea because of KeSPA, so I don't quite understand you. Quoting gillyruless from a similar thread: FIFA might not tell every football club what they have to do but all football leagues have governing bodies like KESPA. You are from Germany so I assume you have heard of DFL's Der Vorstand des Ligaverbandes and Der Aufsichtsrat der DFL. What do you think that they do? All of Bundesliga teams and players are bound by the rules set by the DFL. They cannot go and play any team they want to play whenever they feel like it. If you know differently, tell me how that's different from what KESPA has been doing.
KESPA (and in turn the teams that make up KESPA) and the players have entered into a contract that requires a certain degree of financial consideration and required pefformances. Any player who wish not to be goverened by the requirements in the contract is free to not enter into it just like NAda and Boxer have done. They just won't get paid a regular salary any more. If anyone feel this is not fair, I have to ask whether they evr had a regular job. When you are paid to work for someone else, you are always required to follow the directions of the entity that pays you within, of course, the bouds of the labor laws. I personally do not see anything sinister or irregular about what KESPA has done. Do you think if somebody sets up a new football league in Germany in direct competition of Bundesliga, Bundesliga will allow the teams and the players to play in the new league while they are getting paid by the teams that belong to Bundesliga? Did that help? Yeah it did and it would had helped if you would have posted it on your previous post. Here's my view: 1) I don't see any problems with KeSPA as an organization 2) I DO NOT like what some actions KeSPA had been doing (trying to control e-sports, establish monopoly, questionable rules for players, whole broadcasting rights issue and so on). 3) Salaries for players are paid by sponsors so organizations EG, teamliquid, oGs, TSL can pay their players therefore there is no need for organization like KeSPA for them. 4) BW didn't caught on outside of Korea for different reasons than in Korea. Also remember the guy who helped BW get big - Boxer, not KeSPA. Your third point just stated that salaries are paid by sponsors and in BW, Sponsors+ another infrastructure =Kespa so how come you dont need Kespa?, what is the logic of that statement?, and if I am paying a guy US200k a year and giving him a house to live, food and other commodities for me it is a MUST BE that this guy has a contract and follows it. Btw are you comparing EG,TL, oGs to the pro teams in BW??? they are not even close. You're assuming that the sponsors don't exist outside of KeSPA, but they do. The sponors have a little group they get together for mutual things called KeSPA, yes, but the players salaries come from the sponsors, not the KeSPA organization itself. They aren't a single entity so theoretically, sponsor's like MBC, CJ, Hwaseung, SK Telecom, etc etc.... can still sponsor teams without the entity currently known as KeSPA. They'd get the same recognition, just no control over the leagues outside their own team and that's sorta the entire reason KeSPA is anti-Blizzard.
Of course they want control and that is why Kespa exists (Blizzard is fighting to get that control so they can replace the RTS e-sports game whenever they want which means outstanding sellings), you are telling me that a group of big sponsors that invest millions of dollars in a niche market should have not control over what they invest, get real, if you put the money you want to have control, business dont go in other way at least not in earth. I dont blame Blizzard for trying to control the scene, at the end it is just a company which wants maximize profits for its shareholders, but I dont have any stock in Blizzard, I am a fan of BW pro scene and that is being succesfully running by Kespa, you cant say the same from Blizzard.
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On October 27 2010 12:48 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 07:11 xBillehx wrote:On October 27 2010 06:49 palexhur wrote:On October 27 2010 06:38 AyJay wrote:On October 27 2010 06:18 mustaju wrote:On October 27 2010 06:13 AyJay wrote:On October 27 2010 04:36 zenMaster wrote:On October 27 2010 04:15 AyJay wrote:On October 27 2010 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:On October 26 2010 22:07 Chriamon wrote:
[quote]
You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract. Seriously, what the heck are you talking about? There's a new draft every couple months or so. Nothing stops other companies from recruiting them or even bringing some of the best Chinese players or something. Theoretically, some other sponsors could create their own teams and new broadcaster a new league. It's just that it's more beneficial for new investors to join KeSPA instead of creating the whole new infrastructure from ground up. KeSPA is not a monopoly. They're just good competition because they have the know-how and they have an established infrastructure. KeSPA is monopoly. They will pull their players out of the tournament if that tournament doesn't support KeSPA or has players who aren't KeSPA players hence there are no competitions with this company. Which is why E-Sports has survived in Korea and nowhere else in the world. Governing body = live E-Sports No governing body = dead E-Sports Got it? Now STFU. Please elaborate why you think so. Having monopoly anywhere is bad. E-sports didn't survived in Korea because of KeSPA, so I don't quite understand you. Quoting gillyruless from a similar thread: FIFA might not tell every football club what they have to do but all football leagues have governing bodies like KESPA. You are from Germany so I assume you have heard of DFL's Der Vorstand des Ligaverbandes and Der Aufsichtsrat der DFL. What do you think that they do? All of Bundesliga teams and players are bound by the rules set by the DFL. They cannot go and play any team they want to play whenever they feel like it. If you know differently, tell me how that's different from what KESPA has been doing.
KESPA (and in turn the teams that make up KESPA) and the players have entered into a contract that requires a certain degree of financial consideration and required pefformances. Any player who wish not to be goverened by the requirements in the contract is free to not enter into it just like NAda and Boxer have done. They just won't get paid a regular salary any more. If anyone feel this is not fair, I have to ask whether they evr had a regular job. When you are paid to work for someone else, you are always required to follow the directions of the entity that pays you within, of course, the bouds of the labor laws. I personally do not see anything sinister or irregular about what KESPA has done. Do you think if somebody sets up a new football league in Germany in direct competition of Bundesliga, Bundesliga will allow the teams and the players to play in the new league while they are getting paid by the teams that belong to Bundesliga? Did that help? Yeah it did and it would had helped if you would have posted it on your previous post. Here's my view: 1) I don't see any problems with KeSPA as an organization 2) I DO NOT like what some actions KeSPA had been doing (trying to control e-sports, establish monopoly, questionable rules for players, whole broadcasting rights issue and so on). 3) Salaries for players are paid by sponsors so organizations EG, teamliquid, oGs, TSL can pay their players therefore there is no need for organization like KeSPA for them. 4) BW didn't caught on outside of Korea for different reasons than in Korea. Also remember the guy who helped BW get big - Boxer, not KeSPA. Your third point just stated that salaries are paid by sponsors and in BW, Sponsors+ another infrastructure =Kespa so how come you dont need Kespa?, what is the logic of that statement?, and if I am paying a guy US200k a year and giving him a house to live, food and other commodities for me it is a MUST BE that this guy has a contract and follows it. Btw are you comparing EG,TL, oGs to the pro teams in BW??? they are not even close. You're assuming that the sponsors don't exist outside of KeSPA, but they do. The sponors have a little group they get together for mutual things called KeSPA, yes, but the players salaries come from the sponsors, not the KeSPA organization itself. They aren't a single entity so theoretically, sponsor's like MBC, CJ, Hwaseung, SK Telecom, etc etc.... can still sponsor teams without the entity currently known as KeSPA. They'd get the same recognition, just no control over the leagues outside their own team and that's sorta the entire reason KeSPA is anti-Blizzard. Of course they want control and that is why Kespa exists (Blizzard is fighting to get that control so they can replace the RTS e-sports game whenever they want which means outstanding sellings), you are telling me that a group of big sponsors that invest millions of dollars in a niche market should have not control over what they invest, get real, if you put the money you want to have control, business dont go in other way at least not in earth. I dont blame Blizzard for trying to control the scene, at the end it is just a company which wants maximize profits for its shareholders, but I dont have any stock in Blizzard, I am a fan of BW pro scene and that is being succesfully running by Kespa, you cant say the same from Blizzard.
Blizzard has never said that they want to control or run the BW scene in Korea or that they want to dismantle KeSPA. All that has been demanded is acknowledgment of Blizzard's IP rights. I would suspect, although I know as much as everyone else about the true situation (jack shit), that Blizzard would impose a nominal fee, permission requirements, and advertising for new Blizzard games, all while allowing BW to continue being broadcast.
True, this season's PL/MSL will likely be stopped short, but I suspect that broadcasting rights will be reinstated once KeSPA/MBC/OGN have actual motivation to finish negotiations.
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On October 27 2010 12:59 Whiladan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 12:48 palexhur wrote:On October 27 2010 07:11 xBillehx wrote:On October 27 2010 06:49 palexhur wrote:On October 27 2010 06:38 AyJay wrote:On October 27 2010 06:18 mustaju wrote:On October 27 2010 06:13 AyJay wrote:On October 27 2010 04:36 zenMaster wrote:On October 27 2010 04:15 AyJay wrote:On October 27 2010 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:
[quote]
Seriously, what the heck are you talking about? There's a new draft every couple months or so. Nothing stops other companies from recruiting them or even bringing some of the best Chinese players or something.
Theoretically, some other sponsors could create their own teams and new broadcaster a new league. It's just that it's more beneficial for new investors to join KeSPA instead of creating the whole new infrastructure from ground up.
KeSPA is not a monopoly. They're just good competition because they have the know-how and they have an established infrastructure. KeSPA is monopoly. They will pull their players out of the tournament if that tournament doesn't support KeSPA or has players who aren't KeSPA players hence there are no competitions with this company. Which is why E-Sports has survived in Korea and nowhere else in the world. Governing body = live E-Sports No governing body = dead E-Sports Got it? Now STFU. Please elaborate why you think so. Having monopoly anywhere is bad. E-sports didn't survived in Korea because of KeSPA, so I don't quite understand you. Quoting gillyruless from a similar thread: FIFA might not tell every football club what they have to do but all football leagues have governing bodies like KESPA. You are from Germany so I assume you have heard of DFL's Der Vorstand des Ligaverbandes and Der Aufsichtsrat der DFL. What do you think that they do? All of Bundesliga teams and players are bound by the rules set by the DFL. They cannot go and play any team they want to play whenever they feel like it. If you know differently, tell me how that's different from what KESPA has been doing.
KESPA (and in turn the teams that make up KESPA) and the players have entered into a contract that requires a certain degree of financial consideration and required pefformances. Any player who wish not to be goverened by the requirements in the contract is free to not enter into it just like NAda and Boxer have done. They just won't get paid a regular salary any more. If anyone feel this is not fair, I have to ask whether they evr had a regular job. When you are paid to work for someone else, you are always required to follow the directions of the entity that pays you within, of course, the bouds of the labor laws. I personally do not see anything sinister or irregular about what KESPA has done. Do you think if somebody sets up a new football league in Germany in direct competition of Bundesliga, Bundesliga will allow the teams and the players to play in the new league while they are getting paid by the teams that belong to Bundesliga? Did that help? Yeah it did and it would had helped if you would have posted it on your previous post. Here's my view: 1) I don't see any problems with KeSPA as an organization 2) I DO NOT like what some actions KeSPA had been doing (trying to control e-sports, establish monopoly, questionable rules for players, whole broadcasting rights issue and so on). 3) Salaries for players are paid by sponsors so organizations EG, teamliquid, oGs, TSL can pay their players therefore there is no need for organization like KeSPA for them. 4) BW didn't caught on outside of Korea for different reasons than in Korea. Also remember the guy who helped BW get big - Boxer, not KeSPA. Your third point just stated that salaries are paid by sponsors and in BW, Sponsors+ another infrastructure =Kespa so how come you dont need Kespa?, what is the logic of that statement?, and if I am paying a guy US200k a year and giving him a house to live, food and other commodities for me it is a MUST BE that this guy has a contract and follows it. Btw are you comparing EG,TL, oGs to the pro teams in BW??? they are not even close. You're assuming that the sponsors don't exist outside of KeSPA, but they do. The sponors have a little group they get together for mutual things called KeSPA, yes, but the players salaries come from the sponsors, not the KeSPA organization itself. They aren't a single entity so theoretically, sponsor's like MBC, CJ, Hwaseung, SK Telecom, etc etc.... can still sponsor teams without the entity currently known as KeSPA. They'd get the same recognition, just no control over the leagues outside their own team and that's sorta the entire reason KeSPA is anti-Blizzard. Of course they want control and that is why Kespa exists (Blizzard is fighting to get that control so they can replace the RTS e-sports game whenever they want which means outstanding sellings), you are telling me that a group of big sponsors that invest millions of dollars in a niche market should have not control over what they invest, get real, if you put the money you want to have control, business dont go in other way at least not in earth. I dont blame Blizzard for trying to control the scene, at the end it is just a company which wants maximize profits for its shareholders, but I dont have any stock in Blizzard, I am a fan of BW pro scene and that is being succesfully running by Kespa, you cant say the same from Blizzard. Blizzard has never said that they want to control or run the BW scene in Korea or that they want to dismantle KeSPA. All that has been demanded is acknowledgment of Blizzard's IP rights. I would suspect, although I know as much as everyone else about the true situation (jack shit), that Blizzard would impose a nominal fee, permission requirements, and advertising for new Blizzard games, all while allowing BW to continue being broadcast. True, this season's PL/MSL will likely be stopped short, but I suspect that broadcasting rights will be reinstated once KeSPA/MBC/OGN have actual motivation to finish negotiations.
Blizzard only concern here is to have control of the e-sports scene, and install SC2 as the prime game, they dont need to do anything about SC2 because they have total control over there, but they want to erode the BW scene so they got faster what they want, all Blizzard actions are looking this target, even when broadcasters agreed in paying a fee, Gretech asked for TV prime slots for GSL instead of PL, if that is not a rush attempt for a change in the e-sports scene then I dont know what it is, like I said before I dont blame Blizzard, I would do the same, they dont need even to control BW scene, they just need that SC2 replace BW as the top e-sport game and they are pushing hard in that direction, if as a result of this the BW scene die faster, well that is only collateral damage, that can be solved with some shitty words like the ones which Paul Sams said.
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On October 27 2010 12:32 xBillehx wrote:
TBH I'd love to see the reaction from this forum if Blizzard wins, and simply imposes a fee, logo and requirement to run things by them first, allowing the continuation of the Proleague, MSL and OSL freely after that.
Not sayin this will happen, it very well could but I'm no fortune teller. I'd absolutely get a kick out of reading the responses to that situation though.
Not only will that not happen but it's completely mind boggling to me to see that anyone who has been following this could ever even consider that much less put it on a forum. You're not the only one who feels this way about Blizzard, or who thinks that this is a possibility. If that's all they wanted to do then we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.
Please remember, this is the same Blizzard that as part of their crusade that is only for "IP rights" wanted to audit KeSPA and have control over MBCGame and OGN. This is the same Blizzard that in the name of "IP rights" decided that in 2007 they wanted to pursuit this path of having KeSPA renew their right to broadcast every year only after StarCraft 2 was announced. This is the same Blizzard that in the name of "IP rights" decided that if KeSPA, MBCGame, and OnGameNet were going to continue to air StarCraft Brood War they would simply suit them in an attempt to shut them down (unless you really believe they just want to have KeSPA pay money and slap a logo on their broadcasts).
KeSPA already said that if Blizzard simply wanted them to pay a fee, even yearly, they'd do that. KeSPA even offered to pay Gretech 3 million won per year. Gretech and Blizzard aren't after the small time money of KeSPA, they want the big time money of SC2 taking off in South Korea so that it'll sell well along with it's two expansions and possible endorsements in the future. Blizzard knows that if they can get SC2 to where Brood War was they'll have a cash cow that can last them over a decade, but first they need to shut down the Brood War scene.
Anyone who thinks this isn't about destroying the Brood War scene so that Blizzard can cash in on SC2 is either delusional or ignorant.
edit: Oh and by the way, just prepare for the day that Blizzard starts charging for the "pro maps" that eventually get made and played in things like the GSL.
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On October 27 2010 12:59 Whiladan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 12:48 palexhur wrote:On October 27 2010 07:11 xBillehx wrote:On October 27 2010 06:49 palexhur wrote:On October 27 2010 06:38 AyJay wrote:On October 27 2010 06:18 mustaju wrote:On October 27 2010 06:13 AyJay wrote:On October 27 2010 04:36 zenMaster wrote:On October 27 2010 04:15 AyJay wrote:On October 27 2010 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:
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Seriously, what the heck are you talking about? There's a new draft every couple months or so. Nothing stops other companies from recruiting them or even bringing some of the best Chinese players or something.
Theoretically, some other sponsors could create their own teams and new broadcaster a new league. It's just that it's more beneficial for new investors to join KeSPA instead of creating the whole new infrastructure from ground up.
KeSPA is not a monopoly. They're just good competition because they have the know-how and they have an established infrastructure. KeSPA is monopoly. They will pull their players out of the tournament if that tournament doesn't support KeSPA or has players who aren't KeSPA players hence there are no competitions with this company. Which is why E-Sports has survived in Korea and nowhere else in the world. Governing body = live E-Sports No governing body = dead E-Sports Got it? Now STFU. Please elaborate why you think so. Having monopoly anywhere is bad. E-sports didn't survived in Korea because of KeSPA, so I don't quite understand you. Quoting gillyruless from a similar thread: FIFA might not tell every football club what they have to do but all football leagues have governing bodies like KESPA. You are from Germany so I assume you have heard of DFL's Der Vorstand des Ligaverbandes and Der Aufsichtsrat der DFL. What do you think that they do? All of Bundesliga teams and players are bound by the rules set by the DFL. They cannot go and play any team they want to play whenever they feel like it. If you know differently, tell me how that's different from what KESPA has been doing.
KESPA (and in turn the teams that make up KESPA) and the players have entered into a contract that requires a certain degree of financial consideration and required pefformances. Any player who wish not to be goverened by the requirements in the contract is free to not enter into it just like NAda and Boxer have done. They just won't get paid a regular salary any more. If anyone feel this is not fair, I have to ask whether they evr had a regular job. When you are paid to work for someone else, you are always required to follow the directions of the entity that pays you within, of course, the bouds of the labor laws. I personally do not see anything sinister or irregular about what KESPA has done. Do you think if somebody sets up a new football league in Germany in direct competition of Bundesliga, Bundesliga will allow the teams and the players to play in the new league while they are getting paid by the teams that belong to Bundesliga? Did that help? Yeah it did and it would had helped if you would have posted it on your previous post. Here's my view: 1) I don't see any problems with KeSPA as an organization 2) I DO NOT like what some actions KeSPA had been doing (trying to control e-sports, establish monopoly, questionable rules for players, whole broadcasting rights issue and so on). 3) Salaries for players are paid by sponsors so organizations EG, teamliquid, oGs, TSL can pay their players therefore there is no need for organization like KeSPA for them. 4) BW didn't caught on outside of Korea for different reasons than in Korea. Also remember the guy who helped BW get big - Boxer, not KeSPA. Your third point just stated that salaries are paid by sponsors and in BW, Sponsors+ another infrastructure =Kespa so how come you dont need Kespa?, what is the logic of that statement?, and if I am paying a guy US200k a year and giving him a house to live, food and other commodities for me it is a MUST BE that this guy has a contract and follows it. Btw are you comparing EG,TL, oGs to the pro teams in BW??? they are not even close. You're assuming that the sponsors don't exist outside of KeSPA, but they do. The sponors have a little group they get together for mutual things called KeSPA, yes, but the players salaries come from the sponsors, not the KeSPA organization itself. They aren't a single entity so theoretically, sponsor's like MBC, CJ, Hwaseung, SK Telecom, etc etc.... can still sponsor teams without the entity currently known as KeSPA. They'd get the same recognition, just no control over the leagues outside their own team and that's sorta the entire reason KeSPA is anti-Blizzard. Of course they want control and that is why Kespa exists (Blizzard is fighting to get that control so they can replace the RTS e-sports game whenever they want which means outstanding sellings), you are telling me that a group of big sponsors that invest millions of dollars in a niche market should have not control over what they invest, get real, if you put the money you want to have control, business dont go in other way at least not in earth. I dont blame Blizzard for trying to control the scene, at the end it is just a company which wants maximize profits for its shareholders, but I dont have any stock in Blizzard, I am a fan of BW pro scene and that is being succesfully running by Kespa, you cant say the same from Blizzard. Blizzard has never said that they want to control or run the BW scene in Korea or that they want to dismantle KeSPA. All that has been demanded is acknowledgment of Blizzard's IP rights. I would suspect, although I know as much as everyone else about the true situation (jack shit), that Blizzard would impose a nominal fee, permission requirements, and advertising for new Blizzard games, all while allowing BW to continue being broadcast. True, this season's PL/MSL will likely be stopped short, but I suspect that broadcasting rights will be reinstated once KeSPA/MBC/OGN have actual motivation to finish negotiations.
Were you living under a rock past the last three years?
"1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year
2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan
3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement
4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos
5. Right to audit KeSPA
6. Additional contracts between blizzard and KeSPA progamers that override the contracts between the latter and KeSPA teams"
Those were blizzard's demands... If that is not demanding total control, then I don't know what is. T______T
And, of course, blizzard never said they want to run the BW scene, as in host the tournaments, etc. They simply want to profit from something others invest hundreds of millions of dollars without investing any money whatsoever themselves, and be able to do whatever they want (like deliberately damage BW to support their other product - sc2, which is what gretech attempted).
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Were you living under a rock past the last three years?
"1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year
2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan
3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement
4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos
5. Right to audit KeSPA
6. Additional contracts between blizzard and KeSPA progamers that override the contracts between the latter and KeSPA teams"
Those were blizzard's demands... If that is not demanding total control, then I don't know what is. T______T
And, of course, blizzard never said they want to run the BW scene, as in host the tournaments, etc. They simply want to profit from something others invest hundreds of millions of dollars without investing any money whatsoever themselves, and be able to do whatever they want (like deliberately damage BW to support their other product - sc2, which is what gretech attempted).
I kind of have to respond to this, mainly because the way these demands are being interpreted seems grossly misplaced. In order:
1) I honestly do not see how 1 year is unreasonable. Blizzard and KeSPA are two very different entities, and Blizzard would simply be unsure as to KeSPA operations and how KeSPA has been utilizing the Starcraft IP (the 'platform,' if you will). Transparency as to how KeSPA selects sponsors, how KeSPA attains funding for its activities, and how KeSPA as a whole operates is very limited, particularly because Blizzard is not a native Korean firm and has a limited grasp on the business culture and environment. Add to this the fact that the main short-term impetus for negotiations beginning in 2007 was the KeSPA broadcasting rights event. How is 1 year unreasonable from Blizzard's point of view?
I can see how it's unreasonable to KeSPA (hell, we've been doing this solely ourselves FOR YEARS), but overall, I don't see how it is unreasonable at all. Blizzard doesn't know KeSPA. Blizzard has some valuable IP (Starcraft franchise and the game itself) which is being used in a way it probably has neither predicted nor really fully understands. However, Blizzard recognizes that some sort of licensing time frame is appropriate. From my standpoint, a year (maybe 2) is perfectly legitimate going from the position that I simply do not know how they are operating.
Before I get jumped on for this, not even KeSPA supporters on this forum really know how KeSPA operates. We don't know their decision making process. We don't know how sponsors are decided. We don't even know why they decided to pull players out of GomTV a while back. We can make posits on motives, but fundamentally, the majority of both SC2 supports and Brood War diehards simply do not know how the company operates. Neither does Blizzard. From this standpoint, a year seems very legitimate to me; it'll give Blizzard time to really understand what and how KeSPA does with the Starcraft IP. It's short enough to be flexible, in case there is some sort of abuse or some sort of bad development, etc, but long enough to keep the BW tournament structure (one full year) stable without breaking it up.
Moving on.
2) This is a little extreme, but again, we are dealing with a 'non-profit' foreign company. For the sake of transparency, I'd say this 'demand' is not a demand, but a simple request. Sure, it is worded to set a precedent that Blizzard ultimately has the ability to decide what people do with its game (which, though debatable, seems to have reached a grudging consensus) but the spirit of the 'demand' (heavy sarcastic quotation marks) is for transparency.
Let's approach this from another angle. What CAN Blizzard REALLY DO with this 'demand' (heavy sarcastic quotation marks) in place, if the deal goes through? Is Blizzard going to veto a sponsor for pumping in tons of money? Are they going to say 'hey, we don't want to pay players anymore; too expensive?' Are they going to say 'we're closing the leagues, omg?' As far as I can tell, this 'control' issue just boils down to a mistrust that Blizzard wants to actively shut down the BW progaming scene. If we take it from the assumption that Blizzard doesn't wish to shut down BW, I don't see how this 'demand' (sarcastic quotation marks) will really change the status quo at all.
Of course, we can't really 'know' whether Blizzard wants to or does not want to shut down the BW scene. However, that being said, this 'demand' is 50/50 in regards to BW's longevity. Qualitatively, there is no reason to transmit bias and somehow warp it into 'womg Blizz wants to control IT ALL.' That is simply under the assumption that Blizzard would want to exercise the power to make a drastic change to the BW scene, and thus, demonstrates an emotional response from many forumers rather than rational thinking.
3). So Blizz wants a licensing fee. Wow. That's so out there, and such an outrageous demand. I can't imagine this occurring ANYWHERE else; it's not like companies ever have to buy licenses for the use of specific products. Oh wait ...
Pointedly, without hard numbers, there is no way to judge. Additionally, eSports despite sharing commonalities with existing industries, is a new industry. There are no precendents set for this sort of thing. To an objective observer, a licensing fee is neither outrageous nor a 'demand;' even with seemingly 'outrageous' figures, there are no proceeding comparative situations. Who's to say?
My point is that 'demand' 3 is not supportive of 'Blizzard womg kill BW now cry.'
4) Don't see what's so wrong with this either. 100% ownership is a little meh, but even WoW players don't own any percentage of their character (It's in the EULA). I'm almost certain that this could have been negotiated somehow, or dealt with in a more constructive manner. Yes, it is a bit extreme, but it in no way shape or form somehow details a 'power hungry corporate entity.'
Take for example, a remix of the original song that is released to make a profit. Does the remixer have to obtain a license from the original artist? Most likely, yes. Even if we treat KeSPA's broadcasted games as derivative works, it's much the same situation. KeSPA and KeSPA supporters might disagree, but this sort of 'demand' (heavy sarcastic quotation marks) is in no way out of line or even unreasonable. Heavy handed? Sure. Unreasonable? Not really.
(In my opinion, KeSPA really messed this point up. They should have agreed to 100% ownership of all material and consolidated IP (I dunno, file patents, whatever) on the actual infrastructure and technology involved in that infrastructure to broadcast the games. That would allow them to maintain essentially 'buyer power' over Blizzard, as well as expand potentially in the future. Big wasted opportunity, but I'm not surprised either. )
5) Right to audit is justified by seeking transparency. I do not see how this is unreasonable. It happens in M&As all the time, and also for licensing deals for R&D involving milestone payments. It probably occurs a lot more than just in those situations too.
6) This is really the only claim that seems a bit iffy; however, the intent doesn't seem to be very insidious. I don't have much to say on it, only that it would allow Blizzard to direct the actions of BW pros (such as play in this, go here, etc), but without really understanding what sort of contracts Blizzard would be offering the players, I can't comment further. On the surface, this does seem a bit suspect; however, given how deeply in depends on the nature of a Blizzard-progamer contract (which I bet no one really knows anything about), it is definitely short-sighted to just claim this as a power grab.
I think BW supporters are simply acting irrational over this entire issue. Granted, it is understandable; however, when logic comes into play, irrationality needs to go away. A lot of quibbles from both sides (the whole 'BW will detract from SC2' thing makes NO sense to me whatsoever; what indication can you have that BW will detract from sales? I bet you can't even find a solid quantitative comparable example in D2 vs Diablo!) display more emotional responses than actual rational logic.
I had to respond to this point because, as far as 'demands' go, these seemed fairly reasonable just by inspection, given Blizzard's severe lack of knowledge as to KeSPA's activities. It is only insidious if you read these terms with a preconceived ideal that Blizzard seeks to take over; otherwise, it doesn't seem like a real, sustainable power grab (haha, sure, cause Blizz will develop KeSPA capabilities and forward integrate IN ONE YEAR, ok). This suggests that emotional bias runs rampant, and it creates an uncomfortable environment for everyone.
As for me, I think KeSPA was a bit short sighted, and Blizzard is playing hard ball a bit too much. However, I do not think Blizzard's actions are unreasonable. KeSPA, on the other hand, had a great opportunity during negotiations to really assure Blizzard of their intentions and blew it because of their ego. Now, we have a big mess on our hands. I can't venture to guess the outcome, but looking back, I see no indication of Blizzard's behavior being representative of a take over of the industry at all.
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What seems "a bit hard ball" for you in the world of business means high degree of risk for potential sponsors and pro team owners, decreasing the utility they perceive in taking part of the e-sports scene. The precondition of economic activity is established property rights, and blizzard wants to at least remove those to a high degree, if not completely.
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s3raph obviously don't know what hes talking about.
i've done translations on sub licensing agreements and i have to say blizzard's demand is too much.
personally i no longer support SC2 because i despise the direction that blizz is taking. the game isnt fun anymore. its too much about greed with too little creativity.
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