On September 14 2010 02:40 Holgerius wrote: Lol, it's not an insult to say that someone will not be able to do something like that. I guess there is a small theoretical chance that another player could potentially accomplish what Flash has done in 2010, but come on; be realistic. It won't happen. I'm willing to bet money on it.
The gap between Flash and JD is pretty big. Look at the big picture here; 9-3 = 75 % winrate for Flash vs JD in the last 3 Starleague finals. That's a pretty dominating winrate yo.
Yes it is. There is always a chance that someone can push the envelope and come up with something that really does work with that high a %. Once again, these progamers all have an understanding of the game far deeper than we do, and I'm sure that the higher you climb, the more refined the details of their gameplay based on that understanding. Again, NOBODY is debating that FlaSh had the most amazing season to happen to date. That does not, however, indicate that a turn-around isn't a possibility. Don't ever close your mind to possibilities or you've already lost something, my friend :/
Not sure how being realistic is insulting in general.
Out of curiosity, what changed in the last year that made Flash start dominating as much as he has been? I mean, he's always been a fantastic player, and has been a clear #1 at other times, just never quite to this degree. What made him go from ~50 - 50 with Jaedong coming into 2009, to a ~70 - 30 record against him since the NATE MSL?
What can I even really say about Flash...he's been the leader of Terran for years now, where would Terran be as a race without him?
His first OSL win in Bacchus (and the GSL), he revolutionized TvP and made Protoss players sweat buckets about going carriers.
During the reign of the six dragons, he was, for the most part, the only Terran who held his ground against the onslaught of Protoss masters. He held the line for the rest of the Terran race to revitalize itself.
Then Swarm Season hit, and ZvZ finals made the BW scene despair. It was Flash who Terrans rallied around and fought back with, using an aggressively fine-tuned bio push strategy that would have Zergs shitting their pants.
Look at the recent MSL/OSL winners these past two years without Flash: 6 Zerg, 2 Protoss, 0 Terran. What shape would Terran be in without him? It's just just subtracting his wins from the overall stats, you'd also have to take away all the innovations he made and other Terran players copied and adapted. Protoss and Zerg players must, deep inside somewhere, curse the day he was born.
Flash is just that kind of player. If he ever switches to SC2, it doesn't matter if he plays Zerg, Protoss, or Terran. The race he plays will be called the 'OP race' within a year, because of how much he'll contribute to the race's metagame. He's a goddamn genius.
On September 12 2010 19:08 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: On a serious note, Flash is the best player of all time, but he has not done as many amazing things as some of the players before him. I wouldn't rank him the greatest player of all time, he's simply not old-school enough, but he's definetly the best I've ever seen. I honestly think Jaedong has done him some favours in recent tournies though, by beating some of the people who have a shot at flash. Flash has likewise helped Jaedong. I hated Boxer when he was in his prime, but he did some of the most amazing things ever done in starcraft. I'll never forget his game against Didi at WCG when he was at 60 supply against I forgot if it was 150 or 200 and still pulled off the win. That was amazing. Nal_Ra inventing hidden proxy DT, Proxy Robo's and scout openings. That was amazing. Flash is amazing too but there's so much innovation that's gone before him.
Sure, he is good... but like in all other "b" crap threads, people seem to forget in what era of BW flash is dominating. So, lets check what was going on in his "domination" era: If i recall, in bw its P>T>Z>P (not much... but still, i believe people think thats true) era of jaedong domination strong players: effort, stork, bisu, flash, jangbi, fantasy, even leta was on a roll back then... and im sure there are more, but those people were almost unbeatable unless they played each other! so he had to be good vs all 3 races, even T that > Z and in zvz (least forgiving matchup) Flash now has... 0 protoss to care about (stork is there, but not that much, he is going on and off all the time)... and every good player except jaedong is slumping atm (even effort before he somehow got to win that title against flash was mediocre at best and losing to everyone and everything)... so... flash has only 1 really good player to worry about, and its TvZ on TvZ favored maps in recent tournaments... and somehow because he is dominating the "low" of bw, he is somehow more deserving to be called best atm, best ever, and other b-word than people who dominated during the time when like 10 other players were peaking, and not slumping...
Im sorry, but flash is nowhere near the "best of all time" in my eyes... and he is nowhere near as deserving to be called b-word as jaedong... let alone to be put in same sentance as nada or boxer
if somehow bisu, stork, jangbi (pvt monster) and others somehow rejuvinate and start playing like back then, and flash still dominates... then all hail the king... but as it is, naaah
On September 14 2010 07:32 Mumei wrote: Out of curiosity, what changed in the last year that made Flash start dominating as much as he has been? I mean, he's always been a fantastic player, and has been a clear #1 at other times, just never quite to this degree. What made him go from ~50 - 50 with Jaedong coming into 2009, to a ~70 - 30 record against him since the NATE MSL?
everyone but jaedong started slumping (and considering P>T... he had easy way with mostly tvt and tvz, with some tvp against one hit P like stats, violet etc), and he stopped 14cc so kwanro didnt destroy him and jaedong seems to become more nervous when playing flash... kinda like flash was when playing jaedong
On September 14 2010 07:32 Mumei wrote: Out of curiosity, what changed in the last year that made Flash start dominating as much as he has been? I mean, he's always been a fantastic player, and has been a clear #1 at other times, just never quite to this degree. What made him go from ~50 - 50 with Jaedong coming into 2009, to a ~70 - 30 record against him since the NATE MSL?
i would say a combination of maps (although not nearly AS big as the other reason) and flash rediscovering his mental edge over jaedong. back in early 08 flash was able to beat JD a lot by being way ahead in the mind games (if you look at most of their games, very few were actually really long drawn-out games, with flash winning with almost pure strategy most of the time). Then flash burned out that summer and JD was able to show his true mental strength and 3-0d flash in the 1st GOM classic. Flash got really good again a year later but was never really ahead in mental games until after he lost to Effort I guess. the triple 14CC in the HDSMSL was just fucking genius (with him knowing that JD would also be trying to play eco-hungry). Ever since that trouncing flash has just been able to stay 1 step ahead of JD in every series since (except WCG korea i guess lol).
On September 12 2010 19:08 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: On a serious note, Flash is the best player of all time, but he has not done as many amazing things as some of the players before him. I wouldn't rank him the greatest player of all time, he's simply not old-school enough, but he's definetly the best I've ever seen. I honestly think Jaedong has done him some favours in recent tournies though, by beating some of the people who have a shot at flash. Flash has likewise helped Jaedong. I hated Boxer when he was in his prime, but he did some of the most amazing things ever done in starcraft. I'll never forget his game against Didi at WCG when he was at 60 supply against I forgot if it was 150 or 200 and still pulled off the win. That was amazing. Nal_Ra inventing hidden proxy DT, Proxy Robo's and scout openings. That was amazing. Flash is amazing too but there's so much innovation that's gone before him.
Sure, he is good... but like in all other "b" crap threads, people seem to forget in what era of BW flash is dominating. So, lets check what was going on in his "domination" era: If i recall, in bw its P>T>Z>P (not much... but still, i believe people think thats true) era of jaedong domination strong players: effort, stork, bisu, flash, jangbi, fantasy, even leta was on a roll back then... and im sure there are more, but those people were almost unbeatable unless they played each other! so he had to be good vs all 3 races, even T that > Z and in zvz (least forgiving matchup) Flash now has... 0 protoss to care about (stork is there, but not that much, he is going on and off all the time)... and every good player except jaedong is slumping atm (even effort before he somehow got to win that title against flash was mediocre at best and losing to everyone and everything)... so... flash has only 1 really good player to worry about, and its TvZ on TvZ favored maps in recent tournaments... and somehow because he is dominating the "low" of bw, he is somehow more deserving to be called best atm, best ever, and other b-word than people who dominated during the time when like 10 other players were peaking, and not slumping...
Im sorry, but flash is nowhere near the "best of all time" in my eyes... and he is nowhere near as deserving to be called b-word as jaedong... let alone to be put in same sentance as nada or boxer
if somehow bisu, stork, jangbi (pvt monster) and others somehow rejuvinate and start playing like back then, and flash still dominates... then all hail the king... but as it is, naaah
On September 14 2010 07:32 Mumei wrote: Out of curiosity, what changed in the last year that made Flash start dominating as much as he has been? I mean, he's always been a fantastic player, and has been a clear #1 at other times, just never quite to this degree. What made him go from ~50 - 50 with Jaedong coming into 2009, to a ~70 - 30 record against him since the NATE MSL?
everyone but jaedong started slumping (and considering P>T... he had easy way with mostly tvt and tvz, with some tvp against one hit P like stats, violet etc), and he stopped 14cc so kwanro didnt destroy him and jaedong seems to become more nervous when playing flash... kinda like flash was when playing jaedong
Flash is still so young. One year ago flash was good, very good indeed. But this year he took another step and is just ahead of everyone now. It's not about someone slumping, or jaedong getting worse (more nervous against flash), flash just got even better this year. That's all.
also let's reverse your argument. You say flash is not goat or b-word or anything because he only has to fight of jaedong. well, let's say it this way, flash dominates even tho he has to face one player, who alot of people would have called goat without flash, almost every time.
On September 12 2010 19:08 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: On a serious note, Flash is the best player of all time, but he has not done as many amazing things as some of the players before him. I wouldn't rank him the greatest player of all time, he's simply not old-school enough, but he's definetly the best I've ever seen. I honestly think Jaedong has done him some favours in recent tournies though, by beating some of the people who have a shot at flash. Flash has likewise helped Jaedong. I hated Boxer when he was in his prime, but he did some of the most amazing things ever done in starcraft. I'll never forget his game against Didi at WCG when he was at 60 supply against I forgot if it was 150 or 200 and still pulled off the win. That was amazing. Nal_Ra inventing hidden proxy DT, Proxy Robo's and scout openings. That was amazing. Flash is amazing too but there's so much innovation that's gone before him.
Sure, he is good... but like in all other "b" crap threads, people seem to forget in what era of BW flash is dominating. So, lets check what was going on in his "domination" era: If i recall, in bw its P>T>Z>P (not much... but still, i believe people think thats true) era of jaedong domination strong players: effort, stork, bisu, flash, jangbi, fantasy, even leta was on a roll back then... and im sure there are more, but those people were almost unbeatable unless they played each other! so he had to be good vs all 3 races, even T that > Z and in zvz (least forgiving matchup) Flash now has... 0 protoss to care about (stork is there, but not that much, he is going on and off all the time)... and every good player except jaedong is slumping atm (even effort before he somehow got to win that title against flash was mediocre at best and losing to everyone and everything)... so... flash has only 1 really good player to worry about, and its TvZ on TvZ favored maps in recent tournaments... and somehow because he is dominating the "low" of bw, he is somehow more deserving to be called best atm, best ever, and other b-word than people who dominated during the time when like 10 other players were peaking, and not slumping...
Im sorry, but flash is nowhere near the "best of all time" in my eyes... and he is nowhere near as deserving to be called b-word as jaedong... let alone to be put in same sentance as nada or boxer
if somehow bisu, stork, jangbi (pvt monster) and others somehow rejuvinate and start playing like back then, and flash still dominates... then all hail the king... but as it is, naaah
On September 14 2010 07:32 Mumei wrote: Out of curiosity, what changed in the last year that made Flash start dominating as much as he has been? I mean, he's always been a fantastic player, and has been a clear #1 at other times, just never quite to this degree. What made him go from ~50 - 50 with Jaedong coming into 2009, to a ~70 - 30 record against him since the NATE MSL?
everyone but jaedong started slumping (and considering P>T... he had easy way with mostly tvt and tvz, with some tvp against one hit P like stats, violet etc), and he stopped 14cc so kwanro didnt destroy him and jaedong seems to become more nervous when playing flash... kinda like flash was when playing jaedong
You're saying that people aren't as good as compared to when Jaedong was dominating so Flash isn't really good? Dominating means that other people are no longer competitors... Flash is dominating so much now that other players seem to be on another tier completely. The reason Flash is so good now is BECAUSE his games vs P seem so ONE-SIDED... it's not that others have gotten worse, he's gotten BETTER
On September 12 2010 19:08 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: On a serious note, Flash is the best player of all time, but he has not done as many amazing things as some of the players before him. I wouldn't rank him the greatest player of all time, he's simply not old-school enough, but he's definetly the best I've ever seen. I honestly think Jaedong has done him some favours in recent tournies though, by beating some of the people who have a shot at flash. Flash has likewise helped Jaedong. I hated Boxer when he was in his prime, but he did some of the most amazing things ever done in starcraft. I'll never forget his game against Didi at WCG when he was at 60 supply against I forgot if it was 150 or 200 and still pulled off the win. That was amazing. Nal_Ra inventing hidden proxy DT, Proxy Robo's and scout openings. That was amazing. Flash is amazing too but there's so much innovation that's gone before him.
Sure, he is good... but like in all other "b" crap threads, people seem to forget in what era of BW flash is dominating. So, lets check what was going on in his "domination" era: If i recall, in bw its P>T>Z>P (not much... but still, i believe people think thats true) era of jaedong domination strong players: effort, stork, bisu, flash, jangbi, fantasy, even leta was on a roll back then... and im sure there are more, but those people were almost unbeatable unless they played each other! so he had to be good vs all 3 races, even T that > Z and in zvz (least forgiving matchup) Flash now has... 0 protoss to care about (stork is there, but not that much, he is going on and off all the time)... and every good player except jaedong is slumping atm (even effort before he somehow got to win that title against flash was mediocre at best and losing to everyone and everything)... so... flash has only 1 really good player to worry about, and its TvZ on TvZ favored maps in recent tournaments... and somehow because he is dominating the "low" of bw, he is somehow more deserving to be called best atm, best ever, and other b-word than people who dominated during the time when like 10 other players were peaking, and not slumping...
Im sorry, but flash is nowhere near the "best of all time" in my eyes... and he is nowhere near as deserving to be called b-word as jaedong... let alone to be put in same sentance as nada or boxer
if somehow bisu, stork, jangbi (pvt monster) and others somehow rejuvinate and start playing like back then, and flash still dominates... then all hail the king... but as it is, naaah
On September 14 2010 07:32 Mumei wrote: Out of curiosity, what changed in the last year that made Flash start dominating as much as he has been? I mean, he's always been a fantastic player, and has been a clear #1 at other times, just never quite to this degree. What made him go from ~50 - 50 with Jaedong coming into 2009, to a ~70 - 30 record against him since the NATE MSL?
everyone but jaedong started slumping (and considering P>T... he had easy way with mostly tvt and tvz, with some tvp against one hit P like stats, violet etc), and he stopped 14cc so kwanro didnt destroy him and jaedong seems to become more nervous when playing flash... kinda like flash was when playing jaedong
You're saying that people aren't as good as compared to when Jaedong was dominating so Flash isn't really good? Dominating means that other people are no longer competitors... Flash is dominating so much now that other players seem to be on another tier completely. The reason Flash is so good now is BECAUSE his games vs P seem so ONE-SIDED... it's not that others have gotten worse, he's gotten BETTER
I completly agree with that statement. The other players would start doing better again without flash he's just been able to understand so well that other players can't keep up wiht him
On September 12 2010 19:08 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: On a serious note, Flash is the best player of all time, but he has not done as many amazing things as some of the players before him. I wouldn't rank him the greatest player of all time, he's simply not old-school enough, but he's definetly the best I've ever seen. I honestly think Jaedong has done him some favours in recent tournies though, by beating some of the people who have a shot at flash. Flash has likewise helped Jaedong. I hated Boxer when he was in his prime, but he did some of the most amazing things ever done in starcraft. I'll never forget his game against Didi at WCG when he was at 60 supply against I forgot if it was 150 or 200 and still pulled off the win. That was amazing. Nal_Ra inventing hidden proxy DT, Proxy Robo's and scout openings. That was amazing. Flash is amazing too but there's so much innovation that's gone before him.
Sure, he is good... but like in all other "b" crap threads, people seem to forget in what era of BW flash is dominating. So, lets check what was going on in his "domination" era: If i recall, in bw its P>T>Z>P (not much... but still, i believe people think thats true) era of jaedong domination strong players: effort, stork, bisu, flash, jangbi, fantasy, even leta was on a roll back then... and im sure there are more, but those people were almost unbeatable unless they played each other! so he had to be good vs all 3 races, even T that > Z and in zvz (least forgiving matchup) Flash now has... 0 protoss to care about (stork is there, but not that much, he is going on and off all the time)... and every good player except jaedong is slumping atm (even effort before he somehow got to win that title against flash was mediocre at best and losing to everyone and everything)... so... flash has only 1 really good player to worry about, and its TvZ on TvZ favored maps in recent tournaments... and somehow because he is dominating the "low" of bw, he is somehow more deserving to be called best atm, best ever, and other b-word than people who dominated during the time when like 10 other players were peaking, and not slumping...
Im sorry, but flash is nowhere near the "best of all time" in my eyes... and he is nowhere near as deserving to be called b-word as jaedong... let alone to be put in same sentance as nada or boxer
if somehow bisu, stork, jangbi (pvt monster) and others somehow rejuvinate and start playing like back then, and flash still dominates... then all hail the king... but as it is, naaah
On September 14 2010 07:32 Mumei wrote: Out of curiosity, what changed in the last year that made Flash start dominating as much as he has been? I mean, he's always been a fantastic player, and has been a clear #1 at other times, just never quite to this degree. What made him go from ~50 - 50 with Jaedong coming into 2009, to a ~70 - 30 record against him since the NATE MSL?
everyone but jaedong started slumping (and considering P>T... he had easy way with mostly tvt and tvz, with some tvp against one hit P like stats, violet etc), and he stopped 14cc so kwanro didnt destroy him and jaedong seems to become more nervous when playing flash... kinda like flash was when playing jaedong
oh so I guess Proleague MVP, winning Proleague for the first time in team's history, Winner's League MVP, OSL & MSL dual title winner, 5 starleague titles, golden mouse, +70% in all MU's for the season, etc. doesn't qualify you for even "Bonjwa"... while JD qualifies somehow. hmm great logic.
and seriously? everyone else is doing FINE. The only problem is that Flash and JD are doing so unbelievably well that everyone else seems fail in comparison. Sure, some people are slumping, but some people will ALWAYS be slumping. There can never be a season without someone slumping.
I wish Flash would be utterly crushed by Bisu or a new protoss player and not only revive the 6 dragons but create a new Protoss group called BlackThunder! Bisu will be the head, stork, best, jangbi, free, and kal will dominate the whole proscene. Making Protoss seem imba for once in the history of progaming. Bisu will get plantinum mouse AND keyboard trophy which you get when you win 5 msls and 5 osls, stork will get silver mouse lol, and we will see endless amount of PvP finals. zerg and terran will cower at the sound of BlackThunder. Protoss will be considered so imba that sc becomes broken, and they have separate leagues for protoss by themselves. so Zerg and Terran will face off, while PvP plays go on in a different league. The last survivor of the zvt zvz and tvt league, will be honored to have a chance to fight the weakest Protoss of the league. Then bw fans will finally realize the true potential that Protoss had along, and will remember Protoss as the race that finally got its glory.
On September 19 2010 06:52 Raz0r wrote: I wish Flash would be utterly crushed by Bisu or a new protoss player and not only revive the 6 dragons but create a new Protoss group called BlackThunder! Bisu will be the head, stork, best, jangbi, free, and kal will dominate the whole proscene. Making Protoss seem imba for once in the history of progaming. Bisu will get plantinum mouse, stork will get silver mouse lol, and we will see endless amount of PvP finals. zerg and terran will cower at the sound of BlackThunder. Protoss will be considered so imba that sc becomes broken, and they have separate leagues for protoss by themselves. so Zerg and Terran will face off, while PvP plays go on in a different league. The last survivor of the zvt zvz and tvt league, will be honored to have a chance to fight the weakest Protoss of the league. Then bw fans will finally realize the true potential that Protoss had along, and will remember Protoss as the race that finally got its glory.
On September 12 2010 19:08 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: On a serious note, Flash is the best player of all time, but he has not done as many amazing things as some of the players before him. I wouldn't rank him the greatest player of all time, he's simply not old-school enough, but he's definetly the best I've ever seen. I honestly think Jaedong has done him some favours in recent tournies though, by beating some of the people who have a shot at flash. Flash has likewise helped Jaedong. I hated Boxer when he was in his prime, but he did some of the most amazing things ever done in starcraft. I'll never forget his game against Didi at WCG when he was at 60 supply against I forgot if it was 150 or 200 and still pulled off the win. That was amazing. Nal_Ra inventing hidden proxy DT, Proxy Robo's and scout openings. That was amazing. Flash is amazing too but there's so much innovation that's gone before him.
Flash's innovations are much more subtle. The broad strokes other players have developed in the past are easy to recognize and discover. Flash's brilliance lies in the perfectly calculated economic advantages he creates for himself. Other players that have also been successful like Boxer simply are not capable of making these same innovations, while also maintaining top level execution. What you call amazing are simply emotional highlights for you.
On September 19 2010 04:46 genai wrote: Flash now has... 0 protoss to care about (stork is there, but not that much, he is going on and off all the time)... and every good player except jaedong is slumping atm (even effort before he somehow got to win that title against flash was mediocre at best and losing to everyone and everything)... so... flash has only 1 really good player to worry about, and its TvZ on TvZ favored maps in recent tournaments... and somehow because he is dominating the "low" of bw, he is somehow more deserving to be called best atm, best ever, and other b-word than people who dominated during the time when like 10 other players were peaking, and not slumping...
Im sorry, but flash is nowhere near the "best of all time" in my eyes... and he is nowhere near as deserving to be called b-word as jaedong... let alone to be put in same sentance as nada or boxer.
If Flash did not exist Jaedong would have at a minimum 6 titles right now, quite likely 7 and he's so good it's not even a huge stretch to suggest he'd have won all three and got to 8. Yet Flash is DOMINATING that player who would have been hailed as the greatest of all time, broken NaDa's record, broken the records for OSL and MSL titles etc.
Keep in mind that many of the bonjwas played during eras when there weren't many Bo5s, MSL was double elimination Bo3 except the finals etc. Jaedong was the best Bo5 player ever prior to the Hana Daetoo MSL finals, hell he may well still be when you consider his overall stats and his LWWWs. Yet Flash has beaten him three times in a row in Bo5 finals. Give credit where credit's due.
I love Flash and I love Jaedong that's why I can truly appreciate how incredible what Flash has done is.
On September 19 2010 06:52 Raz0r wrote: I wish Flash would be utterly crushed by Bisu or a new protoss player and not only revive the 6 dragons but create a new Protoss group called BlackThunder! Bisu will be the head, stork, best, jangbi, free, and kal will dominate the whole proscene. Making Protoss seem imba for once in the history of progaming. Bisu will get plantinum mouse, stork will get silver mouse lol, and we will see endless amount of PvP finals. zerg and terran will cower at the sound of BlackThunder. Protoss will be considered so imba that sc becomes broken, and they have separate leagues for protoss by themselves. so Zerg and Terran will face off, while PvP plays go on in a different league. The last survivor of the zvt zvz and tvt league, will be honored to have a chance to fight the weakest Protoss of the league. Then bw fans will finally realize the true potential that Protoss had along, and will remember Protoss as the race that finally got its glory.
i love how specific the qualifications for the "god line" are. Though, I have to argue that proleague is more of a team effort than a single-entity effort (though the winner's league still stands).
Though Flash is awesome for becoming a bonjwa and having tons of success this year, it really makes me sad to remember that there hasn't been a protoss bonjwa at all yet, nor will there ever be one. (dammit Protosses, Step up your game!) >.<
and somehow because he is dominating the "low" of bw, he is somehow more deserving to be called best atm, best ever, and other b-word than people who dominated during the time when like 10 other players were peaking, and not slumping...
Im sorry, but flash is nowhere near the "best of all time" in my eyes... and he is nowhere near as deserving to be called b-word as jaedong... let alone to be put in same sentance as nada or boxer
This argument is weak because if you were to pull out "the low" you would see stats and games that are on the contrary. Also flash beat jaedong enough times to put the second argument to sleep.
EPT
and jaedong seems to become more nervous when playing flash... kinda like flash was when playing jaedong
