Win at least 4 individual league titles in a season. Achieve 80% winrate in 100 matches in official games. Become the MVP for the Proleague Regular season, Winner's League, and the Post season. Have your team win the Proleague in the regular season, the winner's league, and the Post Season. Be in the finals of every official league in one season, including the Proleague. Obtain over 100 wins in official matches in one season, and obtain a 70% win rate against all races. Three consecutive dual-league final apperances Win both individual leagues in one season. Golden Mouse
It's more humorous than anything. I thought it was cute enough to share. Don't take it too seriously~
On September 12 2010 16:23 seRapH wrote: well i'm assuming this godline is still below NADA
Nada was revolutionary but never was he able to achieve that in a year. I understand everyones respect for Nada but this is a disservice to Flash if you can't recognize what he's done
On September 12 2010 16:23 seRapH wrote: well i'm assuming this godline is still below NADA
Nada was revolutionary but never was he able to achieve that in a year. I understand everyones respect for Nada but this is a disservice to Flash if you can't recognize what he's done
Flash would be a god, if he could do this with PROTOSS. POWER TO AIUR, KAL WILL OWN YOU IN WCG FLASH. POWER TO AIUR NAL_RA WILL BE OUT OF HIS COMMUNITY SERVICE SOON TOO. PROTOSS PROTOSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On September 12 2010 18:56 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: NAL_RA WILL BE OUT OF HIS COMMUNITY SERVICE SOON TOO.
Community Service? he was doing his 4 weeks of basic training (which he should already be done with). He still has around 20 months of mandatory military service.
On a serious note, Flash is the best player of all time, but he has not done as many amazing things as some of the players before him. I wouldn't rank him the greatest player of all time, he's simply not old-school enough, but he's definetly the best I've ever seen. I honestly think Jaedong has done him some favours in recent tournies though, by beating some of the people who have a shot at flash. Flash has likewise helped Jaedong. I hated Boxer when he was in his prime, but he did some of the most amazing things ever done in starcraft. I'll never forget his game against Didi at WCG when he was at 60 supply against I forgot if it was 150 or 200 and still pulled off the win. That was amazing. Nal_Ra inventing hidden proxy DT, Proxy Robo's and scout openings. That was amazing. Flash is amazing too but there's so much innovation that's gone before him.
On September 12 2010 18:56 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: NAL_RA WILL BE OUT OF HIS COMMUNITY SERVICE SOON TOO.
Community Service? he was doing his 4 weeks of basic training (which he should already be done with). He still has around 20 months of mandatory military service.
Oh my, I thought I read somewhere that he was only gonna do community service instead of military service. I knew he wasn't gonna be done soon though, was just living the lie for the fun of it......
Wow, thinking about it Flash really had an unbelievable season. It's so amazing it's ridiculous. He went for everything at once and still almost managed to get it...
Flash is uninteresting in that he often destroys his opponents effortlessly but he's current games are definitely action packed. He's probably the most aggressive terran right now only without any of the over-aggression that plagued terrans like Iris.
FlaSh is the epitome of the perfect SC player. I've never witnessed anyone control the flow of games like he has, it's simply mind-blowing. While this is quite humorous, it's quite accurate. He's, imho, risen to beyond anything or anyone we've seen before.
Scary thing is Flash is so young. If BW continues, he's definitely gonna have at least 4 more peak years ahead of him until he starts to decline (unless a rookie Zerg inexplicably rapes him 3-0 in a series, he gets humiliated by a protoss over and over, who then proceeds to do a ridiculous dance around him, then he starts throwing games )
On September 12 2010 17:29 a176 wrote: I'd take it seriously.
He obviously lacks the entertainment value of past players. But you can't argue with the results.
Bullshit. It's your opinion man, nothing else. Flash is the single most entertaining player to watch imho.
I don't see how turtling most of your games is entertaining.
He was extremely aggressive vs Free and Jaedong in the last 3 Bo5s he's played and if anything, this year I'm amazed at how varied Flash's play has been and how many timing pushes he's busted out in TvP this year. I really don't see how you could say he always turtles nowadays. When was the last time he split the map vs a protoss? Whatever, I think I've accepted the gaming community is one of the most pessimistic and ungrateful communities.
I don't take anyone complaining about Flash being turtling and boring seriously anymore. He's really fucking aggressive these days, and it's a huge part of his enormous success. He is better than everyone else in a proper and normal macro game, so you pretty much have to try something risky to get an advantage vs him, but he's also pretty much the best player in the world at punishing those attemps. I mean, he's doing stuff like bunker rushing three 12 Nex in a row vs Free in the MSL last season.
On September 12 2010 23:43 Holgerius wrote: I don't take anyone complaining about Flash being turtling and boring seriously anymore. He's really fucking aggressive these days, and it's a huge part of his enormous success. He is better than everyone else in a proper and normal macro game, so you pretty much have to try something risky to get an advantage vs him, but he's also pretty much the best player in the world at punishing those attemps. I mean, he's doing stuff like bunker rushing three 12 Nex in a row vs Free in the MSL last season.
Agreed. He (Flash) has so many cards up his sleeve, and he can play them all so well. Loved his play since way back, even when so many people were hating on him for being too cheesy. The cheese against Stork in particular (Bacchus 2008) still strikes me as genius - baiting the Commander into playing a macro game then proxy-ing, haha.
Seriously he is almost perfect. His macro is amazing, his micro is formidable, and his game sense is unreal.
He is able to play macro and cheese style and mix his play so he is really hard to predict.
edit: when the only guys who have a slight chance to beat him in a bo3 or bo5 are the #1 zerg and the #2 zerg and they have to play unorthodox / cheesy, well i don't think that we are allowed to question his bonjwa status.
It's like FlaSh does every single goddamn thing written on BW players' to-do lists perfectly.... "Hmm, I wrote down 'play mind games' here. Interesting suggestion. I think I'll incorporate that into every BoX I have so that my general strategy almost always counters their general strategy" >_________>
On September 12 2010 23:22 SubtleArt wrote: Scary thing is Flash is so young. If BW continues, he's definitely gonna have at least 4 more peak years ahead of him until he starts to decline (unless a rookie Zerg inexplicably rapes him 3-0 in a series, he gets humiliated by a protoss over and over, who then proceeds to do a ridiculous dance around him, then he starts throwing games )
On September 12 2010 17:29 a176 wrote: I'd take it seriously.
He obviously lacks the entertainment value of past players. But you can't argue with the results.
Bullshit. It's your opinion man, nothing else. Flash is the single most entertaining player to watch imho.
I don't see how turtling most of your games is entertaining.
He was extremely aggressive vs Free and Jaedong in the last 3 Bo5s he's played and if anything, this year I'm amazed at how varied Flash's play has been and how many timing pushes he's busted out in TvP this year. I really don't see how you could say he always turtles nowadays. When was the last time he split the map vs a protoss? Whatever, I think I've accepted the gaming community is one of the most pessimistic and ungrateful communities.
I'm pretty sure he was trolling hard or maybe even being sarcastic. By now everyone should know that Flash is one of the most aggressive players in Starcraft.
On September 12 2010 19:08 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: On a serious note, Flash is the best player of all time, but he has not done as many amazing things as some of the players before him. I wouldn't rank him the greatest player of all time, he's simply not old-school enough, but he's definetly the best I've ever seen. I honestly think Jaedong has done him some favours in recent tournies though, by beating some of the people who have a shot at flash. Flash has likewise helped Jaedong. I hated Boxer when he was in his prime, but he did some of the most amazing things ever done in starcraft. I'll never forget his game against Didi at WCG when he was at 60 supply against I forgot if it was 150 or 200 and still pulled off the win. That was amazing. Nal_Ra inventing hidden proxy DT, Proxy Robo's and scout openings. That was amazing. Flash is amazing too but there's so much innovation that's gone before him.
IF you can beat any player in the world you are the best player of all time. Flash being around at the end of the BW scene means he is the best to do it, now AND then. IF any player from the past matched up against him they would lose hands down. he is arguably the BEST PLAYER EVER.
For pure winning reasons not finesse or originality.
fucking a flash. why wont u lose to jaedong T___T you are too good for your own good. i hope jaedong comes back with a vengence... he needs a transformation. or he needs to learn with effort how to z v t against flash.
One thing you forgot: Be #1 in Power Rank... rofl Flash has been doing ridiculously well, but as someone who started watching BW in mid 2007 I really don't have a good idea of how much older pros dominated. (no past Gods?)
I like this idea of "god" more than bonjwa for his amazing record this year. Fits him better
On September 13 2010 00:08 Boblion wrote: when the only guys who have a slight chance to beat him in a bo3 or bo5 are the #1 zerg and the #2 zerg and they have to play unorthodox / cheesy, well i don't think that we are allowed to question his bonjwa status.
I really don't like this sentiment because it sets up a double standard. Why do people feel that a zerg is somehow required to let the terran reach the late game phase without doing anything? With Flash's greedy openings, the best way to punish it would be something extremely aggressive early on in the game. If you can end it early, why not go for it? It's natural when facing an opponent to hit his/her weakest link in his/her plan, no? Effort recognized this and took advantage of it. Jaedong has already showed that he can handle Flash in a late game scenario (Game 3, MSL), but he is still entitled to going aggressive openings if he so desires. The notion that zergs somehow have to "resort" to doing something seems a bit unfair to me.
To be completely honest, the timing pushes in Games 1 and 2 of the MSL by Flash were pretty unorthodox. They were definitely baller, but were specifically designed to catch Jaedong off-guard. Also Games 2 and 4 of the OSL would be considered cheesy openings by Flash also.
The reason why I think Flash is so good is because he uses the idea of "marginal advantage" better than anyone ever seen. In Game 4, he immediately constructed a CC after taking down JD's overlord and 4 drones instead of committing to the rush. His evaluation inside the game is unparalleled. He "actively thinks" instead of just being a machine. I also think JD is very similar and just had some bad luck against Flash.
On September 12 2010 23:59 ella_guru wrote: Yea those who rip on him about a boring style obviously havent bothered to watch a game of his this last season.
Step 1: Flash makes perfect use of Terran's superior defensive options to hold back any early aggression and prevent scouting from the opponent while simultaneously getting the scouting information he needs to decide what he should do. Step 2: Flash monitors his opponent with periodic scans, and moves out at the perfect timing - when Flash has enough units to roll through his opponent unchallenged, and he wins.
Most of the variations occur within this same basic framework. If the initial timing push doesn't work, and his opponent is able to get their third / fourth bases set up (assuming he is facing Zerg or Protoss), then Flash's games are really, really entertaining because it might become an exciting back-and-forth affair instead of a "Flash's opponent doesn't have enough units to safely attack Flash, so Flash is immune from attack, then Flash uses his superior macro to roll over his opponent 10 minutes into the game" affair. But most of the time Flash wins before that point, and I'm not really entertained seeing Flash just roll over his opponent's with timing pushes.
Maybe if I liked watching Terran play I'd enjoy it more, but for me most of his games are an exercise in frustration to watch.
Edit: Just so I'm clear, I'm not explaining why Flash isn't entertaining, generally, or why other people shouldn't feel entertained, but why I don't enjoy his games as much.
haha Milkis that's pretty good. Flash is definitely a god of starcraft. I think he's like a classic Greek or other pantheon god though... far beyond mere mortals, though with some character flaws
edit: which god would he be? Hmm... double armory build is making me think perhaps Hephaestus/Vulcan :D
BEST PLAYER EVER PERIOD. Not the most successful that is Nada, not the most innovative/creative thats Boxer, not the best finalist that is Oov, not the most dominating with a "underpowered" race that is Savior, and the one that killed all the bonjwas that was jaedong, hell even jaedong has a better bo5 winrate but flash did all those things in one year NO ONE HAS done what flash did and that is the bottom line man. He may not play with super special flair but oov also didint and people hated him for it. Face it man he may be a cheeser a turtler but to be the best in the world you also have to cheese and you also have to use the map to your advantage.
On September 12 2010 23:59 ella_guru wrote: Yea those who rip on him about a boring style obviously havent bothered to watch a game of his this last season.
Step 1: Flash makes perfect use of Terran's superior defensive options to hold back any early aggression and prevent scouting from the opponent while simultaneously getting the scouting information he needs to decide what he should do. Step 2: Flash monitors his opponent with periodic scans, and moves out at the perfect timing - when Flash has enough units to roll through his opponent unchallenged, and he wins.
Most of the variations occur within this same basic framework. If the initial timing push doesn't work, and his opponent is able to get their third / fourth bases set up (assuming he is facing Zerg or Protoss), then Flash's games are really, really entertaining because it might become an exciting back-and-forth affair instead of a "Flash's opponent doesn't have enough units to safely attack Flash, so Flash is immune from attack, then Flash uses his superior macro to roll over his opponent 10 minutes into the game" affair. But most of the time Flash wins before that point, and I'm not really entertained seeing Flash just roll over his opponent's with timing pushes.
Maybe if I liked watching Terran play I'd enjoy it more, but for me most of his games are an exercise in frustration to watch.
Edit: Just so I'm clear, I'm not explaining why Flash isn't entertaining, generally, or why other people shouldn't feel entertained, but why I don't enjoy his games as much.
Well you can't blame Flash for being so good that opponents roll over and die before they can even get a third base going .
He truely might be "The end of Starcraft", as in being the ultimate Brood War player before SC:BW slowly fades away and makes places for it's sequel to reign e-sports for the next ten years to come. Mixed feelings there....mixed feelings....Damn, I just love both games soo much. May they live in coexistence for aeons!!! Oh yeah and Congrats to Flash, although I was rooting for Jaedong to be the first to ever win 4 OSL titles.
On September 13 2010 01:08 EternaLEnVy wrote: Did oov not achive something better in terms of win rate when he first started?
Oov had like an 80% winrate against zerg and low 70%s vs the other races over about 100 games, give or take, when he was the indisputable best. At the very least he was similar to Flash.
On September 13 2010 02:59 HeadhunteR wrote: BEST PLAYER EVER PERIOD. Not the most successful that is Nada, not the most innovative/creative thats Boxer, not the best finalist that is Oov, not the most dominating with a "underpowered" race that is Savior, and the one that killed all the bonjwas that was jaedong, hell even jaedong has a better bo5 winrate but flash did all those things in one year NO ONE HAS done what flash did and that is the bottom line man. He may not play with super special flair but oov also didint and people hated him for it. Face it man he may be a cheeser a turtler but to be the best in the world you also have to cheese and you also have to use the map to your advantage.
You can't compare flash's cheese against jaedong's. JD probably cheesed half his last 15 games.
Why can't we has multiple gods? Polytheism is cool. The heavens of Mount Olympus rage between the battles of July, the God of War, and Boxer, the Terran Emperor.
Flashius and Jaedong face off. All life on Earth pauses to watch.
On September 13 2010 07:23 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Why can't we has multiple gods? Polytheism is cool. The heavens of Mount Olympus rage between the battles of July, the God of War, and Boxer, the Terran Emperor.
Flashius and Jaedong face off. All life on Earth pauses to watch.
Monotheism is retarded, following rules and respecting demands of so called prophets and their books shaping up your entire life, etc /off-topic. So i'm with you, it really fits well with the BW scene, battles and rivalry of gods, that's sublime.
On September 12 2010 23:28 heyoka wrote: Winning both individual leagues seems pretty god.
Fixed that for ya :D
Korean Netizens are awesome, but Flash really is a god among men. I like the Greek God reference for the reasons he stated, character flaws as any mere mortal but truly ascended.
On September 12 2010 17:29 a176 wrote: I'd take it seriously.
He obviously lacks the entertainment value of past players. But you can't argue with the results.
Bullshit. It's your opinion man, nothing else. Flash is the single most entertaining player to watch imho.
I don't see how turtling most of your games is entertaining.
i quit following the bw scene right when flash began to emerge and this used to be the mainstream opinion about flash either 1) all in bunker rush or 2) turtle like crazy and slowly take 1 base at a time (at least against zerg... probably still seeing flash through my zerg fanboy goggles from years ago)
i come back in 2010 and now hes the jesus of bw hes really really good obviously but his play style is far from interesting to me
I don't like him, you don't like him... Maybe some of you like him, I dunno. That doesn't matter. What matters is that Flash is playing really, really good. Straight wins, too. No cheese from the kid in quite a while. Flash cruised easily into both leagues this season, so we'll see what he can do. Gotta give credit where it's due, even if Flash does look vaguely like a confused fish.
maybe i was heavily under the influence of fakesteve's power rankings, but this was always my impression of flash constant cheese and then would mix it up with the most boring turtle game ever
I'm surprised that people find flash's playstyle "boring". I mean, 5 barracks is pretty boring, isn't it?
To me, if you find flash boring, you are missing out the intricacies of every decision and choice he does in the game, and you are probably lacking on the understand of how to play starcraft.
Well tbh. This is what I see from Flash's play. Go like REALLY greedy build and then play a macro game. Then outmacro by turtling. Then if people goes like "Oh I must go REALLY greedy build and match him in Macro too!" then Flash goes like cheesing and then the other guy go like "Ugh, I have to defend against cheese too?" Then he'll go play a really safe build to defend against it when they think its coming then Flash will go greedy again and punish that build with a macro game. THEN there is finally a build that designed to specifically tailored to go safe but not too safe build, Flash goes for some weird timing push to destroy that. And whenever the other guy played better than Flash, they get overly excited and then threw their advantage by being overly aggressive instead of just cordinating their attack carefully and calmly (but WHO would get excited when they think they are winning against Flash) and try to match Flash's macro. The thing is that Terran can do 3 things, cheesing with BBS/Bunker Rush, play turtles and then do those weird ForGG timing pushes. Flash is REALLY good at playing mindgames with his opponent BUT his play is totally standard.
Its only a matter of time before a counter is found to this current style of play, and then only a matter of time until a counter is found to that. That's why BW keeps existing and evolving. These FlaSh praise threads are getting kind of annoying. Don't forget that other than FlaSh, noone can stand up to Jaedong consistently either. Also, bitching about Jaedong cheesing isn't any better than the people who bitched about FlaSh playing cheesy.
On September 13 2010 10:05 Diminotoor wrote: Its only a matter of time before a counter is found to this current style of play, and then only a matter of time until a counter is found to that. That's why BW keeps existing and evolving. These FlaSh praise threads are getting kind of annoying. Don't forget that other than FlaSh, noone can stand up to Jaedong consistently either. Also, bitching about Jaedong cheesing isn't any better than the people who bitched about FlaSh playing cheesy.
That's exactly one of the reason why Flash is praised so much. He has surpassed his greatest rival. He won 3 last finals against Jaedong with a score 9:3.
Since Jaedong is by far best player save for Flash what does it say about Flash? Go figure...
On September 13 2010 10:01 Holgerius wrote: I don't get what playstyle you would like if you don't like how Flash plays. He does everything; cheese, timing attacks, turtle, you name it.
See like I agree that Flash is a really fucking good player and all but I wouldn't like show my friends that haven't seen a pro SC games of Flash playing because they wouldn't understand the small tweaks in Flash's play. Most of them have gotten bored of his turtle play and said stuff to me like "So he turtles like crazy til his opponents make a mistake, his opponent just keep throwing units at that wall of tanks, yeah....his opponents is too reckless" and when he cheeses, they'll go saying stuff like "Bunker rush eh? I can do that too!".
P.S. I don't care what others call him but I personally wouldn't call him the B word til he beat Effort as Zerg cuz I think Effort is the only Zerg that isn't shaken by Flash atm. and until he beat Stork in a Best of 5. As I understood the B word is for like the player that you would say "Yeah of course, he'll win against ANYONE!" and I see Effort and Stork getting in the way of Flash's Bonjwa status, w/e hopefully we'll see them playing vs each other in the near future (PLEASE ANOTHER OSL/MSL!).
"Have your team win the Proleague in the regular season, the winner's league, and the Post Season."
i don't think this one belongs. after all, this is about an individual person, not his team. if KT always loses 1-3 with flash winning, he doesn't deserve that status?
Effort got lucky in ONE BO5. In the past three seasons, Flash has lost three games against protoss. People come up with the most ridiculous reasons not to call Flash a bonjwa.
On September 13 2010 10:01 Holgerius wrote: I don't get what playstyle you would like if you don't like how Flash plays. He does everything; cheese, timing attacks, turtle, you name it.
See like I agree that Flash is a really fucking good player and all but I wouldn't like show my friends that haven't seen a pro SC games of Flash playing because they wouldn't understand the small tweaks in Flash's play. Most of them have gotten bored of his turtle play and said stuff to me like "So he turtles like crazy til his opponents make a mistake, his opponent just keep throwing units at that wall of tanks, yeah....his opponents is too reckless" and when he cheeses, they'll go saying stuff like "Bunker rush eh? I can do that too!".
P.S. I don't care what others call him but I personally wouldn't call him the B word til he beat Effort as Zerg cuz I think Effort is the only Zerg that isn't shaken by Flash atm. and until he beat Stork in a Best of 5. As I understood the B word is for like the player that you would say "Yeah of course, he'll win against ANYONE!" and I see Effort and Stork getting in the way of Flash's Bonjwa status, w/e hopefully we'll see them playing vs each other in the near future (PLEASE ANOTHER OSL/MSL!).
:| One of the main players that made me, and many other people I have read, start watching starcraft is, in fact, flash. I don't really agree with your argument on either side. Flash is bonjwa - saying he needs to beat effort or stork in a BO5 is ridiculous and far too situational/idealisitic - not to mention its not like flash hasn't beaten stork in series before... If stork and effort were the best rivals / players to flash, they would have been in the finals instead of jaedong
On September 13 2010 10:05 Diminotoor wrote: Its only a matter of time before a counter is found to this current style of play, and then only a matter of time until a counter is found to that. That's why BW keeps existing and evolving. These FlaSh praise threads are getting kind of annoying. Don't forget that other than FlaSh, noone can stand up to Jaedong consistently either. Also, bitching about Jaedong cheesing isn't any better than the people who bitched about FlaSh playing cheesy.
That's exactly one of the reason why Flash is praised so much. He has surpassed his greatest rival. He won 3 last finals against Jaedong with a score 9:3.
Since Jaedong is by far best player save for Flash what does it say about Flash? Go figure...
I just don't think the gap is as humongous as people are making it seem. The tone in all these threads is that Jaedong is somehow "bad". I don't care if noone explicitly said it, that's the tone that's being set. I get the idea that JvF will be a mu we should get used to seeing for a while until another bonjwa-to-be steps into the scene.
On September 13 2010 10:05 Diminotoor wrote: Its only a matter of time before a counter is found to this current style of play, and then only a matter of time until a counter is found to that. That's why BW keeps existing and evolving. These FlaSh praise threads are getting kind of annoying. Don't forget that other than FlaSh, noone can stand up to Jaedong consistently either. Also, bitching about Jaedong cheesing isn't any better than the people who bitched about FlaSh playing cheesy.
That's exactly one of the reason why Flash is praised so much. He has surpassed his greatest rival. He won 3 last finals against Jaedong with a score 9:3.
Since Jaedong is by far best player save for Flash what does it say about Flash? Go figure...
I just don't think the gap is as humongous as people are making it seem. The tone in all these threads is that Jaedong is somehow "bad". I don't care if noone explicitly said it, that's the tone that's being set. I get the idea that JvF will be a mu we should get used to seeing for a while until another bonjwa-to-be steps into the scene.
True - I don't think that the maps are as bad as they seem (I don't think PR is 60% as much as its around 55% once zergs feel more comfortable punishing mech players again) - and I don't think they were as much of a reason jaedong lost as it was bad decision making, some bad luck, and being out played in the mindgames by flash. If we played these two series 100 times, I think it would be fairly close to 50-50.
Flash has played vs Stork in a Bo5 final before. The article about it was called ''Prison rape''.
And when has anyone ever said that JD is ''bad''? That's just nonsense. Everyone holds JD as the second best player in the world by far, and he would without a doubt have been bonjwa if it wasn't for Flash. He's fucking amazing, but right now (and it's been that way for quite a while) Flash is even better and he also has a huge mental advantage over JD. I'd favour Flash at least 60-40 if they were to play another Bo5 tomorrow.
Anyways, how does it even matter if Flash is ''boring''?
Nobody's saying that Jaedong is bad; Flash is just clearly the better player right now. Incidentally, regarding the maps: Jaedong won on the "TERRAN IMBA OMFG" map, whereas Flash won on "ZERGLINER OH NOES".
I don't care if noone explicitly said it, that's the tone that's being set.
And when has anyone ever said that JD is ''bad''? That's just nonsense.
Of course its nonsense. So is not reading what I was very careful to word so that someone wouldn't misinterpret it like this. I seriously think that these 2 will push how Zerg and Terran are played to a new level because they have each other to practice against (FlaSh has been getting all the interviews lately, but I think Jaedong also thinks that FlaSh is probably the most fun to play against). All that's missing is a Protoss champion to push BW even farther.
And when has anyone ever said that JD is ''bad''? That's just nonsense.
Of course its nonsense. So is not reading what I was very careful to word so that someone wouldn't misinterpret it like this. I seriously think that these 2 will push how Zerg and Terran are played to a new level because they have each other to practice against (FlaSh has been getting all the interviews lately, but I think Jaedong also thinks that FlaSh is probably the most fun to play against). All that's missing is a Protoss champion to push BW even farther.
I really fail to see the tone that you're talking about. Praising Flash does not = thinking lowly of Jaedong. Like Lebesgue said, a major reason to why Flash is praised such an exteme degree is that JD is insanely fucking good. Remove Flash and JD is bonjwa, hands down. He's a huuuuge favourite over anyone in a Bo5. So the fact that Flash is 9-3 vs JD over the course of the last 3 Starleague finals is mind-blowing. There is definitely a gap between Flash and JD, just like there's a gap between JD and everyone else.
Yesterday I opened this thread just before jumping on to watch the OSL final VODs and was painfully spoiled. Please add [spoiler] to threads like this next time milkis.
On September 13 2010 12:06 mrdx wrote: Yesterday I opened this thread just before jumping on to watch the OSL final VODs and was painfully spoiled. Please add [spoiler] to threads like this next time milkis.
It's pretty common knowledge to not open any other threads after a finals before watching a finals. While a [spoiler] would have been nice, why would you be browsing the BW section's threads after the OSL finals and not expect to be spoilered?
On September 13 2010 12:06 mrdx wrote: Yesterday I opened this thread just before jumping on to watch the OSL final VODs and was painfully spoiled. Please add [spoiler] to threads like this next time milkis.
It's pretty common knowledge to not open any other threads after a finals before watching a finals. While a [spoiler] would have been nice, why would you be browsing the BW section's threads after the OSL finals and not expect to be spoilered?
I don't care if noone explicitly said it, that's the tone that's being set.
And when has anyone ever said that JD is ''bad''? That's just nonsense.
Of course its nonsense. So is not reading what I was very careful to word so that someone wouldn't misinterpret it like this. I seriously think that these 2 will push how Zerg and Terran are played to a new level because they have each other to practice against (FlaSh has been getting all the interviews lately, but I think Jaedong also thinks that FlaSh is probably the most fun to play against). All that's missing is a Protoss champion to push BW even farther.
I really fail to see the tone that you're talking about. Praising Flash does not = thinking lowly of Jaedong.
Then here let me help you by quoting like half the thread.
raga4ka wrote: This "god" line will start and end with Flash since no one else is capable of achieving this
pyro19 wrote: Sorry , there won"t be another God line since BW is fast dying out. This is reserved only for Flash,
Boblion wrote: when the only guys who have a slight chance to beat him in a bo3 or bo5 are the #1 zerg and the #2 zerg and they have to play unorthodox / cheesy
raga4ka wrote: opponents roll over and die before they can even get a third base going .
LuiginMario wrote: JD probably cheesed half his last 15 games.
I mean really man that's JUST in this thread alone. Go to the others and you find the EXACT SAME SHIT. Its old. Its not new anymore. If FlaSh is "god" (if you believe in such things), and unbeatable because he's just 99.999999% perfect, then Starcraft will die. Both 1 and 2. He already said he has NO plans to go to SC2 but should BW for some reason die out, he'd go there. I don't think anyone wants Starcraft franchise to die, so don't make ignorant blanket statements.
There is definitely a gap between Flash and JD, just like there's a gap between JD and everyone else.
If you're suggesting the gap between FlaSh and JD is even close to the gap that exists between the rest of the progaming world and them, then I strongly disagree. If you're suggesting the simple existence OF a gap between them and the existence OF a gap (difference in skill/gameplay not being thought of at all), then yes I agree, but it should've been more specific.
There's no doubt in anyone who knows even a tiny bit about SC:BW's best that FlaSh is top-notch. Why make 687239432 threads about it? Its cool he's been named bonjwa, I'm glad someone finally has been worthy of the title (most successful single season).
Lol, you are being paranoid; 5 quotes and pretty much only one of those (the last one, maybe the third one as well) show any sign of thinking lowly of JD. XD I mean, pointing out that no one else (no, not even JD) will probably ever reach every final during an entire year+winning dual Starleague titles+winning PL+winning WL+reaching over 4000 Kespa points+reaching 70+ % in all MU's etc etc, like Flash has done now does not mean they think JD is bad. JD is one of the absolutely greatest players of all time and I think literally everyone on TL will agree with that.
And I do think that the gap is quite large as of right now. Flash's win vs JD in the final was much more dominant than JD's win vs Stork in the semi. And that was JD's ''imba'' MU. I've even seen some hardcore JD fanboys agree that Flash>JD>Everyone else now. Things might change just like they have always done, and Flash is of course not unbeatable. It's just that since October last year he's 13-6 (including 3 straight Bo5 wins) vs the second best player in the world (who is way above everyone else), and what he has done during this period is completely unprecedented, so is it really that weird that we are fucking excited about it?
On September 13 2010 03:38 raga4ka wrote:Well you can't blame Flash for being so good that opponents roll over and die before they can even get a third base going .
I'm not. It just makes his games less entertaining for me. It's not even about who winning or losing - when he beat Fantasy in the MSL, those games were incredibly entertaining whether he won or lost. Game 1 of the WCG finals this year against Jaedong was a really, really fun game to watch, for another example.
I don't find Terran inherently entertaining, so when I watch Terran matches, I have a preference for back and forth games where the outcome is in doubt, and the only way I get those against is if the opponent survives through mid-game in good enough shape to macro effectively, since Flash just doesn't lose in the mid-game (well, rarely enough that I have trouble thinking of those last time) and Flash losing in the early game is as boring as Flash beating his opponent with an uncontested timing push.
On September 13 2010 12:06 mrdx wrote: Yesterday I opened this thread just before jumping on to watch the OSL final VODs and was painfully spoiled. Please add [spoiler] to threads like this next time milkis.
It's pretty common knowledge to not open any other threads after a finals before watching a finals. While a [spoiler] would have been nice, why would you be browsing the BW section's threads after the OSL finals and not expect to be spoilered?
Well I was waiting for the VODs to load (I hate buffering) and thought I could read some hype threads/ unrelated threads before watching the games - which has been my VOD-watching routine for 3-4 years now.
It's NOT "common knowledge" that BW section is full of spoilers after a Finals. We have had that convention to name threads with [spoiler] for so long and for good reasons. I'm no stranger here and don't usually fall myself into any unwanted spoiler. But look at this thread name - it's easier to open it without even realizing the risk than you may think.
Usually I wouldn't be bothered to complain or argue back with you, but this match is probably the last SC1 epic finals that we will ever have (not just because of SC2, but also because Flash-Jaedong rivalry is over and chances that there won't be any more great rivalries in SC1). If you love SC1 you will sure understand how I felt when I was spoiled. Even if you think the fault is on my part, it doesn't cost much to be more considerate to your fellow SC1 lovers does it?
Yes, it is common knowledge. I've missed every Flash vs Jaedong finals and have never been spoilered because the first and only thread I check is the small vods thread. I understand that even if a thread title doesn't seem spoilery, there could be spoiling things inside of it, or that even a random post will give away the finals results to me because the poster wasn't thinking about spoiling or not.
You did something silly and should've known better. I'm not saying a [spoiler] tag wouldn't have been nice but you made a mistake as well. I know I'd feel bad if I was spoiled, that's why I intentionally don't do things like scour random BW threads after a finals.
There's no doubt in anyone who knows even a tiny bit about SC:BW's best that FlaSh is top-notch. Why make 687239432 threads about it? Its cool he's been named bonjwa, I'm glad someone finally has been worthy of the title (most successful single season).
There've been like 3 threads made after a player made history. How shocking. The rest were all old and bumped up.
On September 13 2010 14:47 Holgerius wrote: Lol, you are being paranoid; 5 quotes and pretty much only one of those (the last one, maybe the third one as well) show any sign of thinking lowly of JD. XD I mean, pointing out that no one else (no, not even JD) will probably ever reach every final during an entire year+winning dual Starleague titles+winning PL+winning WL+reaching over 4000 Kespa points+reaching 70+ % in all MU's etc etc, like Flash has done now does not mean they think JD is bad.
I don't know if perhaps English is not your first language (its not mine either), but your interpretation of specific wordings is slightly off. Those are all types of ways of saying "nobody can ever do this". If "nobody can ever do this", then its the same as insulting everyone. Don't ever place limitations on people we don't understand. Noone other than MAYBE... MAYBE the coaching staff and other progamers have any idea what makes FlaSh's play so good. We can only poke and prod and make some observations. FlaSh has evolved into this player we see today. That means everyone has the potential to do the same. Its an ignorant blanket-statement no matter how you look at it. There's no arguing against any of this, its just plain fact that the words as they exist in that order inherently have negative connotations to them.
And I do think that the gap is quite large as of right now. Flash's win vs JD in the final was much more dominant than JD's win vs Stork in the semi. And that was JD's ''imba'' MU.
.... did you even watch the WCG 2009? Go rewatch the final match and try saying that again with sincerity. I also might remind you that the entire reason modern ZvP exists is because of JD showing the world the wonders of the 3 base spire into 5 hatch variation(s) build.
I've even seen some hardcore JD fanboys agree that Flash>JD>Everyone else now.
I even agree that FlaSh>Jaedong right now. In no way have I expressed my opinions of FlaSh not being better. The gap just plain isn't that big though. Game 2 and 3 were just plain old BO differences and Game 4 was a bunch of weird insane stuff probably because of the map.
Things might change just like they have always done, and Flash is of course not unbeatable. It's just that since October last year he's 13-6 (including 3 straight Bo5 wins) vs the second best player in the world (who is way above everyone else), and what he has done during this period is completely unprecedented, so is it really that weird that we are fucking excited about it?
Being excited =/= Making 5 clone threads of the same recycled statements.
**EDIT**
There've been like 3 threads made after a player made history. How shocking. The rest were all old and bumped up.
Bumping old threads makes it even worse. Thanks for proving my point even better than I had already explained it.
To the Flash haters, you can't take away that Flash has been the single most dominating player on the scene in the last year. The only player that comes close is obviously Jaedong, and even he could not stop Flash. The Ultimate Weapon is jsut getting started, mark my words.
I just have to say that if Flash's dominance is like a flash, we must be traveling at 0.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999c
On September 13 2010 15:34 Loser777 wrote: I just have to say that if Flash's dominance is like a flash, we must be traveling at 0.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999c
physics joke
Everyone knows that Flash travels at 14c^2 atleast when passing through the MSL.
On September 12 2010 17:29 a176 wrote: I'd take it seriously.
He obviously lacks the entertainment value of past players. But you can't argue with the results.
Bullshit. It's your opinion man, nothing else. Flash is the single most entertaining player to watch imho.
lol again, your opinion.. rax -> cc is his bread and butter.. (yes i know he tries to put some one base pressure occasionally but lets be honest here) hes a beast at what he does, no denying it.
but flash's play is a pretty predictable - solid macro. that is taking into account its predictability there are SO few holes in his play that makes it flipping impossible to beat him even though you know what hes going to do (expand at every opportunity). i read somewhere that when constructing a build flash accounts for EVERY possible opportunity/timing that an opponent might take advantage of - he doesnt prepare for the player, he prepares for the race.
he relies on his macro to win everygame and tries to push all games to lategame where he knows he can simply just out macro his opponent to victory - because hes better lol.
i agree with a176 in that this kind of play is great to learn from, but does lose its entertainment value overtime
what i LOVE about flash is his maphack scans/spidey sense. THAT is so fucking fun to watch haha + Show Spoiler +
like when he didnt see any lings in osl game1 and got suspicious cause his spidey sesne was tingling so he didnt push out with his MM completely denying jaedongs burrowed lings
IMO, these are some of the player i love to watch: jaedong - fun to watch because of his endless aggression. leta - because hes so innovative fantasy - some of the best vulture play in the game/constant need to incorporate valks in his play hahaha boxer - boxer. reach - manlots. bisu - craaaaaazy multitasking/micro ability (probe, shuttle micro for example) stork - storkuuuuuuuuu (where else do we get to see perfect carrier play?) hyuk - for a laugh
On September 13 2010 14:47 Holgerius wrote: Lol, you are being paranoid; 5 quotes and pretty much only one of those (the last one, maybe the third one as well) show any sign of thinking lowly of JD. XD I mean, pointing out that no one else (no, not even JD) will probably ever reach every final during an entire year+winning dual Starleague titles+winning PL+winning WL+reaching over 4000 Kespa points+reaching 70+ % in all MU's etc etc, like Flash has done now does not mean they think JD is bad.
I don't know if perhaps English is not your first language (its not mine either), but your interpretation of specific wordings is slightly off. Those are all types of ways of saying "nobody can ever do this". If "nobody can ever do this", then its the same as insulting everyone. Don't ever place limitations on people we don't understand. Noone other than MAYBE... MAYBE the coaching staff and other progamers have any idea what makes FlaSh's play so good. We can only poke and prod and make some observations. FlaSh has evolved into this player we see today. That means everyone has the potential to do the same. Its an ignorant blanket-statement no matter how you look at it. There's no arguing against any of this, its just plain fact that the words as they exist in that order inherently have negative connotations to them.
And I do think that the gap is quite large as of right now. Flash's win vs JD in the final was much more dominant than JD's win vs Stork in the semi. And that was JD's ''imba'' MU.
.... did you even watch the WCG 2009? Go rewatch the final match and try saying that again with sincerity. I also might remind you that the entire reason modern ZvP exists is because of JD showing the world the wonders of the 3 base spire into 5 hatch variation(s) build.
I've even seen some hardcore JD fanboys agree that Flash>JD>Everyone else now.
I even agree that FlaSh>Jaedong right now. In no way have I expressed my opinions of FlaSh not being better. The gap just plain isn't that big though. Game 2 and 3 were just plain old BO differences and Game 4 was a bunch of weird insane stuff probably because of the map.
Things might change just like they have always done, and Flash is of course not unbeatable. It's just that since October last year he's 13-6 (including 3 straight Bo5 wins) vs the second best player in the world (who is way above everyone else), and what he has done during this period is completely unprecedented, so is it really that weird that we are fucking excited about it?
Being excited =/= Making 5 clone threads of the same recycled statements.
Lol, it's not an insult to say that someone will not be able to do something like that. I guess there is a small theoretical chance that another player could potentially accomplish what Flash has done in 2010, but come on; be realistic. It won't happen. I'm willing to bet money on it.
The gap between Flash and JD is pretty big. Look at the big picture here; 9-3 = 75 % winrate for Flash vs JD in the last 3 Starleague finals. That's a pretty dominating winrate yo.
On September 14 2010 02:40 Holgerius wrote: The gap between Flash and JD is pretty big. Look at the big picture here; 9-3 = 75 % winrate for Flash vs JD in the last 3 Starleague finals. That's a pretty dominating winrate yo.
i agree, AND you gotta take into account that jaedong pretty much walked into both finals uncontested.. just as flash did (well storkuuuuu gave jd a run for his money)
i agree with flash>jd>everyone... and that makes flash god in bw.. as sad as i am to admit it (jd fan here )
On September 13 2010 15:34 Loser777 wrote: I just have to say that if Flash's dominance is like a flash, we must be traveling at 0.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999c
physics joke
Everyone knows that Flash travels at 14c^2 atleast when passing through the MSL.
On September 14 2010 02:40 Holgerius wrote: Lol, it's not an insult to say that someone will not be able to do something like that. I guess there is a small theoretical chance that another player could potentially accomplish what Flash has done in 2010, but come on; be realistic. It won't happen. I'm willing to bet money on it.
The gap between Flash and JD is pretty big. Look at the big picture here; 9-3 = 75 % winrate for Flash vs JD in the last 3 Starleague finals. That's a pretty dominating winrate yo.
Yes it is. There is always a chance that someone can push the envelope and come up with something that really does work with that high a %. Once again, these progamers all have an understanding of the game far deeper than we do, and I'm sure that the higher you climb, the more refined the details of their gameplay based on that understanding. Again, NOBODY is debating that FlaSh had the most amazing season to happen to date. That does not, however, indicate that a turn-around isn't a possibility. Don't ever close your mind to possibilities or you've already lost something, my friend :/
On September 14 2010 02:40 Holgerius wrote: Lol, it's not an insult to say that someone will not be able to do something like that. I guess there is a small theoretical chance that another player could potentially accomplish what Flash has done in 2010, but come on; be realistic. It won't happen. I'm willing to bet money on it.
The gap between Flash and JD is pretty big. Look at the big picture here; 9-3 = 75 % winrate for Flash vs JD in the last 3 Starleague finals. That's a pretty dominating winrate yo.
Yes it is. There is always a chance that someone can push the envelope and come up with something that really does work with that high a %. Once again, these progamers all have an understanding of the game far deeper than we do, and I'm sure that the higher you climb, the more refined the details of their gameplay based on that understanding. Again, NOBODY is debating that FlaSh had the most amazing season to happen to date. That does not, however, indicate that a turn-around isn't a possibility. Don't ever close your mind to possibilities or you've already lost something, my friend :/
Guess we're just fundamentally different you and me; I'm a realist, you're a dreamer.
Flash can certainly be overthrown and beaten, but I guarantee that no one else will ever reach the requirements to be a ''God''.
Flash is unbelievable. I just can't fathom how he's so much better than every other Terran. The games against Kwanro and Action confirmed my theory that he cannot lose.
I wonder who will stop Flash's reign ? I'm gonna bet on a zerg , since historicaly Flash loses to zergs the most in a series , but since Jaedong couldn't do it the other option is Effort since they are the only zergs who actually win games of Flash . Calm , Zero , Action could put up a fight against Flash , but it's unlikely looking at past results . In TvP it looks like Flash is rolling top protoss players without even trying . TvT Flash struggles the most , but in the end he still wins ...
Kind of hard to believe that a little over a year ago Flash was dropping out of leagues to Kwanro and getting knocked off the PR all together. It's amazing how much he's grown in such a short period.
For the last year or so I kept saying to myself that Flash is going to choke and fall back to where he was 2 years ago really soon, it`s beyond impressive that he hasn`t, he actually seems to keep on improving... unbelievable.
On September 14 2010 05:56 TwoToneTerran wrote: Kind of hard to believe that a little over a year ago Flash was dropping out of leagues to Kwanro and getting knocked off the PR all together. It's amazing how much he's grown in such a short period.
Yeah, when normal kids havn't really matured yet, they really try their parents' limits. "How much will it take before they lose their minds?"... Flash, however, is not a usual kid and decided to try the limits of the 14cc instead. Like everybody though, he grew up.
Flash is not boring, he's simply not suicidal. He doesn't make actions which polarize his chances of victory depending on what his opponent does AKA all-ins (at times where they are uncalled for).
On September 14 2010 02:40 Holgerius wrote: Lol, it's not an insult to say that someone will not be able to do something like that. I guess there is a small theoretical chance that another player could potentially accomplish what Flash has done in 2010, but come on; be realistic. It won't happen. I'm willing to bet money on it.
The gap between Flash and JD is pretty big. Look at the big picture here; 9-3 = 75 % winrate for Flash vs JD in the last 3 Starleague finals. That's a pretty dominating winrate yo.
Yes it is. There is always a chance that someone can push the envelope and come up with something that really does work with that high a %. Once again, these progamers all have an understanding of the game far deeper than we do, and I'm sure that the higher you climb, the more refined the details of their gameplay based on that understanding. Again, NOBODY is debating that FlaSh had the most amazing season to happen to date. That does not, however, indicate that a turn-around isn't a possibility. Don't ever close your mind to possibilities or you've already lost something, my friend :/
Not sure how being realistic is insulting in general.
Out of curiosity, what changed in the last year that made Flash start dominating as much as he has been? I mean, he's always been a fantastic player, and has been a clear #1 at other times, just never quite to this degree. What made him go from ~50 - 50 with Jaedong coming into 2009, to a ~70 - 30 record against him since the NATE MSL?
What can I even really say about Flash...he's been the leader of Terran for years now, where would Terran be as a race without him?
His first OSL win in Bacchus (and the GSL), he revolutionized TvP and made Protoss players sweat buckets about going carriers.
During the reign of the six dragons, he was, for the most part, the only Terran who held his ground against the onslaught of Protoss masters. He held the line for the rest of the Terran race to revitalize itself.
Then Swarm Season hit, and ZvZ finals made the BW scene despair. It was Flash who Terrans rallied around and fought back with, using an aggressively fine-tuned bio push strategy that would have Zergs shitting their pants.
Look at the recent MSL/OSL winners these past two years without Flash: 6 Zerg, 2 Protoss, 0 Terran. What shape would Terran be in without him? It's just just subtracting his wins from the overall stats, you'd also have to take away all the innovations he made and other Terran players copied and adapted. Protoss and Zerg players must, deep inside somewhere, curse the day he was born.
Flash is just that kind of player. If he ever switches to SC2, it doesn't matter if he plays Zerg, Protoss, or Terran. The race he plays will be called the 'OP race' within a year, because of how much he'll contribute to the race's metagame. He's a goddamn genius.
On September 12 2010 19:08 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: On a serious note, Flash is the best player of all time, but he has not done as many amazing things as some of the players before him. I wouldn't rank him the greatest player of all time, he's simply not old-school enough, but he's definetly the best I've ever seen. I honestly think Jaedong has done him some favours in recent tournies though, by beating some of the people who have a shot at flash. Flash has likewise helped Jaedong. I hated Boxer when he was in his prime, but he did some of the most amazing things ever done in starcraft. I'll never forget his game against Didi at WCG when he was at 60 supply against I forgot if it was 150 or 200 and still pulled off the win. That was amazing. Nal_Ra inventing hidden proxy DT, Proxy Robo's and scout openings. That was amazing. Flash is amazing too but there's so much innovation that's gone before him.
Sure, he is good... but like in all other "b" crap threads, people seem to forget in what era of BW flash is dominating. So, lets check what was going on in his "domination" era: If i recall, in bw its P>T>Z>P (not much... but still, i believe people think thats true) era of jaedong domination strong players: effort, stork, bisu, flash, jangbi, fantasy, even leta was on a roll back then... and im sure there are more, but those people were almost unbeatable unless they played each other! so he had to be good vs all 3 races, even T that > Z and in zvz (least forgiving matchup) Flash now has... 0 protoss to care about (stork is there, but not that much, he is going on and off all the time)... and every good player except jaedong is slumping atm (even effort before he somehow got to win that title against flash was mediocre at best and losing to everyone and everything)... so... flash has only 1 really good player to worry about, and its TvZ on TvZ favored maps in recent tournaments... and somehow because he is dominating the "low" of bw, he is somehow more deserving to be called best atm, best ever, and other b-word than people who dominated during the time when like 10 other players were peaking, and not slumping...
Im sorry, but flash is nowhere near the "best of all time" in my eyes... and he is nowhere near as deserving to be called b-word as jaedong... let alone to be put in same sentance as nada or boxer
if somehow bisu, stork, jangbi (pvt monster) and others somehow rejuvinate and start playing like back then, and flash still dominates... then all hail the king... but as it is, naaah
On September 14 2010 07:32 Mumei wrote: Out of curiosity, what changed in the last year that made Flash start dominating as much as he has been? I mean, he's always been a fantastic player, and has been a clear #1 at other times, just never quite to this degree. What made him go from ~50 - 50 with Jaedong coming into 2009, to a ~70 - 30 record against him since the NATE MSL?
everyone but jaedong started slumping (and considering P>T... he had easy way with mostly tvt and tvz, with some tvp against one hit P like stats, violet etc), and he stopped 14cc so kwanro didnt destroy him and jaedong seems to become more nervous when playing flash... kinda like flash was when playing jaedong
On September 14 2010 07:32 Mumei wrote: Out of curiosity, what changed in the last year that made Flash start dominating as much as he has been? I mean, he's always been a fantastic player, and has been a clear #1 at other times, just never quite to this degree. What made him go from ~50 - 50 with Jaedong coming into 2009, to a ~70 - 30 record against him since the NATE MSL?
i would say a combination of maps (although not nearly AS big as the other reason) and flash rediscovering his mental edge over jaedong. back in early 08 flash was able to beat JD a lot by being way ahead in the mind games (if you look at most of their games, very few were actually really long drawn-out games, with flash winning with almost pure strategy most of the time). Then flash burned out that summer and JD was able to show his true mental strength and 3-0d flash in the 1st GOM classic. Flash got really good again a year later but was never really ahead in mental games until after he lost to Effort I guess. the triple 14CC in the HDSMSL was just fucking genius (with him knowing that JD would also be trying to play eco-hungry). Ever since that trouncing flash has just been able to stay 1 step ahead of JD in every series since (except WCG korea i guess lol).
On September 12 2010 19:08 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: On a serious note, Flash is the best player of all time, but he has not done as many amazing things as some of the players before him. I wouldn't rank him the greatest player of all time, he's simply not old-school enough, but he's definetly the best I've ever seen. I honestly think Jaedong has done him some favours in recent tournies though, by beating some of the people who have a shot at flash. Flash has likewise helped Jaedong. I hated Boxer when he was in his prime, but he did some of the most amazing things ever done in starcraft. I'll never forget his game against Didi at WCG when he was at 60 supply against I forgot if it was 150 or 200 and still pulled off the win. That was amazing. Nal_Ra inventing hidden proxy DT, Proxy Robo's and scout openings. That was amazing. Flash is amazing too but there's so much innovation that's gone before him.
Sure, he is good... but like in all other "b" crap threads, people seem to forget in what era of BW flash is dominating. So, lets check what was going on in his "domination" era: If i recall, in bw its P>T>Z>P (not much... but still, i believe people think thats true) era of jaedong domination strong players: effort, stork, bisu, flash, jangbi, fantasy, even leta was on a roll back then... and im sure there are more, but those people were almost unbeatable unless they played each other! so he had to be good vs all 3 races, even T that > Z and in zvz (least forgiving matchup) Flash now has... 0 protoss to care about (stork is there, but not that much, he is going on and off all the time)... and every good player except jaedong is slumping atm (even effort before he somehow got to win that title against flash was mediocre at best and losing to everyone and everything)... so... flash has only 1 really good player to worry about, and its TvZ on TvZ favored maps in recent tournaments... and somehow because he is dominating the "low" of bw, he is somehow more deserving to be called best atm, best ever, and other b-word than people who dominated during the time when like 10 other players were peaking, and not slumping...
Im sorry, but flash is nowhere near the "best of all time" in my eyes... and he is nowhere near as deserving to be called b-word as jaedong... let alone to be put in same sentance as nada or boxer
if somehow bisu, stork, jangbi (pvt monster) and others somehow rejuvinate and start playing like back then, and flash still dominates... then all hail the king... but as it is, naaah
On September 14 2010 07:32 Mumei wrote: Out of curiosity, what changed in the last year that made Flash start dominating as much as he has been? I mean, he's always been a fantastic player, and has been a clear #1 at other times, just never quite to this degree. What made him go from ~50 - 50 with Jaedong coming into 2009, to a ~70 - 30 record against him since the NATE MSL?
everyone but jaedong started slumping (and considering P>T... he had easy way with mostly tvt and tvz, with some tvp against one hit P like stats, violet etc), and he stopped 14cc so kwanro didnt destroy him and jaedong seems to become more nervous when playing flash... kinda like flash was when playing jaedong
Flash is still so young. One year ago flash was good, very good indeed. But this year he took another step and is just ahead of everyone now. It's not about someone slumping, or jaedong getting worse (more nervous against flash), flash just got even better this year. That's all.
also let's reverse your argument. You say flash is not goat or b-word or anything because he only has to fight of jaedong. well, let's say it this way, flash dominates even tho he has to face one player, who alot of people would have called goat without flash, almost every time.
On September 12 2010 19:08 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: On a serious note, Flash is the best player of all time, but he has not done as many amazing things as some of the players before him. I wouldn't rank him the greatest player of all time, he's simply not old-school enough, but he's definetly the best I've ever seen. I honestly think Jaedong has done him some favours in recent tournies though, by beating some of the people who have a shot at flash. Flash has likewise helped Jaedong. I hated Boxer when he was in his prime, but he did some of the most amazing things ever done in starcraft. I'll never forget his game against Didi at WCG when he was at 60 supply against I forgot if it was 150 or 200 and still pulled off the win. That was amazing. Nal_Ra inventing hidden proxy DT, Proxy Robo's and scout openings. That was amazing. Flash is amazing too but there's so much innovation that's gone before him.
Sure, he is good... but like in all other "b" crap threads, people seem to forget in what era of BW flash is dominating. So, lets check what was going on in his "domination" era: If i recall, in bw its P>T>Z>P (not much... but still, i believe people think thats true) era of jaedong domination strong players: effort, stork, bisu, flash, jangbi, fantasy, even leta was on a roll back then... and im sure there are more, but those people were almost unbeatable unless they played each other! so he had to be good vs all 3 races, even T that > Z and in zvz (least forgiving matchup) Flash now has... 0 protoss to care about (stork is there, but not that much, he is going on and off all the time)... and every good player except jaedong is slumping atm (even effort before he somehow got to win that title against flash was mediocre at best and losing to everyone and everything)... so... flash has only 1 really good player to worry about, and its TvZ on TvZ favored maps in recent tournaments... and somehow because he is dominating the "low" of bw, he is somehow more deserving to be called best atm, best ever, and other b-word than people who dominated during the time when like 10 other players were peaking, and not slumping...
Im sorry, but flash is nowhere near the "best of all time" in my eyes... and he is nowhere near as deserving to be called b-word as jaedong... let alone to be put in same sentance as nada or boxer
if somehow bisu, stork, jangbi (pvt monster) and others somehow rejuvinate and start playing like back then, and flash still dominates... then all hail the king... but as it is, naaah
On September 14 2010 07:32 Mumei wrote: Out of curiosity, what changed in the last year that made Flash start dominating as much as he has been? I mean, he's always been a fantastic player, and has been a clear #1 at other times, just never quite to this degree. What made him go from ~50 - 50 with Jaedong coming into 2009, to a ~70 - 30 record against him since the NATE MSL?
everyone but jaedong started slumping (and considering P>T... he had easy way with mostly tvt and tvz, with some tvp against one hit P like stats, violet etc), and he stopped 14cc so kwanro didnt destroy him and jaedong seems to become more nervous when playing flash... kinda like flash was when playing jaedong
You're saying that people aren't as good as compared to when Jaedong was dominating so Flash isn't really good? Dominating means that other people are no longer competitors... Flash is dominating so much now that other players seem to be on another tier completely. The reason Flash is so good now is BECAUSE his games vs P seem so ONE-SIDED... it's not that others have gotten worse, he's gotten BETTER
On September 12 2010 19:08 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: On a serious note, Flash is the best player of all time, but he has not done as many amazing things as some of the players before him. I wouldn't rank him the greatest player of all time, he's simply not old-school enough, but he's definetly the best I've ever seen. I honestly think Jaedong has done him some favours in recent tournies though, by beating some of the people who have a shot at flash. Flash has likewise helped Jaedong. I hated Boxer when he was in his prime, but he did some of the most amazing things ever done in starcraft. I'll never forget his game against Didi at WCG when he was at 60 supply against I forgot if it was 150 or 200 and still pulled off the win. That was amazing. Nal_Ra inventing hidden proxy DT, Proxy Robo's and scout openings. That was amazing. Flash is amazing too but there's so much innovation that's gone before him.
Sure, he is good... but like in all other "b" crap threads, people seem to forget in what era of BW flash is dominating. So, lets check what was going on in his "domination" era: If i recall, in bw its P>T>Z>P (not much... but still, i believe people think thats true) era of jaedong domination strong players: effort, stork, bisu, flash, jangbi, fantasy, even leta was on a roll back then... and im sure there are more, but those people were almost unbeatable unless they played each other! so he had to be good vs all 3 races, even T that > Z and in zvz (least forgiving matchup) Flash now has... 0 protoss to care about (stork is there, but not that much, he is going on and off all the time)... and every good player except jaedong is slumping atm (even effort before he somehow got to win that title against flash was mediocre at best and losing to everyone and everything)... so... flash has only 1 really good player to worry about, and its TvZ on TvZ favored maps in recent tournaments... and somehow because he is dominating the "low" of bw, he is somehow more deserving to be called best atm, best ever, and other b-word than people who dominated during the time when like 10 other players were peaking, and not slumping...
Im sorry, but flash is nowhere near the "best of all time" in my eyes... and he is nowhere near as deserving to be called b-word as jaedong... let alone to be put in same sentance as nada or boxer
if somehow bisu, stork, jangbi (pvt monster) and others somehow rejuvinate and start playing like back then, and flash still dominates... then all hail the king... but as it is, naaah
On September 14 2010 07:32 Mumei wrote: Out of curiosity, what changed in the last year that made Flash start dominating as much as he has been? I mean, he's always been a fantastic player, and has been a clear #1 at other times, just never quite to this degree. What made him go from ~50 - 50 with Jaedong coming into 2009, to a ~70 - 30 record against him since the NATE MSL?
everyone but jaedong started slumping (and considering P>T... he had easy way with mostly tvt and tvz, with some tvp against one hit P like stats, violet etc), and he stopped 14cc so kwanro didnt destroy him and jaedong seems to become more nervous when playing flash... kinda like flash was when playing jaedong
You're saying that people aren't as good as compared to when Jaedong was dominating so Flash isn't really good? Dominating means that other people are no longer competitors... Flash is dominating so much now that other players seem to be on another tier completely. The reason Flash is so good now is BECAUSE his games vs P seem so ONE-SIDED... it's not that others have gotten worse, he's gotten BETTER
I completly agree with that statement. The other players would start doing better again without flash he's just been able to understand so well that other players can't keep up wiht him
On September 12 2010 19:08 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: On a serious note, Flash is the best player of all time, but he has not done as many amazing things as some of the players before him. I wouldn't rank him the greatest player of all time, he's simply not old-school enough, but he's definetly the best I've ever seen. I honestly think Jaedong has done him some favours in recent tournies though, by beating some of the people who have a shot at flash. Flash has likewise helped Jaedong. I hated Boxer when he was in his prime, but he did some of the most amazing things ever done in starcraft. I'll never forget his game against Didi at WCG when he was at 60 supply against I forgot if it was 150 or 200 and still pulled off the win. That was amazing. Nal_Ra inventing hidden proxy DT, Proxy Robo's and scout openings. That was amazing. Flash is amazing too but there's so much innovation that's gone before him.
Sure, he is good... but like in all other "b" crap threads, people seem to forget in what era of BW flash is dominating. So, lets check what was going on in his "domination" era: If i recall, in bw its P>T>Z>P (not much... but still, i believe people think thats true) era of jaedong domination strong players: effort, stork, bisu, flash, jangbi, fantasy, even leta was on a roll back then... and im sure there are more, but those people were almost unbeatable unless they played each other! so he had to be good vs all 3 races, even T that > Z and in zvz (least forgiving matchup) Flash now has... 0 protoss to care about (stork is there, but not that much, he is going on and off all the time)... and every good player except jaedong is slumping atm (even effort before he somehow got to win that title against flash was mediocre at best and losing to everyone and everything)... so... flash has only 1 really good player to worry about, and its TvZ on TvZ favored maps in recent tournaments... and somehow because he is dominating the "low" of bw, he is somehow more deserving to be called best atm, best ever, and other b-word than people who dominated during the time when like 10 other players were peaking, and not slumping...
Im sorry, but flash is nowhere near the "best of all time" in my eyes... and he is nowhere near as deserving to be called b-word as jaedong... let alone to be put in same sentance as nada or boxer
if somehow bisu, stork, jangbi (pvt monster) and others somehow rejuvinate and start playing like back then, and flash still dominates... then all hail the king... but as it is, naaah
On September 14 2010 07:32 Mumei wrote: Out of curiosity, what changed in the last year that made Flash start dominating as much as he has been? I mean, he's always been a fantastic player, and has been a clear #1 at other times, just never quite to this degree. What made him go from ~50 - 50 with Jaedong coming into 2009, to a ~70 - 30 record against him since the NATE MSL?
everyone but jaedong started slumping (and considering P>T... he had easy way with mostly tvt and tvz, with some tvp against one hit P like stats, violet etc), and he stopped 14cc so kwanro didnt destroy him and jaedong seems to become more nervous when playing flash... kinda like flash was when playing jaedong
oh so I guess Proleague MVP, winning Proleague for the first time in team's history, Winner's League MVP, OSL & MSL dual title winner, 5 starleague titles, golden mouse, +70% in all MU's for the season, etc. doesn't qualify you for even "Bonjwa"... while JD qualifies somehow. hmm great logic.
and seriously? everyone else is doing FINE. The only problem is that Flash and JD are doing so unbelievably well that everyone else seems fail in comparison. Sure, some people are slumping, but some people will ALWAYS be slumping. There can never be a season without someone slumping.
I wish Flash would be utterly crushed by Bisu or a new protoss player and not only revive the 6 dragons but create a new Protoss group called BlackThunder! Bisu will be the head, stork, best, jangbi, free, and kal will dominate the whole proscene. Making Protoss seem imba for once in the history of progaming. Bisu will get plantinum mouse AND keyboard trophy which you get when you win 5 msls and 5 osls, stork will get silver mouse lol, and we will see endless amount of PvP finals. zerg and terran will cower at the sound of BlackThunder. Protoss will be considered so imba that sc becomes broken, and they have separate leagues for protoss by themselves. so Zerg and Terran will face off, while PvP plays go on in a different league. The last survivor of the zvt zvz and tvt league, will be honored to have a chance to fight the weakest Protoss of the league. Then bw fans will finally realize the true potential that Protoss had along, and will remember Protoss as the race that finally got its glory.
On September 19 2010 06:52 Raz0r wrote: I wish Flash would be utterly crushed by Bisu or a new protoss player and not only revive the 6 dragons but create a new Protoss group called BlackThunder! Bisu will be the head, stork, best, jangbi, free, and kal will dominate the whole proscene. Making Protoss seem imba for once in the history of progaming. Bisu will get plantinum mouse, stork will get silver mouse lol, and we will see endless amount of PvP finals. zerg and terran will cower at the sound of BlackThunder. Protoss will be considered so imba that sc becomes broken, and they have separate leagues for protoss by themselves. so Zerg and Terran will face off, while PvP plays go on in a different league. The last survivor of the zvt zvz and tvt league, will be honored to have a chance to fight the weakest Protoss of the league. Then bw fans will finally realize the true potential that Protoss had along, and will remember Protoss as the race that finally got its glory.
On September 12 2010 19:08 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: On a serious note, Flash is the best player of all time, but he has not done as many amazing things as some of the players before him. I wouldn't rank him the greatest player of all time, he's simply not old-school enough, but he's definetly the best I've ever seen. I honestly think Jaedong has done him some favours in recent tournies though, by beating some of the people who have a shot at flash. Flash has likewise helped Jaedong. I hated Boxer when he was in his prime, but he did some of the most amazing things ever done in starcraft. I'll never forget his game against Didi at WCG when he was at 60 supply against I forgot if it was 150 or 200 and still pulled off the win. That was amazing. Nal_Ra inventing hidden proxy DT, Proxy Robo's and scout openings. That was amazing. Flash is amazing too but there's so much innovation that's gone before him.
Flash's innovations are much more subtle. The broad strokes other players have developed in the past are easy to recognize and discover. Flash's brilliance lies in the perfectly calculated economic advantages he creates for himself. Other players that have also been successful like Boxer simply are not capable of making these same innovations, while also maintaining top level execution. What you call amazing are simply emotional highlights for you.
On September 19 2010 04:46 genai wrote: Flash now has... 0 protoss to care about (stork is there, but not that much, he is going on and off all the time)... and every good player except jaedong is slumping atm (even effort before he somehow got to win that title against flash was mediocre at best and losing to everyone and everything)... so... flash has only 1 really good player to worry about, and its TvZ on TvZ favored maps in recent tournaments... and somehow because he is dominating the "low" of bw, he is somehow more deserving to be called best atm, best ever, and other b-word than people who dominated during the time when like 10 other players were peaking, and not slumping...
Im sorry, but flash is nowhere near the "best of all time" in my eyes... and he is nowhere near as deserving to be called b-word as jaedong... let alone to be put in same sentance as nada or boxer.
If Flash did not exist Jaedong would have at a minimum 6 titles right now, quite likely 7 and he's so good it's not even a huge stretch to suggest he'd have won all three and got to 8. Yet Flash is DOMINATING that player who would have been hailed as the greatest of all time, broken NaDa's record, broken the records for OSL and MSL titles etc.
Keep in mind that many of the bonjwas played during eras when there weren't many Bo5s, MSL was double elimination Bo3 except the finals etc. Jaedong was the best Bo5 player ever prior to the Hana Daetoo MSL finals, hell he may well still be when you consider his overall stats and his LWWWs. Yet Flash has beaten him three times in a row in Bo5 finals. Give credit where credit's due.
I love Flash and I love Jaedong that's why I can truly appreciate how incredible what Flash has done is.
On September 19 2010 06:52 Raz0r wrote: I wish Flash would be utterly crushed by Bisu or a new protoss player and not only revive the 6 dragons but create a new Protoss group called BlackThunder! Bisu will be the head, stork, best, jangbi, free, and kal will dominate the whole proscene. Making Protoss seem imba for once in the history of progaming. Bisu will get plantinum mouse, stork will get silver mouse lol, and we will see endless amount of PvP finals. zerg and terran will cower at the sound of BlackThunder. Protoss will be considered so imba that sc becomes broken, and they have separate leagues for protoss by themselves. so Zerg and Terran will face off, while PvP plays go on in a different league. The last survivor of the zvt zvz and tvt league, will be honored to have a chance to fight the weakest Protoss of the league. Then bw fans will finally realize the true potential that Protoss had along, and will remember Protoss as the race that finally got its glory.
i love how specific the qualifications for the "god line" are. Though, I have to argue that proleague is more of a team effort than a single-entity effort (though the winner's league still stands).
Though Flash is awesome for becoming a bonjwa and having tons of success this year, it really makes me sad to remember that there hasn't been a protoss bonjwa at all yet, nor will there ever be one. (dammit Protosses, Step up your game!) >.<
and somehow because he is dominating the "low" of bw, he is somehow more deserving to be called best atm, best ever, and other b-word than people who dominated during the time when like 10 other players were peaking, and not slumping...
Im sorry, but flash is nowhere near the "best of all time" in my eyes... and he is nowhere near as deserving to be called b-word as jaedong... let alone to be put in same sentance as nada or boxer
This argument is weak because if you were to pull out "the low" you would see stats and games that are on the contrary. Also flash beat jaedong enough times to put the second argument to sleep.
IMHO the problem with flash to me is the charisma. Hes probably the best of all time, but boxer, nada, etc... have more charisma, more legendary aura, more.... more... I dunno, but flash lacks something out the game. A comparison..
Messi: Best 2009-2010 soccer player but no charisma at all. Zidane: Best 1998-2001 soccer player but super charisma.
On October 05 2010 03:13 Buhlbaid wrote: IMHO the problem with flash to me is the charisma. Hes probably the best of all time, but boxer, nada, etc... have more charisma, more legendary aura, more.... more... I dunno, but flash lacks something out the game. A comparison..
Messi: Best 2009-2010 soccer player but no charisma at all. Zidane: Best 1998-2001 soccer player but super charisma.
Does this have to do with flash showing not much emotion when he wins? I actually like him for his game play and stats
On October 05 2010 03:13 Buhlbaid wrote: IMHO the problem with flash to me is the charisma. Hes probably the best of all time, but boxer, nada, etc... have more charisma, more legendary aura, more.... more... I dunno, but flash lacks something out the game. A comparison..
Messi: Best 2009-2010 soccer player but no charisma at all. Zidane: Best 1998-2001 soccer player but super charisma.
Does this have to do with flash showing not much emotion when he wins? I actually like him for his game play and stats
On October 05 2010 03:13 Buhlbaid wrote: IMHO the problem with flash to me is the charisma. Hes probably the best of all time, but boxer, nada, etc... have more charisma, more legendary aura, more.... more... I dunno, but flash lacks something out the game. A comparison..
Messi: Best 2009-2010 soccer player but no charisma at all. Zidane: Best 1998-2001 soccer player but super charisma.
Does this have to do with flash showing not much emotion when he wins? I actually like him for his game play and stats
On September 12 2010 19:08 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: Flash is amazing too but there's so much innovation that's gone before him.
He invented many of his own builds, including a double armory build which single-handedly brought the era of the 6 dragons to an end. And this was when he was just starting to get big. Case in point.
On September 19 2010 04:46 genai wrote: Sure, he is good... but like in all other "b" crap threads, people seem to forget in what era of BW flash is dominating. So, lets check what was going on in his "domination" era: If i recall, in bw its P>T>Z>P (not much... but still, i believe people think thats true) era of jaedong domination strong players: effort, stork, bisu, flash, jangbi, fantasy, even leta was on a roll back then... and im sure there are more, but those people were almost unbeatable unless they played each other! so he had to be good vs all 3 races, even T that > Z and in zvz (least forgiving matchup) Flash now has... 0 protoss to care about (stork is there, but not that much, he is going on and off all the time)... and every good player except jaedong is slumping atm (even effort before he somehow got to win that title against flash was mediocre at best and losing to everyone and everything)... so... flash has only 1 really good player to worry about, and its TvZ on TvZ favored maps in recent tournaments... and somehow because he is dominating the "low" of bw, he is somehow more deserving to be called best atm, best ever, and other b-word than people who dominated during the time when like 10 other players were peaking, and not slumping...
Im sorry, but flash is nowhere near the "best of all time" in my eyes... and he is nowhere near as deserving to be called b-word as jaedong... let alone to be put in same sentance as nada or boxer
if somehow bisu, stork, jangbi (pvt monster) and others somehow rejuvinate and start playing like back then, and flash still dominates... then all hail the king... but as it is, naaah
Your point is kind of valid. The strongest era of BW overall was from sometime in 2007 to late 2009. Jaedong hasn't been playing his best for whatever reasons since the Nate MSL but manages to still make finals because the overall competition is just not as difficult as 12 months ago. Other top players Stork and especially Bisu have slumped terribly. Players like effort, baby, leta,, zero and kal have not been consistent enough to make this BW era a "tough" era.
However with that said that doesn't mean that Flash isn't Bonjwa. It doesn't matter how tough the era is if you dominate it completely you should be regarded as Bonjwa. History will always show that Flash dominated while Jaedong, Bisu and Stork amongst others were still active. Whether they were playing their best or not will not matter in the record books.
On September 12 2010 19:08 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: Flash is amazing too but there's so much innovation that's gone before him.
He invented many of his own builds, including a double armory build which single-handedly brought the era of the 6 dragons to an end. And this was when he was just starting to get big. Case in point.
Yep. People forget how big carriers used to be in PvT. If protoss ever got a mid game lead there was something like a >70% chance that they'd switch to carriers. After Flash established his fast upgrade build that came to an end: it is now extremely rare to see a carrier switch in PvT.
On September 12 2010 19:08 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: Flash is amazing too but there's so much innovation that's gone before him.
He invented many of his own builds, including a double armory build which single-handedly brought the era of the 6 dragons to an end. And this was when he was just starting to get big. Case in point.
Erm, just wanted to point out that Flash was using the double armory build WAYYYYY before the "era of the 6 dragons" was in full effect.
On September 12 2010 19:08 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: Flash is amazing too but there's so much innovation that's gone before him.
He invented many of his own builds, including a double armory build which single-handedly brought the era of the 6 dragons to an end. And this was when he was just starting to get big. Case in point.
Yep. People forget how big carriers used to be in PvT. If protoss ever got a mid game lead there was something like a >70% chance that they'd switch to carriers. After Flash established his fast upgrade build that came to an end: it is now extremely rare to see a carrier switch in PvT.
Maps have more to do with that than the double armory build, but that does contribute to the lack of carrier in current pro SC
On September 12 2010 16:23 seRapH wrote: well i'm assuming this godline is still below NADA
This Nada's given noobies(aka gosus like jaedong and flash) a 4 year period to try to catch up to him in godliness, and no one has. That ought to be something to consider about god status. Oh and you don't see any "Flash's Body" or "Jaedong's Body" threads do you?
On September 12 2010 19:08 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: Flash is amazing too but there's so much innovation that's gone before him.
He invented many of his own builds, including a double armory build which single-handedly brought the era of the 6 dragons to an end. And this was when he was just starting to get big. Case in point.
Yep. People forget how big carriers used to be in PvT. If protoss ever got a mid game lead there was something like a >70% chance that they'd switch to carriers. After Flash established his fast upgrade build that came to an end: it is now extremely rare to see a carrier switch in PvT.
Maps have more to do with that than the double armory build, but that does contribute to the lack of carrier in current pro SC
Not true. Flash really destroyed the carrier switch as a viable strategy in a very short amount of time, before there was time for a big map switch. And there have been many complete map switches since then and carriers have not come back, despite them always being popular up to 2008.
On September 12 2010 16:23 seRapH wrote: well i'm assuming this godline is still below NADA
This Nada's given noobies(aka gosus like jaedong and flash) a 4 year period to try to catch up to him in godliness, and no one has. That ought to be something to consider about god status. Oh and you don't see any "Flash's Body" or "Jaedong's Body" threads do you?
you also dont see nada breaking 2400 and of course the whole "i saved a life" while nada has "i have bumps"
Come on. everybody knows no one has ever played at the level of Flash before. It's ridicilous to even argue about this. Flash has no charisma? he is awesome. irl hero, saving lives and shit. He is not innovative? what about all the builds he came up with?
On September 12 2010 16:23 seRapH wrote: well i'm assuming this godline is still below NADA
This Nada's given noobies(aka gosus like jaedong and flash) a 4 year period to try to catch up to him in godliness, and no one has. That ought to be something to consider about god status. Oh and you don't see any "Flash's Body" or "Jaedong's Body" threads do you?
Compare Nada's career duration to Flash. Now compare the competition he faced.
On September 12 2010 16:23 seRapH wrote: well i'm assuming this godline is still below NADA
This Nada's given noobies(aka gosus like jaedong and flash) a 4 year period to try to catch up to him in godliness, and no one has. That ought to be something to consider about god status. Oh and you don't see any "Flash's Body" or "Jaedong's Body" threads do you?
you also dont see nada breaking 2400 and of course the whole "i saved a life" while nada has "i have bumps"
Nada has been part of the make a wish foundation since his father's death, and is also very active is community events.
On October 05 2010 03:13 Buhlbaid wrote: IMHO the problem with flash to me is the charisma. Hes probably the best of all time, but boxer, nada, etc... have more charisma, more legendary aura, more.... more... I dunno, but flash lacks something out the game. A comparison..
Messi: Best 2009-2010 soccer player but no charisma at all. Zidane: Best 1998-2001 soccer player but super charisma.
For all his results he's only a kid who just turned 18. It's no surprise he doesn't have the aura of old legends.
No charisma is probably a bit unfair though. He had a few nice interviews at the start of the season where he talked about his frustration with his team during the 2009 Winners' League and his struggle with overconfidence after becoming the youngest starleague winner. I guess just seeing him win game after game can be boring but he actually has a pretty interesting story.
For those sick of the B-word and arguing about how dominant different players were in different eras. I don't like elo as a way to compare players in different eras. A good metric in my opinion is titles and finals reached. A short classification system:
Dominance Level 0: (3+ finals within a year, or 2+ finals within a year, winning 1+) YellOw, Reach, ChoJJa, Kingdom, Stork
Dominance Level 1: (3+ finals within a year, winning 2+) Nal_rA, July, Bisu, Jaedong
On October 05 2010 03:13 Buhlbaid wrote: IMHO the problem with flash to me is the charisma. Hes probably the best of all time, but boxer, nada, etc... have more charisma, more legendary aura, more.... more... I dunno, but flash lacks something out the game. A comparison..
Messi: Best 2009-2010 soccer player but no charisma at all. Zidane: Best 1998-2001 soccer player but super charisma.
For all his results he's only a kid who just turned 18. It's no surprise he doesn't have the aura of old legends.
No charisma is probably a bit unfair though. He had a few nice interviews at the start of the season where he talked about his frustration with his team during the 2009 Winners' League and his struggle with overconfidence after becoming the youngest starleague winner. I guess just seeing him win game after game can be boring but he actually has a pretty interesting story.
if you want charisma you can od on hyungjoon. i want forward raxes, unstoppable timimg pushes, and 3/3 steamrollers.
You can add go to LA, win the WCG finals, then save the runner up from drowning :D Too bad nobody made a video of Flash saving Kal, but I'm sure that Flash was walking on the water.
Pretty sure you're not allowed to use red text. Also don't get too excited because Flash destroyed BeSt the last time they played a BoX, just like he does to every Protoss.
On October 16 2010 21:10 Sclol wrote: Does toss have the same problem in sc1 as in sc2? i mean i in sc2 i feel like toss simply never gets talked about
SC1 toss has won the least tournaments, which might very well be improved upon this season. The PvT games we have seen look promising.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Milkis/T6RQa2LTsavOmdkKb7g6flIE5Iqg.jpg)
Priceless achievement in 2010.
![[image loading]](http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6619/98999388.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://b.imagehost.org/t/0710/flash.jpg)
