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On August 31 2010 13:51 Crisium wrote:Make a lot of money, and pay  Stork, Bisu,  Jaedong, and  Flash a lot of cash to play each other on the Slowest setting. It'll be close enough...
I concur. That's actually really good way to approximate OP theoretical problem in practice. I think they might be convinced to do it for free if the matches would've been given enough attention.
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On August 31 2010 21:08 jetpower wrote:I concur. That's actually really good way to approximate OP theoretical problem in practice. I think they might be convinced to do it for free if the matches would've been given enough attention.
It would theoretically take several hours per match, I don't know that they would would have the patience for a long macro game on slowest, that even when heavily micro'd would still leave you with nothing to do for long stretches of time..
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even with 100000 apm you cant play perfect
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Terran or Zerg probably although Toss would also be very strong.. it's really impossible to say. but lurker attack dodging perfect micro and macro I mean .. don't know how anyone could lose cause whenever I think about an awesome unit I just think of something that would make that one suck ^^ so I mean would be fun to see but impossible to know before hand 
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Well I can't really tell without knowing the army compositions. And even with it it's hard to guess.
A few notes though.
- open plains favor melee
- infinite range favors higher range units
- infinite micro favors ranged units
- fast unit attack animation favors higher micro
- Fast unit acceleration favors higher micro
It's rather opinionated since the query is untestable. Even four progamers playing a team melee game against four other progamers would yield mistakes. It's the closest we'd get to testing it.
If you'd like, perhaps you should get 7 guys to go on at the same time you do and get them all to try to micro units.
edit: the poll on page 2 is more meaningful than the rest of the thread. At least it clearly tells our perceptions.
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I remember reading somewhere that the Korean pros actually theorycrafted this awhile back and they agreed that Zerg would be the strongest race with perfect macro/micro.
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Canada2480 Posts
On August 31 2010 13:51 Crisium wrote:Make a lot of money, and pay Stork, Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash a lot of cash to play each other on the Slowest setting. It'll be close enough...
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On August 31 2010 06:47 Nal_rAwr wrote:sigh... threads these days add a poll mang Poll: Strongest BW RaceTerran (41) 73% Zerg (9) 16% Protoss (6) 11% 56 total votes Your vote: Strongest BW Race (Vote): Zerg
(Vote): Terran
(Vote): Protoss
I was going to add a poll. But without a poll it forces people to reply and actually debate the topic which is what I wanted. Also many people are complaining about how unrealistic it sounds, I'm full aware of the fact its unrealistic and perfect against perfect could quite possibly cancel each other out. But it forces everyone to think and its entertaining to see everyones argument as to which would be best.
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P.s I've enjoyed everyones thoughts and ideas and appreciated the effort some people have put into it. Keep it up!
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On August 31 2010 13:51 Crisium wrote:Make a lot of money, and pay Stork, Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash a lot of cash to play each other on the Slowest setting. It'll be close enough...
This. It is probably the closest we can get to 'perfect' play..
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yeah team melee on slowest would get you pretty dam close to optimal play
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I'm full aware of the fact its unrealistic and perfect against perfect could quite possibly cancel each other out. But it forces everyone to think and its entertaining to see everyones argument as to which would be best.
Yes it forces people to think but in an unrealistic manner. Player opinions would be radically different if infinite apm didn't render mines useless, made optic flare against toss overwhelmingly viable and such other silly things that don't happen with human limitations. Your question would've been better off without that condition pervading the logic needed to answer the question.
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I'd have to say Zerg, since the only reason mutas stop being so damn good is you can only control 11 at a time and eventually things like irradiate come out. If you could have infinite mutas microed perfectly it'd be almost impossible for a P or T to ever start a game without being way behind. Irradiate would be largely useless and perfect micro could put mutas in a complete circle around any splash AA unit while also hitting scourge perfectly.
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On September 01 2010 00:59 mutantmagnet wrote:Show nested quote + I'm full aware of the fact its unrealistic and perfect against perfect could quite possibly cancel each other out. But it forces everyone to think and its entertaining to see everyones argument as to which would be best. Yes it forces people to think but in an unrealistic manner. Player opinions would be radically different if infinite apm didn't render mines useless, made optic flare against toss overwhelmingly viable and such other silly things that don't happen with human limitations. Your question would've been better off without that condition pervading the logic needed to answer the question.
You use big words.. ^^;;
Anyway I don't know if people can't read or if they are just so pumped to bash the fact its unrealistic like their imagination got stolen along with their virginity at 6yrs old. O_O;;
Anyway directly under the fantasy questions is one that should state under todays limitations and how we play what do you believe the best is. If you have an issue with using your imagination and being bland and boring then answer the second question.
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On August 31 2010 03:55 SubtleArt wrote:T>Z Z>P P>T. Historically TvZ is the most imbalanced (53%), while PvT is the most balanced (only 51.6%). Also Terrans have won the most starleague titles, and have had the most dominant players (boxer, Oov, Nada, and Flash) while Zerg has only had Savior and Jaedong, and protoss Bisu and maybe Reach (nal_RA was too inconsistent to be up there with the other bonjwas). Therefore I'd say Terran's the strongest; they own their favored matchup harder (tvz) and they suck at their unfavored matchup less (tvp) Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 03:39 blagoonga123 wrote:
ZvT: Lurkers would now be completely useless, but mutas would be somewhat impossible to stop as T, so I think Zerg would win this matchup.
ZvP: I don't know much how this matchup would be affected. I suppose storms would always be perfect, but they'd be mostly perfectly dodged as well. I think zerg would still have the upper hand because they'd be able so spread their units so well and have perfect flanks every time.
PvT: Probably terran. They'd have the same smartcasting tanks as in SC2, so the tanks would be incredibly strong against the protoss army. Mass reaver/storm drops would be sick, but terran would be able to perfectly run his scvs away every time still. How about being realistic instead of dreaming up these completely improbable scenarios. Even with eprfect micro mutas would be pretty useless after vessels and a certain number of upgrade marines. And no, perfect splitting and individual muta control isn't gonna mean anything because the mutas would all have to be really close together, if not totally stacked, to be able to all shoot the same marine at the same time before the medics heal him Also mass reaver and storm drop? wtf? No amount of perfect play is gonna make your tech rushes any less all in or make your workers gather resources faster..... Btw OP what's the point of imagining a 1000000000 APM player? It's physically impossible to reach that, or anything remotely close to it. How about imagining real players, that would make the discussion slightly more useful and slightly less stupid.
Except you could then split your mutas into groups and harass all over the place?
And just because this discussion doesn't adhere to your own arbitrary aesthetic doesn't mean it's a "stupid" discussion. Seriously, how exactly is discussing real players any more or less "useful" than having a fun fluff discussion? Do you even know how to have fun? Do you have any imagination? It must be really sad to be you :/ Poor dude.
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Historically TvZ is the most imbalanced (53%), while PvT is the most balanced (only 51.6%)
huh wtf do you even read or think about what you write down? 
Poeple throwing around so easily the imbalance term these days makes me sick
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On August 31 2010 21:23 exeexe wrote:
even with 100000 apm you cant play perfect
And this is relevant in which way to a discussion on perfect play at theoretical infinite APM?
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Historically, Protoss has been known as the weakest of all 3, and having the least ammount of Protoss winning starleagues, etc. However, I think with the infinite APM and perfect play, Protoss may actually be the strongest (assuming we're talking about 200/200 full upgrades and perfect unit composition). I think a 200/200 battle on an open field vs Z or T, P would come out on top with stasis on tanks, storms, disrupt, etc. and I imagine a maxed out army of P would run through Z. With that said, though, I think that Zerg would have an advantage in early/mid game vs P
So, I think it would be P, then Z, then T, which is hilarious because Historically in real play, it has been T>Z>P, which is the opposite. I think that Protoss players still have a ways to go in terms of mastering the game - I think Flash has damn near perfected usage of Terran, and same goes for Jaedong with zerg, and I don't feel like any 1 protoss has reached the full potential of using P. and I'm a protoss player, so I'm not hatin'
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On August 31 2010 22:20 fearus wrote:
I remember reading somewhere that the Korean pros actually theorycrafted this awhile back and they agreed that Zerg would be the strongest race with perfect macro/micro.
I remember and agree with this as well.
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On September 01 2010 04:52 Chaos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 22:20 fearus wrote:
I remember reading somewhere that the Korean pros actually theorycrafted this awhile back and they agreed that Zerg would be the strongest race with perfect macro/micro. I remember and agree with this as well. Yeah, July mentioned it:
"A long time ago, progamers said that if there were a super-computer that could perform perfect micro, Zerg would be the strongest race."
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EPT
