I'm writing this topic about something I've been thinking about for years but never really thought to get others opinions. Now I bring it to you my fellow TL.net fam. I'm hoping you can give me your input and put my mind at rest.
The Question; What is starcrafts strongest race? Now I realize this question has been asked before, the catch to this is what do you think starcrafts strongest race is fully maxed out, fully upgraded and in the hands of someone who can use everything the race has to offer. Basically I'm asking you to think of a user with 1000000 APM that can use every spell, move every unit instantly.
So, would it be
Protoss: with their wide use of spells and strong units, dark archons for maelstrom and feedback, reavers for splash damage. Arbs for stasis, and hts for storm. Archons for splash. Etc.
Terran: with their strong ground units and ability to attack from afar. Tanks for splash, vults for mines. Vessels to irradiate or defense matrix, gols for anti air defense, medics to restore. Etc.
Zerg; with their massing qualities and quick unit attack speed. Cracklings for speedy attacks, untralisks for bulk and power. Defilers for plague and dark swarm, queens to ensnare. Etc etc.
I look forward to hearing everyones input and I'd love to get this one off the ground and see what everyone thinks.
Now on the flipside of this I realize noone actually has the apm to use each race to its full potential, with that being said what do you believe is the best race under the conditions we play. And if you take the best player in the world and he can play each race equally. Which would end up on top?
Look forward to hearing your guys opinions.
For the fictional part of this question I believe protoss would come out on top. With the ability to immobilize a zerg or terran army via maelstrom or stasis and then follow up with reavers and storm as well as the support from other protoss units I don't think there is much a zerg or terran player could do to stop it. *remember that the race can be used to its full potential and there is no time between spells and such. Everything can happen instantaneously.
On August 31 2010 03:14 yeti wrote: I would say zerg since 1000000 amp = perfect macro (for the race with the hardest macro-mechanic)
note: A 100000 amp user would be a computer. So a scientific test could be made by pitting comps against each other.
You mean APM right?
Well its really hard to say, at the highest state, Protoss have the most spells with high APM, they can cast SOO many things at once (Maelstrom, Psi Storm, D-Web, Stasis) and lowest level, PERFECT Probe micro against SCVs/Drones and even more GODLY than Bisu's harassment with units dropped in shuttles everywhere in the map. Pretty hard to stop that.
True but we are talking about two players going against each other already maxed out. And true but I doubt that would ever happen. It would certainly be neat to watch though. In reply to yeti.
On August 31 2010 03:21 Ocular wrote: True but we are talking about two players going against each other already maxed out. And true but I doubt that would ever happen. It would certainly be neat to watch though.
If maxed out as in 200/200 and then going ahead clashing each other, the map also have to be factor. If the area is like narrow, the Terran would have a field day with Tanks Goliath play.
ZvT: Lurkers would now be completely useless, but mutas would be somewhat impossible to stop as T, so I think Zerg would win this matchup.
ZvP: I don't know much how this matchup would be affected. I suppose storms would always be perfect, but they'd be mostly perfectly dodged as well. I think zerg would still have the upper hand because they'd be able so spread their units so well and have perfect flanks every time.
PvT: Probably terran. They'd have the same smartcasting tanks as in SC2, so the tanks would be incredibly strong against the protoss army. Mass reaver/storm drops would be sick, but terran would be able to perfectly run his scvs away every time still.
T>Z Z>P P>T. Historically TvZ is the most imbalanced (53%), while PvT is the most balanced (only 51.6%). Also Terrans have won the most starleague titles, and have had the most dominant players (boxer, Oov, Nada, and Flash) while Zerg has only had Savior and Jaedong, and protoss Bisu and maybe Reach (nal_RA was too inconsistent to be up there with the other bonjwas).
Therefore I'd say Terran's the strongest; they own their favored matchup harder (tvz) and they suck at their unfavored matchup less (tvp)
On August 31 2010 03:39 blagoonga123 wrote: ZvT: Lurkers would now be completely useless, but mutas would be somewhat impossible to stop as T, so I think Zerg would win this matchup.
ZvP: I don't know much how this matchup would be affected. I suppose storms would always be perfect, but they'd be mostly perfectly dodged as well. I think zerg would still have the upper hand because they'd be able so spread their units so well and have perfect flanks every time.
PvT: Probably terran. They'd have the same smartcasting tanks as in SC2, so the tanks would be incredibly strong against the protoss army. Mass reaver/storm drops would be sick, but terran would be able to perfectly run his scvs away every time still.
How about being realistic instead of dreaming up these completely improbable scenarios. Even with eprfect micro mutas would be pretty useless after vessels and a certain number of upgrade marines. And no, perfect splitting and individual muta control isn't gonna mean anything because the mutas would all have to be really close together, if not totally stacked, to be able to all shoot the same marine at the same time before the medics heal him
Also mass reaver and storm drop? wtf? No amount of perfect play is gonna make your tech rushes any less all in or make your workers gather resources faster.....
Btw OP what's the point of imagining a 1000000000 APM player? It's physically impossible to reach that, or anything remotely close to it. How about imagining real players, that would make the discussion slightly more useful and slightly less stupid.
First vid was perfectly microed wraiths with 35 000 APM vs completely unmicroed hydras in really unfavourable terrain (sticking to the bridge half the time) without speed upgrade.
Second video was mutas vs archons, which is useless cause mutas outrange archons so even a lone player microing them in a stack can replicate that (jaedong has many times).
First vid was perfectly microed wraiths with 35 000 APM vs completely unmicroed hydras in really unfavourable terrain (sticking to the bridge half the time) without speed upgrade.
Second video was mutas vs archons, which is useless cause mutas outrange archons so even a lone player microing them in a stack can replicate that (jaedong has many times).
None of the videos are at all relevant
35000 APM? We're talking about optimal play, at theoretical infinite APM.
On August 31 2010 03:55 SubtleArt wrote: T>Z Z>P P>T. Historically TvZ is the most imbalanced (53%), while PvT is the most balanced (only 51.6%). Also Terrans have won the most starleague titles, and have had the most dominant players (boxer, Oov, Nada, and Flash) while Zerg has only had Savior and Jaedong, and protoss Bisu and maybe Reach (nal_RA was too inconsistent to be up there with the other bonjwas).
Therefore I'd say Terran's the strongest; they own their favored matchup harder (tvz) and they suck at their unfavored matchup less (tvp)
On August 31 2010 03:39 blagoonga123 wrote: ZvT: Lurkers would now be completely useless, but mutas would be somewhat impossible to stop as T, so I think Zerg would win this matchup.
ZvP: I don't know much how this matchup would be affected. I suppose storms would always be perfect, but they'd be mostly perfectly dodged as well. I think zerg would still have the upper hand because they'd be able so spread their units so well and have perfect flanks every time.
PvT: Probably terran. They'd have the same smartcasting tanks as in SC2, so the tanks would be incredibly strong against the protoss army. Mass reaver/storm drops would be sick, but terran would be able to perfectly run his scvs away every time still.
How about being realistic instead of dreaming up these completely improbable scenarios. Even with eprfect micro mutas would be pretty useless after vessels and a certain number of upgrade marines. And no, perfect splitting and individual muta control isn't gonna mean anything because the mutas would all have to be really close together, if not totally stacked, to be able to all shoot the same marine at the same time before the medics heal him
Also mass reaver and storm drop? wtf? No amount of perfect play is gonna make your tech rushes any less all in or make your workers gather resources faster.....
Btw OP what's the point of imagining a 1000000000 APM player? It's physically impossible to reach that, or anything remotely close to it. How about imagining real players, that would make the discussion slightly more useful and slightly less stupid.
That is also why I made the second question a more realistic one. And if you don't like it don't post ^_^. Also forget mining and all this stuff we are talking about two armys maxed out in an open playing field.
Those are just some videos I recalled used BWAPI to have an excessive amount of APM to do that kind of "trick". If you talk about having 1000000 APM, those videos are somehow related.
But of course this is all speculatory, no human can reach such high APM. Also, I remember a thread about what race would win in a perfectly played TvZ o PvZ in a perfectly balanced map.
First vid was perfectly microed wraiths with 35 000 APM vs completely unmicroed hydras in really unfavourable terrain (sticking to the bridge half the time) without speed upgrade.
Second video was mutas vs archons, which is useless cause mutas outrange archons so even a lone player microing them in a stack can replicate that (jaedong has many times).
None of the videos are at all relevant
So you came in here to tell us how useless the thread is, thats cool - now please stay silent because *some* actually find the topic interesting.
On topic: Lurkers wouldnt be useless at all, imagine MICROED lurker spines with perfect ling support. 2port wraith would be pretty scary vs z, because wraiths out run ovies perfectly microed. But talking about perfect play is stupid, because for a reaver play to wtfpwn someone you gotta keep the tech not scouted. BUT for the other perfect play to be perfect, you would have to fine the tech. Also you shouldve called the thread, "perfect micro" instead of perfect play, because with perfect overall play noone could make a dual perfect game - unless its a mirror matchup ofc.
Also perfect micro would obsolete scourges vs z and t I believe.
On August 31 2010 04:10 Quasar wrote: Those are just some videos I recalled used BWAPI to have an excessive amount of APM to do that kind of "trick". If you talk about having 1000000 APM, those videos are somehow related.
But of course this is all speculatory, no human can reach such high APM. Also, I remember a thread about what race would win in a perfectly played TvZ o PvZ in a perfectly balanced map.
Sorry I'm on my blackberry so I couldn't see them ;p
On August 31 2010 03:55 SubtleArt wrote: Btw OP what's the point of imagining a 1000000000 APM player? It's physically impossible to reach that, or anything remotely close to it. How about imagining real players, that would make the discussion slightly more useful and slightly less stupid.
Because it's interesting and fun to think about? If you'd like to discuss traditional MU balance, there are plenty of other places to do so.
But on topic thanks for your support and input guys its really interesting and gives me thought on how I could have made the thread better. Keep em coming.
I have a hard time in my head imagining a 200/200 zerg full air army with perfect control being taken down by anything. A perfect mix of mutas scourge devourers guardians queens and overlords being beaten. Think like muta spread out guardians well placed a few muta groupings doing micro perfect scourge timing and splitting coming in to take out other races air units queens slowing everything down and taking out protoss spell casters.
On August 31 2010 04:54 Eggm wrote: I have a hard time in my head imagining a 200/200 zerg full air army with perfect control being taken down by anything. A perfect mix of mutas scourge devourers guardians queens and overlords being beaten. Think like muta spread out guardians well placed a few muta groupings doing micro perfect scourge timing and splitting coming in to take out other races air units queens slowing everything down and taking out protoss spell casters.
Then imagine battlecruiser and valks (without the sprite bug) at 200/200. Perfect cloning instantly takes down a gazillion devoruers. The right mix of corsair / arb / carrier would really make it have a run for its money though (;
This is unrealistic question because of the unlimited APM factor. With unlimited APM certain dynamics break down.
Wherever a unit has a certain attack range advantage, sufficient attack speed and sufficient mobility they'll eat alive every unit they can kite. Unit matchups that fall in this catagory are Vultures against anything with less than range 5. Wraiths would be immune to anything in the air with less than range 5. Valks would go from situationally useful to the supreme sub capitol unit. Scourge would go from awesome by themselves to becoming crippled without queens in play.
The best spellcasters would be based on durability and range first and foremost. Dark Archons, Arbitors would become the defacto spell casters of Protoss with Templar losing utility as upgrades get better and armies get bigger. Queens would be the elevated to being as important as Defilers because mutas and scourge can be kited by almost everything. Even in ZvZ ensnare and the ability to unlock hive will become the deciding factor. Medic optic flare might come close to doing for infantry in PvT what heal did for infantry in PvZ.
By making the APM unlimited makes this discussion less meaningful because the interactions would change too much. To directly answer your question possibly the best race would be Terran as the maps currently exist. Breaking a Terran defense is the hardest out of all three, is the safest race to play off of just one expansion and is the hardest race to prevent scouting.
I believe July Zerg once said that a perfectly played zerg would be the strongest race. He wasn't saying anything about 200/200 armies though. The races just play out differently Maxed armies aren't zergs strong suit; fast production and tech switching is. In the same way, map dependence is huge. A map that was just all low ground with no chokes would be awful in pvz if your opponent had any sort of ling micro regardless of your own apm.
I wont be surprised if this essentially boils down to a flash v jaedong debate lol (both have perfect mechanics and understanding of the game )
im like 98% sure that 3-3 200/200 mech is the strongest army out there.. i think ive heard day9 say it several times, nuke say it several times, ive read it on tl several times, seen several progames displaying the strength.... and ive used it and feel like its the strongest several times hahaha
if executed perfectly, mech is unstoppable
(shame really, im a jd fan- and flash is very very very capable of pulling straight mech and destroying jd... especially when he goes fast upgrades)
EDIT: this is assuming that perfect emps to deal with stasus and right army composition (gol, tank, vulture/mine) and placements are all spot on.
1- Early game and even later, scv + marines perfect micro would be a complete killer. Think that range units perfectly microed have a much bigger impact than zergling or any melee unit perfectly microed.
2- Lurker would be useless, since marines microed one by one would dodge quite easily their spines. They could even fire and retreat with perfect timing, almost instantly.
3- You wouldn't be able to scourge anything. Valks would completely negate mutas, cuz player would target fire scourge with his rines. Same for vessel: terran player would not lose a single vessel in the whole game by just protecting them with rines and killing every scourge incoming with focus fire.
TvP would be a nightmare too for toss. Terran player would block constantly zealots with scvs, even in large battles (since he could micro perfectly scvs one by one). Vulture would run all over the map killing shit all over the place. The matchup would be less ridiculous than TvZ but I don't think toss would stand a chance. Imagine also tanks absolutely perfectly spread, protected by vultures who would patrol fire and never be hit by friendly fire. You would forget about zealot killing tanks so easily because of the splash of freidnly tanks since tanks would keep firing on distant units. Etc etc etc.
This question is a question that is absolutely impossible to answer, because there are far too many variables in starcraft. To the guy who said make a test with comps: I'd like to see you try..........
On August 31 2010 06:34 Muirhead wrote: Um I think you guys are thinking too far into the game.
For example, a computer could probe rush a terran player and use the superior range and acceleration of probes to instantly win.
I'm pretty sure that perfectly microed scv would rape that since the time you need to get your probe to ennemy base he has +2 or +3 scvs. Scv can repair, are incredibly robust and would chase entering probe immediately.
For the first part (relating to real-life playing and not at maximum potential) I'd say T is probably the strongest, especially since tournament results at the top show this (however slight the advantage is).
In terms of a theoretical computer with maximum possible APM, I think Zerg would probably be the best. The sheer macro and micro/flanking abilities would be unbelievable. Although Protoss would definitely stand a chance since they probably have the most devastating spells (except DS).
The most important thing to remember is that Mutalisks would become the ultimate weapons of destruction given that kind of APM.
With unlimited useful APM (not just spamming), I would easily give it to zerg. Assuming the power to control every ling in a group individually, surrounding an opponent (even terran's tank line) becomes trivial if you could space them out in real time such that they are close, but just outside splash range. WIth perfect swarms, lurker control, plagues and muta micro, I don't see the terran's defense or toss strength standing in the way. Then again, aside from AI vs AI testing, you will never be able to achieve anywhere near these results with human hands.
On August 31 2010 07:21 moopie wrote: With unlimited useful APM (not just spamming), I would easily give it to zerg. Assuming the power to control every ling in a group individually, surrounding an opponent (even terran's tank line) becomes trivial if you could space them out in real time such that they are close, but just outside splash range. WIth perfect swarms, lurker control, plagues and muta micro, I don't see the terran's defense or toss strength standing in the way. Then again, aside from AI vs AI testing, you will never be able to achieve anywhere near these results with human hands.
You don't flank anything if you have a whole army of mm microed one by one.
Obviously at that game, range unit get an advantage if they are perfectly microed, and one by one. Lurker would be completely negated, and vessel cloud would irradiate everything, since you wouldn't be able to scourge them (focus fire on scourge with rines).
Well a couple of marines and p would be dead at least, i mean if u micro marines perfectly 5 marines should own 6 zealots right? =p. I think terrans would be most powerful because they have the most ranged units and if u can move away the units before they get attacked and have the ones who won't get attacked firing at the same time then u'll win every battle. Vs zerg this won't work as well as vs P because z can have more units but i still have the feeling t would be the far greatest.
On August 31 2010 06:00 Pedo.Bear wrote: I wont be surprised if this essentially boils down to a flash v jaedong debate lol (both have perfect mechanics and understanding of the game )
im like 98% sure that 3-3 200/200 mech is the strongest army out there.. i think ive heard day9 say it several times, nuke say it several times, ive read it on tl several times, seen several progames displaying the strength.... and ive used it and feel like its the strongest several times hahaha
if executed perfectly, mech is unstoppable
(shame really, im a jd fan- and flash is very very very capable of pulling straight mech and destroying jd... especially when he goes fast upgrades)
EDIT: this is assuming that perfect emps to deal with stasus and right army composition (gol, tank, vulture/mine) and placements are all spot on.
yeah but most of you guys are looking at it as a 200/200 army fights and say "terran is theoratically the best race of course"
but I don't think a perfectly played zerg will let terran reach 200/200 so easily.
On August 31 2010 07:21 moopie wrote: With unlimited useful APM (not just spamming), I would easily give it to zerg. Assuming the power to control every ling in a group individually, surrounding an opponent (even terran's tank line) becomes trivial if you could space them out in real time such that they are close, but just outside splash range. WIth perfect swarms, lurker control, plagues and muta micro, I don't see the terran's defense or toss strength standing in the way. Then again, aside from AI vs AI testing, you will never be able to achieve anywhere near these results with human hands.
You don't flank anything if you have a whole army of mm microed one by one.
Obviously at that game, range unit get an advantage if they are perfectly microed, and one by one. Lurker would be completely negated, and vessel cloud would irradiate everything, since you wouldn't be able to scourge them (focus fire on scourge with rines).
Zerg wouldn't stand a chance.
Vessels wouldn't travel in a cloud, would be inefficient. Not to mention 1 plague will still > them, and then mutas can pick them off, even with marines guarding. Mutas are faster than vessels, and the losses will be acceptable. Vessels would need to be kept seperated enough to avoid plagues. And mass marines won't be the end-all of TvZ offensive, SK terran will still have the same weaknesses it does now.
Wouldn't it come down to a drone rush every game? Drones have an extra range, so if they pulled their first drones to attack, they'd win every game on a 2 player map. Strategy would completely change if there was no APM limit, it wouldnt be the same game played faster. Think about how useful spawn broodling or lockdown would be if there was no cap on using them.
On August 31 2010 08:16 moopie wrote: Zerg wouldn't stand a chance.
Vessels wouldn't travel in a cloud, would be inefficient. Not to mention 1 plague will still > them,.[/QUOTE]
Medic restoration is cheaper than Plague. Defilers will be killed by irradiate before the Defiler can consume enough units to reapply 4-5 plagues because of medics constantly removing it.
I think zerg because the 200 army would be microed very well and because if the 200 army dies, the army would come way faster than and recooperate better than a terran or toss army would
anytime you do an offensive move it either hurts you or hurts them, if they defend it sucessfully then it's good for them. lets look at turtling mech, if they play it perfectly then the zerg will eventually lose since if you play it 100% perfectly there are no weaknesses to abuse. however no one will ever reach 100% perfectly
I think that if all the races were used humanly impossibly perfectly, Terran would be the strongest. Of course I can not prove this, and I am not entirely sure of it, but it seems to me like it would be that way. Marines would almost never die to lurker splash, never get caught in dark swarm, and science vessels would never die to scourge. Terran would just irradiate everything Z had and win with godlike marine micro
However, I think that Protoss might beat Zerg if played inhumanly perfect.
Surely it's protoss under the influence of Dark Archons using mind control? 200 instant mind controls rape anything? I'm pretty sure they have more reach than EMP does right?
On August 31 2010 11:03 Dr.Lettuce wrote: Surely it's protoss under the influence of Dark Archons using mind control? 200 instant mind controls rape anything? I'm pretty sure they have more reach than EMP does right?
For every dark archon, you take up the supply of 8 zerglings, or tanks just out-range and crush DA, or wraiths just cloak and shoot, etc...
But the point itself is moot, as I'm sure we're not talking about the ultimate army. Else, terran would have taken the cake handily.
On August 31 2010 11:07 Jayme wrote: Hive Zerg is generally considered the most ridiculous. Defiler really has some ridiculous spells.
Irradiate + emp + restoration + positioning would own defilers. I think Terran would constantly avoid getting flanked and just dance around while owning the Zerg.
I think progamers discussed this once, and decided that Zerg would be strongest. IDK how they figure that, I feel lurkers would get stomped by pro-micro.
First vid was perfectly microed wraiths with 35 000 APM vs completely unmicroed hydras in really unfavourable terrain (sticking to the bridge half the time) without speed upgrade.
Second video was mutas vs archons, which is useless cause mutas outrange archons so even a lone player microing them in a stack can replicate that (jaedong has many times).
None of the videos are at all relevant
35000 APM? We're talking about optimal play, at theoretical infinite APM.
idk, but it took me a while to figure out an AI was playing this, thought the APM counter was just bugged or something
I don't even think it's possible to judge if both players were to have maxed out armies. Even if you're maxed it depends on the units compositions, and the computers would constantly change their units compositions in relation to eachother.
PvZ ex. P: I choose 200/200 dragoons Z: K, well I choose like 5 defilers and 380 zerglings. P: Fine, I choose 10 HT, and the rest archons. Z: Ok, I change all those zerglings to ultralisks now. P: I change my whole army to carriers: Z: I change my army to 5 defilers + the rest hydralisks etc etc etc
There's no end to it, and you can't just pick some random composition going in because there's a chance that the other computer will have a composition that "counters" it.
frankly, terran would own the crap outta other races.
Lets think:
Marine ->first ranged unit of the game. Run into opponents mineral line, dance around with perfect micro and kill workers.
Vultures--> super fast, basically destroies any melee units with micro.
Goliath--> ridiculous anti-air range, can probably kite muta if played perfectly. (See boxer vs. Savior Micro)
Against toss --> Vessel = mass EMP Tanks--> with infinite micro, basically tank shots would be perfect. Friendly fire would be negated because tanks that would FF would just pick the furthest unit in range, and shoot that instead, letting vultures take care of zealotbombs and what not.
Plague-->Useless, have medics for restoration. Dark Swarm --> run away from it, use firebats to pick off anything too dangerous
Marine perfect micro destroys lurkers (There was a pimpest play on this, 3 marine kill 1 lurker, no damage on marines)
Mass drops. Remember Boxer's triple dropship play against (Yellow/Chojja?) Imagine coordinated dropships of M/M at every single zerg base at once lol, total rape.
let's assume that each race is played as perfectly as humanly possible. In PvT, Protoss would spread zealots so to reduce mine splash, goons would come in wasting no shots to prioritized units, such as tanks, and perfect storms, covering tanks, tanks cannot change and move fast to dodge storm, but vultures could. protoss would exploit a weakness in a terrans base, or army or an angle, terran would not be able to cover everywhere he expands 100%, otherwise he'll be spread out too thin. on the other hand, terran would have the perfect number of tanks and vultures to protoss's composition, terran would not overkill and target goons, vultures kill zealots. turrets and mines at optimal positions. I think Protoss would win in PvT. PvZ i think we forget, even if someone microes perfectly, they cannot absolutely completely dodge a storm, if well casted, a storm would cover a good area, where the hydras are (if you wanna argue that the zerg would spread his hydras out, then you have to know that all his hydras won't be in range to join the fight) , it would take a few secs to get them out of that, and if a protoss is perfect they would cover the field of storms in a few secs, and make zerg units dance, and during that time while they get dmged a bit and are trying to move out of storm rather than atking, protoss can destroy the zerg army. I'm not sure about early game though, if hydra rushes were perfectly microed, pulling dmg hydras back before they die to cannons. and late game, i think same thing applies like PvT, Protoss army is the less mobile one now, and zerg would go cracklings everywhere, protoss might not be able to defend everywhere, if he spreads his army at each expo, then zerg would launch a big army to kill one expo, but then we have to consider that zerg could be open somewhere else too by doing that. so there are simply too many variables i guess to decide which race is the best.
On August 31 2010 13:51 Crisium wrote: Make a lot of money, and pay Stork, Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash a lot of cash to play each other on the Slowest setting. It'll be close enough...
Haha this would be so bad. They'd throw their hands up 3 minutes in because their 6th worker hadn't spawned yet.
On August 31 2010 07:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 31 2010 07:21 moopie wrote: With unlimited useful APM (not just spamming), I would easily give it to zerg. Assuming the power to control every ling in a group individually, surrounding an opponent (even terran's tank line) becomes trivial if you could space them out in real time such that they are close, but just outside splash range. WIth perfect swarms, lurker control, plagues and muta micro, I don't see the terran's defense or toss strength standing in the way. Then again, aside from AI vs AI testing, you will never be able to achieve anywhere near these results with human hands.
You don't flank anything if you have a whole army of mm microed one by one.
Obviously at that game, range unit get an advantage if they are perfectly microed, and one by one. Lurker would be completely negated, and vessel cloud would irradiate everything, since you wouldn't be able to scourge them (focus fire on scourge with rines).
Zerg wouldn't stand a chance.
Vessels wouldn't travel in a cloud, would be inefficient. Not to mention 1 plague will still > them, and then mutas can pick them off, even with marines guarding. Mutas are faster than vessels, and the losses will be acceptable. Vessels would need to be kept seperated enough to avoid plagues. And mass marines won't be the end-all of TvZ offensive, SK terran will still have the same weaknesses it does now.
When I said cloud, I meant that zerg would not be able to kill vessel because of marines targetting scourges, so terran would find himself with 15 vessels very quickly.
Terran would have no problem dealing with plague, as he would have medics special ability ready and probably scvs to repair.
But you're right, there would be vessels basically everywhere.
SKTerran would have no weakness at all. Terran would lose almost nothing, as he could micro all his troop and avoid to lose anything at all to lurkers.
SKTerran would be absolutely invincible if you could retreat exactly on time, micro perfectly against lurkers, keep all your vessel alive by right clicking every single scourge and use your medics against plague.
There is absolutely nothing zerg could be able to do.
who ever has the fastest units .. longest range unit .. earliest range unit .. will win .. wtf all of you talking about dropships siege tanks and marines ..
the answer is: none. You know why? because starcraft is not only about mechanics, a lot of strategy, guessing and mental games are in it. In other words: no matter how many apm you got or how good your micro is, you won't kill firebats on the ramp with medics in front of them with just pure lings, you won't kill 2 lurkers with some zergling support on the ramp with a group of MnM, you won't survive a 2 port wraith with 3 hatch muta without a hydra/evo den etc. etc. =)
On August 31 2010 13:51 Crisium wrote: Make a lot of money, and pay Stork, Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash a lot of cash to play each other on the Slowest setting. It'll be close enough...
I concur. That's actually really good way to approximate OP theoretical problem in practice. I think they might be convinced to do it for free if the matches would've been given enough attention.
On August 31 2010 13:51 Crisium wrote: Make a lot of money, and pay Stork, Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash a lot of cash to play each other on the Slowest setting. It'll be close enough...
I concur. That's actually really good way to approximate OP theoretical problem in practice. I think they might be convinced to do it for free if the matches would've been given enough attention.
It would theoretically take several hours per match, I don't know that they would would have the patience for a long macro game on slowest, that even when heavily micro'd would still leave you with nothing to do for long stretches of time..
Terran or Zerg probably although Toss would also be very strong.. it's really impossible to say. but lurker attack dodging perfect micro and macro I mean .. don't know how anyone could lose cause whenever I think about an awesome unit I just think of something that would make that one suck ^^ so I mean would be fun to see but impossible to know before hand
Well I can't really tell without knowing the army compositions. And even with it it's hard to guess.
A few notes though.
open plains favor melee
infinite range favors higher range units
infinite micro favors ranged units
fast unit attack animation favors higher micro
Fast unit acceleration favors higher micro
It's rather opinionated since the query is untestable. Even four progamers playing a team melee game against four other progamers would yield mistakes. It's the closest we'd get to testing it.
If you'd like, perhaps you should get 7 guys to go on at the same time you do and get them all to try to micro units.
edit: the poll on page 2 is more meaningful than the rest of the thread. At least it clearly tells our perceptions.
I remember reading somewhere that the Korean pros actually theorycrafted this awhile back and they agreed that Zerg would be the strongest race with perfect macro/micro.
On August 31 2010 13:51 Crisium wrote: Make a lot of money, and pay Stork, Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash a lot of cash to play each other on the Slowest setting. It'll be close enough...
I was going to add a poll. But without a poll it forces people to reply and actually debate the topic which is what I wanted. Also many people are complaining about how unrealistic it sounds, I'm full aware of the fact its unrealistic and perfect against perfect could quite possibly cancel each other out. But it forces everyone to think and its entertaining to see everyones argument as to which would be best.
On August 31 2010 13:51 Crisium wrote: Make a lot of money, and pay Stork, Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash a lot of cash to play each other on the Slowest setting. It'll be close enough...
This. It is probably the closest we can get to 'perfect' play..
I'm full aware of the fact its unrealistic and perfect against perfect could quite possibly cancel each other out. But it forces everyone to think and its entertaining to see everyones argument as to which would be best.
Yes it forces people to think but in an unrealistic manner. Player opinions would be radically different if infinite apm didn't render mines useless, made optic flare against toss overwhelmingly viable and such other silly things that don't happen with human limitations. Your question would've been better off without that condition pervading the logic needed to answer the question.
I'd have to say Zerg, since the only reason mutas stop being so damn good is you can only control 11 at a time and eventually things like irradiate come out. If you could have infinite mutas microed perfectly it'd be almost impossible for a P or T to ever start a game without being way behind. Irradiate would be largely useless and perfect micro could put mutas in a complete circle around any splash AA unit while also hitting scourge perfectly.
I'm full aware of the fact its unrealistic and perfect against perfect could quite possibly cancel each other out. But it forces everyone to think and its entertaining to see everyones argument as to which would be best.
Yes it forces people to think but in an unrealistic manner. Player opinions would be radically different if infinite apm didn't render mines useless, made optic flare against toss overwhelmingly viable and such other silly things that don't happen with human limitations. Your question would've been better off without that condition pervading the logic needed to answer the question.
You use big words.. ^^;;
Anyway I don't know if people can't read or if they are just so pumped to bash the fact its unrealistic like their imagination got stolen along with their virginity at 6yrs old. O_O;;
Anyway directly under the fantasy questions is one that should state under todays limitations and how we play what do you believe the best is. If you have an issue with using your imagination and being bland and boring then answer the second question.
On August 31 2010 03:55 SubtleArt wrote: T>Z Z>P P>T. Historically TvZ is the most imbalanced (53%), while PvT is the most balanced (only 51.6%). Also Terrans have won the most starleague titles, and have had the most dominant players (boxer, Oov, Nada, and Flash) while Zerg has only had Savior and Jaedong, and protoss Bisu and maybe Reach (nal_RA was too inconsistent to be up there with the other bonjwas).
Therefore I'd say Terran's the strongest; they own their favored matchup harder (tvz) and they suck at their unfavored matchup less (tvp)
On August 31 2010 03:39 blagoonga123 wrote: ZvT: Lurkers would now be completely useless, but mutas would be somewhat impossible to stop as T, so I think Zerg would win this matchup.
ZvP: I don't know much how this matchup would be affected. I suppose storms would always be perfect, but they'd be mostly perfectly dodged as well. I think zerg would still have the upper hand because they'd be able so spread their units so well and have perfect flanks every time.
PvT: Probably terran. They'd have the same smartcasting tanks as in SC2, so the tanks would be incredibly strong against the protoss army. Mass reaver/storm drops would be sick, but terran would be able to perfectly run his scvs away every time still.
How about being realistic instead of dreaming up these completely improbable scenarios. Even with eprfect micro mutas would be pretty useless after vessels and a certain number of upgrade marines. And no, perfect splitting and individual muta control isn't gonna mean anything because the mutas would all have to be really close together, if not totally stacked, to be able to all shoot the same marine at the same time before the medics heal him
Also mass reaver and storm drop? wtf? No amount of perfect play is gonna make your tech rushes any less all in or make your workers gather resources faster.....
Btw OP what's the point of imagining a 1000000000 APM player? It's physically impossible to reach that, or anything remotely close to it. How about imagining real players, that would make the discussion slightly more useful and slightly less stupid.
Except you could then split your mutas into groups and harass all over the place? And just because this discussion doesn't adhere to your own arbitrary aesthetic doesn't mean it's a "stupid" discussion. Seriously, how exactly is discussing real players any more or less "useful" than having a fun fluff discussion? Do you even know how to have fun? Do you have any imagination? It must be really sad to be you :/ Poor dude.
Historically, Protoss has been known as the weakest of all 3, and having the least ammount of Protoss winning starleagues, etc. However, I think with the infinite APM and perfect play, Protoss may actually be the strongest (assuming we're talking about 200/200 full upgrades and perfect unit composition). I think a 200/200 battle on an open field vs Z or T, P would come out on top with stasis on tanks, storms, disrupt, etc. and I imagine a maxed out army of P would run through Z. With that said, though, I think that Zerg would have an advantage in early/mid game vs P
So, I think it would be P, then Z, then T, which is hilarious because Historically in real play, it has been T>Z>P, which is the opposite. I think that Protoss players still have a ways to go in terms of mastering the game - I think Flash has damn near perfected usage of Terran, and same goes for Jaedong with zerg, and I don't feel like any 1 protoss has reached the full potential of using P. and I'm a protoss player, so I'm not hatin'
On August 31 2010 22:20 fearus wrote: I remember reading somewhere that the Korean pros actually theorycrafted this awhile back and they agreed that Zerg would be the strongest race with perfect macro/micro.
On August 31 2010 22:20 fearus wrote: I remember reading somewhere that the Korean pros actually theorycrafted this awhile back and they agreed that Zerg would be the strongest race with perfect macro/micro.
ehh probably protoss, seems they can do so much more shit with apm and pull of craziest stuff, where as zerg and terran need insane mechanice b4 even attempting any super gosu stuff. ex: at home on good pc i use zerg and do fairly well vs most people, at school on shitty computer with like -100 apm, i still wreck the same people with toss, and half the time just winging strats off the top of my head
this is regarding normal ability
btw...perfect dark archon=potential for 600 pop(likely to just be 400, but still)...greater than any 200 microed army, and this assumes both are extremely microed
with the insane 100000000 apm, i think ehh no idea (zerg could be everywhere at same time, but terran could outrange ton of stuff, and toss could just freeze entire armies and just storm stuff all day)
On August 31 2010 03:55 SubtleArt wrote: T>Z Z>P P>T. Historically TvZ is the most imbalanced (53%), while PvT is the most balanced (only 51.6%). Also Terrans have won the most starleague titles, and have had the most dominant players (boxer, Oov, Nada, and Flash) while Zerg has only had Savior and Jaedong, and protoss Bisu and maybe Reach (nal_RA was too inconsistent to be up there with the other bonjwas).
Therefore I'd say Terran's the strongest; they own their favored matchup harder (tvz) and they suck at their unfavored matchup less (tvp)
On August 31 2010 03:39 blagoonga123 wrote: ZvT: Lurkers would now be completely useless, but mutas would be somewhat impossible to stop as T, so I think Zerg would win this matchup.
ZvP: I don't know much how this matchup would be affected. I suppose storms would always be perfect, but they'd be mostly perfectly dodged as well. I think zerg would still have the upper hand because they'd be able so spread their units so well and have perfect flanks every time.
PvT: Probably terran. They'd have the same smartcasting tanks as in SC2, so the tanks would be incredibly strong against the protoss army. Mass reaver/storm drops would be sick, but terran would be able to perfectly run his scvs away every time still.
How about being realistic instead of dreaming up these completely improbable scenarios. Even with eprfect micro mutas would be pretty useless after vessels and a certain number of upgrade marines. And no, perfect splitting and individual muta control isn't gonna mean anything because the mutas would all have to be really close together, if not totally stacked, to be able to all shoot the same marine at the same time before the medics heal him
Also mass reaver and storm drop? wtf? No amount of perfect play is gonna make your tech rushes any less all in or make your workers gather resources faster.....
Btw OP what's the point of imagining a 1000000000 APM player? It's physically impossible to reach that, or anything remotely close to it. How about imagining real players, that would make the discussion slightly more useful and slightly less stupid.
Except you could then split your mutas into groups and harass all over the place? And just because this discussion doesn't adhere to your own arbitrary aesthetic doesn't mean it's a "stupid" discussion. Seriously, how exactly is discussing real players any more or less "useful" than having a fun fluff discussion? Do you even know how to have fun? Do you have any imagination? It must be really sad to be you :/ Poor dude.
Haha, I'll bite. Although you should have stated this in your OP that you just wanted a fun thread for arguing.
Given perfect micro, on flat terrain, I think a protoss would win just about every fight. 49DA's with mind control and feedback is just unstoppable imo. It's instantaneous and has a good range so all spellcasters fall. Then you can fight any 2 supply unit (vulture, tank, dragoon, zealot) armies to a draw using just mind control, and any damage tanking from the DA's / added spells / second mind controls yield a win for the protoss.
The only units that might stand a chance would be large marine or large hydra armies, and even then, the protoss just has to edit his army slightly. All zerg air falls to maelstrom and storm if they bunch, and if they don't, to units like carriers/scouts/dragoons.
I can also imagine stasis being a large problem for any army, given that stasis is instantaneous, each arbiter would get two stasises before being lockdowned/yamatod/emp'd. Let's see your opponent fight with half their army left .
And lastly, I've seen terran mech fall pretty easily to zealot pushes on flat terrain even when the tanks were spread out (micro maps). The defender's advantage goes away completely given perfect micro as each tank shot would only hit one zealot, and the tanks can't kite.
On August 31 2010 03:55 SubtleArt wrote: T>Z Z>P P>T. Historically TvZ is the most imbalanced (53%), while PvT is the most balanced (only 51.6%). Also Terrans have won the most starleague titles, and have had the most dominant players (boxer, Oov, Nada, and Flash) while Zerg has only had Savior and Jaedong, and protoss Bisu and maybe Reach (nal_RA was too inconsistent to be up there with the other bonjwas).
Therefore I'd say Terran's the strongest; they own their favored matchup harder (tvz) and they suck at their unfavored matchup less (tvp)
On August 31 2010 03:39 blagoonga123 wrote: ZvT: Lurkers would now be completely useless, but mutas would be somewhat impossible to stop as T, so I think Zerg would win this matchup.
ZvP: I don't know much how this matchup would be affected. I suppose storms would always be perfect, but they'd be mostly perfectly dodged as well. I think zerg would still have the upper hand because they'd be able so spread their units so well and have perfect flanks every time.
PvT: Probably terran. They'd have the same smartcasting tanks as in SC2, so the tanks would be incredibly strong against the protoss army. Mass reaver/storm drops would be sick, but terran would be able to perfectly run his scvs away every time still.
How about being realistic instead of dreaming up these completely improbable scenarios. Even with eprfect micro mutas would be pretty useless after vessels and a certain number of upgrade marines. And no, perfect splitting and individual muta control isn't gonna mean anything because the mutas would all have to be really close together, if not totally stacked, to be able to all shoot the same marine at the same time before the medics heal him
Also mass reaver and storm drop? wtf? No amount of perfect play is gonna make your tech rushes any less all in or make your workers gather resources faster.....
Btw OP what's the point of imagining a 1000000000 APM player? It's physically impossible to reach that, or anything remotely close to it. How about imagining real players, that would make the discussion slightly more useful and slightly less stupid.
Except you could then split your mutas into groups and harass all over the place? And just because this discussion doesn't adhere to your own arbitrary aesthetic doesn't mean it's a "stupid" discussion. Seriously, how exactly is discussing real players any more or less "useful" than having a fun fluff discussion? Do you even know how to have fun? Do you have any imagination? It must be really sad to be you :/ Poor dude.
Haha, I'll bite. Although you should have stated this in your OP that you just wanted a fun thread for arguing.
Given perfect micro, on flat terrain, I think a protoss would win just about every fight. 49DA's with mind control and feedback is just unstoppable imo. It's instantaneous and has a good range so all spellcasters fall. Then you can fight any 2 supply unit (vulture, tank, dragoon, zealot) armies to a draw using just mind control, and any damage tanking from the DA's / added spells / second mind controls yield a win for the protoss.
The only units that might stand a chance would be large marine or large hydra armies, and even then, the protoss just has to edit his army slightly. All zerg air falls to maelstrom and storm if they bunch, and if they don't, to units like carriers/scouts/dragoons.
I can also imagine stasis being a large problem for any army, given that stasis is instantaneous, each arbiter would get two stasises before being lockdowned/yamatod/emp'd. Let's see your opponent fight with half their army left .
And lastly, I've seen terran mech fall pretty easily to zealot pushes on flat terrain even when the tanks were spread out (micro maps). The defender's advantage goes away completely given perfect micro as each tank shot would only hit one zealot, and the tanks can't kite.
a) siege tanks way outrange DA spellcasting range b) with perfect micro tanks would snipe a lot of them c) with perfect micro vultures would snipe them preemptively d) with perfect emp they're useless unless they control or feedback vessels, in which case theyve wasted energy and with perfect micro the tanks snipe only the ones with energy
stasis solves all that ^?, wat is range of both emp and stasis? + u could even do like hallucinations of arbiters to screw up emps
dont get point of this thread , seems like u are indirectly asking wat race u should use by finding the "best", if so terran 100% just think of all the amazing players they have compared to z and p
On August 31 2010 06:00 Pedo.Bear wrote: im like 98% sure that 3-3 200/200 mech is the strongest army out there.. i think ive heard day9 say it several times, nuke say it several times, ive read it on tl several times, seen several progames displaying the strength.... and ive used it and feel like its the strongest several times hahaha
Effectively speaking it is. However it's not really truly the strongest. Spellcaster usage can prove highly effective against mech and it tends to boil down a lot to unit ratios: i.e. having the right ratio of units to do optimal damage to the Terran's ratio of vulture/goliath/tank. And also, Battle Cruiser + Tank is Terran's strongest endgame option. All "counters" to it are not very cost efficient.
And at infinite apm, you can imagine situations like a lot of queens combined with ling/hydra/defiler would destroy it if you had enough energy and fast enough hands to do like 30 broodlings all at once and still have clicks left over for darkswarm and plague.
Speculation of what race is best at infinite apm is just that: speculation.
The game would be completely different, there's no point to thinking about it in "regular" ways. For instance, in ZvT, the Lurker and Defiler are now very weak, whereas the Queen would take a more important role. Terran would go M and M vs P, because mass optical flares would eliminate the Protoss army. Actually, thinking about it, optical flare suddenly becomes a very, very good spell. TvZ would be a medic heavy army with valkyries or SV's and TvP would be essentially a medic heavy SK terran. T would lose to Z because with sufficient zerglings there would be too many units to Optical Flare, and it would stop being cost-effective. TvP would have the Terran win every time because the P would not be able to see the terran army. ZvT would have be Queenling -> UltraQueenling (with maybe some mutas as well). ZvP would win because the Z would have a perfect contain and be able to threaten with drops, hydra busts, etc. So Z>T>P in 1000000 APM situations
Sorry for the big text, I need to work on making paragraphs
I think you have to consider whether they play optimally or just at perfect mechanics. It's a different question because as someone said, the best strategy might just be to drone rush. A lot of people are saying get a ton of one caster then start owning, but if there is perfect strategy involved as well, the opponent would see a timing attack window. The supply might not even reach 200 because a lot of it might just be perfect dragoon range micro or something like that.
It would be awesome to see a Terran go marine medic tank science vessel vs Protoss. He could emp all the templars. But then again, what if Protoss goes Dark Archons to feedback the science veseels? Then the medic marine army would get owned by storm + reavers in shuttles.
Nothing would change imo. If you have two equally skilled players the APM doesn't matter as much. At best you would see more harass but they would be able to deal with it easier. I don't think there is much gameplay the current pros would change maybe for APM for harass but definetly not to change their styles because its already refined.
I think the hardest part is imagining what micro would look like "optimal" vs "optimal" play. That and how strategies would change.
Like someone said earlier, mines would lose their non-slowing down toss army before it gets to tank line functions.
One thing that a lot of you guys are doing is saying "well perfect vulture micro = gg." However, you have to keep into consideration what "perfect" ling micro looks like versus a "perfect" vulture. In order to find out what the best perfect race is, it has to be matched up against another "perfect" opponent.
I have a lot of trouble conceptualizing this, but I guess you can say that "if both players make the best possible decisions based off of scouting etc. which race would be ahead." Even then, I can't come to a single conclusion off of that because it is too difficult to imagine a "perfect" play. :x.
If 2 opponents each had this 10millionbazillion apm (comps) basically the units themselves would in theory SLOW down to their basic range & speed factors as was described throughout this thread. In essence the game is now a turn-based game with this kind of godly unit control.
A turn-based or "perfect micro" Scraft would be interesting lol. The term "strategy" would take on a whole new meaning. I'd love to see some 75 year old dude out "strategize" the teenager with a six pack of pepsi. That would be a good laugh. "Hey old dude, you gonna move? It's been 10 minutes? wtf?" "Checkmate err, uh All ur bases belong to me sonny boy! gg, sorry nr. I gotta go to bingo now!"
K, wow that was kinda tangent.. sorry. No wonder I barely have 200 posts in the 5 years here at TL.. haha! The true power of a race would have to be analyzed at its stripped core or ultimate potential such as these infinite apm ideas. But we play as imperfect humans and so the "best" race is the one that is the most humanly manageable. The pro stats seem to reflect terran as that.
In Foreigner starcraft proscene, I think Protoss is the strongest. I feel majority of the foreigners play protoss from what I gather from TLS and other events.
In Korean proscene, terran seem to be the most successful mostly lead by flash/fantasy.
EPT
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