I'm writing this topic about something I've been thinking about for years but never really thought to get others opinions. Now I bring it to you my fellow TL.net fam. I'm hoping you can give me your input and put my mind at rest.
The Question; What is starcrafts strongest race? Now I realize this question has been asked before, the catch to this is what do you think starcrafts strongest race is fully maxed out, fully upgraded and in the hands of someone who can use everything the race has to offer. Basically I'm asking you to think of a user with 1000000 APM that can use every spell, move every unit instantly.
So, would it be
Protoss: with their wide use of spells and strong units, dark archons for maelstrom and feedback, reavers for splash damage. Arbs for stasis, and hts for storm. Archons for splash. Etc.
Terran: with their strong ground units and ability to attack from afar. Tanks for splash, vults for mines. Vessels to irradiate or defense matrix, gols for anti air defense, medics to restore. Etc.
Zerg; with their massing qualities and quick unit attack speed. Cracklings for speedy attacks, untralisks for bulk and power. Defilers for plague and dark swarm, queens to ensnare. Etc etc.
I look forward to hearing everyones input and I'd love to get this one off the ground and see what everyone thinks.
Now on the flipside of this I realize noone actually has the apm to use each race to its full potential, with that being said what do you believe is the best race under the conditions we play. And if you take the best player in the world and he can play each race equally. Which would end up on top?
Look forward to hearing your guys opinions.
For the fictional part of this question I believe protoss would come out on top. With the ability to immobilize a zerg or terran army via maelstrom or stasis and then follow up with reavers and storm as well as the support from other protoss units I don't think there is much a zerg or terran player could do to stop it. *remember that the race can be used to its full potential and there is no time between spells and such. Everything can happen instantaneously.
On August 31 2010 03:14 yeti wrote: I would say zerg since 1000000 amp = perfect macro (for the race with the hardest macro-mechanic)
note: A 100000 amp user would be a computer. So a scientific test could be made by pitting comps against each other.
You mean APM right?
Well its really hard to say, at the highest state, Protoss have the most spells with high APM, they can cast SOO many things at once (Maelstrom, Psi Storm, D-Web, Stasis) and lowest level, PERFECT Probe micro against SCVs/Drones and even more GODLY than Bisu's harassment with units dropped in shuttles everywhere in the map. Pretty hard to stop that.
True but we are talking about two players going against each other already maxed out. And true but I doubt that would ever happen. It would certainly be neat to watch though. In reply to yeti.
On August 31 2010 03:21 Ocular wrote: True but we are talking about two players going against each other already maxed out. And true but I doubt that would ever happen. It would certainly be neat to watch though.
If maxed out as in 200/200 and then going ahead clashing each other, the map also have to be factor. If the area is like narrow, the Terran would have a field day with Tanks Goliath play.
ZvT: Lurkers would now be completely useless, but mutas would be somewhat impossible to stop as T, so I think Zerg would win this matchup.
ZvP: I don't know much how this matchup would be affected. I suppose storms would always be perfect, but they'd be mostly perfectly dodged as well. I think zerg would still have the upper hand because they'd be able so spread their units so well and have perfect flanks every time.
PvT: Probably terran. They'd have the same smartcasting tanks as in SC2, so the tanks would be incredibly strong against the protoss army. Mass reaver/storm drops would be sick, but terran would be able to perfectly run his scvs away every time still.
T>Z Z>P P>T. Historically TvZ is the most imbalanced (53%), while PvT is the most balanced (only 51.6%). Also Terrans have won the most starleague titles, and have had the most dominant players (boxer, Oov, Nada, and Flash) while Zerg has only had Savior and Jaedong, and protoss Bisu and maybe Reach (nal_RA was too inconsistent to be up there with the other bonjwas).
Therefore I'd say Terran's the strongest; they own their favored matchup harder (tvz) and they suck at their unfavored matchup less (tvp)
On August 31 2010 03:39 blagoonga123 wrote: ZvT: Lurkers would now be completely useless, but mutas would be somewhat impossible to stop as T, so I think Zerg would win this matchup.
ZvP: I don't know much how this matchup would be affected. I suppose storms would always be perfect, but they'd be mostly perfectly dodged as well. I think zerg would still have the upper hand because they'd be able so spread their units so well and have perfect flanks every time.
PvT: Probably terran. They'd have the same smartcasting tanks as in SC2, so the tanks would be incredibly strong against the protoss army. Mass reaver/storm drops would be sick, but terran would be able to perfectly run his scvs away every time still.
How about being realistic instead of dreaming up these completely improbable scenarios. Even with eprfect micro mutas would be pretty useless after vessels and a certain number of upgrade marines. And no, perfect splitting and individual muta control isn't gonna mean anything because the mutas would all have to be really close together, if not totally stacked, to be able to all shoot the same marine at the same time before the medics heal him
Also mass reaver and storm drop? wtf? No amount of perfect play is gonna make your tech rushes any less all in or make your workers gather resources faster.....
Btw OP what's the point of imagining a 1000000000 APM player? It's physically impossible to reach that, or anything remotely close to it. How about imagining real players, that would make the discussion slightly more useful and slightly less stupid.
First vid was perfectly microed wraiths with 35 000 APM vs completely unmicroed hydras in really unfavourable terrain (sticking to the bridge half the time) without speed upgrade.
Second video was mutas vs archons, which is useless cause mutas outrange archons so even a lone player microing them in a stack can replicate that (jaedong has many times).
First vid was perfectly microed wraiths with 35 000 APM vs completely unmicroed hydras in really unfavourable terrain (sticking to the bridge half the time) without speed upgrade.
Second video was mutas vs archons, which is useless cause mutas outrange archons so even a lone player microing them in a stack can replicate that (jaedong has many times).
None of the videos are at all relevant
35000 APM? We're talking about optimal play, at theoretical infinite APM.
On August 31 2010 03:55 SubtleArt wrote: T>Z Z>P P>T. Historically TvZ is the most imbalanced (53%), while PvT is the most balanced (only 51.6%). Also Terrans have won the most starleague titles, and have had the most dominant players (boxer, Oov, Nada, and Flash) while Zerg has only had Savior and Jaedong, and protoss Bisu and maybe Reach (nal_RA was too inconsistent to be up there with the other bonjwas).
Therefore I'd say Terran's the strongest; they own their favored matchup harder (tvz) and they suck at their unfavored matchup less (tvp)
On August 31 2010 03:39 blagoonga123 wrote: ZvT: Lurkers would now be completely useless, but mutas would be somewhat impossible to stop as T, so I think Zerg would win this matchup.
ZvP: I don't know much how this matchup would be affected. I suppose storms would always be perfect, but they'd be mostly perfectly dodged as well. I think zerg would still have the upper hand because they'd be able so spread their units so well and have perfect flanks every time.
PvT: Probably terran. They'd have the same smartcasting tanks as in SC2, so the tanks would be incredibly strong against the protoss army. Mass reaver/storm drops would be sick, but terran would be able to perfectly run his scvs away every time still.
How about being realistic instead of dreaming up these completely improbable scenarios. Even with eprfect micro mutas would be pretty useless after vessels and a certain number of upgrade marines. And no, perfect splitting and individual muta control isn't gonna mean anything because the mutas would all have to be really close together, if not totally stacked, to be able to all shoot the same marine at the same time before the medics heal him
Also mass reaver and storm drop? wtf? No amount of perfect play is gonna make your tech rushes any less all in or make your workers gather resources faster.....
Btw OP what's the point of imagining a 1000000000 APM player? It's physically impossible to reach that, or anything remotely close to it. How about imagining real players, that would make the discussion slightly more useful and slightly less stupid.
That is also why I made the second question a more realistic one. And if you don't like it don't post ^_^. Also forget mining and all this stuff we are talking about two armys maxed out in an open playing field.
Those are just some videos I recalled used BWAPI to have an excessive amount of APM to do that kind of "trick". If you talk about having 1000000 APM, those videos are somehow related.
But of course this is all speculatory, no human can reach such high APM. Also, I remember a thread about what race would win in a perfectly played TvZ o PvZ in a perfectly balanced map.
First vid was perfectly microed wraiths with 35 000 APM vs completely unmicroed hydras in really unfavourable terrain (sticking to the bridge half the time) without speed upgrade.
Second video was mutas vs archons, which is useless cause mutas outrange archons so even a lone player microing them in a stack can replicate that (jaedong has many times).
None of the videos are at all relevant
So you came in here to tell us how useless the thread is, thats cool - now please stay silent because *some* actually find the topic interesting.
On topic: Lurkers wouldnt be useless at all, imagine MICROED lurker spines with perfect ling support. 2port wraith would be pretty scary vs z, because wraiths out run ovies perfectly microed. But talking about perfect play is stupid, because for a reaver play to wtfpwn someone you gotta keep the tech not scouted. BUT for the other perfect play to be perfect, you would have to fine the tech. Also you shouldve called the thread, "perfect micro" instead of perfect play, because with perfect overall play noone could make a dual perfect game - unless its a mirror matchup ofc.
Also perfect micro would obsolete scourges vs z and t I believe.
On August 31 2010 04:10 Quasar wrote: Those are just some videos I recalled used BWAPI to have an excessive amount of APM to do that kind of "trick". If you talk about having 1000000 APM, those videos are somehow related.
But of course this is all speculatory, no human can reach such high APM. Also, I remember a thread about what race would win in a perfectly played TvZ o PvZ in a perfectly balanced map.
Sorry I'm on my blackberry so I couldn't see them ;p
On August 31 2010 03:55 SubtleArt wrote: Btw OP what's the point of imagining a 1000000000 APM player? It's physically impossible to reach that, or anything remotely close to it. How about imagining real players, that would make the discussion slightly more useful and slightly less stupid.
Because it's interesting and fun to think about? If you'd like to discuss traditional MU balance, there are plenty of other places to do so.
But on topic thanks for your support and input guys its really interesting and gives me thought on how I could have made the thread better. Keep em coming.
EPT
