Starcrafts strongest race. - Page 6

Xma

United States147 Posts

August 31 2010 20:54 GMT

#101

ehh probably protoss, seems they can do so much more shit with apm and pull of craziest stuff, where as zerg and terran need insane mechanice b4 even attempting any super gosu stuff. ex: at home on good pc i use zerg and do fairly well vs most people, at school on shitty computer with like -100 apm, i still wreck the same people with toss, and half the time just winging strats off the top of my head

this is regarding normal ability

btw...perfect dark archon=potential for 600 pop(likely to just be 400, but still)...greater than any 200 microed army, and this assumes both are extremely microed

with the insane 100000000 apm, i think ehh no idea (zerg could be everywhere at same time, but terran could outrange ton of stuff, and toss could just freeze entire armies and just storm stuff all day)

-xpeh-

Ukraine86 Posts

August 31 2010 21:48 GMT

#102

Wut? AGAIN???

Mobius

Canada1268 Posts

August 31 2010 22:43 GMT

#103

Terran.. If every unit was perfectly microd..

Hidden_MotiveS

Canada2562 Posts

August 31 2010 23:35 GMT

#104

On September 01 2010 01:41 blagoonga123 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 31 2010 03:55 SubtleArt wrote:
T>Z Z>P P>T. Historically TvZ is the most imbalanced (53%), while PvT is the most balanced (only 51.6%). Also Terrans have won the most starleague titles, and have had the most dominant players (boxer, Oov, Nada, and Flash) while Zerg has only had Savior and Jaedong, and protoss Bisu and maybe Reach (nal_RA was too inconsistent to be up there with the other bonjwas).

Therefore I'd say Terran's the strongest; they own their favored matchup harder (tvz) and they suck at their unfavored matchup less (tvp)

On August 31 2010 03:39 blagoonga123 wrote:
ZvT: Lurkers would now be completely useless, but mutas would be somewhat impossible to stop as T, so I think Zerg would win this matchup.

ZvP: I don't know much how this matchup would be affected. I suppose storms would always be perfect, but they'd be mostly perfectly dodged as well. I think zerg would still have the upper hand because they'd be able so spread their units so well and have perfect flanks every time.

PvT: Probably terran. They'd have the same smartcasting tanks as in SC2, so the tanks would be incredibly strong against the protoss army. Mass reaver/storm drops would be sick, but terran would be able to perfectly run his scvs away every time still.

How about being realistic instead of dreaming up these completely improbable scenarios. Even with eprfect micro mutas would be pretty useless after vessels and a certain number of upgrade marines. And no, perfect splitting and individual muta control isn't gonna mean anything because the mutas would all have to be really close together, if not totally stacked, to be able to all shoot the same marine at the same time before the medics heal him

Also mass reaver and storm drop? wtf? No amount of perfect play is gonna make your tech rushes any less all in or make your workers gather resources faster.....

Btw OP what's the point of imagining a 1000000000 APM player? It's physically impossible to reach that, or anything remotely close to it. How about imagining real players, that would make the discussion slightly more useful and slightly less stupid.

Except you could then split your mutas into groups and harass all over the place?
And just because this discussion doesn't adhere to your own arbitrary aesthetic doesn't mean it's a "stupid" discussion. Seriously, how exactly is discussing real players any more or less "useful" than having a fun fluff discussion? Do you even know how to have fun? Do you have any imagination? It must be really sad to be you :/ Poor dude.

Haha, I'll bite. Although you should have stated this in your OP that you just wanted a fun thread for arguing.

Given perfect micro, on flat terrain, I think a protoss would win just about every fight. 49DA's with mind control and feedback is just unstoppable imo. It's instantaneous and has a good range so all spellcasters fall. Then you can fight any 2 supply unit (vulture, tank, dragoon, zealot) armies to a draw using just mind control, and any damage tanking from the DA's / added spells / second mind controls yield a win for the protoss.

The only units that might stand a chance would be large marine or large hydra armies, and even then, the protoss just has to edit his army slightly. All zerg air falls to maelstrom and storm if they bunch, and if they don't, to units like carriers/scouts/dragoons.

I can also imagine stasis being a large problem for any army, given that stasis is instantaneous, each arbiter would get two stasises before being lockdowned/yamatod/emp'd. Let's see your opponent fight with half their army left

.

And lastly, I've seen terran mech fall pretty easily to zealot pushes on flat terrain even when the tanks were spread out (micro maps). The defender's advantage goes away completely given perfect micro as each tank shot would only hit one zealot, and the tanks can't kite.

SubtleArt

2710 Posts

September 01 2010 01:44 GMT

#105

On September 01 2010 08:35 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 01 2010 01:41 blagoonga123 wrote:

a) siege tanks way outrange DA spellcasting range
b) with perfect micro tanks would snipe a lot of them
c) with perfect micro vultures would snipe them preemptively
d) with perfect emp they're useless unless they control or feedback vessels, in which case theyve wasted energy and with perfect micro the tanks snipe only the ones with energy

Xma

United States147 Posts

September 01 2010 01:55 GMT

#106

stasis solves all that ^?, wat is range of both emp and stasis?
+ u could even do like hallucinations of arbiters to screw up emps

dont get point of this thread , seems like u are indirectly asking wat race u should use by finding the "best", if so terran 100% just think of all the amazing players they have compared to z and p

r3z3nd3

Brazil522 Posts

September 01 2010 01:58 GMT

#107

terran, obvious. but the most hard to play

Tazza

Korea (South)1678 Posts

September 01 2010 02:37 GMT

#108

I think the Dark Archon could make 400 protoss army and I think this would definitely be a factor in this

Mortality

United States4790 Posts

September 01 2010 02:52 GMT

#109

On August 31 2010 06:00 Pedo.Bear wrote:
im like 98% sure that 3-3 200/200 mech is the strongest army out there.. i think ive heard day9 say it several times, nuke say it several times, ive read it on tl several times, seen several progames displaying the strength.... and ive used it and feel like its the strongest several times hahaha

Effectively speaking it is. However it's not really truly the strongest. Spellcaster usage can prove highly effective against mech and it tends to boil down a lot to unit ratios: i.e. having the right ratio of units to do optimal damage to the Terran's ratio of vulture/goliath/tank. And also, Battle Cruiser + Tank is Terran's strongest endgame option. All "counters" to it are not very cost efficient.

And at infinite apm, you can imagine situations like a lot of queens combined with ling/hydra/defiler would destroy it if you had enough energy and fast enough hands to do like 30 broodlings all at once and still have clicks left over for darkswarm and plague.

Speculation of what race is best at infinite apm is just that: speculation.

Cambium

United States16368 Posts

September 01 2010 04:54 GMT

#110

ghosts and vessel?

irradiate + emp + cloak + lockdown?

jackofclubs81

United States196 Posts

September 01 2010 05:13 GMT

#111

The game would be completely different, there's no point to thinking about it in "regular" ways. For instance, in ZvT, the Lurker and Defiler are now very weak, whereas the Queen would take a more important role. Terran would go M and M vs P, because mass optical flares would eliminate the Protoss army. Actually, thinking about it, optical flare suddenly becomes a very, very good spell. TvZ would be a medic heavy army with valkyries or SV's and TvP would be essentially a medic heavy SK terran. T would lose to Z because with sufficient zerglings there would be too many units to Optical Flare, and it would stop being cost-effective. TvP would have the Terran win every time because the P would not be able to see the terran army. ZvT would have be Queenling -> UltraQueenling (with maybe some mutas as well). ZvP would win because the Z would have a perfect contain and be able to threaten with drops, hydra busts, etc. So Z>T>P in 1000000 APM situations

Sorry for the big text, I need to work on making paragraphs

b_unnies

3579 Posts

September 01 2010 05:41 GMT

#112

Zerg. Most units at 200 pop

Sunman

20 Posts

September 01 2010 09:39 GMT

#113

I think you have to consider whether they play optimally or just at perfect mechanics. It's a different question because as someone said, the best strategy might just be to drone rush. A lot of people are saying get a ton of one caster then start owning, but if there is perfect strategy involved as well, the opponent would see a timing attack window. The supply might not even reach 200 because a lot of it might just be perfect dragoon range micro or something like that.

vOddy

Sweden402 Posts

September 01 2010 10:49 GMT

#114

It would be awesome to see a Terran go marine medic tank science vessel vs Protoss. He could emp all the templars. But then again, what if Protoss goes Dark Archons to feedback the science veseels? Then the medic marine army would get owned by storm + reavers in shuttles.

Sworn

Canada920 Posts

September 01 2010 11:16 GMT

#115

Nothing would change imo. If you have two equally skilled players the APM doesn't matter as much. At best you would see more harass but they would be able to deal with it easier. I don't think there is much gameplay the current pros would change maybe for APM for harass but definetly not to change their styles because its already refined.

Salteador Neo

Andorra5591 Posts

September 01 2010 11:23 GMT

#116

Zerg wouldnt last until 200 pop or hive lol. Vultures and rines with perfect micro > all.

shurgen

350 Posts

September 01 2010 11:59 GMT

#117

I think the hardest part is imagining what micro would look like "optimal" vs "optimal" play. That and how strategies would change.

Like someone said earlier, mines would lose their non-slowing down toss army before it gets to tank line functions.

One thing that a lot of you guys are doing is saying "well perfect vulture micro = gg." However, you have to keep into consideration what "perfect" ling micro looks like versus a "perfect" vulture. In order to find out what the best perfect race is, it has to be matched up against another "perfect" opponent.

I have a lot of trouble conceptualizing this, but I guess you can say that "if both players make the best possible decisions based off of scouting etc. which race would be ahead." Even then, I can't come to a single conclusion off of that because it is too difficult to imagine a "perfect" play. :x.

Stratos_speAr

United States6959 Posts

September 01 2010 15:28 GMT

#118

On September 01 2010 01:48 wiesel wrote:

Show nested quote +

huh wtf do you even read or think about what you write down?

Poeple throwing around so easily the imbalance term these days makes me sick

ZOMG HE SAID BW WAS IMBALANCED! BURN HIM! WITCH!

Good Lord. No game is perfect. Calm down.

Ocular

Canada141 Posts

September 01 2010 16:37 GMT

#119

Awesome ideas so far guys, some people got the hang of it while others are lacking ;P

I'll be adding a poll shortly for people to vote.

Keep sending in your ideas though.

LolnoobInsanity

United States183 Posts

September 01 2010 16:53 GMT

#120

On August 31 2010 03:14 yeti wrote:
I would say zerg since 1000000 amp = perfect macro (for the race with the hardest macro-mechanic)

note:
A 100000 apm user would be a computer. So a scientific test could be made by pitting comps against each other.

Edit: thx Xiphos. amp not amp.

lol at the edit

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