Who's hot? Bisu's not. - Page 18

On February 20 2011 15:53 l0st_romantic wrote:

Tears of the Moon (forces P to adopt 1 base strategies) is also good.

On February 20 2011 15:53 l0st_romantic wrote:
That is bad for the development of Brood War. Better maps would be maps that have completely different timings and introduce novel concepts, like Monty Hall or Dreamliner. Fortress is another good example. Tears of the Moon (forces P to adopt 1 base strategies) is also good. Bisu would not do well on a map like ToTM, for example, because he is the last protoss I would expect to actually come up with a decent way to deal with the map.

On February 20 2011 15:53 l0st_romantic wrote:

Tears of the Moon (forces P to adopt 1 base strategies) is also good.

On February 20 2011 17:34 dangots0ul wrote:
I like how effort is #7 dispite not playing a game in over 1/2 a year

On February 20 2011 17:21 ArvickHero wrote:

This is where you demonstrate that you don't even know what you're talking about. The map was designed so that Protoss would have no viable way of playing the map, 1 or 2 base. The nat design makes Forge FE unfeasible, and the low mineral patch count in the main (which was 7) made PvZ 1 Base play total shit. There's just no way for Protoss to beat a competent Zerg on that map.

Plus, Bisu said that he had a specially prepared build on that map anyways. Assuming that it wasn't mindgames, it would've meant that Bisu found a way to deal with it (if he hadn't lost to Fantasy we would've saw...)

You say that good maps should introduce novel concepts, and make players adapt to the map? Well guess what, Bisu does fairly well with that. Destination and Medusa were Bisu's playground, yet both introduced "novel concepts". Andromeda, a fairly defensive map w/ an in-base third, Bisu has good stats on. Arkanoid, one of the most "novel maps" you can get, Bisu is 4-1 on. Triathlon, another novel map, Bisu is currently 3-2 on which is pretty good. Monty Hall, a map you mentioned. has Bisu going 8-5 on. Hey Colosseum is a pretty novel map too, Bisu is 7-3 on that. Blitz X, another novel map! Bisu going 6-3 on that. Dreamliner, another map you mentioned, Bisu went 2-1 on. Bisu also 3-0 on Fortress. Hmmmm so many novel maps, but why is Bisu doing so well on all of these if he's so bad??

Because he's not, he's the real thing and one of the best, if not THE best Protoss of BW. Last season he had a bad slump because of a decision making crisis, and now he's back looking damn strong right now.

Jeez, looking at your reasoning, I assume you think Jaedong sucks too? After all, if Bisu's play is haphazard and chaotic (others would just call it aggressive or entertaining), then Jaedong's play must just blow your mind in terms of how "haphazard and chaotic" it is.

On February 20 2011 17:44 Lightwip wrote:

Your other posts are just listing maps where Flash did well and/or Bisu did not do well.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6337366

You love to discredit Bisu talking about how he is only good on certain maps. Yet pre-slump, he was by far the best player on the most balanced map by stats, and he is more capable of overcoming imba than you give him credit for.
Which maps would you even say are protoss favored? Aztec, the map that Bisu stomps on zergs on with 50/50 odds on the map(partially due to the presence of 2 top protoss and 1 declining top zerg)? Circuit breaker? Icarus, with no good P odds? Benzene, whose ZvP only slightly favors P(in large part due to the fact that JD doesn't play on the map while Bisu does)? Bloody Ridge, where protoss gets 2 atrocious MUs? La Mancha, which is exactly the same?
Honestly, EotS and Aztec are the only 2 good P maps among a sea of non-P maps. I think you just want maps that give terrans/Flash a massive boost and make things insanely difficult for protoss/Bisu.

On February 20 2011 06:39 ArvickHero wrote:

Bisu consistently slaughtered Flash and many other Terrans during his "peak" period, whereas Nal_rA never beat Savior for more than 2 games in a row. Bisu has shown his moments of pure brilliance even during his slumps, and during his peak/good form he was able to reverse build order losses and imba maps/disadvantageous situations through his sheer force, much like God Young Ho. Bisu may have been nowhere near as consistent as Jaedong and Flash, but you cannot deny Bisu's "peak play" rivaling that of a bonjwa.

On February 20 2011 17:21 ArvickHero wrote:

This is where you demonstrate that you don't even know what you're talking about. The map was designed so that Protoss would have no viable way of playing the map, 1 or 2 base. The nat design makes Forge FE unfeasible, and the low mineral patch count in the main (which was 7) made PvZ 1 Base play total shit. There's just no way for Protoss to beat a competent Zerg on that map.

Plus, Bisu said that he had a specially prepared build on that map anyways. Assuming that it wasn't mindgames, it would've meant that Bisu found a way to deal with it (if he hadn't lost to Fantasy we would've saw...)

You say that good maps should introduce novel concepts, and make players adapt to the map? Well guess what, Bisu does fairly well with that. Destination and Medusa were Bisu's playground, yet both introduced "novel concepts". Andromeda, a fairly defensive map w/ an in-base third, Bisu has good stats on. Arkanoid, one of the most "novel maps" you can get, Bisu is 4-1 on. Triathlon, another novel map, Bisu is currently 3-2 on which is pretty good. Monty Hall, a map you mentioned. has Bisu going 8-5 on. Hey Colosseum is a pretty novel map too, Bisu is 7-3 on that. Blitz X, another novel map! Bisu going 6-3 on that. Dreamliner, another map you mentioned, Bisu went 2-1 on. Bisu also 3-0 on Fortress. Hmmmm so many novel maps, but why is Bisu doing so well on all of these if he's so bad??

Because he's not, he's the real thing and one of the best, if not THE best Protoss of BW. Last season he had a bad slump because of a decision making crisis, and now he's back looking damn strong right now.

Jeez, looking at your reasoning, I assume you think Jaedong sucks too? After all, if Bisu's play is haphazard and chaotic (others would just call it aggressive or entertaining), then Jaedong's play must just blow your mind in terms of how "haphazard and chaotic" it is.

On February 20 2011 18:20 l0st_romantic wrote:


ALSO:
People were saying what you said about ToTM about Arcadia for TvZ a long while back as well. Super hard for T to hold nat against what was then good (July-level) muta harass, easy third for Z, etc. etc. (record started out 10-0 Z:T)

But now, at any level above C+/B-, I'd reckon that Arcadia is perfectly balanced TvZ. Why? Because T's like Midas and Light eventually figured that shit out.

Map makers didn't make Arcadia to kill TvZ then, and didn't make ToTM to kill PvZ either. It simply weeds out players which know how to come up with good strategies and flexible builds versus players who are rote and mechanical. That's it.

On February 20 2011 19:29 Doraemon wrote:
this thread need to be closed

On February 20 2011 18:10 l0st_romantic wrote:



Arvick, other than Arkanoid, Monty Hall, Fortress, and Dreamliner, none of the other maps mentioned introduced those concepts. They didn't force the progaming community to change their build trees and metagaming to win. And Bisu's records on Monty Hall and Dreamliner are nothing to be proud of. The central issue is that Bisu doesn't invent timings for new map concepts. He doesn't have the sheer system-building ability that Flash does, or Oov or Savior did to compete.

Backing up for a second, instead of dividing players in terms of Zerg, or Terran, or Protoss, think of them in terms of what lets them win. Flash, Savior, and Oov win because they build entire metagame and build order trees that can flex very, very well, and also psychologically pin the opponent into bad spots for the next set of games by getting into their practice cycles. Just look at how Flash did it to Stork in Bacchus 08--he played an anti-carrier build on Katrina which Stork practiced against which Flash countered with a BBS.

Bisu, Jaedong, and I would throw Nada in here as well, win by mechanics and execution. They don't win by making smart mid-late-game decisions. They win by executing strategies with precision or executing them at a higher rhythm than their opponents.

This does not mean one style of player is superior to the other. This, however, does mean that the first type of player advances the metagame a lot more than the second type of player. Dominance by haphazard players does not lead to gameplay revolutions.

Case in point: look at Jaedong's dominance for Zerg versus Savior's dominance for Zerg. One period led a whole lot more strategic innovation than the other period for Zerg. Why? Because Savior won using Zerg in a new way, whereas Jaedong wins by using Zerg in an old way, better.

Nal_Ra and Daezang are examples of P's that win through new styles. Bisu simply takes other people's styles and does them better. There's no shame in that, it doesn't mean he sucks--it simply mean's he wins through instinct rather than brains. Does this make sense?

They don't win by making smart mid-late-game decisions. They win by executing strategies with precision or executing them at a higher rhythm than their opponents.

On February 20 2011 18:20 TwoToneTerran wrote:


Um, Bisu never "slaughtered" Flash. He beat him in very very close series, or lost to him sometimes, when Bisu was at his best. For a couple years Bisu was the slight favorite, and this was Flash when he was nowhere near his peak. If you want to compare 2007-2008 Bisu to 2010 Flash I think you're absolutely insane to say he was just as good.

I mean, from the start of Flash's career until the 2009 WCG -- which is the last time Bisu beat flash, and is absolutely the most favorable I can make this for Bisu -- Flash was ahead of Bisu 10-8. First series they ever played, when Bisu was at his absolute best and expected to beat Flash, flash beat him in 2 OSLs, whereas Bisu only beat him in one MSL. At his very peak, Flash was very close to him. Bisu never "slaughtered" Flash when he was winning titles. He beat Flash when Flash was playing poorly, and that's a far sight from comparing their peaks. Flash at his peak is so far beyond how good he was when he was neck and neck with Bisu, I don't know how you can say Bisu's peak is just as good.

On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote:
yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play.

On February 20 2011 20:34 TwoToneTerran wrote:


You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results.

Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.

On February 20 2011 21:05 Lightwip wrote:

You seem to think that it is absolutely outrageous to think that Flash isn't the GOATest GOAT ever. I'd say his career is still less successful than oov's or Nada's. Nada has every achievement that Flash has, except more Kespa rank placement and 1 more title. Oov has his 'undefeated in finals' record. Boxer arguably had a better career too despite only having 3 titles.
I'd say overall Bisu has the better career if he ever wins a dual title. Regardless of whether or not he does, it's certainly reasonable to compare peaks.
You are not without bias yourself.