If you take a player and assess his fanboys, a lot of times they will express their opinions on the player as if he were at his peak performance, or close to it. Sometimes they'll say their player is in a small slump, that he'll just get out of it. It takes a while before fanboys throw in the towel. Today, I'm going to show you that one such player is never coming back.
Ever.
There's been quite a bit of chatter lately about whether Bisu is making a return to form or whether he's slumping. Indeed, people have even claimed through the 2009-2010 Proleague R5 that Bisu, was, indeed, back. They say that his recent losses are simply a mini-slump, that Bisu, like Citigroup, will, indeed, eventually hit its price target true intrinsic value of 35$/share another OSL/MSL title.
They were wrong. And they are still wrong.
Pop quiz for a second. Which Protoss, right now, would you say is doing "better"--Free or Bisu?
Looking at ELO vs ELO peaks, and then ranking based on the gap, it's apparant that Bisu is going through a lot more than just a bad quarter. Let's just get it out there for now:
Compared to his past performance, Bisu sucks.
First, to assess the validity of the ELO gap ranking method, let's see who it places as the current players who are "hot".
ID Team ELO Peak Gap? Soulkey Stars 2116 2117 1 Tempest KT 2123 2126 3 free Stars 2227 2238 11 RorO FOX 2188 2199 11 Hydra CJ 2097 2108 11 Stats KT 2168 2181 13 Horang2 hite 2139 2153 14 Light MBC 2230 2245 15 Jaedong OZ 2347 2365 18
While most of them are relatively unknown, it is obvious that each of these players is up and coming. They are young, growing firms players--or they are players that are actually resurgent (like Free), or they are people playing at or near their peak potential (Jaedong, Light).
Who is not on there?
Bisu isn't.
Well, you might ask, where is our dear Ninja Toss. Out of the top 40 players by ELO, just how close is he to his own supposed "potential"?
Let's think about some players you might think are slumping harder than Bisu.
July--our watermelon Zerg hasn't played many televised games lately. July, you will say, he MUST be slumping harder than Bisu. Must be. Gotta be.
Weeell, you could say that the lack of televised games has helped July by keeping him from dinging his own ELO even lower, so let's take an active gamer.
Ahh, ForGG. So far away from his glorious MSL run, he has to be performing further away from his peak potential.
Jangbi?
How about Effort? Effort has to suck, his ZvT sucks so much balls, he just went 2-8.
What about Movie? Movie has fallen so far since being incinerated by the Last Bonjwa Flash.
Nope.
Bisu is worse than all of them when he is measured against his own "peak potential". He is the most underperforming stock of them all.
ID Team ELO Peak Gap? Kal STX 2165 2267 102 BeSt SKT 2180 2283 103 sKyHigh CJ 2124 2232 108 Hwasin (Unknown/Retired) 2152 2271 119 fOrGG KT 2143 2263 120 BaBy FOX 2110 2232 122 Stork KHAN 2163 2297 134 Midas FOX 2139 2273 134 YellOw[ArnC](Unknown/Retired) 2089 2226 137 Calm STX 2123 2287 164 JangBi KHAN 2140 2305 165 July STX 2096 2284 188 Bisu SKT 2174 2366 192
My friends, Bisu is at the end of the line. Out of the top 40 players by ELO, Bisu is the furthest away from his best.
And yet, and yet---even when he was "back", even when he was in the proleague--that only puts his gap next to where Yarnc's is today.
Bisu is slumping harder than players who were throwing matches.
Bisu. Is. GONE.
EDIT:
How many games would it take for Bisu to get back to his Peak?
Well, he would have to win 20 games STRAIGHT to get back. Good luck on that one fanboys. In the meantime, three hearty cheers for sweet fanboy tears~
---
There's other cool things you can do with this analysis.
Such as looking at relative racial dominance now vs before. Will do that when I have time.
By most progamers' standards, Bisu had a productive season. By his own standards, not so good. Saying he's slumping harder than all those other players because he's furthest away from his own peak is dumb though. His peak was way higher than all of those guys.
He has a major advantage going forward. His PvZ is easily, by far, without contest, the best—unfortunately, mostly because everybody else is awful at it because its the toughest matchup in Broodwar.
If he can improve in other matchups (the more forgivable matchups as it happens), he can rebound. I don't like it when there are these sorts of authoritative declarations that he can never be good again. He can easily be good again.
I did not know we measured a player's current form by comparing it to his peak. I thought we compared current rating to the current ratings of other players.
Bisu is the guy that slumps for months/years. You could've easily said his time was over after he lost to Mind, but that just isn't true. That being said, I can't quite figure out whether Bisu still has his near-bonjwa level of play left in him. What do I see? + Show Spoiler +
That it's really damn hard to tell whether or not he does.
There is no indication that Bisu isn't "coming back". Will he reach his peak performance again? probably not. Will he reclaim the spot of #1 toss? likely imo.
Aside from today's games, in which he made some mistakes (as did his opponent), his macro was in no way bad. His decision making on the other hand, was at times, but 1 day's worth of games is too much to condemn a player.
His vT has always had flaws, but he has definitely rebounded (at least partially) from the past year where his record left something to be desired.
It didnt take statistical analysis to show that Bisu was slumping. He still has flashes of brilliance like defeating Jaedong on judgement day or the proleague playoff dominance against CJ. He showed some of the best play ever and more starleagues than any other protoss, that is why his peak elo is so high.
As a fan, hes broken out of a real bad slump before and I hope he can do the same. I know he is trying really hard and I will continue to root for him.
Yeah, this op was pretty annoying. The statistics and information are nice, but it would be better if you edited out the pointless Bisu bashing .
Such little faith. Please re-visit this thread in 3-4 months and take a pic of your face plz. I wanna see your expression when you realize how wrong you were and who exactly you questioned. Bisu is solid, strong, reliable and the highest paid progamer (afaik) today (talk about motivation). This man might loose games every once in a while, no one can win every time. He will revolutionize himself as he has done countless times. Every time I hear about a slump I think, wait 3-4 months. Why? Because not only does the test of time prove someone right or wrong but also the fact that some players styles just don't work well with certain maps and a new map pool could change everything around. And Bisu sure the fuck has style. I am not going fan boy here, I actually never liked Bisu's style to much but he is way too talented and skilled to just drop off the face of the map. Give it time. Bisu will succeed.
You've just got to have been watching his games to know his comeback is being over-hyped by desperate fanboys. His multitask is nowhere near what it once was and his play often looks sloppy and aimless. His wins are hardly convincing and his losses are hard to watch. He scored that one freak win over JD and a couple of ace matches where the other team was outcoached (Bisu > Roro *golf clap*) but he is just too inconsistent to be considered anything more than a PvZ sniper these days with adequate PvP.
Well, if anyone didn't know the results of today's WCG, a glance at the sidebar will enlighten them.
I have to agree in general that Bisu is not as solid as he was. At the same time, when your peak used to be the highest ELO peak of all players in the 2300s, even 2200 (which is incredibly respectable) would be a step down by your comparison - even if it put him comfortably in the top 10 by ELO.
He might not be winning a starleague anytime soon or ever at this rate, but pulling up to consistency is not out of the question at all.
How many games would it take for Bisu to get back to his Peak?
Well, he would have to win 20 games STRAIGHT to get back. Good luck on that one fanboys. In the meantime, three hearty cheers for sweet fanboy tears~
How did you calculate this? ELO fluctuates according your opponent's ELO. Unless you had a list of his next 20 opponents and knew their ELOs beforehand?
How many games would it take for Bisu to get back to his Peak?
Well, he would have to win 20 games STRAIGHT to get back. Good luck on that one fanboys. In the meantime, three hearty cheers for sweet fanboy tears~
How did you calculate this? ELO fluctuates according your opponent's ELO. Unless you had a list of his next 20 opponents and knew their ELOs beforehand?
Used the average ELO of all players in the top 40, plugged it into the ELO formula.
On August 19 2010 16:00 nttea wrote: Bye bye bisu! will miss you but not your fans <3.
Do you realize how annoying it is to be a protoss fan? Zerg have had plenty of successful players, including July, Savior(who?) and Jaedong. Imagine if instead of July, it was Kingdom who was almost good enough to beat oov, and Nal_ra was the bonjwa rather than savior. Then Jaedong managed to dethrone this bonjwa and for once the zerg would have a chance to shine, only to find that their star slumps hard, and Bisu is the consistent one who slumps for like 5 seconds after some BS runs. So the only good players end up being Yellow(silver) and inconsistent Jaedong, and after 3 years, it looks like no other star has come about, while free/best etc become consistently ownage players for a long period of time. You would think of Jaedong in the same way. Because honestly, toss never had anyone other than Stork the Silver and Bisu the slumper to represent their race as anything other than inferior. Fanboy attitude is perfectly acceptable IMO. /end rant.
As a Toss fan that got into watching pro-BW super late, Bisu was one of the first "good" Protoss I was exposed to (him and Stork, but Stork is a baller no matter how he plays ingame). It's a bit frustrating to see him doing so poorly compared to what he's capable of and losing to people he should be able to crush. Who knows if he'll ever climb back up, just have to keep watching to find out, I suppose.
I believe this method has a flaw in discerning "resurgent" players - ones that are playing well after a slump or past their peak - and that flaw is that it simply doesn't say enough specifically. Players that have low gaps can be anybody - players currently peaking (e.g. Jaedong), players who are extremely consistent (e.g. Light), players who are on the rise for the first time (e.g. Soulkey), or usually mediocre players who are on a probably luck-based string of wins (e.g. Hydra) Players with large gaps could be players who moved to ACE, players who are slumping (e.g. BaBy), or players who are rising but nowhere near their first peaks (will talk about these).
Soulkey is undoubtedly beginning his first peak. Is he "on the rise?" Definitely. Jaedong is peaking. Is he "on the rise?" I wouldn't really say so, but he is doing very well.
On the other hand, BeSt is listed on the list of players with biggest gaps despite having his recent game list flooded with W's. The only reason BeSt has such a huge gap is because his first peak was much higher.
Hydra and Tempest have low gaps, but their ELOs are low enough that I wouldn't even say they are peaking spectacularly. They have been doing well, no doubt, but that's just a bit better than the mediocre they usually play.
Is BaBy past his peak, never to return? He's at the bottom of the list, right? I feel like Baby, however, will find his rainbow socks.
How well does Bisu have to play in order to be at the top of that list? He needs to suddenly become as good as Flash, as Jaedong. Is that possible? I don't think so. Can he still be an above average player? I don't doubt it.
I considered removing my T1 tag just to avoid any possible anti-fanboy retaliation for this post. But I figured I would just post and deal with any reactions. I don't find this post biased, all I am saying is you should examine closely what your statistical method actually tells you. I would suggest comparing current ELO to ELO from 2 months ago to determine who is "rising."
On August 19 2010 16:13 infinitestory wrote: I believe this method has a flaw in discerning "resurgent" players - ones that are playing well after a slump or past their peak - and that flaw is that it simply doesn't say enough specifically. Players that have low gaps can be anybody - players currently peaking (e.g. Jaedong), players who are extremely consistent (e.g. Light), players who are on the rise for the first time (e.g. Soulkey), or usually mediocre players who are on a probably luck-based string of wins (e.g. Hydra) Players with large gaps could be players who moved to ACE, players who are slumping (e.g. BaBy), or players who are rising but nowhere near their first peaks (will talk about these).
Soulkey is undoubtedly beginning his first peak. Is he "on the rise?" Definitely. Jaedong is peaking. Is he "on the rise?" I wouldn't really say so, but he is doing very well.
On the other hand, BeSt is listed on the list of players with biggest gaps despite having his recent game list flooded with W's. The only reason BeSt has such a huge gap is because his first peak was much higher.
Hydra and Tempest have low gaps, but their ELOs are low enough that I wouldn't even say they are peaking spectacularly. They have been doing well, no doubt, but that's just a bit better than the mediocre they usually play.
Is BaBy past his peak, never to return? He's at the bottom of the list, right? I feel like Baby, however, will find his rainbow socks.
How well does Bisu have to play in order to be at the top of that list? He needs to suddenly become as good as Flash, as Jaedong. Is that possible? I don't think so. Can he still be an above average player? I don't doubt it.
I considered removing my T1 tag just to avoid any possible anti-fanboy retaliation for this post. But I figured I would just post and deal with any reactions. I don't find this post biased, all I am saying is you should examine closely what your statistical method actually tells you. I would suggest comparing current ELO to ELO from 2 months ago to determine who is "rising."
The point of the OP was to point out that it is pointless and utterly retarded to start talking about Bisu as if he was still a "great" player. He isn't. He's merely good, a good proleaguer, a consistent starleaguer, and that's it.
I wish the TL ELO counter had a way to start counting back in months, too.
On August 19 2010 16:00 nttea wrote: Bye bye bisu! will miss you but not your fans <3.
Do you realize how annoying it is to be a protoss fan? Zerg have had plenty of successful players, including July, Savior(who?) and Jaedong. Imagine if instead of July, it was Kingdom who was almost good enough to beat oov, and Nal_ra was the bonjwa rather than savior. Then Jaedong managed to dethrone this bonjwa and for once the zerg would have a chance to shine, only to find that their star slumps hard, and Bisu is the consistent one who slumps for like 5 seconds after some BS runs. So the only good players end up being Yellow(silver) and inconsistent Jaedong, and after 3 years, it looks like no other star has come about, while free/best etc become consistently ownage players for a long period of time. You would think of Jaedong in the same way. Because honestly, toss never had anyone other than Stork the Silver and Bisu the slumper to represent their race as anything other than inferior. Fanboy attitude is perfectly acceptable IMO. /end rant.
Well spoken. I've always thought this must be really frustrating.
Even as a Zerg, I was really hoping for Movie and Snow to pick up where the Dragons left off and showcase some dominant Protoss play. Movie has sublime sair/reaver v. Z when he wants to demonstrate it, and that Snow v. Flash PL game on Fighting Spirit was absolutely sublime. But this seems to have hit a rough patch for now.
I agree that while Bisu still has a match-up that he can be incredibly devastating at (PlantsvZombies LOL); and that his (PlayervPlayer XD) is still very respectable, compared to his top form, or any other top players' form in the last year or so, that he has not been competing at their level any more. Before, he could still outplay (PvTanks) using his other skills, but not anymore. I'd actually say he fulfills the role of a powerful role player with some versatility nowadays, but not as an all-star player anymore.
Edit: When I first opened this thread I actually thought it was a thread that Bisu isn't as good-looking as people thought he is. XD That could be an excellent topic for discussion too. *snickers*
I also find it amusing that these threads always come immediately after bisu loses.
I'd be more convinced that you actually think this way if you made this thread while he was still in the ro16 of both starleagues and wcg. But now it just seems like you want attention.
Bisu did play some very nice games during that period recently during which people were saying he was coming out of his slump. His elo/elo peak gap wouldn't have been very telling though since it was just a few games in a short period. You said it yourself, it would take him a long time to recover his previous statistical form. Obviously you should be comparing his elo right before he started sucking again, not to his PEAK, but to his elo during his main slump. And even then, it's not a matter of the points he gains from his games anyway, but a matter of how well he played which doesn't show up in statistics.
I really do agree though, on the main point. Bisu fan though i am, he's clearly not found whatever it is he lost yet, because there's very little fire in his eyes right now, or anything remarkable in his attitude. His recent losses are getting to him too easily, and he's showing nothing so far of determination to break through. He just looks depressed. Hopefully he's on his way there though, in the long run.
On August 19 2010 16:36 zobz wrote:Bisu fan though i am, he's clearly not found whatever it is he lost yet, because there's very little fire in his eyes right now, or anything remarkable in his attitude. His recent losses are getting to him too easily, and he's showing nothing so far of determination to break through. He just looks depressed. Hopefully he's on his way there though, in the long run.
But a few key losses could be what it takes to snap someone out of a period of sucking. I know that almost losing to an E terran(if not for mine daebak) simply because I played bad after dropping from D+ to low D helped me realize that I needed to pull my shit together. It's probably the same for progamers(as long as they stay confident, or else it could just be a slump).
FUCK IT! his performance in PL play off is WAY better... once we thought he was fully came back despite of the slump in PvT vs Sea... apparently he was not coming back T__T
most of the players in your list are at least in the same year where bisu started his televised games .. wtf are you talking about that free us a young player in the scene??
Your statistics have nothing to do with how handsome and good looking Bisu is so I don't really understand the point of this thread. Unless people like Bisu because of his play...that would be absurd though right?
I really feel bad for Tosses. A Toss hasnt won an SL since 2008 >.< God thats a horrible drought for fans so I really feel for them. They really need a player to rally behind and Bisu did it once, so they are clinging to that >.< That said, Bisu just isn't what he used to be D: and sad thing is I don't see anyone picking up where he left off D: Snow? nah I think he's excellent but not enough to become the future of Toss.
I really hope u truly resurge Bisu but from your interviews it feels like you're not particularly hungry for another title. Flash and Jaedong want to go down as the best rivalry so they have a deep seeded desire to succeed, I just don't see that with my man Bisu...
Hope u come back Bisu but I'm not holding my breath D:
another Bisu hater, how sweet it is! Elo peak gap comparision? Wow, what a great statistical proof! Also those "uknown" players who are "up and coming" but in reality they are just old players who were never good enough? Are you serious?
On August 19 2010 16:54 NB wrote: FUCK IT! his performance in PL play off is WAY better... once we thought he was fully came back despite of the slump in PvT vs Sea... apparently he was not coming back T__T
there's thin line between success and TL shouting SLUMP as we also know from JD and Flash example. Had Bisu defended that hydra all-in it would have been different story.
As a Toss fan, and unashamed Bisu fan, this thread just makes me shake my head. It's just sad that people get their jollies from kicking others while they're down.
Who knows if KTY will ever get back to where he was. Chances are he probably won't. Regardless, you can't take away what he has achieved, and how important he is, and has been to the Toss race (and its supporters).
So what if Bisu fans were prematurely lauding his comeback. Blind optimism/faith is exactly what being a fan is all about!!!
His games were the reason I got into BW, so yeah, not giving up on him ever. Also I think most of his haters are because of his looks, which is quite awesome. Maybe jealous because he plays AND looks way better than you? I dunno.
Lets make a list of points OP made in his huge long thread: Point nr1: OP dont like Bisu Point nr2: ... hmm wait .. yeah thats about it. OP dont like Bisu.
So you really had to make such a long post about you not liking Bisu? Like lol so many other things you could have spend your time on that would had been much more constructively.
Bisu's ELO is higher than everyone's on that list except Best, Free, and Effort, all of which are on the current power rank. All of which are top players right now.
If the gap between his best and where he is now is so great then what does it say about how good he is if where he is now is 6th on power rank? If you give that kind of gap to almost any other player they'll be retired much less top 10 power rank.
Bisu's gap is so big because his peak is #2 ELO of all time; even higher than Jaedong who he managed to beat a month and a half ago.
He's the only Protoss that reached as high as he did and that he can stay relevant for so long even after experiencing difficulties is a testament to him as a player.
If it's so difficult for Bisu we should support him because this is when he needs it.
On August 19 2010 16:02 G5 wrote: Such little faith. Please re-visit this thread in 3-4 months and take a pic of your face plz. I wanna see your expression when you realize how wrong you were and who exactly you questioned. Bisu is solid, strong, reliable and the highest paid progamer (afaik) today (talk about motivation). This man might loose games every once in a while, no one can win every time. He will revolutionize himself as he has done countless times. Every time I hear about a slump I think, wait 3-4 months. Why? Because not only does the test of time prove someone right or wrong but also the fact that some players styles just don't work well with certain maps and a new map pool could change everything around. And Bisu sure the fuck has style. I am not going fan boy here, I actually never liked Bisu's style to much but he is way too talented and skilled to just drop off the face of the map. Give it time. Bisu will succeed.
Your blind optimism aside both jaedong and Flash make more than Bisu. It's like 250mil for flash 220mil for jaedong and 200 or 180 for bisu
On August 19 2010 16:00 nttea wrote: Bye bye bisu! will miss you but not your fans <3.
Do you realize how annoying it is to be a protoss fan? Zerg have had plenty of successful players, including July, Savior(who?) and Jaedong. Imagine if instead of July, it was Kingdom who was almost good enough to beat oov, and Nal_ra was the bonjwa rather than savior. Then Jaedong managed to dethrone this bonjwa and for once the zerg would have a chance to shine, only to find that their star slumps hard, and Bisu is the consistent one who slumps for like 5 seconds after some BS runs. So the only good players end up being Yellow(silver) and inconsistent Jaedong, and after 3 years, it looks like no other star has come about, while free/best etc become consistently ownage players for a long period of time. You would think of Jaedong in the same way. Because honestly, toss never had anyone other than Stork the Silver and Bisu the slumper to represent their race as anything other than inferior. Fanboy attitude is perfectly acceptable IMO. /end rant.
good points i guess, still i wish you "protoss fans" could get someone better to sheer for instead of putting all your hopes in bisu who i believe will never return to even close to his peak.
Tempest is new and up and coming? Free is new? Light, Jaedong? This post could have been more interesting if you didn't seem intent on trying to bait Bisu fans. I'm not even a Bisu fan but I'm glad to see him coming back. The idea you can compare him to his past peak as evidence that he's far from 'back' if back means in form is silly. Worse still is trying to say Tempest is somehow better. Only compared to his own poor history. This is twisting statistics for no good reason.
Edit:
I'll take Bisu over half of the players in the 2250 list and over half of the up and comers (which as I mentioned for some reason includes Light, JD and free ).
On August 19 2010 17:46 ForSC2 wrote: Bisu's ELO is higher than everyone's on that list except Best, Free, and Effort, all of which are on the current power rank. All of which are top players right now.
If the gap between his best and where he is now is so great then what does it say about how good he is if where he is now is 6th on power rank? If you give that kind of gap to almost any other player they'll be retired much less top 10 power rank.
Bisu's gap is so big because his peak is #2 ELO of all time; even higher than Jaedong who he managed to beat a month and a half ago.
He's the only Protoss that reached as high as he did and that he can stay relevant for so long even after experiencing difficulties is a testament to him as a player.
If it's so difficult for Bisu we should support him because this is when he needs it.
Oh brother.
First of all, the power rank is an opinion piece.
Secondly, the whole point is that Bisu used to be #2 in ELO and is now not #2 in ELO. His peak is one point higher than Jaedong's. One point. Compare the differences between current ELO and peak ELO for Bisu and Jaedong. Now compare Bisu with NaDa or GoRush. Which pole is he closer to?
On August 19 2010 18:20 Subversive wrote: Tempest is new and up and coming? Free is new? Light, Jaedong?
On August 19 2010 15:46 l0st_romantic wrote: They are young, growing firms players--or they are players that are actually resurgent (like Free), or they are people playing at or near their peak potential (Jaedong, Light).
On August 19 2010 15:46 l0st_romantic wrote: They are young, growing firms players--or they are players that are actually resurgent (like Free), or they are people playing at or near their peak potential (Jaedong, Light).
Responding to the OP. If he doesn't want it said, he should edit the OP.
On August 19 2010 16:02 G5 wrote: Such little faith. Please re-visit this thread in 3-4 months and take a pic of your face plz. I wanna see your expression when you realize how wrong you were and who exactly you questioned. Bisu is solid, strong, reliable and the highest paid progamer (afaik) today (talk about motivation). This man might loose games every once in a while, no one can win every time. He will revolutionize himself as he has done countless times. Every time I hear about a slump I think, wait 3-4 months. Why? Because not only does the test of time prove someone right or wrong but also the fact that some players styles just don't work well with certain maps and a new map pool could change everything around. And Bisu sure the fuck has style. I am not going fan boy here, I actually never liked Bisu's style to much but he is way too talented and skilled to just drop off the face of the map. Give it time. Bisu will succeed.
Your blind optimism aside both jaedong and Flash make more than Bisu. It's like 250mil for flash 220mil for jaedong and 200 or 180 for bisu
You mean the list that Milkis he published in his blog because he didn't think it was reliable info? You realize that the list is bullshit right?
On August 19 2010 18:20 Subversive wrote: Tempest is new and up and coming? Free is new? Light, Jaedong?
On August 19 2010 15:46 l0st_romantic wrote: They are young, growing firms players--or they are players that are actually resurgent (like Free), or they are people playing at or near their peak potential (Jaedong, Light).
Responding to the OP. If he doesn't want it said, he should edit the OP.
Uh, I was trying to show you that you didn't read the OP properly.
On August 19 2010 18:20 Subversive wrote: Tempest is new and up and coming? Free is new? Light, Jaedong?
On August 19 2010 15:46 l0st_romantic wrote: They are young, growing firms players--or they are players that are actually resurgent (like Free), or they are people playing at or near their peak potential (Jaedong, Light).
Responding to the OP. If he doesn't want it said, he should edit the OP.
Uh, I was trying to show you that you didn't read the OP properly.
Actually, unlike ZvZ and TvT, PvPs can measure protosses really well. And let's check out Bisu:
After his win against Kal in SKT1 vs STX day 1, he won 0 PvPs.
He is 0-2 against Stats, 1-3 against Kal (on 0-3 in last 3 games), 0-1 against free, fortunately 2-0 against Pure, 0-0 against JangBi and Stork, and finally 0-1 against Much in 2010.
And this makes him what? I think it's something like 3-7 against top Protosses.
At least he's 4-0 against Snow, 2-1 against Movie, 0-1 against Shuttle, 0-1 against Violet, 0-1 against Tempest. This makes him 6-4 against lower class Protosses.
This is enough to explain that Bisu is in a slump.
Oh lost_romantic!!—wait, I forgot that you are postmodern and therefore use 0 instead of o, to show that you are indeed unique and clever like e. e. cummings
Restart: Oh, l0st_romantic!! I sing this ode to thee! Thy fervent eyes burn with the intensity of Caina, and even the specks of brown are not dirtied for they hold omniscient sight! Thy green complexion befits thee well, for the tinge of spring shoots strike into the heart of all fans who do not worship the Godly Flash (and therefore must be morons and dastardly heaps of misery)! Even thy hair, short and limp as they are, outshines that of Bisu’s (which for comparison, I included in the appendix of this ode, to emphasize Flash’s obvious superiority)—look that the sweet slope of those Flash bangs, so clearly a work of God.
Is it a wonder that you should have believed in intelligent design? For how could mere chance create a creature as glorious and faultless in his logic as thou!
On August 19 2010 18:48 Metalwing wrote: Actually, unlike ZvZ and TvT, PvPs can measure protosses really well. And let's check out Bisu:
[snip]
This is enough to explain that Bisu is in a slump.
If PvP is that good a measure of Protossness, then does this make Shuttle and Horang2 top-tier toss?
Also, Bisu's PvP ELO is still fourth after Kal, Shuttle and Horang2. Maybe what you mean is that Bisu slumping seems to be only slightly better than most other protosses playing normally.
On August 19 2010 16:00 nttea wrote: Bye bye bisu! will miss you but not your fans <3.
Do you realize how annoying it is to be a protoss fan? (ranting) /end rant.
I hate being a protoss fan sometimes, and I completely agree with you, people hate on the protoss stars a lot more than is necessary. I mean, Bisu AND Stork are on a downhill slide, and who's left to keep the newbie 'tosses even with the big boys in matchup evolutions? Kal? free? Mmmph.
On August 19 2010 16:00 nttea wrote: Bye bye bisu! will miss you but not your fans <3.
Do you realize how annoying it is to be a protoss fan? (ranting) /end rant.
I hate being a protoss fan sometimes, and I completely agree with you, people hate on the protoss stars a lot more than is necessary. I mean, Bisu AND Stork are on a downhill slide, and who's left to keep the newbie 'tosses even with the big boys in matchup evolutions? Kal? free? Mmmph.
On August 19 2010 18:48 Metalwing wrote: Actually, unlike ZvZ and TvT, PvPs can measure protosses really well. And let's check out Bisu:
[snip]
This is enough to explain that Bisu is in a slump.
If PvP is that good a measure of Protossness, then does this make Shuttle and Horang2 top-tier toss?
Also, Bisu's PvP ELO is still fourth after Kal, Shuttle and Horang2. Maybe what you mean is that Bisu slumping seems to be only slightly better than most other protosses playing normally.
Nope, but when Bisu was on his peak, his PvP record was much better than Kal, Horang2 and Shuttle.
But mostly when a protoss player is hot or not, his PvPs act in the same way. Unlike ZvZ and TvT.
Tell me ANY player that does play better PvZ than Kim Taek Yong right now. Yes, Bisu is slumping and even most fanboys will admit that - his undefeatable PvP which was like 6 months ago is gone - and PvT never was his biggest strenght except winning Flash a few times due to being able to spot the holes in his play.
But your comparison doesn't make any sense at all since Bisu has the 3rd highest elo peak ever - guess what, he was even down to less than 2100 pts - means despite not being a Top10 player right now he's by no means a bad player. Also you call ForGG hotter since he is closer to his - way worse - ELO peak than Bisu, but Bisu having a higher current elo. Yes, ForGG >>>> Bisu. Less > more. Same with "soulkey" etc etc, yes they're up and comers but in YOUR book someone with 2050 elo high and 2050 elo current would be the "hottest player in the world right now" even if he only 3-0'ed Frozen to do so...
On August 19 2010 22:29 iNfeRnaL wrote: Tell me ANY player that does play better PvZ than Kim Taek Yong right now. Yes, Bisu is slumping and even most fanboys will admit that - his undefeatable PvP which was like 6 months ago is gone - and PvT never was his biggest strenght except winning Flash a few times due to being able to spot the holes in his play.
But your comparison doesn't make any sense at all since Bisu has the 3rd highest elo peak ever - guess what, he was even down to less than 2100 pts - means despite not being a Top10 player right now he's by no means a bad player. Also you call ForGG hotter since he is closer to his - way worse - ELO peak than Bisu, but Bisu having a higher current elo. Yes, ForGG >>>> Bisu. Less > more. Same with "soulkey" etc etc, yes they're up and comers but in YOUR book someone with 2050 elo high and 2050 elo current would be the "hottest player in the world right now" even if he only 3-0'ed Frozen to do so...
Those are exactly my thoughts, Bisu's peak is higher than Jaedong's, and how many players can consistently play at a higher level than Jaedong? One.
I read the title and assumed the post was about how attractive bisu was and was about to come and flame you for it. Given it's actually about performance... fair enough :p
I don't know who's nuts your on but I suggest you get off asap. What has Bisu done to you? Cause your whining about him like he stole your favourite teddy bear. Instead of bitching about a toss who forever changed the gameplay of sc you should go cry more about how you have no friends and reasons like this are more then likely the reason for which.
Lol I'm only playing. But on a serious note no matter how hard he's slumping or whether he's back or not he was still a toss innovator and inspiration and people only remember players in their peak regardless. And bisu's peak was quite noteworthy.
On August 20 2010 01:18 prototype. wrote: It's not bisu... it's the horrible maps
For Bisu haha. Even some of the Protoss favored maps, like Match Point, Bisu doesn't do very well on. They just don't work for Bisu's style. They'll need super harass friendly maps like Destination and Medusa again for Bisu lol..
I haven't even seen the major peak period of Bisu, so I just comment from what I've seen in his recent season - and I'm not impressed at all. He looks like someone capable of being really great, but not working hard enough for it, and also throwing away games with cheesy play. He doesn't seem primarily focused on his Starcraft carrier, I noticed that in the brain diagram with his main thoughts in one of the ceremonies. He really should get more serious and focused and not be distracted by useless stardom.
Well, to be fair, he's done a lot in his career. Not everyone is like Flash who's all like iMa Be GUnA WIN Al TEH leeguz, and its silly to judge people to those standards. Who cares? The guy won his leagues, made his money, made significant progress in PvZ, maybe he doesnt care about being the top player, he's just going along at his pace.
The last 2 months, Bisu have beaten Jaedong, Roro, "Clam" and Action (twice), and he have only lost to Effort. So he's 4(5)-1 against pretty much the top 5 Zergs right now. I don't think he have ever been better at PvZ than he is right now. He have a solid PvP on top of that, definately on par with Kal, Stats and the other top Protosses. The only thing you can really blame is his PvT, but you have to remember that Bisu is the revolutionist. When he was at his peak, noone had figured out his weaknesses yet, and now it seems his PvT had some major flaws. I think that if Bisu and Best put their minds together, and tried to learn from eachother, that we would have 2 solid Protosses in the future. But being a Protoss player myself, they have probably tried and failed. There's a reason why there are no Protoss who is Ace class at all matchups, because unlike for the other races, the Protoss matchups requires way different mentalities. PvZ is more about defense and picking your opponent apart little by little. PvT on the other hand is more about expanding really fast, and putting pressure on your opponent. In PvT you have a resource-advantage, but a weaker army-force. In PvZ, you have a resource disadvantage but a stronger army.
think the cow's been milked(bisu that is). i only remember him doing innovative things, reaver/sair. after that people caught on and i guess he fell off. he served his purpose, no such thing as a slump (when someone says slump it irritates me, because he'll never regain his status, seriously) even if he does win consecutively(not talking about going 10-0wtf, doesnt mean he'll be at his prime again). people said boxer was in a slump, pfffft.
also, after a while bisu's play started to become boring, thus i started watching foreigners play.
He wasn't exactly a revolutionary. I remember a Kingdom interview where he explained that BeSt actually came up with all these strategies, but only Bisu had the multitasking ability to pull it off.
You cant say bisu hasnt been a valuable team asset in recent SKT history.. and also you cant hide the fact that he was worse off some months back which is in turn reflected in ELO which is know for having a "Delay" in showing real skill. I have to say that the tone of the article is pretty agressive becouse if your point is that Bisu is gone then its not entirely true, becouse in the latest matches he has been seen playing much better and more consistently than most tosses, yeah even free. If your point is that the semi bonjwa uber player bisu is gone then you are right he is no where near the level of play he had at this time last year.. which was about some time (a couple of months) before he got eliminated out of the msl by a now lackluster but then up and coming player: shine.
On August 20 2010 04:16 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: He wasn't exactly a revolutionary. I remember a Kingdom interview where he explained that BeSt actually came up with all these strategies, but only Bisu had the multitasking ability to pull it off.
Wait, so best is the real PvZ bonjwa? I would have never guessed.
On August 20 2010 04:16 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: He wasn't exactly a revolutionary. I remember a Kingdom interview where he explained that BeSt actually came up with all these strategies, but only Bisu had the multitasking ability to pull it off.
That still makes him the revolutionary because he's the first one to make said strategies viable.
We'll be alright. When the guy's on his style, he's flawless. They play so many games. Imagine if we just had like 3/4 less games. I'd think that'd fair to say to everyone how easy it could be to burn out playing at the intensity they have to.
On August 20 2010 04:16 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: He wasn't exactly a revolutionary. I remember a Kingdom interview where he explained that BeSt actually came up with all these strategies, but only Bisu had the multitasking ability to pull it off.
Wait, so best is the real PvZ bonjwa? I would have never guessed.
On August 20 2010 03:46 night terrors wrote: Well, to be fair, he's done a lot in his career. Not everyone is like Flash who's all like iMa Be GUnA WIN Al TEH leeguz, and its silly to judge people to those standards. Who cares? The guy won his leagues, made his money, made significant progress in PvZ, maybe he doesnt care about being the top player, he's just going along at his pace.
Yeah, I have a feeling he's lost the will to be the best and is just satisfied being paid the best or close to it.. I've seen a lot of stars in sports behave similarly.. Tracy McGrady, BJ Penn, David Tua, Shawn Kemp and Zab Judah just off the top of my head are all examples of players that were at one time or had the potential to be the best, but then just said fuck it i'll take the check.
Well, as a Kim Taek Yong fan (just a fan, not a fanboy!), I can also agree to the fact that he is "gone."
However, he will still have one of the biggest names in the SC community, for much time to come (and that's something we can all agree on). ELO score or a legacy? I choose legacy. And, that is exactly what Bisu has built for himself. Of course, anyone wants to go out while being at the top and not in some major slump (or whatever it is that Bisu is in). Regardless of this, his PvZ revolutionized the way PvZ is played on many levels. For example, his DT/Sair combo sparked a flame in many PvZ players who had once thought PvZ was "imbalanced." Or, unforgettably, how he demolished some of the best Zergs in the scene time after time, when people had claimed that such zergs were unstoppable. Next, his opening in PvT that he created (yes, he did create this build and now many Protoss players use this opening) -- the infamous 10-15 gate. So, I leave you with this: He is "gone" but his legacy will never be "gone."
On August 20 2010 03:42 figq wrote: He doesn't seem primarily focused on his Starcraft carrier, I noticed that in the brain diagram with his main thoughts in one of the ceremonies. He really should get more serious and focused and not be distracted by useless stardom.
This, Bisu spends most of his days thinking about his hair, skin, clothes, sleeping, and the A-girls. Compare it to Jaedong's or Flash's top priorities (I HATE LOSING! was Jaedong's if I remember correctly), and it's clear why Bisu will not return to form with his current mindset.
On August 20 2010 03:42 figq wrote: He doesn't seem primarily focused on his Starcraft carrier, I noticed that in the brain diagram with his main thoughts in one of the ceremonies. He really should get more serious and focused and not be distracted by useless stardom.
This, Bisu spends most of his days thinking about his hair, skin, clothes, sleeping, and the A-girls. Compare it to Jaedong's or Flash's top priorities (I HATE LOSING! was Jaedong's if I remember correctly), and it's clear why Bisu will not return to form with his current mindset.
Are you pulling these facts out of your ass my friend?
On August 20 2010 03:42 figq wrote: He doesn't seem primarily focused on his Starcraft carrier, I noticed that in the brain diagram with his main thoughts in one of the ceremonies. He really should get more serious and focused and not be distracted by useless stardom.
This, Bisu spends most of his days thinking about his hair, skin, clothes, sleeping, and the A-girls. Compare it to Jaedong's or Flash's top priorities (I HATE LOSING! was Jaedong's if I remember correctly), and it's clear why Bisu will not return to form with his current mindset.
Are you pulling these facts out of your ass my friend?
Or am i being trolled?
You are not being trolled, unfortunately. The man speaks the truth, or at least based on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=138028 (scroll down to the brains) Clear correlation between people being in good shape atm, and their thoughts - usually focused on it.
That said, I should correct my first post, of course Bisu doesn't have to be good, if he doesn't want to be, and he has full right to just milk out his past success. But if he wants to actually still be good - and I think he could - he just needs to concentrate on that.
On August 20 2010 03:42 figq wrote: He doesn't seem primarily focused on his Starcraft carrier, I noticed that in the brain diagram with his main thoughts in one of the ceremonies. He really should get more serious and focused and not be distracted by useless stardom.
This, Bisu spends most of his days thinking about his hair, skin, clothes, sleeping, and the A-girls. Compare it to Jaedong's or Flash's top priorities (I HATE LOSING! was Jaedong's if I remember correctly), and it's clear why Bisu will not return to form with his current mindset.
Are you pulling these facts out of your ass my friend?
Or am i being trolled?
You are not being trolled, unfortunately. The man speaks the truth, or at least based on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=138028 (scroll down to the brains) Clear correlation between people being in good shape atm, and their thoughts - usually focused on it.
That said, I should correct my first post, of course Bisu doesn't have to be good, if he doesn't want to be, and he has full right to just milk out his past success. But if he wants to actually still be good - and I think he could - he just needs to concentrate on that.
uhhhh you pulled all the non-sc ones from bisu's and compared them to a single example.
1 - I want to go on vacation... 2 - Leta is a cutie 3 - Hiya keeps singing in the dormitories. It's stressful and it's noise pollution. 4 - Driving License 5 - My Investment Account 6 - Soccer 7 - Flash [T/N: The player drew in a bubble instead of the dot here] 8 - The Future 9 - Europe Backpacking Trip 10 - Table Tennis 11 - Let's exercise! Work Out! 12 - Army 13 - Marry for Love 14 - 15 - Friends 16 - I HATE LOSING
1 - Watch Celebrities 2 - Hairstyle 3 - Skin Care 4 - Go to the Beach 5 - Care for my looks 6 - Soccer 7 - Win the Proleague 8 - Get Buff 9 - Miss A 10 - I'm Sleepy.. Sleep. 11 - Dress Well 12 - Make Boy and Girl friends 13 - Worries about Military 14 - Contract Negotiations 15 - Exercise 16 - Win the Starleague
by that logic, jaedong spends all day thinking about the army and marrying and hiya singing and table tennis, and that bisu focuses on winning the proleague and starleague, therefore jaedong clearly does not possess the killer mindset of a champion.
On August 19 2010 17:06 Yxes2211 wrote: I really feel bad for Tosses. A Toss hasnt won an SL since 2008 >.< God thats a horrible drought for fans so I really feel for them. They really need a player to rally behind and Bisu did it once, so they are clinging to that >.< That said, Bisu just isn't what he used to be D: and sad thing is I don't see anyone picking up where he left off D: Snow? nah I think he's excellent but not enough to become the future of Toss.
I really hope u truly resurge Bisu but from your interviews it feels like you're not particularly hungry for another title. Flash and Jaedong want to go down as the best rivalry so they have a deep seeded desire to succeed, I just don't see that with my man Bisu...
Hope u come back Bisu but I'm not holding my breath D:
DAMN why aren't protosses WINNING?!?! zerg and terran imba? seriously why are tosses not winning as much, historically they aren't as accomplished as terran and zerg. >
On August 19 2010 17:06 Yxes2211 wrote: I really feel bad for Tosses. A Toss hasnt won an SL since 2008 >.< God thats a horrible drought for fans so I really feel for them. They really need a player to rally behind and Bisu did it once, so they are clinging to that >.< That said, Bisu just isn't what he used to be D: and sad thing is I don't see anyone picking up where he left off D: Snow? nah I think he's excellent but not enough to become the future of Toss.
I really hope u truly resurge Bisu but from your interviews it feels like you're not particularly hungry for another title. Flash and Jaedong want to go down as the best rivalry so they have a deep seeded desire to succeed, I just don't see that with my man Bisu...
Hope u come back Bisu but I'm not holding my breath D:
DAMN why aren't protosses WINNING?!?! zerg and terran imba? seriously why are tosses not winning as much, historically they aren't as accomplished as terran and zerg. >
Cause' Toss are the OP race remember?... when toss wins its epic.. thats why the mantoss is the mantoss he was the only one toss standing and he got through everything imbalances and islandmaps and everything...
On August 19 2010 17:06 Yxes2211 wrote: I really feel bad for Tosses. A Toss hasnt won an SL since 2008 >.< God thats a horrible drought for fans so I really feel for them. They really need a player to rally behind and Bisu did it once, so they are clinging to that >.< That said, Bisu just isn't what he used to be D: and sad thing is I don't see anyone picking up where he left off D: Snow? nah I think he's excellent but not enough to become the future of Toss.
I really hope u truly resurge Bisu but from your interviews it feels like you're not particularly hungry for another title. Flash and Jaedong want to go down as the best rivalry so they have a deep seeded desire to succeed, I just don't see that with my man Bisu...
Hope u come back Bisu but I'm not holding my breath D:
DAMN why aren't protosses WINNING?!?! zerg and terran imba? seriously why are tosses not winning as much, historically they aren't as accomplished as terran and zerg. >
I think it's just that most of the toss suck. Even among the good ones, Best/free etc just aren't as good as Fantasy/Sea or Effort/Zero right now. Also, Flash and Jaedong are a lot better than Bisu and Stork, the S class of protoss when they were at their peak. When your race's stars suck, what motivation will the littluns have?
On August 19 2010 17:06 Yxes2211 wrote: I really feel bad for Tosses. A Toss hasnt won an SL since 2008 >.< God thats a horrible drought for fans so I really feel for them. They really need a player to rally behind and Bisu did it once, so they are clinging to that >.< That said, Bisu just isn't what he used to be D: and sad thing is I don't see anyone picking up where he left off D: Snow? nah I think he's excellent but not enough to become the future of Toss.
I really hope u truly resurge Bisu but from your interviews it feels like you're not particularly hungry for another title. Flash and Jaedong want to go down as the best rivalry so they have a deep seeded desire to succeed, I just don't see that with my man Bisu...
Hope u come back Bisu but I'm not holding my breath D:
DAMN why aren't protosses WINNING?!?! zerg and terran imba? seriously why are tosses not winning as much, historically they aren't as accomplished as terran and zerg. >
Most toss "noob" advantages can be negated with mechanics, but most toss "pro" skills have to be acquired through game sense. Korean players usually emphasize the former rather than latter, which is why Korean Ts dominate amateurs and foreign Ps were very predominant.
On August 20 2010 03:42 figq wrote: He doesn't seem primarily focused on his Starcraft carrier, I noticed that in the brain diagram with his main thoughts in one of the ceremonies. He really should get more serious and focused and not be distracted by useless stardom.
This, Bisu spends most of his days thinking about his hair, skin, clothes, sleeping, and the A-girls. Compare it to Jaedong's or Flash's top priorities (I HATE LOSING! was Jaedong's if I remember correctly), and it's clear why Bisu will not return to form with his current mindset.
Are you pulling these facts out of your ass my friend?
Or am i being trolled?
You are not being trolled, unfortunately. The man speaks the truth, or at least based on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=138028 (scroll down to the brains) Clear correlation between people being in good shape atm, and their thoughts - usually focused on it.
That said, I should correct my first post, of course Bisu doesn't have to be good, if he doesn't want to be, and he has full right to just milk out his past success. But if he wants to actually still be good - and I think he could - he just needs to concentrate on that.
uhhhh you pulled all the non-sc ones from bisu's and compared them to a single example.
1 - I want to go on vacation... 2 - Leta is a cutie 3 - Hiya keeps singing in the dormitories. It's stressful and it's noise pollution. 4 - Driving License 5 - My Investment Account 6 - Soccer 7 - Flash [T/N: The player drew in a bubble instead of the dot here] 8 - The Future 9 - Europe Backpacking Trip 10 - Table Tennis 11 - Let's exercise! Work Out! 12 - Army 13 - Marry for Love 14 - 15 - Friends 16 - I HATE LOSING
1 - Watch Celebrities 2 - Hairstyle 3 - Skin Care 4 - Go to the Beach 5 - Care for my looks 6 - Soccer 7 - Win the Proleague 8 - Get Buff 9 - Miss A 10 - I'm Sleepy.. Sleep. 11 - Dress Well 12 - Make Boy and Girl friends 13 - Worries about Military 14 - Contract Negotiations 15 - Exercise 16 - Win the Starleague
by that logic, jaedong spends all day thinking about the army and marrying and hiya singing and table tennis, and that bisu focuses on winning the proleague and starleague, therefore jaedong clearly does not possess the killer mindset of a champion.
>_>
IMO, "I hate losing" > "Win the Starleague". It's much more primitive, but at its core, it says so much more about JD's personality; it shows determination to be the best, regardless of what you're doing. In addition, JD thinks about Flash, meaning he knows that he must not let his resolve falter if he wants to be #1. Bisu had a rival once (he declared it to be Stork), but that fire doesn't seem to be there. Hell, even Stork seems to have less fire these days.
It really is more than just that. Even reading his interviews and JD/Flash's, you can see differences in their mindsets. Flash/JD are ALWAYS things along the lines of "I will beat my opponent whoever it is" or "Once I got my head in the game, I had complete control," whereas Bisu is more along the lings of "I got lucky" or "I need to practice more" (almost every progamer says they need to practice more, but Bisu sounds more uncertain of himself)
On August 20 2010 03:42 figq wrote: He doesn't seem primarily focused on his Starcraft carrier, I noticed that in the brain diagram with his main thoughts in one of the ceremonies. He really should get more serious and focused and not be distracted by useless stardom.
This, Bisu spends most of his days thinking about his hair, skin, clothes, sleeping, and the A-girls. Compare it to Jaedong's or Flash's top priorities (I HATE LOSING! was Jaedong's if I remember correctly), and it's clear why Bisu will not return to form with his current mindset.
Are you pulling these facts out of your ass my friend?
Or am i being trolled?
You are not being trolled, unfortunately. The man speaks the truth, or at least based on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=138028 (scroll down to the brains) Clear correlation between people being in good shape atm, and their thoughts - usually focused on it.
That said, I should correct my first post, of course Bisu doesn't have to be good, if he doesn't want to be, and he has full right to just milk out his past success. But if he wants to actually still be good - and I think he could - he just needs to concentrate on that.
uhhhh you pulled all the non-sc ones from bisu's and compared them to a single example.
1 - I want to go on vacation... 2 - Leta is a cutie 3 - Hiya keeps singing in the dormitories. It's stressful and it's noise pollution. 4 - Driving License 5 - My Investment Account 6 - Soccer 7 - Flash [T/N: The player drew in a bubble instead of the dot here] 8 - The Future 9 - Europe Backpacking Trip 10 - Table Tennis 11 - Let's exercise! Work Out! 12 - Army 13 - Marry for Love 14 - 15 - Friends 16 - I HATE LOSING
1 - Watch Celebrities 2 - Hairstyle 3 - Skin Care 4 - Go to the Beach 5 - Care for my looks 6 - Soccer 7 - Win the Proleague 8 - Get Buff 9 - Miss A 10 - I'm Sleepy.. Sleep. 11 - Dress Well 12 - Make Boy and Girl friends 13 - Worries about Military 14 - Contract Negotiations 15 - Exercise 16 - Win the Starleague
by that logic, jaedong spends all day thinking about the army and marrying and hiya singing and table tennis, and that bisu focuses on winning the proleague and starleague, therefore jaedong clearly does not possess the killer mindset of a champion.
>_>
IMO, "I hate losing" > "Win the Starleague". It's much more primitive, but at its core, it says so much more about JD's personality; it shows determination to be the best, regardless of what you're doing. In addition, JD thinks about Flash, meaning he knows that he must not let his resolve falter if he wants to be #1. Bisu had a rival once (he declared it to be Stork), but that fire doesn't seem to be there. Hell, even Stork seems to have less fire these days.
It really is more than just that. Even reading his interviews and JD/Flash's, you can see differences in their mindsets. Flash/JD are ALWAYS things along the lines of "I will beat my opponent whoever it is" or "Once I got my head in the game, I had complete control," whereas Bisu is more along the lings of "I got lucky" or "I need to practice more" (almost every progamer says they need to practice more, but Bisu sounds more uncertain of himself)
I never thought of it, but maybe the fall of Stork also left Bisu with less to strive for. A rivalry does push a player to work harder, and it's not there for Bisu. He's had a resurgence before though, he can do it again. His skills haven't left him yet.
On August 20 2010 03:42 figq wrote: He doesn't seem primarily focused on his Starcraft carrier, I noticed that in the brain diagram with his main thoughts in one of the ceremonies. He really should get more serious and focused and not be distracted by useless stardom.
This, Bisu spends most of his days thinking about his hair, skin, clothes, sleeping, and the A-girls. Compare it to Jaedong's or Flash's top priorities (I HATE LOSING! was Jaedong's if I remember correctly), and it's clear why Bisu will not return to form with his current mindset.
Are you pulling these facts out of your ass my friend?
Or am i being trolled?
You are not being trolled, unfortunately. The man speaks the truth, or at least based on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=138028 (scroll down to the brains) Clear correlation between people being in good shape atm, and their thoughts - usually focused on it.
That said, I should correct my first post, of course Bisu doesn't have to be good, if he doesn't want to be, and he has full right to just milk out his past success. But if he wants to actually still be good - and I think he could - he just needs to concentrate on that.
uhhhh you pulled all the non-sc ones from bisu's and compared them to a single example.
1 - I want to go on vacation... 2 - Leta is a cutie 3 - Hiya keeps singing in the dormitories. It's stressful and it's noise pollution. 4 - Driving License 5 - My Investment Account 6 - Soccer 7 - Flash [T/N: The player drew in a bubble instead of the dot here] 8 - The Future 9 - Europe Backpacking Trip 10 - Table Tennis 11 - Let's exercise! Work Out! 12 - Army 13 - Marry for Love 14 - 15 - Friends 16 - I HATE LOSING
1 - Watch Celebrities 2 - Hairstyle 3 - Skin Care 4 - Go to the Beach 5 - Care for my looks 6 - Soccer 7 - Win the Proleague 8 - Get Buff 9 - Miss A 10 - I'm Sleepy.. Sleep. 11 - Dress Well 12 - Make Boy and Girl friends 13 - Worries about Military 14 - Contract Negotiations 15 - Exercise 16 - Win the Starleague
by that logic, jaedong spends all day thinking about the army and marrying and hiya singing and table tennis, and that bisu focuses on winning the proleague and starleague, therefore jaedong clearly does not possess the killer mindset of a champion.
>_>
IMO, "I hate losing" > "Win the Starleague". It's much more primitive, but at its core, it says so much more about JD's personality; it shows determination to be the best, regardless of what you're doing. In addition, JD thinks about Flash, meaning he knows that he must not let his resolve falter if he wants to be #1. Bisu had a rival once (he declared it to be Stork), but that fire doesn't seem to be there. Hell, even Stork seems to have less fire these days.
It really is more than just that. Even reading his interviews and JD/Flash's, you can see differences in their mindsets. Flash/JD are ALWAYS things along the lines of "I will beat my opponent whoever it is" or "Once I got my head in the game, I had complete control," whereas Bisu is more along the lings of "I got lucky" or "I need to practice more" (almost every progamer says they need to practice more, but Bisu sounds more uncertain of himself)
I never thought of it, but maybe the fall of Stork also left Bisu with less to strive for. A rivalry does push a player to work harder, and it's not there for Bisu. He's had a resurgence before though, he can do it again. His skills haven't left him yet.
I actually agree here. He needs to stop looking for the rival in the mirror. Maybe Kal? Or maybe if Kal was less ugly?
On August 20 2010 03:42 figq wrote: He doesn't seem primarily focused on his Starcraft carrier, I noticed that in the brain diagram with his main thoughts in one of the ceremonies. He really should get more serious and focused and not be distracted by useless stardom.
This, Bisu spends most of his days thinking about his hair, skin, clothes, sleeping, and the A-girls. Compare it to Jaedong's or Flash's top priorities (I HATE LOSING! was Jaedong's if I remember correctly), and it's clear why Bisu will not return to form with his current mindset.
Are you pulling these facts out of your ass my friend?
Or am i being trolled?
You are not being trolled, unfortunately. The man speaks the truth, or at least based on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=138028 (scroll down to the brains) Clear correlation between people being in good shape atm, and their thoughts - usually focused on it.
That said, I should correct my first post, of course Bisu doesn't have to be good, if he doesn't want to be, and he has full right to just milk out his past success. But if he wants to actually still be good - and I think he could - he just needs to concentrate on that.
uhhhh you pulled all the non-sc ones from bisu's and compared them to a single example.
1 - I want to go on vacation... 2 - Leta is a cutie 3 - Hiya keeps singing in the dormitories. It's stressful and it's noise pollution. 4 - Driving License 5 - My Investment Account 6 - Soccer 7 - Flash [T/N: The player drew in a bubble instead of the dot here] 8 - The Future 9 - Europe Backpacking Trip 10 - Table Tennis 11 - Let's exercise! Work Out! 12 - Army 13 - Marry for Love 14 - 15 - Friends 16 - I HATE LOSING
1 - Watch Celebrities 2 - Hairstyle 3 - Skin Care 4 - Go to the Beach 5 - Care for my looks 6 - Soccer 7 - Win the Proleague 8 - Get Buff 9 - Miss A 10 - I'm Sleepy.. Sleep. 11 - Dress Well 12 - Make Boy and Girl friends 13 - Worries about Military 14 - Contract Negotiations 15 - Exercise 16 - Win the Starleague
by that logic, jaedong spends all day thinking about the army and marrying and hiya singing and table tennis, and that bisu focuses on winning the proleague and starleague, therefore jaedong clearly does not possess the killer mindset of a champion.
>_>
IMO, "I hate losing" > "Win the Starleague". It's much more primitive, but at its core, it says so much more about JD's personality; it shows determination to be the best, regardless of what you're doing. In addition, JD thinks about Flash, meaning he knows that he must not let his resolve falter if he wants to be #1. Bisu had a rival once (he declared it to be Stork), but that fire doesn't seem to be there. Hell, even Stork seems to have less fire these days.
It really is more than just that. Even reading his interviews and JD/Flash's, you can see differences in their mindsets. Flash/JD are ALWAYS things along the lines of "I will beat my opponent whoever it is" or "Once I got my head in the game, I had complete control," whereas Bisu is more along the lings of "I got lucky" or "I need to practice more" (almost every progamer says they need to practice more, but Bisu sounds more uncertain of himself)
I never thought of it, but maybe the fall of Stork also left Bisu with less to strive for. A rivalry does push a player to work harder, and it's not there for Bisu. He's had a resurgence before though, he can do it again. His skills haven't left him yet.
I actually agree here. He needs to stop looking for the rival in the mirror. Maybe Kal? Or maybe if Kal was less ugly?
Best, free, Pure, Kal. Those are all decent protoss that can play well when they need to. Not that you can simply make a rivalry, because they don't really pose any sort of threat to each other as Stork did to Bisu's dominance in 07 or Flash did to Jaedong's dominance post-Bisu slump. Basically, stork needs to start doing well too.
lol @ title, funny but misleading =D but yeah Protoss isn't doing so well, idk if it'[s the maps, the players, or the balancy (please don't flame me, it's a thought)
On August 19 2010 17:06 Yxes2211 wrote: I really feel bad for Tosses. A Toss hasnt won an SL since 2008 >.< God thats a horrible drought for fans so I really feel for them. They really need a player to rally behind and Bisu did it once, so they are clinging to that >.< That said, Bisu just isn't what he used to be D: and sad thing is I don't see anyone picking up where he left off D: Snow? nah I think he's excellent but not enough to become the future of Toss.
I really hope u truly resurge Bisu but from your interviews it feels like you're not particularly hungry for another title. Flash and Jaedong want to go down as the best rivalry so they have a deep seeded desire to succeed, I just don't see that with my man Bisu...
Hope u come back Bisu but I'm not holding my breath D:
DAMN why aren't protosses WINNING?!?! zerg and terran imba? seriously why are tosses not winning as much, historically they aren't as accomplished as terran and zerg. >
I can tell you the reason for this.
Losses to random hydra busts!!
Somewhere or another they lose to random hydras and end up losing a Bo3 or get behind/kicked from their group etc.
On August 20 2010 03:42 figq wrote: He doesn't seem primarily focused on his Starcraft carrier, I noticed that in the brain diagram with his main thoughts in one of the ceremonies. He really should get more serious and focused and not be distracted by useless stardom.
This, Bisu spends most of his days thinking about his hair, skin, clothes, sleeping, and the A-girls. Compare it to Jaedong's or Flash's top priorities (I HATE LOSING! was Jaedong's if I remember correctly), and it's clear why Bisu will not return to form with his current mindset.
Are you pulling these facts out of your ass my friend?
Or am i being trolled?
You are not being trolled, unfortunately. The man speaks the truth, or at least based on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=138028 (scroll down to the brains) Clear correlation between people being in good shape atm, and their thoughts - usually focused on it.
That said, I should correct my first post, of course Bisu doesn't have to be good, if he doesn't want to be, and he has full right to just milk out his past success. But if he wants to actually still be good - and I think he could - he just needs to concentrate on that.
uhhhh you pulled all the non-sc ones from bisu's and compared them to a single example.
1 - I want to go on vacation... 2 - Leta is a cutie 3 - Hiya keeps singing in the dormitories. It's stressful and it's noise pollution. 4 - Driving License 5 - My Investment Account 6 - Soccer 7 - Flash [T/N: The player drew in a bubble instead of the dot here] 8 - The Future 9 - Europe Backpacking Trip 10 - Table Tennis 11 - Let's exercise! Work Out! 12 - Army 13 - Marry for Love 14 - 15 - Friends 16 - I HATE LOSING
1 - Watch Celebrities 2 - Hairstyle 3 - Skin Care 4 - Go to the Beach 5 - Care for my looks 6 - Soccer 7 - Win the Proleague 8 - Get Buff 9 - Miss A 10 - I'm Sleepy.. Sleep. 11 - Dress Well 12 - Make Boy and Girl friends 13 - Worries about Military 14 - Contract Negotiations 15 - Exercise 16 - Win the Starleague
by that logic, jaedong spends all day thinking about the army and marrying and hiya singing and table tennis, and that bisu focuses on winning the proleague and starleague, therefore jaedong clearly does not possess the killer mindset of a champion.
>_>
My original claim was just that Bisu seems to spend too much focus on his supposed stardom status and not enough on actually working towards it, which is not a good recipe. But yes, it's cherry-picking.
On August 20 2010 23:01 Rainmaker5 wrote: Actually Bisu probably sleeps wakes up, eats, plays sc, eats, plays sc, eats, plays sc and then sleeps again. Like every other progamer
On August 20 2010 03:42 figq wrote: He doesn't seem primarily focused on his Starcraft carrier, I noticed that in the brain diagram with his main thoughts in one of the ceremonies. He really should get more serious and focused and not be distracted by useless stardom.
This, Bisu spends most of his days thinking about his hair, skin, clothes, sleeping, and the A-girls. Compare it to Jaedong's or Flash's top priorities (I HATE LOSING! was Jaedong's if I remember correctly), and it's clear why Bisu will not return to form with his current mindset.
Are you pulling these facts out of your ass my friend?
Or am i being trolled?
You are not being trolled, unfortunately. The man speaks the truth, or at least based on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=138028 (scroll down to the brains) Clear correlation between people being in good shape atm, and their thoughts - usually focused on it.
That said, I should correct my first post, of course Bisu doesn't have to be good, if he doesn't want to be, and he has full right to just milk out his past success. But if he wants to actually still be good - and I think he could - he just needs to concentrate on that.
uhhhh you pulled all the non-sc ones from bisu's and compared them to a single example.
1 - I want to go on vacation... 2 - Leta is a cutie 3 - Hiya keeps singing in the dormitories. It's stressful and it's noise pollution. 4 - Driving License 5 - My Investment Account 6 - Soccer 7 - Flash [T/N: The player drew in a bubble instead of the dot here] 8 - The Future 9 - Europe Backpacking Trip 10 - Table Tennis 11 - Let's exercise! Work Out! 12 - Army 13 - Marry for Love 14 - 15 - Friends 16 - I HATE LOSING
1 - Watch Celebrities 2 - Hairstyle 3 - Skin Care 4 - Go to the Beach 5 - Care for my looks 6 - Soccer 7 - Win the Proleague 8 - Get Buff 9 - Miss A 10 - I'm Sleepy.. Sleep. 11 - Dress Well 12 - Make Boy and Girl friends 13 - Worries about Military 14 - Contract Negotiations 15 - Exercise 16 - Win the Starleague
by that logic, jaedong spends all day thinking about the army and marrying and hiya singing and table tennis, and that bisu focuses on winning the proleague and starleague, therefore jaedong clearly does not possess the killer mindset of a champion.
>_>
My original claim was just that Bisu seems to spend too much focus on his supposed stardom status and not enough on actually working towards it, which is not a good recipe. But yes, it's cherry-picking.
Actually Bisu probably sleeps wakes up, eats, plays sc, eats, plays sc, eats, plays sc and then sleeps again. Like every other progamer
I suppose sometimes he wins games for his team and looks adorable in interviews, but really that's allowed.
If you Merge Bisu and Stork into one, you get the best Protoss player ever to existed. If they could just emulate each others game style and game sense for their respective masteries (Bisus PvZ, Storks PvT). Stork is doing maybe better than Bisu lately, but he still hasn't got a grip on the PvZ, point that he often points out himself during interviews. And it's well known Bisus vsT is totally uninspired and makes you go "blergh" most of the time.
P.S. Please someone force-feed Bisu VODs from Storks PvT, and Stork with Bisus PvZ?
I think it's just that most of the toss suck. Even among the good ones, Best/free etc just aren't as good as Fantasy/Sea or Effort/Zero right now. Also, Flash and Jaedong are a lot better than Bisu and Stork, the S class of protoss when they were at their peak. When your race's stars suck, what motivation will the littluns have?
This is just ridiculous to say. What do you know? Can you show us in what way Best and Free is worse players than Fantasy and Sea? It's impossible, because they use different races. If you look at the start of the pro scene, there has always been a huge lack of big name Protosses. This changed during the era of the Dragons, but now they are starting to fail again. Protoss is the worst race in SC, and it's a fact.
i love how in the osl ro36 reviews, through the pokedex for progamers, they gave bisu a fucking legendary pokemon (deoxys) cuz he is "s-class" HAHAHAHAHA im so happy he is failing hard again, reminds me of savior (whenever he would win after his slump, he will destroy all in 2009? haha the overhype) anytime, stork and nal_ra are my true protoss heroes.
On August 19 2010 22:29 iNfeRnaL wrote: Tell me ANY player that does play better PvZ than Kim Taek Yong right now. Yes, Bisu is slumping and even most fanboys will admit that - his undefeatable PvP which was like 6 months ago is gone - and PvT never was his biggest strenght except winning Flash a few times due to being able to spot the holes in his play.
But your comparison doesn't make any sense at all since Bisu has the 3rd highest elo peak ever - guess what, he was even down to less than 2100 pts - means despite not being a Top10 player right now he's by no means a bad player. Also you call ForGG hotter since he is closer to his - way worse - ELO peak than Bisu, but Bisu having a higher current elo. Yes, ForGG >>>> Bisu. Less > more. Same with "soulkey" etc etc, yes they're up and comers but in YOUR book someone with 2050 elo high and 2050 elo current would be the "hottest player in the world right now" even if he only 3-0'ed Frozen to do so...
^ This
and, you're probly a savior fanboy who is just mad cuz bisu took him from his throne. sure, bisu is not where he was, but he's still throwing up consistent results. just because someone is on top for a while, you expect him to be there forever and anything less is unacceptable, so now he sucks? try again. so maybe he can't be ranked at S class in most of his games recently, but hes still a top level A class player
It's been historically bad to be a Protoss fan. The only times of true awesomeness were earlier in Bisu's career and the days of GARIMTO and Nal_rA. Everything else has been pretty gloomy.
On August 21 2010 03:51 Stratos_speAr wrote: It's been historically bad to be a Protoss fan. The only times of true awesomeness were earlier in Bisu's career and the days of GARIMTO and Nal_rA. Everything else has been pretty gloomy.
On August 21 2010 03:51 Stratos_speAr wrote: It's been historically bad to be a Protoss fan. The only times of true awesomeness were earlier in Bisu's career and the days of GARIMTO and Nal_rA. Everything else has been pretty gloomy.
Bisu's rampage before, during, and slightly after the so called Golden Age of Protoss was much more interesting and awesome to me than his initial rise after beating Savior.
Elo is a relative stat system - you can't even accurately use elo numbers from a month ago compared with current numbers. The only way to compare a "peak" is to compare EXACT elo values for the time that someone achieved said value. High elo values just mean a bigger pool of players, and a lot of games being played - it's not the actual number itself, it's the relative distance between that elo value, and the elo values of the other players at the time.
Guys, lets just watch Free royal road this OSL, we have another Protoss hero! But hopefully it would be Free vs Stork in the finals when Free defeat Flash in the semi and Stork beat Jaedong.
On note: I really miss Bisu.... he was THE best player like exactly a year ago.
hrmmm...I don't see the point of comparing distance from ELO peaks, because Bisu still has a higher ELO than 10 of the other players you listed. If you were saying that he "comparatively sucks" compared to his former self, then yes, that would be true. But to say Bisu sucks right now is to say that a lot of other decent players suck too.
Besides, raw statistics alone, doesn't do much to help your argument. There are still 2 other factors to look in to: 1. Players he's played to get that ELO 2. Quality of his games.
If Bisu played Flash in a bo5 and went 2-3, and you only see that his ELO dropped and that he went 2-3 and say something like "oh bisu went 2-3 in his last 5 PvTs, he sucks at PVT." That would be inaccurate, bcause he played Flash and took 2 games off of him in a bo5, which is a feat itself. Also, If you look at the losses of Bisu, and see that the game was still REALLY close, then that, by no means, gives any evidence that Bisu sucks at PVT.
I think it's just that most of the toss suck. Even among the good ones, Best/free etc just aren't as good as Fantasy/Sea or Effort/Zero right now. Also, Flash and Jaedong are a lot better than Bisu and Stork, the S class of protoss when they were at their peak. When your race's stars suck, what motivation will the littluns have?
This is just ridiculous to say. What do you know? Can you show us in what way Best and Free is worse players than Fantasy and Sea? It's impossible, because they use different races. If you look at the start of the pro scene, there has always been a huge lack of big name Protosses. This changed during the era of the Dragons, but now they are starting to fail again. Protoss is the worst race in SC, and it's a fact.
The race is probably a huge factor, don't get me wrong. But it also looks like a lot fo the players simply don't play as well. Maybe it's just that it's fucking hard, which could be true. But we've seen protoss do better, and this is not their time.
On August 21 2010 09:34 blahman3344 wrote: hrmmm...I don't see the point of comparing distance from ELO peaks, because Bisu still has a higher ELO than 10 of the other players you listed. If you were saying that he "comparatively sucks" compared to his former self, then yes, that would be true. But to say Bisu sucks right now is to say that a lot of other decent players suck too.
Besides, raw statistics alone, doesn't do much to help your argument. There are still 2 other factors to look in to: 1. Players he's played to get that ELO 2. Quality of his games.
If Bisu played Flash in a bo5 and went 2-3, and you only see that his ELO dropped and that he went 2-3 and say something like "oh bisu went 2-3 in his last 5 PvTs, he sucks at PVT." That would be inaccurate, bcause he played Flash and took 2 games off of him in a bo5, which is a feat itself. Also, If you look at the losses of Bisu, and see that the game was still REALLY close, then that, by no means, gives any evidence that Bisu sucks at PVT.
ELO automatically takes into account the players that someone plays against. The quality of games is a good point, though over the long run I doubt it would paint a picture contrary to the ELO.
I do think ELO is one "legitimate" way of comparing players at a given time, but to say Bisu is slumping... I don't know, he did have a pretty good run during the SPL playoffs.
On August 20 2010 03:56 ninini wrote: The last 2 months, Bisu have beaten Jaedong, Roro, "Clam" and Action (twice), and he have only lost to Effort. So he's 4(5)-1 against pretty much the top 5 Zergs right now. I don't think he have ever been better at PvZ than he is right now. He have a solid PvP on top of that, definately on par with Kal, Stats and the other top Protosses. The only thing you can really blame is his PvT, but you have to remember that Bisu is the revolutionist. When he was at his peak, noone had figured out his weaknesses yet, and now it seems his PvT had some major flaws. I think that if Bisu and Best put their minds together, and tried to learn from eachother, that we would have 2 solid Protosses in the future. But being a Protoss player myself, they have probably tried and failed. There's a reason why there are no Protoss who is Ace class at all matchups, because unlike for the other races, the Protoss matchups requires way different mentalities. PvZ is more about defense and picking your opponent apart little by little. PvT on the other hand is more about expanding really fast, and putting pressure on your opponent. In PvT you have a resource-advantage, but a weaker army-force. In PvZ, you have a resource disadvantage but a stronger army.
On August 22 2010 02:48 renzy wrote: To all the haters. Watch as Bisu takes another vacation at Thailand this off season and rapes the crap out of everybody! I BELIEVE YOU BISU!
Will he be going to Thailand this off season? If he went to my house, I would have made sure that he will win both StarLeagues next season, lol.
On August 21 2010 17:48 fearus wrote: A slumping Bisu is still bonjwa level and the #1 toss ever.
he was never a bonjwa level. he would never be able to take out jaedong during his prime. we saw that in their first match in msl ro32 on blue storm
I suggest you watch the 2009 Averatec-Intel Classic Special Match between Jaedong and Bisu. It was one of the msot itnense series with high level play from both sides. Given that JD won the showmatch because of a little mishap by Bisu in game 5, but it certainly showed that Bisu can take on Jaedong.
Also watch the Oz vs SKT ace match from june 2009. Another high-level game between the 2 (and bisu wins in a convincing fashion).
besides man Bisu cud b bonjwa level if he wanted hes racked up several wins in his past b4 and he still kicks ass idc wut ya'll say Bisu is a badass Protoss Player
On August 20 2010 03:56 ninini wrote: The last 2 months, Bisu have beaten Jaedong, Roro, "Clam" and Action (twice), and he have only lost to Effort. So he's 4(5)-1 against pretty much the top 5 Zergs right now. I don't think he have ever been better at PvZ than he is right now. He have a solid PvP on top of that, definately on par with Kal, Stats and the other top Protosses. The only thing you can really blame is his PvT, but you have to remember that Bisu is the revolutionist. When he was at his peak, noone had figured out his weaknesses yet, and now it seems his PvT had some major flaws. I think that if Bisu and Best put their minds together, and tried to learn from eachother, that we would have 2 solid Protosses in the future. But being a Protoss player myself, they have probably tried and failed. There's a reason why there are no Protoss who is Ace class at all matchups, because unlike for the other races, the Protoss matchups requires way different mentalities. PvZ is more about defense and picking your opponent apart little by little. PvT on the other hand is more about expanding really fast, and putting pressure on your opponent. In PvT you have a resource-advantage, but a weaker army-force. In PvZ, you have a resource disadvantage but a stronger army.
ok so Roro is top 5 zerg and zero is not???
Zero is definitely above Roro, but people seem to underestimate Roro a lot, he's at least in the top 10 Zergs.
For those who think bisu is hot, all i can say is... he has 2 pimples on his chin, im sorry but its true. The OP is right about bisu for the wrong reasons.
On January 16 2011 22:12 writer22816 wrote: haha nice bump. But until he starts getting deep into individual leagues again...
well, losing to a stork in the form of his life is no shame. it was just unlucky of bisu to face stork in the ro16. ok, his epic fail against shine on the other hand....
On January 16 2011 22:12 writer22816 wrote: haha nice bump. But until he starts getting deep into individual leagues again...
well, losing to a stork in the form of his life is no shame. it was just unlucky of bisu to face stork in the ro16. ok, his epic fail against shine on the other hand....
Shine is his nemesis. When he'll be able to deal with him, he'll start taking those gold medals again.
On January 16 2011 22:38 legaton wrote: Bisu's so hot he's gonna win OSL/MSL ....oh wait, my bad, he's out of both.
But at least gonna be making it to both finals next season against God. Hopefully, because that would be the most epic season ever witnessed by mankind.
On January 16 2011 22:38 legaton wrote: Bisu's so hot he's gonna win OSL/MSL ....oh wait, my bad, he's out of both.
at least he is performing better than Flash, and constantly raped Jaedong.
That's why he lost to Flash a few days ago? And maybe you like missed the last 4 OSL and MSL finals where Flash won vs Jaedong? I'm all for fanboying your favorite player but this is just sad.
On January 16 2011 22:38 legaton wrote: Bisu's so hot he's gonna win OSL/MSL ....oh wait, my bad, he's out of both.
at least he is performing better than Flash, and constantly raped Jaedong.
Wat? Since when does Bisu constantly rape Jaedong? He's like .500 vs JD, and so is Flash. And both players are playing ridiculously in PL as of late, so I don't see how you can say that Bisu is performing better than Flash with a straight face.
On January 16 2011 22:38 legaton wrote: Bisu's so hot he's gonna win OSL/MSL ....oh wait, my bad, he's out of both.
at least he is performing better than Flash, and constantly raped Jaedong.
Wat? Since when does Bisu constantly rape Jaedong? He's like .500 vs JD, and so is Flash. And both players are playing ridiculously in PL as of late, so I don't see how you can say that Bisu is performing better than Flash with a straight face.
Better SL results? Remember Flash's MLS and OSL THIS season? Yes, i'm talking about THIS season. And Bisu has 1 more kill than Flash in PL. And the last 2 times Bisu faced Jaedong in official match, he raped, didn't he?
wow haha nice bump... but i think it'll be pointless to get this thread into a who's better than who... we have plenty of threads for that... what i want to know is what the creator of this thread has to say for himself right now..
On August 19 2010 16:02 G5 wrote: Such little faith. Please re-visit this thread in 3-4 months and take a pic of your face plz. I wanna see your expression when you realize how wrong you were and who exactly you questioned. Bisu is solid, strong, reliable and the highest paid progamer (afaik) today (talk about motivation). This man might loose games every once in a while, no one can win every time. He will revolutionize himself as he has done countless times. Every time I hear about a slump I think, wait 3-4 months. Why? Because not only does the test of time prove someone right or wrong but also the fact that some players styles just don't work well with certain maps and a new map pool could change everything around. And Bisu sure the fuck has style. I am not going fan boy here, I actually never liked Bisu's style to much but he is way too talented and skilled to just drop off the face of the map. Give it time. Bisu will succeed.
On January 16 2011 22:38 legaton wrote: Bisu's so hot he's gonna win OSL/MSL ....oh wait, my bad, he's out of both.
at least he is performing better than Flash, and constantly raped Jaedong.
Wat? Since when does Bisu constantly rape Jaedong? He's like .500 vs JD, and so is Flash. And both players are playing ridiculously in PL as of late, so I don't see how you can say that Bisu is performing better than Flash with a straight face.
Better SL results? Remember Flash's MLS and OSL THIS season? Yes, i'm talking about THIS season. And Bisu has 1 more kill than Flash in PL. And the last 2 times Bisu faced Jaedong in official match, he raped, didn't he?
What about Bisu's results THIS season? He didn't do any better than Flash... Rofl. Also don't know about you, but Flash has a better win % in PL albeit ONE LESS WIN (OMFG ONE LESS WIN!), crushed Bisu last time they met in PL, and also has raped JD the last 2 times he's faced him.
You're gonna have to try harder.
But if you insist, here are some facts.
Bisu last 10 games: 8-2 Flash last 10 games: 9-1
Bisu got knocked out in OSL Ro36, Flash got knocked out in OSL Ro16. Bisu got knocked out in MSL Ro16, Flash got knocked out in MSL Ro32.
Flash owned Bisu last time they played. While Bisu has 2 All Kills in WL, Flash also hasn't lost a game in WL. Stats just seems to snipe a kill before Flash can clean up.
Bisu is 8-7 vs JD lifetime. Flash is 20-19 vs JD lifetime. Bisu is 25-3 in PL. Flash is 24-2 in PL.
I don't see how you can even begin to make an argument that Bisu is performing better than Flash is. Oh yeah, since you feel like pointing out that winning the last two matches against JD constitutes as "Bisu raping JD", then I'll just point out that Flash has also won his last two matches against JD. Now think to yourself. Does winning 2 games really mean someone is good? Hell, Rock is like 3-1 vs JD lifetime or something dumb like that. Does that mean Rock is good?
The difference between Flash and Bisu's performance is negligible, it's not even worth talking about. If you call their meeting in the Winner's league a crushing, you didn't watch most of it. They're both playing out of their minds in the Proleague. It's something to just watch and enjoy, not make biased shouting matches out of. :|
Hahaha, Roffles is right--Bisu is still Flash's bitch. Heads up, Flash is still the heavy favorite and Flash is doing just as well in PL and exactly as well in individual leagues.
Bisu got crushed, because he plays PvT like ass. Any fanboys out there care to dispute this fact? Watching him play PvT is like watching a guy ram his head against a brick wall over and over. He makes the same mistakes, and it always costs him against people who aren't retarded at TvP.
Look, I hate Flash more than just about anyone on the forums. And I cheer for just about any Protoss player out there. But there's a time when blatant fanboyism goes way too far and ludicrous comments are being thrown around that are blatantly false, and that's been happening a lot due to Bisu's recent resurgence.
Btw, Bisu is still Flash's bitch. And he'll always be until he fixes up his PvT, cause it's painfully awful. Some of the worst decision making and worst attacks you'll ever see. He only gets away with it because the people he outmacros the lesser Terrans he plays against.
But his PvZ is pretty much untouchable right now, and during a time when zergs are performing well, having good vs Z is a good skill to have.
Bisu got knocked out in OSL Ro36 after he had passed many formidable opponents, while Flash lost both league ASAP when he had a chance to play. He lost to Classic, Ssak, Hyuk and Kal. Only Kal is decent but Bisu won him 2 latest times they met. And Bisu advanced further than Flash in MSL, beating many many good opponents including Kal himself and Shine who was on a very hot streak (sad to admit so, though). And he only lost to Stork, who is, well, pretty much destroying everyone. I will ignore all the whole career's stat because they're irrelevant. And in PL, i'm talking about RESULTS, strictly stat, no more elaboration and Bisu still got 1 more kill than Flash, it's a fact. If you want to specifically analyze the opponents Bisu or Flash defeated then you have to look at 25 games of Bisu and 24 games of Flash, not just the direct confrontation. And jaedong is a different case, nothing involves Flash-Bisu's argument.
On January 16 2011 20:57 kamikami wrote: Bisu is now > 2300 lol, so the op become obsolete.
Bisu is TOO HOT.
Bisu is SO hot right now. Both his play and his gorgeous, gorgeous self!
Really, the OP should be eating his words now. He posted this when Bisu was at 2200 ELO, which is still higher than the people he was comparing him to who were at their peak - even as Bisu was 192 below.
And I don't really think that Bisu is better than Flash, just want to make a argument to someone above who said that we have to wait until Bisu shows results in SLs. Well, by RESULTS only, Bisu is better than Flash, a fact. So that man's statement is as ridiculous as that by looking at results, we can say Bisu is better than Flash overall. And yes, Bisu raped Jaedong recently.
On January 17 2011 00:28 Roffles wrote: Bisu got crushed, because he plays PvT like ass. Any fanboys out there care to dispute this fact? Watching him play PvT is like watching a guy ram his head against a brick wall over and over. He makes the same mistakes, and it always costs him against people who aren't retarded at TvP.
This is definitely true. People keep making excuses for his PvT and saying its fine because he beats lesser opponents, but his problem is hyper aggression just doesn't work against good Terrans in most situations. There are times when you just have to crack the Terran or you lose, but it seems like constantly throws away advantages. It's like he doesn't understand that sometimes you just have to wait and build up your advantage so that you can wreck the Terran at precisely the right moment, and that pure zealot/dragoon/arbiter is going to lose if you stick with it the entire game.
I suppose in some respect his current weaknesses are much better than the period of time where he played overly passive against Terrans. If he fixes the lack of high templar and starts picking his battles instead of running into a tank line like a berserker, he'll probably start waltzing over everyone except Flash, and he'll probably give Flash a run for his money. But it seems every game I expect him to stop making the same stupid mistakes, he goes and does it again. -_-
"Oh wait... 10-0 first round of proleague is obviously just a fluke... oh wait... 7-2 LOOK! HE LOST TWO GAMES ZOMG SLUMP IS BACK... HE LOST TO FLASH LAWLAWLAWLLAW.... oh wait... all kills..."
Not a fanboy of Bisu by any means (Huh Young Moo<3) but this was just a waste of effort from the OP.
Roffles Tuvalu. August 19 2010 15:53. Posts 11054 PM Profile Blog Quote # Yet another reason why Bisu has fallen from his mantle as the King Acorn.
I pointed this out months ago, but no one would believe me. The truth does hurt, doesn't it?
Long gone. Cya Kim Taek Yong.
Roffles is now reflecting on his farwell to Bisu as Bisu attempts his 3rd AK in a row next proleague MU.
lilchoiboy18 United States. January 17 2011 01:41. Posts 2 PM Profile Report Quote # I'd like a response from the OP... lawlwalawl.
"Oh wait... 10-0 first round of proleague is obviously just a fluke... oh wait... 7-2 LOOK! HE LOST TWO GAMES ZOMG SLUMP IS BACK... HE LOST TO FLASH LAWLAWLAWLLAW.... oh wait... all kills..."
Not a fanboy of Bisu by any means (Huh Young Moo<3) but this was just a waste of effort from the OP
^ This thread was made before the new season when bisu was still in his slump stages. I agree even back in august that this OP was useless, but at least it had han bak timing.
On January 17 2011 01:55 Nick_54 wrote: His pvt is 9-1 in his last 10 games with his only loss coming to Flash, pretty bad like you guys say.
This bump is hilarious and sometimes shit happens in the individual leagues just look what happened to Flash against Classic Ssak and Hyuk.
Yes Bisu is doing fine in the last 2 months or so in pvt but if you seen his pvt games in 2010 ... it was really bad not just statswise but he even won games where he played like an ass but the oponents were just even worse.
On January 17 2011 01:55 Nick_54 wrote: This bump is hilarious and sometimes shit happens in the individual leagues just look what happened to Flash against Classic Ssak and Hyuk.
Problem is, shit has been happening every season for Bisu for a couple of years now whereas for Flash it was just a bumb on the long, golden road he's been walking on for the last year.
On January 17 2011 01:55 Nick_54 wrote: This bump is hilarious and sometimes shit happens in the individual leagues just look what happened to Flash against Classic Ssak and Hyuk.
Problem is, shit has been happening every season for Bisu for a couple of years now whereas for Flash it was just a bumb on the long, golden road he's been walking on for the last year.
Bisu and Flash slips are incomparable... Bisu's were straight up slumps. I'm calling Flash's more of a fluke. Cuz he's still tearing it up and beating strong opponents. He's got 2 3-kills with a bad wrist and he's gotten to the point where he adds nukes in TvT for funnsies.
I also think Bisu's PvT is still horrible. His PvP is very shaky too. I think his good results are kinda fluky for a player who is considered "S-Class". He's not. He's A-Class with an ubergodly PvZ.
On January 17 2011 01:55 Nick_54 wrote: This bump is hilarious and sometimes shit happens in the individual leagues just look what happened to Flash against Classic Ssak and Hyuk.
Problem is, shit has been happening every season for Bisu for a couple of years now whereas for Flash it was just a bumb on the long, golden road he's been walking on for the last year.
Bisu and Flash slips are incomparable... Bisu's were straight up slumps. I'm calling Flash's more of a fluke. Cuz he's still tearing it up and beating strong opponents. He's got 2 3-kills with a bad wrist and he's gotten to the point where he adds nukes in TvT for funnsies.
Flash adds nukes in TvT against the only person in the world ANYONE would consider a favorite over Flash.
Anyhow, Flash is doing better than Bisu because he's got 2 more titles under his belt that he won last season. Bisu's performance will be worth recognizing when he can win 2 more titles. Preferably in the same season. It's a mockery that anyone thinks Bisu is better than Flash and this thread seems to be implying it like crazy.
...Why does anyone still say Bisu isn't S-class? 1 more AK and he passes Jaedong in ELO, and he still isn't S-class? His performance is certainly comparable to Flash's right now, but as of right now I'd say Flash is a bit stronger. But by no means is writing off Bisu justifiable. He just passed 2300 with Stork once again.
I think the reason is because all are just looking at his BvZ, and messure him up to that. They expect his PvP and PvT to be on pair with his godly unmatched BvZ, and if he can't meet the expectations, he's inconstistant and not S-Class.
On January 17 2011 04:35 Lightwip wrote: ...Why does anyone still say Bisu isn't S-class? 1 more AK and he passes Jaedong in ELO, and he still isn't S-class? His performance is certainly comparable to Flash's right now, but as of right now I'd say Flash is a bit stronger. But by no means is writing off Bisu justifiable. He just passed 2300 with Stork once again.
Flash > Bisu any day. Don't ask. Bisu is definitely S-Class. I'm not sure what the OP is trying to say. Not being at peak is bad? If Flash were to lose 10 games in a row to stork and drop like 200 elo, he would still be 2nd best in the world.
On January 17 2011 01:55 Nick_54 wrote: This bump is hilarious and sometimes shit happens in the individual leagues just look what happened to Flash against Classic Ssak and Hyuk.
Problem is, shit has been happening every season for Bisu for a couple of years now whereas for Flash it was just a bumb on the long, golden road he's been walking on for the last year.
Bisu and Flash slips are incomparable... Bisu's were straight up slumps. I'm calling Flash's more of a fluke. Cuz he's still tearing it up and beating strong opponents. He's got 2 3-kills with a bad wrist and he's gotten to the point where he adds nukes in TvT for funnsies.
Flash adds nukes in TvT against the only person in the world ANYONE would consider a favorite over Flash.
Anyhow, Flash is doing better than Bisu because he's got 2 more titles under his belt that he won last season. Bisu's performance will be worth recognizing when he can win 2 more titles. Preferably in the same season. It's a mockery that anyone thinks Bisu is better than Flash and this thread seems to be implying it like crazy.
Arcording to your logic what is the place for Stork now? I mean, he just got 1 SL title, right?
On January 17 2011 01:55 Nick_54 wrote: This bump is hilarious and sometimes shit happens in the individual leagues just look what happened to Flash against Classic Ssak and Hyuk.
Problem is, shit has been happening every season for Bisu for a couple of years now whereas for Flash it was just a bumb on the long, golden road he's been walking on for the last year.
Bisu and Flash slips are incomparable... Bisu's were straight up slumps. I'm calling Flash's more of a fluke. Cuz he's still tearing it up and beating strong opponents. He's got 2 3-kills with a bad wrist and he's gotten to the point where he adds nukes in TvT for funnsies.
Flash adds nukes in TvT against the only person in the world ANYONE would consider a favorite over Flash.
Anyhow, Flash is doing better than Bisu because he's got 2 more titles under his belt that he won last season. Bisu's performance will be worth recognizing when he can win 2 more titles. Preferably in the same season. It's a mockery that anyone thinks Bisu is better than Flash and this thread seems to be implying it like crazy.
...Right now, I'd take Bisu over Flash in anything but a head to head matchup. The only difference between their performances right now is that Bisu got knock out of the SLs by actual players, while Flash lost to scrubs. Other than that, they both look unstoppable in PL - and Flash vs Bisu is in a matchup Flash is historically good at and Bisu is historically not. Right now, whether Flash or Bisu is better is really an open question.
(Career-wise, it's no argument: Flash is way ahead. Just clarifying that. But I'm talking about at-this-moment.)
But what really got me was the "...against the only person in the world ANYONE would consider a favorite over Flash." Anyone who thinks sKyHigh's a favorite over Flash right now is delusional. sKyHigh's always been bad except for his TvT, and lately his TvT's been pretty shabby too. I can name two people I'd probably take over Flash right now: Stork and fantasy (despite fantasy's recent epic collapse game), and I don't think Flash would nuke either.
On January 17 2011 00:28 Roffles wrote: Bisu got crushed, because he plays PvT like ass. Any fanboys out there care to dispute this fact?
Are you sure you watched that game or SC at all? He played toe to toe (arguably better) than Flash until late game. His late game wasn't terrible in itself but attempting to expand that fast vs the best TvPer ever isn't the brightest thing to even consider.
On January 17 2011 01:55 Nick_54 wrote: This bump is hilarious and sometimes shit happens in the individual leagues just look what happened to Flash against Classic Ssak and Hyuk.
Problem is, shit has been happening every season for Bisu for a couple of years now whereas for Flash it was just a bumb on the long, golden road he's been walking on for the last year.
Bisu and Flash slips are incomparable... Bisu's were straight up slumps. I'm calling Flash's more of a fluke. Cuz he's still tearing it up and beating strong opponents. He's got 2 3-kills with a bad wrist and he's gotten to the point where he adds nukes in TvT for funnsies.
Flash adds nukes in TvT against the only person in the world ANYONE would consider a favorite over Flash.
Anyhow, Flash is doing better than Bisu because he's got 2 more titles under his belt that he won last season. Bisu's performance will be worth recognizing when he can win 2 more titles. Preferably in the same season. It's a mockery that anyone thinks Bisu is better than Flash and this thread seems to be implying it like crazy.
...Right now, I'd take Bisu over Flash in anything but a head to head matchup. The only difference between their performances right now is that Bisu got knock out of the SLs by actual players, while Flash lost to scrubs. Other than that, they both look unstoppable in PL - and Flash vs Bisu is in a matchup Flash is historically good at and Bisu is historically not. Right now, whether Flash or Bisu is better is really an open question.
(Career-wise, it's no argument: Flash is way ahead. Just clarifying that. But I'm talking about at-this-moment.)
But what really got me was the "...against the only person in the world ANYONE would consider a favorite over Flash." Anyone who thinks sKyHigh's a favorite over Flash right now is delusional. sKyHigh's always been bad except for his TvT, and lately his TvT's been pretty shabby too. I can name two people I'd probably take over Flash right now: Stork and fantasy (despite fantasy's recent epic collapse game), and I don't think Flash would nuke either.
Right now, no one is better than Flash. I can't believe people even want to argue this. Better results is not a better player. As has been said, comparing Bisu to Flash? Lol.
That you would take Stork and Fantasy over Flash is dumb as well. Flash is seriously the best player in the world and yes, even one "bad" season by his standards doesn't change that.
regardless of individual leagues, bisu is a PL monster. He is doing infinitely better than last season, and I don't see him slowing down. Cheers!
EDIT: To those comparing Bisu to the likes of Jaedong and Flash - I thought it was common knowledge that they are in a class of their own. I don't see Bisu struggling against any other players (Stork maybe). Since his loss to Shine, has he not beaten him a couple times? I see nothing but improvement from Kim Tae Young
On January 17 2011 00:28 Roffles wrote: Bisu got crushed, because he plays PvT like ass. Any fanboys out there care to dispute this fact?
Are you sure you watched that game or SC at all? He played toe to toe (arguably better) than Flash until late game. His late game wasn't terrible in itself but attempting to expand that fast vs the best TvPer ever isn't the brightest thing to even consider.
TL;DR
Early game and Mid game
Bisu > Flash (arguably)
Late game
Bisu < Flash
= crushed? lol?
^I lol'd. Flash will walk over bisu everyday, any day. I don't care if bisu played a more solid early game or has a better worker split, he will lose to flash.
Personally, Bisu's only method of redeeming his S-Class stature would be if he started to consistently beat top TvP players alongside FlaSh. He's always been inconsistent with his TvP and although he is scoring all-kills, he's barely had to run into any Terran players (which is especially surprising when one considers that he just AK-ed WeMade FOX, a team that's basically built around its Terran line-up).
I kind of want to see FanTaSy and Bisu play a BoX series just to determine Bisu's present TvP prowress[sic]; other than FlaSh, FanTaSy is the only other viable measuring stick when it comes to seeing Bisu's true skills in the PvT match-up.
On January 17 2011 06:37 HitoriTomoyo wrote: Personally, Bisu's only method of redeeming his S-Class stature would be if he started to consistently beat top TvP players alongside FlaSh. He's always been inconsistent with his TvP and although he is scoring all-kills, he's barely had to run into any Terran players (which is especially surprising when one considers that he just AK-ed WeMade FOX, a team that's basically built around its Terran line-up).
I kind of want to see FanTaSy and Bisu play a BoX series just to determine Bisu's present TvP prowress[sic]; other than FlaSh, FanTaSy is the only other viable measuring stick when it comes to seeing Bisu's true skills in the PvT match-up.
Even vs. fantasy it wouldn't be accurate, team-kills are volatile.
Also, fox is a well rounded team, Roro, shine, midas, baby, mind, and pure. I wouldn't say they are terran centered.
On January 17 2011 01:55 Nick_54 wrote: This bump is hilarious and sometimes shit happens in the individual leagues just look what happened to Flash against Classic Ssak and Hyuk.
Problem is, shit has been happening every season for Bisu for a couple of years now whereas for Flash it was just a bumb on the long, golden road he's been walking on for the last year.
Bisu and Flash slips are incomparable... Bisu's were straight up slumps. I'm calling Flash's more of a fluke. Cuz he's still tearing it up and beating strong opponents. He's got 2 3-kills with a bad wrist and he's gotten to the point where he adds nukes in TvT for funnsies.
Flash adds nukes in TvT against the only person in the world ANYONE would consider a favorite over Flash.
Anyhow, Flash is doing better than Bisu because he's got 2 more titles under his belt that he won last season. Bisu's performance will be worth recognizing when he can win 2 more titles. Preferably in the same season. It's a mockery that anyone thinks Bisu is better than Flash and this thread seems to be implying it like crazy.
On January 17 2011 06:37 HitoriTomoyo wrote: Personally, Bisu's only method of redeeming his S-Class stature would be if he started to consistently beat top TvP players alongside FlaSh. He's always been inconsistent with his TvP and although he is scoring all-kills, he's barely had to run into any Terran players (which is especially surprising when one considers that he just AK-ed WeMade FOX, a team that's basically built around its Terran line-up).
I kind of want to see FanTaSy and Bisu play a BoX series just to determine Bisu's present TvP prowress[sic]; other than FlaSh, FanTaSy is the only other viable measuring stick when it comes to seeing Bisu's true skills in the PvT match-up.
... He wins all his games against terran this season including some against some pretty good opponents(Really, Baby, Sea) and he loses one game to the best TvP player on the proscene and suddenly he's inconsistent? Really? Are you sure you're not just blinded by bias?
On January 17 2011 01:55 Nick_54 wrote: This bump is hilarious and sometimes shit happens in the individual leagues just look what happened to Flash against Classic Ssak and Hyuk.
Problem is, shit has been happening every season for Bisu for a couple of years now whereas for Flash it was just a bumb on the long, golden road he's been walking on for the last year.
Bisu and Flash slips are incomparable... Bisu's were straight up slumps. I'm calling Flash's more of a fluke. Cuz he's still tearing it up and beating strong opponents. He's got 2 3-kills with a bad wrist and he's gotten to the point where he adds nukes in TvT for funnsies.
Flash adds nukes in TvT against the only person in the world ANYONE would consider a favorite over Flash.
Anyhow, Flash is doing better than Bisu because he's got 2 more titles under his belt that he won last season. Bisu's performance will be worth recognizing when he can win 2 more titles. Preferably in the same season. It's a mockery that anyone thinks Bisu is better than Flash and this thread seems to be implying it like crazy.
...Right now, I'd take Bisu over Flash in anything but a head to head matchup. The only difference between their performances right now is that Bisu got knock out of the SLs by actual players, while Flash lost to scrubs. Other than that, they both look unstoppable in PL - and Flash vs Bisu is in a matchup Flash is historically good at and Bisu is historically not. Right now, whether Flash or Bisu is better is really an open question.
(Career-wise, it's no argument: Flash is way ahead. Just clarifying that. But I'm talking about at-this-moment.)
But what really got me was the "...against the only person in the world ANYONE would consider a favorite over Flash." Anyone who thinks sKyHigh's a favorite over Flash right now is delusional. sKyHigh's always been bad except for his TvT, and lately his TvT's been pretty shabby too. I can name two people I'd probably take over Flash right now: Stork and fantasy (despite fantasy's recent epic collapse game), and I don't think Flash would nuke either.
Right now, no one is better than Flash. I can't believe people even want to argue this. Better results is not a better player. As has been said, comparing Bisu to Flash? Lol.
That you would take Stork and Fantasy over Flash is dumb as well. Flash is seriously the best player in the world and yes, even one "bad" season by his standards doesn't change that.
But that's the problem: at some point better results are what makes someone a better player. And if we talk about best player right now, which I am doing, Bisu's results are just as good or better than Flash's, and Storks are even better. Yes, Flash gets more benefit of the doubt. Yes, Flash is likely to do as well or better as those two when the next season of SLs rolls around, or even as PL continues. But there's definite doubt right now who the best player is - Flash and Jaedong have momentum from older results, but Bisu and Stork have recently looked just as good, and fantasy is right behind those four with Hydra right behind him.
You're trying to define "best player" as... I don't even know how you're trying to define it, exactly. Is Flash the best player ever? Of course. But that's something determined by SL titles, finals, solid PL performance over the long haul, and when most of us talk about "Who's the best player?" we mean, "Who's playing best right now?", where "right now" is a matter of a couple months if not a few weeks. By that standard - the common one - is Flash's performance at this time the best there is around? I think Stork looks better: I think Bisu looks more unstoppable (except his PvT, asdfweafavea). All I'm saying is it's debatable: right now, Flash has challengers, even if it's mostly his own fault for epic failing out of the starleagues
(And then of course there's Jaedong, who's probably the favorite to win the MSL because I don't trust Stork's PvZ in a finals and if Stork manages to lose before that JD should roflstomp anybody else. But Bisu and Flash are probably both favored against Jaedong right now, though I personally think we're back to the Bisu wins the single PL game, JD wins the BoX standard we used to have.)
On January 17 2011 01:55 Nick_54 wrote: This bump is hilarious and sometimes shit happens in the individual leagues just look what happened to Flash against Classic Ssak and Hyuk.
Problem is, shit has been happening every season for Bisu for a couple of years now whereas for Flash it was just a bumb on the long, golden road he's been walking on for the last year.
Bisu and Flash slips are incomparable... Bisu's were straight up slumps. I'm calling Flash's more of a fluke. Cuz he's still tearing it up and beating strong opponents. He's got 2 3-kills with a bad wrist and he's gotten to the point where he adds nukes in TvT for funnsies.
Flash adds nukes in TvT against the only person in the world ANYONE would consider a favorite over Flash.
Anyhow, Flash is doing better than Bisu because he's got 2 more titles under his belt that he won last season. Bisu's performance will be worth recognizing when he can win 2 more titles. Preferably in the same season. It's a mockery that anyone thinks Bisu is better than Flash and this thread seems to be implying it like crazy.
Flash used a nuke?
Which game Please?
In his game vs Skyhigh
If you just want to watch the nuke, its in part 2, 13:34.
On January 17 2011 01:55 Nick_54 wrote: This bump is hilarious and sometimes shit happens in the individual leagues just look what happened to Flash against Classic Ssak and Hyuk.
Problem is, shit has been happening every season for Bisu for a couple of years now whereas for Flash it was just a bumb on the long, golden road he's been walking on for the last year.
Bisu and Flash slips are incomparable... Bisu's were straight up slumps. I'm calling Flash's more of a fluke. Cuz he's still tearing it up and beating strong opponents. He's got 2 3-kills with a bad wrist and he's gotten to the point where he adds nukes in TvT for funnsies.
Flash adds nukes in TvT against the only person in the world ANYONE would consider a favorite over Flash.
Anyhow, Flash is doing better than Bisu because he's got 2 more titles under his belt that he won last season. Bisu's performance will be worth recognizing when he can win 2 more titles. Preferably in the same season. It's a mockery that anyone thinks Bisu is better than Flash and this thread seems to be implying it like crazy.
Flash used a nuke?
Which game Please?
In his game vs Skyhigh
If you just want to watch the nuke, its in part 2, 13:34.
Thank You On Topic: Just saw some o Bisu's games against MBC His PvZ is looking great. His TvP... i still can;t tell it seems as if its god, but Baby imo played badly.
On January 17 2011 01:55 Nick_54 wrote: This bump is hilarious and sometimes shit happens in the individual leagues just look what happened to Flash against Classic Ssak and Hyuk.
Problem is, shit has been happening every season for Bisu for a couple of years now whereas for Flash it was just a bumb on the long, golden road he's been walking on for the last year.
Bisu and Flash slips are incomparable... Bisu's were straight up slumps. I'm calling Flash's more of a fluke. Cuz he's still tearing it up and beating strong opponents. He's got 2 3-kills with a bad wrist and he's gotten to the point where he adds nukes in TvT for funnsies.
Flash adds nukes in TvT against the only person in the world ANYONE would consider a favorite over Flash.
Anyhow, Flash is doing better than Bisu because he's got 2 more titles under his belt that he won last season. Bisu's performance will be worth recognizing when he can win 2 more titles. Preferably in the same season. It's a mockery that anyone thinks Bisu is better than Flash and this thread seems to be implying it like crazy.
Flash used a nuke?
Which game Please?
In his game vs Skyhigh
If you just want to watch the nuke, its in part 2, 13:34.
Thank You On Topic: Just saw some o Bisu's games against MBC His PvZ is looking great. His TvP... i still can;t tell it seems as if its god, but Baby imo played badly.
His only vT flaw was really that failed recall against Flash, and he said he was just having a pretty bad moment when he messed up. His PvT is definitely solid albeit very very standard.
Just because Flash and Stork beat Bisu, and I would still favor Flash over Stork. Can anyone blame me? It's not that I don't think Stork could win, I just think the odds are in Flash's favor no matter how minor. Secondly, Stork smashed Bisu in a Bo3 so he should undoubtedly be above him, and both Stork and Bisu roflstomped my boy Jaedong.
Comparisons can be made about win records, but when you look at head to head records, I still say Flash deserves numero uno. And there is very little argument to put JD above the other three (and as a fanboy I've tried to find something).
Simply put Flash is still playing well despite poor results from Terrans recently, he's still the scariest player, he can't help it if he gets sent out last and gets less wins. Individual leagues being the exception, but come on guys, the guy was in dual finals for a year, cut him some slack for a small bump.
Where "good" is defined by my special metric of all players ELO-ranked above the the highest-ranked player with a losing record in non-special leagues.
On January 17 2011 00:28 Roffles wrote: Bisu got crushed, because he plays PvT like ass. Any fanboys out there care to dispute this fact?
Are you sure you watched that game or SC at all? He played toe to toe (arguably better) than Flash until late game. His late game wasn't terrible in itself but attempting to expand that fast vs the best TvPer ever isn't the brightest thing to even consider.
TL;DR
Early game and Mid game
Bisu > Flash (arguably)
Late game
Bisu < Flash
= crushed? lol?
^I lol'd. Flash will walk over bisu everyday, any day. I don't care if bisu played a more solid early game or has a better worker split, he will lose to flash.
You're not understanding my point. im not arguing that Bisu is close to beating Flash atm, but he's not a punching bag (or as big as a punching bag) as before. It looks like he's making noticeable albeit minor improvements to his PvT (and he has his confidence back). Considering his PvT has been his weakest MU, if he keeps improving he can have a pretty nasty PvT, although more because of his mechanics, nothing like Stork who knows it inside and out.
On January 17 2011 06:42 ibreakurface wrote: Even vs. fantasy it wouldn't be accurate, team-kills are volatile.
Also, fox is a well rounded team, Roro, shine, midas, baby, mind, and pure. I wouldn't say they are terran centered.
Then who would be a good measuring stick? I understand that team-kills are unpredictable but I can't really think of any other Terran besides FlaSh and FanTaSy that would solidly reveal Bisu's present PvT capabilities.
I know FOX is a deep team, I guess I worded that wrong. What I meant to get across was my personal surprise at Bisu facing a single Terran (BaBy) when FOX could have practically thrown at least one other Terran against Bisu instead of throwing Pure at him (Shine was somewhat understandable).
Not that I'm trying to claim that Mind or Midas would have fared off any better than Pure against Bisu, I'm just a bit surprised that they didn't try to knock out Bisu by playing towards his weakness.
On January 17 2011 06:47 Lightwip wrote: ... He wins all his games against terran this season including some against some pretty good opponents(Really, Baby, Sea) and he loses one game to the best TvP player on the proscene and suddenly he's inconsistent? Really? Are you sure you're not just blinded by bias?
I'm not trying to be blinded by bias, but it's somewhat hard to use Sea, BaBy, and Really as decent measuring sticks when their recent TvP records/performances are taken into considerations. I know that the aforementioned players are skilled in the match-up, but judging the quality of their recent performances, it becomes difficult to specifically ascertain as to what should be credited for Bisu's recent TvP victories: Bisu suddenly resurging in his (historically) weakest match-up when he hasn't really changed his playstyle in that match-up, or the semi-slump that the majority of his recent Terran opponents have fallen into?
It can be a mixture of both reasons, though I personally see more of the latter in the mix than the former.
On January 17 2011 01:55 Nick_54 wrote: This bump is hilarious and sometimes shit happens in the individual leagues just look what happened to Flash against Classic Ssak and Hyuk.
Problem is, shit has been happening every season for Bisu for a couple of years now whereas for Flash it was just a bumb on the long, golden road he's been walking on for the last year.
Bisu and Flash slips are incomparable... Bisu's were straight up slumps. I'm calling Flash's more of a fluke. Cuz he's still tearing it up and beating strong opponents. He's got 2 3-kills with a bad wrist and he's gotten to the point where he adds nukes in TvT for funnsies.
Flash adds nukes in TvT against the only person in the world ANYONE would consider a favorite over Flash.
Anyhow, Flash is doing better than Bisu because he's got 2 more titles under his belt that he won last season. Bisu's performance will be worth recognizing when he can win 2 more titles. Preferably in the same season. It's a mockery that anyone thinks Bisu is better than Flash and this thread seems to be implying it like crazy.
...Right now, I'd take Bisu over Flash in anything but a head to head matchup. The only difference between their performances right now is that Bisu got knock out of the SLs by actual players, while Flash lost to scrubs. Other than that, they both look unstoppable in PL - and Flash vs Bisu is in a matchup Flash is historically good at and Bisu is historically not. Right now, whether Flash or Bisu is better is really an open question.
(Career-wise, it's no argument: Flash is way ahead. Just clarifying that. But I'm talking about at-this-moment.)
But what really got me was the "...against the only person in the world ANYONE would consider a favorite over Flash." Anyone who thinks sKyHigh's a favorite over Flash right now is delusional. sKyHigh's always been bad except for his TvT, and lately his TvT's been pretty shabby too. I can name two people I'd probably take over Flash right now: Stork and fantasy (despite fantasy's recent epic collapse game), and I don't think Flash would nuke either.
Right now, no one is better than Flash. I can't believe people even want to argue this. Better results is not a better player. As has been said, comparing Bisu to Flash? Lol.
That you would take Stork and Fantasy over Flash is dumb as well. Flash is seriously the best player in the world and yes, even one "bad" season by his standards doesn't change that.
But that's the problem: at some point better results are what makes someone a better player. And if we talk about best player right now, which I am doing, Bisu's results are just as good or better than Flash's, and Storks are even better. Yes, Flash gets more benefit of the doubt. Yes, Flash is likely to do as well or better as those two when the next season of SLs rolls around, or even as PL continues. But there's definite doubt right now who the best player is - Flash and Jaedong have momentum from older results, but Bisu and Stork have recently looked just as good, and fantasy is right behind those four with Hydra right behind him.
You're trying to define "best player" as... I don't even know how you're trying to define it, exactly. Is Flash the best player ever? Of course. But that's something determined by SL titles, finals, solid PL performance over the long haul, and when most of us talk about "Who's the best player?" we mean, "Who's playing best right now?", where "right now" is a matter of a couple months if not a few weeks. By that standard - the common one - is Flash's performance at this time the best there is around? I think Stork looks better: I think Bisu looks more unstoppable (except his PvT, asdfweafavea). All I'm saying is it's debatable: right now, Flash has challengers, even if it's mostly his own fault for epic failing out of the starleagues
(And then of course there's Jaedong, who's probably the favorite to win the MSL because I don't trust Stork's PvZ in a finals and if Stork manages to lose before that JD should roflstomp anybody else. But Bisu and Flash are probably both favored against Jaedong right now, though I personally think we're back to the Bisu wins the single PL game, JD wins the BoX standard we used to have.)
Flash was considered the best player for a long time. A few months ago he was declared bonjwa and there was no doubt in anyones mind that he was the best player.
If you look at his wins/losses from TLPD, you can see no change. Still mostly wins (about 80%). Nothing has changed, he always lost a few games here and there. So why is he suddenly perhaps not the best anymore? Did someone dethrone him or something that I missed?
Did ssak dethrone him or something? Because that was obviously a fluke. The next game they played flash dominated him pretty easily. Then he continued to beat SKT alone and Entus' lineup snow, leta and skyhigh which are all terran killers.
Flash never had 100% wins. He's usually around 80% and nothing has changed.
On January 17 2011 06:36 ibreakurface wrote: Lol, bisu fanboys are great.
Flash is hands down the best player. There is no point in defending that fact, and if you disagree with it you are a fool.
On January 17 2011 05:59 xMiragex wrote:
On January 17 2011 00:28 Roffles wrote: Bisu got crushed, because he plays PvT like ass. Any fanboys out there care to dispute this fact?
Are you sure you watched that game or SC at all? He played toe to toe (arguably better) than Flash until late game. His late game wasn't terrible in itself but attempting to expand that fast vs the best TvPer ever isn't the brightest thing to even consider.
TL;DR
Early game and Mid game
Bisu > Flash (arguably)
Late game
Bisu < Flash
= crushed? lol?
^I lol'd. Flash will walk over bisu everyday, any day. I don't care if bisu played a more solid early game or has a better worker split, he will lose to flash.
You're not understanding my point. im not arguing that Bisu is close to beating Flash atm, but he's not a punching bag (or as big as a punching bag) as before. It looks like he's making noticeable albeit minor improvements to his PvT (and he has his confidence back). Considering his PvT has been his weakest MU, if he keeps improving he can have a pretty nasty PvT, although more because of his mechanics, nothing like Stork who knows it inside and out.
What if Stork taught Bisu PvT and Bisu taught Stork PvZ it'd be like the two finally merged into an archon! The amount of rape would be indescribable.
On January 17 2011 06:36 ibreakurface wrote: Lol, bisu fanboys are great.
Flash is hands down the best player. There is no point in defending that fact, and if you disagree with it you are a fool.
On January 17 2011 05:59 xMiragex wrote:
On January 17 2011 00:28 Roffles wrote: Bisu got crushed, because he plays PvT like ass. Any fanboys out there care to dispute this fact?
Are you sure you watched that game or SC at all? He played toe to toe (arguably better) than Flash until late game. His late game wasn't terrible in itself but attempting to expand that fast vs the best TvPer ever isn't the brightest thing to even consider.
TL;DR
Early game and Mid game
Bisu > Flash (arguably)
Late game
Bisu < Flash
= crushed? lol?
^I lol'd. Flash will walk over bisu everyday, any day. I don't care if bisu played a more solid early game or has a better worker split, he will lose to flash.
You're not understanding my point. im not arguing that Bisu is close to beating Flash atm, but he's not a punching bag (or as big as a punching bag) as before. It looks like he's making noticeable albeit minor improvements to his PvT (and he has his confidence back). Considering his PvT has been his weakest MU, if he keeps improving he can have a pretty nasty PvT, although more because of his mechanics, nothing like Stork who knows it inside and out.
What if Stork taught Bisu PvT and Bisu taught Stork PvZ it'd be like the two finally merged into an archon! The amount of rape would be indescribable.
I believe Bisu and BeSt have been working on that for a couple years now... no go so far.
On January 17 2011 06:36 ibreakurface wrote: Lol, bisu fanboys are great.
Flash is hands down the best player. There is no point in defending that fact, and if you disagree with it you are a fool.
On January 17 2011 05:59 xMiragex wrote:
On January 17 2011 00:28 Roffles wrote: Bisu got crushed, because he plays PvT like ass. Any fanboys out there care to dispute this fact?
Are you sure you watched that game or SC at all? He played toe to toe (arguably better) than Flash until late game. His late game wasn't terrible in itself but attempting to expand that fast vs the best TvPer ever isn't the brightest thing to even consider.
TL;DR
Early game and Mid game
Bisu > Flash (arguably)
Late game
Bisu < Flash
= crushed? lol?
^I lol'd. Flash will walk over bisu everyday, any day. I don't care if bisu played a more solid early game or has a better worker split, he will lose to flash.
You're not understanding my point. im not arguing that Bisu is close to beating Flash atm, but he's not a punching bag (or as big as a punching bag) as before. It looks like he's making noticeable albeit minor improvements to his PvT (and he has his confidence back). Considering his PvT has been his weakest MU, if he keeps improving he can have a pretty nasty PvT, although more because of his mechanics, nothing like Stork who knows it inside and out.
What if Stork taught Bisu PvT and Bisu taught Stork PvZ it'd be like the two finally merged into an archon! The amount of rape would be indescribable.
I believe Bisu and BeSt have been working on that for a couple years now... no go so far.
Apparently Bisu is better than Best in practice but he still has some sort of tendency for throwing away his army into tanks.
On January 17 2011 06:36 ibreakurface wrote: Lol, bisu fanboys are great.
Flash is hands down the best player. There is no point in defending that fact, and if you disagree with it you are a fool.
On January 17 2011 05:59 xMiragex wrote:
On January 17 2011 00:28 Roffles wrote: Bisu got crushed, because he plays PvT like ass. Any fanboys out there care to dispute this fact?
Are you sure you watched that game or SC at all? He played toe to toe (arguably better) than Flash until late game. His late game wasn't terrible in itself but attempting to expand that fast vs the best TvPer ever isn't the brightest thing to even consider.
TL;DR
Early game and Mid game
Bisu > Flash (arguably)
Late game
Bisu < Flash
= crushed? lol?
^I lol'd. Flash will walk over bisu everyday, any day. I don't care if bisu played a more solid early game or has a better worker split, he will lose to flash.
You're not understanding my point. im not arguing that Bisu is close to beating Flash atm, but he's not a punching bag (or as big as a punching bag) as before. It looks like he's making noticeable albeit minor improvements to his PvT (and he has his confidence back). Considering his PvT has been his weakest MU, if he keeps improving he can have a pretty nasty PvT, although more because of his mechanics, nothing like Stork who knows it inside and out.
What if Stork taught Bisu PvT and Bisu taught Stork PvZ it'd be like the two finally merged into an archon! The amount of rape would be indescribable.
I believe Bisu and BeSt have been working on that for a couple years now... no go so far.
Apparently Bisu is better than Best in practice but he still has some sort of tendency for throwing away his army into tanks.
Yeah I read that BS too, I don't buy it though. Its great to be modest and all, but Bisu's vT doesn't hold a candle to BeSt's macro, and BeSt couldn't pull off Bisu's vZ if his life depended on it.
On January 17 2011 07:44 StylishVODs wrote: So why is he suddenly perhaps not the best anymore? Did someone dethrone him or something that I missed?
Did ssak dethrone him or something? Because that was obviously a fluke. The next game they played flash dominated him pretty easily. Then he continued to beat SKT alone and Entus' lineup snow, leta and skyhigh which are all terran killers.
Flash never had 100% wins. He's usually around 80% and nothing has changed.
I'm not saying he's not the best (okay, I am, I think Stork's better atm and Bisu might be), but what I'm trying to say above all is that it's not insane to think somebody might be better.
You say, "Did ssak dethrone him"? That's part of it. Flash lost (at least) three games that should have been gimmes - Ssak, Classic, and Hyuk, knocking him out of both leagues. This was stereotypical Flash back when he was you-ought-to-be-the-best-player-in-the-world-but-you-lose-dumb-games-Flash. In the meantime, although Jaedong took a similar dive he did get through the MSL (and is a favorite, though his PL performance is a little behind), and Bisu and Stork both have stepped up their game in a big way: Bisu got knocked out of leagues by actual quality players (Shine, Stork), while Stork is favored to win the OSL, and 2nd favorite behind Jaedong in the MSL. So between Flash failing (in patented non-bonjwa-Flash fashion) and other players stepping up, there's doubt. That's all I want to get people to admit. If you think Flash is still the best, that okay, but please admit there's legitimate room for debate - which people like TTT won't.
I can totally respect an argument like this:
On January 17 2011 07:20 Yxes2211 wrote: I'd rate TaekBangLeeSsang like this:
Just because Flash and Stork beat Bisu, and I would still favor Flash over Stork. Can anyone blame me? It's not that I don't think Stork could win, I just think the odds are in Flash's favor no matter how minor. Secondly, Stork smashed Bisu in a Bo3 so he should undoubtedly be above him, and both Stork and Bisu roflstomped my boy Jaedong...
Though as I mention I disagree. I think Stork's #1 and would beat Flash - but he might lose, and it might come down to the map. Depending what you think of Bisu he's either #2 or #3 with Flash in the other spot. But it's very very tight at the top, for the first time in a while, and some Flash fans don't seem to be able to deal with this.
On January 17 2011 06:36 ibreakurface wrote: Lol, bisu fanboys are great.
Flash is hands down the best player. There is no point in defending that fact, and if you disagree with it you are a fool.
On January 17 2011 05:59 xMiragex wrote:
On January 17 2011 00:28 Roffles wrote: Bisu got crushed, because he plays PvT like ass. Any fanboys out there care to dispute this fact?
Are you sure you watched that game or SC at all? He played toe to toe (arguably better) than Flash until late game. His late game wasn't terrible in itself but attempting to expand that fast vs the best TvPer ever isn't the brightest thing to even consider.
TL;DR
Early game and Mid game
Bisu > Flash (arguably)
Late game
Bisu < Flash
= crushed? lol?
^I lol'd. Flash will walk over bisu everyday, any day. I don't care if bisu played a more solid early game or has a better worker split, he will lose to flash.
You're not understanding my point. im not arguing that Bisu is close to beating Flash atm, but he's not a punching bag (or as big as a punching bag) as before. It looks like he's making noticeable albeit minor improvements to his PvT (and he has his confidence back). Considering his PvT has been his weakest MU, if he keeps improving he can have a pretty nasty PvT, although more because of his mechanics, nothing like Stork who knows it inside and out.
What if Stork taught Bisu PvT and Bisu taught Stork PvZ it'd be like the two finally merged into an archon! The amount of rape would be indescribable.
I believe Bisu and BeSt have been working on that for a couple years now... no go so far.
Apparently Bisu is better than Best in practice but he still has some sort of tendency for throwing away his army into tanks.
Yeah I read that BS too, I don't buy it though. Its great to be modest and all, but Bisu's vT doesn't hold a candle to BeSt's macro, and BeSt couldn't pull off Bisu's vZ if his life depended on it.
Bisu has a higher ELO peak vT than Best, and which player is S-class? I certainly believe it.
On January 17 2011 06:36 ibreakurface wrote: Lol, bisu fanboys are great.
Flash is hands down the best player. There is no point in defending that fact, and if you disagree with it you are a fool.
On January 17 2011 05:59 xMiragex wrote:
On January 17 2011 00:28 Roffles wrote: Bisu got crushed, because he plays PvT like ass. Any fanboys out there care to dispute this fact?
Are you sure you watched that game or SC at all? He played toe to toe (arguably better) than Flash until late game. His late game wasn't terrible in itself but attempting to expand that fast vs the best TvPer ever isn't the brightest thing to even consider.
TL;DR
Early game and Mid game
Bisu > Flash (arguably)
Late game
Bisu < Flash
= crushed? lol?
^I lol'd. Flash will walk over bisu everyday, any day. I don't care if bisu played a more solid early game or has a better worker split, he will lose to flash.
You're not understanding my point. im not arguing that Bisu is close to beating Flash atm, but he's not a punching bag (or as big as a punching bag) as before. It looks like he's making noticeable albeit minor improvements to his PvT (and he has his confidence back). Considering his PvT has been his weakest MU, if he keeps improving he can have a pretty nasty PvT, although more because of his mechanics, nothing like Stork who knows it inside and out.
What if Stork taught Bisu PvT and Bisu taught Stork PvZ it'd be like the two finally merged into an archon! The amount of rape would be indescribable.
I believe Bisu and BeSt have been working on that for a couple years now... no go so far.
Apparently Bisu is better than Best in practice but he still has some sort of tendency for throwing away his army into tanks.
Yeah I read that BS too, I don't buy it though. Its great to be modest and all, but Bisu's vT doesn't hold a candle to BeSt's macro, and BeSt couldn't pull off Bisu's vZ if his life depended on it.
Bisu has a higher ELO peak vT than Best, and which player is S-class? I certainly believe it.
By 10 points, and you're talking peak, BeSt currently has 59 vT ELO on Bisu, and has been ahead of him for a long while. When players hit a new peak and then drop shortly after (like Flash did a few times) there's not too much value to be had there. And S-class isn't a defined term. Bisu is much more solid vZ and vP, BeSt is one of the top vT tosses in the game. If only BeSt could actually have learned a thing or two in his other matchups from Bisu
On January 17 2011 06:36 ibreakurface wrote: Lol, bisu fanboys are great.
Flash is hands down the best player. There is no point in defending that fact, and if you disagree with it you are a fool.
On January 17 2011 05:59 xMiragex wrote:
On January 17 2011 00:28 Roffles wrote: Bisu got crushed, because he plays PvT like ass. Any fanboys out there care to dispute this fact?
Are you sure you watched that game or SC at all? He played toe to toe (arguably better) than Flash until late game. His late game wasn't terrible in itself but attempting to expand that fast vs the best TvPer ever isn't the brightest thing to even consider.
TL;DR
Early game and Mid game
Bisu > Flash (arguably)
Late game
Bisu < Flash
= crushed? lol?
^I lol'd. Flash will walk over bisu everyday, any day. I don't care if bisu played a more solid early game or has a better worker split, he will lose to flash.
You're not understanding my point. im not arguing that Bisu is close to beating Flash atm, but he's not a punching bag (or as big as a punching bag) as before. It looks like he's making noticeable albeit minor improvements to his PvT (and he has his confidence back). Considering his PvT has been his weakest MU, if he keeps improving he can have a pretty nasty PvT, although more because of his mechanics, nothing like Stork who knows it inside and out.
What if Stork taught Bisu PvT and Bisu taught Stork PvZ it'd be like the two finally merged into an archon! The amount of rape would be indescribable.
I believe Bisu and BeSt have been working on that for a couple years now... no go so far.
Apparently Bisu is better than Best in practice but he still has some sort of tendency for throwing away his army into tanks.
Yeah I read that BS too, I don't buy it though. Its great to be modest and all, but Bisu's vT doesn't hold a candle to BeSt's macro, and BeSt couldn't pull off Bisu's vZ if his life depended on it.
Bisu has a higher ELO peak vT than Best, and which player is S-class? I certainly believe it.
By 10 points, and you're talking peak, BeSt currently has 59 vT ELO on Bisu, and has been ahead of him for a long while. When players hit a new peak and then drop shortly after (like Flash did a few times) there's not too much value to be had there. And S-class isn't a defined term. Bisu is much more solid vZ and vP, BeSt is one of the top vT tosses in the game. If only BeSt could actually have learned a thing or two in his other matchups from Bisu
Best was once the greatest vP, it was Stork vT Bisu vZ and Best vP master. He lost it somewhere along the way though.
On August 19 2010 16:02 G5 wrote: Such little faith. Please re-visit this thread in 3-4 months and take a pic of your face plz. I wanna see your expression when you realize how wrong you were and who exactly you questioned. Bisu is solid, strong, reliable and the highest paid progamer (afaik) today (talk about motivation). This man might loose games every once in a while, no one can win every time. He will revolutionize himself as he has done countless times. Every time I hear about a slump I think, wait 3-4 months. Why? Because not only does the test of time prove someone right or wrong but also the fact that some players styles just don't work well with certain maps and a new map pool could change everything around. And Bisu sure the fuck has style. I am not going fan boy here, I actually never liked Bisu's style to much but he is way too talented and skilled to just drop off the face of the map. Give it time. Bisu will succeed.
Well more like 4-5 months, but G5's prediction was pretty accurate. =P
As for the current state of Bisu: his performance in SPL/SWL has been pretty solid (He has the most amount of wins as of now iirc). As for his SL performance, his OSL droupout was attributed to Shine (his nemesis, whom he had slain in MSL) and he dropped out of MSL due to Stork (who is a likely contender for both SL titles atm). I feel that with Bisu's current state, he should be able to go far into at least one league next season.
What I feel Bisu is still lacking in is: PvT, which he needs to fix if he wants to return to a dominant position, and beign able to go toe-to-toe with other dominant players. Bisu does exhibit PvZ capable of taking on Jaedong and kind of has PvP that can kinda take on Stork (If he learns how to compound advantages), but his PvT is not quite in the shape it is to take on Flash. If Bisu can fix the latetr 2 matchups and make them more solid, then I'm sure that he can be a contendor for a SL title next season
I think it's worth it to note that the OP is a general strategy consultant and it's his job to come up with vague, meaningless statistics and make some sort of bad conclusions about them and get paid for it.
why are people so surprised that the OP is wrong :O
What about Flash's current play... aside from a few crappy losses last month... say he isn't as good as always? Flash still dominating players the same way he was last year... geez... Its like people remember every loss Flash has as a month long slump or something. Or if Flash doesn't go out first for KT and AK every week then he's slumping... Its not about his past performances, its that his play hasn't changed and he still wins games in the same dominating fashion...
God I'm happy that we got Stork and Bisu playing sick, especially after the Toss slump towards the end of last season, but how can u look at Flash and say he isn't the dominating player he was last year.
Stork vs Flash in a Bo5 would be SICK though, since Stork and Flash are really smart players, rather than mechanics oriented players.
Can we just take a minute and realize nobody is denying that Flash is one of the best 3 or 4 players now, and hands down the best Terran, and not unlikely to reassert clear #1 status when the next SL season rolls around?
Good. I thought we could do that.
Can we just take another minute and realize that Flash's performance over the last month/this Starleague season is no better than at least two other players' (Stork, Bisu)?
On January 17 2011 09:01 Milkis wrote: I think it's worth it to note that the OP is a general strategy consultant and it's his job to come up with vague, meaningless statistics and make some sort of bad conclusions about them and get paid for it.
why are people so surprised that the OP is wrong :O
^ ^ won thread. Yes Flash dominated the last year. Yes he is likely to back to the top next SLs. Yes his results at this moment is not better than Bisu's and kinda worse than Stork's.
On January 17 2011 01:55 Nick_54 wrote: This bump is hilarious and sometimes shit happens in the individual leagues just look what happened to Flash against Classic Ssak and Hyuk.
Problem is, shit has been happening every season for Bisu for a couple of years now whereas for Flash it was just a bumb on the long, golden road he's been walking on for the last year.
Bisu and Flash slips are incomparable... Bisu's were straight up slumps. I'm calling Flash's more of a fluke. Cuz he's still tearing it up and beating strong opponents. He's got 2 3-kills with a bad wrist and he's gotten to the point where he adds nukes in TvT for funnsies.
Flash adds nukes in TvT against the only person in the world ANYONE would consider a favorite over Flash.
Anyhow, Flash is doing better than Bisu because he's got 2 more titles under his belt that he won last season. Bisu's performance will be worth recognizing when he can win 2 more titles. Preferably in the same season. It's a mockery that anyone thinks Bisu is better than Flash and this thread seems to be implying it like crazy.
...Right now, I'd take Bisu over Flash in anything but a head to head matchup. The only difference between their performances right now is that Bisu got knock out of the SLs by actual players, while Flash lost to scrubs. Other than that, they both look unstoppable in PL - and Flash vs Bisu is in a matchup Flash is historically good at and Bisu is historically not. Right now, whether Flash or Bisu is better is really an open question.
(Career-wise, it's no argument: Flash is way ahead. Just clarifying that. But I'm talking about at-this-moment.)
But what really got me was the "...against the only person in the world ANYONE would consider a favorite over Flash." Anyone who thinks sKyHigh's a favorite over Flash right now is delusional. sKyHigh's always been bad except for his TvT, and lately his TvT's been pretty shabby too. I can name two people I'd probably take over Flash right now: Stork and fantasy (despite fantasy's recent epic collapse game), and I don't think Flash would nuke either.
Right now, no one is better than Flash. I can't believe people even want to argue this. Better results is not a better player. As has been said, comparing Bisu to Flash? Lol.
That you would take Stork and Fantasy over Flash is dumb as well. Flash is seriously the best player in the world and yes, even one "bad" season by his standards doesn't change that.
But that's the problem: at some point better results are what makes someone a better player. And if we talk about best player right now, which I am doing, Bisu's results are just as good or better than Flash's, and Storks are even better. Yes, Flash gets more benefit of the doubt. Yes, Flash is likely to do as well or better as those two when the next season of SLs rolls around, or even as PL continues. But there's definite doubt right now who the best player is - Flash and Jaedong have momentum from older results, but Bisu and Stork have recently looked just as good, and fantasy is right behind those four with Hydra right behind him.
You're trying to define "best player" as... I don't even know how you're trying to define it, exactly. Is Flash the best player ever? Of course. But that's something determined by SL titles, finals, solid PL performance over the long haul, and when most of us talk about "Who's the best player?" we mean, "Who's playing best right now?", where "right now" is a matter of a couple months if not a few weeks. By that standard - the common one - is Flash's performance at this time the best there is around? I think Stork looks better: I think Bisu looks more unstoppable (except his PvT, asdfweafavea). All I'm saying is it's debatable: right now, Flash has challengers, even if it's mostly his own fault for epic failing out of the starleagues
(And then of course there's Jaedong, who's probably the favorite to win the MSL because I don't trust Stork's PvZ in a finals and if Stork manages to lose before that JD should roflstomp anybody else. But Bisu and Flash are probably both favored against Jaedong right now, though I personally think we're back to the Bisu wins the single PL game, JD wins the BoX standard we used to have.)
Flash is the best player because he plays the best. How many more times does he have to decimate the #1 team in proleague, or how many more titles beyond fucking two in one season does he have to do to prove it?
Flash being out of both leagues doesn't make Stork a better player. It makes Stork a more successful player for this season -- the exact goddamn same merit applies to MODESTY, and no one's mentioning him because he's no one's favorite player and the accusation is ridiculous. This applies to Stork -- less so because Stork is obviously the better player, you would say, and that is my logic for Flash. You can't call modesty a better player than Flash or Jaedong just because he's struck deeper into a tournament for one season because that'd be dumb, considering just what those two have proven to us. You can't say Stork is better just because he has struck deeper this season in the leagues than Flash because of what Flash has achieved and how well he's still playing.
Every progamer and their mothers will tell you one damn thing when asked who the best player in the world is: Flash. They say it for a reason and you're absolutely blind not to see it. It was the same with Jaedong and Bisu before Flash decided to snatch the bonjwa title. I said the SAME goddamn thing about Jaedong when he was at his best. My KT title might confuse you otherwise but Flash is the best player because he's not far removed from winning two titles in one season and he's still playing absolutely excellent starcraft. He's playing the exact kind of jaw dropping games that made him a bonjwa.
He wasn't the damn bonjwa for 4 games this season. That's enough to kick you out of a tournament, it's not enough to suddenly strip you of the best player moniker. It's a fickle wind on TL. It took him dethroning almost every accomplishment Nada had for people to finally accept him as bonjwa after a straight year of domination, but here we are, the forum doing it's absolute best to pretend he's somehow not the same player.
ugh wow this entire argument about flash v. stork v. bisu v. whoever else is, as far as I can tell, based around ONE discrepancy:
What does it mean to be the BEST player? Best play? Best results? Most momentum or dominance?
And does it refer to the best player of recent times (past few weeks) or long-term (past few months)?
While (@ above post) there's certainly no way to argue Modesty has the best play, he does have both momentum and results behind him. Flash has very strong play (although more mortal than in the past), but his results aren't spectacular. Stork is showing off all three: he's barreling right over pretty much everyone in every league.
Is Flash the best player of the last year? I can't argue against that, and indeed anyone would be hard pressed to argue against the hardware he's gathered.
Is Flash the best player of the last months? That's certainly debatable. Even if Stork and Bisu have been playing better (which I think is true), that doesn't mean Flash isn't a bonjwa anymore.
Regarding Bisu in particular: Here's where I think the results make a faulty argument. Sure, Bisu and Flash were eliminated in leagues about the same time. But who was Bisu eliminated by? Shine (who was/is on a streak of absolute rape in ZvP) and Stork (who isn't PR #1 for no reason). It took Classic, Ssak, and Hyuk to eliminate Flash.
Just wanted to throw out, once one is bonjwa, the title doesn't go away, unless you do something to ruin your reputation (Savior...) Boxer, Nada, Oov are still bonjwa.
Edit: at least, as far as i've noticed how the usage of bonjwa is around here.
Just wanted to throw out, once one is bonjwa, the title doesn't go away, unless you do something to ruin your reputation (Savior...) Boxer, Nada, Oov are still bonjwa.
Edit: at least, as far as i've noticed how the usage of bonjwa is around here.
Just wanted to throw out, once one is bonjwa, the title doesn't go away, unless you do something to ruin your reputation (Savior...) Boxer, Nada, Oov are still bonjwa.
Edit: at least, as far as i've noticed how the usage of bonjwa is around here.
That was a semi-response to the post above mine
Ah, fair enough.
I just don't want people who are semi-new to the scene flailing about "FLASH ISNT BONJWA HES A NOOB KEKEKKE"
But I agree for the most part. I think the best measurement of being the best player is the overall level of play, and right now Stork may be the best player right now, though Flash may be just as good. Until there is a best of 100 between the two on an even map, we won't be sure until some more time pasts. In my opinion, Bisu is still not playing as well as Flash is.
Just wanted to throw out, once one is bonjwa, the title doesn't go away, unless you do something to ruin your reputation (Savior...) Boxer, Nada, Oov are still bonjwa.
Edit: at least, as far as i've noticed how the usage of bonjwa is around here.
Except I refuse to consider Flash a bonjwa until Jaedong gets the recognition deserved, since he has been more dominant in every category and done so longer. Look at the records thread and see for yourself. If Jaedong has Flash beat overall and Jaedong isn't bonjwa (by some arbitrary TLPD standard), then neither is Flash. I'm not alone in this opinion, either.
The only argument I've heard that supposedly made Flash a bonjwa was a dual victory over Jaedong. Except, if beating Jaedong is what it takes to make you a bonjwa, you inherently imply Jaedong to already be of bonjwa status (which he is).
On January 17 2011 10:54 infinitestory wrote: ugh wow this entire argument about flash v. stork v. bisu v. whoever else is, as far as I can tell, based around ONE discrepancy:
What does it mean to be the BEST player? Best play? Best results? Most momentum or dominance?
And does it refer to the best player of recent times (past few weeks) or long-term (past few months)?
While (@ above post) there's certainly no way to argue Modesty has the best play, he does have both momentum and results behind him. Flash has very strong play (although more mortal than in the past), but his results aren't spectacular. Stork is showing off all three: he's barreling right over pretty much everyone in every league.
Is Flash the best player of the last year? I can't argue against that, and indeed anyone would be hard pressed to argue against the hardware he's gathered.
Is Flash the best player of the last months? That's certainly debatable. Even if Stork and Bisu have been playing better (which I think is true), that doesn't mean Flash isn't a bonjwa anymore.
Regarding Bisu in particular: Here's where I think the results make a faulty argument. Sure, Bisu and Flash were eliminated in leagues about the same time. But who was Bisu eliminated by? Shine (who was/is on a streak of absolute rape in ZvP) and Stork (who isn't PR #1 for no reason). It took Classic, Ssak, and Hyuk to eliminate Flash.
My point is that people have this unusual double standard they apply to their favorite players. They want to say Stork and Bisu are better than Flash because they got further in tournaments this year. From a purely first level of thought it's a bit reasonable, but by that same merit, they will never admit that Modesty is the better player to Bisu despite being in the Ro4 of a tournament right now. They say this because they know that A: Bisu has more past success than modesty. B: Bisu plays more impressive games than modesty. C: Modesty hasn't beaten Bisu in a series. D: Well come on modesty's just a scrub who got a luckier draw in the tournament than Bisu.
The list goes on, and all the reasons why Modesty isn't a better player than Bisu is why no one in the world is a better player than Flash. Stork has a shot at it if he wins both tournaments this season and keeps it up through next season while Flash doesn't live up to expectations, and it'll help if he can take down Flash in PL or something. I just think it's dumb to throw out kneejerk statements of who's a better play, even ~right now~ as the magic words are when it's so backwards.
Just wanted to throw out, once one is bonjwa, the title doesn't go away, unless you do something to ruin your reputation (Savior...) Boxer, Nada, Oov are still bonjwa.
Edit: at least, as far as i've noticed how the usage of bonjwa is around here.
Except I refuse to consider Flash a bonjwa until Jaedong gets the recognition deserved, since he has been more dominant in every category and done so longer. Look at the records thread and see for yourself. If Jaedong has Flash beat overall and Jaedong isn't bonjwa (by some arbitrary TLPD standard), then neither is Flash. I'm not alone in this opinion, either.
The only argument I've heard that supposedly made Flash a bonjwa was a dual victory over Jaedong. Except, if beating Jaedong is what it takes to make you a bonjwa, you inherently imply Jaedong to already be of bonjwa status (which he is).
Flash became a bonjwa because he beat everyone everywhere all the time. Your logic is flawed because Boxer didn't have to dethrone a bonjwa to become one -- that's not like some necessary requirement. Flash could've beaten 2 players who weren't Jaedong in both finals and still been bonjwa because winning WL, SPL, OSL and MSL all in the same general time span after winning two straight titles and tons of silvers and blah blah. Jaedong didn't do close to what Flash did and didn't dominate nearly as hard as Flash did -- his best overall performance is winning the OSL, Ro8 MSL and runner up in SPL (This isn't AS indicative as the previous two but it's noteworthy) before Flash's bonjwa run started. If he had achieved what Flash did they would've called him God Jae Dong in Korea the same way they do with Flash now.
It's a matter of intangibles over stats, but even stats back him up. Jaedong was never in 2 finals at once until he lost to Flash. There's no such thing as co-bonjwas.
On January 17 2011 10:54 infinitestory wrote: ugh wow this entire argument about flash v. stork v. bisu v. whoever else is, as far as I can tell, based around ONE discrepancy:
What does it mean to be the BEST player? Best play? Best results? Most momentum or dominance?
And does it refer to the best player of recent times (past few weeks) or long-term (past few months)?
While (@ above post) there's certainly no way to argue Modesty has the best play, he does have both momentum and results behind him. Flash has very strong play (although more mortal than in the past), but his results aren't spectacular. Stork is showing off all three: he's barreling right over pretty much everyone in every league.
Is Flash the best player of the last year? I can't argue against that, and indeed anyone would be hard pressed to argue against the hardware he's gathered.
Is Flash the best player of the last months? That's certainly debatable. Even if Stork and Bisu have been playing better (which I think is true), that doesn't mean Flash isn't a bonjwa anymore.
Regarding Bisu in particular: Here's where I think the results make a faulty argument. Sure, Bisu and Flash were eliminated in leagues about the same time. But who was Bisu eliminated by? Shine (who was/is on a streak of absolute rape in ZvP) and Stork (who isn't PR #1 for no reason). It took Classic, Ssak, and Hyuk to eliminate Flash.
My point is that people have this unusual double standard they apply to their favorite players. They want to say Stork and Bisu are better than Flash because they got further in tournaments this year. From a purely first level of thought it's a bit reasonable, but by that same merit, they will never admit that Modesty is the better player to Bisu despite being in the Ro4 of a tournament right now. They say this because they know that A: Bisu has more past success than modesty. B: Bisu plays more impressive games than modesty. C: Modesty hasn't beaten Bisu in a series. D: Well come on modesty's just a scrub who got a luckier draw in the tournament than Bisu.
The list goes on, and all the reasons why Modesty isn't a better player than Bisu is why no one in the world is a better player than Flash. Stork has a shot at it if he wins both tournaments this season and keeps it up through next season while Flash doesn't live up to expectations, and it'll help if he can take down Flash in PL or something. I just think it's dumb to throw out kneejerk statements of who's a better play, even ~right now~ as the magic words are when it's so backwards.
Just wanted to throw out, once one is bonjwa, the title doesn't go away, unless you do something to ruin your reputation (Savior...) Boxer, Nada, Oov are still bonjwa.
Edit: at least, as far as i've noticed how the usage of bonjwa is around here.
Except I refuse to consider Flash a bonjwa until Jaedong gets the recognition deserved, since he has been more dominant in every category and done so longer. Look at the records thread and see for yourself. If Jaedong has Flash beat overall and Jaedong isn't bonjwa (by some arbitrary TLPD standard), then neither is Flash. I'm not alone in this opinion, either.
The only argument I've heard that supposedly made Flash a bonjwa was a dual victory over Jaedong. Except, if beating Jaedong is what it takes to make you a bonjwa, you inherently imply Jaedong to already be of bonjwa status (which he is).
Flash became a bonjwa because he beat everyone everywhere all the time. Your logic is flawed because Boxer didn't have to dethrone a bonjwa to become one -- that's not like some necessary requirement. Flash could've beaten 2 players who weren't Jaedong in both finals and still been bonjwa because winning WL, SPL, OSL and MSL all in the same general time span after winning two straight titles and tons of silvers and blah blah. Jaedong didn't do close to what Flash did and didn't dominate nearly as hard as Flash did -- his best overall performance is winning the OSL, Ro8 MSL and runner up in SPL (This isn't AS indicative as the previous two but it's noteworthy) before Flash's bonjwa run started. If he had achieved what Flash did they would've called him God Jae Dong in Korea the same way they do with Flash now.
It's a matter of intangibles over stats, but even stats back him up. Jaedong was never in 2 finals at once until he lost to Flash. There's no such thing as co-bonjwas.
Then would you say that NaDa shouldn't really have the title of bonjwa because he never dominated like Flash did? What makes Jaedong great is his consistency. Assuming he makes the MSL finals (which right now looks rather likely) he will have made at least one finals appearance for six seasons in a row, I think the next closest is SaviOr with finals 4 seasons in a row. Now that's a record that I bet Flash will never beat.
In the end it's a stupid argument anyway, since it is the Korean community that decides who's bonjwa and who isn't. We really need to come up with a title of our own here on TL. Maybe we should create a hall of fame or something like that, reserved for the very best, and drop pointless bonjwa discussions altogether.
I think the most important matter to bring up in order to clarify this conflict:
Yes, FlaSh is presently a bonjwa, but he NOW finally has a decent pool of competition to deal with: Jaedong is still one of his largest obstacles as always, Stork is picking up the pace on his play, Bisu is resurging big time from his slump, and a large roster of A-Class players are now able to at least give FlaSh a run for his money more now than ever (BeSt/FanTaSy/Light/snOw/Kal/etc.)
FlaSh may be the best right now, but at least he now has a larger pool of competition to deal with in order to retain his bonjwa status. He may have dropped the most recent individual leagues, but his current performances in the team leagues only shows that not only is FlaSh still playing well, he's ready for more.
On January 17 2011 13:01 Goragoth wrote: Assuming he makes the MSL finals (which right now looks rather likely) he will have made at least one finals appearance for six seasons in a row, I think the next closest is SaviOr with finals 4 seasons in a row. Now that's a record that I bet Flash will never beat.
You're saying positive things for Jaedong but not positive things for Flash? That would kind of being biased. Sure Jaedong would make the most consecutive Finals, but will he consecutive Dual Finals? That's a record I bet Jaedong will never beat. See what I did there?
On January 17 2011 11:15 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash became a bonjwa because he beat everyone everywhere all the time. Your logic is flawed because Boxer didn't have to dethrone a bonjwa to become one -- that's not like some necessary requirement.
Never said it was. However, it wasn't until he beat Jaedong that people decided "he's God," "he must be a bonjwa."
Flash could've beaten 2 players who weren't Jaedong in both finals and still been bonjwa because winning WL, SPL, OSL and MSL all in the same general time span after winning two straight titles and tons of silvers and blah blah.
No, I doubt this. The comments by and large at the time all had the consensus that it was because he beat Jaedong x2, not that he won dual titles.
[/quote] Jaedong didn't do close to what Flash did and didn't dominate nearly as hard as Flash did.[/QUOTE] This is wrong.
-Jaedong still has the second most OSL/MSL wins of all time (behind Nada), and has more silvers than Flash does and I believe more top 4/8 appearances, as well. -He has the highest vs P ELO ever achieved by any player and held the highest vs Z for months (years?) before Flash edged him out by 1 win. -Flash has held #1 Terran for 20 months straight; Jaedong has held it for 36 months (three full years) straight. -Jaedong has a 76.34% winrate vs Z, despite 186 games played, which I'm pretty confident is the highest win percentage ever for any matchup for a player with >100 games. -Jaedong holds the ZvT and ZvP streak; Flash holds the TvT and TvP streak. -Whenever Jaedong or Flash plays, they are always the favorite, regardless of who they play or what the map is.
Tell me how Flash is more accomplished when nearly everything favors Jaedong or is equal? Three years of dominance plus the #2 final wins somehow isn't "long enough" or "good enough?" Ridiculous.
those of you who say bisu recently got owned by flash... watch the game again.
imo right now stork is just godlike.
#1: stork #2: flash #3: bisu/jaedong
i am a hardcore bisu fan, but i have to accept the truth.
still, all you people saying bisu sucks PvT... why are you making it seem like his PvT is absurdly weak? it used to be, but it's not anymore. he's not headbutting into tank/mine lines as much anymore; he's not doing dumb recalls anymore; he's IMPROVING. he doesn't need to prove ANYTHING about his PvT. this is mainly directed at this guy:
On January 17 2011 03:39 SkytoM wrote: I also think Bisu's PvT is still horrible. His PvP is very shaky too. I think his good results are kinda fluky for a player who is considered "S-Class". He's not. He's A-Class with an ubergodly PvZ.
gtfo. the ONLY two players he has trouble against right now are stork and flash. he has proven himself capable of comfortably beating everyone else.
I think you're misunderstanding the point, Craton.
Jaedong didn't do close to what flash did during 2010 in any of the years Jaedong played. This is a true statement, if you look at how the year went for flash you cannot say jaedong was close to that. However it has nothing to do with how accomplished they are.
Flash is not more accomplished than Jaedong, because Jaedong's "lesser" dominance is stretched over a longer period of time.
There are two things to consider when deciding how good a player is -- the player's momentum/force behind them, and the player's actual skill level. Those two are obviously related -- the stronger the player the more force they'll have.
Note that Stork and Bisu both had a meteoric rise to the top this season. There's no doubt that they have a lot of momentum, but it's not quite enough to discredit Flash or Jaedong in terms of how Lee Ssang dominated last year -- I think people are quite overvaluing Stork and Bisu's momentum due to how quickly they rose to the top.
Except I refuse to consider Flash a bonjwa until Jaedong gets the recognition deserved, since he has been more dominant in every category and done so longer. Look at the records thread and see for yourself. If Jaedong has Flash beat overall and Jaedong isn't bonjwa (by some arbitrary TLPD standard), then neither is Flash. I'm not alone in this opinion, either.
The only argument I've heard that supposedly made Flash a bonjwa was a dual victory over Jaedong. Except, if beating Jaedong is what it takes to make you a bonjwa, you inherently imply Jaedong to already be of bonjwa status (which he is).
The term "Bonjwa" is purely about Force -- Flash hit Bonjwa precisely at the moment that he won Korean Air OSL Season 2. The reason why it had to wait until then was because Jaedong was still a huge formidable opponent up to that point. You can't be "bonjwa" at the same time with another person. They fought each other, they took games against each other, and they each made it clear at critical moments that they can and will stand in each other's ways to stop their domination. Flash by destroying Jaedong in two consecutive finals after he finished his campaigns of dominating everything else kind of sealed the deal -- the feeling, the force Flash gave off was "not even Jaedong can stop Flash".
It's kinda true. Only Flash (or wrist injuries) will be the one who can stop Flash. Jaedong didnt need to be bonjwa at all for it to make sense, Flash just needed to dominate the one person who we thought could stand up to Flash. And he did.
In the end it's a stupid argument anyway, since it is the Korean community that decides who's bonjwa and who isn't. We really need to come up with a title of our own here on TL. Maybe we should create a hall of fame or something like that, reserved for the very best, and drop pointless bonjwa discussions altogether.
koreans dont even use bonjwa anymore, they just call Flash "god". He has been called "god" for a while now, and everytime someone stands up to Flash it's like "you dare challenge god?" kind of deal. Defeating Jaedong, the last "human" is actually what sealed Flash as "god" in the Korean BW world lol
Tell me how Flash is more accomplished when nearly everything favors Jaedong or is equal? Three years of dominance plus the #2 final wins somehow isn't "long enough" or "good enough?" Ridiculous.
It's how THOROUGHLY flash dominated the past season that gave Flash the aura. Jaedong was consistently "dominant" but he didn't thoroughly dominate, so to speak -- things such as losing during Proleague finals when it counted most, etc kinda hurt him a lot in terms of that.
On January 17 2011 09:01 Milkis wrote: I think it's worth it to note that the OP is a general strategy consultant and it's his job to come up with vague, meaningless statistics and make some sort of bad conclusions about them and get paid for it.
why are people so surprised that the OP is wrong :O
sorry that we didn't give you an interview
someone is clutching at straws! but i guess it's kinda hard to laugh it off eh (well it was mostly a friendly joke since I do kinda know you ;p)
I think the truly amazing thing is that we are currently witnessing the two greatest players this game has ever had. On the one hand Flash who has already edged out Oov/SaviOr for most dominant player in the history of the game and on the other hand Jaedong who is close to edging out NaDa for most consistent player ever (only time will tell of course). Not to mention that all of this is happening at a time where the competition is as tough as it has ever been.
On January 17 2011 15:30 Milkis wrote: Flash by destroying Jaedong in two consecutive finals after he finished his campaigns of dominating everything else kind of sealed the deal -- the feeling, the force Flash gave off was "not even Jaedong can stop Flash".
On January 17 2011 15:30 Milkis wrote: Flash by destroying Jaedong in two consecutive finals after he finished his campaigns of dominating everything else kind of sealed the deal -- the feeling, the force Flash gave off was "not even Jaedong can stop Flash".
Three. It was three finals in a row.
yeah, but two after the proleague finals -- i think it was the aura of KT going "we have flash we're going to win" and Flash sealing the deal combined with the two finals after that that really sealed the deal overall.
On January 17 2011 06:42 ibreakurface wrote: Even vs. fantasy it wouldn't be accurate, team-kills are volatile.
Also, fox is a well rounded team, Roro, shine, midas, baby, mind, and pure. I wouldn't say they are terran centered.
Then who would be a good measuring stick? I understand that team-kills are unpredictable but I can't really think of any other Terran besides FlaSh and FanTaSy that would solidly reveal Bisu's present PvT capabilities.
I know FOX is a deep team, I guess I worded that wrong. What I meant to get across was my personal surprise at Bisu facing a single Terran (BaBy) when FOX could have practically thrown at least one other Terran against Bisu instead of throwing Pure at him (Shine was somewhat understandable).
Not that I'm trying to claim that Mind or Midas would have fared off any better than Pure against Bisu, I'm just a bit surprised that they didn't try to knock out Bisu by playing towards his weakness.
Well pure beat bisu a few times last year so I guess they thought he could again, he is a PvP sniper after-all. As for who would be a good measuring stick to test bisus vT, only time can tell. If he consistently beats top 5 terrans, or shows good play in his vT's, we will know. Winning a game vs a top terran, or even a set, won't tell if he has a solid vT.
On February 19 2011 06:18 Easy772 wrote: That's crazy, funny thing is BJ Penn just knocked out Matt Hughes in like 3 seconds as well. I guess miracles do happen eh?
I am willing to bet my signature that Bisu won't make it into the Ro4 in either the next OSL or MSL, or that his ELO will slip by more than 80 points from his current level by May 18th. His current performance is mainly a function of harass-friendly and P-friendly maps. Once maps return to maps which reward solid defensive players, his performance will suffer.
If not, I offer my signature to be decided upon by a self-identified Bisu fan.
On February 19 2011 09:23 l0st_romantic wrote: I am willing to bet my signature that Bisu won't make it into the Ro4 in either the next OSL or MSL, or that his ELO will slip by more than 80 points from his current level by May 18th. His current performance is mainly a function of harass-friendly and P-friendly maps. Once maps return to maps which reward solid defensive players, his performance will suffer.
If not, I offer my signature to be decided upon by a self-identified Bisu fan.
while I agree with you that Bisu will have hard time getting another shot at a starleague, you simply cannot ignore his presence at the moment. When he went on paid vacation and came back , he was able to do something very few ppl ,if any managed to do before him - getting back to his basics. In the last years, Bisu hasnt evolved to a new stage of his play, he regressed to the one thing that defines his career - his PvZ. There are very few anomalies in BroodWar, the domination of most of the great players, excluding savior maybe, is taking the maximum advantage of their momentum, the state of the metagame, the maps. If you look at Bisu's PvZ for the past 12, maybe even 24 months you will see how irrelevant the MU or the map balance was for his performance. If that doesnt make his abilities any justice you can look at his winning streak against the best ZvP player of all time - Jaedong. Up to date, Bisu must have 4 or 5 wins against Jaedong in a row, almost all of them on maps that are 60% or more in favor of zerg. Its simply incredible
there are people who like Bisu and people who don't. You obviously don't.
Say what you want about him, but Bisu is most likely the best Protoss player in BW will ever have. No one can play PvZ like he can. his PvP is still very good, (aside from Stork giving about more then 50% of his PvP losses). His PvT is still good at the moment, start of the year I don't remember him losing that often.
He has a lot of faults yes, when he slumps, he slumps very bad. But when he is good, he will always be near the top. His ELO is at 2300+, only behind Flash. I still believe he will always be the Protoss Bonjwa we never had.
Bisu is easily the most "superhuman" progamer there is. His ability to multitask and finding small timings is awe-inspiring. I personally can't wait for the future biological advancement that we will be able to gather the Flash's thinking process, Bisu's ability to multitak, Jaedong's physique and Stork's creativity in creating builds with limiting practices.
Wait wait, were not seriously comparing Bisu to Flash right now are we? Bisu is without a doubt a great player. But there is no comparison. Stork is doing better than Bisu.
On February 19 2011 13:23 DyEnasTy wrote: Wait wait, were not seriously comparing Bisu to Flash right now are we? Bisu is without a doubt a great player. But there is no comparison. Stork is doing better than Bisu.
weh if you're gonna talk about 'that' then there will be problems .
Bisu has done absolutely nothing to show he could compete in a starleague. He's great at multitasking and random 1-off games and thus wins a lot of proleague but his ability to play against a prepared opponent is absolutely dismal these days.
Why the heck would you compare FLASH to Bisu? Flash has always been better than anyone I've ever seen play. Flash almost made me think that Terran is IMBA.
You guys are completely retarded. This OP is from August 2010 which was near the tail end of Bisu's slump. He's come back stronger than ever. Had an 11 win streak in PL recently. His individual league play might not be as up to snuff, but that's no reason to say that's he's out. At all.
On February 19 2011 15:25 By.Fantasy wrote: Why the heck would you compare FLASH to Bisu? Flash has always been better than anyone I've ever seen play. Flash almost made me think that Terran is IMBA.
Bisu's play at its peak can rival Flash's. Bisu, however, plays a style that is quite dependent on control and multitasking, so it definitely appears to be more fragile than Flash's style.
On February 19 2011 15:25 By.Fantasy wrote: Why the heck would you compare FLASH to Bisu? Flash has always been better than anyone I've ever seen play. Flash almost made me think that Terran is IMBA.
Bisu's play at its peak can rival Flash's. Bisu, however, plays a style that is quite dependent on control and multitasking, so it definitely appears to be more fragile than Flash's style.
I never got why anyone said this. Bisu playing at his peak never won two starleagues. Bisu's probably the most successful and consistent protoss, but his peak is nowhere near Flash's peak.
On February 19 2011 15:25 By.Fantasy wrote: Why the heck would you compare FLASH to Bisu? Flash has always been better than anyone I've ever seen play. Flash almost made me think that Terran is IMBA.
Did you happen to start watching progaming in 2010?
Bisu might not be a bonjwa, but it should not be forgotten that in 2007 he was on his way to walking the bonjwa road, and then in late 2008/early 2009 he was even stronger, achieving nearly 80% wins over a stretch of almost 100 games.
Hence it's perfectly reasonable to compare them. Flash has had the better career. There is no doubt of that. It is Flash, not Bisu, who epitomizes the modern gamer. But Bisu is a very powerful player who should not be overlooked. At his best, he's a wrecking ball.
Bisu's only recent losses have been a few to top players and to hiya. Every toss losses time to time to hiya so this is forgivable. I think Bisu deserves a lot more credit for his recent power and it is unfair that lately he has been undervalued as a noob stomper. I think he shows a moderate level of invincibility second only to flash at the moment.
On February 19 2011 14:15 tedster wrote: Bisu has done absolutely nothing to show he could compete in a starleague. He's great at multitasking and random 1-off games and thus wins a lot of proleague but his ability to play against a prepared opponent is absolutely dismal these days.
that's what they were saying about Flash before he turned on god-mode. Dun dun dunnn....
On February 19 2011 15:25 By.Fantasy wrote: Why the heck would you compare FLASH to Bisu? Flash has always been better than anyone I've ever seen play. Flash almost made me think that Terran is IMBA.
Bisu's play at its peak can rival Flash's. Bisu, however, plays a style that is quite dependent on control and multitasking, so it definitely appears to be more fragile than Flash's style.
I never got why anyone said this. Bisu playing at his peak never won two starleagues. Bisu's probably the most successful and consistent protoss, but his peak is nowhere near Flash's peak.
Bisu won 2 starleagues back-to-back back in 07 and that wasn't even his peak ;o but I'm pretty sure LunarC was referring to Bisu's "peak play" would rival Flash's "peak play", which I would agree to.
In before: "Bisu never won an OSL" "Bisu never dual-leagued" "Bisu's ELO peak is lower" "Flash is godike" and other things we already know that will no doubt be included in some Flash fanboy's response to that
Anyway in 07-08 though Bisu was the closest thing to a protoss bonjwa. Definitely not now but he's currently got the best PvZ in the scene, good PvP, and enough PvT to win against weaker players at least. I'd say it's possible for Bisu to progress to the top in another SL but it will require lots of luck and avoiding Flash/Fantasy/Stork?/Shine? (lol)
On February 19 2011 17:09 fearus wrote: Bisu playing at his best is better than Flash or JD playing at their best.
There I said it.
The other 2 are just more consistent than Bisu.
bisu fanboy
:} i lol'd
however i disagree with your statement, i think Flash is probably the strongest if they were all playing at their peaks, but that is just the nature of Terran, imo.
On February 19 2011 09:23 l0st_romantic wrote: I am willing to bet my signature that Bisu won't make it into the Ro4 in either the next OSL or MSL, or that his ELO will slip by more than 80 points from his current level by May 18th. His current performance is mainly a function of harass-friendly and P-friendly maps. Once maps return to maps which reward solid defensive players, his performance will suffer.
If not, I offer my signature to be decided upon by a self-identified Bisu fan.
while I agree with you that Bisu will have hard time getting another shot at a starleague, you simply cannot ignore his presence at the moment. When he went on paid vacation and came back , he was able to do something very few ppl ,if any managed to do before him - getting back to his basics. In the last years, Bisu hasnt evolved to a new stage of his play, he regressed to the one thing that defines his career - his PvZ. There are very few anomalies in BroodWar, the domination of most of the great players, excluding savior maybe, is taking the maximum advantage of their momentum, the state of the metagame, the maps. If you look at Bisu's PvZ for the past 12, maybe even 24 months you will see how irrelevant the MU or the map balance was for his performance. If that doesnt make his abilities any justice you can look at his winning streak against the best ZvP player of all time - Jaedong. Up to date, Bisu must have 4 or 5 wins against Jaedong in a row, almost all of them on maps that are 60% or more in favor of zerg. Its simply incredible
I will be the self-identified BisuFan to do so. As I am the BisuDagger, and I go after all non-bisu fans.
On February 19 2011 17:09 fearus wrote: Bisu playing at his best is better than Flash or JD playing at their best.
There I said it.
The other 2 are just more consistent than Bisu.
bisu fanboy
:} i lol'd
however i disagree with your statement, i think Flash is probably the strongest if they were all playing at their peaks, but that is just the nature of Terran, imo.
On February 19 2011 16:32 ArvickHero wrote: Bisu won 2 starleagues back-to-back back in 07 and that wasn't even his peak ;o but I'm pretty sure LunarC was referring to Bisu's "peak play" would rival Flash's "peak play", which I would agree to.
If you want me to rephrase that, 2 starleagues in the same season. Flash won titles in 3 back to back seasons. Bisu's peak play isn't close to Flash's peak play. That's how you distinguish great players from a bonjwa. It's such a biased statement to just assume someone's peak play is just as good as a better player's. Hey guys Nal_rA's peak play was just as good as Savior's because they were really good at the same time despite the fact that Savior beat him a lot and won more leagues.
You can love Bisu all you want and I am totally okay with that, but he's done nothing to prove that he is or ever has been as good as Flash at his best. No one has done that because we JUST crowned him bonjwa a couple months ago.
Bisu is damn good but you don't see him making the sorts of comebacks that flash does. Except that one game on katrina... Watch it if you haven't seen it. Its incredible.
Still while bisu can often slaughter someone with a well prepared build, he lacks the abillity to turn every situation somehow into his advantage
On February 19 2011 21:30 puppykiller wrote: Bisu is damn good but you don't see him making the sorts of comebacks that flash does. Except that one game on katrina... Watch it if you haven't seen it. Its incredible.
Still while bisu can often slaughter someone with a well prepared build, he lacks the abillity to turn every situation somehow into his advantage
To be fair, i don't see ANY protoss do that... It's just easier to do a comeback with turtle terran than it is with protoss.
On February 19 2011 21:30 puppykiller wrote: Bisu is damn good but you don't see him making the sorts of comebacks that flash does. Except that one game on katrina... Watch it if you haven't seen it. Its incredible.
Still while bisu can often slaughter someone with a well prepared build, he lacks the abillity to turn every situation somehow into his advantage
Bisu vs Calm @ Fighting Spirit was a pretty nice comback
On February 19 2011 21:30 puppykiller wrote: Bisu is damn good but you don't see him making the sorts of comebacks that flash does. Except that one game on katrina... Watch it if you haven't seen it. Its incredible.
Still while bisu can often slaughter someone with a well prepared build, he lacks the abillity to turn every situation somehow into his advantage
To be fair, terran does give you a better chance at making a comeback. Not that it's easy by any means, but it's harder to 1a2a3a into a turtling terran who attempts a comeback than a protoss who does the same. The two aren't really so comparable because what Flash does may be just impossible for P/Z to do because they aren't terran. There's been 3-4 terran bonjwas, all with comparable achievements, 1.5 zerg bonjwas(-1 for match fixing if you want to do that), and no protoss bonjwas. Yet Bisu is still ahead of every other protoss by a significant margin. Nal_rA may have only 1 less title, but he never had a streak of being the best player. By all means he is the player most capable of being god-tier in the least consistent race. And what is this about Bisu and prepared builds? He doesn't go facepalm mode in PL like Fantasy, he wins just about all the time. His strength is mechanics. And I also disagree about his inability to make comebacks. Watch Bisu vs Great, Calm, and Jaedong for comebacks.
On February 19 2011 16:32 ArvickHero wrote: Bisu won 2 starleagues back-to-back back in 07 and that wasn't even his peak ;o but I'm pretty sure LunarC was referring to Bisu's "peak play" would rival Flash's "peak play", which I would agree to.
You can love Bisu all you want and I am totally okay with that, but he's done nothing to prove that he is or ever has been as good as Flash at his best. No one has done that because we JUST crowned him bonjwa a couple months ago.
You can be jealous of Bisu all you want and I am totally okay with that but you need to make your own Flash appreciation thread or Bisu hate thread and go dwell in there.
What Flash has done with Terran is nothing new. No one is as impressed with a dominant Terran anymore, especially playing in such a mechanical and lackluster style. Nada and Oov has already shown us many years back.
On February 19 2011 21:30 puppykiller wrote: Bisu is damn good but you don't see him making the sorts of comebacks that flash does. Except that one game on katrina... Watch it if you haven't seen it. Its incredible.
Still while bisu can often slaughter someone with a well prepared build, he lacks the abillity to turn every situation somehow into his advantage
To be fair, terran does give you a better chance at making a comeback. Not that it's easy by any means, but it's harder to 1a2a3a into a turtling terran who attempts a comeback than a protoss who does the same. The two aren't really so comparable because what Flash does may be just impossible for P/Z to do because they aren't terran. There's been 3-4 terran bonjwas, all with comparable achievements, 1.5 zerg bonjwas(-1 for match fixing if you want to do that), and no protoss bonjwas. Yet Bisu is still ahead of every other protoss by a significant margin. Nal_rA may have only 1 less title, but he never had a streak of being the best player. By all means he is the player most capable of being god-tier in the least consistent race. And what is this about Bisu and prepared builds? He doesn't go facepalm mode in PL like Fantasy, he wins just about all the time. His strength is mechanics. And I also disagree about his inability to make comebacks. Watch Bisu vs Great, Calm, and Jaedong for comebacks.
No protoss at the top level wins pvt due to mechanics. And even if that is bisu's worst matchup he has won a lot of pvt's recently so i'm certain that his recent proleuge sucsess does not reside in the speed of his hands. He wins becuase he prepares well.. maybe not like fantasy (gimmicky yet amazing one time use builds) but instead just with generally very strong builds for each of the maps.
You raise a good point about the difficulty for comebacks in pvt. I (possibly incorectly) think this is a more recent trend actually as terran have gotten better at preventing scrappy arbiter play to take them down. Bisu definetly makes good comebacks in pvz due to mechanics and abillity to improvise well with what he has. But flash's comebacks are never based on mechanics and are rarely due to constant harsass and are instead usually based on perfect disiscion making (stork opperates in a similar way). This gives flash the oppertunity to potentially return from a disidvantage in every matchup while bisu is more likely to only have comeback succsess in a pvz and maybe a pvp.
I don't deny how powerful bisu currently is and I was not around during the era where he was most dominant. But just becuase Korean toss have had less time being the strongest race does not mean that the most famouse protoss celebrity trumps all other players. Diffrent secrets of each race are discovered as time progresses and players exploit them until counters are found. So what if bisu spearheaded one of these instances of one race's dominance? Just becuase one toss stumbled upon something brilliant doesn't make him any diffrent then any of the bonjwas that have revolutionized how their race plays the game. Maybe protoss has had less inovaters then the other races but that says nothing of anyones skill.
i dont think flash is a better player its just the race wich is better tanks are imba besides that flash showed no special dominance he came on the top where all t player were pretty high while bisu came on the top where he was a newcomer and all said p is underpowered wich is prob true he had a new style and awesome mechanics and owned savior and what did flash? he plays what all t players do and after the maps came wich favored t he was on the top and now after the new maps are out he isnt able to come out of his groups so saying flash is the best player is a bad joke this season the myps dont favor a race otherwise all p player would be high rated but they arent bisu and stork are on the top cause they are high skilled and this with weakest race
On February 19 2011 15:58 LunarC wrote: You guys are completely retarded. This OP is from August 2010 which was near the tail end of Bisu's slump. He's come back stronger than ever. Had an 11 win streak in PL recently. His individual league play might not be as up to snuff, but that's no reason to say that's he's out. At all.
On February 19 2011 15:25 By.Fantasy wrote: Why the heck would you compare FLASH to Bisu? Flash has always been better than anyone I've ever seen play. Flash almost made me think that Terran is IMBA.
Bisu's play at its peak can rival Flash's. Bisu, however, plays a style that is quite dependent on control and multitasking, so it definitely appears to be more fragile than Flash's style.
This isn't correct. Throughout 2010 flash played many diffrent styles of tvz, tvp and tvt, and one of his most notorius was the tvz he was using around the time of the power outrage msl. The one where he kept a control group of rines running around the map denying the zergs third. This style is absurdly dangerous and completely dependent on perfect mechanics.
On February 20 2011 03:17 WeRRa wrote: i dont think flash is a better player its just the race wich is better tanks are imba besides that flash showed no special dominance he came on the top where all t player were pretty high while bisu came on the top where he was a newcomer and all said p is underpowered wich is prob true he had a new style and awesome mechanics and owned savior and what did flash? he plays what all t players do and after the maps came wich favored t he was on the top and now after the new maps are out he isnt able to come out of his groups so saying flash is the best player is a bad joke this season the myps dont favor a race otherwise all p player would be high rated but they arent bisu and stork are on the top cause they are high skilled and this with weakest race
On February 20 2011 03:24 Holgerius wrote: My head hurts after taking a peek into this thread. Oh lord, gotta stay out...
This thread is the place where you can see the power of Bisu fans lol. We are capable of making a 8-line post that consists of only 2 sentences and no punctuation (Werra post for example). Go go Bisu fans, we are so awesome !!!
All of you saying Bisu is going to drop 80 ELO points by May, you just wait. Bisu is going to return to what he was during the Golden Age of Protoss and go on a rampage and rape everyone. GO BISU!
In order to have a true protoss heroe, there need to be a player that is patient enough to learn ALL of the protoss's style. From the cheesy plays of proxy gates and DT sneaks into 10 gateways of 1a2a3a4a. From the crazy multitask of shuttle plays to the ability to make a carrier switch at perfect timing. From the psionic storm of thor to the unstoppable macro ability.
I'm a Flash fan and I see a lot of anime, and that's why I love the great moment of Bisu right now. It's like that rival who was defeated once and then forgotten, who has returned stronger and scarier to prove his worth and challenge the main character again. And I also like to see Flash, Bisu and Jaedong at the top 3. The three best warriors representing their races, leading the way of those who are behind them.
seriously I want to know why the OP hates bisu so much
so what if he's got way more fanboys at 17th than most do in top 10
also, you act like that is the only way to measure a players talent in starcraft, let alone go so far as to act like it's the only valid way of measuring how popular a progamer should be
and what's up with the thread title? you jealous of him or something because he actually is hot?
On February 20 2011 05:02 agarangu wrote: I'm a Flash fan and I see a lot of anime, and that's why I love the great moment of Bisu right now. It's like that rival who was defeated once and then forgotten, who has returned stronger and scarier to prove his worth and challenge the main character again. And I also like to see Flash, Bisu and Jaedong at the top 3. The three best warriors representing their races, leading the way of those who are behind them.
And yes, I still think Jaedong is the best Zerg who is having a bad time, and that's all.
Bisu is Vegeta? That's over 9000! I would like to see an anime btw these three. I'm wondering who JD is as an anime character too. Put some thought into this and you could make an epic new thread.
On February 20 2011 05:02 agarangu wrote: I'm a Flash fan and I see a lot of anime, and that's why I love the great moment of Bisu right now. It's like that rival who was defeated once and then forgotten, who has returned stronger and scarier to prove his worth and challenge the main character again. And I also like to see Flash, Bisu and Jaedong at the top 3. The three best warriors representing their races, leading the way of those who are behind them.
On February 20 2011 05:02 agarangu wrote: I'm a Flash fan and I see a lot of anime, and that's why I love the great moment of Bisu right now. It's like that rival who was defeated once and then forgotten, who has returned stronger and scarier to prove his worth and challenge the main character again. And I also like to see Flash, Bisu and Jaedong at the top 3. The three best warriors representing their races, leading the way of those who are behind them.
And yes, I still think Jaedong is the best Zerg who is having a bad time, and that's all.
Bisu is Vegeta? That's over 9000! I would like to see an anime btw these three. I'm wondering who JD is as an anime character too. Put some thought into this and you could make an epic new thread.
On February 19 2011 16:32 ArvickHero wrote: Bisu won 2 starleagues back-to-back back in 07 and that wasn't even his peak ;o but I'm pretty sure LunarC was referring to Bisu's "peak play" would rival Flash's "peak play", which I would agree to.
If you want me to rephrase that, 2 starleagues in the same season. Flash won titles in 3 back to back seasons. Bisu's peak play isn't close to Flash's peak play. That's how you distinguish great players from a bonjwa. It's such a biased statement to just assume someone's peak play is just as good as a better player's. Hey guys Nal_rA's peak play was just as good as Savior's because they were really good at the same time despite the fact that Savior beat him a lot and won more leagues.
You can love Bisu all you want and I am totally okay with that, but he's done nothing to prove that he is or ever has been as good as Flash at his best. No one has done that because we JUST crowned him bonjwa a couple months ago.
Bisu consistently slaughtered Flash and many other Terrans during his "peak" period, whereas Nal_rA never beat Savior for more than 2 games in a row. Bisu has shown his moments of pure brilliance even during his slumps, and during his peak/good form he was able to reverse build order losses and imba maps/disadvantageous situations through his sheer force, much like God Young Ho. Bisu may have been nowhere near as consistent as Jaedong and Flash, but you cannot deny Bisu's "peak play" rivaling that of a bonjwa.
The bottom of the list doesn't surprise me at all. They're all obviously peaking. But Bisu is closer to his peak than Flash now.
In general, I think this method doesn't represent a player being "past his prime" so much as players who are slumping vs. streaking (and I don't mean that in the sense of inconsistency).
On February 20 2011 05:02 agarangu wrote: I'm a Flash fan and I see a lot of anime, and that's why I love the great moment of Bisu right now. It's like that rival who was defeated once and then forgotten, who has returned stronger and scarier to prove his worth and challenge the main character again. And I also like to see Flash, Bisu and Jaedong at the top 3. The three best warriors representing their races, leading the way of those who are behind them.
And yes, I still think Jaedong is the best Zerg who is having a bad time, and that's all.
I would say that it's more like Bisu = Goku because he is a super saiyan(Flash can't be Goku, he's evil). Stork = Vegeta because he is also a super saiyan and rivals Bisu, and because he's less skilled even though he has been around for longer. Jaedong = Buu, he has regenerative abilities and is usually angry in battle. Flash = Evil Buu, because he's strong and evil(read: boring) and the counterpart to JD/Buu.
On February 20 2011 05:02 agarangu wrote: I'm a Flash fan and I see a lot of anime, and that's why I love the great moment of Bisu right now. It's like that rival who was defeated once and then forgotten, who has returned stronger and scarier to prove his worth and challenge the main character again. And I also like to see Flash, Bisu and Jaedong at the top 3. The three best warriors representing their races, leading the way of those who are behind them.
And yes, I still think Jaedong is the best Zerg who is having a bad time, and that's all.
I would say that it's more like Bisu = Goku because he is a super saiyan(Flash can't be Goku, he's evil). Stork = Vegeta because he is also a super saiyan and rivals Bisu, and because he's less skilled even though he has been around for longer. Jaedong = Buu, he has regenerative abilities and is usually angry in battle. Flash = Evil Buu, because he's strong and evil(read: boring) and the counterpart to JD/Buu.
I would say Flash is more like Cell, because he seems to like the intellectual approach more than brute force. Jaedong should be Frieza.
The bottom of the list doesn't surprise me at all. They're all obviously peaking. But Bisu is closer to his peak than Flash now.
In general, I think this method doesn't represent a player being "past his prime" so much as players who are slumping vs. streaking (and I don't mean that in the sense of inconsistency).
to be fair, Flash's peak is so freaking ridiculous that even if he is 100 points away from it he's still S-class :/
On February 20 2011 04:47 renzy wrote: All of you saying Bisu is going to drop 80 ELO points by May, you just wait. Bisu is going to return to what he was during the Golden Age of Protoss and go on a rampage and rape everyone. GO BISU!
Won't happen. I think the next season of maps will be a lot more balanced, and reward late-game oriented, defensive play. This would be better for the development of BW strategy.
On February 20 2011 04:47 renzy wrote: All of you saying Bisu is going to drop 80 ELO points by May, you just wait. Bisu is going to return to what he was during the Golden Age of Protoss and go on a rampage and rape everyone. GO BISU!
Won't happen. I think the next season of maps will be a lot more balanced, and reward late-game oriented, defensive play. This would be better for the development of BW strategy.
In what way? I don't think that this is true at all.
Balance is of course an obvious goal, but balance is not the same thing as rewarding late-game defensive play.
Late game defensive play is optimal for strategic innovation says who?
The type of maps that are ideal for strategic innovation are maps that maximize the number of viable strategies. On such a map, "spear" or "shield" won't necessarily -- or even likely -- be favored.
Are you sure that you aren't just hoping for the types of maps that you believe best suit Flash? And, that's not even entirely true, really. Nor is it true that Bisu is "only" good on maps where aggressive play is favored.
Several key points here: 1.) Flash and Bisu are often both very strong on the same maps. 2.) Success is not limited to large, defensive maps. 3.) Whether or not Flash or Bisu does well on a particular map has more to do with: a.) balance issues and b.) how readily they can adapt their style to it. For example, a key issue for Bisu in PvZ is that his style works better when the Zerg has to travel further to achieve his 3rd base because Bisu is good at harassment and spreading the Zerg out. For Flash the key is his unusually early 3rd base timing, so maps where a 3rd base essentially comes for free (Judgment Day) or where 3rd base is more difficult to secure are disadvantageous. 4.) And yet? Medusa is considered Bisu's best map and Flash was a real monster on Katrina. Why? Because neither of these players are so one-dimensional as to need a map to fit certain qualifications.
Flash didn't have a "bad season" because the maps are bad for him. Proleague is proof of this. Flash is a monster on basically every map. Flash had a "bad season" because he did not play like a bonjwa in his Starleague games last December. That is all.
On February 20 2011 04:47 renzy wrote: All of you saying Bisu is going to drop 80 ELO points by May, you just wait. Bisu is going to return to what he was during the Golden Age of Protoss and go on a rampage and rape everyone. GO BISU!
Won't happen. I think the next season of maps will be a lot more balanced, and reward late-game oriented, defensive play. This would be better for the development of BW strategy.
Just wanted to say you're kind of spewing Bisu hate. While it's certainly possible that with the new maps Bisu will go down drastically in ELO I can calmly say that I don't think it's all that likely. "Imba maps" don't suddenly allow a player to catch fire and play like a freaking god. Bisu passed Jaedong in ELO. Granted, JD was slumping but still that's pretty huge. He's practically carrying SKT on his back in Winner's League picking up multiple kills in every game, sitting at the top of the list of most all-kills in SWL.
Do you honestly think this is all because of "imba" maps? Bisu has been looking strong in most of his games and honestly I think he could take Flash in a bo5 right now. Sure, I'd still favor Flash but I think Bisu could definitely eek out a win over him.
I hope that, after the new maps are released, if Bisu continues to play at such a high level you'll keep your word and rework your OP.
On February 20 2011 04:47 renzy wrote: All of you saying Bisu is going to drop 80 ELO points by May, you just wait. Bisu is going to return to what he was during the Golden Age of Protoss and go on a rampage and rape everyone. GO BISU!
Won't happen. I think the next season of maps will be a lot more balanced, and reward late-game oriented, defensive play. This would be better for the development of BW strategy.
Just wanted to say you're kind of spewing Bisu hate. While it's certainly possible that with the new maps Bisu will go down drastically in ELO I can calmly say that I don't think it's all that likely. "Imba maps" don't suddenly allow a player to catch fire and play like a freaking god. Bisu passed Jaedong in ELO. Granted, JD was slumping but still that's pretty huge. He's practically carrying SKT on his back in Winner's League picking up multiple kills in every game, sitting at the top of the list of most all-kills in SWL.
Do you honestly think this is all because of "imba" maps? Bisu has been looking strong in most of his games and honestly I think he could take Flash in a bo5 right now. Sure, I'd still favor Flash but I think Bisu could definitely eek out a win over him.
I hope that, after the new maps are released, if Bisu continues to play at such a high level you'll keep your word and rework your OP.
All I'm doing here is borrowing all the logic of those who dared to say that Flash's dominance last year was due to imba maps. And I'm applying it forward, and to Bisu. It's true, maps were a factor.
However, maps I would say do not favor a race, they favor a playstyle. Right now the maps do not differ much strategically from last season's maps. Rush distances are similar, attack pathway numbers are similar, and overall it favors not careful students of maps and timings but rather harass-happy and chaos-heavy players.
That is bad for the development of Brood War. Better maps would be maps that have completely different timings and introduce novel concepts, like Monty Hall or Dreamliner. Fortress is another good example. Tears of the Moon (forces P to adopt 1 base strategies) is also good. Bisu would not do well on a map like ToTM, for example, because he is the last protoss I would expect to actually come up with a decent way to deal with the map.
Remember what Kingdom had to say about Bisu?
In the SKT house, it is Best who actually comes up with most of the strategies. Bisu is just better at executing them.
Flash, on the other hand, is second to none when it comes to dominating via building a system of build orders and decision trees for sets of maps. It is this systematic approach to the game that BW mapmakers ought to be encouraging, not the haphazard, chaotic, and nonsensical approach to the game that Bisu embodies.
And I predict next season we will see maps that reflect that trend. Bisu will encounter players who have studied his style well, and will come prepared with builds that lead him to an inevitable, bloody death, much as any skilled, prepared hunter can easily lead dumb instinct into self-destruction.
On February 20 2011 04:47 renzy wrote: All of you saying Bisu is going to drop 80 ELO points by May, you just wait. Bisu is going to return to what he was during the Golden Age of Protoss and go on a rampage and rape everyone. GO BISU!
Won't happen. I think the next season of maps will be a lot more balanced, and reward late-game oriented, defensive play. This would be better for the development of BW strategy.
Just wanted to say you're kind of spewing Bisu hate. While it's certainly possible that with the new maps Bisu will go down drastically in ELO I can calmly say that I don't think it's all that likely. "Imba maps" don't suddenly allow a player to catch fire and play like a freaking god. Bisu passed Jaedong in ELO. Granted, JD was slumping but still that's pretty huge. He's practically carrying SKT on his back in Winner's League picking up multiple kills in every game, sitting at the top of the list of most all-kills in SWL.
Do you honestly think this is all because of "imba" maps? Bisu has been looking strong in most of his games and honestly I think he could take Flash in a bo5 right now. Sure, I'd still favor Flash but I think Bisu could definitely eek out a win over him.
I hope that, after the new maps are released, if Bisu continues to play at such a high level you'll keep your word and rework your OP.
Tears of the Moon (forces P to adopt 1 base strategies) is also good.
On February 20 2011 15:53 l0st_romantic wrote: That is bad for the development of Brood War. Better maps would be maps that have completely different timings and introduce novel concepts, like Monty Hall or Dreamliner. Fortress is another good example. Tears of the Moon (forces P to adopt 1 base strategies) is also good. Bisu would not do well on a map like ToTM, for example, because he is the last protoss I would expect to actually come up with a decent way to deal with the map.
This is where you demonstrate that you don't even know what you're talking about. The map was designed so that Protoss would have no viable way of playing the map, 1 or 2 base. The nat design makes Forge FE unfeasible, and the low mineral patch count in the main (which was 7) made PvZ 1 Base play total shit. There's just no way for Protoss to beat a competent Zerg on that map.
Plus, Bisu said that he had a specially prepared build on that map anyways. Assuming that it wasn't mindgames, it would've meant that Bisu found a way to deal with it (if he hadn't lost to Fantasy we would've saw...)
You say that good maps should introduce novel concepts, and make players adapt to the map? Well guess what, Bisu does fairly well with that. Destination and Medusa were Bisu's playground, yet both introduced "novel concepts". Andromeda, a fairly defensive map w/ an in-base third, Bisu has good stats on. Arkanoid, one of the most "novel maps" you can get, Bisu is 4-1 on. Triathlon, another novel map, Bisu is currently 3-2 on which is pretty good. Monty Hall, a map you mentioned. has Bisu going 8-5 on. Hey Colosseum is a pretty novel map too, Bisu is 7-3 on that. Blitz X, another novel map! Bisu going 6-3 on that. Dreamliner, another map you mentioned, Bisu went 2-1 on. Bisu also 3-0 on Fortress. Hmmmm so many novel maps, but why is Bisu doing so well on all of these if he's so bad??
Because he's not, he's the real thing and one of the best, if not THE best Protoss of BW. Last season he had a bad slump because of a decision making crisis, and now he's back looking damn strong right now.
Jeez, looking at your reasoning, I assume you think Jaedong sucks too? After all, if Bisu's play is haphazard and chaotic (others would just call it aggressive or entertaining), then Jaedong's play must just blow your mind in terms of how "haphazard and chaotic" it is.
On February 20 2011 04:47 renzy wrote: All of you saying Bisu is going to drop 80 ELO points by May, you just wait. Bisu is going to return to what he was during the Golden Age of Protoss and go on a rampage and rape everyone. GO BISU!
Won't happen. I think the next season of maps will be a lot more balanced, and reward late-game oriented, defensive play. This would be better for the development of BW strategy.
Just wanted to say you're kind of spewing Bisu hate. While it's certainly possible that with the new maps Bisu will go down drastically in ELO I can calmly say that I don't think it's all that likely. "Imba maps" don't suddenly allow a player to catch fire and play like a freaking god. Bisu passed Jaedong in ELO. Granted, JD was slumping but still that's pretty huge. He's practically carrying SKT on his back in Winner's League picking up multiple kills in every game, sitting at the top of the list of most all-kills in SWL.
Do you honestly think this is all because of "imba" maps? Bisu has been looking strong in most of his games and honestly I think he could take Flash in a bo5 right now. Sure, I'd still favor Flash but I think Bisu could definitely eek out a win over him.
I hope that, after the new maps are released, if Bisu continues to play at such a high level you'll keep your word and rework your OP.
Tears of the Moon (forces P to adopt 1 base strategies) is also good.
You love to discredit Bisu talking about how he is only good on certain maps. Yet pre-slump, he was by far the best player on the most balanced map by stats, and he is more capable of overcoming imba than you give him credit for. Which maps would you even say are protoss favored? Aztec, the map that Bisu stomps on zergs on with 50/50 odds on the map(partially due to the presence of 2 top protoss and 1 declining top zerg)? Circuit breaker? Icarus, with no good P odds? Benzene, whose ZvP only slightly favors P(in large part due to the fact that JD doesn't play on the map while Bisu does)? Bloody Ridge, where protoss gets 2 atrocious MUs? La Mancha, which is exactly the same? Honestly, EotS and Aztec are the only 2 good P maps among a sea of non-P maps. I think you just want maps that give terrans/Flash a massive boost and make things insanely difficult for protoss/Bisu.
On February 20 2011 15:53 l0st_romantic wrote: That is bad for the development of Brood War. Better maps would be maps that have completely different timings and introduce novel concepts, like Monty Hall or Dreamliner. Fortress is another good example. Tears of the Moon (forces P to adopt 1 base strategies) is also good. Bisu would not do well on a map like ToTM, for example, because he is the last protoss I would expect to actually come up with a decent way to deal with the map.
This is where you demonstrate that you don't even know what you're talking about. The map was designed so that Protoss would have no viable way of playing the map, 1 or 2 base. The nat design makes Forge FE unfeasible, and the low mineral patch count in the main (which was 7) made PvZ 1 Base play total shit. There's just no way for Protoss to beat a competent Zerg on that map.
Plus, Bisu said that he had a specially prepared build on that map anyways. Assuming that it wasn't mindgames, it would've meant that Bisu found a way to deal with it (if he hadn't lost to Fantasy we would've saw...)
You say that good maps should introduce novel concepts, and make players adapt to the map? Well guess what, Bisu does fairly well with that. Destination and Medusa were Bisu's playground, yet both introduced "novel concepts". Andromeda, a fairly defensive map w/ an in-base third, Bisu has good stats on. Arkanoid, one of the most "novel maps" you can get, Bisu is 4-1 on. Triathlon, another novel map, Bisu is currently 3-2 on which is pretty good. Monty Hall, a map you mentioned. has Bisu going 8-5 on. Hey Colosseum is a pretty novel map too, Bisu is 7-3 on that. Blitz X, another novel map! Bisu going 6-3 on that. Dreamliner, another map you mentioned, Bisu went 2-1 on. Bisu also 3-0 on Fortress. Hmmmm so many novel maps, but why is Bisu doing so well on all of these if he's so bad??
Because he's not, he's the real thing and one of the best, if not THE best Protoss of BW. Last season he had a bad slump because of a decision making crisis, and now he's back looking damn strong right now.
Jeez, looking at your reasoning, I assume you think Jaedong sucks too? After all, if Bisu's play is haphazard and chaotic (others would just call it aggressive or entertaining), then Jaedong's play must just blow your mind in terms of how "haphazard and chaotic" it is.
Arvick, other than Arkanoid, Monty Hall, Fortress, and Dreamliner, none of the other maps mentioned introduced those concepts. They didn't force the progaming community to change their build trees and metagaming to win. And Bisu's records on Monty Hall and Dreamliner are nothing to be proud of. The central issue is that Bisu doesn't invent timings for new map concepts. He doesn't have the sheer system-building ability that Flash does, or Oov or Savior did to compete.
Backing up for a second, instead of dividing players in terms of Zerg, or Terran, or Protoss, think of them in terms of what lets them win. Flash, Savior, and Oov win because they build entire metagame and build order trees that can flex very, very well, and also psychologically pin the opponent into bad spots for the next set of games by getting into their practice cycles. Just look at how Flash did it to Stork in Bacchus 08--he played an anti-carrier build on Katrina which Stork practiced against which Flash countered with a BBS.
Bisu, Jaedong, and I would throw Nada in here as well, win by mechanics and execution. They don't win by making smart mid-late-game decisions. They win by executing strategies with precision or executing them at a higher rhythm than their opponents.
This does not mean one style of player is superior to the other. This, however, does mean that the first type of player advances the metagame a lot more than the second type of player. Dominance by haphazard players does not lead to gameplay revolutions.
Case in point: look at Jaedong's dominance for Zerg versus Savior's dominance for Zerg. One period led a whole lot more strategic innovation than the other period for Zerg. Why? Because Savior won using Zerg in a new way, whereas Jaedong wins by using Zerg in an old way, better.
Nal_Ra and Daezang are examples of P's that win through new styles. Bisu simply takes other people's styles and does them better. There's no shame in that, it doesn't mean he sucks--it simply mean's he wins through instinct rather than brains. Does this make sense?
On February 20 2011 04:47 renzy wrote: All of you saying Bisu is going to drop 80 ELO points by May, you just wait. Bisu is going to return to what he was during the Golden Age of Protoss and go on a rampage and rape everyone. GO BISU!
Won't happen. I think the next season of maps will be a lot more balanced, and reward late-game oriented, defensive play. This would be better for the development of BW strategy.
Just wanted to say you're kind of spewing Bisu hate. While it's certainly possible that with the new maps Bisu will go down drastically in ELO I can calmly say that I don't think it's all that likely. "Imba maps" don't suddenly allow a player to catch fire and play like a freaking god. Bisu passed Jaedong in ELO. Granted, JD was slumping but still that's pretty huge. He's practically carrying SKT on his back in Winner's League picking up multiple kills in every game, sitting at the top of the list of most all-kills in SWL.
Do you honestly think this is all because of "imba" maps? Bisu has been looking strong in most of his games and honestly I think he could take Flash in a bo5 right now. Sure, I'd still favor Flash but I think Bisu could definitely eek out a win over him.
I hope that, after the new maps are released, if Bisu continues to play at such a high level you'll keep your word and rework your OP.
Tears of the Moon (forces P to adopt 1 base strategies) is also good.
You love to discredit Bisu talking about how he is only good on certain maps. Yet pre-slump, he was by far the best player on the most balanced map by stats, and he is more capable of overcoming imba than you give him credit for. Which maps would you even say are protoss favored? Aztec, the map that Bisu stomps on zergs on with 50/50 odds on the map(partially due to the presence of 2 top protoss and 1 declining top zerg)? Circuit breaker? Icarus, with no good P odds? Benzene, whose ZvP only slightly favors P(in large part due to the fact that JD doesn't play on the map while Bisu does)? Bloody Ridge, where protoss gets 2 atrocious MUs? La Mancha, which is exactly the same? Honestly, EotS and Aztec are the only 2 good P maps among a sea of non-P maps. I think you just want maps that give terrans/Flash a massive boost and make things insanely difficult for protoss/Bisu.
Lightwip, it's not about Protoss vs. Terran vs. Zerg. That's an artificial distinction. I would argue the biggest distinction between players is how they spend their time practicing. Do they spend it coming up with new strategies and theorizing on a proactive basis, or simply mass-gaming and taking other people's BOs? I'm sure it's a mix of both, but you and I can both agree that amongst progamers, there is definitely a distinction amongst this continuum. Stork vs. Bisu is a classic example; a better one would be Flash vs. Fantasy or Savior vs. Jaedong.
It's not about finding maps which are better for one race. It's about finding maps which suit a style of player. Does that make sense?
On February 19 2011 16:32 ArvickHero wrote: Bisu won 2 starleagues back-to-back back in 07 and that wasn't even his peak ;o but I'm pretty sure LunarC was referring to Bisu's "peak play" would rival Flash's "peak play", which I would agree to.
If you want me to rephrase that, 2 starleagues in the same season. Flash won titles in 3 back to back seasons. Bisu's peak play isn't close to Flash's peak play. That's how you distinguish great players from a bonjwa. It's such a biased statement to just assume someone's peak play is just as good as a better player's. Hey guys Nal_rA's peak play was just as good as Savior's because they were really good at the same time despite the fact that Savior beat him a lot and won more leagues.
You can love Bisu all you want and I am totally okay with that, but he's done nothing to prove that he is or ever has been as good as Flash at his best. No one has done that because we JUST crowned him bonjwa a couple months ago.
Bisu consistently slaughtered Flash and many other Terrans during his "peak" period, whereas Nal_rA never beat Savior for more than 2 games in a row. Bisu has shown his moments of pure brilliance even during his slumps, and during his peak/good form he was able to reverse build order losses and imba maps/disadvantageous situations through his sheer force, much like God Young Ho. Bisu may have been nowhere near as consistent as Jaedong and Flash, but you cannot deny Bisu's "peak play" rivaling that of a bonjwa.
Um, Bisu never "slaughtered" Flash. He beat him in very very close series, or lost to him sometimes, when Bisu was at his best. For a couple years Bisu was the slight favorite, and this was Flash when he was nowhere near his peak. If you want to compare 2007-2008 Bisu to 2010 Flash I think you're absolutely insane to say he was just as good.
I mean, from the start of Flash's career until the 2009 WCG -- which is the last time Bisu beat flash, and is absolutely the most favorable I can make this for Bisu -- Flash was ahead of Bisu 10-8. First series they ever played, when Bisu was at his absolute best and expected to beat Flash, flash beat him in 2 OSLs, whereas Bisu only beat him in one MSL. At his very peak, Flash was very close to him. Bisu never "slaughtered" Flash when he was winning titles. He beat Flash when Flash was playing poorly, and that's a far sight from comparing their peaks. Flash at his peak is so far beyond how good he was when he was neck and neck with Bisu, I don't know how you can say Bisu's peak is just as good.
On February 20 2011 15:53 l0st_romantic wrote: That is bad for the development of Brood War. Better maps would be maps that have completely different timings and introduce novel concepts, like Monty Hall or Dreamliner. Fortress is another good example. Tears of the Moon (forces P to adopt 1 base strategies) is also good. Bisu would not do well on a map like ToTM, for example, because he is the last protoss I would expect to actually come up with a decent way to deal with the map.
This is where you demonstrate that you don't even know what you're talking about. The map was designed so that Protoss would have no viable way of playing the map, 1 or 2 base. The nat design makes Forge FE unfeasible, and the low mineral patch count in the main (which was 7) made PvZ 1 Base play total shit. There's just no way for Protoss to beat a competent Zerg on that map.
Plus, Bisu said that he had a specially prepared build on that map anyways. Assuming that it wasn't mindgames, it would've meant that Bisu found a way to deal with it (if he hadn't lost to Fantasy we would've saw...)
You say that good maps should introduce novel concepts, and make players adapt to the map? Well guess what, Bisu does fairly well with that. Destination and Medusa were Bisu's playground, yet both introduced "novel concepts". Andromeda, a fairly defensive map w/ an in-base third, Bisu has good stats on. Arkanoid, one of the most "novel maps" you can get, Bisu is 4-1 on. Triathlon, another novel map, Bisu is currently 3-2 on which is pretty good. Monty Hall, a map you mentioned. has Bisu going 8-5 on. Hey Colosseum is a pretty novel map too, Bisu is 7-3 on that. Blitz X, another novel map! Bisu going 6-3 on that. Dreamliner, another map you mentioned, Bisu went 2-1 on. Bisu also 3-0 on Fortress. Hmmmm so many novel maps, but why is Bisu doing so well on all of these if he's so bad??
Because he's not, he's the real thing and one of the best, if not THE best Protoss of BW. Last season he had a bad slump because of a decision making crisis, and now he's back looking damn strong right now.
Jeez, looking at your reasoning, I assume you think Jaedong sucks too? After all, if Bisu's play is haphazard and chaotic (others would just call it aggressive or entertaining), then Jaedong's play must just blow your mind in terms of how "haphazard and chaotic" it is.
ALSO: People were saying what you said about ToTM about Arcadia for TvZ a long while back as well. Super hard for T to hold nat against what was then good (July-level) muta harass, easy third for Z, etc. etc. (record started out 10-0 Z:T)
But now, at any level above C+/B-, I'd reckon that Arcadia is perfectly balanced TvZ. Why? Because T's like Midas and Light eventually figured that shit out.
Map makers didn't make Arcadia to kill TvZ then, and didn't make ToTM to kill PvZ either. It simply weeds out players which know how to come up with good strategies and flexible builds versus players who are rote and mechanical. That's it.
On February 20 2011 15:53 l0st_romantic wrote: That is bad for the development of Brood War. Better maps would be maps that have completely different timings and introduce novel concepts, like Monty Hall or Dreamliner. Fortress is another good example. Tears of the Moon (forces P to adopt 1 base strategies) is also good. Bisu would not do well on a map like ToTM, for example, because he is the last protoss I would expect to actually come up with a decent way to deal with the map.
This is where you demonstrate that you don't even know what you're talking about. The map was designed so that Protoss would have no viable way of playing the map, 1 or 2 base. The nat design makes Forge FE unfeasible, and the low mineral patch count in the main (which was 7) made PvZ 1 Base play total shit. There's just no way for Protoss to beat a competent Zerg on that map.
Plus, Bisu said that he had a specially prepared build on that map anyways. Assuming that it wasn't mindgames, it would've meant that Bisu found a way to deal with it (if he hadn't lost to Fantasy we would've saw...)
You say that good maps should introduce novel concepts, and make players adapt to the map? Well guess what, Bisu does fairly well with that. Destination and Medusa were Bisu's playground, yet both introduced "novel concepts". Andromeda, a fairly defensive map w/ an in-base third, Bisu has good stats on. Arkanoid, one of the most "novel maps" you can get, Bisu is 4-1 on. Triathlon, another novel map, Bisu is currently 3-2 on which is pretty good. Monty Hall, a map you mentioned. has Bisu going 8-5 on. Hey Colosseum is a pretty novel map too, Bisu is 7-3 on that. Blitz X, another novel map! Bisu going 6-3 on that. Dreamliner, another map you mentioned, Bisu went 2-1 on. Bisu also 3-0 on Fortress. Hmmmm so many novel maps, but why is Bisu doing so well on all of these if he's so bad??
Because he's not, he's the real thing and one of the best, if not THE best Protoss of BW. Last season he had a bad slump because of a decision making crisis, and now he's back looking damn strong right now.
Jeez, looking at your reasoning, I assume you think Jaedong sucks too? After all, if Bisu's play is haphazard and chaotic (others would just call it aggressive or entertaining), then Jaedong's play must just blow your mind in terms of how "haphazard and chaotic" it is.
ALSO: People were saying what you said about ToTM about Arcadia for TvZ a long while back as well. Super hard for T to hold nat against what was then good (July-level) muta harass, easy third for Z, etc. etc. (record started out 10-0 Z:T)
But now, at any level above C+/B-, I'd reckon that Arcadia is perfectly balanced TvZ. Why? Because T's like Midas and Light eventually figured that shit out.
Map makers didn't make Arcadia to kill TvZ then, and didn't make ToTM to kill PvZ either. It simply weeds out players which know how to come up with good strategies and flexible builds versus players who are rote and mechanical. That's it.
On February 20 2011 15:53 l0st_romantic wrote: That is bad for the development of Brood War. Better maps would be maps that have completely different timings and introduce novel concepts, like Monty Hall or Dreamliner. Fortress is another good example. Tears of the Moon (forces P to adopt 1 base strategies) is also good. Bisu would not do well on a map like ToTM, for example, because he is the last protoss I would expect to actually come up with a decent way to deal with the map.
This is where you demonstrate that you don't even know what you're talking about. The map was designed so that Protoss would have no viable way of playing the map, 1 or 2 base. The nat design makes Forge FE unfeasible, and the low mineral patch count in the main (which was 7) made PvZ 1 Base play total shit. There's just no way for Protoss to beat a competent Zerg on that map.
Plus, Bisu said that he had a specially prepared build on that map anyways. Assuming that it wasn't mindgames, it would've meant that Bisu found a way to deal with it (if he hadn't lost to Fantasy we would've saw...)
You say that good maps should introduce novel concepts, and make players adapt to the map? Well guess what, Bisu does fairly well with that. Destination and Medusa were Bisu's playground, yet both introduced "novel concepts". Andromeda, a fairly defensive map w/ an in-base third, Bisu has good stats on. Arkanoid, one of the most "novel maps" you can get, Bisu is 4-1 on. Triathlon, another novel map, Bisu is currently 3-2 on which is pretty good. Monty Hall, a map you mentioned. has Bisu going 8-5 on. Hey Colosseum is a pretty novel map too, Bisu is 7-3 on that. Blitz X, another novel map! Bisu going 6-3 on that. Dreamliner, another map you mentioned, Bisu went 2-1 on. Bisu also 3-0 on Fortress. Hmmmm so many novel maps, but why is Bisu doing so well on all of these if he's so bad??
Because he's not, he's the real thing and one of the best, if not THE best Protoss of BW. Last season he had a bad slump because of a decision making crisis, and now he's back looking damn strong right now.
Jeez, looking at your reasoning, I assume you think Jaedong sucks too? After all, if Bisu's play is haphazard and chaotic (others would just call it aggressive or entertaining), then Jaedong's play must just blow your mind in terms of how "haphazard and chaotic" it is.
Arvick, other than Arkanoid, Monty Hall, Fortress, and Dreamliner, none of the other maps mentioned introduced those concepts. They didn't force the progaming community to change their build trees and metagaming to win. And Bisu's records on Monty Hall and Dreamliner are nothing to be proud of. The central issue is that Bisu doesn't invent timings for new map concepts. He doesn't have the sheer system-building ability that Flash does, or Oov or Savior did to compete.
Backing up for a second, instead of dividing players in terms of Zerg, or Terran, or Protoss, think of them in terms of what lets them win. Flash, Savior, and Oov win because they build entire metagame and build order trees that can flex very, very well, and also psychologically pin the opponent into bad spots for the next set of games by getting into their practice cycles. Just look at how Flash did it to Stork in Bacchus 08--he played an anti-carrier build on Katrina which Stork practiced against which Flash countered with a BBS.
Bisu, Jaedong, and I would throw Nada in here as well, win by mechanics and execution. They don't win by making smart mid-late-game decisions. They win by executing strategies with precision or executing them at a higher rhythm than their opponents.
This does not mean one style of player is superior to the other. This, however, does mean that the first type of player advances the metagame a lot more than the second type of player. Dominance by haphazard players does not lead to gameplay revolutions.
Case in point: look at Jaedong's dominance for Zerg versus Savior's dominance for Zerg. One period led a whole lot more strategic innovation than the other period for Zerg. Why? Because Savior won using Zerg in a new way, whereas Jaedong wins by using Zerg in an old way, better.
Nal_Ra and Daezang are examples of P's that win through new styles. Bisu simply takes other people's styles and does them better. There's no shame in that, it doesn't mean he sucks--it simply mean's he wins through instinct rather than brains. Does this make sense?
Triathlon didn't introduce concepts? Blitz X wasn't unique in its map layout to all other maps? Medusa wasn't unique in its map layout and stacked temples/minerals/giant cliff around the base (In fact, that map brought about metagame changes in PvP and TvZ)? I threw in Andromeda, Desti and Colosseum because you made the argument that Bisu would do horribly on defensive macro-oriented maps (and these 3 are creative and innovative in more subtle ways). A winning record is a winning record, you cannot overlook that.
To lump Bisu, Jaedong and Nada purely as mechanical players is a huge insult to them. They aren't great players just because of their great mechanics (many modern BW pros have great mechanics). All three of these greats have brought about strategic innovation and metagame changes through their sheer force and will. Bisu invented the current PvZ standard build +1 Sair/Speedlot, and invented the DT Forge FE in PvP (this I am assuming because there are no indicators of these builds being used prior to Bisu). And you can't seriously say that Bisu has no strategic credit for the Revolution? Sure Daezang had a Sair/DT build before, and the Forge FE was around forever, but it was Bisu who realized the importance of the Corsair in PvZ, and standardized the openings for PvZ.
And it's incredible for you to overlook Jaedong's strategic innovations too. Jaedong modernized the PvZ matchup with the 3 Base Spire 5 Hatch Hydra, and dominated ZvZ with his advanced strategic insight and micro. Savior's dominance had a lot of OBVIOUS innovation, only because his predecessors were so focused on micro-oriented Zerg and Zergs pretty much back then sucked, whereas Jaedong's innovations are a bit more subtle because of what he had to work with was already so good.
They don't win by making smart mid-late-game decisions. They win by executing strategies with precision or executing them at a higher rhythm than their opponents.
This isn't 07 anymore, where one player (Savior) is so far ahead because he has a good build, or is miles better mechanically (Nada). Almost all of the top 30 BW progamers have great macro and micro, along with precisely executed builds and intense map awareness. If it were just up to mechanics and strategy execution, then Really, Kal and Baby should be almost-bonjwas. To call Bisu and Jaedong haphazard is an insult, because their decision making is top-notch (when not slumping) at all times, especially mid-late game. Their mechanics help, but it's their decision making that makes them truly special.
And now you are saying that there's no shame for how Bisu wins. Funny, your previous posts implied derision of his style of play, and that Bisu actually isn't a very good player because his play is "haphazard" and the maps were too favoring of him.
Regarding Tears of the Protoss, even the most creative Protoss Stork admitted that the map was a graveyard, precisely due to the low min patch number and inability to Forge FE. If 1 base play can't work on maps with 8 min patches (against equally skilled Zergs), then it sure as hell won't work on maps with 7 min patches (Mineral patch numbers make a huuuge difference, part of the reason why Longinus is so P favored). I'm willing to bet a million dollars that there's no way a Protoss will ever consistently beat an equally/similarly skilled Zerg on TotM, ever.
On February 19 2011 16:32 ArvickHero wrote: Bisu won 2 starleagues back-to-back back in 07 and that wasn't even his peak ;o but I'm pretty sure LunarC was referring to Bisu's "peak play" would rival Flash's "peak play", which I would agree to.
If you want me to rephrase that, 2 starleagues in the same season. Flash won titles in 3 back to back seasons. Bisu's peak play isn't close to Flash's peak play. That's how you distinguish great players from a bonjwa. It's such a biased statement to just assume someone's peak play is just as good as a better player's. Hey guys Nal_rA's peak play was just as good as Savior's because they were really good at the same time despite the fact that Savior beat him a lot and won more leagues.
You can love Bisu all you want and I am totally okay with that, but he's done nothing to prove that he is or ever has been as good as Flash at his best. No one has done that because we JUST crowned him bonjwa a couple months ago.
Bisu consistently slaughtered Flash and many other Terrans during his "peak" period, whereas Nal_rA never beat Savior for more than 2 games in a row. Bisu has shown his moments of pure brilliance even during his slumps, and during his peak/good form he was able to reverse build order losses and imba maps/disadvantageous situations through his sheer force, much like God Young Ho. Bisu may have been nowhere near as consistent as Jaedong and Flash, but you cannot deny Bisu's "peak play" rivaling that of a bonjwa.
Um, Bisu never "slaughtered" Flash. He beat him in very very close series, or lost to him sometimes, when Bisu was at his best. For a couple years Bisu was the slight favorite, and this was Flash when he was nowhere near his peak. If you want to compare 2007-2008 Bisu to 2010 Flash I think you're absolutely insane to say he was just as good.
I mean, from the start of Flash's career until the 2009 WCG -- which is the last time Bisu beat flash, and is absolutely the most favorable I can make this for Bisu -- Flash was ahead of Bisu 10-8. First series they ever played, when Bisu was at his absolute best and expected to beat Flash, flash beat him in 2 OSLs, whereas Bisu only beat him in one MSL. At his very peak, Flash was very close to him. Bisu never "slaughtered" Flash when he was winning titles. He beat Flash when Flash was playing poorly, and that's a far sight from comparing their peaks. Flash at his peak is so far beyond how good he was when he was neck and neck with Bisu, I don't know how you can say Bisu's peak is just as good.
yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play.
On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote: yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play.
You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results.
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote: yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play.
You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results.
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
You seem to think that it is absolutely outrageous to think that Flash isn't the GOATest GOAT ever. I'd say his career is still less successful than oov's or Nada's. Nada has every achievement that Flash has, except more Kespa rank placement and 1 more title. Oov has his 'undefeated in finals' record. Boxer arguably had a better career too despite only having 3 titles. I'd say overall Bisu has the better career if he ever wins a dual title. Regardless of whether or not he does, it's certainly reasonable to compare peaks. You are not without bias yourself.
On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote: yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play.
You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results.
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
You seem to think that it is absolutely outrageous to think that Flash isn't the GOATest GOAT ever. I'd say his career is still less successful than oov's or Nada's. Nada has every achievement that Flash has, except more Kespa rank placement and 1 more title. Oov has his 'undefeated in finals' record. Boxer arguably had a better career too despite only having 3 titles. I'd say overall Bisu has the better career if he ever wins a dual title. Regardless of whether or not he does, it's certainly reasonable to compare peaks. You are not without bias yourself.
I literally never used the GOAT term. This was all about peak play and there's absolutely no way the old bonjwas are even as good as the average A-Teamer's peak play right now. This is a complete strawman through and through. You address something I never came close to mentioning just to defend the side of the argument you like. Bisu is an amazing player, quite possibly the greatest protoss ever, but there's practically no excuse to say his peak play matches Flash's. Bisu was "almost" a bonjwa like 3 years ago. Flash WAS crowned bonjwa three months ago, I just don't see how you can take this stance.
If you want to talk GOAT, though, it will take Jaedong or Flash winning 2 more titles. Until then, Nada's still the GOAT.
On February 20 2011 21:21 TwoToneTerran wrote: If you want to talk GOAT, though, it will take Jaedong or Flash winning 2 more titles. Until then, Nada's still the GOAT.
It's not NaDa's title count that makes him GOAT...
On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote: yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play.
You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results.
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
If you don't understand the concept of "peak play," that's your own fault, not ours. Plus, close this thread. The OP is outdated, shortsighted, and ridiculous.
On February 20 2011 21:21 TwoToneTerran wrote: If you want to talk GOAT, though, it will take Jaedong or Flash winning 2 more titles. Until then, Nada's still the GOAT.
It's not NaDa's title count that makes him GOAT...
Yeah it is, all anyone cares about is titles. I know you've been around for years and you want to instill that Nada will never be passed up as a player in achievements, but I don't think rose tint should overcome raw results in winning major titles. (Unless you want to go back and count all those tournaments nada won that are no longer ran anymore and that Flash and Jaedong have no chance to win, otherwise we might as well toss around GSL wins or something)
I expect you to throw out a very well written post about how Nada overcame something and his "Being in the top 30," thing, but that's like saying "No one will ever be greater than Nada until we have another 10 years of broodwar so Flash and Jaedong can be in the top 10 for x amount of years." It's so arbitrary when the metric of how often they win titles is a lot more concise. If Jaedong or Flash win 7 titles in the time it took Nada to win 4 then I don't see how they're not greater players.
On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote: yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play.
You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results.
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
If you don't understand the concept of "peak play," that's your own fault, not ours. Plus, close this thread. The OP is outdated, shortsighted, and ridiculous.
The concept of "peak play" is vague as hell already, the best definition I could give it is how "amazingly" someone plays and dominates their peers with. Unless you have a different definition, there's no way anyone's beaten Flash in that category yet since he set a new standard for that just last year. Unless "peak play" means "how good someone plays protoss."
On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote: yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play.
You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results.
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
You seem to think that it is absolutely outrageous to think that Flash isn't the GOATest GOAT ever. I'd say his career is still less successful than oov's or Nada's. Nada has every achievement that Flash has, except more Kespa rank placement and 1 more title. Oov has his 'undefeated in finals' record. Boxer arguably had a better career too despite only having 3 titles. I'd say overall Bisu has the better career if he ever wins a dual title. Regardless of whether or not he does, it's certainly reasonable to compare peaks. You are not without bias yourself.
I literally never used the GOAT term. This was all about peak play and there's absolutely no way the old bonjwas are even as good as the average A-Teamer's peak play right now. This is a complete strawman through and through. You address something I never came close to mentioning just to defend the side of the argument you like. Bisu is an amazing player, quite possibly the greatest protoss ever, but there's practically no excuse to say his peak play matches Flash's. Bisu was "almost" a bonjwa like 3 years ago. Flash WAS crowned bonjwa three months ago, I just don't see how you can take this stance.
If you want to talk GOAT, though, it will take Jaedong or Flash winning 2 more titles. Until then, Nada's still the GOAT.
Really? then what is this line?
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
That sounds like you think that the two are not comparable, when they are. Why is it outrageous to compare peaks? Because one has more titles? That can easily change. Bisu has been around for longer, so if he won a dual right now I'd say his career might just be better. By no means is it something you cannot compare.
And no, the bonjwas wouldn't be able to beat A-teamers consistently nowadays. But I'm also sure that if Flash started out in Oov's/Nada's time, he would've still had trouble with the bonjwas because back then, they had something that no one else had, and something no one else would have for years. It's like comparing a 2nd world country of today with the Roman Empire, which really is not a fair comparison at all.
On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote: yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play.
You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results.
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
You seem to think that it is absolutely outrageous to think that Flash isn't the GOATest GOAT ever. I'd say his career is still less successful than oov's or Nada's. Nada has every achievement that Flash has, except more Kespa rank placement and 1 more title. Oov has his 'undefeated in finals' record. Boxer arguably had a better career too despite only having 3 titles. I'd say overall Bisu has the better career if he ever wins a dual title. Regardless of whether or not he does, it's certainly reasonable to compare peaks. You are not without bias yourself.
I literally never used the GOAT term. This was all about peak play and there's absolutely no way the old bonjwas are even as good as the average A-Teamer's peak play right now. This is a complete strawman through and through. You address something I never came close to mentioning just to defend the side of the argument you like. Bisu is an amazing player, quite possibly the greatest protoss ever, but there's practically no excuse to say his peak play matches Flash's. Bisu was "almost" a bonjwa like 3 years ago. Flash WAS crowned bonjwa three months ago, I just don't see how you can take this stance.
If you want to talk GOAT, though, it will take Jaedong or Flash winning 2 more titles. Until then, Nada's still the GOAT.
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
That sounds like you think that the two are not comparable, when they are. Why is it outrageous to compare peaks? Because one has more titles? That can easily change. Bisu has been around for longer, so if he won a dual right now I'd say his career might just be better. By no means is it something you cannot compare.
That line had nothing to do with him being the greatest of all time? It specifically said he had the greatest peak -- the double title win 2 weeks apart (The hardest part being winning Bo5s in the MSL finals and OSL semifinals just a few days apart).
That said, lol, come on man. "If Bisu wins doubles titles his career might just be better," That's such a huge if, what the hell? We're not talking about the very unlikely future. You know what, if Bisu wins doubles titles and kicks just as much ass as Flash, anytime in the future, I will cede that he has the highest peak of any progamer. WHEN he does that. Until then could you atleast do me the favor of saying, atleast for now, Flash had the highest peak last year?
And no, the bonjwas wouldn't be able to beat A-teamers consistently nowadays. But I'm also sure that if Flash started out in Oov's/Nada's time, he would've still had trouble with the bonjwas because back then, they had something that no one else had, and something no one else would have for years. It's like comparing a 2nd world country of today with the Roman Empire, which really is not a fair comparison at all.
Yeah, but when we're talking about peak play, that's just how it falls. It might not be fair to ancient romans that we have guns, but that still makes us much better than them at killing things.
On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote: yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play.
You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results.
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
You seem to think that it is absolutely outrageous to think that Flash isn't the GOATest GOAT ever. I'd say his career is still less successful than oov's or Nada's. Nada has every achievement that Flash has, except more Kespa rank placement and 1 more title. Oov has his 'undefeated in finals' record. Boxer arguably had a better career too despite only having 3 titles. I'd say overall Bisu has the better career if he ever wins a dual title. Regardless of whether or not he does, it's certainly reasonable to compare peaks. You are not without bias yourself.
I literally never used the GOAT term. This was all about peak play and there's absolutely no way the old bonjwas are even as good as the average A-Teamer's peak play right now. This is a complete strawman through and through. You address something I never came close to mentioning just to defend the side of the argument you like. Bisu is an amazing player, quite possibly the greatest protoss ever, but there's practically no excuse to say his peak play matches Flash's. Bisu was "almost" a bonjwa like 3 years ago. Flash WAS crowned bonjwa three months ago, I just don't see how you can take this stance.
If you want to talk GOAT, though, it will take Jaedong or Flash winning 2 more titles. Until then, Nada's still the GOAT.
Really? then what is this line?
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
That sounds like you think that the two are not comparable, when they are. Why is it outrageous to compare peaks? Because one has more titles? That can easily change. Bisu has been around for longer, so if he won a dual right now I'd say his career might just be better. By no means is it something you cannot compare.
That line had nothing to do with him being the greatest of all time? It specifically said he had the greatest peak -- the double title win 2 weeks apart (The hardest part being winning Bo5s in the MSL finals and OSL semifinals just a few days apart).
That said, lol, come on man. "If Bisu wins doubles titles his career might just be better," That's such a huge if, what the hell? We're not talking about the very unlikely future. You know what, if Bisu wins doubles titles and kicks just as much ass as Flash, anytime in the future, I will cede that he has the highest peak of any progamer. WHEN he does that. Until then could you atleast do me the favor of saying, atleast for now, Flash had the highest peak last year?
And no, the bonjwas wouldn't be able to beat A-teamers consistently nowadays. But I'm also sure that if Flash started out in Oov's/Nada's time, he would've still had trouble with the bonjwas because back then, they had something that no one else had, and something no one else would have for years. It's like comparing a 2nd world country of today with the Roman Empire, which really is not a fair comparison at all.
Yeah, but when we're talking about peak play, that's just how it falls. It might not be fair to ancient romans that we have guns, but that still makes us much better than them at killing things.
I will say that Flash has the best peak of any current player. Whether or not he is better than Oov, Boxer, or Nada is a different story. Yet you can't say that Bisu/JD cannot compare. Also, as far as the Romans, I'm trying to say something along the lines of "If not for the Romans, we may have never had guns in the first place." Just replace Romans with bonjwas and guns with macro mechanics. So it certainly isn't unfair to say that the bonjwas did more to be better, even if any top player would beat them simply because they came later.
On February 21 2011 03:47 Lightwip wrote:Also, as far as the Romans, I'm trying to say something along the lines of "If not for the Romans, we may have never had guns in the first place." Just replace Romans with bonjwas and guns with macro mechanics. So it certainly isn't unfair to say that the bonjwas did more to be better, even if any top player would beat them simply because they came later.
You mean the Chinese!
On February 21 2011 01:21 Mortality wrote:It's not NaDa's title count that makes him GOAT...
And no, the bonjwas wouldn't be able to beat A-teamers consistently nowadays. But I'm also sure that if Flash started out in Oov's/Nada's time, he would've still had trouble with the bonjwas because back then, they had something that no one else had, and something no one else would have for years. It's like comparing a 2nd world country of today with the Roman Empire, which really is not a fair comparison at all.
What warped mode of reasoning is this? It seems to me you are, first and foremost, begging the question, and secondly, indulging in a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc - neither of which is a valid form of argumentation. The fact that Flash did not play during the eras of yore does not mean that he would not have defined those eras.
Riddle me this; if Flash were to have played during Nada/Oov's era(s), where exactly would his play be lacking? His fundamentals? His strategic or tactical reasoning? His mental acumen? His macro, micro or multitasking? Can you honestly say this would have been different in the past, knowing what you do about today's Flash? The idea that Flash's skillset or talents would not translate to other eras is nothing but baseless conjecture on your part. Yes, I contend that Flash has that "something" that no one else has today - and he would still have it if he played back then.
Your analogy, too, fails to take into account that Flash is not par of the course - he is to the bonjwas of old as Plato is to the pre-Socratics - doubtlessly indebted, indisputably (more than) their equal.
On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote: yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play.
You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results.
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
You seem to think that it is absolutely outrageous to think that Flash isn't the GOATest GOAT ever. I'd say his career is still less successful than oov's or Nada's. Nada has every achievement that Flash has, except more Kespa rank placement and 1 more title. Oov has his 'undefeated in finals' record. Boxer arguably had a better career too despite only having 3 titles. I'd say overall Bisu has the better career if he ever wins a dual title. Regardless of whether or not he does, it's certainly reasonable to compare peaks. You are not without bias yourself.
I literally never used the GOAT term. This was all about peak play and there's absolutely no way the old bonjwas are even as good as the average A-Teamer's peak play right now. This is a complete strawman through and through. You address something I never came close to mentioning just to defend the side of the argument you like. Bisu is an amazing player, quite possibly the greatest protoss ever, but there's practically no excuse to say his peak play matches Flash's. Bisu was "almost" a bonjwa like 3 years ago. Flash WAS crowned bonjwa three months ago, I just don't see how you can take this stance.
If you want to talk GOAT, though, it will take Jaedong or Flash winning 2 more titles. Until then, Nada's still the GOAT.
Really? then what is this line?
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
That sounds like you think that the two are not comparable, when they are. Why is it outrageous to compare peaks? Because one has more titles? That can easily change. Bisu has been around for longer, so if he won a dual right now I'd say his career might just be better. By no means is it something you cannot compare.
That line had nothing to do with him being the greatest of all time? It specifically said he had the greatest peak -- the double title win 2 weeks apart (The hardest part being winning Bo5s in the MSL finals and OSL semifinals just a few days apart).
That said, lol, come on man. "If Bisu wins doubles titles his career might just be better," That's such a huge if, what the hell? We're not talking about the very unlikely future. You know what, if Bisu wins doubles titles and kicks just as much ass as Flash, anytime in the future, I will cede that he has the highest peak of any progamer. WHEN he does that. Until then could you atleast do me the favor of saying, atleast for now, Flash had the highest peak last year?
And no, the bonjwas wouldn't be able to beat A-teamers consistently nowadays. But I'm also sure that if Flash started out in Oov's/Nada's time, he would've still had trouble with the bonjwas because back then, they had something that no one else had, and something no one else would have for years. It's like comparing a 2nd world country of today with the Roman Empire, which really is not a fair comparison at all.
Yeah, but when we're talking about peak play, that's just how it falls. It might not be fair to ancient romans that we have guns, but that still makes us much better than them at killing things.
Twotone, it's not productive to argue about whether Flash can compare with players in the past. It's too hard to win that argument. Instead, it's better to focus on the slam dunk argument of how Flash was, is, and will be better than any other current player, especially Bisu. Lightwip has no counterargument to that.
On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote: yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play.
You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results.
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
You seem to think that it is absolutely outrageous to think that Flash isn't the GOATest GOAT ever. I'd say his career is still less successful than oov's or Nada's. Nada has every achievement that Flash has, except more Kespa rank placement and 1 more title. Oov has his 'undefeated in finals' record. Boxer arguably had a better career too despite only having 3 titles. I'd say overall Bisu has the better career if he ever wins a dual title. Regardless of whether or not he does, it's certainly reasonable to compare peaks. You are not without bias yourself.
I literally never used the GOAT term. This was all about peak play and there's absolutely no way the old bonjwas are even as good as the average A-Teamer's peak play right now. This is a complete strawman through and through. You address something I never came close to mentioning just to defend the side of the argument you like. Bisu is an amazing player, quite possibly the greatest protoss ever, but there's practically no excuse to say his peak play matches Flash's. Bisu was "almost" a bonjwa like 3 years ago. Flash WAS crowned bonjwa three months ago, I just don't see how you can take this stance.
If you want to talk GOAT, though, it will take Jaedong or Flash winning 2 more titles. Until then, Nada's still the GOAT.
Really? then what is this line?
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
That sounds like you think that the two are not comparable, when they are. Why is it outrageous to compare peaks? Because one has more titles? That can easily change. Bisu has been around for longer, so if he won a dual right now I'd say his career might just be better. By no means is it something you cannot compare.
That line had nothing to do with him being the greatest of all time? It specifically said he had the greatest peak -- the double title win 2 weeks apart (The hardest part being winning Bo5s in the MSL finals and OSL semifinals just a few days apart).
That said, lol, come on man. "If Bisu wins doubles titles his career might just be better," That's such a huge if, what the hell? We're not talking about the very unlikely future. You know what, if Bisu wins doubles titles and kicks just as much ass as Flash, anytime in the future, I will cede that he has the highest peak of any progamer. WHEN he does that. Until then could you atleast do me the favor of saying, atleast for now, Flash had the highest peak last year?
And no, the bonjwas wouldn't be able to beat A-teamers consistently nowadays. But I'm also sure that if Flash started out in Oov's/Nada's time, he would've still had trouble with the bonjwas because back then, they had something that no one else had, and something no one else would have for years. It's like comparing a 2nd world country of today with the Roman Empire, which really is not a fair comparison at all.
Yeah, but when we're talking about peak play, that's just how it falls. It might not be fair to ancient romans that we have guns, but that still makes us much better than them at killing things.
Twotone, it's not productive to argue about whether Flash can compare with players in the past. It's too hard to win that argument. Instead, it's better to focus on the slam dunk argument of how Flash was, is, and will be better than any other current player, especially Bisu. Lightwip has no counterargument to that.
But Bisu would have been better than Oov and Nada if he had been around back then. So this means Bisu is superior to Flash.
Well, you can argue, bisu did change the flow of the game, how its played during his peak / prime, like the bonjwas did before him.
What did Flash? He won everything, no doubt a fucking huge accomplishment and i have great respect for that, but that did/is he really contribute/ing to the game during his peak? Nothing special, he does the same like every terran, just better.
And no, the bonjwas wouldn't be able to beat A-teamers consistently nowadays. But I'm also sure that if Flash started out in Oov's/Nada's time, he would've still had trouble with the bonjwas because back then, they had something that no one else had, and something no one else would have for years. It's like comparing a 2nd world country of today with the Roman Empire, which really is not a fair comparison at all.
What warped mode of reasoning is this? It seems to me you are, first and foremost, begging the question, and secondly, indulging in a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc - neither of which is a valid form of argumentation. The fact that Flash did not play during the eras of yore does not mean that he would not have defined those eras.
Riddle me this; if Flash were to have played during Nada/Oov's era(s), where exactly would his play be lacking? His fundamentals? His strategic or tactical reasoning? His mental acumen? His macro, micro or multitasking? Can you honestly say this would have been different in the past, knowing what you do about today's Flash? The idea that Flash's skillset or talents would not translate to other eras is nothing but baseless conjecture on your part. Yes, I contend that Flash has that "something" that no one else has today - and he would still have it if he played back then.
Your analogy, too, fails to take into account that Flash is not par of the course - he is to the bonjwas of old as Plato is to the pre-Socratics - doubtlessly indebted, indisputably (more than) their equal.
If Flash played back then he would indeed be lacking the macro mechanics, the fundamentals, and the strategic ability. These things were created by the bonjwas and weren't used by everyone until way later. Hell, Savior owned with his macro while having low APM simply because he had something no one else had - insight into better zerg macro mechanics.
On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote: yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play.
You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results.
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
You seem to think that it is absolutely outrageous to think that Flash isn't the GOATest GOAT ever. I'd say his career is still less successful than oov's or Nada's. Nada has every achievement that Flash has, except more Kespa rank placement and 1 more title. Oov has his 'undefeated in finals' record. Boxer arguably had a better career too despite only having 3 titles. I'd say overall Bisu has the better career if he ever wins a dual title. Regardless of whether or not he does, it's certainly reasonable to compare peaks. You are not without bias yourself.
I literally never used the GOAT term. This was all about peak play and there's absolutely no way the old bonjwas are even as good as the average A-Teamer's peak play right now. This is a complete strawman through and through. You address something I never came close to mentioning just to defend the side of the argument you like. Bisu is an amazing player, quite possibly the greatest protoss ever, but there's practically no excuse to say his peak play matches Flash's. Bisu was "almost" a bonjwa like 3 years ago. Flash WAS crowned bonjwa three months ago, I just don't see how you can take this stance.
If you want to talk GOAT, though, it will take Jaedong or Flash winning 2 more titles. Until then, Nada's still the GOAT.
Really? then what is this line?
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
That sounds like you think that the two are not comparable, when they are. Why is it outrageous to compare peaks? Because one has more titles? That can easily change. Bisu has been around for longer, so if he won a dual right now I'd say his career might just be better. By no means is it something you cannot compare.
That line had nothing to do with him being the greatest of all time? It specifically said he had the greatest peak -- the double title win 2 weeks apart (The hardest part being winning Bo5s in the MSL finals and OSL semifinals just a few days apart).
That said, lol, come on man. "If Bisu wins doubles titles his career might just be better," That's such a huge if, what the hell? We're not talking about the very unlikely future. You know what, if Bisu wins doubles titles and kicks just as much ass as Flash, anytime in the future, I will cede that he has the highest peak of any progamer. WHEN he does that. Until then could you atleast do me the favor of saying, atleast for now, Flash had the highest peak last year?
And no, the bonjwas wouldn't be able to beat A-teamers consistently nowadays. But I'm also sure that if Flash started out in Oov's/Nada's time, he would've still had trouble with the bonjwas because back then, they had something that no one else had, and something no one else would have for years. It's like comparing a 2nd world country of today with the Roman Empire, which really is not a fair comparison at all.
Yeah, but when we're talking about peak play, that's just how it falls. It might not be fair to ancient romans that we have guns, but that still makes us much better than them at killing things.
Twotone, it's not productive to argue about whether Flash can compare with players in the past. It's too hard to win that argument. Instead, it's better to focus on the slam dunk argument of how Flash was, is, and will be better than any other current player, especially Bisu. Lightwip has no counterargument to that.
But Bisu would have been better than Oov and Nada if he had been around back then. So this means Bisu is superior to Flash.
Let's deconstruct this.
1) "But Bisu would have been better than Oov and Nada if he had been around back then."
Proof? How do you know this? How can you compare a current player with a past player in terms of skill? It's an unarguable discussion.
2) "So this means Bisu is superior to Flash."
Even if 1 is true, it doesn't imply that Bisu is superior to Flash, because then you'd have to prove that Flash is NOT better than Oov and Nada if he had been around back then.
EDIT:
Wait just realized you were being sarcastic. My bad.
On February 21 2011 04:34 Elefanto wrote: Well, you can argue, bisu did change the flow of the game, how its played during his peak / prime, like the bonjwas did before him.
What did Flash? He won everything, no doubt a fucking huge accomplishment and i have great respect for that, but that did/is he really contribute/ing to the game during his peak? Nothing special, he does the same like every terran, just better.
The mass tank thing was probably the biggest change in TvZ since the destination-mech craze, as well as inane amounts of match specific timing pushes no one's seen before (WHY DO THOSE GOLIATHS HAVE MEDIC MARINE BACKING). Also, in TvP he's kind of taken the 12nex bunker rush to a different extreme, invented that weird attack that's like a super fake double which every protoss and their mothers prepare for every game against him. It becomes more obvious how much he personally changes TvP when you see almost every protoss that beats him pulls out some crazy new strategy (4 gate push in broodwar, what the hell stork?!).
It might not be as plainly obvious as when bisu sair dt'd savior to pieces, but I'd say Flash has changed the game just as not if not more than everyone since Savior.
On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote: yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play.
You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results.
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
You seem to think that it is absolutely outrageous to think that Flash isn't the GOATest GOAT ever. I'd say his career is still less successful than oov's or Nada's. Nada has every achievement that Flash has, except more Kespa rank placement and 1 more title. Oov has his 'undefeated in finals' record. Boxer arguably had a better career too despite only having 3 titles. I'd say overall Bisu has the better career if he ever wins a dual title. Regardless of whether or not he does, it's certainly reasonable to compare peaks. You are not without bias yourself.
I literally never used the GOAT term. This was all about peak play and there's absolutely no way the old bonjwas are even as good as the average A-Teamer's peak play right now. This is a complete strawman through and through. You address something I never came close to mentioning just to defend the side of the argument you like. Bisu is an amazing player, quite possibly the greatest protoss ever, but there's practically no excuse to say his peak play matches Flash's. Bisu was "almost" a bonjwa like 3 years ago. Flash WAS crowned bonjwa three months ago, I just don't see how you can take this stance.
If you want to talk GOAT, though, it will take Jaedong or Flash winning 2 more titles. Until then, Nada's still the GOAT.
Really? then what is this line?
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
That sounds like you think that the two are not comparable, when they are. Why is it outrageous to compare peaks? Because one has more titles? That can easily change. Bisu has been around for longer, so if he won a dual right now I'd say his career might just be better. By no means is it something you cannot compare.
That line had nothing to do with him being the greatest of all time? It specifically said he had the greatest peak -- the double title win 2 weeks apart (The hardest part being winning Bo5s in the MSL finals and OSL semifinals just a few days apart).
That said, lol, come on man. "If Bisu wins doubles titles his career might just be better," That's such a huge if, what the hell? We're not talking about the very unlikely future. You know what, if Bisu wins doubles titles and kicks just as much ass as Flash, anytime in the future, I will cede that he has the highest peak of any progamer. WHEN he does that. Until then could you atleast do me the favor of saying, atleast for now, Flash had the highest peak last year?
And no, the bonjwas wouldn't be able to beat A-teamers consistently nowadays. But I'm also sure that if Flash started out in Oov's/Nada's time, he would've still had trouble with the bonjwas because back then, they had something that no one else had, and something no one else would have for years. It's like comparing a 2nd world country of today with the Roman Empire, which really is not a fair comparison at all.
Yeah, but when we're talking about peak play, that's just how it falls. It might not be fair to ancient romans that we have guns, but that still makes us much better than them at killing things.
Twotone, it's not productive to argue about whether Flash can compare with players in the past. It's too hard to win that argument. Instead, it's better to focus on the slam dunk argument of how Flash was, is, and will be better than any other current player, especially Bisu. Lightwip has no counterargument to that.
That underlined part is flavored with so much fanboyism there isnt a trace of reason or logic left in it. Flash is good, awesome, nigh invincible, yes. But to actually argue that he will be better than anyone (in this timeline) can ever be... I dont see how you can argue that point.. Unless of course you are psychic and know the future, which obviously you arent.. So do try to keep reason n logic in your mind while arguing, not just hot burning pictures of Flash.
I dont know how people says that Bisu fans are annoying (they express their manlove openly in LR threads, thats all i can see). And while im not in a neutral position (Bisu fan).. I would imagine any such neutral person will find some of these Flash's fan annoying beyond tolerable bounds.
On February 21 2011 04:34 Elefanto wrote: Well, you can argue, bisu did change the flow of the game, how its played during his peak / prime, like the bonjwas did before him.
What did Flash? He won everything, no doubt a fucking huge accomplishment and i have great respect for that, but that did/is he really contribute/ing to the game during his peak? Nothing special, he does the same like every terran, just better.
The mass tank thing was probably the biggest change in TvZ since the destination-mech craze, as well as inane amounts of match specific timing pushes no one's seen before (WHY DO THOSE GOLIATHS HAVE MEDIC MARINE BACKING). Also, in TvP he's kind of taken the 12nex bunker rush to a different extreme, invented that weird attack that's like a super fake double which every protoss and their mothers prepare for every game against him. It becomes more obvious how much he personally changes TvP when you see almost every protoss that beats him pulls out some crazy new strategy (4 gate push in broodwar, what the hell stork?!).
It might not be as plainly obvious as when bisu sair dt'd savior to pieces, but I'd say Flash has changed the game just as not if not more than everyone since Savior.
Yep. Savior invented one build and playstyle that forced people to practice and adopt to. Bisu countered that build. Flash invented a whole system of builds, a management "plan" that allows for the Terran to utilize scan, turrets to block incoming obs/scout denial, to consistently have the informational and decision advantage over other races. One of the biggest advantages of Terran that Flash has realized is that as a T you don't need to just defend fewer bases, you also don't need to worry about other races seeing what the heck you're doing inside your base if you lay out turrets properly, while comsat is essentially an unblockable maphack. That's Flash's innovation, and it plays out at a much deeper level than learning how to do cute shit with corsairs or DTs versus one specific Zerg build order.
On February 21 2011 04:34 Elefanto wrote: Well, you can argue, bisu did change the flow of the game, how its played during his peak / prime, like the bonjwas did before him.
What did Flash? He won everything, no doubt a fucking huge accomplishment and i have great respect for that, but that did/is he really contribute/ing to the game during his peak? Nothing special, he does the same like every terran, just better.
The mass tank thing was probably the biggest change in TvZ since the destination-mech craze, as well as inane amounts of match specific timing pushes no one's seen before (WHY DO THOSE GOLIATHS HAVE MEDIC MARINE BACKING). Also, in TvP he's kind of taken the 12nex bunker rush to a different extreme, invented that weird attack that's like a super fake double which every protoss and their mothers prepare for every game against him. It becomes more obvious how much he personally changes TvP when you see almost every protoss that beats him pulls out some crazy new strategy (4 gate push in broodwar, what the hell stork?!).
It might not be as plainly obvious as when bisu sair dt'd savior to pieces, but I'd say Flash has changed the game just as not if not more than everyone since Savior.
On February 21 2011 04:34 Elefanto wrote: Well, you can argue, bisu did change the flow of the game, how its played during his peak / prime, like the bonjwas did before him.
What did Flash? He won everything, no doubt a fucking huge accomplishment and i have great respect for that, but that did/is he really contribute/ing to the game during his peak? Nothing special, he does the same like every terran, just better.
The mass tank thing was probably the biggest change in TvZ since the destination-mech craze, as well as inane amounts of match specific timing pushes no one's seen before (WHY DO THOSE GOLIATHS HAVE MEDIC MARINE BACKING). Also, in TvP he's kind of taken the 12nex bunker rush to a different extreme, invented that weird attack that's like a super fake double which every protoss and their mothers prepare for every game against him. It becomes more obvious how much he personally changes TvP when you see almost every protoss that beats him pulls out some crazy new strategy (4 gate push in broodwar, what the hell stork?!).
It might not be as plainly obvious as when bisu sair dt'd savior to pieces, but I'd say Flash has changed the game just as not if not more than everyone since Savior.
Mass tank thing was Midas and Fantasy's thing.
I think what Twotone means here is the lategame mech switch that Flash pulled vs Kwanro on Roadrunner.
On February 21 2011 04:34 Elefanto wrote: Well, you can argue, bisu did change the flow of the game, how its played during his peak / prime, like the bonjwas did before him.
What did Flash? He won everything, no doubt a fucking huge accomplishment and i have great respect for that, but that did/is he really contribute/ing to the game during his peak? Nothing special, he does the same like every terran, just better.
The mass tank thing was probably the biggest change in TvZ since the destination-mech craze, as well as inane amounts of match specific timing pushes no one's seen before (WHY DO THOSE GOLIATHS HAVE MEDIC MARINE BACKING). Also, in TvP he's kind of taken the 12nex bunker rush to a different extreme, invented that weird attack that's like a super fake double which every protoss and their mothers prepare for every game against him. It becomes more obvious how much he personally changes TvP when you see almost every protoss that beats him pulls out some crazy new strategy (4 gate push in broodwar, what the hell stork?!).
It might not be as plainly obvious as when bisu sair dt'd savior to pieces, but I'd say Flash has changed the game just as not if not more than everyone since Savior.
Mass tank thing was Midas and Fantasy's thing.
I think what Twotone means here is the lategame mech switch that Flash pulled vs Kwanro on Roadrunner.
That's what im referring to as well. Its the same thing, well obviously executed better.
And no, the bonjwas wouldn't be able to beat A-teamers consistently nowadays. But I'm also sure that if Flash started out in Oov's/Nada's time, he would've still had trouble with the bonjwas because back then, they had something that no one else had, and something no one else would have for years. It's like comparing a 2nd world country of today with the Roman Empire, which really is not a fair comparison at all.
What warped mode of reasoning is this? It seems to me you are, first and foremost, begging the question, and secondly, indulging in a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc - neither of which is a valid form of argumentation. The fact that Flash did not play during the eras of yore does not mean that he would not have defined those eras.
Riddle me this; if Flash were to have played during Nada/Oov's era(s), where exactly would his play be lacking? His fundamentals? His strategic or tactical reasoning? His mental acumen? His macro, micro or multitasking? Can you honestly say this would have been different in the past, knowing what you do about today's Flash? The idea that Flash's skillset or talents would not translate to other eras is nothing but baseless conjecture on your part. Yes, I contend that Flash has that "something" that no one else has today - and he would still have it if he played back then.
Your analogy, too, fails to take into account that Flash is not par of the course - he is to the bonjwas of old as Plato is to the pre-Socratics - doubtlessly indebted, indisputably (more than) their equal.
If Flash played back then he would indeed be lacking the macro mechanics, the fundamentals, and the strategic ability. These things were created by the bonjwas and weren't used by everyone until way later. Hell, Savior owned with his macro while having low APM simply because he had something no one else had - insight into better zerg macro mechanics.
And the fact that Flash is owning everyone else who "learned from the bonjwas" doesn't tip you off to the fact that Flash himself is defining the way the game is played? It's not about legacy or influence, it's about natural talent and dedication. Flash would still be a leading figure during Oov's era because history has shown he is simply better than everyone else at Starcraft - why would you assume he would not create his own style for himself, as he does now?
And I can't believe people are ignorant of the many, many strategic trends originating with Flash. His contributions to TvP alone (the majority of which are palpable enough to be apreciated by the layman) are enough to secure him his place as a master strategist, and that's not even accounting for his meticulous timing attack builds and one-off strategems (within every matchup).
On February 21 2011 04:34 Elefanto wrote: Well, you can argue, bisu did change the flow of the game, how its played during his peak / prime, like the bonjwas did before him.
What did Flash? He won everything, no doubt a fucking huge accomplishment and i have great respect for that, but that did/is he really contribute/ing to the game during his peak? Nothing special, he does the same like every terran, just better.
The mass tank thing was probably the biggest change in TvZ since the destination-mech craze, as well as inane amounts of match specific timing pushes no one's seen before (WHY DO THOSE GOLIATHS HAVE MEDIC MARINE BACKING). Also, in TvP he's kind of taken the 12nex bunker rush to a different extreme, invented that weird attack that's like a super fake double which every protoss and their mothers prepare for every game against him. It becomes more obvious how much he personally changes TvP when you see almost every protoss that beats him pulls out some crazy new strategy (4 gate push in broodwar, what the hell stork?!).
It might not be as plainly obvious as when bisu sair dt'd savior to pieces, but I'd say Flash has changed the game just as not if not more than everyone since Savior.
Mass tank thing was Midas and Fantasy's thing.
I think what Twotone means here is the lategame mech switch that Flash pulled vs Kwanro on Roadrunner.
That's what im referring to as well. Its the same thing, well obviously executed better.
Fantasy and Midas didn't invent that. Show me the first game you saw it appear in, please
On February 21 2011 04:34 Elefanto wrote: Well, you can argue, bisu did change the flow of the game, how its played during his peak / prime, like the bonjwas did before him.
What did Flash? He won everything, no doubt a fucking huge accomplishment and i have great respect for that, but that did/is he really contribute/ing to the game during his peak? Nothing special, he does the same like every terran, just better.
The mass tank thing was probably the biggest change in TvZ since the destination-mech craze, as well as inane amounts of match specific timing pushes no one's seen before (WHY DO THOSE GOLIATHS HAVE MEDIC MARINE BACKING). Also, in TvP he's kind of taken the 12nex bunker rush to a different extreme, invented that weird attack that's like a super fake double which every protoss and their mothers prepare for every game against him. It becomes more obvious how much he personally changes TvP when you see almost every protoss that beats him pulls out some crazy new strategy (4 gate push in broodwar, what the hell stork?!).
It might not be as plainly obvious as when bisu sair dt'd savior to pieces, but I'd say Flash has changed the game just as not if not more than everyone since Savior.
Mass tank thing was Midas and Fantasy's thing.
I think what Twotone means here is the lategame mech switch that Flash pulled vs Kwanro on Roadrunner.
That's what im referring to as well. Its the same thing, well obviously executed better.
Fantasy and Midas didn't invent that. Show me the first game you saw it appear in, please
well who did? from all accounts I've heard, Midas invented it...
On February 21 2011 04:34 Elefanto wrote: Well, you can argue, bisu did change the flow of the game, how its played during his peak / prime, like the bonjwas did before him.
What did Flash? He won everything, no doubt a fucking huge accomplishment and i have great respect for that, but that did/is he really contribute/ing to the game during his peak? Nothing special, he does the same like every terran, just better.
The mass tank thing was probably the biggest change in TvZ since the destination-mech craze, as well as inane amounts of match specific timing pushes no one's seen before (WHY DO THOSE GOLIATHS HAVE MEDIC MARINE BACKING). Also, in TvP he's kind of taken the 12nex bunker rush to a different extreme, invented that weird attack that's like a super fake double which every protoss and their mothers prepare for every game against him. It becomes more obvious how much he personally changes TvP when you see almost every protoss that beats him pulls out some crazy new strategy (4 gate push in broodwar, what the hell stork?!).
It might not be as plainly obvious as when bisu sair dt'd savior to pieces, but I'd say Flash has changed the game just as not if not more than everyone since Savior.
Mass tank thing was Midas and Fantasy's thing.
I think what Twotone means here is the lategame mech switch that Flash pulled vs Kwanro on Roadrunner.
That's what im referring to as well. Its the same thing, well obviously executed better.
Fantasy and Midas didn't invent that. Show me the first game you saw it appear in, please
I remember seeing Fantasy use it before Flash but i already had heard that Midas was doing it before then. I can't personally link you the first game he used it on but liquipedia SHOULD be correct.
On February 21 2011 04:34 Elefanto wrote: Well, you can argue, bisu did change the flow of the game, how its played during his peak / prime, like the bonjwas did before him.
What did Flash? He won everything, no doubt a fucking huge accomplishment and i have great respect for that, but that did/is he really contribute/ing to the game during his peak? Nothing special, he does the same like every terran, just better.
The mass tank thing was probably the biggest change in TvZ since the destination-mech craze, as well as inane amounts of match specific timing pushes no one's seen before (WHY DO THOSE GOLIATHS HAVE MEDIC MARINE BACKING). Also, in TvP he's kind of taken the 12nex bunker rush to a different extreme, invented that weird attack that's like a super fake double which every protoss and their mothers prepare for every game against him. It becomes more obvious how much he personally changes TvP when you see almost every protoss that beats him pulls out some crazy new strategy (4 gate push in broodwar, what the hell stork?!).
It might not be as plainly obvious as when bisu sair dt'd savior to pieces, but I'd say Flash has changed the game just as not if not more than everyone since Savior.
Alright, lets not get ahead of ourselves with what Flash invented. The Mass Tank was Midas's thing, and Bachanic Pushes predate Flash. As far as I know, Flash invented the MnM off-timing push for TvZ, the Goliath +1 armor timing push, the anit-carrier build and the tank-heavier Bachanic push in TvP (haven't seen that one before) and popularized the fast upgrades turtle play in TvP. Flash brought about a lot of changes, so lets not discredit him either.
Forgot to credit Flash for the Strong FD lol, but what do you mean by "12nex bunker rush to a different extreme"? I think bunker rush->vulture was done before Flash, not sure though.
I guess it just comes down to opinion then, whether or not Bisu could rival Flash in terms of "peak play". I say that because he's shown so many holy god moments, like the famous mine defense against Flash, his multitasking defense against Baby on PR, his multi-location harassment ability, the ability to strike at perfect timings and defeat build order losses (in PvP), and the ability to comeback in disadvantaged situations w/ the perfect decisions (see vPure on PR, vGreat on Icarus for a couple of examples). In this regard, its subjective I guess so we can agree to disagree.
On February 21 2011 04:34 Elefanto wrote: Well, you can argue, bisu did change the flow of the game, how its played during his peak / prime, like the bonjwas did before him.
What did Flash? He won everything, no doubt a fucking huge accomplishment and i have great respect for that, but that did/is he really contribute/ing to the game during his peak? Nothing special, he does the same like every terran, just better.
The mass tank thing was probably the biggest change in TvZ since the destination-mech craze, as well as inane amounts of match specific timing pushes no one's seen before (WHY DO THOSE GOLIATHS HAVE MEDIC MARINE BACKING). Also, in TvP he's kind of taken the 12nex bunker rush to a different extreme, invented that weird attack that's like a super fake double which every protoss and their mothers prepare for every game against him. It becomes more obvious how much he personally changes TvP when you see almost every protoss that beats him pulls out some crazy new strategy (4 gate push in broodwar, what the hell stork?!).
It might not be as plainly obvious as when bisu sair dt'd savior to pieces, but I'd say Flash has changed the game just as not if not more than everyone since Savior.
Yep. Savior invented one build and playstyle that forced people to practice and adopt to. Bisu countered that build. Flash invented a whole system of builds, a management "plan" that allows for the Terran to utilize scan, turrets to block incoming obs/scout denial, to consistently have the informational and decision advantage over other races. One of the biggest advantages of Terran that Flash has realized is that as a T you don't need to just defend fewer bases, you also don't need to worry about other races seeing what the heck you're doing inside your base if you lay out turrets properly, while comsat is essentially an unblockable maphack. That's Flash's innovation, and it plays out at a much deeper level than learning how to do cute shit with corsairs or DTs versus one specific Zerg build order.
man, what the hell are you talking about? You keep saying Flash has a management "plan", a whole "system of builds"(I'm not exactly clear what you mean by this, pls explain more)? And then you degrade Bisu's original revolution to simply cute shit? Hey I can do that too. Bisu has a whole management "plan" and a "system of choices" in PvZ because he realized the importance of the corsair in his Revolution. With the Corsair, he can figure out what the Zerg is up to and hit tight timing windows to punish the Zerg for being too greedy, whether it be with DT, Zealots or Reavers. You make it seem like all the other players just play without thinking, when all of the top players play the art of denying info have a series of plans and decision-making trees throughout their game.
I think it's clear at this point that most of the people in this thread have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and are not bothered to do a little research or speak from adequate experience.
Ignore this post if you want, but all you are doing is furthering a pointless debate full of half-baked opinions based on an inadequate history of watching VODs, limited understanding of the game, and limited understanding of how progamers actually think and play.
Sooner or later somebody like ArvickHero who actually knows what he is talking about is going to come along and smack everyone.
On February 21 2011 05:32 ArvickHero wrote: Alright, lets not get ahead of ourselves with what Flash invented. The Mass Tank was Midas's thing, and Bachanic Pushes predate Flash. As far as I know, Flash invented the MnM off-timing push for TvZ, the Goliath +1 armor timing push, the anit-carrier build and the tank-heavier Bachanic push in TvP (haven't seen that one before) and popularized the fast upgrades turtle play in TvP. Flash brought about a lot of changes, so lets not discredit him either.
It's like how people credit fantasy with the whole mech revolution when Upmagic was making those builds demonstrably before him. There's specific credit to be had in taking an underused build and turning it into a complete metagame shift.
Forgot to credit Flash for the Strong FD lol, but what do you mean by "12nex bunker rush to a different extreme"? I think bunker rush->vulture was done before Flash, not sure though.
Same as above -- it had obviously been done before to some degree, but fine tuning and executing it the best presents innovation.
I guess it just comes down to opinion then, whether or not Bisu could rival Flash in terms of "peak play". I say that because he's shown so many holy god moments, like the famous mine defense against Flash, his multitasking defense against Baby on PR, his multi-location harassment ability, the ability to strike at perfect timings and defeat build order losses (in PvP), and the ability to comeback in disadvantaged situations w/ the perfect decisions (see vPure on PR, vGreat on Icarus for a couple of examples). In this regard, its subjective I guess so we can agree to disagree.
I understand where you're coming from, and feel free to just say "I disagree" after this, but "famous defense," "multitasking," "multi-location harass," and by far most specifically coming back from build order losses (or more specifically, bad situations) with perfectly timed attacks, ESPECIALLY in the mirror (TvT) -- doesn't this all sound like Flash last year? I mean you mentioned 2 specific games which I totally remember. Those are the games that make me understand and agree with Bisu fans sometimes, but Flash has literally DOZENS of those amazing comebacks against all races.
I know it's subjective, which is why I put that little clause at the beginning, but Flash seems to be everything you praise Bisu for taken to a greater extreme. The one thing I could faulter on is "multi-tasking," because that's really hard to quantify and point out sometimes, but everything else seems like what WON Flash his titles.
On February 21 2011 05:42 LunarC wrote: I think it's clear at this point that most of the people in this thread have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and are not bothered to do a little research or speak from adequate experience.
Ignore this post if you want, but all you are doing is furthering a pointless debate full of half-baked opinions based on an inadequate history of watching VODs, limited understanding of the game, and limited understanding of how progamers actually think and play.
Sooner or later somebody like ArvickHero who actually knows what he is talking about is going to come along and smack everyone.
Don't get butthurt now.
You're a troll. You literally came into this thread just to insult people who don't agree with you and then give singing praise to make yourself look like less of a tool. The lowest quality of posting. Atleast Arvick and I can have a conversation and debate about it, all you do is make shitty blanket statements and tell people not to get "butthurt." 4chan incarnate.
On February 21 2011 05:32 ArvickHero wrote: Alright, lets not get ahead of ourselves with what Flash invented. The Mass Tank was Midas's thing, and Bachanic Pushes predate Flash. As far as I know, Flash invented the MnM off-timing push for TvZ, the Goliath +1 armor timing push, the anit-carrier build and the tank-heavier Bachanic push in TvP (haven't seen that one before) and popularized the fast upgrades turtle play in TvP. Flash brought about a lot of changes, so lets not discredit him either.
It's like how people credit fantasy with the whole mech revolution when Upmagic was making those builds demonstrably before him. There's specific credit to be had in taking an underused build and turning it into a complete metagame shift.
Forgot to credit Flash for the Strong FD lol, but what do you mean by "12nex bunker rush to a different extreme"? I think bunker rush->vulture was done before Flash, not sure though.
Same as above -- it had obviously been done before to some degree, but fine tuning and executing it the best presents innovation.
Yea, but it was Fantasy and Midas who used it extensively before Flash, so there's no way you can't really credit the Mass Tanks transition to Flash. And I'm still not sure what you mean by that Bunker Rush to a different extreme (I think I'll check some old VODs if they still are up lol). Everything else listed Flash deserves proper credit for.
I guess it just comes down to opinion then, whether or not Bisu could rival Flash in terms of "peak play". I say that because he's shown so many holy god moments, like the famous mine defense against Flash, his multitasking defense against Baby on PR, his multi-location harassment ability, the ability to strike at perfect timings and defeat build order losses (in PvP), and the ability to comeback in disadvantaged situations w/ the perfect decisions (see vPure on PR, vGreat on Icarus for a couple of examples). In this regard, its subjective I guess so we can agree to disagree.
I understand where you're coming from, and feel free to just say "I disagree" after this, but "famous defense," "multitasking," "multi-location harass," and by far most specifically coming back from build order losses (or more specifically, bad situations) with perfectly timed attacks, ESPECIALLY in the mirror (TvT) -- doesn't this all sound like Flash last year? I mean you mentioned 2 specific games which I totally remember. Those are the games that make me understand and agree with Bisu fans sometimes, but Flash has literally DOZENS of those amazing comebacks against all races.
I know it's subjective, which is why I put that little clause at the beginning, but Flash seems to be everything you praise Bisu for taken to a greater extreme. The one thing I could faulter on is "multi-tasking," because that's really hard to quantify and point out sometimes, but everything else seems like what WON Flash his titles.
Again, I never said that Bisu was better than Flash, but he could rival him at his "peak play". Yes, Flash is a consistent beast, and he's shown off all those amazing skills over more games, but its because he's so damn consistent, as opposed to Bisu. And I wouldn't necessarily say to a greater extreme, but Flash definitely deserves his credit for his godly skills. I still maintain that, if these players were at their peaks playing against each other, Bisu would rival Flash (not necessarily "beat", but it'd be a hell of a close game)
Well I wouldn't say rival. Flash's peak TvP is undeniably better than Bisu's peak PvT, but that's just because of how they specialize in matchups in an odd way.
On February 21 2011 05:42 LunarC wrote: I think it's clear at this point that most of the people in this thread have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and are not bothered to do a little research or speak from adequate experience.
Ignore this post if you want, but all you are doing is furthering a pointless debate full of half-baked opinions based on an inadequate history of watching VODs, limited understanding of the game, and limited understanding of how progamers actually think and play.
Sooner or later somebody like ArvickHero who actually knows what he is talking about is going to come along and smack everyone.
Don't get butthurt now.
You're a troll. You literally came into this thread just to insult people who don't agree with you and then give singing praise to make yourself look like less of a tool. The lowest quality of posting. Atleast Arvick and I can have a conversation and debate about it, all you do is make shitty blanket statements and tell people not to get "butthurt." 4chan incarnate.
TwoToneTerran, calm down. Firstly, the OP is no longer relevant because it's using old data. Also, sorry for tending to not post walls of text. I usually try to keep what I say succinct. Hence, I make statements like "Bisu's playstyle feels fragile when compared to Flash's playstyle, but I think that at Bisu's peak, his dominance could rival that of Flash." Here's the important bit: Bisu is not as consistent of a player as Flash is. That's due to the nature of his playstyle, his own nature as a player, and the nature of his race.
This is my opinion, and I did not dismiss anyone else's opinion in the process. I think my opinion was valid, and it was founded upon understanding what "peak play" is, which you didn't seem to understand. If you cannot understand what is meant by "peak play" and dismiss it as being a "blanket term", you would naturally spurn an opinion based on the concept. I found that to be an ass-backwards reason for dismissing someone's opinion.
When I mentioned Arvick, I was merely giving an example of someone that I felt knew enough about what he was talking about to give a good opinion. I could have mentioned you instead, but I'm human and your reason for dismissing what I said irked me, so I didn't mention your name.
Also, threads that are founded upon hating on a particular player is just bait for thoughtless posting, which is what I was talking about when I said what I said. You yourself seem to be well-informed, so I didn't mean to insult you personally. It's just that bumping this thread just attracts more and more inane comments from uninformed people.
On February 20 2011 04:47 renzy wrote: All of you saying Bisu is going to drop 80 ELO points by May, you just wait. Bisu is going to return to what he was during the Golden Age of Protoss and go on a rampage and rape everyone. GO BISU!
Won't happen. I think the next season of maps will be a lot more balanced, and reward late-game oriented, defensive play. This would be better for the development of BW strategy.
Just wanted to say you're kind of spewing Bisu hate. While it's certainly possible that with the new maps Bisu will go down drastically in ELO I can calmly say that I don't think it's all that likely. "Imba maps" don't suddenly allow a player to catch fire and play like a freaking god. Bisu passed Jaedong in ELO. Granted, JD was slumping but still that's pretty huge. He's practically carrying SKT on his back in Winner's League picking up multiple kills in every game, sitting at the top of the list of most all-kills in SWL.
Do you honestly think this is all because of "imba" maps? Bisu has been looking strong in most of his games and honestly I think he could take Flash in a bo5 right now. Sure, I'd still favor Flash but I think Bisu could definitely eek out a win over him.
I hope that, after the new maps are released, if Bisu continues to play at such a high level you'll keep your word and rework your OP.
Tears of the Moon (forces P to adopt 1 base strategies) is also good.
You love to discredit Bisu talking about how he is only good on certain maps. Yet pre-slump, he was by far the best player on the most balanced map by stats, and he is more capable of overcoming imba than you give him credit for. Which maps would you even say are protoss favored? Aztec, the map that Bisu stomps on zergs on with 50/50 odds on the map(partially due to the presence of 2 top protoss and 1 declining top zerg)? Circuit breaker? Icarus, with no good P odds? Benzene, whose ZvP only slightly favors P(in large part due to the fact that JD doesn't play on the map while Bisu does)? Bloody Ridge, where protoss gets 2 atrocious MUs? La Mancha, which is exactly the same? Honestly, EotS and Aztec are the only 2 good P maps among a sea of non-P maps. I think you just want maps that give terrans/Flash a massive boost and make things insanely difficult for protoss/Bisu.
Lightwip, it's not about Protoss vs. Terran vs. Zerg. That's an artificial distinction. I would argue the biggest distinction between players is how they spend their time practicing. Do they spend it coming up with new strategies and theorizing on a proactive basis, or simply mass-gaming and taking other people's BOs? I'm sure it's a mix of both, but you and I can both agree that amongst progamers, there is definitely a distinction amongst this continuum. Stork vs. Bisu is a classic example; a better one would be Flash vs. Fantasy or Savior vs. Jaedong.
It's not about finding maps which are better for one race. It's about finding maps which suit a style of player. Does that make sense?
Yet the examples you give of maps that "advance BW strategy" (paraphrased) are disproportionately unfavorable for Protoss, and the one map you choose to highlight was infamous as one of the worst Protoss graveyards. This is in the midst of a thread created to attack a specific Protoss player. One in which, the OP happened to be egregiously wrong and yet you keep blundering on, hoping that that will retroactively cover up the egg on your face. All these factors don't give you the greatest credibility when you claim "it's not about P vs. T vs. Z, it's about the types of players", or whatever else.
If you want to see one base play so much, an abnormally high (rather than low, as in ToTM) number of mineral patches in the main should do it. Maybe even an extra gas, a la Desperado. If you want to see lots of lategame, defense-oriented play, take away the threat of early harass by making a ridiculously long push distance. How about the novel concept of every base besides the main, nat, and maybe a mineral only being an island expansion? (Obviously speaking of 2-player maps, as a 4-player map that technically fit this description wouldn't be that out of the ordinary.) Or a map with a wide, featureless, unbuildable center that takes up over half the total map area, with all expansions clustered around the edges? All of these features would affect the metagame, build orders, and encourage new strategies, definitely more so than the innovative genius that is only having seven mineral patches in the main. But you're welcome to try and argue that they wouldn't, which I suspect you will, because you can already feel that they won't produce the matchup statistics you want. Regardless of your arguing till you're blue in the face that you don't care about such things.
Edit: No, I'm not actually seriously clamoring for these types of maps, I recognize the unfairness and imbalances. Though, if they're going to give us another Roadrunner, I'd ask a map with an abnormally large main with an unbuildable ring about the edge as compensation.
On February 21 2011 05:42 LunarC wrote: I think it's clear at this point that most of the people in this thread have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and are not bothered to do a little research or speak from adequate experience.
Ignore this post if you want, but all you are doing is furthering a pointless debate full of half-baked opinions based on an inadequate history of watching VODs, limited understanding of the game, and limited understanding of how progamers actually think and play.
Sooner or later somebody like ArvickHero who actually knows what he is talking about is going to come along and smack everyone.
Don't get butthurt now.
You're a troll. You literally came into this thread just to insult people who don't agree with you and then give singing praise to make yourself look like less of a tool. The lowest quality of posting. Atleast Arvick and I can have a conversation and debate about it, all you do is make shitty blanket statements and tell people not to get "butthurt." 4chan incarnate.
TwoToneTerran, calm down. Firstly, the OP is no longer relevant because it's using old data. Also, sorry for tending to not post walls of text. I usually try to keep what I say succinct. Hence, I make statements like "Bisu's playstyle feels fragile when compared to Flash's playstyle, but I think that at Bisu's peak, his dominance could rival that of Flash." Here's the important bit: Bisu is not as consistent of a player as Flash is. That's due to the nature of his playstyle, his own nature as a player, and the nature of his race.
This is my opinion, and I did not dismiss anyone else's opinion in the process. I think my opinion was valid, and it was founded upon understanding what "peak play" is, which you didn't seem to understand. If you cannot understand what is meant by "peak play" and dismiss it as being a "blanket term", you would naturally spurn an opinion based on the concept. I found that to be an ass-backwards reason for dismissing someone's opinion.
When I mentioned Arvick, I was merely giving an example of someone that I felt knew enough about what he was talking about to give a good opinion. I could have mentioned you instead, but I'm human and your reason for dismissing what I said irked me, so I didn't mention your name.
Also, threads that are founded upon hating on a particular player is just bait for thoughtless posting, which is what I was talking about when I said what I said. You yourself seem to be well-informed, so I didn't mean to insult you personally. It's just that bumping this thread just attracts more and more inane comments from uninformed people.
If you have an opinion, then state it respectfully and thoughtfully. Don't open your post with an unambiguous insult and then point to your champion to "come along and smack everyone." There's no point in opening a post the way you did and then champion someone like they're the only right one in a very subjective conversation. You can't tell me your post added anything to the thread, can you? I mean I'm cool with complimenting arvick, he's a cool dude, but not at the expense of insulting, in your own words, everyone in the process.
I'm just saying, that post of yours was the exact same bad posting you're decrying yourself.
I like the way ArvickHero quotes that Bisu game against Pure on PR when that game had Bisu end up in said disadvantageous position by getting out multitasked by Pure.
Yes Bisu had a really good performance in proleague, but we noticed that his performance in individual leagues was sub-par. The difference between Flash/Jaedong and Bisu is that Jaedong/Flash put up consistent performances in PL and make decent placement in individual leagues (if not winning them). If Bisu can't make it to at least the Top 8 in this MSL, then he certainly won't be deserving of "player of the year" award (not to say that he completely deserves it should he make it to the ro8).
I don't mean to be this critical of Bisu, but PL results are just one part of the big picture, imo.
Bisu's a great player, it's when his fan club start screaming that he's "TEH BEST PLAYER EVER" and insulting everyone who doesn't agree with him that I get annoyed.
Is he a great player? yes. Is he a Proleague monster? absolutely holy shit yes. Does he deserve player of the year? Probably not, I think Flash deserves it more, but I could still see him winning it, and I wouldn't be upset over it.
TL really needs to get over their Bisu obsession/hatred. Unfortunately, that's not gonna happen until he stops being so damn sexy :3
On August 05 2011 13:23 Turbovolver wrote: I like the way ArvickHero quotes that Bisu game against Pure on PR when that game had Bisu end up in said disadvantageous position by getting out multitasked by Pure.
Yeah, lol.
[/shameless antifan]
Flash has been out-multitasked on several occasions, but has also been able to make comebacks by striking at the perfect moments. So Flash sux too?
And I'd be flabbergasted if Flash somehow didn't get player of the year award. Bisu tore it up in Proleague, but Flash tore it up in PL and Individuals, not too hard to choose..
Also question, who won the Player of the Year award in 07 and 08? Can't find any concrete sources ;;;
On November 04 2010 14:05 Sillylaughs wrote: From the kespa website, I guess 2005 was when they first introduced it 2005 = iloveoov (july was the zerg of the year) (awarded 2006/3/10) 2006 = savior (awarded 2007/3/8) 2007 = jaedong (awarded 2008/3/19) 2008 = missing?? 2009 = jaedong (awarded 2008/12/9)
OK, I was going off here for Jaedong, says he won in Dec 2009, first player to win a second year in a row (indicating he won 08). July from here but could be another award.
I can clarify this, there actually wasn't a player of the year award in 2008, hence Jaedong's 2007 and 2009 award were consecutive.
On August 05 2011 19:03 ImbaTosS wrote: I think Bisu setting the new PL record is pretty remarkable, considering that people were debating whether he was finished not too long ago!
I am not saying that Bisu is playing badly right now. But this is very misleading since the format of proleague was changed this year. Therefore, it is very difficult to compare this year to the previoust years.
On August 05 2011 13:39 blahman3344 wrote: I'm saying this as a Bisu fan:
Yes Bisu had a really good performance in proleague, but we noticed that his performance in individual leagues was sub-par. The difference between Flash/Jaedong and Bisu is that Jaedong/Flash put up consistent performances in PL and make decent placement in individual leagues (if not winning them). If Bisu can't make it to at least the Top 8 in this MSL, then he certainly won't be deserving of "player of the year" award (not to say that he completely deserves it should he make it to the ro8).
I don't mean to be this critical of Bisu, but PL results are just one part of the big picture, imo.
Look at the individual leagues.
Every protoss on the scene has the same problem. Every single one of them. Good performance in proleague, but abysmal in individual leagues. I think this is symptomatic of the deeper problem : that protoss gains less through preparation and advance knowledge of enemy than other races do, hence their inability to compete in environment that focuses on those two factors(aka individual leagues).
Calm also touched on this. He said he gains a LOT from advance knowledge and preparation which hasnt lately been possible in proleague due to no advance player lists, thus confirming the hypothesis of protoss superiority in such conditions.
Im sorry. I am not ashamed that I am part of the Bisu obsession fan club. I named my WoW charc in the past MarryMeBisu. And one day I will walk down that aisle with him.
On August 05 2011 13:39 blahman3344 wrote: I'm saying this as a Bisu fan:
Yes Bisu had a really good performance in proleague, but we noticed that his performance in individual leagues was sub-par. The difference between Flash/Jaedong and Bisu is that Jaedong/Flash put up consistent performances in PL and make decent placement in individual leagues (if not winning them). If Bisu can't make it to at least the Top 8 in this MSL, then he certainly won't be deserving of "player of the year" award (not to say that he completely deserves it should he make it to the ro8).
I don't mean to be this critical of Bisu, but PL results are just one part of the big picture, imo.
Look at the individual leagues.
Every protoss on the scene has the same problem. Every single one of them. Good performance in proleague, but abysmal in individual leagues. I think this is symptomatic of the deeper problem : that protoss gains less through preparation and advance knowledge of enemy than other races do, hence their inability to compete in environment that focuses on those two factors(aka individual leagues).
Calm also touched on this. He said he gains a LOT from advance knowledge and preparation which hasnt lately been possible in proleague due to no advance player lists, thus confirming the hypothesis of protoss superiority in such conditions.
On August 05 2011 19:03 ImbaTosS wrote: I think Bisu setting the new PL record is pretty remarkable, considering that people were debating whether he was finished not too long ago!
I am not saying that Bisu is playing badly right now. But this is very misleading since the format of proleague was changed this year. Therefore, it is very difficult to compare this year to the previoust years.
The change in format makes no difference. I explained why in a different post.
On August 05 2011 13:39 blahman3344 wrote: I'm saying this as a Bisu fan:
Yes Bisu had a really good performance in proleague, but we noticed that his performance in individual leagues was sub-par. The difference between Flash/Jaedong and Bisu is that Jaedong/Flash put up consistent performances in PL and make decent placement in individual leagues (if not winning them). If Bisu can't make it to at least the Top 8 in this MSL, then he certainly won't be deserving of "player of the year" award (not to say that he completely deserves it should he make it to the ro8).
I don't mean to be this critical of Bisu, but PL results are just one part of the big picture, imo.
Look at the individual leagues.
Every protoss on the scene has the same problem. Every single one of them. Good performance in proleague, but abysmal in individual leagues. I think this is symptomatic of the deeper problem : that protoss gains less through preparation and advance knowledge of enemy than other races do, hence their inability to compete in environment that focuses on those two factors(aka individual leagues).
Calm also touched on this. He said he gains a LOT from advance knowledge and preparation which hasnt lately been possible in proleague due to no advance player lists, thus confirming the hypothesis of protoss superiority in such conditions.
Yeah I have thought that this was the case also, No individual league wins for protoss since 2008, but always doing well in proleague. the deeper Individual leagues go the more time one has to prepare for their specific opponent on specific maps, and at the box set preparation point in the tournaments protoss players have been dropping out like flies.
On August 06 2011 01:48 kellymilkies wrote: Im sorry. I am not ashamed that I am part of the Bisu obsession fan club. I named my WoW charc in the past MarryMeBisu. And one day I will walk down that aisle with him.
I love you Bisu. XoxoxOXoXoXoXoxo
I'm glad that at least there are SOME representatives of Starcraft 2 with their heads on the right way around :{}
Bisu All Sweep tomorrow you heard it here first I'll say it FFS
On August 06 2011 01:48 kellymilkies wrote: Im sorry. I am not ashamed that I am part of the Bisu obsession fan club. I named my WoW charc in the past MarryMeBisu. And one day I will walk down that aisle with him.
On August 06 2011 05:35 Crisium wrote: Kespa, MSL, and OSL are all biased against Protoss. I guess they think PvP is the worst mirror matchup or something.
Protoss mirror matchups are always great on Protoss maps. Polaris, Central Plains, and Loki are all maps on which some of the best PvP's in history occurred on. PvP's are only bad on maps which are bad for Protoss. No reason for them to hate on the best mirror matchup. Happy birthday!
Woah... I just found out that Bisu's ELO rank 1 right now!!! Haha... but looking at the ELO list, I was kinda bummed about Jaedong... Now someone needs to write something like this about Jaedong, so Jaedong can revive and tear things apart~ Hopefully this current MSL won't be canceled so Bisu can win another MSL!!!! GOGOGO BISU!!!!!!! LONG LIVE BW!!!!!
On August 06 2011 05:35 Crisium wrote: Kespa, MSL, and OSL are all biased against Protoss. I guess they think PvP is the worst mirror matchup or something.
Protoss mirror matchups are always great on Protoss maps. Polaris, Central Plains, and Loki are all maps on which some of the best PvP's in history occurred on. PvP's are only bad on maps which are bad for Protoss. No reason for them to hate on the best mirror matchup. Happy birthday!
On August 06 2011 05:35 Crisium wrote: Kespa, MSL, and OSL are all biased against Protoss. I guess they think PvP is the worst mirror matchup or something.
Protoss mirror matchups are always great on Protoss maps. Polaris, Central Plains, and Loki are all maps on which some of the best PvP's in history occurred on. PvP's are only bad on maps which are bad for Protoss. No reason for them to hate on the best mirror matchup. Happy birthday!
yea, well, that's just like, you're opinion man
You'd probably agree when I say PvP, for the most part, consistently provides large, exciting battles and tense moments.
On September 13 2011 12:52 Bisu-Fan wrote: Woah... I just found out that Bisu's ELO rank 1 right now!!! Haha... but looking at the ELO list, I was kinda bummed about Jaedong... Now someone needs to write something like this about Jaedong, so Jaedong can revive and tear things apart~ Hopefully this current MSL won't be canceled so Bisu can win another MSL!!!! GOGOGO BISU!!!!!!! LONG LIVE BW!!!!!
In this exhibit, we find the very rare creature: the simultaneous Bisu and Jaedong fan! Since the debut of both these players, it was thought that the simultaneous fan was just a legend, passed down through the ages. No documented sightings of such a creature could be verified. It was not until the 4th of January, 2010 when this fan proudly stepped into the light to verify his existence to the rest of Team Liquid. flamewheel and disciple were immediately baffled by the appearance. flamewheel proceeded to take a 2 month long hiatus as he reflected upon the meaning of his existence, and disciple cursed off watching BW and switched to wc3, where fans stay loyal to the players (it would not be for another month when he would be persuaded to switch back to bw reporting). An exotic creature indeed, and to this day it is still unknown how many exist. Scientists are attempting plan after plan in an attempt to find more of these creatures to possibly save this race.
not really I find it slow and boring mostly. There are afew epic PvPs but most of the ones I've seen end early game with one guy who has a couple more dragoons than the other.
On September 13 2011 12:52 Bisu-Fan wrote: Woah... I just found out that Bisu's ELO rank 1 right now!!! Haha... but looking at the ELO list, I was kinda bummed about Jaedong... Now someone needs to write something like this about Jaedong, so Jaedong can revive and tear things apart~ Hopefully this current MSL won't be canceled so Bisu can win another MSL!!!! GOGOGO BISU!!!!!!! LONG LIVE BW!!!!!
In this exhibit, we find the very rare creature: the simultaneous Bisu and Jaedong fan! Since the debut of both these players, it was thought that the simultaneous fan was just a legend, passed down through the ages. No documented sightings of such a creature could be verified. It was not until the 4th of January, 2010 when this fan proudly stepped into the light to verify his existence to the rest of Team Liquid. flamewheel and disciple were immediately baffled by the appearance. flamewheel proceeded to take a 2 month long hiatus as he reflected upon the meaning of his existence, and disciple cursed off watching BW and switched to wc3, where fans stay loyal to the players (it would not be for another month when he would be persuaded to switch back to bw reporting). An exotic creature indeed, and to this day it is still unknown how many exist. Scientists are attempting plan after plan in an attempt to find more of these creatures to possibly save this race.
Haha they aren't so rare :D There are different levels of fandom. I think some people here would marry Bisu, worship Flash, play ball with Jaedong, and drink beer with Stork.
On September 13 2011 12:52 Bisu-Fan wrote: Woah... I just found out that Bisu's ELO rank 1 right now!!! Haha... but looking at the ELO list, I was kinda bummed about Jaedong... Now someone needs to write something like this about Jaedong, so Jaedong can revive and tear things apart~ Hopefully this current MSL won't be canceled so Bisu can win another MSL!!!! GOGOGO BISU!!!!!!! LONG LIVE BW!!!!!
In this exhibit, we find the very rare creature: the simultaneous Bisu and Jaedong fan! Since the debut of both these players, it was thought that the simultaneous fan was just a legend, passed down through the ages. No documented sightings of such a creature could be verified. It was not until the 4th of January, 2010 when this fan proudly stepped into the light to verify his existence to the rest of Team Liquid. flamewheel and disciple were immediately baffled by the appearance. flamewheel proceeded to take a 2 month long hiatus as he reflected upon the meaning of his existence, and disciple cursed off watching BW and switched to wc3, where fans stay loyal to the players (it would not be for another month when he would be persuaded to switch back to bw reporting). An exotic creature indeed, and to this day it is still unknown how many exist. Scientists are attempting plan after plan in an attempt to find more of these creatures to possibly save this race.
Haha they aren't so rare :D There are different levels of fandom. I think some people here would marry Bisu, worship Flash, play ball with Jaedong, and drink beer with Stork.
I'm a Bisu/Jaedong fan myself, so I thought that was kinda weird loool, i would think its Bisu/Flash fans who would be a lot more rare haha
On August 06 2011 05:35 Crisium wrote: Kespa, MSL, and OSL are all biased against Protoss. I guess they think PvP is the worst mirror matchup or something.
Protoss mirror matchups are always great on Protoss maps. Polaris, Central Plains, and Loki are all maps on which some of the best PvP's in history occurred on. PvP's are only bad on maps which are bad for Protoss. No reason for them to hate on the best mirror matchup. Happy birthday!
yea, well, that's just like, you're opinion man
You'd probably agree when I say PvP, for the most part, consistently provides large, exciting battles and tense moments.
PvPs can occasionally provide great games (especially if there's storm drops!!) but usually it's just armies hanging out, four dragoons and an obs denying all shuttle harass, and taking expos whenever your gates leave 400 mins. Personal opinion, of course, but I find PvP a camp fest while ZvZ is exciting because everything and anything counts and TvT is long but action packed.
On September 13 2011 12:52 Bisu-Fan wrote: Woah... I just found out that Bisu's ELO rank 1 right now!!! Haha... but looking at the ELO list, I was kinda bummed about Jaedong... Now someone needs to write something like this about Jaedong, so Jaedong can revive and tear things apart~ Hopefully this current MSL won't be canceled so Bisu can win another MSL!!!! GOGOGO BISU!!!!!!! LONG LIVE BW!!!!!
In this exhibit, we find the very rare creature: the simultaneous Bisu and Jaedong fan! Since the debut of both these players, it was thought that the simultaneous fan was just a legend, passed down through the ages. No documented sightings of such a creature could be verified. It was not until the 4th of January, 2010 when this fan proudly stepped into the light to verify his existence to the rest of Team Liquid. flamewheel and disciple were immediately baffled by the appearance. flamewheel proceeded to take a 2 month long hiatus as he reflected upon the meaning of his existence, and disciple cursed off watching BW and switched to wc3, where fans stay loyal to the players (it would not be for another month when he would be persuaded to switch back to bw reporting). An exotic creature indeed, and to this day it is still unknown how many exist. Scientists are attempting plan after plan in an attempt to find more of these creatures to possibly save this race.
Haha they aren't so rare :D There are different levels of fandom. I think some people here would marry Bisu, worship Flash, play ball with Jaedong, and drink beer with Stork.
I'm a Bisu/Jaedong fan myself, so I thought that was kinda weird loool, i would think its Bisu/Flash fans who would be a lot more rare haha
Oh it's possible. For instance, I'm a fan of Flash as long as Bisu, Stork, Jangbi (or really any protoss player), Jaedong, and Fantasy aren't playing against him Ok, so I guess that's narrowing it down quite a bit.
On September 13 2011 12:52 Bisu-Fan wrote: Woah... I just found out that Bisu's ELO rank 1 right now!!! Haha... but looking at the ELO list, I was kinda bummed about Jaedong... Now someone needs to write something like this about Jaedong, so Jaedong can revive and tear things apart~ Hopefully this current MSL won't be canceled so Bisu can win another MSL!!!! GOGOGO BISU!!!!!!! LONG LIVE BW!!!!!
In this exhibit, we find the very rare creature: the simultaneous Bisu and Jaedong fan! Since the debut of both these players, it was thought that the simultaneous fan was just a legend, passed down through the ages. No documented sightings of such a creature could be verified. It was not until the 4th of January, 2010 when this fan proudly stepped into the light to verify his existence to the rest of Team Liquid. flamewheel and disciple were immediately baffled by the appearance. flamewheel proceeded to take a 2 month long hiatus as he reflected upon the meaning of his existence, and disciple cursed off watching BW and switched to wc3, where fans stay loyal to the players (it would not be for another month when he would be persuaded to switch back to bw reporting). An exotic creature indeed, and to this day it is still unknown how many exist. Scientists are attempting plan after plan in an attempt to find more of these creatures to possibly save this race.
Is it that rare? I dont watch as often anymore, but I always cheered for both JD and Bisu when I watched. Even when they were playing against each other id be happy if either won as long as the other put up a tremendous fight
On September 13 2011 12:52 Bisu-Fan wrote: Woah... I just found out that Bisu's ELO rank 1 right now!!! Haha... but looking at the ELO list, I was kinda bummed about Jaedong... Now someone needs to write something like this about Jaedong, so Jaedong can revive and tear things apart~ Hopefully this current MSL won't be canceled so Bisu can win another MSL!!!! GOGOGO BISU!!!!!!! LONG LIVE BW!!!!!
In this exhibit, we find the very rare creature: the simultaneous Bisu and Jaedong fan! Since the debut of both these players, it was thought that the simultaneous fan was just a legend, passed down through the ages. No documented sightings of such a creature could be verified. It was not until the 4th of January, 2010 when this fan proudly stepped into the light to verify his existence to the rest of Team Liquid. flamewheel and disciple were immediately baffled by the appearance. flamewheel proceeded to take a 2 month long hiatus as he reflected upon the meaning of his existence, and disciple cursed off watching BW and switched to wc3, where fans stay loyal to the players (it would not be for another month when he would be persuaded to switch back to bw reporting). An exotic creature indeed, and to this day it is still unknown how many exist. Scientists are attempting plan after plan in an attempt to find more of these creatures to possibly save this race.
Is it that rare? I dont watch as often anymore, but I always cheered for both JD and Bisu when I watched. Even when they were playing against each other id be happy if either won as long as the other put up a tremendous fight
I feel this trend is less about Jaedong fans specificly, and more Zerg players in general that find it hard to like Bisu. I would love to like Bisu, sure his style is exciting to watch...but he single-handedly turned ZvP metagame into living hell multiple times. Why ya gotta be like that Bisu?
(edit: now Savior fans liking Bisu.....thats gotta be pretty damned rare)
What i dont understand is all the Bisu fans i know hating on other tosses.
On August 19 2010 16:01 Nightmarjoo wrote: I'm sure Bisu will come back just like Savior was gonna come back and destroy everyone, don't worry guys.
Fail troll is Fail. On topic: interesting numbers u got there OP. Bisu is gone indeed, according to ur logic tho. That doesnt mean hes gone for realz ^^ ... just saying.
On September 13 2011 20:02 sabas123 wrote: omfg i dont get this post, we all know if he yust won the msl final he was a bonja (you can check0
errr...this post was made over a year ago, when Bisu showed somewhat solid results in SPL playoffs, but lost in the final to stats, so there was debate over whether or not Bisu was "good" at that point in time and whether he can be "good" again, so the OP is kind of irrelevant now.
Also the term "bonjwa" is reserved for someone who has proven themselves to be a dominant force in the BW scene, which generally means winning 3 OSLs in the course of a year. Bisu has yet to win an OSL. =(
On September 13 2011 12:52 Bisu-Fan wrote: Woah... I just found out that Bisu's ELO rank 1 right now!!! Haha... but looking at the ELO list, I was kinda bummed about Jaedong... Now someone needs to write something like this about Jaedong, so Jaedong can revive and tear things apart~ Hopefully this current MSL won't be canceled so Bisu can win another MSL!!!! GOGOGO BISU!!!!!!! LONG LIVE BW!!!!!
In this exhibit, we find the very rare creature: the simultaneous Bisu and Jaedong fan! Since the debut of both these players, it was thought that the simultaneous fan was just a legend, passed down through the ages. No documented sightings of such a creature could be verified. It was not until the 4th of January, 2010 when this fan proudly stepped into the light to verify his existence to the rest of Team Liquid. flamewheel and disciple were immediately baffled by the appearance. flamewheel proceeded to take a 2 month long hiatus as he reflected upon the meaning of his existence, and disciple cursed off watching BW and switched to wc3, where fans stay loyal to the players (it would not be for another month when he would be persuaded to switch back to bw reporting). An exotic creature indeed, and to this day it is still unknown how many exist. Scientists are attempting plan after plan in an attempt to find more of these creatures to possibly save this race.
Haha they aren't so rare :D There are different levels of fandom. I think some people here would marry Bisu, worship Flash, play ball with Jaedong, and drink beer with Stork.
I'm a Bisu/Jaedong fan myself, so I thought that was kinda weird loool, i would think its Bisu/Flash fans who would be a lot more rare haha
I'm a Bisu/Flash/Jaedong fan. Just knowing either of them wins a game/title/award/whatever gives me the greatest boner of all time feeling of happiness.
On September 13 2011 20:02 sabas123 wrote: omfg i dont get this post, we all know if he yust won the msl final he was a bonja (you can check0
errr...this post was made over a year ago, when Bisu showed somewhat solid results in SPL playoffs, but lost in the final to stats, so there was debate over whether or not Bisu was "good" at that point in time and whether he can be "good" again, so the OP is kind of irrelevant now.
Also the term "bonjwa" is reserved for someone who has proven themselves to be a dominant force in the BW scene, which generally means winning 3 Starleagues (msl or osl) within the course of a year. Bisu was close to getting that, but lost to mind in his 3rd consecutive msl final.
Damn his runs been really impressive since the new proleague started, I knew he'd be back. So much hate on him during this time. Glad I stayed with him during the hard times.
Can't wait till he makes everyone shut the fuck up about the OSL and MSL problems too. If he keeps working hard its only a matter of time.
On September 13 2011 23:59 Nick_54 wrote: Damn his runs been really impressive since the new proleague started, I knew he'd be back. So much hate on him during this time. Glad I stayed with him during the hard times.
Can't wait till he makes everyone shut the fuck up about the OSL and MSL problems too. If he keeps working hard its only a matter of time.
Better do it soon, he's getting past the prime age to win an SL. After that it's all downhill...
On September 13 2011 20:02 sabas123 wrote: omfg i dont get this post, we all know if he yust won the msl final he was a bonja (you can check0
errr...this post was made over a year ago, when Bisu showed somewhat solid results in SPL playoffs, but lost in the final to stats, so there was debate over whether or not Bisu was "good" at that point in time and whether he can be "good" again, so the OP is kind of irrelevant now.
Also the term "bonjwa" is reserved for someone who has proven themselves to be a dominant force in the BW scene, which generally means winning 3 OSLs in the course of a year. Bisu has yet to win an OSL. =(
edit: thanks to Harem for correcting me.
lol, even with Harem correcting you, you still got it wrong. 3 OSLs in 1 year? The term "bonjwa" was invented for Savior back when he was dominating, and he only won a single OSL. He had 3 MSLs, and 1 OSL.
On September 13 2011 12:52 Bisu-Fan wrote: Woah... I just found out that Bisu's ELO rank 1 right now!!! Haha... but looking at the ELO list, I was kinda bummed about Jaedong... Now someone needs to write something like this about Jaedong, so Jaedong can revive and tear things apart~ Hopefully this current MSL won't be canceled so Bisu can win another MSL!!!! GOGOGO BISU!!!!!!! LONG LIVE BW!!!!!
In this exhibit, we find the very rare creature: the simultaneous Bisu and Jaedong fan! Since the debut of both these players, it was thought that the simultaneous fan was just a legend, passed down through the ages. No documented sightings of such a creature could be verified. It was not until the 4th of January, 2010 when this fan proudly stepped into the light to verify his existence to the rest of Team Liquid. flamewheel and disciple were immediately baffled by the appearance. flamewheel proceeded to take a 2 month long hiatus as he reflected upon the meaning of his existence, and disciple cursed off watching BW and switched to wc3, where fans stay loyal to the players (it would not be for another month when he would be persuaded to switch back to bw reporting). An exotic creature indeed, and to this day it is still unknown how many exist. Scientists are attempting plan after plan in an attempt to find more of these creatures to possibly save this race.
Is it that rare? I dont watch as often anymore, but I always cheered for both JD and Bisu when I watched. Even when they were playing against each other id be happy if either won as long as the other put up a tremendous fight
I feel this trend is less about Jaedong fans specificly, and more Zerg players in general that find it hard to like Bisu. I would love to like Bisu, sure his style is exciting to watch...but he single-handedly turned ZvP metagame into living hell multiple times. Why ya gotta be like that Bisu?
(edit: now Savior fans liking Bisu.....thats gotta be pretty damned rare)
What i dont understand is all the Bisu fans i know hating on other tosses.
PvZ never even dropped below 50% winrate for Zerg...
On September 13 2011 12:52 Bisu-Fan wrote: Woah... I just found out that Bisu's ELO rank 1 right now!!! Haha... but looking at the ELO list, I was kinda bummed about Jaedong... Now someone needs to write something like this about Jaedong, so Jaedong can revive and tear things apart~ Hopefully this current MSL won't be canceled so Bisu can win another MSL!!!! GOGOGO BISU!!!!!!! LONG LIVE BW!!!!!
In this exhibit, we find the very rare creature: the simultaneous Bisu and Jaedong fan! Since the debut of both these players, it was thought that the simultaneous fan was just a legend, passed down through the ages. No documented sightings of such a creature could be verified. It was not until the 4th of January, 2010 when this fan proudly stepped into the light to verify his existence to the rest of Team Liquid. flamewheel and disciple were immediately baffled by the appearance. flamewheel proceeded to take a 2 month long hiatus as he reflected upon the meaning of his existence, and disciple cursed off watching BW and switched to wc3, where fans stay loyal to the players (it would not be for another month when he would be persuaded to switch back to bw reporting). An exotic creature indeed, and to this day it is still unknown how many exist. Scientists are attempting plan after plan in an attempt to find more of these creatures to possibly save this race.
Hehe... Yeah... Everyone else right here is saying how they are Bisu/Jaedong/Flash/Jangbi fans... I'm like diehard these two take priorities over everything else... Only when Bisu is playing Jaedong will I cheer for Bisu... I'm an SKT fan, but I cheer for Jaedong when he plays against any SKT player excluding Bisu~ So hopefully, Jaedong will resurge like Bisu did~
On September 13 2011 23:59 Nick_54 wrote: Damn his runs been really impressive since the new proleague started, I knew he'd be back. So much hate on him during this time. Glad I stayed with him during the hard times.
Can't wait till he makes everyone shut the fuck up about the OSL and MSL problems too. If he keeps working hard its only a matter of time.
Better do it soon, he's getting past the prime age to win an SL. After that it's all downhill...
I don't think this applys for anyone who debuted post 2005/6. As these are the players who have pretty much peaked mechanically so a 25 year old Bisu would not have the same troubles as a 25 year old Boxer.
Edit: Jangbi is kinda case in point. 3 time runner up in 2008/9 then disappeared off the face of the earth for 2 years and now the fall of 2011 he is again at least runner up as if those 2 whole years never happened.
EPT
).
![[image loading]](http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/1159/asas04.jpg)
hahaha, great post![[image loading]](http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/125/bisu.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/192.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://files.sharenator.com/haters_RE_Haters_Gonna_Hate-s526x350-62877-580.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://dotallyrad.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/bisu.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6mXk4.jpg)
