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On February 20 2011 21:21 TwoToneTerran wrote:
If you want to talk GOAT, though, it will take Jaedong or Flash winning 2 more titles. Until then, Nada's still the GOAT.
It's not NaDa's title count that makes him GOAT...
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On February 20 2011 20:34 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote:
yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play. + Show Spoiler +You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results.
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
If you don't understand the concept of "peak play," that's your own fault, not ours. Plus, close this thread. The OP is outdated, shortsighted, and ridiculous.
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On February 21 2011 01:21 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 21:21 TwoToneTerran wrote:
If you want to talk GOAT, though, it will take Jaedong or Flash winning 2 more titles. Until then, Nada's still the GOAT. It's not NaDa's title count that makes him GOAT...
Yeah it is, all anyone cares about is titles. I know you've been around for years and you want to instill that Nada will never be passed up as a player in achievements, but I don't think rose tint should overcome raw results in winning major titles. (Unless you want to go back and count all those tournaments nada won that are no longer ran anymore and that Flash and Jaedong have no chance to win, otherwise we might as well toss around GSL wins or something)
I expect you to throw out a very well written post about how Nada overcame something and his "Being in the top 30," thing, but that's like saying "No one will ever be greater than Nada until we have another 10 years of broodwar so Flash and Jaedong can be in the top 10 for x amount of years." It's so arbitrary when the metric of how often they win titles is a lot more concise. If Jaedong or Flash win 7 titles in the time it took Nada to win 4 then I don't see how they're not greater players.
On February 21 2011 01:31 LunarC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 20:34 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote:
yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play. + Show Spoiler +You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results.
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias. If you don't understand the concept of "peak play," that's your own fault, not ours. Plus, close this thread. The OP is outdated, shortsighted, and ridiculous.
The concept of "peak play" is vague as hell already, the best definition I could give it is how "amazingly" someone plays and dominates their peers with. Unless you have a different definition, there's no way anyone's beaten Flash in that category yet since he set a new standard for that just last year. Unless "peak play" means "how good someone plays protoss."
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On February 20 2011 21:21 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 21:05 Lightwip wrote:On February 20 2011 20:34 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote:
yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play. You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results. Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias. You seem to think that it is absolutely outrageous to think that Flash isn't the GOATest GOAT ever. I'd say his career is still less successful than oov's or Nada's. Nada has every achievement that Flash has, except more Kespa rank placement and 1 more title. Oov has his 'undefeated in finals' record. Boxer arguably had a better career too despite only having 3 titles. I'd say overall Bisu has the better career if he ever wins a dual title. Regardless of whether or not he does, it's certainly reasonable to compare peaks. You are not without bias yourself. I literally never used the GOAT term. This was all about peak play and there's absolutely no way the old bonjwas are even as good as the average A-Teamer's peak play right now. This is a complete strawman through and through. You address something I never came close to mentioning just to defend the side of the argument you like. Bisu is an amazing player, quite possibly the greatest protoss ever, but there's practically no excuse to say his peak play matches Flash's. Bisu was "almost" a bonjwa like 3 years ago. Flash WAS crowned bonjwa three months ago, I just don't see how you can take this stance. If you want to talk GOAT, though, it will take Jaedong or Flash winning 2 more titles. Until then, Nada's still the GOAT.
Really? then what is this line?
Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias.
That sounds like you think that the two are not comparable, when they are. Why is it outrageous to compare peaks? Because one has more titles? That can easily change. Bisu has been around for longer, so if he won a dual right now I'd say his career might just be better. By no means is it something you cannot compare.
And no, the bonjwas wouldn't be able to beat A-teamers consistently nowadays. But I'm also sure that if Flash started out in Oov's/Nada's time, he would've still had trouble with the bonjwas because back then, they had something that no one else had, and something no one else would have for years. It's like comparing a 2nd world country of today with the Roman Empire, which really is not a fair comparison at all.
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On February 21 2011 01:56 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 21:21 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 20 2011 21:05 Lightwip wrote:On February 20 2011 20:34 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote:
yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play. You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results. Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias. You seem to think that it is absolutely outrageous to think that Flash isn't the GOATest GOAT ever. I'd say his career is still less successful than oov's or Nada's. Nada has every achievement that Flash has, except more Kespa rank placement and 1 more title. Oov has his 'undefeated in finals' record. Boxer arguably had a better career too despite only having 3 titles. I'd say overall Bisu has the better career if he ever wins a dual title. Regardless of whether or not he does, it's certainly reasonable to compare peaks. You are not without bias yourself. I literally never used the GOAT term. This was all about peak play and there's absolutely no way the old bonjwas are even as good as the average A-Teamer's peak play right now. This is a complete strawman through and through. You address something I never came close to mentioning just to defend the side of the argument you like. Bisu is an amazing player, quite possibly the greatest protoss ever, but there's practically no excuse to say his peak play matches Flash's. Bisu was "almost" a bonjwa like 3 years ago. Flash WAS crowned bonjwa three months ago, I just don't see how you can take this stance. If you want to talk GOAT, though, it will take Jaedong or Flash winning 2 more titles. Until then, Nada's still the GOAT. Really? then what is this line? Show nested quote +Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias. That sounds like you think that the two are not comparable, when they are. Why is it outrageous to compare peaks? Because one has more titles? That can easily change. Bisu has been around for longer, so if he won a dual right now I'd say his career might just be better. By no means is it something you cannot compare.
That line had nothing to do with him being the greatest of all time? It specifically said he had the greatest peak -- the double title win 2 weeks apart (The hardest part being winning Bo5s in the MSL finals and OSL semifinals just a few days apart).
That said, lol, come on man. "If Bisu wins doubles titles his career might just be better," That's such a huge if, what the hell? We're not talking about the very unlikely future. You know what, if Bisu wins doubles titles and kicks just as much ass as Flash, anytime in the future, I will cede that he has the highest peak of any progamer. WHEN he does that. Until then could you atleast do me the favor of saying, atleast for now, Flash had the highest peak last year?
And no, the bonjwas wouldn't be able to beat A-teamers consistently nowadays. But I'm also sure that if Flash started out in Oov's/Nada's time, he would've still had trouble with the bonjwas because back then, they had something that no one else had, and something no one else would have for years. It's like comparing a 2nd world country of today with the Roman Empire, which really is not a fair comparison at all.
Yeah, but when we're talking about peak play, that's just how it falls. It might not be fair to ancient romans that we have guns, but that still makes us much better than them at killing things.
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On February 21 2011 02:22 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 01:56 Lightwip wrote:On February 20 2011 21:21 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 20 2011 21:05 Lightwip wrote:On February 20 2011 20:34 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote:
yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play. You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results. Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias. You seem to think that it is absolutely outrageous to think that Flash isn't the GOATest GOAT ever. I'd say his career is still less successful than oov's or Nada's. Nada has every achievement that Flash has, except more Kespa rank placement and 1 more title. Oov has his 'undefeated in finals' record. Boxer arguably had a better career too despite only having 3 titles. I'd say overall Bisu has the better career if he ever wins a dual title. Regardless of whether or not he does, it's certainly reasonable to compare peaks. You are not without bias yourself. I literally never used the GOAT term. This was all about peak play and there's absolutely no way the old bonjwas are even as good as the average A-Teamer's peak play right now. This is a complete strawman through and through. You address something I never came close to mentioning just to defend the side of the argument you like. Bisu is an amazing player, quite possibly the greatest protoss ever, but there's practically no excuse to say his peak play matches Flash's. Bisu was "almost" a bonjwa like 3 years ago. Flash WAS crowned bonjwa three months ago, I just don't see how you can take this stance. If you want to talk GOAT, though, it will take Jaedong or Flash winning 2 more titles. Until then, Nada's still the GOAT. Really? then what is this line? Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias. That sounds like you think that the two are not comparable, when they are. Why is it outrageous to compare peaks? Because one has more titles? That can easily change. Bisu has been around for longer, so if he won a dual right now I'd say his career might just be better. By no means is it something you cannot compare. That line had nothing to do with him being the greatest of all time? It specifically said he had the greatest peak -- the double title win 2 weeks apart (The hardest part being winning Bo5s in the MSL finals and OSL semifinals just a few days apart). That said, lol, come on man. "If Bisu wins doubles titles his career might just be better," That's such a huge if, what the hell? We're not talking about the very unlikely future. You know what, if Bisu wins doubles titles and kicks just as much ass as Flash, anytime in the future, I will cede that he has the highest peak of any progamer. WHEN he does that. Until then could you atleast do me the favor of saying, atleast for now, Flash had the highest peak last year? Show nested quote +And no, the bonjwas wouldn't be able to beat A-teamers consistently nowadays. But I'm also sure that if Flash started out in Oov's/Nada's time, he would've still had trouble with the bonjwas because back then, they had something that no one else had, and something no one else would have for years. It's like comparing a 2nd world country of today with the Roman Empire, which really is not a fair comparison at all. Yeah, but when we're talking about peak play, that's just how it falls. It might not be fair to ancient romans that we have guns, but that still makes us much better than them at killing things.
I will say that Flash has the best peak of any current player. Whether or not he is better than Oov, Boxer, or Nada is a different story. Yet you can't say that Bisu/JD cannot compare.
Also, as far as the Romans, I'm trying to say something along the lines of "If not for the Romans, we may have never had guns in the first place." Just replace Romans with bonjwas and guns with macro mechanics. So it certainly isn't unfair to say that the bonjwas did more to be better, even if any top player would beat them simply because they came later.
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On February 21 2011 03:47 Lightwip wrote:Also, as far as the Romans, I'm trying to say something along the lines of "If not for the Romans, we may have never had guns in the first place." Just replace Romans with bonjwas and guns with macro mechanics. So it certainly isn't unfair to say that the bonjwas did more to be better, even if any top player would beat them simply because they came later.
You mean the Chinese! 
On February 21 2011 01:21 Mortality wrote:It's not NaDa's title count that makes him GOAT...
Then what is?
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And no, the bonjwas wouldn't be able to beat A-teamers consistently nowadays. But I'm also sure that if Flash started out in Oov's/Nada's time, he would've still had trouble with the bonjwas because back then, they had something that no one else had, and something no one else would have for years. It's like comparing a 2nd world country of today with the Roman Empire, which really is not a fair comparison at all.
What warped mode of reasoning is this? It seems to me you are, first and foremost, begging the question, and secondly, indulging in a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc - neither of which is a valid form of argumentation. The fact that Flash did not play during the eras of yore does not mean that he would not have defined those eras.
Riddle me this; if Flash were to have played during Nada/Oov's era(s), where exactly would his play be lacking? His fundamentals? His strategic or tactical reasoning? His mental acumen? His macro, micro or multitasking? Can you honestly say this would have been different in the past, knowing what you do about today's Flash? The idea that Flash's skillset or talents would not translate to other eras is nothing but baseless conjecture on your part. Yes, I contend that Flash has that "something" that no one else has today - and he would still have it if he played back then.
Your analogy, too, fails to take into account that Flash is not par of the course - he is to the bonjwas of old as Plato is to the pre-Socratics - doubtlessly indebted, indisputably (more than) their equal.
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On February 21 2011 02:22 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 01:56 Lightwip wrote:On February 20 2011 21:21 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 20 2011 21:05 Lightwip wrote:On February 20 2011 20:34 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote:
yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play. You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results. Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias. You seem to think that it is absolutely outrageous to think that Flash isn't the GOATest GOAT ever. I'd say his career is still less successful than oov's or Nada's. Nada has every achievement that Flash has, except more Kespa rank placement and 1 more title. Oov has his 'undefeated in finals' record. Boxer arguably had a better career too despite only having 3 titles. I'd say overall Bisu has the better career if he ever wins a dual title. Regardless of whether or not he does, it's certainly reasonable to compare peaks. You are not without bias yourself. I literally never used the GOAT term. This was all about peak play and there's absolutely no way the old bonjwas are even as good as the average A-Teamer's peak play right now. This is a complete strawman through and through. You address something I never came close to mentioning just to defend the side of the argument you like. Bisu is an amazing player, quite possibly the greatest protoss ever, but there's practically no excuse to say his peak play matches Flash's. Bisu was "almost" a bonjwa like 3 years ago. Flash WAS crowned bonjwa three months ago, I just don't see how you can take this stance. If you want to talk GOAT, though, it will take Jaedong or Flash winning 2 more titles. Until then, Nada's still the GOAT. Really? then what is this line? Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias. That sounds like you think that the two are not comparable, when they are. Why is it outrageous to compare peaks? Because one has more titles? That can easily change. Bisu has been around for longer, so if he won a dual right now I'd say his career might just be better. By no means is it something you cannot compare. That line had nothing to do with him being the greatest of all time? It specifically said he had the greatest peak -- the double title win 2 weeks apart (The hardest part being winning Bo5s in the MSL finals and OSL semifinals just a few days apart). That said, lol, come on man. "If Bisu wins doubles titles his career might just be better," That's such a huge if, what the hell? We're not talking about the very unlikely future. You know what, if Bisu wins doubles titles and kicks just as much ass as Flash, anytime in the future, I will cede that he has the highest peak of any progamer. WHEN he does that. Until then could you atleast do me the favor of saying, atleast for now, Flash had the highest peak last year? Show nested quote +And no, the bonjwas wouldn't be able to beat A-teamers consistently nowadays. But I'm also sure that if Flash started out in Oov's/Nada's time, he would've still had trouble with the bonjwas because back then, they had something that no one else had, and something no one else would have for years. It's like comparing a 2nd world country of today with the Roman Empire, which really is not a fair comparison at all. Yeah, but when we're talking about peak play, that's just how it falls. It might not be fair to ancient romans that we have guns, but that still makes us much better than them at killing things.
Twotone, it's not productive to argue about whether Flash can compare with players in the past. It's too hard to win that argument. Instead, it's better to focus on the slam dunk argument of how Flash was, is, and will be better than any other current player, especially Bisu. Lightwip has no counterargument to that.
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On February 21 2011 04:16 l0st_romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 02:22 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 21 2011 01:56 Lightwip wrote:On February 20 2011 21:21 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 20 2011 21:05 Lightwip wrote:On February 20 2011 20:34 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote:
yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play. You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results. Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias. You seem to think that it is absolutely outrageous to think that Flash isn't the GOATest GOAT ever. I'd say his career is still less successful than oov's or Nada's. Nada has every achievement that Flash has, except more Kespa rank placement and 1 more title. Oov has his 'undefeated in finals' record. Boxer arguably had a better career too despite only having 3 titles. I'd say overall Bisu has the better career if he ever wins a dual title. Regardless of whether or not he does, it's certainly reasonable to compare peaks. You are not without bias yourself. I literally never used the GOAT term. This was all about peak play and there's absolutely no way the old bonjwas are even as good as the average A-Teamer's peak play right now. This is a complete strawman through and through. You address something I never came close to mentioning just to defend the side of the argument you like. Bisu is an amazing player, quite possibly the greatest protoss ever, but there's practically no excuse to say his peak play matches Flash's. Bisu was "almost" a bonjwa like 3 years ago. Flash WAS crowned bonjwa three months ago, I just don't see how you can take this stance. If you want to talk GOAT, though, it will take Jaedong or Flash winning 2 more titles. Until then, Nada's still the GOAT. Really? then what is this line? Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias. That sounds like you think that the two are not comparable, when they are. Why is it outrageous to compare peaks? Because one has more titles? That can easily change. Bisu has been around for longer, so if he won a dual right now I'd say his career might just be better. By no means is it something you cannot compare. That line had nothing to do with him being the greatest of all time? It specifically said he had the greatest peak -- the double title win 2 weeks apart (The hardest part being winning Bo5s in the MSL finals and OSL semifinals just a few days apart). That said, lol, come on man. "If Bisu wins doubles titles his career might just be better," That's such a huge if, what the hell? We're not talking about the very unlikely future. You know what, if Bisu wins doubles titles and kicks just as much ass as Flash, anytime in the future, I will cede that he has the highest peak of any progamer. WHEN he does that. Until then could you atleast do me the favor of saying, atleast for now, Flash had the highest peak last year? And no, the bonjwas wouldn't be able to beat A-teamers consistently nowadays. But I'm also sure that if Flash started out in Oov's/Nada's time, he would've still had trouble with the bonjwas because back then, they had something that no one else had, and something no one else would have for years. It's like comparing a 2nd world country of today with the Roman Empire, which really is not a fair comparison at all. Yeah, but when we're talking about peak play, that's just how it falls. It might not be fair to ancient romans that we have guns, but that still makes us much better than them at killing things. Twotone, it's not productive to argue about whether Flash can compare with players in the past. It's too hard to win that argument. Instead, it's better to focus on the slam dunk argument of how Flash was, is, and will be better than any other current player, especially Bisu. Lightwip has no counterargument to that.
But Bisu would have been better than Oov and Nada if he had been around back then. So this means Bisu is superior to Flash.
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Well, you can argue, bisu did change the flow of the game, how its played during his peak / prime,
like the bonjwas did before him.
What did Flash? He won everything, no doubt a fucking huge accomplishment and i have great respect for that, but that did/is he really contribute/ing to the game during his peak?
Nothing special, he does the same like every terran, just better.
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On February 21 2011 04:12 Prototype wrote:Show nested quote +And no, the bonjwas wouldn't be able to beat A-teamers consistently nowadays. But I'm also sure that if Flash started out in Oov's/Nada's time, he would've still had trouble with the bonjwas because back then, they had something that no one else had, and something no one else would have for years. It's like comparing a 2nd world country of today with the Roman Empire, which really is not a fair comparison at all. What warped mode of reasoning is this? It seems to me you are, first and foremost, begging the question, and secondly, indulging in a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc - neither of which is a valid form of argumentation. The fact that Flash did not play during the eras of yore does not mean that he would not have defined those eras. Riddle me this; if Flash were to have played during Nada/Oov's era(s), where exactly would his play be lacking? His fundamentals? His strategic or tactical reasoning? His mental acumen? His macro, micro or multitasking? Can you honestly say this would have been different in the past, knowing what you do about today's Flash? The idea that Flash's skillset or talents would not translate to other eras is nothing but baseless conjecture on your part. Yes, I contend that Flash has that "something" that no one else has today - and he would still have it if he played back then. Your analogy, too, fails to take into account that Flash is not par of the course - he is to the bonjwas of old as Plato is to the pre-Socratics - doubtlessly indebted, indisputably (more than) their equal.
If Flash played back then he would indeed be lacking the macro mechanics, the fundamentals, and the strategic ability. These things were created by the bonjwas and weren't used by everyone until way later.
Hell, Savior owned with his macro while having low APM simply because he had something no one else had - insight into better zerg macro mechanics.
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On February 21 2011 04:22 okum wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 04:16 l0st_romantic wrote:On February 21 2011 02:22 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 21 2011 01:56 Lightwip wrote:On February 20 2011 21:21 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 20 2011 21:05 Lightwip wrote:On February 20 2011 20:34 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote:
yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play. You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results. Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias. You seem to think that it is absolutely outrageous to think that Flash isn't the GOATest GOAT ever. I'd say his career is still less successful than oov's or Nada's. Nada has every achievement that Flash has, except more Kespa rank placement and 1 more title. Oov has his 'undefeated in finals' record. Boxer arguably had a better career too despite only having 3 titles. I'd say overall Bisu has the better career if he ever wins a dual title. Regardless of whether or not he does, it's certainly reasonable to compare peaks. You are not without bias yourself. I literally never used the GOAT term. This was all about peak play and there's absolutely no way the old bonjwas are even as good as the average A-Teamer's peak play right now. This is a complete strawman through and through. You address something I never came close to mentioning just to defend the side of the argument you like. Bisu is an amazing player, quite possibly the greatest protoss ever, but there's practically no excuse to say his peak play matches Flash's. Bisu was "almost" a bonjwa like 3 years ago. Flash WAS crowned bonjwa three months ago, I just don't see how you can take this stance. If you want to talk GOAT, though, it will take Jaedong or Flash winning 2 more titles. Until then, Nada's still the GOAT. Really? then what is this line? Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias. That sounds like you think that the two are not comparable, when they are. Why is it outrageous to compare peaks? Because one has more titles? That can easily change. Bisu has been around for longer, so if he won a dual right now I'd say his career might just be better. By no means is it something you cannot compare. That line had nothing to do with him being the greatest of all time? It specifically said he had the greatest peak -- the double title win 2 weeks apart (The hardest part being winning Bo5s in the MSL finals and OSL semifinals just a few days apart). That said, lol, come on man. "If Bisu wins doubles titles his career might just be better," That's such a huge if, what the hell? We're not talking about the very unlikely future. You know what, if Bisu wins doubles titles and kicks just as much ass as Flash, anytime in the future, I will cede that he has the highest peak of any progamer. WHEN he does that. Until then could you atleast do me the favor of saying, atleast for now, Flash had the highest peak last year? And no, the bonjwas wouldn't be able to beat A-teamers consistently nowadays. But I'm also sure that if Flash started out in Oov's/Nada's time, he would've still had trouble with the bonjwas because back then, they had something that no one else had, and something no one else would have for years. It's like comparing a 2nd world country of today with the Roman Empire, which really is not a fair comparison at all. Yeah, but when we're talking about peak play, that's just how it falls. It might not be fair to ancient romans that we have guns, but that still makes us much better than them at killing things. Twotone, it's not productive to argue about whether Flash can compare with players in the past. It's too hard to win that argument. Instead, it's better to focus on the slam dunk argument of how Flash was, is, and will be better than any other current player, especially Bisu. Lightwip has no counterargument to that. But Bisu would have been better than Oov and Nada if he had been around back then. So this means Bisu is superior to Flash.
Let's deconstruct this.
1) "But Bisu would have been better than Oov and Nada if he had been around back then."
Proof? How do you know this? How can you compare a current player with a past player in terms of skill? It's an unarguable discussion.
2) "So this means Bisu is superior to Flash."
Even if 1 is true, it doesn't imply that Bisu is superior to Flash, because then you'd have to prove that Flash is NOT better than Oov and Nada if he had been around back then.
EDIT:
Wait just realized you were being sarcastic. My bad.
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On February 21 2011 04:34 Elefanto wrote:
Well, you can argue, bisu did change the flow of the game, how its played during his peak / prime,
like the bonjwas did before him.
What did Flash? He won everything, no doubt a fucking huge accomplishment and i have great respect for that, but that did/is he really contribute/ing to the game during his peak?
Nothing special, he does the same like every terran, just better.
The mass tank thing was probably the biggest change in TvZ since the destination-mech craze, as well as inane amounts of match specific timing pushes no one's seen before (WHY DO THOSE GOLIATHS HAVE MEDIC MARINE BACKING). Also, in TvP he's kind of taken the 12nex bunker rush to a different extreme, invented that weird attack that's like a super fake double which every protoss and their mothers prepare for every game against him. It becomes more obvious how much he personally changes TvP when you see almost every protoss that beats him pulls out some crazy new strategy (4 gate push in broodwar, what the hell stork?!).
It might not be as plainly obvious as when bisu sair dt'd savior to pieces, but I'd say Flash has changed the game just as not if not more than everyone since Savior.
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On February 21 2011 04:16 l0st_romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 02:22 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 21 2011 01:56 Lightwip wrote:On February 20 2011 21:21 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 20 2011 21:05 Lightwip wrote:On February 20 2011 20:34 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 20 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote:
yo you're misinterpreting what I said, I didn't mean peak as in peak "accomplishments", but rather when he was playing the best he's ever played. Bisu was nowhere near his absolute best in the first series they ever played. I'd say Bisu's peak play was around 08-09, its just that he never was able to display it consistently enough to dominate, and '10 he showed it sometimes but mostly sucking. Flash's peak in terms of career is miles and miles ahead of Bisu, and I totally agree with that. Flash is a consistent beast. What I'm saying though, is that when Bisu's decision-making is at its best and peak, he rivals that of Flash's peak play. You literally said he slaughtered Flash, which just isn't true. You have this vague notion of "peak play," but have nothing to back it up. You just assume Bisu was just as good and I don't get that. He played exceedingly well but, honest to goodness, at the same level Flash did last year? Did you see Flash last year? It was the most mind bogglingly dominant play anyone's ever seen. It is to his credit he could keep doing it, but why couldn't Bisu? I mean he couldn't even do it for a straight month if he was just as good as Flash or he would've double titled. I understand Bisu's play was very impressive at times, but there's probably a reason it didn't work well enough to win him as many titles and I don't think it's just because he played worse from day to day. I just don't think he was the calibre you assume he was. And this is all ignoring that players have gotten much better over the past couple years. I'd say Bisu is a better player now than he was at his "peak," as you say, in 2008-2009, it's just not good enough to compete with the rest of the field and put up better results. Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias. You seem to think that it is absolutely outrageous to think that Flash isn't the GOATest GOAT ever. I'd say his career is still less successful than oov's or Nada's. Nada has every achievement that Flash has, except more Kespa rank placement and 1 more title. Oov has his 'undefeated in finals' record. Boxer arguably had a better career too despite only having 3 titles. I'd say overall Bisu has the better career if he ever wins a dual title. Regardless of whether or not he does, it's certainly reasonable to compare peaks. You are not without bias yourself. I literally never used the GOAT term. This was all about peak play and there's absolutely no way the old bonjwas are even as good as the average A-Teamer's peak play right now. This is a complete strawman through and through. You address something I never came close to mentioning just to defend the side of the argument you like. Bisu is an amazing player, quite possibly the greatest protoss ever, but there's practically no excuse to say his peak play matches Flash's. Bisu was "almost" a bonjwa like 3 years ago. Flash WAS crowned bonjwa three months ago, I just don't see how you can take this stance. If you want to talk GOAT, though, it will take Jaedong or Flash winning 2 more titles. Until then, Nada's still the GOAT. Really? then what is this line? Bisu's done some cool things but, seriously, comparing him to Flash's peak which is the greatest peak any progamer's ever had is outrageous. You've got nothing to back it up with other than bias. That sounds like you think that the two are not comparable, when they are. Why is it outrageous to compare peaks? Because one has more titles? That can easily change. Bisu has been around for longer, so if he won a dual right now I'd say his career might just be better. By no means is it something you cannot compare. That line had nothing to do with him being the greatest of all time? It specifically said he had the greatest peak -- the double title win 2 weeks apart (The hardest part being winning Bo5s in the MSL finals and OSL semifinals just a few days apart). That said, lol, come on man. "If Bisu wins doubles titles his career might just be better," That's such a huge if, what the hell? We're not talking about the very unlikely future. You know what, if Bisu wins doubles titles and kicks just as much ass as Flash, anytime in the future, I will cede that he has the highest peak of any progamer. WHEN he does that. Until then could you atleast do me the favor of saying, atleast for now, Flash had the highest peak last year? And no, the bonjwas wouldn't be able to beat A-teamers consistently nowadays. But I'm also sure that if Flash started out in Oov's/Nada's time, he would've still had trouble with the bonjwas because back then, they had something that no one else had, and something no one else would have for years. It's like comparing a 2nd world country of today with the Roman Empire, which really is not a fair comparison at all. Yeah, but when we're talking about peak play, that's just how it falls. It might not be fair to ancient romans that we have guns, but that still makes us much better than them at killing things. Twotone, it's not productive to argue about whether Flash can compare with players in the past. It's too hard to win that argument. Instead, it's better to focus on the slam dunk argument of how Flash was, is, and will be better than any other current player, especially Bisu. Lightwip has no counterargument to that.
That underlined part is flavored with so much fanboyism there isnt a trace of reason or logic left in it. Flash is good, awesome, nigh invincible, yes. But to actually argue that he will be better than anyone (in this timeline) can ever be... I dont see how you can argue that point.. Unless of course you are psychic and know the future, which obviously you arent.. So do try to keep reason n logic in your mind while arguing, not just hot burning pictures of Flash.
I dont know how people says that Bisu fans are annoying (they express their manlove openly in LR threads, thats all i can see). And while im not in a neutral position (Bisu fan).. I would imagine any such neutral person will find some of these Flash's fan annoying beyond tolerable bounds.
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On February 21 2011 04:58 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 04:34 Elefanto wrote:
Well, you can argue, bisu did change the flow of the game, how its played during his peak / prime,
like the bonjwas did before him.
What did Flash? He won everything, no doubt a fucking huge accomplishment and i have great respect for that, but that did/is he really contribute/ing to the game during his peak?
Nothing special, he does the same like every terran, just better. The mass tank thing was probably the biggest change in TvZ since the destination-mech craze, as well as inane amounts of match specific timing pushes no one's seen before (WHY DO THOSE GOLIATHS HAVE MEDIC MARINE BACKING). Also, in TvP he's kind of taken the 12nex bunker rush to a different extreme, invented that weird attack that's like a super fake double which every protoss and their mothers prepare for every game against him. It becomes more obvious how much he personally changes TvP when you see almost every protoss that beats him pulls out some crazy new strategy (4 gate push in broodwar, what the hell stork?!). It might not be as plainly obvious as when bisu sair dt'd savior to pieces, but I'd say Flash has changed the game just as not if not more than everyone since Savior.
Yep. Savior invented one build and playstyle that forced people to practice and adopt to. Bisu countered that build. Flash invented a whole system of builds, a management "plan" that allows for the Terran to utilize scan, turrets to block incoming obs/scout denial, to consistently have the informational and decision advantage over other races. One of the biggest advantages of Terran that Flash has realized is that as a T you don't need to just defend fewer bases, you also don't need to worry about other races seeing what the heck you're doing inside your base if you lay out turrets properly, while comsat is essentially an unblockable maphack. That's Flash's innovation, and it plays out at a much deeper level than learning how to do cute shit with corsairs or DTs versus one specific Zerg build order.
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On February 21 2011 04:58 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 04:34 Elefanto wrote:
Well, you can argue, bisu did change the flow of the game, how its played during his peak / prime,
like the bonjwas did before him.
What did Flash? He won everything, no doubt a fucking huge accomplishment and i have great respect for that, but that did/is he really contribute/ing to the game during his peak?
Nothing special, he does the same like every terran, just better. The mass tank thing was probably the biggest change in TvZ since the destination-mech craze, as well as inane amounts of match specific timing pushes no one's seen before (WHY DO THOSE GOLIATHS HAVE MEDIC MARINE BACKING). Also, in TvP he's kind of taken the 12nex bunker rush to a different extreme, invented that weird attack that's like a super fake double which every protoss and their mothers prepare for every game against him. It becomes more obvious how much he personally changes TvP when you see almost every protoss that beats him pulls out some crazy new strategy (4 gate push in broodwar, what the hell stork?!). It might not be as plainly obvious as when bisu sair dt'd savior to pieces, but I'd say Flash has changed the game just as not if not more than everyone since Savior.
Mass tank thing was Midas and Fantasy's thing.
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On February 21 2011 05:11 xMiragex wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 04:58 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 21 2011 04:34 Elefanto wrote:
Well, you can argue, bisu did change the flow of the game, how its played during his peak / prime,
like the bonjwas did before him.
What did Flash? He won everything, no doubt a fucking huge accomplishment and i have great respect for that, but that did/is he really contribute/ing to the game during his peak?
Nothing special, he does the same like every terran, just better. The mass tank thing was probably the biggest change in TvZ since the destination-mech craze, as well as inane amounts of match specific timing pushes no one's seen before (WHY DO THOSE GOLIATHS HAVE MEDIC MARINE BACKING). Also, in TvP he's kind of taken the 12nex bunker rush to a different extreme, invented that weird attack that's like a super fake double which every protoss and their mothers prepare for every game against him. It becomes more obvious how much he personally changes TvP when you see almost every protoss that beats him pulls out some crazy new strategy (4 gate push in broodwar, what the hell stork?!). It might not be as plainly obvious as when bisu sair dt'd savior to pieces, but I'd say Flash has changed the game just as not if not more than everyone since Savior. Mass tank thing was Midas and Fantasy's thing.
I think what Twotone means here is the lategame mech switch that Flash pulled vs Kwanro on Roadrunner.
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On February 21 2011 05:14 l0st_romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 05:11 xMiragex wrote:On February 21 2011 04:58 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 21 2011 04:34 Elefanto wrote:
Well, you can argue, bisu did change the flow of the game, how its played during his peak / prime,
like the bonjwas did before him.
What did Flash? He won everything, no doubt a fucking huge accomplishment and i have great respect for that, but that did/is he really contribute/ing to the game during his peak?
Nothing special, he does the same like every terran, just better. The mass tank thing was probably the biggest change in TvZ since the destination-mech craze, as well as inane amounts of match specific timing pushes no one's seen before (WHY DO THOSE GOLIATHS HAVE MEDIC MARINE BACKING). Also, in TvP he's kind of taken the 12nex bunker rush to a different extreme, invented that weird attack that's like a super fake double which every protoss and their mothers prepare for every game against him. It becomes more obvious how much he personally changes TvP when you see almost every protoss that beats him pulls out some crazy new strategy (4 gate push in broodwar, what the hell stork?!). It might not be as plainly obvious as when bisu sair dt'd savior to pieces, but I'd say Flash has changed the game just as not if not more than everyone since Savior. Mass tank thing was Midas and Fantasy's thing. I think what Twotone means here is the lategame mech switch that Flash pulled vs Kwanro on Roadrunner.
That's what im referring to as well. Its the same thing, well obviously executed better.
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On February 21 2011 04:44 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 04:12 Prototype wrote:And no, the bonjwas wouldn't be able to beat A-teamers consistently nowadays. But I'm also sure that if Flash started out in Oov's/Nada's time, he would've still had trouble with the bonjwas because back then, they had something that no one else had, and something no one else would have for years. It's like comparing a 2nd world country of today with the Roman Empire, which really is not a fair comparison at all. What warped mode of reasoning is this? It seems to me you are, first and foremost, begging the question, and secondly, indulging in a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc - neither of which is a valid form of argumentation. The fact that Flash did not play during the eras of yore does not mean that he would not have defined those eras. Riddle me this; if Flash were to have played during Nada/Oov's era(s), where exactly would his play be lacking? His fundamentals? His strategic or tactical reasoning? His mental acumen? His macro, micro or multitasking? Can you honestly say this would have been different in the past, knowing what you do about today's Flash? The idea that Flash's skillset or talents would not translate to other eras is nothing but baseless conjecture on your part. Yes, I contend that Flash has that "something" that no one else has today - and he would still have it if he played back then. Your analogy, too, fails to take into account that Flash is not par of the course - he is to the bonjwas of old as Plato is to the pre-Socratics - doubtlessly indebted, indisputably (more than) their equal. If Flash played back then he would indeed be lacking the macro mechanics, the fundamentals, and the strategic ability. These things were created by the bonjwas and weren't used by everyone until way later. Hell, Savior owned with his macro while having low APM simply because he had something no one else had - insight into better zerg macro mechanics.
And the fact that Flash is owning everyone else who "learned from the bonjwas" doesn't tip you off to the fact that Flash himself is defining the way the game is played? It's not about legacy or influence, it's about natural talent and dedication. Flash would still be a leading figure during Oov's era because history has shown he is simply better than everyone else at Starcraft - why would you assume he would not create his own style for himself, as he does now?
And I can't believe people are ignorant of the many, many strategic trends originating with Flash. His contributions to TvP alone (the majority of which are palpable enough to be apreciated by the layman) are enough to secure him his place as a master strategist, and that's not even accounting for his meticulous timing attack builds and one-off strategems (within every matchup).
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