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I think the most important matter to bring up in order to clarify this conflict:
Yes, FlaSh is presently a bonjwa, but he NOW finally has a decent pool of competition to deal with: Jaedong is still one of his largest obstacles as always, Stork is picking up the pace on his play, Bisu is resurging big time from his slump, and a large roster of A-Class players are now able to at least give FlaSh a run for his money more now than ever (BeSt/FanTaSy/Light/snOw/Kal/etc.)
FlaSh may be the best right now, but at least he now has a larger pool of competition to deal with in order to retain his bonjwa status. He may have dropped the most recent individual leagues, but his current performances in the team leagues only shows that not only is FlaSh still playing well, he's ready for more.
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On January 17 2011 13:01 Goragoth wrote:
Assuming he makes the MSL finals (which right now looks rather likely) he will have made at least one finals appearance for six seasons in a row, I think the next closest is SaviOr with finals 4 seasons in a row. Now that's a record that I bet Flash will never beat.
You're saying positive things for Jaedong but not positive things for Flash? That would kind of being biased. Sure Jaedong would make the most consecutive Finals, but will he consecutive Dual Finals? That's a record I bet Jaedong will never beat. See what I did there?
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On January 17 2011 11:15 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Flash became a bonjwa because he beat everyone everywhere all the time. Your logic is flawed because Boxer didn't have to dethrone a bonjwa to become one -- that's not like some necessary requirement.
Never said it was. However, it wasn't until he beat Jaedong that people decided "he's God," "he must be a bonjwa."
Flash could've beaten 2 players who weren't Jaedong in both finals and still been bonjwa because winning WL, SPL, OSL and MSL all in the same general time span after winning two straight titles and tons of silvers and blah blah.
No, I doubt this. The comments by and large at the time all had the consensus that it was because he beat Jaedong x2, not that he won dual titles.
[/quote]
Jaedong didn't do close to what Flash did and didn't dominate nearly as hard as Flash did.[/QUOTE]
This is wrong.
-Jaedong still has the second most OSL/MSL wins of all time (behind Nada), and has more silvers than Flash does and I believe more top 4/8 appearances, as well.
-He has the highest vs P ELO ever achieved by any player and held the highest vs Z for months (years?) before Flash edged him out by 1 win.
-Flash has held #1 Terran for 20 months straight; Jaedong has held it for 36 months (three full years) straight.
-Jaedong has a 76.34% winrate vs Z, despite 186 games played, which I'm pretty confident is the highest win percentage ever for any matchup for a player with >100 games.
-Jaedong holds the ZvT and ZvP streak; Flash holds the TvT and TvP streak.
-Whenever Jaedong or Flash plays, they are always the favorite, regardless of who they play or what the map is.
Tell me how Flash is more accomplished when nearly everything favors Jaedong or is equal? Three years of dominance plus the #2 final wins somehow isn't "long enough" or "good enough?" Ridiculous.
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those of you who say bisu recently got owned by flash... watch the game again.
imo right now stork is just godlike.
#1: stork
#2: flash
#3: bisu/jaedong
i am a hardcore bisu fan, but i have to accept the truth.
still, all you people saying bisu sucks PvT... why are you making it seem like his PvT is absurdly weak? it used to be, but it's not anymore. he's not headbutting into tank/mine lines as much anymore; he's not doing dumb recalls anymore; he's IMPROVING. he doesn't need to prove ANYTHING about his PvT. this is mainly directed at this guy:
On January 17 2011 03:39 SkytoM wrote:
I also think Bisu's PvT is still horrible. His PvP is very shaky too. I think his good results are kinda fluky for a player who is considered "S-Class". He's not. He's A-Class with an ubergodly PvZ.
gtfo. the ONLY two players he has trouble against right now are stork and flash. he has proven himself capable of comfortably beating everyone else.
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Stork - 29-6 in his last 35 games. 82%. Vs some pretty damn good competition too.
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I think you're misunderstanding the point, Craton.
Jaedong didn't do close to what flash did during 2010 in any of the years Jaedong played.
This is a true statement, if you look at how the year went for flash you cannot say jaedong was close to that.
However it has nothing to do with how accomplished they are.
Flash is not more accomplished than Jaedong, because Jaedong's "lesser" dominance is stretched over a longer period of time.
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5003 Posts
There are two things to consider when deciding how good a player is -- the player's momentum/force behind them, and the player's actual skill level. Those two are obviously related -- the stronger the player the more force they'll have.
Note that Stork and Bisu both had a meteoric rise to the top this season. There's no doubt that they have a lot of momentum, but it's not quite enough to discredit Flash or Jaedong in terms of how Lee Ssang dominated last year -- I think people are quite overvaluing Stork and Bisu's momentum due to how quickly they rose to the top.
Except I refuse to consider Flash a bonjwa until Jaedong gets the recognition deserved, since he has been more dominant in every category and done so longer. Look at the records thread and see for yourself. If Jaedong has Flash beat overall and Jaedong isn't bonjwa (by some arbitrary TLPD standard), then neither is Flash. I'm not alone in this opinion, either.
The only argument I've heard that supposedly made Flash a bonjwa was a dual victory over Jaedong. Except, if beating Jaedong is what it takes to make you a bonjwa, you inherently imply Jaedong to already be of bonjwa status (which he is).
The term "Bonjwa" is purely about Force -- Flash hit Bonjwa precisely at the moment that he won Korean Air OSL Season 2. The reason why it had to wait until then was because Jaedong was still a huge formidable opponent up to that point. You can't be "bonjwa" at the same time with another person. They fought each other, they took games against each other, and they each made it clear at critical moments that they can and will stand in each other's ways to stop their domination. Flash by destroying Jaedong in two consecutive finals after he finished his campaigns of dominating everything else kind of sealed the deal -- the feeling, the force Flash gave off was "not even Jaedong can stop Flash".
It's kinda true. Only Flash (or wrist injuries) will be the one who can stop Flash. Jaedong didnt need to be bonjwa at all for it to make sense, Flash just needed to dominate the one person who we thought could stand up to Flash. And he did.
In the end it's a stupid argument anyway, since it is the Korean community that decides who's bonjwa and who isn't. We really need to come up with a title of our own here on TL. Maybe we should create a hall of fame or something like that, reserved for the very best, and drop pointless bonjwa discussions altogether.
koreans dont even use bonjwa anymore, they just call Flash "god". He has been called "god" for a while now, and everytime someone stands up to Flash it's like "you dare challenge god?" kind of deal. Defeating Jaedong, the last "human" is actually what sealed Flash as "god" in the Korean BW world lol
Tell me how Flash is more accomplished when nearly everything favors Jaedong or is equal? Three years of dominance plus the #2 final wins somehow isn't "long enough" or "good enough?" Ridiculous.
It's how THOROUGHLY flash dominated the past season that gave Flash the aura. Jaedong was consistently "dominant" but he didn't thoroughly dominate, so to speak -- things such as losing during Proleague finals when it counted most, etc kinda hurt him a lot in terms of that.
Oh and
On January 17 2011 10:03 l0st_romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 09:01 Milkis wrote:
I think it's worth it to note that the OP is a general strategy consultant and it's his job to come up with vague, meaningless statistics and make some sort of bad conclusions about them and get paid for it.
why are people so surprised that the OP is wrong :O sorry that we didn't give you an interview
someone is clutching at straws! but i guess it's kinda hard to laugh it off eh (well it was mostly a friendly joke since I do kinda know you ;p)
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I think the truly amazing thing is that we are currently witnessing the two greatest players this game has ever had. On the one hand Flash who has already edged out Oov/SaviOr for most dominant player in the history of the game and on the other hand Jaedong who is close to edging out NaDa for most consistent player ever (only time will tell of course). Not to mention that all of this is happening at a time where the competition is as tough as it has ever been.
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On January 17 2011 15:30 Milkis wrote:
Flash by destroying Jaedong in two consecutive finals after he finished his campaigns of dominating everything else kind of sealed the deal -- the feeling, the force Flash gave off was "not even Jaedong can stop Flash".
Three. It was three finals in a row.
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5003 Posts
On January 17 2011 15:38 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 15:30 Milkis wrote:
Flash by destroying Jaedong in two consecutive finals after he finished his campaigns of dominating everything else kind of sealed the deal -- the feeling, the force Flash gave off was "not even Jaedong can stop Flash".
Three. It was three finals in a row.
yeah, but two after the proleague finals -- i think it was the aura of KT going "we have flash we're going to win" and Flash sealing the deal combined with the two finals after that that really sealed the deal overall.
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On January 17 2011 07:44 HitoriTomoyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 06:42 ibreakurface wrote:
Even vs. fantasy it wouldn't be accurate, team-kills are volatile.
Also, fox is a well rounded team, Roro, shine, midas, baby, mind, and pure. I wouldn't say they are terran centered. Then who would be a good measuring stick? I understand that team-kills are unpredictable but I can't really think of any other Terran besides FlaSh and FanTaSy that would solidly reveal Bisu's present PvT capabilities. I know FOX is a deep team, I guess I worded that wrong. What I meant to get across was my personal surprise at Bisu facing a single Terran (BaBy) when FOX could have practically thrown at least one other Terran against Bisu instead of throwing Pure at him (Shine was somewhat understandable). Not that I'm trying to claim that Mind or Midas would have fared off any better than Pure against Bisu, I'm just a bit surprised that they didn't try to knock out Bisu by playing towards his weakness.
Well pure beat bisu a few times last year so I guess they thought he could again, he is a PvP sniper after-all. As for who would be a good measuring stick to test bisus vT, only time can tell. If he consistently beats top 5 terrans, or shows good play in his vT's, we will know. Winning a game vs a top terran, or even a set, won't tell if he has a solid vT.
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Err, why are you discussing all this in such an inappropriately named thread?
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Bisu > (Enter Your Name Here)
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That's crazy, funny thing is BJ Penn just knocked out Matt Hughes in like 3 seconds as well. I guess miracles do happen eh?
User was warned for this post
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On February 19 2011 06:18 Easy772 wrote:
That's crazy, funny thing is BJ Penn just knocked out Matt Hughes in like 3 seconds as well. I guess miracles do happen eh?
Why did you BUMPE'd this with....that?!
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bumped for justice
User was warned for this post
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On February 19 2011 07:46 TheYellowOne wrote:
bumped for justice
Does it really count as a bump if it's 4 minutes after the last post?
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10387 Posts
Should be changed to "Who's hot? Jaedong's not" according to the OP's methods :<
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JD isn't really that hot right now. But he probably will be hot again in the future. Nothing has changed so much that JD will drop.
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I am willing to bet my signature that Bisu won't make it into the Ro4 in either the next OSL or MSL, or that his ELO will slip by more than 80 points from his current level by May 18th. His current performance is mainly a function of harass-friendly and P-friendly maps. Once maps return to maps which reward solid defensive players, his performance will suffer.
If not, I offer my signature to be decided upon by a self-identified Bisu fan.
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EPT
