Who's hot? Bisu's not. - Page 13

On January 17 2011 08:10 moopie wrote:

By 10 points, and you're talking peak, BeSt currently has 59 vT ELO on Bisu, and has been ahead of him for a long while. When players hit a new peak and then drop shortly after (like Flash did a few times) there's not too much value to be had there. And S-class isn't a defined term. Bisu is much more solid vZ and vP, BeSt is one of the top vT tosses in the game. If only BeSt could actually have learned a thing or two in his other matchups from Bisu

On August 19 2010 16:02 G5 wrote:
Such little faith. Please re-visit this thread in 3-4 months and take a pic of your face plz. I wanna see your expression when you realize how wrong you were and who exactly you questioned. Bisu is solid, strong, reliable and the highest paid progamer (afaik) today (talk about motivation). This man might loose games every once in a while, no one can win every time. He will revolutionize himself as he has done countless times. Every time I hear about a slump I think, wait 3-4 months. Why? Because not only does the test of time prove someone right or wrong but also the fact that some players styles just don't work well with certain maps and a new map pool could change everything around. And Bisu sure the fuck has style. I am not going fan boy here, I actually never liked Bisu's style to much but he is way too talented and skilled to just drop off the face of the map. Give it time. Bisu will succeed.

On January 17 2011 08:08 valaki wrote:
Flash is not the "hands down best player currently" anymore. Accept it KT fanboys, please.

On January 17 2011 09:01 Milkis wrote:
I think it's worth it to note that the OP is a general strategy consultant and it's his job to come up with vague, meaningless statistics and make some sort of bad conclusions about them and get paid for it.

why are people so surprised that the OP is wrong :O

On January 17 2011 06:51 Musoeun wrote:


But that's the problem: at some point better results are what makes someone a better player. And if we talk about best player right now, which I am doing, Bisu's results are just as good or better than Flash's, and Storks are even better. Yes, Flash gets more benefit of the doubt. Yes, Flash is likely to do as well or better as those two when the next season of SLs rolls around, or even as PL continues. But there's definite doubt right now who the best player is - Flash and Jaedong have momentum from older results, but Bisu and Stork have recently looked just as good, and fantasy is right behind those four with Hydra right behind him.

You're trying to define "best player" as... I don't even know how you're trying to define it, exactly. Is Flash the best player ever? Of course. But that's something determined by SL titles, finals, solid PL performance over the long haul, and when most of us talk about "Who's the best player?" we mean, "Who's playing best right now?", where "right now" is a matter of a couple months if not a few weeks. By that standard - the common one - is Flash's performance at this time the best there is around? I think Stork looks better: I think Bisu looks more unstoppable (except his PvT, asdfweafavea). All I'm saying is it's debatable: right now, Flash has challengers, even if it's mostly his own fault for epic failing out of the starleagues

(And then of course there's Jaedong, who's probably the favorite to win the MSL because I don't trust Stork's PvZ in a finals and if Stork manages to lose before that JD should roflstomp anybody else. But Bisu and Flash are probably both favored against Jaedong right now, though I personally think we're back to the Bisu wins the single PL game, JD wins the BoX standard we used to have.)

On January 17 2011 10:54 infinitestory wrote:

that doesn't mean Flash isn't a bonjwa anymore.

On January 17 2011 10:56 Comeh wrote:

Just wanted to throw out, once one is bonjwa, the title doesn't go away, unless you do something to ruin your reputation (Savior...)
Boxer, Nada, Oov are still bonjwa.

Edit: at least, as far as i've noticed how the usage of bonjwa is around here.

On January 17 2011 10:57 infinitestory wrote:

That was a semi-response to the post above mine

On January 17 2011 10:56 Comeh wrote:

Just wanted to throw out, once one is bonjwa, the title doesn't go away, unless you do something to ruin your reputation (Savior...)
Boxer, Nada, Oov are still bonjwa.

Edit: at least, as far as i've noticed how the usage of bonjwa is around here.

On January 17 2011 10:54 infinitestory wrote:
ugh wow
this entire argument about flash v. stork v. bisu v. whoever else is, as far as I can tell, based around ONE discrepancy:

What does it mean to be the BEST player?
Best play?
Best results?
Most momentum or dominance?

And does it refer to the best player of recent times (past few weeks) or long-term (past few months)?

While (@ above post) there's certainly no way to argue Modesty has the best play, he does have both momentum and results behind him. Flash has very strong play (although more mortal than in the past), but his results aren't spectacular. Stork is showing off all three: he's barreling right over pretty much everyone in every league.

Is Flash the best player of the last year? I can't argue against that, and indeed anyone would be hard pressed to argue against the hardware he's gathered.

Is Flash the best player of the last months? That's certainly debatable. Even if Stork and Bisu have been playing better (which I think is true), that doesn't mean Flash isn't a bonjwa anymore.


Regarding Bisu in particular:
Here's where I think the results make a faulty argument. Sure, Bisu and Flash were eliminated in leagues about the same time. But who was Bisu eliminated by? Shine (who was/is on a streak of absolute rape in ZvP) and Stork (who isn't PR #1 for no reason). It took Classic, Ssak, and Hyuk to eliminate Flash.

On January 17 2011 11:10 Craton wrote:

Except I refuse to consider Flash a bonjwa until Jaedong gets the recognition deserved, since he has been more dominant in every category and done so longer. Look at the records thread and see for yourself. If Jaedong has Flash beat overall and Jaedong isn't bonjwa (by some arbitrary TLPD standard), then neither is Flash. I'm not alone in this opinion, either.

The only argument I've heard that supposedly made Flash a bonjwa was a dual victory over Jaedong. Except, if beating Jaedong is what it takes to make you a bonjwa, you inherently imply Jaedong to already be of bonjwa status (which he is).

On January 17 2011 11:15 TwoToneTerran wrote:


My point is that people have this unusual double standard they apply to their favorite players. They want to say Stork and Bisu are better than Flash because they got further in tournaments this year. From a purely first level of thought it's a bit reasonable, but by that same merit, they will never admit that Modesty is the better player to Bisu despite being in the Ro4 of a tournament right now. They say this because they know that A: Bisu has more past success than modesty. B: Bisu plays more impressive games than modesty. C: Modesty hasn't beaten Bisu in a series. D: Well come on modesty's just a scrub who got a luckier draw in the tournament than Bisu.

The list goes on, and all the reasons why Modesty isn't a better player than Bisu is why no one in the world is a better player than Flash. Stork has a shot at it if he wins both tournaments this season and keeps it up through next season while Flash doesn't live up to expectations, and it'll help if he can take down Flash in PL or something. I just think it's dumb to throw out kneejerk statements of who's a better play, even ~right now~ as the magic words are when it's so backwards.



Flash became a bonjwa because he beat everyone everywhere all the time. Your logic is flawed because Boxer didn't have to dethrone a bonjwa to become one -- that's not like some necessary requirement. Flash could've beaten 2 players who weren't Jaedong in both finals and still been bonjwa because winning WL, SPL, OSL and MSL all in the same general time span after winning two straight titles and tons of silvers and blah blah. Jaedong didn't do close to what Flash did and didn't dominate nearly as hard as Flash did -- his best overall performance is winning the OSL, Ro8 MSL and runner up in SPL (This isn't AS indicative as the previous two but it's noteworthy) before Flash's bonjwa run started. If he had achieved what Flash did they would've called him God Jae Dong in Korea the same way they do with Flash now.

It's a matter of intangibles over stats, but even stats back him up. Jaedong was never in 2 finals at once until he lost to Flash. There's no such thing as co-bonjwas.