EPTI kind of want to see FanTaSy and Bisu play a BoX series just to determine Bisu's present TvP prowress[sic]; other than FlaSh, FanTaSy is the only other viable measuring stick when it comes to seeing Bisu's true skills in the PvT match-up.
Who's hot? Bisu's not. - Page 12
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HitoriTomoyo
Canada264 Posts
I kind of want to see FanTaSy and Bisu play a BoX series just to determine Bisu's present TvP prowress[sic]; other than FlaSh, FanTaSy is the only other viable measuring stick when it comes to seeing Bisu's true skills in the PvT match-up. | ||
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night terrors
China1284 Posts
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ibreakurface
United States664 Posts
On January 17 2011 06:37 HitoriTomoyo wrote: Personally, Bisu's only method of redeeming his S-Class stature would be if he started to consistently beat top TvP players alongside FlaSh. He's always been inconsistent with his TvP and although he is scoring all-kills, he's barely had to run into any Terran players (which is especially surprising when one considers that he just AK-ed WeMade FOX, a team that's basically built around its Terran line-up). I kind of want to see FanTaSy and Bisu play a BoX series just to determine Bisu's present TvP prowress[sic]; other than FlaSh, FanTaSy is the only other viable measuring stick when it comes to seeing Bisu's true skills in the PvT match-up. Even vs. fantasy it wouldn't be accurate, team-kills are volatile. Also, fox is a well rounded team, Roro, shine, midas, baby, mind, and pure. I wouldn't say they are terran centered. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On January 17 2011 04:26 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash adds nukes in TvT against the only person in the world ANYONE would consider a favorite over Flash. Anyhow, Flash is doing better than Bisu because he's got 2 more titles under his belt that he won last season. Bisu's performance will be worth recognizing when he can win 2 more titles. Preferably in the same season. It's a mockery that anyone thinks Bisu is better than Flash and this thread seems to be implying it like crazy. Flash used a nuke? Which game Please? | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On January 17 2011 06:37 HitoriTomoyo wrote: Personally, Bisu's only method of redeeming his S-Class stature would be if he started to consistently beat top TvP players alongside FlaSh. He's always been inconsistent with his TvP and although he is scoring all-kills, he's barely had to run into any Terran players (which is especially surprising when one considers that he just AK-ed WeMade FOX, a team that's basically built around its Terran line-up). I kind of want to see FanTaSy and Bisu play a BoX series just to determine Bisu's present TvP prowress[sic]; other than FlaSh, FanTaSy is the only other viable measuring stick when it comes to seeing Bisu's true skills in the PvT match-up. ... He wins all his games against terran this season including some against some pretty good opponents(Really, Baby, Sea) and he loses one game to the best TvP player on the proscene and suddenly he's inconsistent? Really? Are you sure you're not just blinded by bias? | ||
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Musoeun
United States4324 Posts
On January 17 2011 06:21 TwoToneTerran wrote: Right now, no one is better than Flash. I can't believe people even want to argue this. Better results is not a better player. As has been said, comparing Bisu to Flash? Lol. That you would take Stork and Fantasy over Flash is dumb as well. Flash is seriously the best player in the world and yes, even one "bad" season by his standards doesn't change that. But that's the problem: at some point better results are what makes someone a better player. And if we talk about best player right now, which I am doing, Bisu's results are just as good or better than Flash's, and Storks are even better. Yes, Flash gets more benefit of the doubt. Yes, Flash is likely to do as well or better as those two when the next season of SLs rolls around, or even as PL continues. But there's definite doubt right now who the best player is - Flash and Jaedong have momentum from older results, but Bisu and Stork have recently looked just as good, and fantasy is right behind those four with Hydra right behind him. You're trying to define "best player" as... I don't even know how you're trying to define it, exactly. Is Flash the best player ever? Of course. But that's something determined by SL titles, finals, solid PL performance over the long haul, and when most of us talk about "Who's the best player?" we mean, "Who's playing best right now?", where "right now" is a matter of a couple months if not a few weeks. By that standard - the common one - is Flash's performance at this time the best there is around? I think Stork looks better: I think Bisu looks more unstoppable (except his PvT, asdfweafavea). All I'm saying is it's debatable: right now, Flash has challengers, even if it's mostly his own fault for epic failing out of the starleagues (And then of course there's Jaedong, who's probably the favorite to win the MSL because I don't trust Stork's PvZ in a finals and if Stork manages to lose before that JD should roflstomp anybody else. But Bisu and Flash are probably both favored against Jaedong right now, though I personally think we're back to the Bisu wins the single PL game, JD wins the BoX standard we used to have.) | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
In his game vs Skyhigh If you just want to watch the nuke, its in part 2, 13:34. + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH_o0frAYHU | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On January 17 2011 06:52 moopie wrote: In his game vs Skyhigh If you just want to watch the nuke, its in part 2, 13:34. + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH_o0frAYHU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfarEvhbn18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlifW_Zpdvs Thank You  On Topic: Just saw some o Bisu's games against MBC His PvZ is looking great. His TvP... i still can;t tell it seems as if its god, but Baby imo played badly. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On January 17 2011 07:11 GinDo wrote: Thank You On Topic: Just saw some o Bisu's games against MBC His PvZ is looking great. His TvP... i still can;t tell it seems as if its god, but Baby imo played badly. His only vT flaw was really that failed recall against Flash, and he said he was just having a pretty bad moment when he messed up. His PvT is definitely solid albeit very very standard. | ||
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Yxes2211
United States1587 Posts
 Flash StorkBisu JaedongJust because Flash and Stork beat Bisu, and I would still favor Flash over Stork. Can anyone blame me? It's not that I don't think Stork could win, I just think the odds are in Flash's favor no matter how minor. Secondly, Stork smashed Bisu in a Bo3 so he should undoubtedly be above him, and both Stork and Bisu roflstomped my boy Jaedong. Comparisons can be made about win records, but when you look at head to head records, I still say Flash deserves numero uno. And there is very little argument to put JD above the other three (and as a fanboy I've tried to find something). Simply put Flash is still playing well despite poor results from Terrans recently, he's still the scariest player, he can't help it if he gets sent out last and gets less wins. Individual leagues being the exception, but come on guys, the guy was in dual finals for a year, cut him some slack for a small bump. | ||
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Musoeun
United States4324 Posts
Top Ten ELO (2011/01/16), distance from personal peak Player - ELO - Peak - Diff Stork - 2313 - 2313 - 0Stats - 2183 - 2194 - 9Hydra - 2219 - 2231 - 12RorO - 2186 - 2213 - 27Jaedong - 2325 - 2378 - 53Flash - 2383 - 2443 - 60Bisu - 2305 - 2366 - 61Light - 2182 - 2250 - 68Fantasy - 2236 - 2310 - 74Kal - 2185 - 2267 - 82+ Show Spoiler [All "Good" Players] + Where "good" is defined by my special metric of all players ELO-ranked above the the highest-ranked player with a losing record in non-special leagues. Stork - 2313 - 2313 - 0Snow - 2160 - 2160 - 0Modesty - 2124 - 2124 - 0Tyson - 2104 - 2109 - 5Jaehoon - 2093 - 2098 - 5Stats - 2183 - 2194 - 9Hydra - 2219 - 2231 - 12great - 2143 - 2163 - 20Bogus - 2129 - 2149 - 20s2 - 2120 - 2146 - 26RorO - 2186 - 2213 - 27HoGiL - 2097 - 2125 - 28Jaedong - 2325 - 2378 - 53HyuN - 2100 - 2153 - 53Flash - 2383 - 2443 - 60Horang2 - 2103 - 2163 - 60Bisu - 2305 - 2366 - 61Shine - 2177 - 2238 - 61BaBy - 2169 - 2232 - 63Light - 2182 - 2250 - 68Neo.G_Soulkey - 2132 - 2202 - 70Fantasy - 2236 - 2310 - 74ZerO - 2161 - 2237 - 76Kal - 2185 - 2267 - 82Mind - 2114 - 2199 - 85Iris - 2150 - 2237 - 87free[gm] - 2161 - 2255 - 94BeSt - 2181 - 2283 - 102Calm - 2179 - 2287 - 108Leta - 2146 - 2263 - 117Midas - 2155 - 2274 - 119Sea - 2146 - 2268 - 122Kwanro - 2117 - 2251 - 134Yes, neither of these lists proves everything, and I'm making no argument from either. I just like numbers. Carry on. | ||
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Ethelis
United States2396 Posts
On January 17 2011 06:36 ibreakurface wrote: Lol, bisu fanboys are great. Flash is hands down the best player. There is no point in defending that fact, and if you disagree with it you are a fool. ^I lol'd. Flash will walk over bisu everyday, any day. I don't care if bisu played a more solid early game or has a better worker split, he will lose to flash. You're not understanding my point. im not arguing that Bisu is close to beating Flash atm, but he's not a punching bag (or as big as a punching bag) as before. It looks like he's making noticeable albeit minor improvements to his PvT (and he has his confidence back). Considering his PvT has been his weakest MU, if he keeps improving he can have a pretty nasty PvT, although more because of his mechanics, nothing like Stork who knows it inside and out. | ||
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HitoriTomoyo
Canada264 Posts
On January 17 2011 06:42 ibreakurface wrote: Even vs. fantasy it wouldn't be accurate, team-kills are volatile. Also, fox is a well rounded team, Roro, shine, midas, baby, mind, and pure. I wouldn't say they are terran centered. Then who would be a good measuring stick? I understand that team-kills are unpredictable but I can't really think of any other Terran besides FlaSh and FanTaSy that would solidly reveal Bisu's present PvT capabilities. I know FOX is a deep team, I guess I worded that wrong. What I meant to get across was my personal surprise at Bisu facing a single Terran (BaBy) when FOX could have practically thrown at least one other Terran against Bisu instead of throwing Pure at him (Shine was somewhat understandable). Not that I'm trying to claim that Mind or Midas would have fared off any better than Pure against Bisu, I'm just a bit surprised that they didn't try to knock out Bisu by playing towards his weakness. On January 17 2011 06:47 Lightwip wrote: ... He wins all his games against terran this season including some against some pretty good opponents(Really, Baby, Sea) and he loses one game to the best TvP player on the proscene and suddenly he's inconsistent? Really? Are you sure you're not just blinded by bias? I'm not trying to be blinded by bias, but it's somewhat hard to use Sea, BaBy, and Really as decent measuring sticks when their recent TvP records/performances are taken into considerations. I know that the aforementioned players are skilled in the match-up, but judging the quality of their recent performances, it becomes difficult to specifically ascertain as to what should be credited for Bisu's recent TvP victories: Bisu suddenly resurging in his (historically) weakest match-up when he hasn't really changed his playstyle in that match-up, or the semi-slump that the majority of his recent Terran opponents have fallen into? It can be a mixture of both reasons, though I personally see more of the latter in the mix than the former. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On January 17 2011 06:51 Musoeun wrote: But that's the problem: at some point better results are what makes someone a better player. And if we talk about best player right now, which I am doing, Bisu's results are just as good or better than Flash's, and Storks are even better. Yes, Flash gets more benefit of the doubt. Yes, Flash is likely to do as well or better as those two when the next season of SLs rolls around, or even as PL continues. But there's definite doubt right now who the best player is - Flash and Jaedong have momentum from older results, but Bisu and Stork have recently looked just as good, and fantasy is right behind those four with Hydra right behind him. You're trying to define "best player" as... I don't even know how you're trying to define it, exactly. Is Flash the best player ever? Of course. But that's something determined by SL titles, finals, solid PL performance over the long haul, and when most of us talk about "Who's the best player?" we mean, "Who's playing best right now?", where "right now" is a matter of a couple months if not a few weeks. By that standard - the common one - is Flash's performance at this time the best there is around? I think Stork looks better: I think Bisu looks more unstoppable (except his PvT, asdfweafavea). All I'm saying is it's debatable: right now, Flash has challengers, even if it's mostly his own fault for epic failing out of the starleagues (And then of course there's Jaedong, who's probably the favorite to win the MSL because I don't trust Stork's PvZ in a finals and if Stork manages to lose before that JD should roflstomp anybody else. But Bisu and Flash are probably both favored against Jaedong right now, though I personally think we're back to the Bisu wins the single PL game, JD wins the BoX standard we used to have.) Flash was considered the best player for a long time. A few months ago he was declared bonjwa and there was no doubt in anyones mind that he was the best player. If you look at his wins/losses from TLPD, you can see no change. Still mostly wins (about 80%). Nothing has changed, he always lost a few games here and there. So why is he suddenly perhaps not the best anymore? Did someone dethrone him or something that I missed? Did ssak dethrone him or something? Because that was obviously a fluke. The next game they played flash dominated him pretty easily. Then he continued to beat SKT alone and Entus' lineup snow, leta and skyhigh which are all terran killers. Flash never had 100% wins. He's usually around 80% and nothing has changed. | ||
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Trowabarton756
United States870 Posts
On January 17 2011 07:33 xMiragex wrote: You're not understanding my point. im not arguing that Bisu is close to beating Flash atm, but he's not a punching bag (or as big as a punching bag) as before. It looks like he's making noticeable albeit minor improvements to his PvT (and he has his confidence back). Considering his PvT has been his weakest MU, if he keeps improving he can have a pretty nasty PvT, although more because of his mechanics, nothing like Stork who knows it inside and out. What if Stork taught Bisu PvT and Bisu taught Stork PvZ  it'd be like the two finally merged into an archon! The amount of rape would be indescribable. | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
On January 17 2011 07:47 Trowabarton756 wrote: What if Stork taught Bisu PvT and Bisu taught Stork PvZ it'd be like the two finally merged into an archon! The amount of rape would be indescribable.I believe Bisu and BeSt have been working on that for a couple years now... no go so far. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On January 17 2011 07:53 moopie wrote: I believe Bisu and BeSt have been working on that for a couple years now... no go so far. Apparently Bisu is better than Best in practice but he still has some sort of tendency for throwing away his army into tanks. | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
On January 17 2011 07:57 Lightwip wrote: Apparently Bisu is better than Best in practice but he still has some sort of tendency for throwing away his army into tanks. Yeah I read that BS too, I don't buy it though. Its great to be modest and all, but Bisu's vT doesn't hold a candle to BeSt's macro, and BeSt couldn't pull off Bisu's vZ if his life depended on it. | ||
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Musoeun
United States4324 Posts
On January 17 2011 07:44 StylishVODs wrote: So why is he suddenly perhaps not the best anymore? Did someone dethrone him or something that I missed? Did ssak dethrone him or something? Because that was obviously a fluke. The next game they played flash dominated him pretty easily. Then he continued to beat SKT alone and Entus' lineup snow, leta and skyhigh which are all terran killers. Flash never had 100% wins. He's usually around 80% and nothing has changed. I'm not saying he's not the best (okay, I am, I think Stork's better atm and Bisu might be), but what I'm trying to say above all is that it's not insane to think somebody might be better. You say, "Did ssak dethrone him"? That's part of it. Flash lost (at least) three games that should have been gimmes - Ssak, Classic, and Hyuk, knocking him out of both leagues. This was stereotypical Flash back when he was you-ought-to-be-the-best-player-in-the-world-but-you-lose-dumb-games-Flash. In the meantime, although Jaedong took a similar dive he did get through the MSL (and is a favorite, though his PL performance is a little behind), and Bisu and Stork both have stepped up their game in a big way: Bisu got knocked out of leagues by actual quality players (Shine, Stork), while Stork is favored to win the OSL, and 2nd favorite behind Jaedong in the MSL. So between Flash failing (in patented non-bonjwa-Flash fashion) and other players stepping up, there's doubt. That's all I want to get people to admit. If you think Flash is still the best, that okay, but please admit there's legitimate room for debate - which people like TTT won't. I can totally respect an argument like this: On January 17 2011 07:20 Yxes2211 wrote: I'd rate TaekBangLeeSsang like this: FlashStorkBisuJaedongJust because Flash and Stork beat Bisu, and I would still favor Flash over Stork. Can anyone blame me? It's not that I don't think Stork could win, I just think the odds are in Flash's favor no matter how minor. Secondly, Stork smashed Bisu in a Bo3 so he should undoubtedly be above him, and both Stork and Bisu roflstomped my boy Jaedong... Though as I mention I disagree. I think Stork's #1 and would beat Flash - but he might lose, and it might come down to the map. Depending what you think of Bisu he's either #2 or #3 with Flash in the other spot. But it's very very tight at the top, for the first time in a while, and some Flash fans don't seem to be able to deal with this. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On January 17 2011 08:00 moopie wrote: Yeah I read that BS too, I don't buy it though. Its great to be modest and all, but Bisu's vT doesn't hold a candle to BeSt's macro, and BeSt couldn't pull off Bisu's vZ if his life depended on it. Bisu has a higher ELO peak vT than Best, and which player is S-class? I certainly believe it. | ||
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