I've been lurking this website for a long time now (even though for some of your standards probably a short time, that is 2 years) and so far I've only made a few minor comments on this page (number 1 was a 'thank you' in the Small VOD Thread, of course)
Now the reason I'm posting this is that I'm feeling a little upset right now - did TL.net really become this? There are more people watching Responses girlfriend (no offense, Response is awesome) play the SC2 campaign @ ~ 15 APM, than there are people watching remag (a B- protoss as you for sure know ) play on ICCUP. There are more people watching some random dude (diamond league, but still @ 60 APM) watch his units fight, than there are people watching high level (or midlevel) broodwar games. There are more people watching Lz.Gamer (again no offense, Lz.Gamer is also awesome) ladder, than there are people watching the OSL (Damn Stork is so cool)
Having met SCBW only two years ago, i might not be as fed up with it as some of you guys, and for sure as a D+ protoss player I probably have way less time spent with it, but honestly SC2 is no substitude for me. I will play SCBW for years to come, and honestly I think it will be the last game I'll play (I mean seriously, I'm a 23 year old math and physics Master, starting my PhD in a year. I can't play every new game ).
I didn't want to post this in the "downfall of the common broodwar player" thread (was this the name, oh well, sth like that) because I'm not mad at SC2 (and it seems like a lot of people in this thread are). Having played the Beta, I admit that it is a tempting low APM alternative (hell I, was in Diamond, fighting in the top 10). I just hope I'm not the only one feeling like this, and that what we're experiencing right now is just a SC2 hype. Many things I have yet to learn in Broodwar, and I think I'll ladder a little right now!
Maybe this should rather be a blog? Anyway thx for reading and greetings from Germany.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edit: Thx for all the great responses, I thought I'll sum up some of the best (trying to cover all opinions). Damn, I'm treating this like a blog, I should seriously get banned for this. I'll try to contact everyone that wants to play a game.
On July 29 2010 04:27 Chill wrote: My children, please fucking stop making threads about how you are pissed that Brood War is dying and so on and so forth. It's getting tiring, and my old bones ache.
On July 29 2010 04:36 alexpnd wrote: I play iccup.
On July 29 2010 05:35 See.Blue wrote: The amount of snobbery in here is almost painful. I love BW, its was like my childhood, but honestly SC2 is off to an even better start than SC1 was. Who knows where it'll end up in a comparable amount of time.
On July 29 2010 05:57 FabledIntegral wrote: Game came out YESTERDAY.
That's not very hard to comprehend T_T.
On July 29 2010 06:03 Murderotica wrote: I feel the same way you do bro. Check the recent SC2 news post comments to see many like-minded people.
On July 29 2010 06:44 PoP wrote: I'm personally quite a bit disappointed/sad that people like Day[9] or Artosis, no matter how amazing they have been and still are for the community, have apparently completely forgotten about BW, and keep referring to it as "the old Starcraft".
On July 29 2010 09:19 ranma1202 wrote: I tell you one thing. Since my wifi at home sucks, I got to go to school everytime I watch the ProLeague. It is 1 hour sooner here than korea, so for matches at 6pm, I might have to stay till 10-11pm in a damn cottage at school. But I don't mind it, I still do. I'm sharing the wifi at home, which I told u, sucks. It only allows me to play 1on1, no more 3v3 Hunters, so I do iccup only (but I'm only D/D-). So again, I bring my laptop to school, sitting alone in that fucking cottage and play 3v3 with my friends at weekends. Lame hah? But I still do.
On July 29 2010 04:54 Megalisk wrote:But as long as the proscene survives, I am happy :3.
This. If/when that dies... Well maybe then I can do something useful with my life? XD
On July 29 2010 11:28 seRapH wrote: I will not leave brood war until Bisu leaves. I will not leave brood war until Best leaves. I will not leave brood war until Midas leaves. I will not leave brood war until forgg leaves. I will not leave brood war until July leaves. I will not leave brood war until s2 leaves.
the day i leave brood war is the day i leave teamliquid >=(
On July 29 2010 04:27 Chill wrote: My children, please fucking stop making threads about how you are pissed that Brood War is dying and so on and so forth. It's getting tiring, and my old bones ache.
Wait till you hit the ripe old age of 26.... you will barely be able to lift a happy meal to enjoy them mcnuggets. Nyoken will tell ya.
On July 29 2010 17:41 Carnac wrote: I stopped really playing BW actively like 2.5 years ago (or maybe even more?) and only watched some pro games (on a less regular basis that I used to before) as well as TL events. Even when I was playing BW it was mostly pretty casual, I mean I played BWCL for a couple of years, but I never laddered much. I don't think I played more than 100 iCCup and more than 500 PGTour games over all those years, never really was my thing to ladder a lot.
Right now I am playing the SC2 campaign, but I don't think I will get serious about playing SC2. Probably just some casual 2v2 & 3v3. It's a great game in its own right and I can understand why people are playing it, but it will never be as special as BW is to me. Even if SC2 were a better game than BW it could never be as special: BW is the game I have played the most in my life, and there will never be a game that I will play half as much as I have played BW. Hell, one of the first things I did when I went online for the first time in my life was to log onto Battle.net, and nothing has shaped the online part of my life more than BW.
I'm using a trial Sc2 key and i will got my real key in like two days so i will be playing some Sc2 for a while ( mostly campaign / noobash / playing with friends ) but i will NEVER completly quit bw. Nothing can beat the flow of a good 3x3 Hunter
And yes that would make a perfect blog. Also big thanks to Remag and his stream <3
When SC2 started bubbling and I didn't have the old feeling of the moth to the flame, I realized that I'm not a fan of videogames or even starcraft. Just Brood War.
I hate to admit that SC is a better game...but I am playing SC2 T___T It just came out and is new =/
I still watch KOR BW streams, though Ive never watched high level foreigners and I never watch diamond players play SC2. SC2 is just not as appealing to watch ^^
Everyone is just excited for the new game and want to watch it more than the old game (like me since i pre-ordered it and i am still waiting) maybe the broodwar fans are waiting for the sc2 phase to slow down and are just hiding right now
i love reponse's stream! and stork IS awesome indeed. i'm actually playing bw with more excitement and enthusiasm than ever before.. i think after some time the amount of attention to the two will move to more reasonable levels persay, but i mean - like it's been said, there's no reason anyone should feel obligated to pick between the two.
I still play BW. I meant to pick up sc2 but I haven't gotten around to it. As a matter of fact, I'll do it right now! Thanks. And BW is still lots and lots of fun for me!
well im planning to eventualyl get sc2 for the campaign and ums whne i get a computer good enoguh to run it etc lol but not gonna super follow it or whatever.
My children, please fucking stop making threads about how you are pissed that Brood War is dying and so on and so forth. It's getting tiring, and my old bones ache.
I'll probably play more SC2 now, but i will NEVER EVER quit SC1 completely.
SC1 is a better game but SC2 is easier and fits the casuals better (Im a casual). Since all i do in Brood War is play vs comps with friends or mass phantom games SC2 is better for me. 14 player Phantom games in SC2 will be so effin' awesome
Also, i will continue watching the korean SC1 scene as it is more fun then actually playing
Buying SC2 for the campaign mode, and to play multiplayer with a couple friends who have it. However, I'll definitely still watch the Korean Leagues (a lot more interesting to watch compared to SC2 currently, but who knows, it may improve), play BW here and there, and tell people it's still the better game :3
On July 29 2010 04:27 Chill wrote: My children, please fucking stop making threads about how you are pissed that Brood War is dying and so on and so forth. It's getting tiring, and my old bones ache.
I'm pretty sure that the people who make this threads want BW to die . Every time i see this kind of threads i get the feeling i'm beeing trolled by some SC2 player who probably hasn't even played or watched competitive BW or someone who wants BW to die so that SC2 will take over as fast as possible .
Chill Canada. July 29 2010 04:27. Posts 15786 PM Profile Blog Quote # My children, please fucking stop making threads about how you are pissed that Brood War is dying and so on and so forth. It's getting tiring, and my old bones ache.
Chill is right (of course he is, being totally awesome) - this is just another "I'm sad because broodwar is dying thread". But actually I'm kinda sad, because I fear just that.
Thx anyway for all the people showing flag for the greatest game ever. Maybe this thread should just be closed
On July 29 2010 04:27 Chill wrote: My children, please fucking stop making threads about how you are pissed that Brood War is dying and so on and so forth. It's getting tiring, and my old bones ache.
I'm pretty sure that the people who make this threads want BW to die . Every time i see this kind of threads i get the feeling i'm beeing trolled by some SC2 player who probably hasn't even played or watched competitive BW or someone who wanst BW to die so that SC2 will take over as fast as possible .
This and what Chill said. Seriously, what's the point of even making this thread? There's still BW games to be played, especially in professional level. As long as there's professional BW in the scene on TV and elsewhere with much popularity like Korea, BW will be still played, no matter what. I bet few months from now, all of you SC2 fanatics will come crying to BW again realizing what a mistake it was to ditch SC1 or for the SC2 only people who were blind, they would be in denial...
broheim, sc2 came out two days ago, of course people are going to be playing it more, it's been 12 years...things will settle down in a while, and I feel like BW will always have a home in korea
Theres still ~1200 people on iccup at all times, thats more than when the beta was out. Bw is not dying, its just "going away for a little while". But as long as the proscene survives, I am happy :3.
Do you remember when warcraft 3 came out? Alot of scbw players switched to it for a while, and most came back. I believe the same thing will happen with sc2, alot of scbw people are playing it and then coming back to the beloved scbw.
I played during the closed beta and was a low diamond league 1v1/2v2 player and i allready got bored of sc2, perhaps the next expansion or time will shape it better, but currently it feels awfully straight forward. I am very interested in sc2 customs/singleplayer and i believe alot of others feel the same way, and stop massing sc2 within a month.
Personally i view d3 as a bigger threat because most bw players are getting old and casuality starts to seem like a fun choice.
I got SC2 to see what it was like and played a few games online... 90% was some guy cheesing me... with APM of like 1 (jk but srsly 90% cheese!). Moreover... SC2 is slow paced as all hell... i just find it boring. The reason I think the majority of TL community has switched to SC2 is because the majority of TL community couldn't cut in BW. BW is just such a hard game by comparison. Each match-up has several different BO's, micro is a bitch, macro is a bitch, the AI is constantly working against you, and finally it's the most frustrating game to get rolled in (at least for me).
By comparison, SC2 is slower, u can have 1 multi-purpose build for every MU (at least for terran, and if u don't believe me go MnM every game and tell me if you seriously didn't have a fighting chance each time), and of course the you have a much larger noob community which makes online competition easier.
That being said, SC2 is fun in it's own regards, as far as custom games go and campaign, but online is still BW dominated You'll see, unless the Boxer of SC2 appears, online play is going to dwindle in the next year
I'm still very much into Brood War, though what's hard is finding people to play with--I don't mean getting on ICCup and finding randoms. Most of my friends (who played SCBW) moved on to SC2, and the few that still play BW are either not much of a challenge, too good, or rarely play. And the BW battle.net usually lags to hard for even a BGH game.
The amount of snobbery in here is almost painful. I love BW, its was like my childhood, but honestly SC2 is off to an even better start than SC1 was. Who knows where it'll end up in a comparable amount of time.
I still remember the golden age of BW streams with the awesome A, A+ level streams with Ret, Nongmin, StryKer (or w/e it was called) and many more.. ahh those were so good!
On July 29 2010 05:35 See.Blue wrote: The amount of snobbery in here is almost painful. I love BW, its was like my childhood, but honestly SC2 is off to an even better start than SC1 was. Who knows where it'll end up in a comparable amount of time.
It's off to a better start because of the SC1 foundation it had to leap off of.
I dunno the issue I see is that BW simply had that exact mix of bugs and timing that allowed it to flourish in Korea. I really think BW is an outlier that will not be repeated in the near future.
On July 29 2010 04:54 Megalisk wrote: Theres still ~1200 people on iccup at all times, thats more than when the beta was out. Bw is not dying, its just "going away for a little while". But as long as the proscene survives, I am happy :3.
Yessss. I don't have a comp that can run SC2 anywho, so for the meantime, I'm still playing BW.
This OSL is stacked, gonna be so many good games, and I can't wait for them! MSL and PL are awesome too, but I'm really excited about the OSL.
One thing I will give to SC2 is the fact that you are put up against random people, and you won't get kicked/ your opponent won't leave the game lobby (That's why I never play BW except with friends, ICCUP is a hostile environment).
On July 29 2010 04:27 Chill wrote: My children, please fucking stop making threads about how you are pissed that Brood War is dying and so on and so forth. It's getting tiring, and my old bones ache.
Why do you need to be condescending? Not everyone is coming from a position of being pissed. Is it unreasonable to expect fans of SC to be saddened or frustrated when their community shrinks? Is it unreasonable for these same fans to vent their feelings in a forum that is meant to foster opinions from such a community?
Most of all, I would expect you, who dedicated so much time to the original game and helped grow the community and having been appreciated by this same community, to understand the frustration felt by many at this time. I think a lot of people who feel this way aren't just being arrogant about which game is better; they just want others from the same community to understand why they feel this way and have some compassion. How much emotional investment have members of this community put into this game and for how long? Is it unreasonable for people to be saddened and frustrated when they see a majority, and more importantly, prominent members of the community bounce so quickly from one game to the next?
I recognize that SC2 will bring the starcraft universe into prominence, but I hope the original Brood Wars gets the respect it deserves by the people who have contributed significantly to the community, instead of simply being forgotten.
On July 29 2010 04:27 Chill wrote: My children, please fucking stop making threads about how you are pissed that Brood War is dying and so on and so forth. It's getting tiring, and my old bones ache.
Why do you need to be condescending? Not everyone is coming from a position of being pissed. Is it unreasonable to expect fans of SC to be saddened or frustrated when their community shrinks? Is it unreasonable for these same fans to vent their feelings in a forum that is meant to foster opinions from such a community?
Most of all, I would expect you, who dedicated so much time to the original game and helped grow the community and having been appreciated by this same community, to understand the frustration felt by many at this time. I think a lot of people who feel this way aren't just being arrogant about which game is better; they just want others from the same community to understand why they feel this way and have some compassion. How much emotional investment have members of this community put into this game and for how long? Is it unreasonable for people to be saddened and frustrated when they see a majority, and more importantly, prominent members of the community bounce so quickly from one game to the next?
I recognize that SC2 will bring the starcraft universe into prominence, but I hope the original Brood Wars gets the respect it deserves by the people who have contributed significantly to the community, instead of simply being forgotten.
The frustration just comes off as a bunch of whining. There are tons of threads being made. It's more the feeling like it's a little child whining (to me at least) because anyone with half a brain should expect a massive decrease in BW coverage, etc. on the first day of release of the sequel. Even the first few months should be expected to have a mass migration. How can you not comprehend people might want to play the campaign of the new game, or just test out the sequel they've been waiting 10+ years for? Ridiculous to me.
These two games are very different. Play the one you like. Or play both (like I intend to do). This may destroy everything we had before BW, but there's nothing we can do about it. Just get the best out of it and have fun. Both are, unquestionably, great games.
On July 29 2010 06:24 FabledIntegral wrote: The frustration just comes off as a bunch of whining. There are tons of threads being made. It's more the feeling like it's a little child whining (to me at least) because anyone with half a brain should expect a massive decrease in BW coverage, etc. on the first day of release of the sequel. Even the first few months should be expected to have a mass migration. How can you not comprehend people might want to play the campaign of the new game, or just test out the sequel they've been waiting 10+ years for? Ridiculous to me.
It's not that people don't comprehend or expect the current situation, its that they still have feelings for the former community that is now shrinking. And yes, whining is how people express frustration. But what's wrong with whining? Not every reply or thread needs to be informative or entertaining. Isn't one the main purposes of these forums to allow people to express themselves? Can't you allow something to exist without agreeing with it?
I love BW because it is so damn challenging. It's frustrating but damn it is fucking fun. I just played a TvZ today where there was so much action going on that I couldn't keep up but the action was so fast paced I was having the time of my life playing SC. On the other hand while playing SC2 beta, I just can't get myself excited/having fun over the game.
I hope that BW will never die as a game of course but more importantly, the pro scene MUST live and I will be happy.
On July 29 2010 04:27 Chill wrote: My children, please fucking stop making threads about how you are pissed that Brood War is dying and so on and so forth. It's getting tiring, and my old bones ache.
Why do you need to be condescending? Not everyone is coming from a position of being pissed. Is it unreasonable to expect fans of SC to be saddened or frustrated when their community shrinks? Is it unreasonable for these same fans to vent their feelings in a forum that is meant to foster opinions from such a community?
Most of all, I would expect you, who dedicated so much time to the original game and helped grow the community and having been appreciated by this same community, to understand the frustration felt by many at this time. I think a lot of people who feel this way aren't just being arrogant about which game is better; they just want others from the same community to understand why they feel this way and have some compassion. How much emotional investment have members of this community put into this game and for how long? Is it unreasonable for people to be saddened and frustrated when they see a majority, and more importantly, prominent members of the community bounce so quickly from one game to the next?
I recognize that SC2 will bring the starcraft universe into prominence, but I hope the original Brood Wars gets the respect it deserves by the people who have contributed significantly to the community, instead of simply being forgotten.
It's just a writing style for humour. If you read the forums as much as I did, you would get tired of seeing the same posts over and over with no purpose.
I know not everyone is coming from the position of being pissed, which is why I attached "and so forth".
I understand the frustration perfectly and I'm sensitive to it, which is why I haven't banned or warned anyone for it. Can you understand my frustration with having to read a new thread every hour about how someone prefers BW to SC2? I don't care if you prefer oranges or pencils or men, just keep that together in one thread.
I'm personally quite a bit disappointed/sad that people like Day[9] or Artosis, no matter how amazing they have been and still are for the community, have apparently completely forgotten about BW, and keep referring to it as "the old Starcraft".
I genuinely believe that BW is the better (as in more brilliant, interesting, exciting, deep) game by quite a significant margin at the moment. And despite the gigantic eSports wave SC2 is generating and will be generating in the next few months, as a gamer and spectator I would just find it pretty fucking stupid if the worse game ended up digging the better one's grave because people think "2" renders "1" obsolete by default.
Just my two cents. This topic is kind of going in circles though.
On July 29 2010 06:24 FabledIntegral wrote: The frustration just comes off as a bunch of whining. There are tons of threads being made. It's more the feeling like it's a little child whining (to me at least) because anyone with half a brain should expect a massive decrease in BW coverage, etc. on the first day of release of the sequel. Even the first few months should be expected to have a mass migration. How can you not comprehend people might want to play the campaign of the new game, or just test out the sequel they've been waiting 10+ years for? Ridiculous to me.
It's not that people don't comprehend or expect the current situation, its that they still have feelings for the former community that is now shrinking. And yes, whining is how people express frustration. But what's wrong with whining? Not every reply or thread needs to be informative or entertaining. Isn't one the main purposes of these forums to allow people to express themselves? Can't you allow something to exist without agreeing with it?
Not when the OP is nothing new. If you want to express you feelings do it in a blog. That's what they are for.
If you don't understand what's the problem with people continuously making whining threads, then that's beyond me. And to top it off, whining threads about people "switching over," when they are trying a BRAND NEW game. There's nothing to say they've even switched over. I bet you most of the people that are still playing brood war a year from now will have at least played the SC2 campaign or gave the multiplayer a shot, for the sake of something new and wanting to know how the story plays out.
Thus no, I don't think it's appropriate whatever for anyone to voice their opinion about these matters given the context. And if it's necessary, make it a blog if you want to start a new thread.
The OP conjured exactly what i had in mind these past month or so, but didn't speak up because of all the misplaced angst on the topic. By the way, i am following Professional Starcraft as long as you, somewhat around 2 years. And no, i will not stop playing Broodwar in the foreseeable future, and still am pretty much amazed by variables and combinations imbued into it. Some time next month i will probably get SC2 and do this and that on it, but Broodwar shall remain a monolith in my gaming preference by far.
On July 29 2010 06:39 Chill wrote: It's just a writing style for humour. If you read the forums as much as I did, you would get tired of seeing the same posts over and over with no purpose.
I know not everyone is coming from the position of being pissed, which is why I attached "and so forth".
I understand the frustration perfectly and I'm sensitive to it, which is why I haven't banned or warned anyone for it. Can you understand my frustration with having to read a new thread every hour about how someone prefers BW to SC2? I don't care if you prefer oranges or pencils or men, just keep that together in one thread.
It's Brood War, not Brood Wars.
The purpose is simply expression. People don't just want others to understand their frustration, but for them to also feel compassion with regard to that understanding. As a moderator and prominent contributer, you are held up to a higher standard; you are expected to be able to overlook things that would normally incite frustration and be able to act according to principle. Forums should be governed by rules rather than feelings. If people are excessively starting new threads on the same topic when it is against the rules to do so, then action should be taken so that these rules are held in compliance.
I am still into BW 100%. I have become inactive lately, but this is because of life not sc2, i still love bw as much as I have for years. Whenever I can I still catch the streamed proleague and msl/osl matches (<3 all you bw streamers).
Its just that sc2 JUST came out, everyone is interested in the new and exciting campaign and other features, those things seem more exciting than bw atm for alot of people, because, you know..its new.
However I logged on bw yesterday (july 27th) and my f list was as active as usual. I dont think bw is going to be "replaced" anytime soon.
On July 29 2010 06:39 Chill wrote: It's just a writing style for humour. If you read the forums as much as I did, you would get tired of seeing the same posts over and over with no purpose.
I know not everyone is coming from the position of being pissed, which is why I attached "and so forth".
I understand the frustration perfectly and I'm sensitive to it, which is why I haven't banned or warned anyone for it. Can you understand my frustration with having to read a new thread every hour about how someone prefers BW to SC2? I don't care if you prefer oranges or pencils or men, just keep that together in one thread.
It's Brood War, not Brood Wars.
The purpose is simply expression. People don't just want others to understand their frustration, but for them to also feel compassion with regard to that understanding. As a moderator and prominent contributer, you are held up to a higher standard; you are expected to be able to overlook things that would normally incite frustration and be able to act according to principle. Forums should be governed by rules rather than feelings. If people are excessively starting new threads on the same topic when it is against the rules to do so, then action should be taken so that these rules are held in compliance.
And my action is prevention through the spread of knowledge. We agree.
Personally, I feel that finally I have reached a deeper understanding of BW. The timings, the resources, the units, etc. It's an understanding borne out of years and years of experience, and this newfound realization is a huge motivator to continue honing my skills.
So basically, you can look forward to my Zerg stream.
I play Broodwar. A fuckton of people play Broodwar.
On July 29 2010 06:44 PoP wrote: I'm personally quite a bit disappointed/sad that people like Day[9] or Artosis, no matter how amazing they have been and still are for the community, have apparently completely forgotten about BW, and keep referring to it as "the old Starcraft".
On July 29 2010 05:12 dukethegold wrote: We can argue all we want that Brood War is the better game. However, SCII is new.
Face it, humanity likes new stuff.
I imagine that the hardcore fans of Brood War will come back and keep playing. However, the vast majority that are casual fans will play SCII.
It doesn't help that Brood War is not Window 7 compatible either. I am experiencing color corruption issues with it since patch 1.6.
huh? i play BW on windows 7 all the time with no problems!
Are you using 64 bit?
I am not the only person who is having this problem either...I can play it, yes. But the interface and water colors are all messed up.
On July 29 2010 06:10 Nal_rAwr wrote: 300 GB RAM ftw
You are not serious, are you?
By the 1.2% chance that you are, you got some serious cash to burn. In fact, I didn't even know a motherboard that can contain 150 sticks of RAM exists! I imagine an ultralisk can make a comfortable nest out of that size!
On July 29 2010 06:10 Nal_rAwr wrote: 300 GB RAM ftw
You are not serious, are you?
By the 1.2% chance that you are, you got some serious cash to burn. In fact, I didn't even know a motherboard that can contain 150 sticks of RAM exists! I imagine an ultralisk can make a comfortable nest out of that size!
I've never been one to play Brood War because I'm really bad at it and don't have the will to improve. With that said, I still watch 90% of the Korean events, and have a strong passion for spectating. I was playing the BW campaign to prep myself for SCII, and now I'm playing the SCII campaign. Once I'm finished with it, I might try it on the next difficulty up, but it will probably just remained installed on my computer without seeing any use while I play other things/watch BW.
yes, i installed starcraft 2 this morning played 1 campaign mission and some challenges and logged off to play some BW. Got a bit bored of sc2 multiplayer througout beta, I'm fairly certain I'll be playing more BW than sc2 for awhile.
I tell you one thing. Since my wifi at home sucks, I got to go to school everytime I watch the ProLeague. It is 1 hour sooner here than korea, so for matches at 6pm, I might have to stay till 10-11pm in a damn cottage at school. But I don't mind it, I still do. I'm sharing the wifi at home, which I told u, sucks. It only allows me to play 1on1, no more 3v3 Hunters, so I do iccup only (but I'm only D/D-). So again, I bring my laptop to school, sitting alone in that fucking cottage and play 3v3 with my friends at weekends. Lame hah? But I still do. I did play SC2 beta and with high hopes of being something special like SC2. But now I see it, as I recall someone said it at TL: SC2 is just gonna last till WC4. Other than the storyline, the characters that I feel close to, it is completely disappointed me. So I stop playing it, and I still don't. Was so eager to buy 1 when heard of the news that SC2 will soon come out. But now, it is just "some other" game. I'll stick with my BW, at least till my daughter can play it.
I stopped playing BW a while ago and was just following the pro scene. I'm going to keep following the pro scene. I'm gonna get SC2 and will play through the campaign and perhaps have some fun with friends...
But I don't think it's a piece of shit compared to BW. SC2 will never be as good as BW.
On July 29 2010 06:10 Nal_rAwr wrote: yeah i'm staying on the BW train
i'm not gonna be getting SC2 for a while
maybe never
like how i played the shit out of melee but never got brawl because i didn't get a wii
same situation
300 GB RAM ftw
fuck i meant 300 MB RAM that confusion probably just destroyed what i was trying to say i'm saying i don't have the system to run the new game, in both SSBB and SC2
On July 29 2010 08:25 StRyKeR wrote: Fact: Fewer people play BW than before.
It's unfortunate, but it's not the end of BW.
Personally, I feel that finally I have reached a deeper understanding of BW. The timings, the resources, the units, etc. It's an understanding borne out of years and years of experience, and this newfound realization is a huge motivator to continue honing my skills.
So basically, you can look forward to my Zerg stream.
Im with Stryker. I won't stop playing bw - infact as long as I can find games on iccup (seems like the best time right now is during korean hours) I will continue playing. Since there aren't going to be many tournaments.. Or maybe there will be when people realize how lame sc2 is.. My goal is A or A+ on iccup vs koreans. Should be fun.
I still like BW a lot more as a game. Granted, I havn't given SC2 the chance it deserves, so I'll try the game out more. But I still really love BW and will continue to play it.
I just wish people would stop saying that BW is old and clunky and played out or whatever. That simply isn't true! BW is still a really beautiful game, so it really saddens me when people say that. I wish equally as much people who don't really play or haven't played BW to give it as much of a shot that I'll be willing to give SC2. I mean, you're really not limited to one choice.
As PoP said, I wish Artosis and Day[9] don't just write off BW. It still exists! It's still exciting! I understand that they want to hype SC2, but can't they hype just Starcraft in general? Please don't do it at the expensive of BW, it makes me wanna cry T_T.
I wish that ideally both communities will continue, or that one could help the other. But that still doesn't stop me from fearing the worst.
I'm into both, although I don't watch the SC2 streams very often. I still make an effort to catch every single Brood War event that I can that isn't later than 1 AM (pacific time), so it's a very small amount of BW I can still watch.
I'm into the campaign right now of SC2 and getting achievements and stuff but I'm going to try and play some ICCup during the week on Tau Cross. <3 Tau Cross
On July 29 2010 04:27 Chill wrote: My children, please fucking stop making threads about how you are pissed that Brood War is dying and so on and so forth. It's getting tiring, and my old bones ache.
Do I have your permission to make this my new quote? It made me laugh so hard lol.
And hes not pissed, hes sad ( I been playing BW and haven't stopped since the 1st beta phase ended!
as i said before in another thread like this..compare sc1 and sc2 to super smash melee and brawl competitive scene...brawl is all but dead, melee is fresh as ever
just keep playin the game you love and believe in your own community ^^
I will not leave brood war until Bisu leaves. I will not leave brood war until Best leaves. I will not leave brood war until Midas leaves. I will not leave brood war until forgg leaves. I will not leave brood war until July leaves. I will not leave brood war until s2 leaves.
the day i leave brood war is the day i leave teamliquid >=(
I play ICC, i watch osl/msl. There just isn't as much television/competition around sc2 yet. SC2 is new and shiny, but it remains to be seen if it will be able to last and become just as competitive ^^
After playing the SC2 campaign, I've been feeling a strong desire to replay the original campaign. Ugh, the characters, voice-acting, dialog and cinematics were all so much better in the original.
Also, I don't care about the SC2 "pro"-scene. I still follow BW progaming and find it infinitely more entertaining.
SC2 for some weird reason just don't capture my interest at all..... I don't know, maybe I'm weird...
Back when SC2 was still in the beta phases I played a few games, but every time I won, I don't get that satisfied feeling of victory like I do when I play bw... so yeah....I'll be playing bw for a long time to come~ xP
On July 29 2010 04:27 Chill wrote: My children, please fucking stop making threads about how you are pissed that Brood War is dying and so on and so forth. It's getting tiring, and my old bones ache.
Totally agree, please stop making retarded thread like this, the amount of active threads and progaming news for BW that is still coming out here SHOULD BE STRONG ENOUGH INDICATION THAT PEOPLE ARE STILL INTO BROODWARS.
I'm looking forward to not hearing from every player who made it into the Diamond league and before that Platinum. People seemed to assume that during a beta, when most of the people competing were not rts players at all, that getting to the top when you play the most competitive rts of all time (namely sc:bw) that this somehow meant that they were near semi-pro status. This is like competing in your local baseball/soccer/poker club/game etc and then thinking because you own there you're ready for Vegas or the highest limits online. As I said, I am looking forward now that the game is available to almost everyone out there, that we shall no longer be hearing from these self-proclaimed gosi (gosus?) who will likely end up slap bang in the middle or at least no higher than the 52% win mark.
Please note OP I enjoyed reading your post which was interesting and insightful and I am in no way referring to you here. I was thinking more of the brag blogs that we've had to read (or ignore) from every D to C- player who think they're suddenly White-Ra because they beat down a bunch of WoW players and kids who don't yet even know what the word macro means, let alone know how to do it.
On July 29 2010 14:16 Scarecrow wrote: I still watch and play in an active clan, bw ain't dead
I know right. Lets have a clanwar yo ~ :D
I doubt scarecrow will come back to this thread. So come msg me or him - op [TA] is the channel, [TA]Scarecrow, [TA]deL are the people to message. I am of course, [ta]Subversive
Not really. I will still watch this last season of OSL, MSL and Proleague though. I almost wanna say that I hate broodwar now because I just want Sc2 to replace it. It had its time and now it needs to make way for the new game.
On July 29 2010 04:27 Chill wrote: My children, please fucking stop making threads about how you are pissed that Brood War is dying and so on and so forth. It's getting tiring, and my old bones ache.
Wait till you hit the ripe old age of 26.... you will barely be able to lift a happy meal to enjoy them mcnuggets. Nyoken will tell ya.
On July 29 2010 04:08 ella_guru wrote: When SC2 started bubbling and I didn't have the old feeling of the moth to the flame, I realized that I'm not a fan of videogames or even starcraft. Just Brood War.
I have to admit watching good BW players duke it out just has a different feeling then watching SC2 players duke it out.
On July 29 2010 04:08 ella_guru wrote: When SC2 started bubbling and I didn't have the old feeling of the moth to the flame, I realized that I'm not a fan of videogames or even starcraft. Just Brood War.
I have to admit watching good BW players duke it out just has a different feeling then watching SC2 players duke it out.
Agreed. I probably will always play games, but my last great passion has been scbw and that isn't going to be replaced by sc2 or likely, ever.
On July 29 2010 04:08 ella_guru wrote: When SC2 started bubbling and I didn't have the old feeling of the moth to the flame, I realized that I'm not a fan of videogames or even starcraft. Just Brood War.
I have to admit watching good BW players duke it out just has a different feeling then watching SC2 players duke it out.
What I really want, so so badly, is to see good bw players duke it out in sc2. It can be frustrating seeing players like whitera making mistakes korean pros just wouldn't.
When sc2 reaches the level of play bw has, I don't think I'll ever watch bw again.
On July 29 2010 04:08 ella_guru wrote: When SC2 started bubbling and I didn't have the old feeling of the moth to the flame, I realized that I'm not a fan of videogames or even starcraft. Just Brood War.
I have to admit watching good BW players duke it out just has a different feeling then watching SC2 players duke it out.
Agreed. I probably will always play games, but my last great passion has been scbw and that isn't going to be replaced by sc2 or likely, ever.
Same, I have been playing tons of HoN and even started WoW lately but I started getting bored of them and am playing even less and less. In the end I find myself playing a few iccup games and watching more pro games on youtube/livestream than ever.
There's this whole "All the cool kids are sticking to broodwar dawg" thing going on, and while I respect that we all think it's a better game right now, It's totally not time to start freaking out. SC2 is the new hot shit. Of course people are going to be playing it and watching it.
A lot of people posting in here seemed to have not even given SC2 a chance ("played first mission, got bored, shit game -_-"). Totally give it a couple hours. The campaign is great and moderately challenging, and the multiplayer is fantastic. You're doing esports a favor by watching and playing it. As much as you love BW, it's archaic shit to a lot of people looking in from the outside. SC2 could get as big in NA as BW was in SK.
On July 29 2010 04:08 ella_guru wrote: When SC2 started bubbling and I didn't have the old feeling of the moth to the flame, I realized that I'm not a fan of videogames or even starcraft. Just Brood War.
I have to admit watching good BW players duke it out just has a different feeling then watching SC2 players duke it out.
What I really want, so so badly, is to see good bw players duke it out in sc2. It can be frustrating seeing players like whitera making mistakes korean pros just wouldn't.
When sc2 reaches the level of play bw has, I don't think I'll ever watch bw again.
I hope SC2 can get to that level but it seems like its still along ways off. I am sure there gonna throw new units in when they release the zerg expansion hopefully it will sake up the game so you can see alot of action through the all the stages of the game. I think for SC2 its the mid-game that kills me because it seems like most players back off then mass without really harassing because there isn't a lot of options.
Two different games.. I don't know why one has to give up on the old to play the new.. Personally I enjoy playing BW, and in a friend environment it can be so much fun. I also think that watching Broodwar is better.
I stopped really playing BW actively like 2.5 years ago (or maybe even more?) and only watched some pro games (on a less regular basis that I used to before) as well as TL events. Even when I was playing BW it was mostly pretty casual, I mean I played BWCL for a couple of years, but I never laddered much. I don't think I played more than 100 iCCup and more than 500 PGTour games over all those years, never really was my thing to ladder a lot.
Right now I am playing the SC2 campaign, but I don't think I will get serious about playing SC2. Probably just some casual 2v2 & 3v3. It's a great game in its own right and I can understand why people are playing it, but it will never be as special as BW is to me. Even if SC2 were a better game than BW it could never be as special to me: BW is the game I have played the most in my life, and there will never be a game that I will play half as much as I have played BW. Hell, one of the first things I did when I went online for the first time in my life was to log onto Battle.net to play BW, and nothing has shaped the online part of my life more than this game.
On July 29 2010 04:29 Cow wrote: Buying SC2 for the campaign mode, and to play multiplayer with a couple friends who have it. However, I'll definitely still watch the Korean Leagues (a lot more interesting to watch compared to SC2 currently, but who knows, it may improve), play BW here and there, and tell people it's still the better game :3
for example if I had 6 hours, I would play 4 and a half of StarCraft 2, and 1 and a half of brood war. Campaign is EPIC for anyone who hasn't had it, epic videos and cinematic.
Still play and stream broodwar, and I got no plans to buy SC2 after playing beta. Don't need two RTS-games, more than pleased with the one i got. Seems a lot harder to gain points now than it was when there were more activity (at least more foreigners) than it is now, but it's still fun. The only part that sucks a bit is that it's hard to find games at C- (and up)
If I see another thread like how people think BW is dying because of Artosis doesnt like BW anymore and how sc2 is gonna take over everything. I am gonna kill a kitten
If Broodwar is really the timeless game many claim, it will survive this transition. If not, then its' skeletal remains will soon litter the boneyard of forgotten games. Maybe it will live on for a while as a shadow of its' former self, its' ghostly profile fading slowly into the mists of time as one by one, its' tiny brotherhood of diehard fans drifts away.
But those true believers out there all know the truth--because its' vigorous life-force is fuelled by that miraculous and rejuvenating creativity of the human spirit! Nay, it shall not die! It shall live on for all time as the quintessence of harmony and balance amidst chaos; the serene and elegant order within disorder; the creator and destroyer of dreams; the uncommon; the exception; the extraordinary! NAY IT SHALL LIVE!
I just sunk like 160$ into the SC2 launch, I bought the game, had to get a new headset which ran me 80$ (What can I say, my bestbuy discount is pretty good) then the game was running so bad on LOW setting even though I had a video card with 512 DDR2 (or 3?) turns out is was the shittiest nvidia ever made, a G100. Just spent another 80$ on a new video card a Radeon 5450. I can run it on max which is great. But I honestly did it for the campaign and just doing some random shit with friends.
Just like a lot of others, SCII will never take another 12 years of my life, I acknowledge its a good game hence why I spent the money but to me its going to be a casual thing, I just find BW way more fun when I actually really want to be competitive. But I am sure its going to make a great esport and congrats on blizzard for actually making a worthy follow-up to a great game.
On July 29 2010 06:44 PoP wrote: I'm personally quite a bit disappointed/sad that people like Day[9] or Artosis, no matter how amazing they have been and still are for the community, have apparently completely forgotten about BW, and keep referring to it as "the old Starcraft".
What's worse is when Artosis actively tries to help to kill Brood War with his rumor-mongering over how this is going to be the last OSL. (I don't know if he's done anything else like that.)
I understand that he has been way way way more helpful to the BW community in the past than some random poster like me will ever be, but that doesn't change the fact that it just feels kind of like a betrayal.
And I really miss Day[9] dailies, as well as casts by Husky.
I kinda get this premonitory feeling that BW will become like some old man sport like cricket, and SC2 will be the new cool thing all the youngsters are into. Flash and Jaedong will be playing bw in a park at some old age like you'd see old men playing chess, talking in their old fashioned slang of their youth and relating grumblings about new times.
I still play iCCup, I'm doing better than any other season lol. I plan to play SC2 as well and will probable go toward it more and more to try and get good but I still love BW and SC2 will never replace it!
On July 29 2010 04:27 Chill wrote: My children, please fucking stop making threads about how you are pissed that Brood War is dying and so on and so forth. It's getting tiring, and my old bones ache.
Do I have your permission to make this my new quote? It made me laugh so hard lol.
And hes not pissed, hes sad ( I been playing BW and haven't stopped since the 1st beta phase ended!
edit: capitalized o in Do by accident.
I'm taking Chill's silence as a yes If you don't want me to make it my sig then just tell me Chill! Also lol@ the mcnuggets post. Made me laugh so hard.
For me, BW is still a great game but it is not as fun anymore as it used to be the last 10 years. I have played a lot of SC2 in the beta and I love it as well. I bought it and I think I will have a lot of fun with it. The most important thing is: Don't compare both games. Leave BW as it was, it will always be remembered as your favorite game ever. At least if you have played it for many years and are not new to the scene. Enjoy SC2 and if you feel like playing some nostalgic BW again then do this. But BW is not forgotten anymore. Although I don't play it anymore I still love to watch VODS because they are just highly entertaining.
On July 29 2010 19:29 Iplaythings wrote: If I see another thread like how people think BW is dying because of Artosis doesnt like BW anymore and how sc2 is gonna take over everything. I am gonna kill a kitten
My friend's cat just had 5 kittens. He is looking to give them away, and while I think he loves them I am prepared to let you take them for a very competitive price .
On July 29 2010 04:27 Chill wrote: My children, please fucking stop making threads about how you are pissed that Brood War is dying and so on and so forth. It's getting tiring, and my old bones ache.
On July 29 2010 19:29 Iplaythings wrote: If I see another thread like how people think BW is dying because of Artosis doesnt like BW anymore and how sc2 is gonna take over everything. I am gonna kill a kitten
On your first observation, look at it this way: you can watch a B- player stream every single day, but how often do you see the girlfriend of a forum member try SC? It's not that people necessarily always prefer it, it's a matter of margins.
i played alot of sc2 beta in phase 1, and when phase 2 came out, it felt as boring as playing a game at miniclip.com now im watching tons of bw vods and playing shitloads of HoN
On July 30 2010 13:05 Ideas wrote: i accidentally got back to C- on ICCUP and now i'm too afraid to play again becuase I just assume only Koreans are left and they take away my C- :O
Man I hate that feeling. That's what alts are for!
On July 30 2010 13:05 Ideas wrote: i accidentally got back to C- on ICCUP and now i'm too afraid to play again becuase I just assume only Koreans are left and they take away my C- :O
If you're a zerg player...speedling timing attack every game vs Terran. Works every time!
SC2 is not SC1, its a different game entirely with similar stuff, i think ppl just like it cuz its flashy atm, but it does have its own reason for its appeal
I've been watching SC1 games for a few years, long before I even registered an account here on TL. Right now I mainly play SC2 but I will always keep up with the SC:BW esports scene. Never been much of a competitive BW player.. but I have never gotten tired or bored of watching BW games. I'm actually watching a VOD right now lol.
The thing that made me a starcraft fan was the level of skill required to be good in this game so I still watch the korean A teamers and will watch it until is over.. so SC2 doesnt cut it for me so if broodwar dies I will retired xD
I've been playing BGH exclusively for 6 years now. Now if in 6 years I didn't get bored of a single fucking map, how will I ever get bored of the whole fucking game? (Hint: I won't.)
Decided since of all the commotion of SC2, i reinstalled SC1. I have to say I had a fucking blast, Sunken D, Nexus Wars, Evolves. It never get old.... Surprised to see a good deal of people still playing starcraft 1. Wonder when Blizzard decides to shut down Battle.net....
Ugh you guys make it sound like it's a religion and you can only have one. Why not play both BW and SC2? Is that such a crime? Maybe just play custom SC2 games with your friends? Why does change scare you people so much?
Man, iCCup is so hard now. I don't even try anymore. All I do is troll people with retarded builds every game like 1hatch lurk, 12pool 2hatch lurk into 2gas defilers, gas first into 1base carriers, dt drop into 2base carriers, etc.
On July 30 2010 13:05 Ideas wrote: i accidentally got back to C- on ICCUP and now i'm too afraid to play again becuase I just assume only Koreans are left and they take away my C- :O
If you're a zerg player...speedling timing attack every game vs Terran. Works every time!
"You can't honestly feel good winning like this" ^^ But about your OP: I haven't gotten SC2 because the economy blows and I'm in(possibly) the worst state in this country and can't find a job. But when the time comes I'll get SC2 if not for the story. I still want to invest more time into BW. I've been on the cup for less than a year and can't even get to D+!(I'm a terran...know my pain)
... until... maybe.... until.... Flash, JD, Stork, Nada, Reach, Bisu, FBH... and our little YUM BO SUNG moves to SC2. Then I will move.
I agree. After playing Starcraft 2 and watching some SC2 replays(with commentary), I felt nostalgic about SC1(still am). I mean I know it's still going on but eventually(or maybe not? I do not know) SC1 will be gone and all we have left is SC2(no reavers, valkyries, dark archons, insane ghost micro lockdown on 8 BCs, and/or etc). Well I'm not sure and it probably won't be as bad as it sounds(as long as everyone moves to SC2, if SC1 ever does die off).
[If Blizzard ever releases all SC1 units(for the map editor), soundsets, and portraits, I'll totally add all those units in for some fun SC1 + SC2 unit custom melee map fun.]
I don't play either SC or SC2, but just watch VODs and replays. As a spectator sport, Brood War is much better, and takes more skill. When BW progamers move to SC2 and play competitively at the highest level, IMO, will be probably the only way to see if it's worthy of BW's prestige as an e-sport.
On July 31 2010 16:29 KrAzYfoOL wrote: Ugh you guys make it sound like it's a religion and you can only have one. Why not play both BW and SC2? Is that such a crime? Maybe just play custom SC2 games with your friends? Why does change scare you people so much?
they're mostly students who can't afford a new PC to play new games just a hunch but probably on the money in most cases
On July 29 2010 06:44 PoP wrote: I'm personally quite a bit disappointed/sad that people like Day[9] or Artosis, no matter how amazing they have been and still are for the community, have apparently completely forgotten about BW, and keep referring to it as "the old Starcraft".
On July 29 2010 06:44 PoP wrote: I'm personally quite a bit disappointed/sad that people like Day[9] or Artosis, no matter how amazing they have been and still are for the community, have apparently completely forgotten about BW, and keep referring to it as "the old Starcraft".
THIS.
Especially day[9]
Maybe because there are very few people who play BW?
On July 31 2010 16:29 KrAzYfoOL wrote: Ugh you guys make it sound like it's a religion and you can only have one. Why not play both BW and SC2? Is that such a crime? Maybe just play custom SC2 games with your friends? Why does change scare you people so much?
they're mostly students who can't afford a new PC to play new games just a hunch but probably on the money in most cases
haha, hope this is some awful bait, because that's well stupid.
reminds me a lot of the cs 1.6 - cs:source-discussion. i play (played more like it) source, but i prefer bw.
On July 29 2010 06:44 PoP wrote: I'm personally quite a bit disappointed/sad that people like Day[9] or Artosis, no matter how amazing they have been and still are for the community, have apparently completely forgotten about BW, and keep referring to it as "the old Starcraft".
THIS.
Especially day[9]
Maybe because there are very few people who play BW?
Well, for people who loved brood war and have spent so much time and energy into it, it's quite surprising that they stop giving a fuck once the next game is out.
Can't really imagine Flash saying "Fuck BW, there is a version which is newer and betterer, I'll never play this game again."
From someone like Idra or even Artosis, I can understand that the fact of not having 574767 koreans on top of your head without any hope of being ever better than tem, and finally having a chance of being the best with "fair" competition can be liberating.
I remember an interview of ForGG where he was asked what he would do when SC2 was coming out. He answered that he would play BW until it dies and always be faithful to that game. <3
On August 11 2010 20:39 dr.shrinker wrote: haha, hope this is some awful bait, because that's well stupid.
reminds me a lot of the cs 1.6 - cs:source-discussion. i play (played more like it) source, but i prefer bw.
if i had a dollar for every person who said 'i wish i could play sc2 but my comp SuXXXX' i'd be a rich man
those same people defend brood war to the hilt because they fear waking up to an empty iccup server one day , when they upgrade their pc they'll probably move on like the rest of us have
On July 29 2010 06:44 PoP wrote: I'm personally quite a bit disappointed/sad that people like Day[9] or Artosis, no matter how amazing they have been and still are for the community, have apparently completely forgotten about BW, and keep referring to it as "the old Starcraft".
THIS.
Especially day[9]
Maybe because there are very few people who play BW?
Well, for people who loved brood war and have spent so much time and energy into it, it's quite surprising that they stop giving a fuck once the next game is out.
Can't really imagine Flash saying "Fuck BW, there is a version which is newer and betterer, I'll never play this game again."
From someone like Idra or even Artosis, I can understand that the fact of not having 574767 koreans on top of your head without any hope of being ever better than tem, and finally having a chance of being the best with "fair" competition can be liberating.
I remember an interview of ForGG where he was asked what he would do when SC2 was coming out. He answered that he would play BW until it dies and always be faithful to that game. <3
They don't stop caring about BW, but their is new game out there and there are ton of new opportunities for them here. For example Day9 has been getting enormous amount of new people who want to get better at sc2.
Day9 and Artosis still tuning in to Brood war tournaments, but as far as producing new content goes it's better to focus on starcraft 2 because it's far more popular.
On August 11 2010 20:39 dr.shrinker wrote: haha, hope this is some awful bait, because that's well stupid.
reminds me a lot of the cs 1.6 - cs:source-discussion. i play (played more like it) source, but i prefer bw.
if i had a dollar for every person who said 'i wish i could play sc2 but my comp SuXXXX' i'd be a rich man
those same people defend brood war to the hilt because they fear waking up to an empty iccup server one day , when they upgrade their pc they'll probably move on like the rest of us have
No? Some people actually enjoy the game and prefer it over starcraft 2. Just because it's a newer game doesn't mean everyone likes it. Once again i can refer to the 1.6 / cs:s-discussion. Do you think everyone who plays 1.6 does it because they got a shitty computer?
i remember back in 96/97 i was a massive warcraft 2 fan , i never thought starcraft would be as good as warcraft 2.I didn't actually play starcraft until 3-4 months after it came out but when i did i put War2 down for good.How many of the people still siding with brood war have never even played SC2?
On August 11 2010 21:15 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: i remember back in 96/97 i was a massive warcraft 2 fan , i never thought starcraft would be as good as warcraft 2.I didn't actually play starcraft until 3-4 months after it came out but when i did i put War2 down for good.How many of the people still siding with brood war have never even played SC2?
I do not know that many that plays bw or sc2 for that matter, but I certanly know my own opinion. Played enough beta to tell I prefer bw, I don't even plan on getting sc2. Throwing out some bullshit about the ones that plays bw doesn't a good enough computer/money for one is pretty funny though, gotta admit.
On August 11 2010 21:15 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: i remember back in 96/97 i was a massive warcraft 2 fan , i never thought starcraft would be as good as warcraft 2.I didn't actually play starcraft until 3-4 months after it came out but when i did i put War2 down for good.How many of the people still siding with brood war have never even played SC2?
On August 11 2010 21:15 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: i remember back in 96/97 i was a massive warcraft 2 fan , i never thought starcraft would be as good as warcraft 2.I didn't actually play starcraft until 3-4 months after it came out but when i did i put War2 down for good.How many of the people still siding with brood war have never even played SC2?
i have. and yes, i was actually decent, though it was a while ago.
not even 4v4s or 3v3s in sc2 are as fun as they are in bw. + Show Spoiler +
On August 11 2010 21:15 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: i remember back in 96/97 i was a massive warcraft 2 fan , i never thought starcraft would be as good as warcraft 2.I didn't actually play starcraft until 3-4 months after it came out but when i did i put War2 down for good.How many of the people still siding with brood war have never even played SC2?
I do not know that many that plays bw or sc2 for that matter, but I certanly know my own opinion. Played enough beta to tell I prefer bw, I don't even plan on getting sc2. Throwing out some bullshit about the ones that plays bw doesn't a good enough computer/money for one is pretty funny though, gotta admit.
I played during the beta and was disappointed, my computer handles SC2 fine. I'm still into BW.
I dont know who said it, but watching SC2 isn't nearly as exciting as watching BW. BW has so many "OMG" moments such as, MINE DEBAK, PLAYGUUUU, awesome scarabs (and retarded scarabs), hold position lurkers, storms were more epic, recalls were more common, units were more microable. The list goes on and on. I hope that with the expansions for SC2 they bring in more units like this...because without them there's nothing for the korean casters to scream about.
On July 29 2010 06:44 PoP wrote: I'm personally quite a bit disappointed/sad that people like Day[9] or Artosis, no matter how amazing they have been and still are for the community, have apparently completely forgotten about BW, and keep referring to it as "the old Starcraft".
On July 31 2010 16:29 KrAzYfoOL wrote: Ugh you guys make it sound like it's a religion and you can only have one. Why not play both BW and SC2? Is that such a crime? Maybe just play custom SC2 games with your friends? Why does change scare you people so much?
they're mostly students who can't afford a new PC to play new games just a hunch but probably on the money in most cases
On July 29 2010 06:44 PoP wrote: I'm personally quite a bit disappointed/sad that people like Day[9] or Artosis, no matter how amazing they have been and still are for the community, have apparently completely forgotten about BW, and keep referring to it as "the old Starcraft".
THIS.
Especially day[9]
EXACTLY !!!
i think they are just trying to help it grow, i mean sc will always be a korean thing that foreigners can dream of, while sc2 is raking in huge cash wads. So i mean they are obviously not in it for money, but the game is the more popular now, and trying to mainstream it with those types of terms cant be that harmful to korean esports, but if you just meant bw in general, then i think yeah i guess it is kind of shitty.
I hope when the SC2 phase dies down, that day[9] would start doing some bw game analysis again, those were really informative and enjoyable to watch T.T.
bw is gonna die, sc2 will live, eventually, and also life sucks... so yeah please get over it already and stop making threads about how good bw is (regarding the war between SC2 and BW, and BW will prevail).
both games are good, but bw is old and gonna die soon, your feelings or your precious memories of bw won't change anything, we will all remember bw as best game ever and that's it please get over it...
On August 11 2010 22:48 -Desu- wrote: bw is gonna die, sc2 will live, eventually, and also life sucks... so yeah please get over it already and stop making threads about how good bw is.
both games are good, but bw is old and gonna die soon, your feelings or your precious memories of bw won't change anything, we will all remember bw as best game ever and that's it please get over it...
Just kids like you who never experienced the joy of BW that say that. You look at our woody figurine with envy because you how much fun, excitement and enjoyment we have with it. And in retaliation you hype up your buzzlightyear figurine, screaming and shouting that woody is old! Woody is dated. Buzzlightyear is new HES BETTER.
On August 11 2010 22:48 -Desu- wrote: bw is gonna die
Keep telling yourself that.
I don't keep telling that to my self. In fact, I am a huge fan of bw and bw pro scene, don't worry I am as sad as you because of the fact that it will die.
I only say that when I see someone create about why should bw must live, afraiding too much of the fact that it's gonna die.
anyway, I don't pick a side I love both games.
But it's reality, companies will go where the money goes. The all-fancy ceremonies, commentators, teams you are watching and enjoying is there for the money cycle in the business, the money already started to cycle for sc2, I am sorry..
On August 11 2010 23:03 ShadeR wrote: Just kids like you who never experienced the joy of BW that say that. You look at our woody figurine with envy because you how much fun, excitement and enjoyment we have with it. And in retaliation you hype up your buzzlightyear figurine, screaming and shouting that woody is old! Woody is dated. Buzzlightyear is new HES BETTER.
to clear up somethings, I am 26 years old and I started to play starcraft since starcraft:original, oh man you have no idea how much I experienced the joy of the game.
and as I stated above, I am not saying sc 2 is better because it's new. Bw will die because money and proscene will follow sc2. try to understand what I am saying here don't create a stereotype, as I said I like both games, and bw is the best game ever released imo..
I hope I could explain myself that I am not looking at the case as a 9-years old boy as you tried to reflect me shader.
to sum up: OP's like these totally ignore the fact that both games can live together if community wishes to... there can be a bw proscene and sc2 proscene, but being so fanatic and raging on ppl who chooses to watch sc2 streams? please..
The proscene won't follow SC2; just watch as Blizzard fail to add LAN except in officially sanctioned tournaments - meaning that conditions will be different from in their practice.
Watch as Blizzard fails to balance SC2 with hundreds of patches, meaning both the game will be imbalanced and the metagame won't develop - BW was their only real balanced game with very few balance patches. In WC2 and WC3, orcs were hilariously imbalanced, regarding WoW's balance, well, FOTM combinations every month arise.
Watch as Blizzard don't do anything regarding hard counter mechanisms and dull hard counter triangles.
Watch as the map pool stagnates because people can't ladder on tournament maps (see iCCup putting Courage/Korean tournament maps on their ladder map pool)
Watch as the hype dies in a few months when everyone gets bored of SC2 and moves back onto CS:S and WoW, and SC becomes niche again.
Watch as ActiviBlizzard tries to milk the game and it's "proscene" for all it's worth.
On August 11 2010 22:48 -Desu- wrote: bw is gonna die, sc2 will live, eventually, and also life sucks... so yeah please get over it already and stop making threads about how good bw is (regarding the war between SC2 and BW, and BW will prevail).
both games are good, but bw is old and gonna die soon, your feelings or your precious memories of bw won't change anything, we will all remember bw as best game ever and that's it please get over it...
LOL a game that has no fucking LAN latency nor chat rooms (essential for the social aspect of the game) will be more successful? Let alone become an esport hahaha I'm sure it will live up to its name. BW on the other hand is still stronger than ever. Do you not see the LR threads?
Also if you want your precious SC2 to become a esport then tell Blizzard to get their head out of their asses and make it somewhat fun/challenging. Until then I will continue to play the more fun and challenging (as well as better) game.
On August 11 2010 22:48 -Desu- wrote: bw is gonna die, sc2 will live, eventually, and also life sucks... so yeah please get over it already and stop making threads about how good bw is (regarding the war between SC2 and BW, and BW will prevail).
both games are good, but bw is old and gonna die soon, your feelings or your precious memories of bw won't change anything, we will all remember bw as best game ever and that's it please get over it...
BW scene is very lively while SC2 hasn't had a single major tournament yet. Therefore, I wouuld really know what you are basing your assumptions on...
I don't think SC2 has the potential to be a great esport discipline. And I don't think Korean scene which has a way more serious approach of the game than foreigners is gonna swap unless they really see an opportunity there.
So you talk out of nothing.
From what I have seen, SC2 is clearly inferior to BW in terms of
-Micro / distribution of units ("intelligent" gimmicky grouping / stuff like mines, lurkers etc...) -Macro -Map positionning and positionnal strategy (highground rules / size of the maps etc...) -Clarity of graphism for viewers -Single player Campaign / storyline -Lan and multiplayer support -Bnet
I'm sure SC2 is a good game. It's just a pity for it it comes after a masterwork. For me, it's more at the level of Warcraft 3 than the level of Brood War.
hope the korean pro gamers will make SC2 enjoyable to watch 'cause the way it is right now with foreigners and maybe korean amateurs, it's so boring, with blobs of army clashing with another army in a second and then it's over.
hopefully, it's just because the skill pool hasn't matured yet.
How is SC2 going to be e-sports worthy when it's almost impossible to count the amount of zerglings/marines on the screen at any given time because the whole game is a clusterfuck.
On August 11 2010 22:48 -Desu- wrote: bw is gonna die, sc2 will live, eventually, and also life sucks... so yeah please get over it already and stop making threads about how good bw is (regarding the war between SC2 and BW, and BW will prevail).
both games are good, but bw is old and gonna die soon, your feelings or your precious memories of bw won't change anything, we will all remember bw as best game ever and that's it please get over it...
BW scene is very lively while SC2 hasn't had a single major tournament yet. Therefore, I wouuld really know what you are basing your assumptions on...
I don't think SC2 has the potential to be a great esport discipline. And I don't think Korean scene which has a way more serious approach of the game than foreigners is gonna swap unless they really see an opportunity there.
So you talk out of nothing.
From what I have seen, SC2 is clearly inferior to BW in terms of
-Micro / distribution of units ("intelligent" gimmicky grouping / stuff like mines, lurkers etc...) -Macro -Map positionning and positionnal strategy (highground rules / size of the maps etc...) -Clarity of graphism for viewers -Single player Campaign / storyline -Lan and multiplayer support -Bnet
I'm sure SC2 is a good game. It's just a pity for it it comes after a masterwork. For me, it's more at the level of Warcraft 3 than the level of Brood War.
On August 11 2010 22:48 -Desu- wrote: bw is gonna die, sc2 will live, eventually, and also life sucks... so yeah please get over it already and stop making threads about how good bw is (regarding the war between SC2 and BW, and BW will prevail).
both games are good, but bw is old and gonna die soon, your feelings or your precious memories of bw won't change anything, we will all remember bw as best game ever and that's it please get over it...
well, your asumptions are from nowhere, BW proscene will die when it wouldnt have enough viewers, and if you have seen as you claim before the proscene of BW still fills "stadiums" and has good ratings for a PC game, and FYI in the recent history most popular RTS sequels have failed over their predeccesor even though the publishers have put all the money in the new one (AoE, C&C, etc), other wrong assumption is that all the money is in SC2 so the proscene will move there, you know something about customers (viewers), market , product... ?, money dont buy ratings (altough it helps) and in the e-sports games it is even more complex, do you realize that BW viewers has nothing to do about new graphics, engines and all that stuff?, it is about a game being really watchable, easy to understand, gameplay that allows moments of tension and surprise, a cultural thing, and of course very well balanced races (either for Blizzard or third parties). SC2 is popular because of SC1 sucess but in the same way it is its mayor problem because its goal is not being a good RTS game, its goal inside the community is reaching a stable proscene status (it is far right now from that), so dont jump conclusions based on nothing.
lol. there is no doubt in my mind that sc2 will never make it as a real big esport. its imbossible for something so medicore (compared to bw) to keep peoples interest for a long time. Its been 3 weeks since the relase and still nobody know how the ladder works. loool
On August 11 2010 22:48 -Desu- wrote: bw is gonna die, sc2 will live, eventually, and also life sucks... so yeah please get over it already and stop making threads about how good bw is (regarding the war between SC2 and BW, and BW will prevail).
both games are good, but bw is old and gonna die soon, your feelings or your precious memories of bw won't change anything, we will all remember bw as best game ever and that's it please get over it...
BW scene is very lively while SC2 hasn't had a single major tournament yet. Therefore, I wouuld really know what you are basing your assumptions on...
I don't think SC2 has the potential to be a great esport discipline. And I don't think Korean scene which has a way more serious approach of the game than foreigners is gonna swap unless they really see an opportunity there.
So you talk out of nothing.
From what I have seen, SC2 is clearly inferior to BW in terms of
-Micro / distribution of units ("intelligent" gimmicky grouping / stuff like mines, lurkers etc...) -Macro -Map positionning and positionnal strategy (highground rules / size of the maps etc...) -Clarity of graphism for viewers -Single player Campaign / storyline -Lan and multiplayer support -Bnet
I'm sure SC2 is a good game. It's just a pity for it it comes after a masterwork. For me, it's more at the level of Warcraft 3 than the level of Brood War.
This is what I think.
1) BW is dead. Outside of Korea. 2) SC2 will have major tournament. In a month. And it's bigger than BW. AND IT WILL HAVE ENGLISH COMMENTARY OMG. 3) There are shitloads of opportunities in SC2. TLO said he needs to schedule his time to attend tournaments and barely has any time for laddering. 4) Micro comes with time, there is enough of macroing to occupy anyone in Sc2. 5) Maps are made and played by the community therefore you can't say BW has inferior maps 6) Campaign is fucking awesome. Especially for someone who doesn't like rts which is huuuge. Every mission is fucking awesome. 7) Sc2 has multiplayer support 8) Sc2 is 2 weeks old.
"SC2 will have major tournament. In a month. And it's bigger than BW"
lol when your finals tournament has an attendant of 30,000 people, please let me know. Which will probably be never.
"There are shitloads of opportunities in SC2. TLO said he needs to schedule his time to attend tournaments and barely has any time for laddering."
Okay, but because there's a lot of tournaments that doesn't mean it is automatically better. Quality > Quantity.
"Micro comes with time, there is enough of macroing to occupy anyone in Sc2." Stuff like muta micro or shuttle/dropship micro? We'll never see shit like that again
"Sc2 has multiplayer support" With no LAN latency or chatrooms.
" Sc2 is 2 weeks old." Fuck this is the worst that anyone can say. You know SC2 should have been a better game from the start. Blizzard could have made such a better game than the current SC2 because of what they had available to them. BW was such a huge success that the whole thing was basically outlined for them. But no they made it extremely user friendly which really kills the purpose of making it an e-sport. Like I said make the game more demanding and challenging. That's not the only problem though, because SC2's graphics make it so that each battle is a huge clusterfuck ball 1a'ing each other. How will you fix that when it is pretty hard to watch from a spectator's view? I've been able to show friends who don't watch pro SC some VODs from nevake or Jon747 and they understood the basics/what was going on even without playing SC...
I've pretty much fully switched over to SC2 in my mind. I want to hit it hard at least until I feel I know as much about that game as I did about BW.
That is until I start reading threads in the SC2 section. I can't read more than a few pages of a thread before running back to the bastion of intelligence that is the BW section. Nothing erases the trauma of OMG BANELING BUST LOLOL like a nice, relaxed discussion about the recent ZvZ trends.
On August 12 2010 02:08 Amnesia wrote: lol when your finals tournament has an attendant of 30,000 people, please let me know. Which will probably be never.
I have confidence that might be possible
On August 12 2010 02:08 Amnesia wrote: Okay, but because there's a lot of tournaments that doesn't mean it is automatically better. Quality > Quantity.
I was referring to him saying that koreans can't see opportunity to shine in sc2.
On August 12 2010 02:08 Amnesia wrote: Stuff like muta micro or shuttle/dropship micro? We'll never see shit like that again
It's different game and we will see different micro.
Stalker blink micro? Bare used Medivac (aka dropship) micro? Nobody using Thorship? Barely used
Why? Because game is still 2 weeks old and people still focusing on more important things like macroing.
On August 12 2010 02:08 Amnesia wrote: You know SC2 should have been a better game from the start.
I'm pretty happy with it. I know many people are happy with it. SC2 is wayyy more popular than BW ever was (outside of Korea) which is pretty dam awesome. I'm sure it will just get better and better as long as people like Artosis, Day9 and hell even HDH (even though I don't like them other 160000 apparently do) keep promoting it
On July 29 2010 06:44 PoP wrote: I'm personally quite a bit disappointed/sad that people like Day[9] or Artosis, no matter how amazing they have been and still are for the community, have apparently completely forgotten about BW, and keep referring to it as "the old Starcraft".
THIS.
Especially day[9]
Maybe because there are very few people who play BW?
Well, for people who loved brood war and have spent so much time and energy into it, it's quite surprising that they stop giving a fuck once the next game is out.
Can't really imagine Flash saying "Fuck BW, there is a version which is newer and betterer, I'll never play this game again."
From someone like Idra or even Artosis, I can understand that the fact of not having 574767 koreans on top of your head without any hope of being ever better than tem, and finally having a chance of being the best with "fair" competition can be liberating.
I remember an interview of ForGG where he was asked what he would do when SC2 was coming out. He answered that he would play BW until it dies and always be faithful to that game. <3
Because foreigner BW is dead, and has been in terms of professional gaming for a long time. There is nothing for IdrA or Artosis to win by playing BW. You can't compare Flash's thought process to a foreigners one.
People have been living vicariously through the Korean BW scene for years, they just got tired of it.
For me the main thing is that foreign community basically made the switch without even knowing if the game was any good. They just assumed, because of Blizzard marketing intense activity and the hype of the novelty that the smart thing to do was to stop playing bw and start as soon as possible mass gaming at SC2 in order to be the next world champion.
That prove only one thing, which is that foreign community is immature.
1- Koreans take their time. It doesn't matter that you started the first day in order to be world champion. Let me tell you that if Korea swap to SC2 massively, people like Idra or DeMuslim will be outclassed by Jaedong and Flash in a matter of days if they start playing seriously.
2- Because people invested themselves so much in SC2 before it was even released, nobody has taken the time to look at the game with a critical approach.
Now, I've not been playing much, but I have been watching a lot. And I can say, without any implication / bias: the game blows compared to BW. It is "clever" and everything is designed for the player, which means it has no depth whatsoever. It's about big balls of units killing each other in a matter of second without the viewer being even able to say what the fuck is happening under the phony spell animations.
Now I will tell you what happens next: SC2 will be big for a couple of years. Very big. There will be a shitload of money, especially since Blizzard will be investing a lot so that teir game becomes the next BW. Then, I predict that in three or four years, everybody will be dead bored of it. I only hope BW can survive till then. Otherwise, we can say good bye to the franchise.
I totally agree with Biff everyone is being too easy on this game. Didn't this game take like 4 years to make?
Not buying sc2 out of principle. Blizzard is being too greedy with the expansion and no- LAN policy. Just because it says starcraft in the title doesn’t mean it has anything to do with Starcraft. It is just too average, the game isn’t even good enough to justify the purchase, the game play is shallow and gimmicky compared to brood war; micro is gone, macro is gone, and some of the most awesome units in BW are gone. BIG disappointment I can’t imagine why this game took so long to develop. Seriously it looks soo gimmicky, 2 gases in every base LMAO are blizzard game engineers not smart enough to balance something as simple as that? Starcraft was simple but elegant. “Starcraft” 2 is just simple.
Maybe ill buy it if the expansions add a TON of features that improve the game but for now SC2 is just an inferior game that cost $55 more than BW.
I have to say I'm suffering from buyers remorse with Starcraft 2.. Paid $148 ($133 USD) AUD for the CE. I even told myself I wasn't going to buy it because the beta was so bad and the game wasn't great. Somehow I convinced myself that Blizzard would pull through at retail and everything would be great.
Surprise. Instead I get stuck on SEA battle.net, Real ID doesn't work as advertised, no custom games on SEA and the ladder is dead in off peak times. To top it all off the actual game just isn't that great. It's good but it doesn't ever get past being just good. I haven't touched it in well over a week and I don't think I'm going to any time in the near future.
2 days ago I hopped on US West Brood War for some UMS because I was ready for bed but not quite tired yet and needed to kill 20 mins or so.
I had an absolute blast. Random UMS, 4v4 Fastest, 1v1 Python, talking to people (made 2 friends) and just having a good time. Pretty soon it was 4am and I didn't even realise.
Hopping back on Brood War reminded me what a great game it truly is and what a shitty period gaming is going through right now.
If I went back in time before the beta and told myself that I would be bored of Starcraft 2 1 week after release I would laugh at myself extremely hard.
Same argument as Street Fighter 2 vs Street Fighter 4.
If you love it so much, there's still a scene for you. Being good at the older one gives you a leg up on the newer competition. But most will move on, and you need to accept that.
BW is still cool, but I rather play SC2 all day. I like watching Bw pro games now and then still, but you cannot just say --insert better, clearer analogy--
Well you can, and it is a preference. But from a technical standpoint, one is clearly better. How can you expect everyone else to choose older model just for preference.
I dunno, BW will still be around if people want it to be around. But if it dies, then the scene will speak for itself. Don't need tons of players posting on behalf of the small percent of the scene that will not move on ever.
its so weird with so many former BW players moving fully on to SC2 altogether. I asked a few of them why and they said"becuase it's new" and not "because it's better". most tell me they know it's not as good. most say that they cant go back to the old UI and bad path-finding and such. It makes me wonder why so many of them ever stuck to BW in the 1st place. Of course the game is archaic and hard to play, of course you have to fight the interface to play well. I thought that was part of the game (so to speak) and a reason why people liked playing it so much.
I remember thinking before SC2 beta came out that all us SCers are really stubborn old-timers playing a 10 yr old game because it's better than everything else despite how dated it is. I thought that we all embraced that fact and loved how it was hard to just play BW. I guess a lot more people played BW just cuz they were used to it and now can move on to SC2 because it's close enough. I dunno, I still cant really figure out why so many of my friends moved onto SC2 without thinking about why they loved BW in the 1st place... :\
It's just so funny because only NOW are BW players REALLY being called stubborn lol
On August 12 2010 03:48 SaetZero wrote: Same argument as Street Fighter 2 vs Street Fighter 4.
If you love it so much, there's still a scene for you. Being good at the older one gives you a leg up on the newer competition. But most will move on, and you need to accept that.
BW is still cool, but I rather play SC2 all day. I like watching Bw pro games now and then still, but you cannot just say "Man, fuck the Ferrari FXX. I want the F355!."
Well you can, and it is a preference. But from a technical standpoint, one is clearly better. How can you expect everyone else to choose older model just for preference.
I dunno, BW will still be around if people want it to be around. But if it dies, then the scene will speak for itself. Don't need tons of players posting on behalf of the small percent of the scene that will not move on ever.
That is one bad analogy.
First of all, you are clearly assuming that SC2 actually looks better than BW simply because it's newer? Yes, you're right that it's all about preference, but thinking something is "clearly better", as you've put it, just because it's newer is very shallow point of view. Then every remake of some classic movie would be "clearly better" than original because it has bigger budget with better special effects. And movies are prime example that this is false in most cases.
On August 12 2010 02:33 Biff The Understudy wrote: For me the main thing is that foreign community basically made the switch without even knowing if the game was any good. They just assumed, because of Blizzard marketing intense activity and the hype of the novelty that the smart thing to do was to stop playing bw and start as soon as possible mass gaming at SC2 in order to be the next world champion.
That prove only one thing, which is that foreign community is immature.
1- Koreans take their time. It doesn't matter that you started the first day in order to be world champion. Let me tell you that if Korea swap to SC2 massively, people like Idra or DeMuslim will be outclassed by Jaedong and Flash in a matter of days if they start playing seriously.
2- Because people invested themselves so much in SC2 before it was even released, nobody has taken the time to look at the game with a critical approach.
Now, I've not been playing much, but I have been watching a lot. And I can say, without any implication / bias: the game blows compared to BW. It is "clever" and everything is designed for the player, which means it has no depth whatsoever. It's about big balls of units killing each other in a matter of second without the viewer being even able to say what the fuck is happening under the phony spell animations.
Now I will tell you what happens next: SC2 will be big for a couple of years. Very big. There will be a shitload of money, especially since Blizzard will be investing a lot so that teir game becomes the next BW. Then, I predict that in three or four years, everybody will be dead bored of it. I only hope BW can survive till then. Otherwise, we can say good bye to the franchise.
sadly i agree... korean bw NEEDS to survive. ive only been following since end of 08 so its still new and fresh to me
On August 12 2010 03:48 SaetZero wrote: Same argument as Street Fighter 2 vs Street Fighter 4.
If you love it so much, there's still a scene for you. Being good at the older one gives you a leg up on the newer competition. But most will move on, and you need to accept that.
BW is still cool, but I rather play SC2 all day. I like watching Bw pro games now and then still, but you cannot just say "Man, fuck the Ferrari FXX. I want the F355!."
Well you can, and it is a preference. But from a technical standpoint, one is clearly better. How can you expect everyone else to choose older model just for preference.
I dunno, BW will still be around if people want it to be around. But if it dies, then the scene will speak for itself. Don't need tons of players posting on behalf of the small percent of the scene that will not move on ever.
That is one bad analogy.
First of all, you are clearly assuming that SC2 actually looks better than BW simply because it's newer? Yes, you're right that it's all about preference, but thinking something is "clearly better", as you've put it, just because it's newer is very shallow point of view. Then every remake of some classic movie would be "clearly better" than original because it has bigger budget with better special effects. And movies are prime example that this is false in most cases.
dinner for schmucks is CLEARLY better than citizen kane.
Everyone is moving to SC2 because its newer. Thats exactly the reason. There is no Flash, and there is no Jaedong. People still have a shot at being a big name and winning some $$ without having to practice 8 hours a day to develop amazing game sense and get down a whole bunch of tiny timings.
On August 12 2010 04:44 Xyik wrote: Everyone is moving to SC2 because its newer. Thats exactly the reason. There is no Flash, and there is no Jaedong. People still have a shot at being a big name and winning some $$ without having to practice 8 hours a day to develop amazing game sense and get down a whole bunch of tiny timings.
Yeah, thta's pretty much what I was saying. Hardcore gamers switched immediately because of the hope of somehow being the best and not because the game was any better. The proof is that the switched was done basically the first day of the beta when nobody had a clue if the game was not terribad (and imo, it is, at least compared to what we could expect).
It's so wrong that it's laughable for two reasons:
1- If SC2 doesn't develop or doesn't have the potential to be a succesfull esport, theses people will basically have lost their time.
2- If the game does develop, we will be in the same situation than we were in BW: Korean will form teams, with people 865443 time more dedicated, more serious and more organized than foreigners and our proud americans/europeans player will be as little competitive as they were in BW.
But the real main thing is the following one: the reason why foreigners have been blowing compared to koreans in BW is the exact same reason why they all swapped to SC2 immediately. On the one hand, we have people who love the game and spend their life trying to be the best, with humility, sacrifices and maturity. On the other hand, the foreign community is completely un-professional, with people trying to be e-famous and the best of the best without thinking ahead and without waiting the release of a game before saying that they will dedicate their life to it.
That leads me to the sad conclusion that the worst thing which could happen to wannabe professional SC2 gamers is that Korea goes into SC2. It would be a lolpwnage almost immediately.
It's funny that people are saying SC2 players are shallow and close-minded for switching over, when the exact same thing can be applicable from the other point of view.
Regardless, both games are good. It's a stupid argument, so stop having it. I don't see why everyone is so worried about what game everyone else is playing. Just play the one YOU like better, and don't worry about it.
On August 12 2010 03:48 SaetZero wrote: Same argument as Street Fighter 2 vs Street Fighter 4.
If you love it so much, there's still a scene for you. Being good at the older one gives you a leg up on the newer competition. But most will move on, and you need to accept that.
BW is still cool, but I rather play SC2 all day. I like watching Bw pro games now and then still, but you cannot just say "Man, fuck the Ferrari FXX. I want the F355!."
Well you can, and it is a preference. But from a technical standpoint, one is clearly better. How can you expect everyone else to choose older model just for preference.
I dunno, BW will still be around if people want it to be around. But if it dies, then the scene will speak for itself. Don't need tons of players posting on behalf of the small percent of the scene that will not move on ever.
That is one bad analogy.
First of all, you are clearly assuming that SC2 actually looks better than BW simply because it's newer? Yes, you're right that it's all about preference, but thinking something is "clearly better", as you've put it, just because it's newer is very shallow point of view. Then every remake of some classic movie would be "clearly better" than original because it has bigger budget with better special effects. And movies are prime example that this is false in most cases.
dinner for schmucks is CLEARLY better than citizen kane.
Now I've never heard of dinner for schmucks, but I can't believe they would remake the citizen kane under that name -.-
On August 12 2010 05:05 Cofo wrote: It's funny that people are saying SC2 players are shallow and close-minded for switching over, when the exact same thing can be applicable from the other point of view.
Regardless, both games are good. It's a stupid argument, so stop having it. I don't see why everyone is so worried about what game everyone else is playing. Just play the one YOU like better, and don't worry about it.
I am not calling anyone shallow or closed minded for switching over I just stated that overall don't see what the appeal of sc2 is. If you do, go ahead spend 60 bucks and eventually 180 bucks for the 3 expansion. I am not a huge gamer, but I buy the games that I think are really worth it, I am disappointed because before beta came out I was sure I would buy starcraft 2 but now just feel I wouldn't play it for more than a couple weeks before I got bored of it.
On August 12 2010 03:48 SaetZero wrote: Same argument as Street Fighter 2 vs Street Fighter 4.
If you love it so much, there's still a scene for you. Being good at the older one gives you a leg up on the newer competition. But most will move on, and you need to accept that.
BW is still cool, but I rather play SC2 all day. I like watching Bw pro games now and then still, but you cannot just say "Man, fuck the Ferrari FXX. I want the F355!."
Well you can, and it is a preference. But from a technical standpoint, one is clearly better. How can you expect everyone else to choose older model just for preference.
I dunno, BW will still be around if people want it to be around. But if it dies, then the scene will speak for itself. Don't need tons of players posting on behalf of the small percent of the scene that will not move on ever.
That is one bad analogy.
First of all, you are clearly assuming that SC2 actually looks better than BW simply because it's newer? Yes, you're right that it's all about preference, but thinking something is "clearly better", as you've put it, just because it's newer is very shallow point of view. Then every remake of some classic movie would be "clearly better" than original because it has bigger budget with better special effects. And movies are prime example that this is false in most cases.
dinner for schmucks is CLEARLY better than citizen kane.
Now I've never heard of dinner for schmucks, but I can't believe they would remake the citizen kane under that name -.-
it's actually a remake of a good movie called the dinner game
On August 12 2010 04:04 2Pacalypse- wrote: That is one bad analogy.
First of all, you are clearly assuming that SC2 actually looks better than BW simply because it's newer? Yes, you're right that it's all about preference, but thinking something is "clearly better", as you've put it, just because it's newer is very shallow point of view. Then every remake of some classic movie would be "clearly better" than original because it has bigger budget with better special effects. And movies are prime example that this is false in most cases.
From a technical standpoint, SC2 is a better game graphic wise. You need a better graphics card to play it, the graphics are better.
Do I mean they LOOK better? No. Just like my analogy... which maybe was meh. The FXX in terms of 'how fucking fast is this car' is clearly better, but does that mean everyone would rather have a FXX over a F355? Not at all.
I personally like the graphics better from a Pokemon Yellow then I do a Pokemon SoulSilver. I like some things design better in BW then SC2, and vice versa.
But the fact is the graphics are better from a technical standpoint. Not artistic, not an opinion or your preference. Purely technical.
Your movie remake analogy... yea I would say from a production cost standpoint, the graphics in the many remakes are technically better. Does it make the movie better? Not at all. Does it even make the movie look better. Again, not at all.
It is all preference. I will ont even argue Sc2 is better than BW as a game, nor would I argue the other way around. But purely Technically... like 'how much computer do I need to play this game'... SC2 is more powerful than Bw.
I haven't touched BW since SC2 came out. The graphics are shiny, the new units are neat, but most of all playing online is a lot easier. As a beginner in BW I have to practice builds a lot and work to perfect them to compete at D level and then half the time I fall apart because I forgot one detail, failed against a probe harass, or they cheese, gas steal, or play otherwise nonstandard. The other half the time they're a smurf or a Korean who crushes me no matter what I do. In SC2 I've barely had to learn standard openings and unit compositions to fare well against decently ranked players (yes I know that probably wouldn't cut it against most Diamond players, but compare that with most D players on iCCup). Practicing BOs is something I can do to improve rather than a matter of survival. iCCup feels like a pretty serious and hostile environment a lot of the time (it doesn't help that the only serious BW player I know switched over) whereas playing people on SC2 feels a lot more casual and light-hearted (I haven't laddered much though). Most importantly, though, in SC2 I can instantly find a decent game instead of 5-10 minutes to find any game, let alone the map and matchup I want to play.
So all things considered, it might be another month or so before I switch back to BW. Life as a BW noob is much harder than as a SC2 noob but the game is so good it's worth it. Plus professional Korean BW is by far the most entertaining stuff to watch atm. SC2 is also nice because I think it actually helps you improve at BW, since the easier-to-work-with UI makes practicing certain fundamentals more accessible at lower levels.
i can't do that. if i beat up on a player who sucks (ie, the vast, vast majority of sc2), then i get zero satisfaction from the victory. its only casual and light-hearted because everyone sucks. getting out of the D rut on iccup is incomparable to getting promoted to diamond in sc2. even if its with a shitty 30% winrate.
If you read the second part of my post my point isn't so much that I enjoy SC2 because I can win, but that for me BW has more lasting appeal despite how much harder it is to play competitively. I guess in hindsight I was a bit convoluted in trying to get that point across.
I have been avoiding bw since the beta released, but today i played some matches and i LOVE how evrything works. I mean i think sc2 is a really good multiplayergame with a big possibility for future micro and developmenet, i love watching progamers playing it and i love thinking about strategies. But when i play scbw with my friends the game is on a whole different level. Not only is bw good, i also actually have fun. Maybe it's nostalgia but it feels so right to set up a flank and then order your army without them immediatly clumping together Sadly im actually a bit bored with the proscene atm But YES, until sc2 becomes truly fun to actually play im into brood war!!
Also a thing i noticed when comparing the two is that in sc2 you get your first buildings up faster than in bw wich is nice.
On August 12 2010 02:33 Biff The Understudy wrote: For me the main thing is that foreign community basically made the switch without even knowing if the game was any good. They just assumed, because of Blizzard marketing intense activity and the hype of the novelty that the smart thing to do was to stop playing bw and start as soon as possible mass gaming at SC2 in order to be the next world champion.
That prove only one thing, which is that foreign community is immature.
So foreign community is immature because they choose to play a new game and not a 12 year old game? Bizarre statement.
Most people have played BW to death and are bored of it , personally i played for 12 years , i wanted something new and fresh.
I really wish I still played broodwar, but it's just too much work these days. Too competitive, too stressful... Especially playing terran on iccup, blech.
Also after so many years of playing the game, it's just not as fun, maybe I'm just bored with it.
On August 12 2010 02:33 Biff The Understudy wrote: For me the main thing is that foreign community basically made the switch without even knowing if the game was any good. They just assumed, because of Blizzard marketing intense activity and the hype of the novelty that the smart thing to do was to stop playing bw and start as soon as possible mass gaming at SC2 in order to be the next world champion.
That prove only one thing, which is that foreign community is immature.
So foreign community is immature because they choose to play a new game and not a 12 year old game? Bizarre statement.
Most people have played BW to death and are bored of it , personally i played for 12 years , i wanted something new and fresh.
No, what I find immature is to decide to be a progamer on a game that is not even finished.
And I find immature to get so entusiastic for something you don't know anything about, that you give up in one day what is supposed to have been a huge part of your life for the last years.
The fact is that people would have reacted exactly the same way if the game had been a complete and utter failure or if the game had been even better than brood war. People didn't switched because SC2 is good or better than BW, and the proof is that they had virtually all switched on the first day of the beta.
I can't imagine someone being 500% dedicated to a game (and that's what you need to be as good as the korean), and then leave it in one day, because blizzard marketing service have told you their next product is bigger and betterer.
SC2 wannabe pros want to beat koreans .. tee hee ..
yet they are being raped left and right, up and down, NEW&S by koreans playing SC2 .. like the people who talked about these SC2 wannabe pros .. in a nut shell: "tough luck schmuks, koreans are Gosu in anything that has a phrase 'Star Craft labelled on it'"
some of the arguments here are pretty light .. i blame blizzard for that creating a game with less content than its predecessor ..
Or maybe people haven't just 'given up in one day' on the game. Maybe they've slowly reduced the amount of time spent with that one game. Maybe they're genuinely interested in something new because that one game isnt what it used to be to them. Maybe the community isnt the same. Maybe they've seen the gameplay all before because they've played it millions of times. Maybe they're interested in finding out whether the new game is worth their attention, and arent going to condemn it without giving it a go themselves.
Brood War is the best game of all time. It is my favourite game of all time and the game I have spent the most time with.
That said, I'm still playing the shit out of SC2. I'm not married to fucking BW. I don't owe it anything. At 26, games are about fun to me. SC2 has managed to capture a lot of the fun I had in the early days of BW. There's nothing immature about that. Get a grip.
i'm playing sc2 because i really want to have a chance at competing at the top, since it's way less mechanically demanding. it's also a fresh start
however i don't want to jump on the sc2 sucks bandwaggon. it took a long time for sc to develop into a great game, i'm sure many people didn't like it when zerg 4 pooled every game
i agree with the guy almost completely
and getting to diamond was okay, but nothing will ever EVER beat the feeling of getting D+ in iccup.
i got d+ like 2 days before sc2 came out, best feeling ever.
On August 12 2010 18:33 Brett wrote: Or maybe people haven't just 'given up in one day' on the game. Maybe they've slowly reduced the amount of time spent with that one game. Maybe they're genuinely interested in something new because that one game isnt what it used to be to them. Maybe the community isnt the same. Maybe they've seen the gameplay all before because they've played it millions of times. Maybe they're interested in finding out whether the new game is worth their attention, and arent going to condemn it without giving it a go themselves.
Brood War is the best game of all time. It is my favourite game of all time and the game I have spent the most time with.
That said, I'm still playing the shit out of SC2. I'm not married to fucking BW. I don't owe it anything. At 26, games are about fun to me. SC2 has managed to capture a lot of the fun I had in the early days of BW. There's nothing immature about that. Get a grip.
:-) I'm not talking about the casual BW D+ player who just see an opportunity to play something new and fresh. That I understand perfectly.
It was more a comment on the very top foreigner BW scene, which basically stopped to exist the day the beta was released.
By no means am I good at bw, and once I get around to buying sc2 I'll likely switch without looking back. But I can't see myself turning down a bw game if someone asks me to play in 5 years.
heh i changed from SC2 to SC:BW a week ago maybe :D I was playing SC2 in beta and even for some time now but when i tried BW it just feel right, u need be faster and think faster than in SC2 it is my opinion also I never played SC1 more than against computer when i was young : P
I still play BW, too. Maybe because SC2 wouldn't run on my old PC, because I still would like to play the campaign. But BW gives me everything I need for gaming. It is so challenging for me (I stuck at D+ and 100 APM) and it provides more fun with every game I play. And I am not even lonely at ICC, cause I was lucky to find a great clan of chobos like me in the German community. It's so great to rage about cheesy Korean Zerg with 250 APM with these guys. I started to play BW intensively last novembre and I think I will continue to play it till I won't find any opponent anywhere. btw: If you search opponents at D+/D/D- feel free to join op BaD] or add me: BaD]Don_Julio
Still fun to watch Oystein and RaNgeD stream (there is another protoss I don't recall the name on aswell), guess everyone else switched right away. Cash is king.
I got bored with SC2 once I reached platinum. I'm a D level player and I didn't even know any SC2 build orders. I agree with conTAgi0n that it's easier to get into SC2's ladder than iCCup, but the novelty of it wears off quickly and I soon realized how hollow all my games were.
Also imo brood war is much more interesting to watch, as the battles take place over larger areas, are easier to discern, and require more skill. Korean matches are even better still, since the players actually are 'professionals' (ie they do it as a profession and it shows), foreign 'pros' to me are just good players, not anywhere near the level of Korean StarCraft.
Another downside to SC2 is the UMS games. I know this is kind of a tangent in a thread about competitve games, but still it's a big reason I dislike SC2. In brood war it was fun to jump back and forth from iCCup to Helms Deep/CatnMouse/etc. on Bnet - it was a nice back and forth between ultra intense games to very casual layed back ones. SC2 doesn't really have any good UMS maps and the ladder matches aren't very competitive, so it's kind of just me playing somewhat casual games without anything to highten or lower the tension, which gets really boring after awhile.
In all I don't see the improvement of SC2 over Brood War, and I share some of the other posters sentiments that everyone kinda jumped ship because of the hype. Still, it doesn't bother me since although the pool of players has gotten smaller, there will always be people on iCCup, old pro league matches to watch and people playing UMS on bnet
I have a feeling that Blizzard are expecting to get massive sales and a massive new e-sport in Korea but that this won't happen and Korea will have relatively low sales for such a strong gaming nation and it won't replace BW as an e-sport there.
Also imo brood war is much more interesting to watch, as the battles take place over larger areas, are easier to discern, and require more skill. Korean matches are even better still, since the players actually are 'professionals' (ie they do it as a profession and it shows), foreign 'pros' to me are just good players, [b]not anywhere near the level of Korean StarCraft. [b]
And that is probably why a lot/some switched. It's a new scene, and they got the opportunity to become the best. They won't earn anything (on a regular basis) in broodwar, SC2 might give them them that opportunity.
And that is probably why a lot/some switched. It's a new scene, and they got the opportunity to become the best. They won't earn anything (on a regular basis) in broodwar, SC2 might give them them that opportunity.
I guess but gaming is a pretty inneficient way of making money (considering the practice/payout ratio) plus there're better games to make money off of (FPS's in general are easier to get good at and offer decent prize pools). Imo it's just a dumb choice to play games solely for the cash, better off investing the time in a sport.
And that is probably why a lot/some switched. It's a new scene, and they got the opportunity to become the best. They won't earn anything (on a regular basis) in broodwar, SC2 might give them them that opportunity.
I guess but gaming is a pretty inneficient way of making money (considering the practice/payout ratio) plus there're better games to make money off of (FPS's in general are easier to get good at and offer decent prize pools). Imo it's just a dumb choice to play games solely for the cash, better off investing the time in a sport.
Sport is as hazardous as video game to make money.
Better play as an amateur and stop this fixation of "being the best". Asian are much more down to earth for this kind of matter I realize.
Earning money at SC2 has no reason to be easier than earning money at BW, despite the Korean scene. If SC2 ever become an esport, it will be flooded with uber talented kids 100% dedicated with ungodly skill.
Also imo brood war is much more interesting to watch, as the battles take place over larger areas, are easier to discern, and require more skill. Korean matches are even better still, since the players actually are 'professionals' (ie they do it as a profession and it shows), foreign 'pros' to me are just good players, [b]not anywhere near the level of Korean StarCraft. [b]
And that is probably why a lot/some switched. It's a new scene, and they got the opportunity to become the best. They won't earn anything (on a regular basis) in broodwar, SC2 might give them them that opportunity.
No one will earn anything on a regular basis off games, except progamers in Korea that lives off salary not just prize money. Lol
And that is probably why a lot/some switched. It's a new scene, and they got the opportunity to become the best. They won't earn anything (on a regular basis) in broodwar, SC2 might give them them that opportunity.
I guess but gaming is a pretty inneficient way of making money (considering the practice/payout ratio) plus there're better games to make money off of (FPS's in general are easier to get good at and offer decent prize pools). Imo it's just a dumb choice to play games solely for the cash, better off investing the time in a sport.
Dude, you just said that you prefer Korean pros over foreigners and now your telling it's dumb for foreigners to go for pro career? I'm confused
Edit: and wdf you mean investing time in sports? Lmao only the best of the best get to earn money from sports and only those who start taking sport serious since age 14-16.
Dude, you just said that you prefer Korean pros over foreigners and now your telling it's dumb for foreigners to go for pro career? I'm confused
Edit: and wdf you mean investing time in sports? Lmao only the best of the best get to earn money from sports and only those who start taking sport serious since age 14-16.
Foreigners don't have a chance of breaking into the Korean scene, language and cultural barriers are too great.
As for sports vs. e-sports: the chances of you making it big in either are probably comparable, however making it big in sports is much more rewarding (more money, respect, girls, health) so for someone enamoured with being a 'pro' it would make more sense to try their hands at tennis or something.
HAHAH, ive said this a lot of times and is shameless self promotion but whatever
Cuba still has a solid BW scene, nobody here is into SC2 (I have no idea why) and the tournaments keep getting bigger and bigger. So i only play BW. I played the sc2 campaign on brutal and it was over in 2 days. THe downfall of BW is helping and hurting our scene in a lot of ways, but so far there is an steady increase in funds/fans/players etc.
On August 14 2010 06:56 oo_xerox wrote: HAHAH, ive said this a lot of times and is shameless self promotion but whatever
Cuba still has a solid BW scene, nobody here is into SC2 (I have no idea why) and the tournaments keep getting bigger and bigger. So i only play BW. I played the sc2 campaign on brutal and it was over in 2 days. THe downfall of BW is helping and hurting our scene in a lot of ways, but so far there is an steady increase in funds/fans/players etc.
You guys shouldn't get TOO big or you're gonna have Blizzard on your backs! haha
On August 13 2010 01:03 attackfighter wrote: In brood war it was fun to jump back and forth from iCCup to Helms Deep/CatnMouse/etc. on Bnet - it was a nice back and forth between ultra intense games to very casual layed back ones.
I know exactly what you mean. I love being able to have an intense 20 min TvP then just be completely worn out, play some silly UMS/Fast Money/BGH for a while and then get back into the more serious games once I'm pumped for another great match.
I've already stopped playing SC2 because I just don't enjoy it one bit... I think a big part of it is not getting dumped back to a chat channel so you can chill out and not seeing those options for UMS in the same game list. So many times in Brood War I've tried powering games but when moving on to the next game I spot a TD instead and play that. It just can't happen like that in SC2... I find it so lonely and boring... I've been playing Final Fantasy and Space Channel 5 instead D:
Watch the latest MSL RO8 Light (T) vs Effort (Z) match (August 14, 2010). Especially game 2 and 4. Battles happening everywhere for map and expansion control, so much so even the observer couldn't keep up. Siege lines assaulted by waves upon waves of zerglings/hydras/guardians/kitchensink. You don't get that in SC2. All you see is a ball of MMM going against a ball of whatever. I saw a game on youtube between some high ranked players (tester vs some other korean guy) where tester used his factory like an engineering bay, floating it as soon as he built it to scout his opponent. Tester just got his MMM ball and won... fucking boring shit game and it's suppose to represent the epitome of skill?
On August 15 2010 01:28 junkacc wrote: I saw a game on youtube between some high ranked players (tester vs some other korean guy) where tester used his factory like an engineering bay, floating it as soon as he built it to scout his opponent. Tester just got his MMM ball and won... fucking boring shit game and it's suppose to represent the epitome of skill?
SC2 will never succeed as an esport.
lol and in vanilla starcraft muta/ling raped plain old marines theres no expansion yet and no post beta balance patches so i fail to see your point SC2 will be massive.
Also imo brood war is much more interesting to watch, as the battles take place over larger areas, are easier to discern, and require more skill. Korean matches are even better still, since the players actually are 'professionals' (ie they do it as a profession and it shows), foreign 'pros' to me are just good players, [b]not anywhere near the level of Korean StarCraft.
And that is probably why a lot/some switched. It's a new scene, [b]and they got the opportunity to become the best. They won't earn anything (on a regular basis) in broodwar, SC2 might give them them that opportunity.
If anyone switches over from playing casual bw to casual sc2 with their main reason being they can become a top player is sadly mistaken, terrible reason to switch games
On August 15 2010 01:28 junkacc wrote: I saw a game on youtube between some high ranked players (tester vs some other korean guy) where tester used his factory like an engineering bay, floating it as soon as he built it to scout his opponent. Tester just got his MMM ball and won... fucking boring shit game and it's suppose to represent the epitome of skill?
SC2 will never succeed as an esport.
lol and in vanilla starcraft muta/ling raped plain old marines theres no expansion yet and no post beta balance patches so i fail to see your point SC2 will be massive.
I guess that excuse will be valid for the next 3 years... "just wait for the next expansion!!!" Meanwhile Activision will be laughing all the way to the bank counting all the money from the wide eyed schmuks who have such blind faith.
Excuse me while I go win another game with MMM BALL.
On August 15 2010 01:28 junkacc wrote: I saw a game on youtube between some high ranked players (tester vs some other korean guy) where tester used his factory like an engineering bay, floating it as soon as he built it to scout his opponent. Tester just got his MMM ball and won... fucking boring shit game and it's suppose to represent the epitome of skill?
SC2 will never succeed as an esport.
lol and in vanilla starcraft muta/ling raped plain old marines theres no expansion yet and no post beta balance patches so i fail to see your point SC2 will be massive.
Also imo brood war is much more interesting to watch, as the battles take place over larger areas, are easier to discern, and require more skill. Korean matches are even better still, since the players actually are 'professionals' (ie they do it as a profession and it shows), foreign 'pros' to me are just good players, [b]not anywhere near the level of Korean StarCraft. [b]
And that is probably why a lot/some switched. It's a new scene, and they got the opportunity to become the best. They won't earn anything (on a regular basis) in broodwar, SC2 might give them them that opportunity.
No one will earn anything on a regular basis off games, except progamers in Korea that lives off salary not just prize money. Lol
You do know the best gamers (CS/CSS/WC3 etc) earns salary from their organisation? This will probably happen in SC2 aswell. On top of that comes prizemoney, payed trips to LANs and so on.
Also imo brood war is much more interesting to watch, as the battles take place over larger areas, are easier to discern, and require more skill. Korean matches are even better still, since the players actually are 'professionals' (ie they do it as a profession and it shows), foreign 'pros' to me are just good players, [b]not anywhere near the level of Korean StarCraft.
And that is probably why a lot/some switched. It's a new scene, [b]and they got the opportunity to become the best. They won't earn anything (on a regular basis) in broodwar, SC2 might give them them that opportunity.
If anyone switches over from playing casual bw to casual sc2 with their main reason being they can become a top player is sadly mistaken, terrible reason to switch games
Its a much easier game to become basically top ranks with. That certainly might not be your ONLY reason for switching over, but its a viable and popular one nonetheless since its undeniably true.
I'm a D- player who switched to SC2 for a while, but now with all this balancing nonsense, I'm considering switching back to SC1 until it gets fixed. Hard countering Zerg as a Terran like its WC3 just loses its appeal after a while. I've also noticed that the player count for ICCup is starting to go back up after dropping due to the release of SC2.
The problem is that we basically were tricked into buying 1/3 of a game. The original SC had 3 campaigns, one for each race. The new plan (as announced) was to split these 3 campaigns in SC2 so you buy 1 campaign at a time. SC1+Expansion(1) = 6 campaigns to play. SC2 (The 2 "expansions" aren't really expansions since it creates 1 game when altogether) = 3 campaigns to play. As for the whole "well it hasn't been out long enough yet" people, seriously just drop it. Logically then we shouldn't buy SC2 at all until 2-3 years after the initial release so it can be "complete" before considering into making it an esport much like SC1 did.
Edit: And another thought: now we can actually click those small upwards arrows beside the starcraft 2 forums and keep using Teamliquid for our broodwar needs just as it was before.
SC2 will never be as good of a spectator game as BW, but SC2 is nicer/easier/more fun to play. Whether you want that in a game, though, is subjective. I do admire the intense skill required to play BW, but I can't dedicate enough to it. So I play SC2, but I watch BW. I don't think I'll watch SC2 until BW stops happening (which I hope is never).
while i do agree that sc2 is easier, and the pressure resulting from a competitive atmosphere is almost nonexistent, i cannot agree that it is more fun. the only games in sc2 that are more fun than in bw are ums and campaign. every melee game is superior in bw.
I love watching the BW Korean Pro scene, I can just sit and watch VODs all day. While on SC2 after watching a couple of games I get bored, there is no creativity someone can play terran and do the same strategy every game and have a 70% win rate.
On August 14 2010 06:56 oo_xerox wrote: HAHAH, ive said this a lot of times and is shameless self promotion but whatever
Cuba still has a solid BW scene, nobody here is into SC2 (I have no idea why) and the tournaments keep getting bigger and bigger. So i only play BW. I played the sc2 campaign on brutal and it was over in 2 days. THe downfall of BW is helping and hurting our scene in a lot of ways, but so far there is an steady increase in funds/fans/players etc.
You guys shouldn't get TOO big or you're gonna have Blizzard on your backs! haha
On August 16 2010 07:23 zerious wrote: I love watching the BW Korean Pro scene, I can just sit and watch VODs all day. While on SC2 after watching a couple of games I get bored, there is no creativity someone can play terran and do the same strategy every game and have a 70% win rate.
Brood Wars is an excellent game, but when I'm playing an RTS, I'd rather spend more time playing the game (making units, harassing, vying for position, expanding, etc) and less time wrestling with the UI (sending each of my new workers to mine, selecting each of my 12 gateways and telling it to build a unit, etc. over and over again). I'll probably still fire up BW from time to time, but I'm playing SC2 more, and I can't see that changing.
On August 23 2010 06:12 NiTrOuS wrote: I still mostly play and watch BW, not SCII. Only real time I play SCII is when my friend forces me to....
Lol me too, really the only reason why I kinda consider buying SC2 is because so many people play it, I even have co-workers that are not really gamers that play it.
On August 23 2010 06:23 Zato-1 wrote: Brood Wars is an excellent game, but when I'm playing an RTS, I'd rather spend more time playing the game (making units, harassing, vying for position, expanding, etc) and less time wrestling with the UI (sending each of my new workers to mine, selecting each of my 12 gateways and telling it to build a unit, etc. over and over again). I'll probably still fire up BW from time to time, but I'm playing SC2 more, and I can't see that changing.
Have you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?
On August 23 2010 06:12 NiTrOuS wrote: I still mostly play and watch BW, not SCII. Only real time I play SCII is when my friend forces me to....
Lol me too, really the only reason why I kinda consider buying SC2 is because so many people play it, I even have co-workers that are not really gamers that play it.
Well I was at a friend's birthday gig and I was talking to my friend about SCBW and someone heard me say Terran and asked if we were talking about SC2. The conversation then turned into SC2 and one of the girlfriends heard and said to her bf "isn't that the game your mum plays?" to which he replied "yeah". instant -_____________- face LOL
Omg...before SC2 came out, I was THE guy who always talk about it like with other guys about strategies and stuff. Now SC2 came out, like EVERYONE was playing the game, I don't feel 'unique' anymore cuz it use to be my 'thing'
Been playing BW for a decade, and don't see myself ever stopping. I bought SC2 but I will not be a purchaser of the 2nd and 3rd expansions for the trilogy. What I have seen in SC2 does not make me happy. In fact it makes me sad. It is not the minutia of detail that Brood War had; it is a completely different game in my eyes, and I don't need a new game, when I have the most perfect game; Brood War :-)
In reference to the original topic; if you want your dosage of Brood War, look to South Korea for it they do not get won-over by graphics, and they will be playing Brood War for years to come. Flash and Jaedong are proof that Brood War has something that no other game can ever deliver.
On August 23 2010 06:23 Zato-1 wrote: Brood Wars is an excellent game, but when I'm playing an RTS, I'd rather spend more time playing the game (making units, harassing, vying for position, expanding, etc) and less time wrestling with the UI (sending each of my new workers to mine, selecting each of my 12 gateways and telling it to build a unit, etc. over and over again). I'll probably still fire up BW from time to time, but I'm playing SC2 more, and I can't see that changing.
Have you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?
I still don't know which game has the best future from the point of view of a spectator, but as far as playing the games? Starcraft 2 is not an easier game (by its very definition, it can't be; in player vs. player combat, difficulty depends on the skill of your opponent), but it's certainly more user-friendly, which I appreciate greatly.
On August 23 2010 06:23 Zato-1 wrote: Brood Wars is an excellent game, but when I'm playing an RTS, I'd rather spend more time playing the game (making units, harassing, vying for position, expanding, etc) and less time wrestling with the UI (sending each of my new workers to mine, selecting each of my 12 gateways and telling it to build a unit, etc. over and over again). I'll probably still fire up BW from time to time, but I'm playing SC2 more, and I can't see that changing.
Have you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?
I still don't know which game has the best future from the point of view of a spectator, but as far as playing the games? Starcraft 2 is not an easier game (by its very definition, it can't be; in player vs. player combat, difficulty depends on the skill of your opponent), but it's certainly more user-friendly, which I appreciate greatly.
sure sc2 is easier. just got MM push early for the massive dmg or insta gg. i know the game isnt balanced yet, but right now? be terran and your golden
On August 23 2010 06:23 Zato-1 wrote: Brood Wars is an excellent game, but when I'm playing an RTS, I'd rather spend more time playing the game (making units, harassing, vying for position, expanding, etc) and less time wrestling with the UI (sending each of my new workers to mine, selecting each of my 12 gateways and telling it to build a unit, etc. over and over again). I'll probably still fire up BW from time to time, but I'm playing SC2 more, and I can't see that changing.
Have you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?
I still don't know which game has the best future from the point of view of a spectator, but as far as playing the games? Starcraft 2 is not an easier game (by its very definition, it can't be; in player vs. player combat, difficulty depends on the skill of your opponent), but it's certainly more user-friendly, which I appreciate greatly.
sure sc2 is easier. just got MM push early for the massive dmg or insta gg. i know the game isnt balanced yet, but right now? be terran and your golden
[begin uninformed stereotype]I hear you can also win easy in BW, just pick Protoss and 1a2a3a. [/end uninformed stereotype]
On August 23 2010 06:23 Zato-1 wrote: Brood Wars is an excellent game, but when I'm playing an RTS, I'd rather spend more time playing the game (making units, harassing, vying for position, expanding, etc) and less time wrestling with the UI (sending each of my new workers to mine, selecting each of my 12 gateways and telling it to build a unit, etc. over and over again). I'll probably still fire up BW from time to time, but I'm playing SC2 more, and I can't see that changing.
Have you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?
I still don't know which game has the best future from the point of view of a spectator, but as far as playing the games? Starcraft 2 is not an easier game (by its very definition, it can't be; in player vs. player combat, difficulty depends on the skill of your opponent), but it's certainly more user-friendly, which I appreciate greatly.
sure sc2 is easier. just got MM push early for the massive dmg or insta gg. i know the game isnt balanced yet, but right now? be terran and your golden
[begin uninformed stereotype]I hear you can also win easy in BW, just pick Protoss and 1a2a3a. [/end uninformed stereotype]
If one game is more imbalanced in certain matchups then the other then it is by definition easier. If Terran had a build order, for some reason, that was unbeatable then it would be an easier game in multiplayer.
That's stretching the idea to its logical extreme but you get what I'm saying.
On August 23 2010 23:16 Emon_ wrote: This whole IEM SC2 business makes the BW part of TL feel like a ghost town. Tumbleweed and all. Maybe its because of the off season in Korea
Off season? On the contrary its culmination of the BW season!
btw I just recently noticed that team logos are shown only in BW section ^^
On August 23 2010 23:22 TwoToneTerran wrote: If one game is more imbalanced in certain matchups then the other then it is by definition easier. If Terran had a build order, for some reason, that was unbeatable then it would be an easier game in multiplayer.
That's stretching the idea to its logical extreme but you get what I'm saying.
Yeah, my problem is with all the assumptions laced into that argument. If Zerg fits my playstyle the best, should I just switch to Terran in SC2 because they're better, even if my actual skill level with Terran is lower? If the answer is yes, then you'll just end up with a TvT mirrorfest, where balance is forcibly attained. Imbalanced matchups go both ways- one side is favored, while the counterpart needs a positive skill differential to compensate the innate racial imbalance.
By this token, you could argue that SC2 is easier than BW if you're a Terran player, but SC2 is harder than BW if you're a Zerg player- hardly conclusive that SC2 is an easier game overall.
Another reason SC2 seems easier is because the overall skill level on Battle.net 2.0 is way lower than what you'd get in iCCup. If you've played a good deal of Brood Wars, you're almost guaranteed a spot in the Diamond league; If you're a regular gamer but don't play RTS games that much, you can still probably make Platinum. But as long as you're playing opponents of similar skill level, SC2 should be just as competitive and 'difficult' to win in as BW.
On August 23 2010 06:23 Zato-1 wrote: Brood Wars is an excellent game, but when I'm playing an RTS, I'd rather spend more time playing the game (making units, harassing, vying for position, expanding, etc) and less time wrestling with the UI (sending each of my new workers to mine, selecting each of my 12 gateways and telling it to build a unit, etc. over and over again). I'll probably still fire up BW from time to time, but I'm playing SC2 more, and I can't see that changing.
Have you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?
I still don't know which game has the best future from the point of view of a spectator, but as far as playing the games? Starcraft 2 is not an easier game (by its very definition, it can't be; in player vs. player combat, difficulty depends on the skill of your opponent), but it's certainly more user-friendly, which I appreciate greatly.
sure sc2 is easier. just got MM push early for the massive dmg or insta gg. i know the game isnt balanced yet, but right now? be terran and your golden
[begin uninformed stereotype]I hear you can also win easy in BW, just pick Protoss and 1a2a3a. [/end uninformed stereotype]
If one game is more imbalanced in certain matchups then the other then it is by definition easier. If Terran had a build order, for some reason, that was unbeatable then it would be an easier game in multiplayer.
That's stretching the idea to its logical extreme but you get what I'm saying.
+ speaking in relative terms it is easier given influx of newbies in great masses.
yeah BW is dying i think. The problem is that it was an imba game, terran was the weakest race with the lowest win percentage. now in sc2 the game is actually balanced so why continue to play an imba game as BW is?
On August 24 2010 00:20 911insidejob wrote: yeah BW is dying i think. The problem is that it was an imba game, terran was the weakest race with the lowest win percentage. now in sc2 the game is actually balanced so why continue to play an imba game as BW is?
On August 24 2010 00:20 911insidejob wrote: yeah BW is dying i think. The problem is that it was an imba game, terran was the weakest race with the lowest win percentage. now in sc2 the game is actually balanced so why continue to play an imba game as BW is?
your user name makes that statement that much less believable.
But yeah on topic: I think broodwar is gonna last until the end of the 2010-2011 proleague season before we start seeing more dramatic drops in BW players, because once the pro scene for BW is finished, I doubt that people will stay with BW for too long. =\
On August 23 2010 06:23 Zato-1 wrote: Brood Wars is an excellent game, but when I'm playing an RTS, I'd rather spend more time playing the game (making units, harassing, vying for position, expanding, etc) and less time wrestling with the UI (sending each of my new workers to mine, selecting each of my 12 gateways and telling it to build a unit, etc. over and over again). I'll probably still fire up BW from time to time, but I'm playing SC2 more, and I can't see that changing.
Have you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?
I still don't know which game has the best future from the point of view of a spectator, but as far as playing the games? Starcraft 2 is not an easier game (by its very definition, it can't be; in player vs. player combat, difficulty depends on the skill of your opponent), but it's certainly more user-friendly, which I appreciate greatly.
Sc2 right now is way easier for new and shitty players then sc1. In sc2 you can compete with decent players after having played only a couple weeks, where in bw it would take like 6 months to a year.
On August 23 2010 06:23 Zato-1 wrote: Brood Wars is an excellent game, but when I'm playing an RTS, I'd rather spend more time playing the game (making units, harassing, vying for position, expanding, etc) and less time wrestling with the UI (sending each of my new workers to mine, selecting each of my 12 gateways and telling it to build a unit, etc. over and over again). I'll probably still fire up BW from time to time, but I'm playing SC2 more, and I can't see that changing.
Have you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?
I still don't know which game has the best future from the point of view of a spectator, but as far as playing the games? Starcraft 2 is not an easier game (by its very definition, it can't be; in player vs. player combat, difficulty depends on the skill of your opponent), but it's certainly more user-friendly, which I appreciate greatly.
sure sc2 is easier. just got MM push early for the massive dmg or insta gg. i know the game isnt balanced yet, but right now? be terran and your golden
[begin uninformed stereotype]I hear you can also win easy in BW, just pick Protoss and 1a2a3a. [/end uninformed stereotype]
that is uninformed, cus the protoss 1a2a3a thing has nothing to do with winning
I don't think korea will switch until sc2 is much better than what it is right now. BW is a massively better game for watching given that it's the better game, has the better players and the better fights.
I'll always play BW and follow the BW scene; to me Broodwar is a timeless game. I think the difference is broodwar is balanced much more elegantly, whereas SC2's balance seems forced. Broodwar is a better game from a spectators position. Things die way too fast in SC2 and battles end too quickly. I think it has to do with the damage bonus system. Everything in SC2 is scaled upwards in terms of damage. In Broodwar the bonus system was scaled down with different damage types. This allowed for a more gradually paced game as opposed to sc2 where the outcome is decided in one decisive battle (usually).
The whole situation is shame. I love watching BW the only game which really made it in tv with great players and great games. I am not usre if it's possible for sc2 to become even comparable game. It has design flaws from viewer point of view even if it's one day becomes more fun to play it probably won't make it bigtime in tv like BW. Base of people interested in watching BW will shrink though as every new player/potential fan of esports will go to sc2 and don't bother learning "old game". I think Blizzard screw esports up. I hope one day open source game suitable for esports will be made. Only this guarantee no company ruins esports and community with theirs ambitions.
On August 24 2010 01:32 daz wrote: Sc2 right now is way easier for new and shitty players then sc1. In sc2 you can compete with decent players after having played only a couple weeks, where in bw it would take like 6 months to a year.
You're just using a different standard for what being "decent" is. Is it being a D player in iCCup / 500 level diamond? C player in iCCup / 800 level diamond? B player in iCCup / 1000 level diamond?
As long as you're not using double standards for what being 'decent' means, I don't think it is significantly easier or harder to reach a certain skill level in either game. Of course, if you define a 'decent' BW player as someone who's a C rank in iCCup, and a 'decent' SC2 player as someone in a Gold division or better... then yeah, reaching that skill level is easier in SC2.
First off let me say that I love BW, I still watch OSL, MSL and SPL because they are fun, exciting and show technical play. BW is a very technical game that requires a tremendous amount of focus and knowledge as well as considerable hand speed. Hell, I played 1600 games of BW from August 2009 to May 2010 training specifically to play in CSL, BW consumed an eighth of my time (3 hours a day)!
However, this thread is filled with a lot of assumptions and comments that don't really make sense to me. I am not trying to flame or be mean in the way I address these issues so please excuse my frustrations.
A) there is this feeling that somehow SC2 is easier than SC1. I arguably think this is literally the worst notion ever! The reason that people lose to players with lower apm/skill/whatever-you-want-to-point-at is because they don't understand the game as well! In PvP I would regularly lose to my practice partner with 120 apm against my 180 because he understood the game and had a better sense of strategy and timings for BW. So if you hop on to SC2 and lose a game to some slow person who has played more than you, that is a result of their greater knowledge of the game! Now admittedly, SC2 is more user friendly with easier control group settings, left hand keyboard hotkey placement, and logical worker rally points BUT I have yet to see ANYONE play the game at a perfect level... not even the glorious Nada (see his show-matches against TLO). So this notion that "oh SC2 is easy because people beat me who aren't as fast or haven't played as much SC1 as me" is complete and total bunk because I am pretty damn sure we have all been beaten by someone who is slower or less mechanical but has great game sense and strategy!
B) The idea that the Koreans aren't accepting SC2 because they "know" BW is superior is also pure insanity! Have you all ever heard of oGs!? Great ex-BW players are immediately hopping on board with SC2! The release of SC2 was a HUGE deal in Korea and the only reason that BW still has such a large market is because of KESPA's stranglehold on the industry in Korea! Beyond that the new GSL league forming IN KOREA (a little over a month after SC2 was released) is on a scale unprecedented in size, prize pool and international participation! If anything, SC2 is growing at a rate that makes BW seem silly.
C) Imbalance in SC2 is also a point I have to laugh at. The game has been officially released for less than a month and many of you posters are saying "IT WILL NEVER BE ANYTHING BECAUSE IT IS DESIGNED POORLY". HELLO!? Were you there for pre-Bw SC1!!!???? Are you even aware of the insanity of your statement!? The perfection of balance in BW took YEARS of both map developers, game designers and creative players working at a fast pace! Look at SC2 right now and compare it to the point at which SC1 was released and you will see that SC2 is clearly at a level of balance VASTLY superior to SC1! Additionally, the idea that T is so strong that all you need to do is mass early units is complete and utter stupidity! Look at the IEM tournament and you will see that 2 of the top four players were Zerg! Literally HALF the zerg in the tournament wound up finishing in the top four! Beyond that, does anyone remember when Bisu initially developed his Dt/Sair build and demolished Z causing a Revolution in the PvZ matchup? Because I am pretty sure that during the first few months of that, P had unbelievable win rates against Z that would dwarf the current SLIGHT favor in SC2 TvZ.
Now, I bet some of you are absolutely livid at this post, at me, and at SC2 right about now BUT I want to leave you with one final thing. I love BW and I even go on once or twice a week to practice my BOs, get in a game or two, and practice my full hand extensions. The game is amazing, fabulous and will go down as THE RTS of ALL time (no SC2 if no SC1). But, putting your head in the sand and not even trying to understand SC2 and the implications for it's rise to power as an E-Sports machine is literally betraying the work of OUR heroes like Boxer, Iloveoov, and all the other great BW players who worked harder than anyone amongst us to make E-Sports into what it is in Korea and what it can potentially be with the release of SC2.
First off let me say that I love BW, I still watch OSL, MSL and SPL because they are fun, exciting and show technical play. BW is a very technical game that requires a tremendous amount of focus and knowledge as well as considerable hand speed. Hell, I played 1600 games of BW from August 2009 to May 2010 training specifically to play in CSL, BW consumed an eighth of my time (3 hours a day)!
However, this thread is filled with a lot of assumptions and comments that don't really make sense to me. I am not trying to flame or be mean in the way I address these issues so please excuse my frustrations.
A) there is this feeling that somehow SC2 is easier than SC1. I arguably think this is literally the worst notion ever! The reason that people lose to players with lower apm/skill/whatever-you-want-to-point-at is because they don't understand the game as well! In PvP I would regularly lose to my practice partner with 120 apm against my 180 because he understood the game and had a better sense of strategy and timings for BW. So if you hop on to SC2 and lose a game to some slow person who has played more than you, that is a result of their greater knowledge of the game! Now admittedly, SC2 is more user friendly with easier control group settings, left hand keyboard hotkey placement, and logical worker rally points BUT I have yet to see ANYONE play the game at a perfect level... not even the glorious Nada (see his show-matches against TLO). So this notion that "oh SC2 is easy because people beat me who aren't as fast or haven't played as much SC1 as me" is complete and total bunk because I am pretty damn sure we have all been beaten by someone who is slower or less mechanical but has great game sense and strategy!
B) The idea that the Koreans aren't accepting SC2 because they "know" BW is superior is also pure insanity! Have you all ever heard of oGs!? Great ex-BW players are immediately hopping on board with SC2! The release of SC2 was a HUGE deal in Korea and the only reason that BW still has such a large market is because of KESPA's stranglehold on the industry in Korea! Beyond that the new GSL league forming IN KOREA (a little over a month after SC2 was released) is on a scale unprecedented in size, prize pool and international participation! If anything, SC2 is growing at a rate that makes BW seem silly.
C) Imbalance in SC2 is also a point I have to laugh at. The game has been officially released for less than a month and many of you posters are saying "IT WILL NEVER BE ANYTHING BECAUSE IT IS DESIGNED POORLY". HELLO!? Were you there for pre-Bw SC1!!!???? Are you even aware of the insanity of your statement!? The perfection of balance in BW took YEARS of both map developers, game designers and creative players working at a fast pace! Look at SC2 right now and compare it to the point at which SC1 was released and you will see that SC2 is clearly at a level of balance VASTLY superior to SC1! Additionally, the idea that T is so strong that all you need to do is mass early units is complete and utter stupidity! Look at the IEM tournament and you will see that 2 of the top four players were Zerg! Literally HALF the zerg in the tournament wound up finishing in the top four! Beyond that, does anyone remember when Bisu initially developed his Dt/Sair build and demolished Z causing a Revolution in the PvZ matchup? Because I am pretty sure that during the first few months of that, P had unbelievable win rates against Z that would dwarf the current SLIGHT favor in SC2 TvZ.
Now, I bet some of you are absolutely livid at this post, at me, and at SC2 right about now BUT I want to leave you with one final thing. I love BW and I even go on once or twice a week to practice my BOs, get in a game or two, and practice my full hand extensions. The game is amazing, fabulous and will go down as THE RTS of ALL time (no SC2 if no SC1). But, putting your head in the sand and not even trying to understand SC2 and the implications for it's rise to power as an E-Sports machine is literally betraying the work of OUR heroes like Boxer, Iloveoov, and all the other great BW players who worked harder than anyone amongst us to make E-Sports into what it is in Korea and what it can potentially be with the release of SC2.
<3
my god I can TASTE the passion in this post haha
well put, but honestly... can this stupid thread stop popping up? I think the topic is really stupid. Flash and JD are tearing up the BW scene and anyone missing out is like missing out the best ice cream in history. Sure you might prefer popsicles instead but damn, that ice cream ^^
i know right, i get a little overzealous ive been watching it! can't wait for MSL Finals!!!! also Flash: "LOLOLOL WOOPS" Jd: "keke donglings y0" gotta love it!
I don't think anybody is calling it easier just because they lost to someone with lower apm, 'cause that would be plain retarded. People call it easier because there's less things to do than in BW due to the new AI doing a lot of things for you, resulting in less tasks to multi-task with (lol). Theoretically this would mean that SC2 has a lower skill ceiling than BW, and while yes nobody has perfected the game in all of its out-for-one-month glory it would take considerably less time for play to close in on "perfection" because of this.
No clue about your second point, haven't followed.
"IT WILL NEVER BE ANYTHING BECAUSE IT IS DESIGNED POORLY". HELLO!? Were you there for pre-Bw SC1!!!????
My comment was about design flaws from viewer's point of view. It's not about imbalance but about how the game looks to the viewier. In BW every unit counts. you can see every probe dying/fighting when 2/3 zerglings are harassing, you can see the difference between 5 drones surviving vs 6drones surviving. In big battles you hear every shot of the tank and you see how positioning of units is important. You can literally see what every unit is doing and how it affects the battle. In sc2 it's just ball on ball madness most of the time with shitload of workers on each base. If it weren't for a bar with unit count it would be difficult to grasp what's going on. Battles are fast encounters of balls. In BW you often have sieged tanks defending their position for several minutes while other players tries drops or surround. I am not sure if Blizzard is willing to fix sound but it's another big issue from viewer's point of view. You can't deny BW sounds 100x better...
I tried SC2, but I can't get into it. I feel that if I liked SC2, I would have liked most of the other RTS released these last 10 years (SupCom, DoW, CoH...). But I didn't, so I didn't like SC2 either.
It lacks the thing that I like the most of SCBW: Simplicity. Everything is so simple and plain, yet so engaging. Just mirror goon+zealot micro is so intense, without charges or blinks. SC2 has a ton of complications (just like all these new RTS), abilities, etc. Graphics are way more clogged and units and battles harder to understand. And we're at the first expansion. I can't even imagine what SC2's 3rd expansion will look like.
I think I'll never replace BW as the RTS for me.
About the rage towards SC2: I'm angry at SC2 because:
1) Lots and lots of people were willing to pick SC2 over SC1 no matter it's quality, just because it's newer. And if you say "we know it's a quality competitive title!" you're lying. Nobody knows that until the game is half-mastered and all of it's expansions released. And even before the beta many people wanted SC2 to replace SCBW.
2) Blizzard trying to force the SC2-> SC1 transition by claiming copyright rights over SC1 (that I hope will never fully happen).
3) One of my favourite websites, a SCBW pro-scene site, became more of a SC2-Activision Blizzard fan-site.
1) Far too many particle effects - covers up all your units, makes it impossible to spectate easily 2) Little awesome control (muta micro, goon vs zeals, MM vs lurker/ling/filer, etc), all the control in SC2 is just flanking (which is made less important by autosurround) and kiting. 3) Spells are far less "imba" in SC2: see storms, plaguu, swarm, irradiate, and so on, compared to fungal growth, seeker missile, SC2 storm. They're all far less game changing than the SC1 spells - meaning it's far harder to come back from a disadvantage. 4) Continuing that, easier macro means it's incredibly hard to outmacro your opponents - I can do near-perfect macro as Z, whereas I'd be hard-pushed to keep under 500 minerals in SC1. This means that, again, it's much harder to come back from a disadvantage. 5) In addition, the removal of "defenders advantage" (ie, miss-chance up hill) also pushes this - firstly, it makes it much harder to come back if your opponent attempts to make a large attack on your base, and in addition, reduces the potential for strategic placement of units - tanks on high ground were incredibly effective, likewise with other units. This gives another incentive to move out of your base - controlling the highground allows you to defend your other bases whilst harrassing because you'll need less units to defend from backstabs. 6) Blizzard are trying to force the game into ESPORTS ESPORTS ESPORTS, instead of focusing on gameplay. 7) Zerg design is just boring - where's the fun? Mass roaches, mass lings, neither are particularly fun to play with, whereas T get reapers, mauraders (lol, slow), hellions, vikings and so on and P get blink stalkers, chargelots, sentries, collosi - units which take an ounce of thought to use, whereas z units are basically designed to a-move and get back to macro. Banelings are the only particularly "skillful" zerg unit to use, although really, they're the poor zerg's reaver. 8) They didn't implement SC1 models into the editor, despite promising. 9) SC2 is popular because of it's brand fame, and people have blind faith in it because they've seen "ESPORTS!" in action, and want in on a piece of the cash and fame themselves. 10) Ball vs ball combat. How interesting to watch.
On August 24 2010 02:37 MagnusHyperion wrote: The game is amazing, fabulous and will go down as THE RTS of ALL time (no SC2 if no SC1). But, putting your head in the sand and not even trying to understand SC2 and the implications for it's rise to power as an E-Sports machine is literally betraying the work of OUR heroes like Boxer, Iloveoov, and all the other great BW players who worked harder than anyone amongst us to make E-Sports into what it is in Korea and what it can potentially be with the release of SC2. <3
This is where you lost all credibility as a BW player to me. It's quite obvious from this paragraph that you want BW to die, to be replaced. And if you've read all the replies in this thread, you'd notice that most of the people here don't CARE about SC2. They don't care about it's supposed imbalance, it's easiness or whatever. So your overly passionate post about those individuals who actually bring out those points to "prove" that BW is better than SC2 in some way is quite pointless.
The thing is, we were quite happy with our BW and we would continue to be happy about it and most of us would see SC2 as 'just another game', until SC2 started to directly interfere with BW's future (Blizzard being greedy etc.). And saying we are 'betraying' the work of Boxer and co. is, for the lack of better word, quite rude to say to us. Those people worked hard because they loved the game, not because they saw a future of ESPORTs in it. I don't know how much you are familiar with an early history of BW, but things back then were happening simply because of one reason. The passion for game, passion for BW. And the things that are happening right now are happening for the passion for "ESPORTs", or more correctly, passion to try to make money out of it. And this makes me sick. Now I know we're living in "real" world and all... but do you really think those players that formed houses where they can play BW all day long cared about money? Of course not, and whole ESPORTs/SC2 seems to be centered around that, not around the game.
And I'll finish my post with a quote from Boxer's biography - Crazy As Me:
After my encounter with Starcraft, my head was filled completely with the game, whether I was sitting or standing. I looked up the terminologies of Starcraft such as ‘zealot’ with the English-Korean dictionary that I had never used, and I fell completely into its world, saying things like, ‘Need more minerals’ when lunchtime drew near.
On August 24 2010 04:59 Garrl wrote: I dislike SC2 because:
1) Far too many particle effects - covers up all your units, makes it impossible to spectate easily 2) Little awesome control (muta micro, goon vs zeals, MM vs lurker/ling/filer, etc), all the control in SC2 is just flanking (which is made less important by autosurround) and kiting. 3) Spells are far less "imba" in SC2: see storms, plaguu, swarm, irradiate, and so on, compared to fungal growth, seeker missile, SC2 storm. They're all far less game changing than the SC1 spells - meaning it's far harder to come back from a disadvantage. 4) Continuing that, easier macro means it's incredibly hard to outmacro your opponents - I can do near-perfect macro as Z, whereas I'd be hard-pushed to keep under 500 minerals in SC1. This means that, again, it's much harder to come back from a disadvantage. 5) In addition, the removal of "defenders advantage" (ie, miss-chance up hill) also pushes this - firstly, it makes it much harder to come back if your opponent attempts to make a large attack on your base, and in addition, reduces the potential for strategic placement of units - tanks on high ground were incredibly effective, likewise with other units. This gives another incentive to move out of your base - controlling the highground allows you to defend your other bases whilst harrassing because you'll need less units to defend from backstabs. 6) Blizzard are trying to force the game into ESPORTS ESPORTS ESPORTS, instead of focusing on gameplay. 7) Zerg design is just boring - where's the fun? Mass roaches, mass lings, neither are particularly fun to play with, whereas T get reapers, mauraders (lol, slow), hellions, vikings and so on and P get blink stalkers, chargelots, sentries, collosi - units which take an ounce of thought to use, whereas z units are basically designed to a-move and get back to macro. Banelings are the only particularly "skillful" zerg unit to use, although really, they're the poor zerg's reaver. 8) They didn't implement SC1 models into the editor, despite promising. 9) SC2 is popular because of it's brand fame, and people have blind faith in it because they've seen "ESPORTS!" in action, and want in on a piece of the cash and fame themselves. 10) Ball vs ball combat. How interesting to watch.
i think this nails a lot of the things that make SC2 not as fun as BW for me, nice post :D
also I'd like to mention that the map design in SC2 sorta sucks IMO. really small maps make it that much easier to immediately kill the opponent after winning a battle (which leads to about 80% of all games ending after the 1st battle), and the design of naturals on most maps (or well all that aren't lost temple) make it way too hard to expand early leading to all sorts of lame 1-base vs 1-base games 2/3 of the time. I've had the most fun on SC2 playing games with my friends on the remake of fighting spirit lol (although I haven't played SC2 in a few weeks).
1) Far too many particle effects - covers up all your units, makes it impossible to spectate easily 2) Little awesome control (muta micro, goon vs zeals, MM vs lurker/ling/filer, etc), all the control in SC2 is just flanking (which is made less important by autosurround) and kiting. 3) Spells are far less "imba" in SC2: see storms, plaguu, swarm, irradiate, and so on, compared to fungal growth, seeker missile, SC2 storm. They're all far less game changing than the SC1 spells - meaning it's far harder to come back from a disadvantage. 4) Continuing that, easier macro means it's incredibly hard to outmacro your opponents - I can do near-perfect macro as Z, whereas I'd be hard-pushed to keep under 500 minerals in SC1. This means that, again, it's much harder to come back from a disadvantage. 5) In addition, the removal of "defenders advantage" (ie, miss-chance up hill) also pushes this - firstly, it makes it much harder to come back if your opponent attempts to make a large attack on your base, and in addition, reduces the potential for strategic placement of units - tanks on high ground were incredibly effective, likewise with other units. This gives another incentive to move out of your base - controlling the highground allows you to defend your other bases whilst harrassing because you'll need less units to defend from backstabs. 6) Blizzard are trying to force the game into ESPORTS ESPORTS ESPORTS, instead of focusing on gameplay. 7) Zerg design is just boring - where's the fun? Mass roaches, mass lings, neither are particularly fun to play with, whereas T get reapers, mauraders (lol, slow), hellions, vikings and so on and P get blink stalkers, chargelots, sentries, collosi - units which take an ounce of thought to use, whereas z units are basically designed to a-move and get back to macro. Banelings are the only particularly "skillful" zerg unit to use, although really, they're the poor zerg's reaver. 8) They didn't implement SC1 models into the editor, despite promising. 9) SC2 is popular because of it's brand fame, and people have blind faith in it because they've seen "ESPORTS!" in action, and want in on a piece of the cash and fame themselves. 10) Ball vs ball combat. How interesting to watch.
Good post. About your specific points:
2) MM vs. lurker/ling/defiler is your strongest example. Dark Swarm is a very powerful spell, which requires micro to use properly, but your opponent can also micro against it, making for a very fun and dynamic interaction; the closest you get in SC2 is running a unit away when it's targetted by the Raven's Seeker Missile, which is... well, boring by comparison. 3) Asymmetrical combat is good. It's one of the reasons why SC and BW were so fun in the first place. And yet, SC2 brought the 3 races together a lot more than I would've liked. You get players like -orb- who do marvelous things with Sentries and Force Fields, but for the most part, blob vs. blob is far too common. It's very rare to see tactically genius play turn battles and games around. 7) Agreed. I find Zerg to be an uninspiring and badly designed race.
For these reasons, I guess BW is altogether a superior game from a spectator's point of view, graphics aside.
One more point you didn't touch: No LAN. Don't know how many of you saw the IEM games, but there was this one game - IdrA vs. Sarens on Delta Quadrant, iirc - where the game had to be paused for like 5 mins. due to horrible server lag. There were also complaints about command lag by the players. What the hell, Blizzard? If that's not an eSPORTS killer, I don't know what is; and this is not the first tournament that's suffered from this problem.
A big counterpoint to all this, is that SC2 is prettier- which is actually really important as far as a spectator sport is concerned.
I play SC2 because BW's UI is just way too outdated for a casual player like me. However, I can't get into SC2's tournament scene at all. The skill level is just way too low right now compared to BW. Even Hyuk's skill is bonjwa level compared to the top SC2 players.
I tried watching some top level games. It's just way too easy for both players to get to 200/200 and they still dance around each other while their min/gas count easily goes into the thousands. It's almost like war3 with the dumb defender's advantages. I saw a Dimaga game where his opponent hit 10k minerals.
On August 24 2010 04:59 Garrl wrote: I dislike SC2 because:
1) Far too many particle effects - covers up all your units, makes it impossible to spectate easily 2) Little awesome control (muta micro, goon vs zeals, MM vs lurker/ling/filer, etc), all the control in SC2 is just flanking (which is made less important by autosurround) and kiting. 3) Spells are far less "imba" in SC2: see storms, plaguu, swarm, irradiate, and so on, compared to fungal growth, seeker missile, SC2 storm. They're all far less game changing than the SC1 spells - meaning it's far harder to come back from a disadvantage. 4) Continuing that, easier macro means it's incredibly hard to outmacro your opponents - I can do near-perfect macro as Z, whereas I'd be hard-pushed to keep under 500 minerals in SC1. This means that, again, it's much harder to come back from a disadvantage. 5) In addition, the removal of "defenders advantage" (ie, miss-chance up hill) also pushes this - firstly, it makes it much harder to come back if your opponent attempts to make a large attack on your base, and in addition, reduces the potential for strategic placement of units - tanks on high ground were incredibly effective, likewise with other units. This gives another incentive to move out of your base - controlling the highground allows you to defend your other bases whilst harrassing because you'll need less units to defend from backstabs. 6) Blizzard are trying to force the game into ESPORTS ESPORTS ESPORTS, instead of focusing on gameplay. 7) Zerg design is just boring - where's the fun? Mass roaches, mass lings, neither are particularly fun to play with, whereas T get reapers, mauraders (lol, slow), hellions, vikings and so on and P get blink stalkers, chargelots, sentries, collosi - units which take an ounce of thought to use, whereas z units are basically designed to a-move and get back to macro. Banelings are the only particularly "skillful" zerg unit to use, although really, they're the poor zerg's reaver. 8) They didn't implement SC1 models into the editor, despite promising. 9) SC2 is popular because of it's brand fame, and people have blind faith in it because they've seen "ESPORTS!" in action, and want in on a piece of the cash and fame themselves. 10) Ball vs ball combat. How interesting to watch.
On August 23 2010 11:28 Zato-1 wrote: but as far as playing the games? Starcraft 2 is not an easier game (by its very definition, it can't be; in player vs. player combat, difficulty depends on the skill of your opponent), but it's certainly more user-friendly, which I appreciate greatly.
You are not presented the same tools as in SC:BW, therefore you can't make a comparison of one to another. SC2 is plainly a different game and its easier. Why is it easier? You're given more sophisticated tools to work with. If you possess more sophisticated tools, you will have a less difficult task ahead of you when you are faced with a situation you must respond to. That's trying to compare old to new when you're working with not only a completely different set of tools, but also a completely different environment to use them in. Also based on this quote, everyone who plays SC2 is a fraction of the skill required of top BW players since even the best of the SC2 players aren't even close to the top BW players. That's not coming out of my mind, you just implied that. I'm just agreeing with it.
On August 24 2010 05:45 andrewlt wrote: I play SC2 because BW's UI is just way too outdated for a casual player like me. However, I can't get into SC2's tournament scene at all. The skill level is just way too low right now compared to BW. Even Hyuk's skill is bonjwa level compared to the top SC2 players.
I tried watching some top level games. It's just way too easy for both players to get to 200/200 and they still dance around each other while their min/gas count easily goes into the thousands. It's almost like war3 with the dumb defender's advantages. I saw a Dimaga game where his opponent hit 10k minerals.
yea the "pro" scene (not sure if we should call it pro since im not sure how many of these guys are professionals outside of idra (aka it's their main source of income) of SC2 is pretty garbage to me right now. most pro players just seem to do really cheesy all-ins and play just absolutely retarded. If even I can see how stupid a lot of the decisions these players make are, then the pro scene sucks. maybe in a year it will be better but I think the top SC2 player right now is only kinda better than me. Like I think I can take a few games off of the top SC2 player right now. that's a horrible pro scene.
On August 24 2010 05:45 andrewlt wrote: I play SC2 because BW's UI is just way too outdated for a casual player like me. However, I can't get into SC2's tournament scene at all. The skill level is just way too low right now compared to BW. Even Hyuk's skill is bonjwa level compared to the top SC2 players.
I tried watching some top level games. It's just way too easy for both players to get to 200/200 and they still dance around each other while their min/gas count easily goes into the thousands. It's almost like war3 with the dumb defender's advantages. I saw a Dimaga game where his opponent hit 10k minerals.
yea the "pro" scene (not sure if we should call it pro since im not sure how many of these guys are professionals outside of idra (aka it's their main source of income) of SC2 is pretty garbage to me right now. most pro players just seem to do really cheesy all-ins and play just absolutely retarded. If even I can see how stupid a lot of the decisions these players make are, then the pro scene sucks. maybe in a year it will be better but I think the top SC2 player right now is only kinda better than me. Like I think I can take a few games off of the top SC2 player right now. that's a horrible pro scene.
Time for Rekrul to do a SC2 version of foreigners suck?
I'm still holding out hope though that SC2 can become a great game, and Blizzard is not too stubborn to make some important changes. As it stands now, the game is not good enough. I see the potential for SC2 to be so good if Blizzard would just add/remove/change some stuff but it's not there yet.
On August 24 2010 00:20 911insidejob wrote: yeah BW is dying i think. The problem is that it was an imba game, terran was the weakest race with the lowest win percentage. now in sc2 the game is actually balanced so why continue to play an imba game as BW is?
your user name makes that statement that much less believable.
But yeah on topic: I think broodwar is gonna last until the end of the 2010-2011 proleague season before we start seeing more dramatic drops in BW players, because once the pro scene for BW is finished, I doubt that people will stay with BW for too long. =\
Actually, what makes his statement much less believable is the fact that he's a D- troglodyte who slithered from that cesspit which is the iccup forums.
Also, ppl who are quitting BW because of some fad are just stupid. The hype will be over in a while and ppl will go back to BW, imo.
Funny how he said that SC2 is a "balanced" game though..
On August 24 2010 04:22 shalafi wrote: 3) One of my favourite websites, a SCBW pro-scene site, became more of a SC2-Activision Blizzard fan-site.
This is still frustrating as hell. Of course, a lot of the folks pushing amateur SC2 over professional BW were pushing amateur BW over professional BW.
Apparently, speaking English is more important than speaking Starcraft.
On August 24 2010 05:45 andrewlt wrote: I play SC2 because BW's UI is just way too outdated for a casual player like me. However, I can't get into SC2's tournament scene at all. The skill level is just way too low right now compared to BW. Even Hyuk's skill is bonjwa level compared to the top SC2 players.
I tried watching some top level games. It's just way too easy for both players to get to 200/200 and they still dance around each other while their min/gas count easily goes into the thousands. It's almost like war3 with the dumb defender's advantages. I saw a Dimaga game where his opponent hit 10k minerals.
I guess you don't know much about WC3 then. Where timing pushes and tower rushing are your bread and butter. You really can't play a defensive game in high level WC3 (unless you're playing HU, but even then it's very hard to pull off as playing defensive game means giving away the initiative and map control, which usually leads to disaster).
Here's an example of defensive play in WC3. Still pretty entertaining if you ask me.
1) Far too many particle effects - covers up all your units, makes it impossible to spectate easily 2) Little awesome control (muta micro, goon vs zeals, MM vs lurker/ling/filer, etc), all the control in SC2 is just flanking (which is made less important by autosurround) and kiting. 3) Spells are far less "imba" in SC2: see storms, plaguu, swarm, irradiate, and so on, compared to fungal growth, seeker missile, SC2 storm. They're all far less game changing than the SC1 spells - meaning it's far harder to come back from a disadvantage. 4) Continuing that, easier macro means it's incredibly hard to outmacro your opponents - I can do near-perfect macro as Z, whereas I'd be hard-pushed to keep under 500 minerals in SC1. This means that, again, it's much harder to come back from a disadvantage. 5) In addition, the removal of "defenders advantage" (ie, miss-chance up hill) also pushes this - firstly, it makes it much harder to come back if your opponent attempts to make a large attack on your base, and in addition, reduces the potential for strategic placement of units - tanks on high ground were incredibly effective, likewise with other units. This gives another incentive to move out of your base - controlling the highground allows you to defend your other bases whilst harrassing because you'll need less units to defend from backstabs. 6) Blizzard are trying to force the game into ESPORTS ESPORTS ESPORTS, instead of focusing on gameplay. 7) Zerg design is just boring - where's the fun? Mass roaches, mass lings, neither are particularly fun to play with, whereas T get reapers, mauraders (lol, slow), hellions, vikings and so on and P get blink stalkers, chargelots, sentries, collosi - units which take an ounce of thought to use, whereas z units are basically designed to a-move and get back to macro. Banelings are the only particularly "skillful" zerg unit to use, although really, they're the poor zerg's reaver. 8) They didn't implement SC1 models into the editor, despite promising. 9) SC2 is popular because of it's brand fame, and people have blind faith in it because they've seen "ESPORTS!" in action, and want in on a piece of the cash and fame themselves. 10) Ball vs ball combat. How interesting to watch.
Good post. About your specific points:
2) MM vs. lurker/ling/defiler is your strongest example. Dark Swarm is a very powerful spell, which requires micro to use properly, but your opponent can also micro against it, making for a very fun and dynamic interaction; the closest you get in SC2 is running a unit away when it's targetted by the Raven's Seeker Missile, which is... well, boring by comparison. 3) Asymmetrical combat is good. It's one of the reasons why SC and BW were so fun in the first place. And yet, SC2 brought the 3 races together a lot more than I would've liked. You get players like -orb- who do marvelous things with Sentries and Force Fields, but for the most part, blob vs. blob is far too common. It's very rare to see tactically genius play turn battles and games around. 7) Agreed. I find Zerg to be an uninspiring and badly designed race.
For these reasons, I guess BW is altogether a superior game from a spectator's point of view, graphics aside.
One more point you didn't touch: No LAN. Don't know how many of you saw the IEM games, but there was this one game - IdrA vs. Sarens on Delta Quadrant, iirc - where the game had to be paused for like 5 mins. due to horrible server lag. There were also complaints about command lag by the players. What the hell, Blizzard? If that's not an eSPORTS killer, I don't know what is; and this is not the first tournament that's suffered from this problem.
A big counterpoint to all this, is that SC2 is prettier- which is actually really important as far as a spectator sport is concerned.
Just read Garrl's post. Very matter-of-fact, and I agree with it completely.
Wanted to add to the "no LAN"-point -- it's completely ridiculous that everything has to go through their server. The five minute pause is one thing, but how about Nada getting disced vs littleguy or w/e his name is? His strategy had been revealed and they had to restart the whole match. In the end Nada lost, iirc.. they want to be a part of ESPORTS!!11ONEONE and they expect this kind of shit to be OK in money tournaments??
Also, SC2 might be "prettier", but I don't see how that is important in a "spectator sport"? If I want to see something "pretty", I'll go look at the fucking Mona Lisa.. if I want to see skill in an RTS game, I'll turn on the 2004 EVER OSL Finals. Aesthetics is not what makes a competitive sport great for the spectator; the proficiency of the competitors involved does.
The only reason you cant play "defensive" in WC3 is because you need your hero levels high, meaning you HAVE to creep. If you dont creep, you get outcreeped and lose, similar to if you play too defensive in BW, they will outexpand you.
On August 24 2010 07:48 Skyze wrote: The only reason you cant play "defensive" in WC3 is because you need your hero levels high, meaning you HAVE to creep. If you dont creep, you get outcreeped and lose, similar to if you play too defensive in BW, they will outexpand you.
You don't always need your hero levels high (human comes to mind again), you can also get exp from killing enemy units instead of creeping (but it's not a problem for human players, who can creep while putting up a defensive game) and overwhelming early battles with superior units or just greater numbers.
For D+ players SC2 is more fun to play because you're actually in the top few players haha, but BW remains better to watch - I think people are just still caught up in the 'new game' hype as well as seeing all their favourite top foreign players that they can cheer for.
On August 24 2010 11:24 deL wrote: For D+ players SC2 is more fun to play because you're actually in the top few players haha, but BW remains better to watch - I think people are just still caught up in the 'new game' hype as well as seeing all their favourite top foreign players that they can cheer for.
This is correct. I still have wishes to have SC2 become a great and big E-Sport like its predecessor, but there's no debating the current situation. b'-')b
On August 24 2010 11:24 deL wrote: For D+ players SC2 is more fun to play because you're actually in the top few players haha, but BW remains better to watch - I think people are just still caught up in the 'new game' hype as well as seeing all their favourite top foreign players that they can cheer for.
This is true for me but there's still a huge skill gap between low/mid diamond and high diamond, which is where the "real" top players are.
On August 24 2010 11:24 deL wrote: For D+ players SC2 is more fun to play because you're actually in the top few players haha, but BW remains better to watch - I think people are just still caught up in the 'new game' hype as well as seeing all their favourite top foreign players that they can cheer for.
I actually prefer watching SC2 over BW I think the more you play a game the more relatable the replays or live streams your are watching become. As soon as I stopped playing BW for SC2 Bw became more and more boring while SC2 became better and better. They're still both amazing.
On August 24 2010 05:45 andrewlt wrote: I play SC2 because BW's UI is just way too outdated for a casual player like me. However, I can't get into SC2's tournament scene at all. The skill level is just way too low right now compared to BW. Even Hyuk's skill is bonjwa level compared to the top SC2 players.
I tried watching some top level games. It's just way too easy for both players to get to 200/200 and they still dance around each other while their min/gas count easily goes into the thousands. It's almost like war3 with the dumb defender's advantages. I saw a Dimaga game where his opponent hit 10k minerals.
yea the "pro" scene (not sure if we should call it pro since im not sure how many of these guys are professionals outside of idra (aka it's their main source of income) of SC2 is pretty garbage to me right now. most pro players just seem to do really cheesy all-ins and play just absolutely retarded. If even I can see how stupid a lot of the decisions these players make are, then the pro scene sucks. maybe in a year it will be better but I think the top SC2 player right now is only kinda better than me. Like I think I can take a few games off of the top SC2 player right now. that's a horrible pro scene.
Haha I thought it was just myself being delusional, but I wanted to sell out and see if I could cash in on SC2. Still probably me being delusional, but still it's fun to think about. Let's go make a proteam yo~ haha.
And the main thing I hate in SC2 is blob vs blob for sure.
On August 24 2010 11:24 deL wrote: For D+ players SC2 is more fun to play because you're actually in the top few players haha, but BW remains better to watch - I think people are just still caught up in the 'new game' hype as well as seeing all their favourite top foreign players that they can cheer for.
I dunno, i'm one of those shitty D+ players but i'd still much rather play BW against someone my skill level than SC2. It's just impossible to load up ICCUP and get a game against someone who isn't way better/worse than me. SC2s matchmaking is far more convinient.
On August 24 2010 14:31 faction123 wrote: I dunno, i'm one of those shitty D+ players but i'd still much rather play BW against someone my skill level than SC2. It's just impossible to load up ICCUP and get a game against someone who isn't way better/worse than me. SC2s matchmaking is far more convinient.
The state of the D ladder has indeed gotten worse for those of us still sticking around. That's the half-empty viewpoint at least. Looking at it the other way, you have plenty more opportunities to learn by playing people far better than yourself. The kind of practice you can get as a D player right now is FAR better in quality than it was before the beta. The problem then is once you become a C-/C player it's a LOT harder to surmount higher skill gaps since the best practice is playing SC2.
Personally, SC2 is growing one me. I've been going through the campaign both loving and hating certain features. Overall, I'm glad I gave the game a shot. At the rate I'm going I'll play my placement games around the weekend and see if this barely-D+ zerg isn't platinum material. I gotta admit - figuring out new strategies on a new platform is exciting. I wonder how long this will hold up. Still, I always have broodwar to return to, and I plan on seeing it regularly!
I'm about to reformat my bw pc and I won't be playing anymore. But I could go through and get a rep pack of maybe 100+ games of myself vs top foreigners and progamers on ladder on iccup (I was terran and B-/B level) if anyone still plays or thinks they would be interested or trying to improve I guess I might do that.
Like I have reps vs Upmagic, July, Grape, Firefist, Stats, Saint, Light and more.
I ask cuz it'll take a couple hours of work going through everything and I don't want to waste time if nobody would care.
On August 24 2010 11:24 deL wrote: For D+ players SC2 is more fun to play because you're actually in the top few players haha, but BW remains better to watch - I think people are just still caught up in the 'new game' hype as well as seeing all their favourite top foreign players that they can cheer for.
I dunno, i'm one of those shitty D+ players but i'd still much rather play BW against someone my skill level than SC2. It's just impossible to load up ICCUP and get a game against someone who isn't way better/worse than me. SC2s matchmaking is far more convinient.
I'm only C- but BW is a lot more fun for me to play. In SC2 I had about a 60+ percent winrate, but BW it's about 35%. losing is what usually motivates me to keep playing lol. the game is just a lot more fun if you're always feeling behind and pressed (to me at least). I hated being matched up with people worse than me all the time in SC2.
On August 24 2010 14:31 faction123 wrote: I dunno, i'm one of those shitty D+ players but i'd still much rather play BW against someone my skill level than SC2. It's just impossible to load up ICCUP and get a game against someone who isn't way better/worse than me. SC2s matchmaking is far more convinient.
The state of the D ladder has indeed gotten worse for those of us still sticking around. That's the half-empty viewpoint at least. Looking at it the other way, you have plenty more opportunities to learn by playing people far better than yourself. The kind of practice you can get as a D player right now is FAR better in quality than it was before the beta. The problem then is once you become a C-/C player it's a LOT harder to surmount higher skill gaps since the best practice is playing SC2.
Personally, SC2 is growing one me. I've been going through the campaign both loving and hating certain features. Overall, I'm glad I gave the game a shot. At the rate I'm going I'll play my placement games around the weekend and see if this barely-D+ zerg isn't platinum material. I gotta admit - figuring out new strategies on a new platform is exciting. I wonder how long this will hold up. Still, I always have broodwar to return to, and I plan on seeing it regularly!
You'll probably place in diamond. Everyone I know who was at least D+ did.
On August 25 2010 08:01 LuckyFool wrote: I'm about to reformat my bw pc and I won't be playing anymore. But I could go through and get a rep pack of maybe 100+ games of myself vs top foreigners and progamers on ladder on iccup (I was terran and B-/B level) if anyone still plays or thinks they would be interested or trying to improve I guess I might do that.
Like I have reps vs Upmagic, July, Grape, Firefist, Stats, Saint, Light and more.
I ask cuz it'll take a couple hours of work going through everything and I don't want to waste time if nobody would care.
On August 25 2010 08:01 LuckyFool wrote: I'm about to reformat my bw pc and I won't be playing anymore. But I could go through and get a rep pack of maybe 100+ games of myself vs top foreigners and progamers on ladder on iccup (I was terran and B-/B level) if anyone still plays or thinks they would be interested or trying to improve I guess I might do that.
Like I have reps vs Upmagic, July, Grape, Firefist, Stats, Saint, Light and more.
I ask cuz it'll take a couple hours of work going through everything and I don't want to waste time if nobody would care.
Personally I play both games and I enjoy them both for different reasons. People seem to think that they can only play one of them and the other one must DIE DIE DIE. Seriously, just chill out and play whatever you have fun with, be it SC1, 2 or both.
Hello gents. Sc2 player here. I was never a big RTS player but I guess it started with Age of Mythology and moved onto WC3 and then SC2. Tried to get into BW many times. For me the learning curve was simply too hard. Add in the interface and it was really just too steep for me. Truth be told I would actually love to get some experience with BW as it's truly survived the test of time. Also my friends tease me for not playing it since I'm Korean.
Anyway, I'm having lots of fun with SC2 and though I've played shooters (namely CS) in leagues like CAL (got to im) nothing quite feels as good as finishing a solid game of SC2 sweating and shaking from the adrenaline (with my measly 100 apm). I'm only in gold league and from what I imagine the satisfaction of winning a game is only greater in BW.
On August 25 2010 08:01 LuckyFool wrote: I'm about to reformat my bw pc and I won't be playing anymore. But I could go through and get a rep pack of maybe 100+ games of myself vs top foreigners and progamers on ladder on iccup (I was terran and B-/B level) if anyone still plays or thinks they would be interested or trying to improve I guess I might do that.
Like I have reps vs Upmagic, July, Grape, Firefist, Stats, Saint, Light and more.
I ask cuz it'll take a couple hours of work going through everything and I don't want to waste time if nobody would care.
Wow if those are against the actual players I'd really appreciate those reps. It's hard enough as is to find ANY replay with a progamer in it so I'm sure a lot of people would care for those reps.
On August 25 2010 08:01 LuckyFool wrote: I'm about to reformat my bw pc and I won't be playing anymore. But I could go through and get a rep pack of maybe 100+ games of myself vs top foreigners and progamers on ladder on iccup (I was terran and B-/B level) if anyone still plays or thinks they would be interested or trying to improve I guess I might do that.
Like I have reps vs Upmagic, July, Grape, Firefist, Stats, Saint, Light and more.
I ask cuz it'll take a couple hours of work going through everything and I don't want to waste time if nobody would care.
Yes please. But if you need to format your hard drive and don't have time to sort your replays, just save the whole folder on a usb key, and do it when you have time ! I would love to see these games. I played a few times vs top foreigners and they demolished me. I assume the skill gap is as big between a B players and a korean progamer (no offense), but I would love to see these games. Thank you.
On August 24 2010 11:24 deL wrote: For D+ players SC2 is more fun to play because you're actually in the top few players haha, but BW remains better to watch - I think people are just still caught up in the 'new game' hype as well as seeing all their favourite top foreign players that they can cheer for.
I semi agree with this. A lot of low ranked BW players often find more success in SC2 since they are familiar with the game because of SC1. Although SC2 is a different game, it still has the basics that you need to have from SC1. I personally think both games are fun to watch, but it's all personal opinion. A lot of SC1 elitists will stick with SC1, which is fine, but there's no need to bash on people who like SC2. I still follow the pro scene for SC1 along with the growing SC2 scene.
I don't agree with your so called "new game hype" because obviously it will happen. A lot of people are playing SC2 a lot because it is actually an okay game so far, but needs some fixes like any other young game. We have seen a lot of comparison to the release of SC2 and how it might split the communities in two like CS 1.6 vs CS:S. The difference is that SC2 is actually good and not shitty like CS:S. SC2 is more than pretty graphics since it does require skill. It doesn't require as much as SC1 that is for sure, but you still need to put effort into the game if you want to go far.
On August 25 2010 08:01 LuckyFool wrote: I'm about to reformat my bw pc and I won't be playing anymore. But I could go through and get a rep pack of maybe 100+ games of myself vs top foreigners and progamers on ladder on iccup (I was terran and B-/B level) if anyone still plays or thinks they would be interested or trying to improve I guess I might do that.
Like I have reps vs Upmagic, July, Grape, Firefist, Stats, Saint, Light and more.
I ask cuz it'll take a couple hours of work going through everything and I don't want to waste time if nobody would care.
Yes please. But if you need to format your hard drive and don't have time to sort your replays, just save the whole folder on a usb key, and do it when you have time ! I would love to see these games. I played a few times vs top foreigners and they demolished me. I assume the skill gap is as big between a B players and a korean progamer (no offense), but I would love to see these games. Thank you.
Wow so many people interested!
The skill gap between korean pros and everyone else is huge. I get crushed in like every game except a few (usually had better TvP's) Beating Grape was prolly the best win of my joke of a bw career. At my best (mid/late 2009, during TSL ladder) my TvP was getting so good somehow lol.
I'm motivated now to take a big chunk of time tomorrow and do this. I'll probably post it in blog section and talk about all kinds of stuff. I'll link to it from here too.
Good to see people still into bw. And prozen is totally right. I don't plan to play much at all in the future but bw will always hold a special place in mah heart. <3
1) Far too many particle effects - covers up all your units, makes it impossible to spectate easily 2) Little awesome control (muta micro, goon vs zeals, MM vs lurker/ling/filer, etc), all the control in SC2 is just flanking (which is made less important by autosurround) and kiting. 3) Spells are far less "imba" in SC2: see storms, plaguu, swarm, irradiate, and so on, compared to fungal growth, seeker missile, SC2 storm. They're all far less game changing than the SC1 spells - meaning it's far harder to come back from a disadvantage. 4) Continuing that, easier macro means it's incredibly hard to outmacro your opponents - I can do near-perfect macro as Z, whereas I'd be hard-pushed to keep under 500 minerals in SC1. This means that, again, it's much harder to come back from a disadvantage. 5) In addition, the removal of "defenders advantage" (ie, miss-chance up hill) also pushes this - firstly, it makes it much harder to come back if your opponent attempts to make a large attack on your base, and in addition, reduces the potential for strategic placement of units - tanks on high ground were incredibly effective, likewise with other units. This gives another incentive to move out of your base - controlling the highground allows you to defend your other bases whilst harrassing because you'll need less units to defend from backstabs. 6) Blizzard are trying to force the game into ESPORTS ESPORTS ESPORTS, instead of focusing on gameplay. 7) Zerg design is just boring - where's the fun? Mass roaches, mass lings, neither are particularly fun to play with, whereas T get reapers, mauraders (lol, slow), hellions, vikings and so on and P get blink stalkers, chargelots, sentries, collosi - units which take an ounce of thought to use, whereas z units are basically designed to a-move and get back to macro. Banelings are the only particularly "skillful" zerg unit to use, although really, they're the poor zerg's reaver. 8) They didn't implement SC1 models into the editor, despite promising. 9) SC2 is popular because of it's brand fame, and people have blind faith in it because they've seen "ESPORTS!" in action, and want in on a piece of the cash and fame themselves. 10) Ball vs ball combat. How interesting to watch.
i realized that after playing sc2 for a while, i can no longer do a perfect split, coordinate a ling attack, or use defilers. Oh and I keep hitting V for overlords and end up supply blocked for half the game.
1) Far too many particle effects - covers up all your units, makes it impossible to spectate easily 2) Little awesome control (muta micro, goon vs zeals, MM vs lurker/ling/filer, etc), all the control in SC2 is just flanking (which is made less important by autosurround) and kiting. 3) Spells are far less "imba" in SC2: see storms, plaguu, swarm, irradiate, and so on, compared to fungal growth, seeker missile, SC2 storm. They're all far less game changing than the SC1 spells - meaning it's far harder to come back from a disadvantage. 4) Continuing that, easier macro means it's incredibly hard to outmacro your opponents - I can do near-perfect macro as Z, whereas I'd be hard-pushed to keep under 500 minerals in SC1. This means that, again, it's much harder to come back from a disadvantage. 5) In addition, the removal of "defenders advantage" (ie, miss-chance up hill) also pushes this - firstly, it makes it much harder to come back if your opponent attempts to make a large attack on your base, and in addition, reduces the potential for strategic placement of units - tanks on high ground were incredibly effective, likewise with other units. This gives another incentive to move out of your base - controlling the highground allows you to defend your other bases whilst harrassing because you'll need less units to defend from backstabs. 6) Blizzard are trying to force the game into ESPORTS ESPORTS ESPORTS, instead of focusing on gameplay. 7) Zerg design is just boring - where's the fun? Mass roaches, mass lings, neither are particularly fun to play with, whereas T get reapers, mauraders (lol, slow), hellions, vikings and so on and P get blink stalkers, chargelots, sentries, collosi - units which take an ounce of thought to use, whereas z units are basically designed to a-move and get back to macro. Banelings are the only particularly "skillful" zerg unit to use, although really, they're the poor zerg's reaver. 8) They didn't implement SC1 models into the editor, despite promising. 9) SC2 is popular because of it's brand fame, and people have blind faith in it because they've seen "ESPORTS!" in action, and want in on a piece of the cash and fame themselves. 10) Ball vs ball combat. How interesting to watch.
This pretty much sums it up for me, the main reason for me is that the spells are complete shit and overall the game-play just seems DULL, great post
After watching a few SC2 and BW tournaments I found myself yawning at the IEM SC2 finals, forcing myself to watch the finals, and in contrast almost screaming from excitement at the MSL BW finals. I'm giving up on SC2, sorry Day9.
On August 25 2010 08:01 LuckyFool wrote: I'm about to reformat my bw pc and I won't be playing anymore. But I could go through and get a rep pack of maybe 100+ games of myself vs top foreigners and progamers on ladder on iccup (I was terran and B-/B level) if anyone still plays or thinks they would be interested or trying to improve I guess I might do that.
Like I have reps vs Upmagic, July, Grape, Firefist, Stats, Saint, Light and more.
I ask cuz it'll take a couple hours of work going through everything and I don't want to waste time if nobody would care.
Yes please. But if you need to format your hard drive and don't have time to sort your replays, just save the whole folder on a usb key, and do it when you have time ! I would love to see these games. I played a few times vs top foreigners and they demolished me. I assume the skill gap is as big between a B players and a korean progamer (no offense), but I would love to see these games. Thank you.
Wow so many people interested!
The skill gap between korean pros and everyone else is huge. I get crushed in like every game except a few (usually had better TvP's) Beating Grape was prolly the best win of my joke of a bw career. At my best (mid/late 2009, during TSL ladder) my TvP was getting so good somehow lol.
I'm motivated now to take a big chunk of time tomorrow and do this. I'll probably post it in blog section and talk about all kinds of stuff. I'll link to it from here too.
Good to see people still into bw. And prozen is totally right. I don't plan to play much at all in the future but bw will always hold a special place in mah heart. <3
On August 25 2010 14:59 yelps wrote: I don't really think there's a motive to play brood war right now as a foreigner. Koreans are just miles ahead.
Now spectating games is a completely different story.
The motive is fun. Which is the only reason you should be playing a game. You shouldn't play sc2 cause you think you have a chance going pro and earn $ online? rather play poker then... Esport=pocket-money compared
if there is anything certain, it is change. Change does not care if you like it either you are willing to adapt or deal with it anyway you think fits. Sc once was an awful game broodwar and patches made it the rts jewel it is now. it may be sad but also blizzard needs to rego the path of balancing every frickin title they do. it is up to you if you want to adapt or you stick with a sinking boat. but be ensured with the power of the money pumped into sc2 it is going to become a great e-sports title. it grfx is made for being presentable for the years to come it is made for entertaining the masses. you find it boring to watch well nobody forces you to become a progamer in it but there is money you want it, you better find a way to adapt. for the companies already made clear where they are going to push the most money in which tournaments.
I don't know if somebody has said this yet but, Starcraft 2 JUST came out, one month ago, everyone and their grandmother is playing it, in a month or two people will start paying more attention to bw...
On September 03 2010 21:13 bobbingmatt wrote: I don't know if somebody has said this yet but, Starcraft 2 JUST came out, one month ago, everyone and their grandmother is playing it, in a month or two people will start paying more attention to bw...
I play few games a week. It is still the best game ever made amen to that ! Luckyfool sad to see you leaving as a player, please make time and post the replays you have. I am repeating myself, but i just don't see SC2 succeeding in realistic way. Even if you make patch that would fix everything and make the game balanced almost perfectly, it will still have the same flawed mechanics that makes it bad. Everything SC2 has is the money going into it, but it is really lacking as an e-sport game, but most people failing to realize that.
All the western ppl now prefer SC2 because is more popular and not really because it is in any way better than BW. Is just understandable after many years of: "do you know BW?" "what?"
I got an idea... SCBW is a nice simple game. From this game I learned >>> the basic pro plays, standard games, micro, macro, and in depth analysis of not only the matchup but also the metagame. ... If ever you have a friend who is willing to learn and get better at competitive play. Introduce him to SCBW first. It's like school. Getting into the "basics" first. BW is a very good stepping stone for RTS games. I imagine people in the future... looking at BW replays... searching for knowledge they could apply to their "advanced" games.
On September 03 2010 23:48 ztoa03 wrote: I got an idea... SCBW is a nice simple game. From this game I learned >>> the basic pro plays, standard games, micro, macro, and in depth analysis of not only the matchup but also the metagame. ... If ever you have a friend who is willing to learn and get better at competitive play. Introduce him to SCBW first. It's like school. Getting into the "basics" first. BW is a very good stepping stone for RTS games. I imagine people in the future... looking at BW replays... searching for knowledge they could apply to their "advanced" games.
See, that's a misconception held by many who are *relatively new to BW. I'm not sure what you mean by "basics," but hell, BW is one of the most complex RTS ever made. Not in the sense of the individual mechanics the game has, but the interplay between all these "simple" things that make the game so much more advanced than any other RTS to existence.
So here it is, the feeling of no brood war. There will be no pro games unitl next weekend and i already feel shitty about it. How are we gonna live if there is no next season...I please all gods, make bw go on. It is the best game ever and doesn't deserve to go like this. Hail to the king
On September 03 2010 23:48 ztoa03 wrote: I got an idea... SCBW is a nice simple game. From this game I learned >>> the basic pro plays, standard games, micro, macro, and in depth analysis of not only the matchup but also the metagame. ... If ever you have a friend who is willing to learn and get better at competitive play. Introduce him to SCBW first. It's like school. Getting into the "basics" first. BW is a very good stepping stone for RTS games. I imagine people in the future... looking at BW replays... searching for knowledge they could apply to their "advanced" games.
brood war has more strategy than starcraft 2 at this point in time
On September 05 2010 17:48 Ricjames wrote: So here it is, the feeling of no brood war. There will be no pro games unitl next weekend and i already feel shitty about it. How are we gonna live if there is no next season...I please all gods, make bw go on. It is the best game ever and doesn't deserve to go like this. Hail to the king
there's a time like this every year during the offseason lol
On September 03 2010 23:48 ztoa03 wrote: I got an idea... SCBW is a nice simple game. From this game I learned >>> the basic pro plays, standard games, micro, macro, and in depth analysis of not only the matchup but also the metagame. ... If ever you have a friend who is willing to learn and get better at competitive play. Introduce him to SCBW first. It's like school. Getting into the "basics" first. BW is a very good stepping stone for RTS games. I imagine people in the future... looking at BW replays... searching for knowledge they could apply to their "advanced" games.
Simple? I don't think you get the game then. BW appears simple, but try to actually get good. OMG, there are 20 different builds for the same units, with different timing attacks, different compositions, and... ahhh! Appears simple, but complex behind the curtains.
And that is its beauty. That's why it works for ESports. It looks simple which makes it easy to view as a newcomer, but it's complex which makes it intense to be a hardcore fan. Someone new sees Flash turtle and blow shit up, someone experienced sees a 14cc with a cleverly cut SCV in order to stop the timing push at _:__ which he somehow knew was coming due to... etc.
On September 03 2010 23:48 ztoa03 wrote: I got an idea... SCBW is a nice simple game. From this game I learned >>> the basic pro plays, standard games, micro, macro, and in depth analysis of not only the matchup but also the metagame. ... If ever you have a friend who is willing to learn and get better at competitive play. Introduce him to SCBW first. It's like school. Getting into the "basics" first. BW is a very good stepping stone for RTS games. I imagine people in the future... looking at BW replays... searching for knowledge they could apply to their "advanced" games.
saying broodwar is a stepping stone for other RTS games is like saying learning real guitar is a stepping stone to other music instrument like guitar hero. You calling bw "nice and simple" only tells us that you have little in-depth experience with it.
there isn't any more advanced, raw and challenging game than Broodwar right now. I hope what u said about future games being more advanced will be true.
On September 06 2010 04:42 Glider wrote: saying broodwar is a stepping stone for other RTS games is like saying learning real guitar is a stepping stone to other music instrument like guitar hero. You calling bw "nice and simple" only tells us that you have little in-depth experience with it.
there isn't any more advanced, raw and challenging game than Broodwar right now. I hope what u said about future games being more advanced will be true.
Agree on this point. However, not only BW is this way. Many older games are harder to play in comparison with newer games. Even RPG's. Brood War is really a challenging game to play.
On September 03 2010 23:48 ztoa03 wrote: I got an idea... SCBW is a nice simple game. From this game I learned >>> the basic pro plays, standard games, micro, macro, and in depth analysis of not only the matchup but also the metagame. ... If ever you have a friend who is willing to learn and get better at competitive play. Introduce him to SCBW first. It's like school. Getting into the "basics" first. BW is a very good stepping stone for RTS games. I imagine people in the future... looking at BW replays... searching for knowledge they could apply to their "advanced" games.
saying broodwar is a stepping stone for other RTS games is like saying learning real guitar is a stepping stone to other music instrument like guitar hero. You calling bw "nice and simple" only tells us that you have little in-depth experience with it.
there isn't any more advanced, raw and challenging game than Broodwar right now. I hope what u said about future games being more advanced will be true.
Since when lpaying guitar hero is playing an "instrument".
guitar hero is a video game, not much to do with playing an instrument.
Agree with you though, BW is prolly the most complex and difficult RTS ever made.
On September 03 2010 23:48 ztoa03 wrote: I got an idea... SCBW is a nice simple game. From this game I learned >>> the basic pro plays, standard games, micro, macro, and in depth analysis of not only the matchup but also the metagame. ... If ever you have a friend who is willing to learn and get better at competitive play. Introduce him to SCBW first. It's like school. Getting into the "basics" first. BW is a very good stepping stone for RTS games. I imagine people in the future... looking at BW replays... searching for knowledge they could apply to their "advanced" games.
saying broodwar is a stepping stone for other RTS games is like saying learning real guitar is a stepping stone to other music instrument like guitar hero. You calling bw "nice and simple" only tells us that you have little in-depth experience with it.
there isn't any more advanced, raw and challenging game than Broodwar right now. I hope what u said about future games being more advanced will be true.
Since when lpaying guitar hero is playing an "instrument".
guitar hero is a video game, not much to do with playing an instrument.
Agree with you though, BW is prolly the most complex and difficult RTS ever made.
*woosh* whoa, was that the sound of a point flying over someone's head?
On September 06 2010 18:45 tomatriedes wrote: I' m trying to convince myself that watching SC2 is fun because there's been so little BW recently but honestly, so far, I'm finding it pretty boring.
Watching the game and playing the game is 2 different feeling. I love watching BW games and playing it as well. Anyway, leagues are all over in korea. That could be the reason why.
I feel the same. I must have picked a bad time to start playing Brood War. I don't even know where to start with all the obstacles I seem to encounter.
Every time I try to Google something Starcraft related, SC2 results come up. Even if I add "brood war" to the search. The BW strategy section here is pretty much dead, the people in the IRC only talk about SC2, and all the noobs seem to play SC2. All this combined with the fact that my latency shoots up whenever I try to create a game in iCCup, so I have to log out, log in, and recreate a game about 6 times before people join, only to lose to a 200+ apm D- player.
I've been playing for 6 months and I just feel that I'm not improving at all. I wish I had a small clique of people I could play with consistently so at least I could get the practice I need to improve.
On September 06 2010 19:37 JuddCaster wrote: I feel the same. I must have picked a bad time to start playing Brood War. I don't even know where to start with all the obstacles I seem to encounter.
Every time I try to Google something Starcraft related, SC2 results come up. Even if I add "brood war" to the search. The BW strategy section here is pretty much dead, the people in the IRC only talk about SC2, and all the noobs seem to play SC2. All this combined with the fact that my latency shoots up whenever I try to create a game in iCCup, so I have to log out, log in, and recreate a game about 6 times before people join, only to lose to a 200+ apm D- player.
I've been playing for 6 months and I just feel that I'm not improving at all. I wish I had a small clique of people I could play with consistently so at least I could get the practice I need to improve.
Just to let you know... practice partners are available. Go to ICCUP forum and post your name there or take down people's ID and call them to be your practice partner. BTW, im available for games and needs improving...
I think I got my point messed up guys... sorry. What I meant was, SCBW has the foundations and new people could learn a lot from it. There is already an established knowledge database about it (Liquipedia). That would help us a lot in more games in the future (i.e. SC2, because the game has just been published).
I think an aspect of the popularity of bw/sc2 is also the availability of vods.
BW is going to suffer an even bigger hit with the demise of Jon747's channel on youtube, in recent times, baezzi's uploading was incredibly fast so you could see the hype threads for the OSL/SPL etc.. on TL, and then the next day go and watch the youtube replays, and still have that degree of hype going. (not everyone can stream so easily)
For the sc2 GSL, there were a million accounts being created on youtube uploading GSL games, and then you can just go to sites like dailymotion to find uploaded games. Sc2 Vods and games are easier to come by, AND have all these casters to comentate on the games, and at that time casters who explain the game as well to keep you entertained...
Currently for broodwars, we can only appreciate the level of excitement heard from the korean commentators.... But more importantly (it's still early to tell who's going to upload stuff - hurrah for tl's nevake channel?! :D), is that it's going to be hard to watch any of the pro games if we can only stream and rely on reading people's descriptions in the tourney threads of each game.
wbrood isnt much of an option if ur not in/near china to stream youku clips easily...
gah im still waiting for an awesome comeback from Bisu, but i think that even if he does, it'll go pretty unnoticed as most people will be too busy watching sc2 with rainbow coloured fruits in their eyes (not that that's a bad thing)
On October 17 2010 19:56 worosei wrote: I think an aspect of the popularity of bw/sc2 is also the availability of vods.
BW is going to suffer an even bigger hit with the demise of Jon747's channel on youtube, in recent times, baezzi's uploading was incredibly fast so you could see the hype threads for the OSL/SPL etc.. on TL, and then the next day go and watch the youtube replays, and still have that degree of hype going. (not everyone can stream so easily)
For the sc2 GSL, there were a million accounts being created on youtube uploading GSL games, and then you can just go to sites like dailymotion to find uploaded games. Sc2 Vods and games are easier to come by, AND have all these casters to comentate on the games, and at that time casters who explain the game as well to keep you entertained...
Currently for broodwars, we can only appreciate the level of excitement heard from the korean commentators.... But more importantly (it's still early to tell who's going to upload stuff - hurrah for tl's nevake channel?! :D), is that it's going to be hard to watch any of the pro games if we can only stream and rely on reading people's descriptions in the tourney threads of each game.
wbrood isnt much of an option if ur not in/near china to stream youku clips easily...
gah im still waiting for an awesome comeback from Bisu, but i think that even if he does, it'll go pretty unnoticed as most people will be too busy watching sc2 with rainbow coloured fruits in their eyes (not that that's a bad thing)
as if these guys compare to Bisu -_- fear Bisu lost it tho.... ah well never liked the guy anyway in the savior era ^^
On October 17 2010 20:29 chongu wrote: wait, why does everybody talk solely about jon747? isn't nevake an equally reliable/quick source of BW VODs? : <
I'm pretty sure you agree that two sources are better than one . Besides that, both accounts have unique videos that the other account does not (or did not) have. Baezzi had a lot of older games, additional footage of the leagues and korean tv shows. Nevake has all the TL specific videos (TSL, TSL attack, FPVODs, etc.)
And also, it feeds the fear, that what happened to Jon747 could also happen to Nevake, which really is a threatening and real possibility. It doesn't take too many crazy company-copyright guys to make that happen.
EPT
) play on ICCUP. There are more people watching some random dude (diamond league, but still @ 60 APM) watch his units fight, than there are people watching high level (or midlevel) broodwar games. There are more people watching Lz.Gamer (again no offense, Lz.Gamer is also awesome) ladder, than there are people watching the OSL (Damn Stork is so cool)
( I been playing BW and haven't stopped since the 1st beta phase ended! 
