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On July 18 2010 23:13 Superiorwolf wrote:Someone posted this earlier but I don't know if anyone saw it. Someone should go test this out! ![[image loading]](http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/6631/scscrnshot112309172244.png) Oh wait nvm, this is a different wall... he should have had the depot on the bottom iirc. So I guess it was true that the extractor did NOTHING. Wow, poor effort.
Yeah, it seems that the barracks has a much wider space to its left than the depot does.
On July 18 2010 23:55 C[SCL] wrote:
Perhaps fantasy knew that building the rax right at that spot could open up a hole, hence the depot above the gas. My two cents.
Building the rax there would also trap marines outside the wall. Especially given that the wall would be tight (barring any extractors), the marines would be trapped outside until the barracks was lifted.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
At any rate, fantasy was fooled, and pulled a few scvs specifically to plug that hole. And that was not the reason EffOrt lost that game. Fantasy's vulture micro over EffOrt's lurker thrust was what gave fanta the huge advantage, because EffOrt wasn't able to do enough damage to make up for his dead third.
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This is a good post, at least to me it explained the weirdness of effort's play.
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EffOrt should have just played normally 
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i dont understand numbers.. higher number=more space for units to pass through, lower number=less space for units to pass through or somethin?
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Hungary11305 Posts
On July 19 2010 02:43 Mobius wrote:
i dont understand numbers.. higher number=more space for units to pass through, lower number=less space for units to pass through or somethin?
Yes, and you have to take specific unit sizes into account: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/List_of_Unit_and_Building_Sizes
For example, Gateway above Forge gives 7 (Gateway lower space) + 8 (Forge upper space) = 15 passageway between them, which is just enough to block a Zergling which is 16 x 16. That's basically the reason why Protoss forge FE works and why we do not place Forges above Gateways (since that would be a gap of 27).
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On July 18 2010 23:13 Superiorwolf wrote:Someone posted this earlier but I don't know if anyone saw it. Someone should go test this out! Oh wait nvm, this is a different wall... he should have had the depot on the bottom iirc. So I guess it was true that the extractor did NOTHING. Wow, poor effort.
Depot has to be touching the top of the barracks to make a ling proof wall.
His barracks is like 1 square too far to the right
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United States47024 Posts
On July 18 2010 23:13 Superiorwolf wrote:Someone posted this earlier but I don't know if anyone saw it. Someone should go test this out! Oh wait nvm, this is a different wall... he should have had the depot on the bottom iirc. So I guess it was true that the extractor did NOTHING. Wow, poor effort.
IIRC it was confirmed in the thread this was posted in that the Barracks is too far to the right, and the wall isn't ling-tight regardless of the extractor.
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Hungary11305 Posts
On July 19 2010 03:01 arb wrote:
Depot has to be touching the top of the barracksGeyser to make a ling proof wall.
His barracks is like 1 square too far to the right
There 
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On July 19 2010 03:17 Aesop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 03:01 arb wrote:
Depot has to be touching the top of the barracksGeyser to make a ling proof wall.
His barracks is like 1 square too far to the right There
the barracks has to be touching the top of the geyser yes, but i always thought depots had to be touching some part of the top of the barracks for a ling proof wall?
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Hungary11305 Posts
On July 19 2010 03:19 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 03:17 Aesop wrote:On July 19 2010 03:01 arb wrote:
Depot has to be touching the top of the barracksGeyser to make a ling proof wall.
His barracks is like 1 square too far to the right There the barracks has to be touching the top of the geyser yes, but i always thought depots had to be touching some part of the top of the barracks for a ling proof wall?
That too. But in this case the problem was the barracks placement. I mutilated your text, of course the barracks would have to be touching the Geyser.
But yeah, Depot above Barracks is safe, Barracks above Depot isn't.
Anyway, back on topic. Surely Effort's play looked bad, but fantasy had clearly practiced a lot for this specific constellation. Fantasy used a weird fake from Bio to mech to Bio and even inviting Effort to try the ling break.
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Baa?21248 Posts
Lx called Effort's play "amateur" for that mistake haha.
I can't believe Effort didn't actually practice the Extractor trick...?
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On July 18 2010 20:47 SubtleArt wrote:Ah well Fantasy's gay vulture drop rush --> valk build got figured out. Only a matter of time until this stupid bio -> mech shit does too right? RIIIIIGHT? Actually I wasn't watching the game too closely, fantasy faked a bio opening then came out with a timing push right? Some1 correct me if I'm being an idiot cause the game was on at 2 AM over here lol
I really don't think this handful mnm (with stim)->mech has vulnerabilities like the other builds do.
And yeah I was slightly perturbed by wfbrood slapping their logo on a pic from liquipedia.
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Baa?21248 Posts
AFAIK Wfbrood automatically rehosts every single image for their articles, and in the process it just slaps a wfbrood.com logo on them.
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That may not have been the only reason to build the extractor. I thought, at first that the extracter was there to play the role of an ultralisk, and absorb fire. I know that lings are priority targets for the AI, but if there were a few marines in the back, the would have attacked the extractor rather than run forward to fight lings. The difference between those marines being in combat might have caused the push to be succesful. I just have a hard time believing that a progamer would make such a simple mistake.
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its not really a simple mistake though
progamers make a shit load of mistakes all the time
i.e. protoss players (except for bisu and nony) always fuck up their shuttle/reaver micro
they pointlessly lose shuttles and reavers all the time because they suck.
but this gas trick is a trick not too many people know, and since it varies depending on the extractor or refinery, and how fantasy builds the wall, also position, effort wasn't sure
fantasy even didn't know about it i guess, because he built his refinery, which totally defeated the purpose of effort's extractor not allowing the lings in
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On July 19 2010 04:31 Nal_rAwr wrote:
its not really a simple mistake though
progamers make a shit load of mistakes all the time
i.e. protoss players (except for bisu and nony) always fuck up their shuttle/reaver micro
they pointlessly lose shuttles and reavers all the time because they suck.
but this gas trick is a trick not too many people know, and since it varies depending on the extractor or refinery, and how fantasy builds the wall, also position, effort wasn't sure
fantasy even didn't know about it i guess, because he built his refinery, which totally defeated the purpose of effort's extractor not allowing the lings in
There is a difference between the two. While you can "know" how to reaver micro, you also need the skill to make it work. If you click in a wrong place, it can ruin the entier thing. However, the extractor trick only requiers knowledge. It is not as if by clicking on different parts of the gyser it will cause the gap to grow or shrink. Given how much they practice progamer should have all of the knowlege there is in the game of starcraft. And fantasy's refinery may even suport my idea. If fantasy was worried about the extractor drawing fire, by placeing his own he eliminates that threat. Although, it is more likely that he just needed more gas for his mech build.
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+ Show Spoiler +I thought this thread was going to be about his offensive Nydus, lol
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On July 19 2010 05:36 ndralcasid wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I thought this thread was going to be about his offensive Nydus, lol
+ Show Spoiler +Lol the thread started off as Effort's mistake not Effort's best innovation to ZvZ yet xD....
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On July 19 2010 04:31 Nal_rAwr wrote:
progamers make a shit load of mistakes all the time
i.e. protoss players (except for bisu and nony) always fuck up their shuttle/reaver micro
You haven't seen enough Bisu games  .
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EPT
