During today's ACE match between SKTelecom T1 and CJ Entus, Effort brought a drone along with a large amount of zerglings (about three control groups) to break Fantasy's wall. However, the zerg's extractor does not actually create a gap in the wall.
On the other hand, the terran and protoss walls do create this gap:
Effort's mistake did not only result in the loss of a drone, but falsely led him to create zerglings for the wall break. The loss of such a large number of zerglings and larva set back Effort's economy, leading to Fantasy's win.
It should also be noted that when Fantasy built the refinary on the geyser, the wall opened up for zerglings (as can be seen in the second attack).
On July 18 2010 20:06 SaetZero wrote: Umm.... I know your title reads spoiler, but doesn't even seeing the name "Effort's Mistake" kind of spoil it...?
Effort had two games today, besides, a mistake doesn't necessarily imply the outcome of the game.
Ah well Fantasy's gay vulture drop rush --> valk build got figured out. Only a matter of time until this stupid bio -> mech shit does too right? RIIIIIGHT?
Actually I wasn't watching the game too closely, fantasy faked a bio opening then came out with a timing push right? Some1 correct me if I'm being an idiot cause the game was on at 2 AM over here lol
I know for a fact that gas is completely sealed everywhere UNTIL Assimilator/Refinary/Extractor is built on it. Effort was trying to abuse this fact, and there was a way for lings to get through. Unfortunately, good defense from Fantasy, as he saw what was going on.
Someone posted this earlier but I don't know if anyone saw it. Someone should go test this out!
Oh wait nvm, this is a different wall... he should have had the depot on the bottom iirc. So I guess it was true that the extractor did NOTHING. Wow, poor effort.
I don't know why the article writer at wfbrood put their logos on the pictures, but if you follow the link at the end of the article, it eventually traces back to Liquidpedia.
That said, this article is interesting, and the gap is between the right side of the extractor and the left side of the supply depot.
On July 18 2010 23:13 Superiorwolf wrote: Someone posted this earlier but I don't know if anyone saw it. Someone should go test this out!
Oh wait nvm, this is a different wall... he should have had the depot on the bottom iirc. So I guess it was true that the extractor did NOTHING. Wow, poor effort.
Yeah, it seems that the barracks has a much wider space to its left than the depot does.
On July 18 2010 23:55 C[SCL] wrote: Perhaps fantasy knew that building the rax right at that spot could open up a hole, hence the depot above the gas. My two cents.
Building the rax there would also trap marines outside the wall. Especially given that the wall would be tight (barring any extractors), the marines would be trapped outside until the barracks was lifted.
At any rate, fantasy was fooled, and pulled a few scvs specifically to plug that hole. And that was not the reason EffOrt lost that game. Fantasy's vulture micro over EffOrt's lurker thrust was what gave fanta the huge advantage, because EffOrt wasn't able to do enough damage to make up for his dead third.
On July 19 2010 02:43 Mobius wrote: i dont understand numbers.. higher number=more space for units to pass through, lower number=less space for units to pass through or somethin?
For example, Gateway above Forge gives 7 (Gateway lower space) + 8 (Forge upper space) = 15 passageway between them, which is just enough to block a Zergling which is 16 x 16. That's basically the reason why Protoss forge FE works and why we do not place Forges above Gateways (since that would be a gap of 27).
On July 18 2010 23:13 Superiorwolf wrote: Someone posted this earlier but I don't know if anyone saw it. Someone should go test this out!
Oh wait nvm, this is a different wall... he should have had the depot on the bottom iirc. So I guess it was true that the extractor did NOTHING. Wow, poor effort.
Depot has to be touching the top of the barracks to make a ling proof wall.
His barracks is like 1 square too far to the right
On July 18 2010 23:13 Superiorwolf wrote: Someone posted this earlier but I don't know if anyone saw it. Someone should go test this out!
Oh wait nvm, this is a different wall... he should have had the depot on the bottom iirc. So I guess it was true that the extractor did NOTHING. Wow, poor effort.
IIRC it was confirmed in the thread this was posted in that the Barracks is too far to the right, and the wall isn't ling-tight regardless of the extractor.
On July 19 2010 03:01 arb wrote: Depot has to be touching the top of the barracksGeyser to make a ling proof wall.
His barracks is like 1 square too far to the right
There
the barracks has to be touching the top of the geyser yes, but i always thought depots had to be touching some part of the top of the barracks for a ling proof wall?
On July 19 2010 03:01 arb wrote: Depot has to be touching the top of the barracksGeyser to make a ling proof wall.
His barracks is like 1 square too far to the right
There
the barracks has to be touching the top of the geyser yes, but i always thought depots had to be touching some part of the top of the barracks for a ling proof wall?
That too. But in this case the problem was the barracks placement. I mutilated your text, of course the barracks would have to be touching the Geyser.
But yeah, Depot above Barracks is safe, Barracks above Depot isn't.
Anyway, back on topic. Surely Effort's play looked bad, but fantasy had clearly practiced a lot for this specific constellation. Fantasy used a weird fake from Bio to mech to Bio and even inviting Effort to try the ling break.
On July 18 2010 20:47 SubtleArt wrote: Ah well Fantasy's gay vulture drop rush --> valk build got figured out. Only a matter of time until this stupid bio -> mech shit does too right? RIIIIIGHT?
Actually I wasn't watching the game too closely, fantasy faked a bio opening then came out with a timing push right? Some1 correct me if I'm being an idiot cause the game was on at 2 AM over here lol
I really don't think this handful mnm (with stim)->mech has vulnerabilities like the other builds do.
And yeah I was slightly perturbed by wfbrood slapping their logo on a pic from liquipedia.
That may not have been the only reason to build the extractor. I thought, at first that the extracter was there to play the role of an ultralisk, and absorb fire. I know that lings are priority targets for the AI, but if there were a few marines in the back, the would have attacked the extractor rather than run forward to fight lings. The difference between those marines being in combat might have caused the push to be succesful. I just have a hard time believing that a progamer would make such a simple mistake.
progamers make a shit load of mistakes all the time i.e. protoss players (except for bisu and nony) always fuck up their shuttle/reaver micro they pointlessly lose shuttles and reavers all the time because they suck.
but this gas trick is a trick not too many people know, and since it varies depending on the extractor or refinery, and how fantasy builds the wall, also position, effort wasn't sure
fantasy even didn't know about it i guess, because he built his refinery, which totally defeated the purpose of effort's extractor not allowing the lings in
On July 19 2010 04:31 Nal_rAwr wrote: its not really a simple mistake though
progamers make a shit load of mistakes all the time i.e. protoss players (except for bisu and nony) always fuck up their shuttle/reaver micro they pointlessly lose shuttles and reavers all the time because they suck.
but this gas trick is a trick not too many people know, and since it varies depending on the extractor or refinery, and how fantasy builds the wall, also position, effort wasn't sure
fantasy even didn't know about it i guess, because he built his refinery, which totally defeated the purpose of effort's extractor not allowing the lings in
There is a difference between the two. While you can "know" how to reaver micro, you also need the skill to make it work. If you click in a wrong place, it can ruin the entier thing. However, the extractor trick only requiers knowledge. It is not as if by clicking on different parts of the gyser it will cause the gap to grow or shrink. Given how much they practice progamer should have all of the knowlege there is in the game of starcraft. And fantasy's refinery may even suport my idea. If fantasy was worried about the extractor drawing fire, by placeing his own he eliminates that threat. Although, it is more likely that he just needed more gas for his mech build.
On July 19 2010 04:31 Nal_rAwr wrote: progamers make a shit load of mistakes all the time i.e. protoss players (except for bisu and nony) always fuck up their shuttle/reaver micro
AFAIK Wfbrood automatically rehosts every single image for their articles, and in the process it just slaps a wfbrood.com logo on them.
Maybe Liquipedia should have something similar as well? The only problem is that those images aren't owned by Liquipedia per se, but a Liquipedia/Teamliquid user.
On July 19 2010 00:51 tree.hugger wrote: At any rate, fantasy was fooled, and pulled a few scvs specifically to plug that hole. And that was not the reason EffOrt lost that game. Fantasy's vulture micro over EffOrt's lurker thrust was what gave fanta the huge advantage, because EffOrt wasn't able to do enough damage to make up for his dead third.
Oh come on, you can't say that wasn't the reason Effort lost the game. Since when do zergs come back vs terran after failed zergling allins? He also wouldn't have lost his third if he hadn't thrown away multiple control groups of zerglings.
The lurker thing was just free units and Fantasy was like thanks ^^ goliaths > lurkers.
This is the only possible ling proof wall for Terran. A Barracks on top of a Depot isn't Ling proof and as already mentioned the Barracks on that other picture is too far on the right.
Of course with this wall you have the disadvantage with the Comsat in a not so great place.
I think the extractor let the zerglings passed, but Fantasy sent SCVs to block and defended well. I watch the vod, and I can swear I saw a few zerglings go through before the SCVs arrive.
It can be seen that fantasy's wall was no where close to ling proof as it was open from 2 spots (where he put his SCV's and where the medic blocked) so I don't think the article is right in stating that Effort falsely created lings to break the wall, instead he just wasted the drone.
Also the 2nd time around he still got through even with the refinery there proving that fantasy's defenses we're ling tight at all...
Starting from about 05:25, none of the lings actually went through between the extractor and the depot (he only attacked the bottommost depot and the SCV repairing it.
I tested the wall yesterday (though without the VOD, I'm not sure if I recreated it perfectly), and the lings only fit between a refinery / depot, but not geyser / depot and extractor / depot.
I had thought about it last night, and after watching the replay again, I really think Effort could have won the game if he went about his strategy a bit differently. Had he held back his lings and faked a gas steal, he'd have all of his lings versus two smaller waves that were unable to overwhelm Fantasy.
Of course, Effort didn't know that the Extractor still created a ling tight area (excluding the hole near the Rax), so the point is definitely moot. But if you watch the VOD, one of Fantasy's three SCVs is rushing for the gas while the other two are there to block, and is attacking Effort's mutating drone. Immediately after the drone was removed, he started his gas, which allowed Effort to break through that spot rather easily. My newbie level analysis thinks that if he had held his lings back, faked a gas steal forcing Fantasy to take his gas, and then charged in with his stronger force, he definitely could have overwhelmed Fantasy going through the two holes in the wall with superior numbers.
Oh man I never knew about this trick. When I was watching the game I was wondering if he built that extractor because if Fantasy had built his refinery, I was assuming it would create some sort of wall, and turns out I was right! But damn, that was such a huge loss, throwing away so many zerglings I really wanted Effort to win, and I was thinking to myself when Fantasy basically contained him, "how the fuck is he going to break that?"
The funny part is, I don't think ANYONE knew about the specifics of the gaps
1. Effort Obviously, or else he would not have attempted it. Even though, I don't think it would have succeeded anyway because Fantasy's SCVs would've blocked off the lings.
2. Fantasy He tried to stop the drone from getting the gas by getting the gas himself (?????). Also, Fantasy tried to block the lings with the SCVs, which was supposedly unnecessary. Basically, what fantasy did made no sense to me. Later, after Effort cancelled his Extractor, Fantasy immediately took the gas, and it could mean three things (much more likely i and/or ii) i. he thought Refinery would be ling-tight too after seeing how the lings were blocked off ii. he needed gas iii. he did it to lure Effort's lings (which means he knows the difference b/w Refinery and Extractor, and he's a genius)
3. The commentators I don't understand Korean, but from their tone of voice, it seems to me that they thought it was a viable option. Could someone translate that segment?
This really comes as a shock to me because as many people have already stated, being progamers, how could they not know all the relevant facts of the game, or more specifically, the match up? How could you not test out taking the Geyser with a drone with a practice partner before the real game (to both Fantasy and Effort)?
Fantasy: He built his rax rather than the traditional wall for 2 main reasons 1) Easier to rally units out, considering his build with mech. I'm pretty sure a lot of gamers sometimes hate playing with small gaps, but of course you can argue he might as well just destroy a depot later. 2) You cannot send marines in otherwise if you build them with the barracks at bottom.
I really don't think Fantasy knew about the extractor trick attack, so he probably didn't build it that way to prevent it. He pulled scvs to cover the spot is a natural reaction, which is fine.
Him taking gas is probably either 1) prevent gas steal 2) he needed gas 3) a bait for the lings to come in which he can defend easily But usually #3 is a strategy planned before game, and considering this surprise gas attack from effort, #3 is unlikely.
Effort probably only practiced with a regular walling... or perhaps he did it on impulse. If he had practiced vs this walling I doubt he would fail like this.
lol really? effort only built the gas to make it harder for fantasy to place the SCV:s at the gap/repair the depot... you can see that effort immediately attacks the depot with like 8 lings. SCV:s movement fucks up when you click to attack an extractor, while clicking on pure gas moves them there immediately. Just clicking at depot to repair doesn't move them to it cleanly.
That's my theory, your theory doesn't make much sense tbh, he's a top progamer for God's sake.
This might be a good time to point out that there is an error on the zerg picture. Zerg Evolution Chamber has the values 0 4 15 11 , and not 0 4 15 3, as the picture shows. I can verify that evo chamber definitely dosent have size 3 at bottom, as I once made a simcity that failed because of that.
On July 20 2010 13:03 noob4ever wrote: This might be a good time to point out that there is an error on the zerg picture. Zerg Evolution Chamber has the values 0 4 15 11 , and not 0 4 15 3, as the picture shows. I can verify that evo chamber definitely dosent have size 3 at bottom, as I once made a simcity that failed because of that.
This has actually become a really interesting discussion.
Several thoughts: - This was clearly an improvised strategy from EffOrt. He thought fantasy could be beaten in a specific way, and he tried it. To be honest, I don't think that this set EffOrt back a great deal, but it put him behind, that's for sure. It was hardly an all-in, however. - EffOrt's intention was not to gas steal, as he didn't have a good read on fantasy's build, and had no real reason to know that fantasy needed gas desperately and thus wanted to delay it. Furthermore, the presence of the massed lings pretty much proves that EffOrt's intention wasn't to steal the gas. - However, the timing of EffOrt's attack seems almost to be perfectly matched to the timing that fantasy intended to take the gas. I think right after his medic popped, he felt he could be comfortable taking his gas. Similarly, he felt comfortable taking the gas, because he had some reason to believe that the zergling threat was over. But I think he knew that the refinery being placed there would create another hole in the wall. So did EffOrt. He makes beeline for it, the moment fantasy drops the refinery, and he sees it while attacking. - I think both players were confused about the nuance between the refinery and the extractor. EffOrt intended to kill fantasy with it, and fantasy immediately responded by pulling four scvs to block that area of his wall. While they are both progamers, as locodoco points out, this map hasn't been used for months, and the exact building sizes in that specific situation is not something you would necessarily expect everyone to know. - EffOrt's refinery steal had an odd consequence though, as Frezard notes, that it seems to have decreased the area in which fantasy's scv's could repair that supply depot. EffOrt very nearly breaks down that depot before a second scv is able to maneuver into a repairing position. Was that his intention? I doubt it, because he didn't seem to instruct all the zerglings to attack the depot initially. He may have broken through if he had. It looks to me like he simply instructed the lings to attack move past the wall, and they couldn't, so he reacted in the moment and tried to kill the depot.
All-in-all, this has been very fascinating to read. BW never ceases to be fun to analyze.
EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/9/9a/Zerg_buildings_gaps.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/thumb/1/1c/Terran_buildings_gaps.jpg/460px-Terran_buildings_gaps.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/thumb/c/cf/Protoss.jpg/480px-Protoss.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/6631/scscrnshot112309172244.png)
.![[image loading]](http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/332/wall.jpg)
