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On May 04 2010 16:05 KinosJourney2 wrote:
KeSPA did a good job getting eSports where it is today, but their decision making and shit is just awful. Choosing between Blizzard and KeSPA is like choosing between good and evil, im not sure Blizzard has what it takes to make Starcraft 2 into an eSport. Even after seeing them fail miserably with Warcraft 3 (They didn't actually FAIL but it could have been oh so much better) i still believe in them more then KeSPA.
KeSPA is what is killing Starcraft 1 right now, they worry me more then the betting scandal.
Haha, you seriously think Blizzard will do well? Look at WoW arena as an example. They pushed it as much as they pushed it. WoW has 11 million subscribers. It still failed. Viewers of WoW arena are peanuts compared to what BW does. Now, Arena is dying and blizzard's "muscle" is no where to be found in propping it up. Fact is that blizzard has no vested interest in making esports more than just a temporary marketing tool for their games. Thats all they see it as. Once the benefits are gone or reduced to a minimum, they will leave and move on to their next game for sure.
In the end, and this is for Korea only, Kespa has a track record. It is able to deliver. Blizzard has no record to speak of.
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I'm astound at the overall hate and disrespect that lies beneath anti kespa comments towards Korea and Korean esports.
For people again thinking blizzard will make esports happen in several countries, just wake up.
If anything, if you're a true SC fan, and a pro gaming fan, you should bash blizzard down to the ground instead.
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Well can't say I have much love for KeSPA but I think Blizzard demands here seem completely unreasonable (if they're true that is).
Basically the korean scene (OSL, MSL, Proleague etc) has done more than anything organized by Blizzard to promote StarCraft and they've made millions of dollars worth of revenue due to all that free marketing so these demands just seem downright greedy to me.
I think (although it's just speculation) that Blizzard realizes how important the korean scene is for their product and now they want to control it cause they're probably scared to death of the possibility that KeSPA won't switch over to SC2 most likely losing them a ton of revenue.
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I really, really don't like KeSPA, but ont the other way I think Blizzard is really making some crappy demands.
Yes Blizzard is an enterprise and it's goal is to make money, but here they are trying to steal it with asking for royalties on broadcast. Blizzard is only the developper of the game, when you buy it, it's totally normal they get money, but if people, player etc... are making money on the use they made of the game they buy, then the money is theirs.
Just think of it guys, it's like if you buy some music instrument, become a great musician with it and make a lot of money with selling your albums and then, the compagny which had sold you the instrument ask you for money from each CD you sell. That's not fair, the money you get is from what you create with your musician talent, this is why people pay for when they buy your CD. If you just don't accept this, you have to say that every people who make money with things they buy must pay royalties... That's nonsense
So for Starcraft, the money people get by the use of the game, cannot be taken by those who conceived and sell it.
Anyway in this conflit both side seems to me pretty uggly, even I understand that without KeSPA there won't be such a developped starcraft Esport in Korea and in the other way without Blizzard there won't be such wonderfull game, both really have really indecent attitude.
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Its very simple for me:
With buying Starcraft: Broodwar you bought a Forever-Use-Licence with all casting rights. You can not change that contract 15 years after the game was published.
BUT:
Blizzard won't do that mistake again. 15 years ago you couldnt tell the future, but with SCII we will probably buy shorter Licences with no Telecasting-Rights (Probably Internetstreaming will be limited to non commercial use or something). and in 3-Something Years or with the addon the contracts will be changed again, fitting the new age.
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On May 04 2010 16:08 jpak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 16:05 KinosJourney2 wrote:
KeSPA did a good job getting eSports where it is today, but their decision making and shit is just awful. Choosing between Blizzard and KeSPA is like choosing between good and evil, im not sure Blizzard has what it takes to make Starcraft 2 into an eSport. Even after seeing them fail miserably with Warcraft 3 (They didn't actually FAIL but it could have been oh so much better) i still believe in them more then KeSPA.
KeSPA is what is killing Starcraft 1 right now, they worry me more then the betting scandal. No, it's closer to deciding which is the lesser of the two evils.
Hahahaha. 
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On May 04 2010 16:30 KinosJourney2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 16:08 jpak wrote:On May 04 2010 16:05 KinosJourney2 wrote:
KeSPA did a good job getting eSports where it is today, but their decision making and shit is just awful. Choosing between Blizzard and KeSPA is like choosing between good and evil, im not sure Blizzard has what it takes to make Starcraft 2 into an eSport. Even after seeing them fail miserably with Warcraft 3 (They didn't actually FAIL but it could have been oh so much better) i still believe in them more then KeSPA.
KeSPA is what is killing Starcraft 1 right now, they worry me more then the betting scandal. No, it's closer to deciding which is the lesser of the two evils. Hahahaha.
Look in your heart. You know this to be true (Vader). 
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I've said this before and I'll say it again. Why the hell is so many of you have this notion that sc2 can't be supported outside of south korea and with kespa holding it's hand?
You realize Sc was doing things before kespa right?
Sc2 doesn't need Kespa and the reason Blizzard went to them in the first place is because they where already established. I don't trust Kespa to run sc2 properly and it's obvious blizzard doesn't either.
Luckly enough, money> any kind of solidarity of Kespa. Players and companies will go where money is to be made and if you think sc2 isn't going to be a cash cow the world over you may need to see a doctor about this case of sudden blindness.
I trust blizzard more then Kespa on the fact Blizzard hasn't upset me as much.
Free Agency bs, msl power outage, pp incident, Gomtv forced out, and most recently match fixing.
Worst thing blizzard done can it compare to any of that? Honestly, I don't care if you didn't like Wrath or Burning crusade or you think blizzard is evil because they are with activision..has anything they've done compared to things like treating Jaedong like a slave and Mafia style shutout of gom?
Who would you trust?
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It reminds me how in the early 90s there was the new music wave down in Seattle, and how bands started popping out of basements (like players) and started creating extraordinary music which the whole world learned to love and then big bad label companies came wanting to sign them for more albums. So this is like players creating E-sports and then kespa coming to claim rights over that... What happened eventually these big companies destroyed morale of the musicians and the whole thing blew off...
E-sport is too young to be destroyed, kespa. Come on.
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eh, i think both sides are talking big because they don't have any firm legal ground. It's such a murky area, dealing with 3 really confusing things:
intellectual property
international copyright
esports, never really happened before
So they'll probably make a show at taking it to trial, but then back down when they realize how long and expensive that is, and strike a deal that kespa will pay royalties while retaining control over the korean market.
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On May 04 2010 16:45 Parnage wrote:
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Why the hell is so many of you have this notion that sc2 can't be supported outside of south korea and with kespa holding it's hand?
You realize Sc was doing things before kespa right?
Sc2 doesn't need Kespa and the reason Blizzard went to them in the first place is because they where already established. I don't trust Kespa to run sc2 properly and it's obvious blizzard doesn't either.
Luckly enough, money> any kind of solidarity of Kespa. Players and companies will go where money is to be made and if you think sc2 isn't going to be a cash cow the world over you may need to see a doctor about this case of sudden blindness.
I trust blizzard more then Kespa on the fact Blizzard hasn't upset me as much.
Free Agency bs, msl power outage, pp incident, Gomtv forced out, and most recently match fixing.
Worst thing blizzard done can it compare to any of that? Honestly, I don't care if you didn't like Wrath or Burning crusade or you think blizzard is evil because they are with activision..has anything they've done compared to things like treating Jaedong like a slave and Mafia style shutout of gom?
Who would you trust?
I agree, remember this?
(look at 2nd post)
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On May 04 2010 07:42 Railz wrote:
How long before it will be before some moron says, "but Kespa created esports, Blizzard needs them" Kespa didn't create esports, the players did. Playing under harsh conditions with no pay, yet having the Charisma to get the government to back them is what made Kespa.
Blizzard could have ended this a long time ago and never did, all they did prior to SC2 was try and limit how much KeSPA claimed rights over it. Now blizzard is cutting them from the get go. Ok so it's no problem if kespa quits? KESPA IS NOT NEEDED?
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KeSPA just needs to wait. BW is not dead in SK and wont be in a long time, if ever. SC2 is the one having to prove something. So far it looks like a good game for playing, but an awful one for watching. It become a 1a game (no 2a3a... ) with two giant balls of units shooting at each other. Just boring. In best case scenario, SC2 ends up like WC3, with some tournaments now and then, but nothing serious like progaming.
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On May 04 2010 16:45 Parnage wrote:
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Why the hell is so many of you have this notion that sc2 can't be supported outside of south korea and with kespa holding it's hand?
You realize Sc was doing things before kespa right?
Sc2 doesn't need Kespa and the reason Blizzard went to them in the first place is because they where already established. I don't trust Kespa to run sc2 properly and it's obvious blizzard doesn't either.
Luckly enough, money> any kind of solidarity of Kespa. Players and companies will go where money is to be made and if you think sc2 isn't going to be a cash cow the world over you may need to see a doctor about this case of sudden blindness.
I trust blizzard more then Kespa on the fact Blizzard hasn't upset me as much.
Free Agency bs, msl power outage, pp incident, Gomtv forced out, and most recently match fixing.
Worst thing blizzard done can it compare to any of that? Honestly, I don't care if you didn't like Wrath or Burning crusade or you think blizzard is evil because they are with activision..has anything they've done compared to things like treating Jaedong like a slave and Mafia style shutout of gom?
Who would you trust?
I have that notion because I don't see good alternatives. Blizzard's #1 goal is money, and money NOW. That means that Blizzard will milk the Starcraft Esports of every dollar it can get, then do something else. Just look at what they did to WoW and you'll see.
Kespa was founded in 1999 to facilitate the growth of Esports, and despite all the bumps on the road, overall they did one heck of a job. Can you name any company or country where an organization will be committed to the growth of E-sports like Kespa was? Please prove me wrong, because we need alternatives.
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On May 04 2010 16:57 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 07:42 Railz wrote:
How long before it will be before some moron says, "but Kespa created esports, Blizzard needs them" Kespa didn't create esports, the players did. Playing under harsh conditions with no pay, yet having the Charisma to get the government to back them is what made Kespa.
Blizzard could have ended this a long time ago and never did, all they did prior to SC2 was try and limit how much KeSPA claimed rights over it. Now blizzard is cutting them from the get go. Ok so it's no problem if kespa quits? KESPA IS NOT NEEDED?
EXACTLY!!!
We don't need them, they get way to much credit for esports IMO! The FANS make esports what it is, the quality of the game and the quality of the players too. When your government decides to build a bridge do they deserve the credit? They paid YOUR money to SOMEONE ELSE to build it.
Kespa makes money by broadcasting GAMERS they control through licenses playing a game SOMEONE ELSE created. The fans love and support make this all possible. Not kespa!
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On May 04 2010 17:00 nimoraca wrote:KeSPA just needs to wait. BW is not dead in SK and wont be in a long time, if ever. SC2 is the one having to prove something. So far it looks like a good game for playing, but an awful one for watching. It become a 1a game (no 2a3a... ) with two giant balls of units shooting at each other. Just boring. In best case scenario, SC2 ends up like WC3, with some tournaments now and then, but nothing serious like progaming.
No way man, SC2 already killed wc3 and bw's non-korean scene.. theres already money tournaments just in the beta. Anyone who does not think that SC 2 is gonna be huge is living under a rock ;(
oh yeah...and sc2 is really fun too 8) and.. its kind of nice not needing 400 apm to be pro
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What amazes me is how most of you don't even see a problem in single company creating the games and monopolizing the gaming pro scene. That's such a clear conflict of interests. What they really want is not to take any risks in investing money in pro scene, but still control the scene if someone else creates it. There are tones of companies much larger than Blizz/Activision that already have a lot invested in SCBW. Don't expect to capture the market without them Blizz.
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On May 04 2010 17:02 jpak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 16:45 Parnage wrote:
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Why the hell is so many of you have this notion that sc2 can't be supported outside of south korea and with kespa holding it's hand?
You realize Sc was doing things before kespa right?
Sc2 doesn't need Kespa and the reason Blizzard went to them in the first place is because they where already established. I don't trust Kespa to run sc2 properly and it's obvious blizzard doesn't either.
Luckly enough, money> any kind of solidarity of Kespa. Players and companies will go where money is to be made and if you think sc2 isn't going to be a cash cow the world over you may need to see a doctor about this case of sudden blindness.
I trust blizzard more then Kespa on the fact Blizzard hasn't upset me as much.
Free Agency bs, msl power outage, pp incident, Gomtv forced out, and most recently match fixing.
Worst thing blizzard done can it compare to any of that? Honestly, I don't care if you didn't like Wrath or Burning crusade or you think blizzard is evil because they are with activision..has anything they've done compared to things like treating Jaedong like a slave and Mafia style shutout of gom?
Who would you trust? I have that notion because I don't see good alternatives. Blizzard's #1 goal is money, and money NOW. That means that Blizzard will milk the Starcraft Esports of every dollar it can get, then do something else. Just look at what they did to WoW and you'll see. Kespa was founded in 1999 to facilitate the growth of Esports, and despite all the bumps on the road, overall they did one heck of a job. Can you name any company or country where an organization will be committed to the growth of E-sports like Kespa was? Please prove me wrong, because we need alternatives.
Alternative check out my previous posts in this thread there are links to a bunch of other promising stuff!
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interesting how people presume blizzard is a company thats goal is to be nice to people and make them happy, while actualy being part of a major corporation that is traded at the stock exchange. (which by default excludes moraly controlled actions but leaves profit oriented decision making only)
true, vivendi holds the majority of the stock and morhaine seems to have a decent releationship towards the activision blizzard ceo's but still there is shareholder interest.
i am not saying that kespa are the good guys. you would have to whack yourself on the head (with something hard and heavy) upteen times to forget how they have shown their face in the past.
i also do not believe that kespa "created" esports. to me it seems like a cultural phenomena in south korea (people are just crazy about computer/video games) that kespa is taking advantage of or in other words, they just filled the gap (by all means one has to admit). and they sure wont want to give a us based corporation that much influence over on aspect of korean culture, which i can more than understand.
so i am with the korean people here. (kespa *** off) hopefully it turns out well for them after the greedy struggle is resolved.
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On May 04 2010 17:05 drewbie.root wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 17:00 nimoraca wrote:KeSPA just needs to wait. BW is not dead in SK and wont be in a long time, if ever. SC2 is the one having to prove something. So far it looks like a good game for playing, but an awful one for watching. It become a 1a game (no 2a3a... ) with two giant balls of units shooting at each other. Just boring. In best case scenario, SC2 ends up like WC3, with some tournaments now and then, but nothing serious like progaming. No way man, SC2 already killed wc3 and bw's non-korean scene.. theres already money tournaments just in the beta. Anyone who does not think that SC 2 is gonna be huge is living under a rock ;( oh yeah...and sc2 is really fun too 8) and.. its kind of nice not needing 400 apm to be pro
Its not nice for the people being here on TL.net and watching SCBW for 10 years. And, on the side note, WC3 and SCBW non korean scenes were gone long before SC2 Beta came out. SCBW and WC3 also had money tournamnets at the beginning. I played a few myself. And it still died like any other million selling game outside of Korea. You just got it wrong. I'm not saying the game wont be popular (hell Farmville is popular). I'm just saying it wont become a professional playing sport like SCBW in Korea is, and by professional I mean where people can actually earn their living by just playing the game. Don't tell me WC3 and SCBW players outside of Korea could ever do that.
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EPT
