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I love it when people say that Blizzard doesn't need KeSPA... if Blizz truly doesn't need KeSPA then why would they be negociating with them in the first place?
One big thing about esports is that you need an audience, and the only place where you'll find a real one for SC is S.Korea. Outside the only followers you'll get is mostly people that are actually playing or have already played the game. There's already an infrastructure in SK, and Blizz won't be able to pierce through the market if they don't go through the platform that is already there which is KeSPA, mainly because the organization controls esports in all of its most important aspects : Teams, TV channels and sponsors.
SC2 is already having issues in SK because of the ''adult only'' rating it might get. Do you think that an AO rated game will be broadcast 24/7 in all sorts of programs? There's no way an american based company will be able to lobby SC2 out of this without having at least a Korean partner taking interest in that business... so what about the major video game channels MBC and OGN? Sorry bud, they're part of KeSPA. So what about a major S.Korean corporation that could also sponsor our events like SK or Samsung?
You guys see where Blizzard is going without KeSPA?
Kespa is controlled by representatives of the largest e-sports sponsors, yes, but at the same time it is NOT the sponsors themselves. And it hardly holds a monopoly on possible e-sports sponsors in Korea. If Kespa goes the whole "solidarity" route, then Blizzard would indeed have a much harder time finding a partner...but the companies involved with Kespa are by no means monolithic, united, or agreeable with each other. And they're not the only companies in Korea...
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On May 04 2010 12:56 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 12:47 Jugan wrote:On May 04 2010 12:32 mrdx wrote:On May 04 2010 12:04 ShadeR wrote:On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote:
I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports. Agreed, the perfection that is BW was an accident. I'm sceptical as to SC2 sucess as a perfectly balanced game like BW Don't even start this discussion. BW's success was an accident or not didn't matter, Blizzard created it. Even when an idiot invented something great he still deserves everything from his invention. A lot of people invented things or created theories and don't get a single ounce of credit for it. Yeah, that's true. But those people aren't corporations with deep pockets. =0 In the US though it was only recently that inventors and researchers actually get any credit, never mind getting paid. You'd think that if you helped research technology that saves millions of lives medically, you'd be one of the richest people in the country. Not so true as it turns out. Ok, aside from that little diversion, Blizzard has deep pockets. I'm pretty sure they will get what they deserve and more.
Completely false statement, people have been getting both credit and income for their inventions for hundreds of year, and companies that research and discover new cures are some of the richest people in the world.
proof of my first statement here
pfizer a drug company, Pfizer has four divisions: Human Health ($44.28B in 2005 sales), Consumer Healthcare ($3.87B in 2005 sales), Animal Health ($2.2B in 2005 sales), and Corporate Groups (which includes legal, finance, and HR).On June 26, 2006, Pfizer announced that it would sell its Consumer Healthcare unit (manufacturer of Listerine, Nicorette, Visine, Sudafed and Neosporin) to Johnson & Johnson for $16.6 billion.
source
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On May 04 2010 13:08 Reborn8u wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 12:56 shinosai wrote:On May 04 2010 12:47 Jugan wrote:On May 04 2010 12:32 mrdx wrote:On May 04 2010 12:04 ShadeR wrote:On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote:
I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports. Agreed, the perfection that is BW was an accident. I'm sceptical as to SC2 sucess as a perfectly balanced game like BW Don't even start this discussion. BW's success was an accident or not didn't matter, Blizzard created it. Even when an idiot invented something great he still deserves everything from his invention. A lot of people invented things or created theories and don't get a single ounce of credit for it. Yeah, that's true. But those people aren't corporations with deep pockets. =0 In the US though it was only recently that inventors and researchers actually get any credit, never mind getting paid. You'd think that if you helped research technology that saves millions of lives medically, you'd be one of the richest people in the country. Not so true as it turns out. Ok, aside from that little diversion, Blizzard has deep pockets. I'm pretty sure they will get what they deserve and more. Completely false statement, people have been getting both credit and income for their inventions for hundreds of year, and companies that research and discover new cures are some of the richest people in the world. proof of my first statement herepfizer a drug company, Pfizer has four divisions: Human Health ($44.28B in 2005 sales), Consumer Healthcare ($3.87B in 2005 sales), Animal Health ($2.2B in 2005 sales), and Corporate Groups (which includes legal, finance, and HR).On June 26, 2006, Pfizer announced that it would sell its Consumer Healthcare unit (manufacturer of Listerine, Nicorette, Visine, Sudafed and Neosporin) to Johnson & Johnson for $16.6 billion. source
Except that nothing you just said has anything to do with individuals and what they get out of it. Those are all corporations...
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On May 04 2010 10:24 Senx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 10:16 XsebT wrote:On May 04 2010 10:00 Senx wrote:On May 04 2010 09:49 Day[9] wrote:
rot in hell KeSPA. Seriously, I hope KeSPA tanks with the release of SC2. I absolutely despise KeSPA. So you seriously believe a e-sport scene will exist in korea without kespa ( ie the ruleset, teams, players, sponsors, tv channels) ? It makes me sad when people just dismiss kespa as a organization e-sport in SKorea doesn't actually need, beacuse they do..despite their wrong decisions throughout the years. Don't come here and tell me that Blizzard will magicly manage to create a separate SC2 scene to coexist with the current SC:BW scene in SKorea. It's either up to Kespa or we'll have a very small and lackluster SC2 scene or in worst case, no real sc2 pro scene at all. Blizzard won't magically create a separate SC2 scene, we will. Power to the players. Kespa isn't the reason behind the success of SC in Korea - that honor goes to the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services. Kespa represents the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services..
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On May 04 2010 13:20 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 13:08 Reborn8u wrote:On May 04 2010 12:56 shinosai wrote:On May 04 2010 12:47 Jugan wrote:On May 04 2010 12:32 mrdx wrote:On May 04 2010 12:04 ShadeR wrote:On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote:
I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports. Agreed, the perfection that is BW was an accident. I'm sceptical as to SC2 sucess as a perfectly balanced game like BW Don't even start this discussion. BW's success was an accident or not didn't matter, Blizzard created it. Even when an idiot invented something great he still deserves everything from his invention. A lot of people invented things or created theories and don't get a single ounce of credit for it. Yeah, that's true. But those people aren't corporations with deep pockets. =0 In the US though it was only recently that inventors and researchers actually get any credit, never mind getting paid. You'd think that if you helped research technology that saves millions of lives medically, you'd be one of the richest people in the country. Not so true as it turns out. Ok, aside from that little diversion, Blizzard has deep pockets. I'm pretty sure they will get what they deserve and more. Completely false statement, people have been getting both credit and income for their inventions for hundreds of year, and companies that research and discover new cures are some of the richest people in the world. proof of my first statement herepfizer a drug company, Pfizer has four divisions: Human Health ($44.28B in 2005 sales), Consumer Healthcare ($3.87B in 2005 sales), Animal Health ($2.2B in 2005 sales), and Corporate Groups (which includes legal, finance, and HR).On June 26, 2006, Pfizer announced that it would sell its Consumer Healthcare unit (manufacturer of Listerine, Nicorette, Visine, Sudafed and Neosporin) to Johnson & Johnson for $16.6 billion. source Except that nothing you just said has anything to do with individuals and what they get out of it. Those are all corporations...
Yes it does, if I invent say a teleporter, I can patent it, and for 20 years I have a total monopoly over that invention. Read this carefully
If you would have checked the first link in my other post you would have realized your wrong. It applies to the individual inventor.
Congratulations, shinosai you've made 2 completely false posts in a row!
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Worst case scenario:
1. Blizzard pulls all the plugs from Kespa
2. Blizzard releases SC2 with the B.net 2.0 and no LAN.
3. SC2 fails to gain enough base support to grow to be successful.
4. SC2 shrivels up and dies after a couple years.
5. SC sites, such as TL.net, begin shutting down.
6. SC and SC2 become part of the history of the great E-sports experiment.
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On May 04 2010 13:30 jpak wrote:
Worst case scenario:
1. Blizzard pulls all the plugs from Kespa
2. Blizzard releases SC2 with the B.net 2.0 and no LAN.
3. SC2 fails to gain enough base support to grow to be successful.
4. SC2 shrivels up and dies after a couple years.
5. SC sites, such as TL.net, begin shutting down.
6. SC and SC2 become part of the history of the great E-sports experiment.
Hopefully, this won't happen. I hope SC2 is successful as an E-sports, with or without Kespa.
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May be just me, but I smell some sense of entitlement coming from kespa. Are they entitled to have starcraft, just the way they want it too? They're not, and it doesn't matter what the conditions are.
Economics 101. If blizzard is being unreasonable, then no deal has to be made. Blizzard wants a deal, kespa wants a deal, because both have to gain if a deal is to be made. Blizzard expects to earn something, kespa will earn something. In no way is someone being "greedy" when they ask for too much, or being "cheap" when they bid too low. It's just the nature of economics, we all want to get the best of our deals be it selling or buying. An equilibrium will be hit once a deal is made, and if they can't reach an equilibrium, then at the worst, no party can be worse off than when they started (assuming no stealing, killing, etc. has been made)
That being said, I side with blizzard just because kespa sux cox.
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Considering the corruption of KESPA and their related teams and star players I have no wish to see them in charge of anything.
I have lost all respect for Korean e-sports as it is currently organized.
Blizzard has a record of doing everything they can to help e-sports around the globe in regards to their games. That they want licensing fees is not greedy, it is a valid and fair business model.
On the one hand you have an organization with a record of mishandling and bullying, being greedy and out of control. On the other hand you have a company that goes out of its way to promote events and work with sponsers to create great events.
Guess which one I side with and believe in more.
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Honestly, all this negativity towards Kespa here is beginning to make me sick. Yea, you're mad that they killed GOM. They had the power outage incident and the "ppp" incident. But let me remind you: THIS SPORT IS STILL RELATIVELY YOUNG!!! E-sports only began in Korea in 1998 - that's only 12 years people. Sports evolve and be refined over decades. In American Football, for example, the challenge system only came into being in 1999. The NFL just voted in March for new overtime rules. In fact, I was actually madder while watching "The Tuck Rule" game than the power outage crap. Are we not allowed to learn from mistakes people? And especially after the power outage incident, Kespa will be very keen not to make mistakes.
I'm not going to comment on copyright issues, cause I know squat. I'm just suggesting that you get over any blind hate you have for Kespa for killing GOM before posting further.
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if what kespa is saying is true, blizzard should at least try to make some reasonable compromises. by totally refusing to negotiate without giving up some demands seems kinda childish to me. they both need each other.
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On May 04 2010 13:05 Captain Peabody wrote:If Kespa goes the whole "solidarity" route, then Blizzard would indeed have a much harder time finding a partner...but the companies involved with Kespa are by no means monolithic, united, or agreeable with each other. And they're not the only companies in Korea...
According to the translation made in the OP, the corporations represented by KeSPA are standing united in this business... well that doesn't mean that a few of them could split up after a certain amount of time, but I really doubt it since it would literally break up the interests that they are currently gaining from BW.
From a business standpoint, I think that KeSPA's best move is to wait. Brood War isn't dead yet so you don't need to fully jump on the bandwagon of SC2 right after its release which means you can take the time to evaluate the market. At the same time, Blizzard will also realize how important KeSPA is for their implementation in S.Korea and this can only increase KeSPA's bargaining power since right now all the power belongs to Blizzard thanks to their smart strategy of making the SC2 client having to go through B.Net to be able to do anything.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 04 2010 12:20 MusicSC wrote:
KeSPA has basically no leverage from what it seems. It seems like it's going to be KeSPA getting completely screwed and being shut out because Blizzard is trying to set a legal precedent about the intellectual rights of the developer. It's either that or KeSPA gives in to the demands and becomes substantially less influential in the gaming community. Either way KeSPA seems to be at a sizable disadvantage when it comes to negotiations.
Kespa as already used it power to make Starcraft 2 Beta an "Adults Only" game. They also have control over the media, which they can use to censor starcraft 2. If that happens, Starcraft 2 might never catch on as a popular game in Korea.
Honestly, I think Blizzard will work out a compromise with Kespa. It's in both's side's interests for that to happen. With Kespa's support, Starcraft 2 will get the biggest exposure in the media. If Blizzard doesn't work out a deal, Starcraft 2 sales in Korea will drop significantly.
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And people have this notion that esports will be fine without Kespa, that we can organize and host tournaments ourselves. But think about it. The only reason Starcraft has captured our minds and hearts all these years is because of the Korean scene. It's because of the Korean scene that TSL ever came into being. I highly doubt, as much as you'd like to deny it, that SC2 will capture the world as an Esports game without the support of Kespa. Only Kespa, with the high quality games it can offer from high-level gamers its teams train, can SC2 begin to replace SC1.
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Yurebis your missing one important detail, kespa stands to loose a lot and will be much worse off than they started if they cant use sc2 and continue in esports. Kespa needs permission to use sc2 in their broadcasts or they no longer have a product. I doubt people are going to keep the same passion for bw after sc2's release. Look at the current tl poll! How many people who have beta are still playing tons of bw? But i do agree about your stance on them coming to a deal not necessarily being pure greed. Just economics. In this case however, blizzard has the ability to deny kespa their main product. Kespa can deny blizzard some advertisement. Thats about it.
Remember Blizzards side!
Also I don't understand why everyone is so convinced that esports can't exist without kespa. If there is a void in any market place with a lot of money to be made, that void will be filled, FAST!
MLG already has the sc2 beta ladder at gamebattles. And if you think MLG can't be the same or better than kespa read this!
They may become the US's esports center for SC2!
Even artosis had positive things to say about them "This is a very good thing for e-sports, MLG is a great organization, and any tournaments they run for sc2 are sure to be done very well..." source
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On May 04 2010 12:47 Jugan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 12:32 mrdx wrote:On May 04 2010 12:04 ShadeR wrote:On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote:
I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports. Agreed, the perfection that is BW was an accident. I'm sceptical as to SC2 sucess as a perfectly balanced game like BW Don't even start this discussion. BW's success was an accident or not didn't matter, Blizzard created it. Even when an idiot invented something great he still deserves everything from his invention. A lot of people invented things or created theories and don't get a single ounce of credit for it.
Not sure what your point is. This is 2010, not 1850. As a profit business Blizzard can't just stand there getting nothing from KeSPA while their games are showed on 2 TV channels 24/7.
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On May 04 2010 07:44 SichuanPanda wrote:
Seems to me that Blizzard wants KeSPA to stop broadcasting Brood War to coincide with StarCraft 2 Release....
if thats true then maybe blizzard is scared that broodwar community will bash on the sc2 community for being a less skill-requiring game. which is exactly what happened in smash melee/brawl. competitive melee basically killed brawl because melee was a much better game, now melee has a bigger showing in tournaments despite brawl being in mlg and other professional gaming scenes
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I believe there needs to be a culture change in the United States before Esports can truly become great. By now, in Korea, progamer is a job. It's accepted as a job, and others will treat you as if you have a job. The culture in the United States still revolves very much around the console (PS3, Xbox, Wii). Furthermore, gaming is still not treated as a serious profession.
To me, MLG is even more obscure than WWE. Even if MLG becomes a successful engine for esports, I doubt that SC2 will be supported for long. That's just my hunch.
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What worries me most is the fate of these progamers we came to know and love. What will happen to Flash and Jaedong? Will they be jobless? Will they fade into obscurity forever? The ones who stand to lose the most is not Kespa or Blizzard, but the progamers whose livelihoods depend on this. If only for them, Blizzard, please at least renegotiate with Kespa. They're the ones who raised YOUR game to the heights it is today, and they're the reason why SC2 is so hyped as it is right now.
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EPT
