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Without Kespa and a great deal of warmhearted fans , without the early staff's effort in blz, where are you? blz!!
Today blz is still the best computer game company in the world for a large of guys, but if the gradually established sentiment and the sc tours gone, you blz are nothing and spoiler.
Because we fans are closely related with sc tours and stars and Starleague and Kespa.It seemed Kespa has done more for fans than you blz. It is Kespa that let game become the sport and created game stars who we favorite.
Forget the redundant benifit, your work and works are for fans and for the world entertainment, because you are the blz ,still the best!
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Yes! This is a great opportunity for GOM to make another investment into eSports! Go GOM! :D
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as long as korean bw progaming scene is unaffected, i don't really give a shit. but if the korean progaming scene is disbanded, i am going to be very very very angry
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Yes I agree that Blizzard has the right to SC/SC2 and also has the right to enforce their claim on it.
HOWEVER, just because you have the right to do so, doesn't necessarily mean it is 'right' to use that right.
(get it? ;p)
It may be important to identify whether... KeSpa is making shit loads of money with BW tourneys/leagues and Bliz is claiming a fair share of the profit, OR KeSPa isn't making much money and Bliz is demanding unreasonable percentage of the profit, which would hurt/take down KeSPa.
Without that knowledge, it is pointless to argue whether we should support Bliz or not.
If it's the former, I'm sure KESpa will come around and accept the deal. It's better to have a piece than nothing.
If it's the latter.. well hopefully we'll find out the truth and give our support to KeSPa.
and do those who hate KeSPA because they only broadcast their games in Korean and you don't understand the language...
don't be stupid.. I mean, like some other guy posted, would you watch a random b.net player?
You only watch those leagues because they have turned SC into an art form - like a brilliantly played chess match.
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Also, the question we sohuld ask is..
whether the 'foreigners' (non-koreans in this context) would be able to better Koreans in SC2.
Keep in mind that the popularity of SC is most likely to carry on to SC2, which means pro-SC2 leagues will form and there will be Pro-gamers practicing the game 24/7.
Or.. would other countries, such as US and what not, take such course and form a league of their own, giving birth to their own pro-SC2 gamers that play the game 24/7... ;p
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On April 28 2010 04:45 Oddysay wrote:
blizzard are right because they got the copyright for the game but think 2 sec ok ?
in the law they are also right but that dont mean what they are doing is right for the fans and the players , and of course the current pro gamer .
they are the first game company who would ask for that much royalty , tournament fee , in fact they want to control everything and get any numbers of money they want for anything .
they ask for :
Blizzard, in the 7th article, states that conversations within the game, to even user's characters profiles are the properties of Blizzard and without the consent of Blizzard, no one is allowed to create any secondary creation using them
The 7th article 1st term states that, excluding Blizzard's contest/tournament rules, or other fan policies, users are not allowed to use the game or the service to create any sort of product.
Blizzard also used the 14th article 4th term to state their opinion on publishing rights that they were discussing with KeSPA. This term states that Blizzard owns the right to publish and use anything related to SC2 and only them .
Other than these terms, Blizzard also demands that users need to abandon any authorship of anything regarding the contents. If these terms are applied, then blizzard's permission will be needed to hold a contest/tournament or air the matches on TV regarding Starcraft 2
Blizzard has been using Starcraft 2 to state that whenever a gaming tournament is held, or whenever matches are aired on TV, not only do users need to gain permission from blizzard, but also need to pay royalties to Blizzard.
KeSPA needs to agree to Blizzard's term regarding Starcraft in addition to Starcraft 2
these term mean alot more that you think
if u were kespa or anyone else , you accept something like that ? hell no .
well if you keep support blizzard now you know what they ask .
if you support e-sport , you better support kespa because they are realy the less evil .
blizzard are only greedy bastard who want money , and plz dont say they care about the fans , they care about the money...
and they dont need more money if you think about wow and the sales they will get for sc2
( 3 games ) .
but no , they want more
all those articles are for sc2 right? not for sc1. I doubt sc1 contains any article that covers the scope of esports broadcasting
as for sc2, it is currently rated R in korea, so it will be very difficult for blizzard to replicate sc1's success
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On April 28 2010 14:47 hp.Shell wrote:
Yes! This is a great opportunity for GOM to make another investment into eSports! Go GOM! :D
not if sc2 is rated 18+
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I'm with Blizzard on this. It's their creation, their rights and it's time for someone to show KeSPA where they really belong and what their using isn't theirs.
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two greedy corporations duking it out. But its lose-lose to us starcraft fans.
Im sorry, but us consumers who love korean e-sports gets nothing from blizzard from paying royalty to them.
I really have to stick to korean corporations this time. I hope they will somehow make it through.
I never had, and i will never will spend a single peny on any blizzard products forever.
sure, they only lost one out of a bajillion customers buying their products, but i think they have gone too far this time.
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On April 27 2010 17:56 nimoraca wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2010 17:30 igotmyown wrote:On April 27 2010 16:48 maybenexttime wrote:On April 27 2010 16:20 xBillehx wrote:On April 27 2010 13:29 MuffinDude wrote:
Dude, blizzard just want profits while kespa at least has a slight intention of keeping progaming alive. Kespa is clearly the lesser of two evil here. I just don't like how blizzard is asking kespa for pretty much more money when kespa isn't making too much themselves either.
Blizzard made scbw, but it was the fans that made scbw like it is now, not blizzard. lol. Ok, Blizzard asking for more money? Blizzard hasn't gotten anything from Starcraft 2 and that's the one thing they were asking for. Royalties. Look it up. KeSPA isn't making too much themselves? They basically never lose money. They put no investment into the development of the game and broadcast it on TV collecting a ton of money from it. It was an investment, and the investment went gold. Any other group could have taken the risk and forked up some investment money to grow progaming in Korea. In fact, any other group can now. Starcraft 2 already has the hype it needs to surpass BW. KeSPA had nothing to do with that. Since KeSPA acted like a spoiled child, Blizzard will just find a new group who wants to make money by investing in their product and broadcasting. I'll agree with your last point. It's the fans that made scbw like it is now. The demand to watch these progamers is why it was kept alive. The fans also couldnt give two shits if it was KeSPA, SM Entertainment, or Blizzard running the tournaments, as long as they got some good games to watch. But besides that, Blizzard never wanted control over Proleagues of SC2 in Korea. They were completely willing to let KeSPA do their thing and even tried for three years to negotiate their rightfully entitled royalties, but KeSPA didn't wanna pay to broadcast someone else's new product. They basically wanted to make more money off of a new product, for free. I have no doubt other groups will pop up to help. Hell, even in the interview itself, Blizzard is going to find a new partner to run it, not themselves. KeSPA lost out on this one and I look forward to the future of Starcraft 2 because, sad as it is, broodwar is dieing. They wanted to be allowed to ask ANY amount of money from KeSPA (or any tournament organizer for that matter) at any time afaik. That's the most ridiculous condition I've ever heard of. Who would ever go for that? And if you look at what Blizzard are currently doing, you can notice they don't care about esports at all. It's just empty words, that's all. I mean no LAN, region lock, tournament licenses, wanting to able able to ask for any sum of money. Not to mention their perception of esport is pretty skewed to start with. Morhaime said to them it's a way to increase the enjoyment of players. That's very close minded and short sighted. A vast portion of esports fans (BW) are not BW players themselves. Not to mention claiming they'll release all their "pro league" replays, which is utterly ignorant. Why would any respectable progamer actually play there? There were several incidents related to replay leaking in both BW and WC3 scenes. Why would a progamer want most of his practice games be readily available to his competitors? T____T I'm siding with KeSPA here. They are the lesser evil. Blizzard wants to run the SC2 esports scene as some authoritarian state and they've shown they're incompetent when it comes to such relatively small events like BlizzCon. You guys have it backwards. Blizzard isn't removing LAN, locking regions, and such to control the SC scene. What happens is Kespa's making however much millions or billions or whatever on their product. Blizzard says, you know, since we made it, you're making ridiculous profit, don't you think you owe us something or have some say? Kespa gives them the finger and stonewalls them for the last few years. They claim that broadcasting isn't violating blizzard's intellectual property and therefore they don't owe anything. Blizzard: hmmm, we could either keep these bs loopholes in our new game and allow them exploit them or close them overly thoroughly. They were perfectly fine with anti-hack and chaoslauncher even though they probably violate the EULA; they're willing to overlook just about everything as long as it's clear that they have the right to do so. They've never fined people. I doubt Blizzard would put in any of these restrictions if Kespa agreed to cooperate. They don't care at all how Kespa runs their leagues, they probably just want Kespa to get permission from them, probably for some nominal sum or small percentage. If there's a way to enable LAN and maintain intellectual property, I'm sure they'd be willing to do it. They would probably overlook it if someone finds a way to create a 3rd party LAN system, and only want the illegal part as IP leverage against kespa clones. Do you really know what nominal sum of money is Blizz asking for. I bet you don't. The point is KeSPA doesn't need SC2. There are a lot of good RTS games out there if they ever want to replace BW, which I seriously doubt they do. Just because the name of the game is Starcraft X doesn't automatically makes it anywhere close to being good as SCBW. Imagine NBA replacing basketball with something else.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Right. Blizzard is the only one that makes these kind of games, they made SC, they made War3 which whatever you think of it, was a competitive success, and they are putting a good deal of effort into SC2. No one else does this. KESPA tried hard to push other games to make profits off of, like Sudden Attack, but they've all been comparative failures to the beast that is SC BW, a game that is only beautifully competitive because Blizzard designed it and patched it intelligently, without which no amount of community map making could have done anything. They put a lot of effort and skill into creating competitive games and they obviously want some of the action instead of watching other people profit off that without giving them anything.
If it were only the players who made SC BW amazing then the players could make any game amazing, and we wouldn't need Blizzard at all, we could just run off and have an amazing competitive game of Dawn of War 2 or whatever. Oh wait, we can't, because those games suck balls for strategic competitive play and spectating enjoyment.
Good luck finding a replacement. If Blizzard was so easily replaced KEPSA would have had smash hits with other games years ago. KESPA is easily replaced- anyone can do what they do, its nothing to be commended for whatsoever- Blizzard is not easily replaced.
Why doesn't the Korean community build and design a nice competitive RTS for us to play and watch? Oh right, they don't have the skills.
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On April 28 2010 17:10 SturmAddict wrote:
two greedy corporations duking it out. But its lose-lose to us starcraft fans.
Im sorry, but us consumers who love korean e-sports gets nothing from blizzard from paying royalty to them.
I really have to stick to korean corporations this time. I hope they will somehow make it through.
I never had, and i will never will spend a single peny on any blizzard products forever.
sure, they only lost one out of a bajillion customers buying their products, but i think they have gone too far this time.
Korean esports only exists because of Blizzard. And why would they give a shit about people like you if you never bought any of their products?
"Sure, I pirate all your games. But you're the greedy bastards wanting me to PAY for things! How dare you! I will never spend money on your games even though I already don't!"
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who said im pirating? ever heard renting/borrowing?
As a starcraft e-sports fan, im not really interested in who made the game, im more interested in how the game is pan out; and the only place where this is successfully shown , is in korea, organized by korean corporations.
If starcraft was played by only backho and his ilk, it would have never been as successful as it is today. The players are very important at defining the game, much less the game itself.
You even see grandma's and mummy's watching people watching games in korea. Do you think blizzard can ever do that outside korea? no way hozey. As i said, they saying they are going to build e-sports are mostly just to make us fans warm and fuzzy inside.
At the same time they removed competitive LAN play , made an "awesome" ladder system; made some feature's server sided which will induce lag in players in places with sub-par internet connection (which is 75% of the world?),
I just cant get myself to support this kind of company, really. Not to mention they want to go worldwide when they really arent. Players from indonesia ,bangladesh, india will have to call cross borders just to attempt to get a fix on their games.
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United States22883 Posts
On April 28 2010 17:10 SturmAddict wrote:
I never had, and i will never will spend a single peny on any blizzard products forever.
This is the core of the problem.
Ladies and Gentlemen, blame people like SturmAddict for Blizzard trying to maximize their profits overseas.
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United States22883 Posts
On April 28 2010 17:36 SturmAddict wrote:
who said im pirating? ever heard renting/borrowing?
Neither of which are allowed. You, and likely millions of other SC fans who watch SC but do not play or own it (which, from what I've heard, may be the majority of Korean fans, especially the fangirls) are deriving benefit and entertainment from Blizzard's product, without them receiving any compensation.
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On April 28 2010 17:36 SturmAddict wrote:
who said im pirating? ever heard renting/borrowing?
Remind me again why they, or anyone really, should give a shit about what people like you think?
On April 28 2010 17:36 SturmAddict wrote:
As a starcraft e-sports fan, im not really interested in who made the game, im more interested in how the game is pan out; and the only place where this is successfully shown , is in korea, organized by korean corporations.
If starcraft was played by only backho and his ilk, it would have never been as successful as it is today. The players are very important at defining the game, much less the game itself.
Really? Where are all the other non-Blizzard games with their competitive play and their famous players? I thought the game doesn't matter, its the community and the players? Why does this only happen to Blizzards RTS?
On April 28 2010 17:36 SturmAddict wrote:
I just cant get myself to support this kind of company, really. Not to mention they want to go worldwide when they really arent. Players from indonesia ,bangladesh, india will have to call cross borders just to attempt to get a fix on their games.
Uh, I'm currently in India for the past year and videogames are such a tiny market here, I don't really blame them.
On April 28 2010 17:36 SturmAddict wrote:
At the same time they removed competitive LAN play , made an "awesome" ladder system; made some feature's server sided which will induce lag in players in places with sub-par internet connection
lolol. "Damn this company for doing this to a game I was going to acquire without paying for! I demand value for my $0 and anything less is unacceptable!"
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On April 28 2010 16:43 RA wrote:
I'm with Blizzard on this. It's their creation, their rights and it's time for someone to show KeSPA where they really belong and what their using isn't theirs.
thank god !!!
finally someone who truly understands it : )
Blizz > kespa
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On April 28 2010 17:25 FieryBalrog wrote:
Right. Blizzard is the only one that makes these kind of games, they made SC, they made War3 which whatever you think of it, was a competitive success, and they are putting a good deal of effort into SC2. No one else does this. KESPA tried hard to push other games to make profits off of, like Sudden Attack, but they've all been comparative failures to the beast that is SC BW, a game that is only beautifully competitive because Blizzard designed it and patched it intelligently, without which no amount of community map making could have done anything.
I don't agree that the sole credit of BW's balance goes to Blizzard. If anything it goes to the mapmakers. If you look at blizzard's maps and strategy guide (holy shit lol), that is what competitive SC would be like if we didn't have the community. You can argue that of course nobody knew how to play when the game first came out but blizzard HASN'T UPDATED ANY MAPS AT ALL. even BW 1.16.1 would be shit on terrible maps. conversely we can still have some form of semi-competitive 1.00 with well-designed maps. The game is "beautifully competitive" not so much because it's well patched (although that's very helpful), but rather that we have professional organizations and mapmakers that can mitigate imbalances.
As said before numerous times in this thread, blizzard hasn't done shit for esports. If blizzard released SC2, ran a very good server, constantly updated maps and patches, didn't take out lan, etc. then kespa should pay for using their game. But if what blizzard has done with competitive BW is any example, they don't deserve it.
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On April 28 2010 18:12 writer22816 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 17:25 FieryBalrog wrote:
Right. Blizzard is the only one that makes these kind of games, they made SC, they made War3 which whatever you think of it, was a competitive success, and they are putting a good deal of effort into SC2. No one else does this. KESPA tried hard to push other games to make profits off of, like Sudden Attack, but they've all been comparative failures to the beast that is SC BW, a game that is only beautifully competitive because Blizzard designed it and patched it intelligently, without which no amount of community map making could have done anything. I don't agree that the sole credit of BW's balance goes to Blizzard. If anything it goes to the mapmakers.
"Sole credit" goes to no one. The map makers did not do that much. For a while they essentially just tweaked off Lost Temple, which was *gasp* a Blizzard map.
However, you guys vastly underestimate the credit that goes to Blizzard for creating such an elegantly designed game that allowed so much evolution, strategy and competition. If the map makers could balance a game, if the community could make any game competitive, then they could do that for any RTS.
But they can't. They don't. And they won't.
Its only the underlying genius of SC BW- the units, the races, the combat engine- that allowed anything to happen at all. The community has provided a huge added value, has done a ton of analysis and balancing and thinking and strategizing, but if they could do that for any game then well we wouldn't be here on a site dedicated to a 12 year old strategy game developed by one company.
Obviously Blizzard did not know the detailed strategies and how the game would be played or exactly what maps were optimal. I mean, if they did, thats actually a problem since it means the game is incredibly shallow. No developer SHOULD be able to figure out the depths of his own game. Its the community's responsibility to develop new strategies, new ideas and play the game.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 28 2010 18:12 writer22816 wrote:
I don't agree that the sole credit of BW's balance goes to Blizzard. If anything it goes to the mapmakers. If you look at blizzard's maps and strategy guide (holy shit lol), that is what competitive SC would be like if we didn't have the community. You can argue that of course nobody knew how to play when the game first came out but blizzard HASN'T UPDATED ANY MAPS AT ALL. even BW 1.16.1 would be shit on terrible maps. conversely we can still have some form of semi-competitive 1.00 with well-designed maps. The game is "beautifully competitive" not so much because it's well patched (although that's very helpful), but rather that we have professional organizations and mapmakers that can mitigate imbalances.
Look at the SC patch notes. The Blizzard map pool was receiving updates until mid-2006. They also made attempts to add more tournament-usable maps until about 2005 IIRC (some of them got used in events) and held events like the Mystery Map Invitational (which, interestingly has quite a few TL names--Rekrul, Testie, and Day[9] played in it, and Mora and Bill307 designed the maps) to try and get some good maps to play on, but it's very obvious that whatever in-house mapmakers Blizzard could field pale in comparison to what an army of map-makers throughout the fanbase can do.
As far as getting the rights to put maps like Python or more recent Korean tournament maps into the "official" map pool, they'd likely want to acquire the rights first (for legal peace of mind), and that could potentially involve a legal nightmare that nobody wants to deal with (with regard to who 'owns' the content of the map). At that point, the potential trouble that could get bogged down in was greater than the potential good it could do, in any sense. Certainly, Blizzard went far beyond any developer in the world would possibly do.
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its so funny.....
u guys trying so hard to get a nice little conversation in this thread with useless arguments which are of no relevance...
blizz created this game, without them we wouldnt even be able to play bw, it's as simple as that
kespa has no right to do whatever they like, blizz is fighting back and they can only win
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EPT
