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On December 31 2009 23:13 Pokeball wrote:You're right Flash plays like any other terran (other terrans don't quite understand the matchups like he does though) but that's like every progamer in this day and age - they play to win games. Savior would be a good example seeing he's in your sig and no, having "the CJ face" doesn't somehow make him any different from any other progamer. They all do what they are used to so I don't know why you're simply targeting Flash for being like a robot while saying Jaedong and Savior are so awesome. People attack you because you give the most pathetic reasons for hating Flash. He's really no different than the majority of progamers and let's face it, the old days of Zeus, Chalrenge and FBH are pretty much over. FBH isn't even really dancing anymore or acting like an asshole. Show nested quote +On December 31 2009 23:09 J1.au wrote:
I can't help but notice your signature: "Savior and Jaedong, how come zerg progamers are so awesome?". Why do you like Jaedong while at the same time dismiss Flash as cold, mechanical and uncharismatic. I like both players, however your criticism could apply to them both equally. Basically this.
Idk about that first part, I think there are definitely terrans that understand tvp better than he does.
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Liking Jaedong makes you a hypocrite, biggest mechanics over invention player there is.
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I'm pretty positive flash never took into consideration your feelings before he became the kind of player he is now.
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On December 31 2009 22:55 Abyzou wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Starcraft has become more and more frustrating, it has gotten to the point where I really need to write about it. I’m sure I’ll get tons of angry responses. Starcraft is not as awesome as it used to be. I know people are going to whine I’m wearing thick nostalgia goggles, it’s only natural. Why is Starcraft in a decline? Because the game has become cold and mechanical, and the true idols with heart have faded out. Flash is absolutely dominating at the moment and it’s really frustrating, both as a Starcraft enthusiast and as a fan of many players that are having a rough time atm. I really dislike Flash, because he’s so uncharismatic. And he’s not fun to watch. What’s exciting about Starcraft is awesome, daring plays, back and forth action, all that juicy stuff. With Flash though we get nothing, and then "forth" action as he rolls out of his base and kills the other player off for being too greedy in getting bases. Flash also does a few other things like cheesing, well that’s all fine and dandy but it doesn’t really compensate. Flash is, at the end of the day, a macrobot with perfect mechanics, and he doesn’t have heart like the star players of old did. He’s the best but that doesn’t really matter when it’s not entertaining. I’m sure there are a whole fuckton of zealous fanboys here on TL who cream their pants when they watch him, but I think that to the majority of the audience, things like that don’t matter, what matters is entertaining games, stunning stratagems, matches that surprise you and keep you on the edge of your seat, etc. Instead, players like Flash dominate the players who’re actually entertaining. This is what the metagame has led up to, and that points us to a single conclusion: Starcraft rewards the least entertaining type of strategy the most of all. SDM covered it quite well in his sole article on Gom: http://www.gomtv.net/mumbojumbo/column/1We get these kids that are stunningly good, but the appeal is limited. And Starcraft as an e-sports is in decline. Entertaining plays take a back seat because of the corporate pressure on the teams to deliver results. Win win win. So many times, TL users fail to grasp these things because all they think is "But he’s winning, that’s all that matters." So typical. I remember when Tasteless cast GOM and he and SDM were discussing Flash, the guy was as usual doing his defensive opener and you could just tell by the way they spoke that they were trying not to say he was boring. I think they ended up saying something along the lines of "he’s consistent". It’s not all bad. But I think that Starcraft, at its core, is ephemeral, with a ticking clock that’s running out. It’s not as solid as a ‘real’ sport, because the game’s gotten (or is in the process of getting) figured out. There might be a few more "revolutions" to come but they’ll be minor. Maybe Dark Archons will become a staple of PvZ. Maybe Ghosts will gain a role in TvP. Maybe optical flare and restoration will find a place in certain builds. Or maybe Zerg will simply find new ways of raping even harder. The map rotation has done its part but it can only go so far in keeping it fresh. Right now I have my hopes set for SC2. Blizzard promised that the game won’t rely on map design to stay balanced, at least not a first. If they can create a game that stays fresh for more than 10 years, I’ll be glad. The two expansion packs should help, bringing more units, map features, etc into the mix. Or maybe they screw up and we’ll get CS: Source all over again.
Oh look it's you.
The guy that constantly has to tell everyone how much he hates Flash and how bad he is and how boring he is and blah blah blah.
You also consistently disappear after making these comments because you know people will rip into your thoughtless argument with little effort.
You are a troll or very very short sighted.
I also find it funny you consider Jaedong so awesome when his play style is ... BELIEVE IT OR NOT...very mechanical. The fact that you can't realize this means you are clueless.
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flash also has arguably the greatest defense early game tvp that ive ever seen. Some of his defense of goon rushes are absolutely insane. Flash vs Anytime on Baekmagojji or whatever its called was fucking nuts.
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On January 01 2010 04:43 Tru_m4n wrote:
However, to me he's the master of turtling, and therefore the most boring player I've ever known.
I agree that Flash is a master of turtling, in the sense that his defense is extremely good. This is one of the reasons I like watching him play, because defending well is hard to do. Flash puts a lot of care into his simcity, his turret placement, and his defense timings, while at the same time ensuring his opponent doesn't play too greedily. This is so hard to do that it impresses me whenever I see it.
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On January 01 2010 05:13 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2009 23:13 Pokeball wrote:You're right Flash plays like any other terran (other terrans don't quite understand the matchups like he does though) but that's like every progamer in this day and age - they play to win games. Savior would be a good example seeing he's in your sig and no, having "the CJ face" doesn't somehow make him any different from any other progamer. They all do what they are used to so I don't know why you're simply targeting Flash for being like a robot while saying Jaedong and Savior are so awesome. People attack you because you give the most pathetic reasons for hating Flash. He's really no different than the majority of progamers and let's face it, the old days of Zeus, Chalrenge and FBH are pretty much over. FBH isn't even really dancing anymore or acting like an asshole. On December 31 2009 23:09 J1.au wrote:
I can't help but notice your signature: "Savior and Jaedong, how come zerg progamers are so awesome?". Why do you like Jaedong while at the same time dismiss Flash as cold, mechanical and uncharismatic. I like both players, however your criticism could apply to them both equally. Basically this. Idk about that first part, I think there are definitely terrans that understand tvp better than he does.
Flash essentially invented modern TvP back 2 years ago. If by "understand TvP" you actually mean "is doing better in TvP," well that's another story.
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On January 01 2010 06:27 blueblimp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2010 04:43 Tru_m4n wrote:
However, to me he's the master of turtling, and therefore the most boring player I've ever known. I agree that Flash is a master of turtling, in the sense that his defense is extremely good. This is one of the reasons I like watching him play, because defending well is hard to do. Flash puts a lot of care into his simcity, his turret placement, and his defense timings, while at the same time ensuring his opponent doesn't play too greedily. This is so hard to do that it impresses me whenever I see it.
Sure, he is more or less unbreakable, and has amazing sense for the flow of the game, so he can practically force the opponent to walk into his traps and then smash them when the time is right. All I can say is that I do not enjoy watching this kind of play, and thus Flash is probably the player I dislike most.
Then again, he "invented" this uber-defensive playing style, and other players haven't learned how to handle it - if it's even possible. His strategy is simply incredibly strong and reliable. No one can take that away from Flash.
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On January 01 2010 03:09 Chill wrote:
I actually think starcraft fans are getting more retarded at a rate faster than the game is being solved. That's the problem. Dope shit happens every day, but if it's not something ridiculous obvious like in 2005 then they don't see it.
This exactly. I am not a very good Starcraft player, never really have been. But every now and then when I watch Day[9]'s analysis of progames, I realize, from a more advanced perspective, players are innovating all the time. It's more like subtle strategical genius rather than flashy micro. I suppose if you develop an eye for it, then your opinion will change; I know mine did.
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On January 01 2010 05:13 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2009 23:13 Pokeball wrote:You're right Flash plays like any other terran (other terrans don't quite understand the matchups like he does though) but that's like every progamer in this day and age - they play to win games. Savior would be a good example seeing he's in your sig and no, having "the CJ face" doesn't somehow make him any different from any other progamer. They all do what they are used to so I don't know why you're simply targeting Flash for being like a robot while saying Jaedong and Savior are so awesome. People attack you because you give the most pathetic reasons for hating Flash. He's really no different than the majority of progamers and let's face it, the old days of Zeus, Chalrenge and FBH are pretty much over. FBH isn't even really dancing anymore or acting like an asshole. On December 31 2009 23:09 J1.au wrote:
I can't help but notice your signature: "Savior and Jaedong, how come zerg progamers are so awesome?". Why do you like Jaedong while at the same time dismiss Flash as cold, mechanical and uncharismatic. I like both players, however your criticism could apply to them both equally. Basically this. Idk about that first part, I think there are definitely terrans that understand tvp better than he does.
Flash was basically TvP and the only two people that may be playing TvP better than him in this day and age would be Fantasy and Really. He's dropping games against the dragons because they work extremely hard to produce builds that catch him offguard. Its pretty obvious if you watch the games and he does mention it in his MSL interview that they do rather strange things against him (Best using high templars against Flash while not normally using them against other terrans).
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i politely disagree with everything you said
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I understood 2 things from your post:
- "I don't understand this game and only get amazed by seeing those funny zergish dogs attacking so fast and winning games"
- "You TeamLiquid won't agree with this because StarCraft community consists 100% of Flash fanboys"
Honestly, i think that you are totally trolling this but GJ with doing such a large post to prevent banning - b/c now you have shown arguments (which are soooo wrong...) and you are "just stating your opinion"
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I definately agree watching large macro games like 95% of todays games are, isnt as fun as watching the more micro oriented games of old.
IDEA: What if there was a limit on how many unit producing structures could be made? Of course itd have to be balanced. But it might be cool and diffirent for a tourny or something.
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On January 01 2010 04:43 Tru_m4n wrote:
While Flash is without doubt a great player, I don't really see what you guys find to be interesting with him. He basically never makes a mistake, instead he waits for his opponent to make one, and then strike with full force. However, to me he's the master of turtling, and therefore the most boring player I've ever known. I don't possess a great knowledge of this game, so flame if you want. I just can't understand how he can be seen as more entertaining than for example Bisu. It's like cheering for Germany when it comes to football. Entire team defends for the entire game, only to score a goal on a corner kick and eventually win. Flash is exactly the same.
I must admit though, that I really enjoyed seeing Flash roll over Jaedong on HBR, perhaps there is still hope for a more offensive Flash after all.
You haven't watched Flash's recent games if you think that he is really turtlish. Although that is true in the past, I can't see how you would say he is turtling when his tvz play has been very aggressive. Much of his games recently are like the Flash vs Jaedong games you watched
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i don't understand how idiots like yourself can make the statement that "starcraft is on the decline" with no proof, evidence, etc. Is this how you "feel"? Do your feelings equate to fact?
I'll tell you straight up that I went to Jaedong vs Flash at Yonsgsan at 430 pm and waited 2 hours in line and still didn't get in. There was so much pushing and shoving, Yongsan mall representatives were screaming at us, the line was forced to relocate outside in the freakin cold... and yet, even with all that wait I can \tell you truthfully that at least 200 people did NOT get in and had to wait outside in line to watch the game on a TV screen. I was one of those people and eventually gave up, went home and watched it on youtube. Though anecdotal, I will forward this piece of evidence that the game is not in decline, which is better than your total lack of evidence.
I also don't understand how you assert that the player's "appeal" is limited. How do you measure "appeal"?
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As someone who really doesn't have much appreciation for sports sometimes, let me just give you a piece of advice.
EVERYTHING in sports is mechanical. It doesn't matter how strategically you play the game, or no matter how well you click, it doesn't matter if your mechanics are not down in ANY sport.
In every sport, basketball, soccer, tennis, football, you need an abnormal amount of physical conditioning and mechanical training to be on par with every other guy on the field. I play Tennis, and that game is so physically and mechanically demanding that it's not even funny. Not applying the right angle to stroke, pressure, weight, and spin, will have your ball flying out of the court like nothing.
So, I'm not surprised that a game like Starcraft was perfected so well that your mechanics have to be down if you want ANY chance of beating the other player. It ALL comes down to mechanics, no matter what perspective you look at it.
If you don't like it, don't play sports. If you have a rank (which I don't) to prove that you have had the mechanics and can speak from experience, great. I will respect your opinion, and I DO respect your opinion.
I just think you're flat out wrong.
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Cheese is gay. Macro Bots are boring.
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at least starcraft 2 is on the way.
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all the 3 s-class players are macrobots
terran just ends up being the turtle/slow push race
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This thread sure went as expected.
Can I have a good nuke mods? I love Boxer way too much to say no.
Also, in case I didn't mention it? Flash is cancer and TL is full of frothing fanboys who eat that shit up. Oh and people who like 'loli', aka cartoon child pornography, and think it should be legalized. Totally cool dudes, see the attached image for my reaction.
It's true Best's loss prompted me to write this - I couldn't sleep because it was nagging me, so I had to post it. I've felt this way for a fucking long ass time though. You're definitely correct in that JD is just as 'bad' as Flash is, however, he is at least somewhat charismatic, he has a much better understanding of how to communicate with fans and just plain being an ambassador of SC, just like Boxer was/is. That's why I like him. He has heart. And fuckin' sick dance moves.
Also lol'd at the PM I got from someone, I feel so offended that someone dares message me and call me a retard.
Happy new years, you delightful queers. I've had some good fucking food and wine. <:
Adios.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://upload.snelhest.org/images/1001011260509133752.jpg)
