Starcraft has become more and more frustrating, it has gotten to the point where I really need to write about it. I’m sure I’ll get tons of angry responses.
Starcraft is not as awesome as it used to be. I know people are going to whine I’m wearing thick nostalgia goggles, it’s only natural. Why is Starcraft in a decline? Because the game has become cold and mechanical, and the true idols with heart have faded out.
Flash is absolutely dominating at the moment and it’s really frustrating, both as a Starcraft enthusiast and as a fan of many players that are having a rough time atm.
I really dislike Flash, because he’s so uncharismatic. And he’s not fun to watch. What’s exciting about Starcraft is awesome, daring plays, back and forth action, all that juicy stuff. With Flash though we get nothing, and then "forth" action as he rolls out of his base and kills the other player off for being too greedy in getting bases. Flash also does a few other things like cheesing, well that’s all fine and dandy but it doesn’t really compensate. Flash is, at the end of the day, a macrobot with perfect mechanics, and he doesn’t have heart like the star players of old did. He’s the best but that doesn’t really matter when it’s not entertaining. I’m sure there are a whole fuckton of zealous fanboys here on TL who cream their pants when they watch him, but I think that to the majority of the audience, things like that don’t matter, what matters is entertaining games, stunning stratagems, matches that surprise you and keep you on the edge of your seat, etc. Instead, players like Flash dominate the players who’re actually entertaining. This is what the metagame has led up to, and that points us to a single conclusion: Starcraft rewards the least entertaining type of strategy the most of all.
We get these kids that are stunningly good, but the appeal is limited. And Starcraft as an e-sports is in decline. Entertaining plays take a back seat because of the corporate pressure on the teams to deliver results. Win win win. So many times, TL users fail to grasp these things because all they think is "But he’s winning, that’s all that matters." So typical.
I remember when Tasteless cast GOM and he and SDM were discussing Flash, the guy was as usual doing his defensive opener and you could just tell by the way they spoke that they were trying not to say he was boring. I think they ended up saying something along the lines of "he’s consistent".
It’s not all bad. But I think that Starcraft, at its core, is ephemeral, with a ticking clock that’s running out. It’s not as solid as a ‘real’ sport, because the game’s gotten (or is in the process of getting) figured out. There might be a few more "revolutions" to come but they’ll be minor. Maybe Dark Archons will become a staple of PvZ. Maybe Ghosts will gain a role in TvP. Maybe optical flare and restoration will find a place in certain builds. Or maybe Zerg will simply find new ways of raping even harder. The map rotation has done its part but it can only go so far in keeping it fresh.
Right now I have my hopes set for SC2. Blizzard promised that the game won’t rely on map design to stay balanced, at least not a first. If they can create a game that stays fresh for more than 10 years, I’ll be glad. The two expansion packs should help, bringing more units, map features, etc into the mix. Or maybe they screw up and we’ll get CS: Source all over again.
I will just respond to your first statement '' The game has become cold an mechanical and the true idols have faded out ''
As a matter of fact the game is very old now and it evolved incredibly much. It's just impossible to play a style that boxer or even older gamers used to. It may be nice to watch but the competition got so fierce that you cant play '' what meets the eye '' anymore. Back then when a gamer like Boxer had a huge edge over everyone else he could do fancy stuff nowadays the top pro gamers are so close together there is simply no room for any fancy builds over those who most likely bring you the win.
The thing is: There are always changes in the way the game is played but as the game gets understood better and better over the many years these changes are very very slight and appear very very seldom..
It's just that this game is understood as perfect as one can understand it. I'd say its like soccer or chess. The main things wont change anymore. You gotta see it like that:
In soccer or chess its basicaly the same, too: 11 men in a certain order on the pitch. There are not any new or great inovations, either.. Same with chess..
Yes.. Starcraft Broodwar is ( unfortunately !? ) evolved that much..
I can't help but notice your signature: "Savior and Jaedong, how come zerg progamers are so awesome?". Why do you like Jaedong while at the same time dismiss Flash as cold, mechanical and uncharismatic. I like both players, however your criticism could apply to them both equally.
There is still innovation if you know where to look. Just because people have optimised the basics doesn't change the wealth of strategic decisions under the surface. It's very easy for a bad player to look at a game and think "well, he's making the same general units as in every other PvT therefore it's all the same" but the more you understand the game, the more you can appreciate its depth. I recommend you watch some Day9 daily, he's excellent at making the complexity of the game accessable.
You're right Flash plays like any other terran (other terrans don't quite understand the matchups like he does though) but that's like every progamer in this day and age - they play to win games. Savior would be a good example seeing he's in your sig and no, having "the CJ face" doesn't somehow make him any different from any other progamer. They all do what they are used to so I don't know why you're simply targeting Flash for being like a robot while saying Jaedong and Savior are so awesome.
People attack you because you give the most pathetic reasons for hating Flash. He's really no different than the majority of progamers and let's face it, the old days of Zeus, Chalrenge and FBH are pretty much over. FBH isn't even really dancing anymore or acting like an asshole.
On December 31 2009 23:09 J1.au wrote: I can't help but notice your signature: "Savior and Jaedong, how come zerg progamers are so awesome?". Why do you like Jaedong while at the same time dismiss Flash as cold, mechanical and uncharismatic. I like both players, however your criticism could apply to them both equally.
I think people have 'figured out' football & basketball, but those sports continue to entertain and, to some extent, evolve. I am not sure if the 'mechanical', software interface of SCi ultimately limits play that much more than, say, the two sports listed above. Evolution is linked to environment, so if the environment is right, I think it is possible that players with more interesting, exciting styles will emerge .
SCi may not be the future of esports, but esports are going to happen, and SCi will always be remembered as one of the games that birthed a new era of sports.
I don't think you will find a lot of people agreeing with you. It seems that you don't hate starcraft but you hate Flash. There is a huge difference and if you check the recent games, there have been entertaining ones for sure. For instance, check out the Cheese thread by Pholon. Heck, why do you think every PL thread has a "recommended" games section?
this game has always been and will always be really awesome u dont like this game anymore because its boring to look at then i say u dont really understand the game play with a heart? the reason ppl playing "cool" and doesnt play "cool" anymore according to ur bs is because ppl like flash has figured out this game so far much better than those old school players with hearts (lol) these progamers are just so fucking good at this game that their strats and adaptments causes both players to make almost 0 mistakes causing little blood but if u like cool playstyle with nice effects and deaths with ppl who doesnt understand the game then change to another game like age of empires or something flash is by far the most entertaining player for me to watch because his play is so brilliant in so many ways
u should start following the foreign scene instead because there u have tons of interesting games with back and forth action with ppl that has no clue about how the game really works
Because the game has become cold and mechanical, and the true idols with heart have faded out.
The game may have become more mechanical than it previously was, but I find in no way that its become cold and that all the true idols have faded. Sure I was a fan of the oldies, but saying
What’s exciting about Starcraft is awesome, daring plays, back and forth action, all that juicy stuff. With Flash though we get nothing, and then "forth" action as he rolls out of his base and kills the other player off for being too greedy in getting bases. Flash also does a few other things like cheesing, well that’s all fine and dandy but it doesn’t really compensate.
just isn't a good argument. Flash lost a TvZ quite recently and it was a really exciting game because Flash was good enough that despite a huge blunder he almost managed a successful comeback. However with most matches the players are so EQUAL in skill that any mistake is punished. The old games seemed so creative because one player was sooo much better than the other that he could do whatever he wanted and still pull off a win, its like saying Starcraft is boring because A rankers play vs A rankers rather than watching a B+ player do retarded shit and beat some D player.
It’s not as solid as a ‘real’ sport, because the game’s gotten (or is in the process of getting) figured out.
This is where I completely lose you, that's exactly what makes it as solid as a real sport. Soccer, Baseball or any other Sport has been completely mapped out strategically and it really only relies on players varying mechanics to provide different games. Even Chess is still popular despite computers being better than humans now.
Overall I think you're really wearing the nostalgia goggles like you said,and aren't seeing the new entertainment value that superior mechanics provide rather than bad strategies combined with a total mechanical imbalance between opponents to provide entertaining games.
So you say you cared about the old idols, yet you chastize Flash for winning with safe, "mechanical" play?
Nada was nothing but pure mechanical play. Oov invented boring, safe standard, Savior did the same for zerg. Almost all the old guard were the old guard because they began the development of "mechanical," play that more modern gamers are better at.
On December 31 2009 23:16 Schnake wrote: I don't think you will find a lot of people agreeing with you. It seems that you don't hate starcraft but you hate Flash. There is a huge difference and if you check the recent games, there have been entertaining ones for sure. For instance, check out the Cheese thread by Pholon. Heck, why do you think every PL thread has a "recommended" games section?
Since when was Flash the first Starcraft player to go on a monster streak with a certain strategy?
Back in 2003 JoYo was rolling Protoss players left and right with his innovative new aggressive Terran play.
At his ZvZ peak, Jaedong was winning over 80% of the time.
Bisu went 3-0 against Savior--a Zerg at the time who was considered unstoppable--with the same build each time.
Each of these players revolutionized the game. The JoYo rush is still a strong alternative to FE play, thanks to Jaedong ZvZ is no longer rock-paper-scissors and has been removed of any room for error, and the Bisu build changed the ways in which sair/DT were used in SC. Now that Flash has found a way to wipe the floor with pretty much every Z player in the game, you're getting upset and calling SC a dead game?
Please.
Oh, about him lacking personality and variation? He stopped playing his ultra-defensive TvP once Protoss players started figuring him out, and now opts for more aggressive openings. If you're dissatisfied with modern Flash TvZ, try waiting it out; once Zergs figure out a way to exploit this it'll be over. I for one think it's pretty awesome that Flash one day said "You know what? Fuck them" and decided to stop letting Mutalisks contain him to his base, but you're entitled to your opinion as well.
While Starcraft has evolved to the point where great macro is pretty much a requirement to play at the top level, I cannot help but feel that the difference between the S-class and A-class still lies in the micro aspect of the game. Sure, positioning also does matter, but if you don't play your units just right, you're in for a ride, because the other guy will do it.
Sure, things like Kingdom's comeback after his nexus got sniped, or Tempest's hero dragoon are very entertaining to watch, it's just that having huge 200/200 armies battle it out is as entertaining, just in a different way.
I don't mean to offend you, but maybe you lack the depth to really appriciate what the players of today are actually doing.
I've been following the pro-scene ever since I first heard of this BoxeR dude who was apparently Terran and basically rolled over everyone in his way with his creative and cheesy play. I think I actually started as Terran in Broodwar just because of him. I enjoy watching Starcraft more today than I did in those days. Everything is so perfected, and the evolution in this game has gone so freaking far that it really takes a whole lot from a progamer these days, not only a creative mind, but just like flash, perfect mechanics and execution.
When I say you lack depth, I mean you may lack the in-depth game knowledge to really appriciate what you're seeing. Players who really don't understand the game completly usually likes cheesy and creative play because it seems so much more fasicnating and awesome when players pull that off, it's also a lot easier to understand what made the player win in a situation like that. I on the other hand, get fascinated by games like these:
To one who just follow Starcraft as a hobby and doesn't really play it much might think of this game as a really boring and one-sided game. In my personal opinion, this is one of the most beautifully executed TvZs in modern BW. Everything has just gotten really tougher, there's little or no margin for mistakes anymore, which is why I actually like the evolution in Brood War. Today, the superior player wins, not because he pulls of something cheesy, but simply because hes so much better in every aspect of the game. Sure, there's still cheese going on, which is a good thing, but in the end, the most skilled player pulls through.
I'm as amazed when I watch Flash play as I was when I watched Boxer, they're two players with completly different styles yet I appriciate them equally much. So yeah, it might take a little more in-game knowledge to really find Starcraft fun to watch today, but that's generally the direction that everything has gone in. Phil made a reference to Chess and Soccer, just think about it, 50 years ago Soccer was nowhere near what it is now. The players are so much physically and techincally stronger, they'd humiliate any "good" team from 50 years ago if, theoritically speaking, they were to face eachother when they were both in their prime.
I used to really not like Flash for similar reasons, because he played a safe game instead of the aggressive gameplay of the players I originally enjoyed like July and Jaedong. But Flash absolutely plays for the advantage, and when he's not being overworked, he looks amazing doing it. There are a few players in proleague that don't produce good games, but Flash is not one of them.
It's true there's a limited number of 'real' innovations in the game, but that's the purpose of the metagame - there are builds that will fall out of style, only to be "rediscovered" in the wake of other changes. It's been over a decade now, and the metagame has continued to change and adapt every time something new has come up. There's no crippling imbalance in the pro scene right now, and the only thing that even comes close to it is reciprocated (PvZ "imba" and TvP "imba").
I also notice you have a strong anti-zerg slant by the tone of your posting. The improvement of Zerg mechanics is in large part a side-effect of players realizing that they could profitably train in the mirror matchup and having the improved unit control split out to other races. Terrans are undergoing something similar right now, but more related to the fluidity of TvT, and Protoss is resurging after the strong anti vZ imbalance that was present recently. The "six dragons", Movie, Pure and Violet all look strong right now, with a few others not too far behind.
To me, right now the pro-scene has its problems, but the average game quality is as at least high as it's ever been, preferences in matchups ignored. Even the players you call "bad", the ones on the tier of CuteAngel, Horang2 and (recently) Yarnc still manage to produce entertaining games, and players like HyuN are capable of breaking out and taking games from the "cream of the crop". The only true duds are players like Canata, who seek out long games and do nothing interesting with them. I think you're overly worked up about a game that continues to produce entertaining spectator games almost years after its release, and will continue to do so for the forseeable future.
to me what you're saying is pretty much like: i hate chess now, i miss the days when people would sacrifice their queens for a rook or smth, kasparov never does that he's boring.... i enjoy the game because someone like flash has to take into account a million factors that boxer or the other old-schoolers never dreamed of to win a game, and thus is much better at it. i agree with morrow the only way someone could love a game and not enjoy it's evolution of gameplay is if he doesn't really understand it
I don't agree with you. I understand your point of view, but where i disagree most is the hope for starcraft2 saving e-sports for some reason.
That is exactly the reason why e-sport, aside from korea with starcraft, will ever be anything more than just a gimmic. At some point, you have to take it seriously. There simply is nothing in this world that comes close to the basis we have with korean starcraft. "Hate" it all you want but no other game, be it past or present has ever been able to carry such a heavy fundament. You may dislike it because it is old and players operate in tiny narrow windows, that is ok, but people like you look for the unexplored and new and that is the reason why e-sport all over the world is kiddy shit in the first place!
For me players like flash, bisu and jaedong are geniuses in their own fields and it is remarkable how some of these players are able to hold up the flag after years of massive competition. We are in the age of titans and i'm glad we were able to even reach it. Because every day is proof that e-sport can exist and evolve trough so many times and reigns.
I don't even care what they do with starcraft2...seriously. If it wasnt for the koreans and broodwar, sc2 would be just another rts...
I can tell you don't really understand starcraft very well yet. I know because I used to think the same things you just posted. But I thought them back when Oov dominated. I did not like him for being cold, mechanical, blablabla.. basically the same stuff you just said about flash. I was even saying the same things about entertaining and creative players. Hopefully you'll learn in time. The day flash becomes 'weak' you'll see what I mean.
I never understood how some people always ragged on Flash for being a boring, mechanical macrobot while praising some veteran players for being interesting and innovating when Flash is one of the most innovative players today. You don't have to be completely off-beat like Upmagic, Zero, Calm, or Horang2 to be innovative. Flash is one of the people that lead the trends of the game, and you can't be a trend leader if you aren't innovative.
the game is in the process of getting figured out?
lol, same as any other game, only in Starcraft you can grasp the evolution as a casual fan unlike other sports as football, where the evolution is more gradual and thus hidden. I prefer watching Starcraft over any other sport other than tennis maybe.
To me the games are still back and forth, still exciting and as the level of play goes up the wtf-factor increases as well. For example when Stats took out a burrowed Luker with Archon splash damage today. it's been done before, but to me it's still awesome to pull this off in a game where so much is on the line.
Flash might not be the most interesting player, but he has entertained his fans for a very long time. Think about his early wins against Bisu, Savior, and Stork. Those were all great games, and they weren't won purely by excellent mechanical play.
At the time iloveoov dominated the game I hated him for eliminating all my favorite players, but his downfall was all the much sweeter. Just wait until Flash's time comes, because it will sooner or later.
I wonder why the OP watches Starcraft or sports in general. As far as I'm concerned, a big part of enjoying sports comes from excellence. Players pulling off feats that feel impossible in a given circumstance. Players exhibiting deep understanding of the game, appearing to outthink their opposition by two steps or more. Players executing game plans to perfection. Players like Flash or Jaedong. IMHO Flash is the most entertaining player today and one of the history greats based on the level of excellence he consistently displays.
This guy has a crusade against Flash. I see so many posts written by him that are very much trying to convince people Flash is bad for eSports. While you may be right to a certain extent (players are becoming more and more homogenized).
There is certainly more to it then you think. It requires a deep knowledge of the game then what normally would be required to watch Boxer pull off cool micro tricks. Timing attacks, excellent macro, star sense. These things are rather intangible to new people watching and they may not understand it all that well. But one things for sure, anyone who dominates in anything gets attention. Even if a player like Boxer had remained dominant to this day. There's no telling what would happen to the popularity of eSports. Would it have declined still? Increased? No one knows. Since it's on the decline people are looking for a reason.
I remember when Tasteless cast GOM and he and SDM were discussing Flash, the guy was as usual doing his defensive opener and you could just tell by the way they spoke that they were trying not to say he was boring. I think they ended up saying something along the lines of "he’s consistent"
Guess who Tasteless mentioned as his favourite non Protoss player
When Flash cheeses with a planned out, well timed build, everyone denounces him as a cheesy noob with no skill. When Flash dominates with macro, everyone denounces him as a boring macro-style player who dominates without any pizazz.
i can see where the op is coming from but i think more of the blame for the current playing style should be put on those robot korean b-teamers, flash is somewhat interesting in comparison(at least in his tvz, his vt and vp are still unwatchable for me)
It does seem like Flash plays standard but everything he does is strategic. Starcraft is still a strategy game, and though there are fewer unusual plays these days, the best thinker will continue to win.
Flash is a genius, and I can't say I've ever seen a genius who was boring.
On December 31 2009 22:55 Abyzou wrote: I remember when Tasteless cast GOM and he and SDM were discussing Flash, the guy was as usual doing his defensive opener and you could just tell by the way they spoke that they were trying not to say he was boring. I think they ended up saying something along the lines of "he’s consistent".
Anything I could say has already been said before. The only thing I'll add is that you should go read the most recent TLFE.
Anyone who calls Flash a macrobot is either trolling, or doesn't understand Starcraft enough to see the depth of his play beyond his macro. The fact is, that his strategies are more complex and daring than the stuff you'd see in the old days from a player like Boxer. Strategies don't need to be obvious to be intelligent and daring.
On January 01 2010 01:23 TheYango wrote: Anything I could say has already been said before. The only thing I'll add is that you should go read the most recent TLFE.
Anyone who calls Flash a macrobot is either trolling, or doesn't understand Starcraft enough to see the depth of his play beyond his macro.
On December 31 2009 22:55 Abyzou wrote: I remember when Tasteless cast GOM and he and SDM were discussing Flash, the guy was as usual doing his defensive opener and you could just tell by the way they spoke that they were trying not to say he was boring. I think they ended up saying something along the lines of "he’s consistent".
stop trolling
Yeah. This argument actually makes it look like you have no clue of what you're talking about. Flash is tasteless' favorite non-protoss player, and he has always made clear he loves watching flash.
It's like watching tennis and Federer in his prime. You consider a tournament boring just because Federer raped 5 out of 6 opponents? Or rather take Nadal as an example, which alot of people accuse of having a boring style. Does Nadal not produce epic games too? Is it impossible to be struck by awe watching Nadal even though you hate him?
Bullcrap arguments dude. The level of perfection these players bring to the table is what makes it exciting to watch.
It's the same in everything. There will always be people who are results oriented and always people who play for the love of the game and always a mix.
In football, Chelsea are brutal to watch. They play a direct, attacking style that constantly wears down on the opponent's back line and they seem to always score from set pieces or deflections just by sheer ragged force of will.
Arsenal, on the other hand, constantly pass and produce brilliant play and finishes. Arsenal hasn't won anything in four years. People constantly call for the firing of Arsene Wenger, but the bosses keep him around. There are other things more important than winning endless trophies to ArsenalFC.
It really depends how you approach Starcraft. It's not like Flash is going to win forever. There are dark times in every sport depending on what type of game you enjoy. I was personally offended every time the Patriots won a superbowl. But guess what? Those years when the 49'ers were destroying kids? I was in love.
If you can't stomach Flash for his style, don't watch him - good thing about Starcraft -- There are millions of games!!
Nowadays starcraft is boring for those who can`t see and appreciate the perfection and level of games that current players bring....
Do u realize how badly would most of current players , not just Jaedong and Flash - rape the hell out of old school stars at their prime ? If lets say Zero would travel in time and get back to 2004 - this would be rape without competition.
Tho in my opinion starcraft might be far away from being perfected. Every single detail matters. In 2008 - it was all the same. Yet the game evolved dramatically - mech tvz and so on. It is because someone discovered some details - that all others did miss - and made a useless strategy - a great one.
Not every detail is noticed yet. Even definiton of detail can change into more detailed one as the evolution of the game progresses.
The game will evolve and I believe that a complete change of playstyles/strategies is highly possible if not sure.
If the game is perfectly evolved - then even 8 minerals could decide the outcome - and noone would be suprised at that. I know it sounds ridicilous but in 2002 - if u said that - most people would laugh and mock you, ' wat a tard'
Nowadays you would call these mockers 'tards' , wouldn`t you ? Propably. Its narrow-minded.
I think that Starcraft fans are almost spoiled because of the early days of Boxer and the micro intensive play that made the game famous.
When we look at nearly every other sport on the planet, the innovation that still occurs in SC is impressive. Whether we're talking about physical sports like football, baseball, or competitive games like Chess, there really isn't anything close to the constant turnover and fresh maps/ideas that we see in SC. To top it all off, there are so many more games of SC played, which only reinforces the amazing strategic depth of SC.
Perhaps it's because, compared to many people on TL, I never watches Boxer in his prime, but I've never been really bored with the macro style that Flash employs. Some of my favorite games of 2009 were games like Really v. Kal where Really just pulls off a flawless timing push. And Flash's TvZ's recently have just been excellent, because the decision making and control is so flawless. Perhaps, instead of looking for the flashy cheesy plays, we can find the real beauty in sublimely executed long game strategies.
Let's ignor the fact that Flash got roflstomped by Stork and Best and lost to Hyun.
The other point of OP is that TvT is boring. Then don't watch it.
There are plenty of great games to watch instead. Ruby went 18port wraith against Skyhigh. Leta went nukes against Pure and played a hell of a game. Bisu vs. Iris stands for itself as an AMAZING set.
If it was all mechanics and macro, there would be a certain protoss in the ****** OSL Ro4!
Go Starcraft and go this weeks SPL. Flash vs FBH!!!
So you hate starcraft because the player you least like (it's OK, we all have irrational likes and dislikes) is completely dominating.
I for one will sympathize. It sucks if a game you used to like is just getting owned by a single player that you don't like. If, say, Effort were winning absolutely everything and CJ fans were sprouting out of the ground, I would feel annoyed too. (For some reason I don't like Effort as much as he probably deserves... I guess I just want Jaedong to stay on the throne for ever and ever. No offense, CJ fans! Same with Calm, now that I think about it.)
So I would say, learn to take what you can from Flash's play. He's got a long career ahead of him, believe me. Especially for the next couple months (and maybe the next couple years), if you hate Flash, you really will start to hate starcraft. Also try and see if instead of hating him, you can "love to hate" him; like, cast him as a dramatic villain mastermind when you watch SC :D
The whole article is shitty, I really think so. I'm a fan of Flash and when Bisu and Jaedong were N1 I still was but without sniveling how Jae and Bisu are ... cause you have to respect them even if you don't like their play stile. There were many opinions how Flash was boring, turtling, cheesing which is laughable he came up with so many new strategies and stuff and purely outplayed every single S class player at least once(not that he didn't loose to them as well). So when you feel bad that your favourite player is not performing well or got raped by Flash don't start writing crap and wining all over the place just be real fans and wait patiently for the comeback.
Today's stratetegies are far more subtle and in-depth that those of old, that were loose and inefficent at best. Yes, they are less flashy and "wow", but only on the surface. When you understand what is going on in the long term today's games are far more strategically intriguing and innovative than anything that came before them.
Also, if what you said was true, then players like Flash would never lose, yet Hyun managed to beat him by utilizing a tactical error compunded by a geographic feature on Match Point to take him down in a spectacualar display of muta micro. That's smart play, not mechanical. Just because today's plays require higher apm and perfect execution doesn't diminish the strategic options of the players. It actually opens them up.
A build that comes to fruition in 15 minutes is no less intriguing that one that peaks in 5-7 minutes, and actually has many more intricacies and variations because of the length of time at which you are, essentially, at the mercy of your opponent's own strategy. I feel that this thread's premise is purely nostalgic without a solid look into today's scene at all.
Starcraft. As much as it is to entertain people one must not forget it is also a SPORT. If you look at all the other sports they started out as casual games but later become more competitive and distant from the community because they will become proffesional. So in my opinion, people need to stop looking at starcraft as a show buisness that is only meant to entertain people and look at it as a sport where it constantly changes and a scene where each generation improves.
Yes the games are pretty standard these days and some of it is pretty one sided but thats when rooting to see good players face each other is fun. Think of it as building hype.
It was only the other day that i realized just how amazing the game of starcraft is today. It has evolved sooooooooo much. In the start there was no use for vultures almost in TvP but now they are standard. Im sure ghosts will make their way into the scene along with terran have some form of cheeze. Toss has way to much cheeze and zerg has 4/5 pool. So im sure terran will make some more cheezes and the game will evolve more.
Imo this just depends a lot on the point of view. Personally I'm quite a good player but I can't help but to stare in awe at my monitor if Bisu/Jaedong/Flash/Stork are playing. They're just out of this world. Maybe Flash isn't all that characteristic, ya. But BISU!??!?! Fuck yea he is. Fucking cocky bitch that tends to underestimate opponents and looks pretty decent for an asian. Stork's silvers already made up their own character in Stork's psyche so you might as well call him a shizo... And Jaedong, well - he's Jaedong, kid is probably the incarnation of the word ballsy - add to it his death stare and yea, you've got Jaedong the motherfucker that's trashing every fucking other newbie around. Okay, except Flash from this statement as for recent results. Still. Lee motherfucking Jae Dong. k? kthx.
Flash's TvZ is not very campingish. He is very aggresive atm in thatt MU and it is quite fun to watch that, except that there is no one who manage to challenge him
I actually think starcraft fans are getting more retarded at a rate faster than the game is being solved. That's the problem. Dope shit happens every day, but if it's not something ridiculous obvious like in 2005 then they don't see it.
Obviously if flash didn't have heart for the game he wouldn't have the "Cold Mechanics" that makes him the macro machine he is today....Come on now :\
I guess your perception of a player who has heart is a person who just sits at D-C level and plays fastest alot on USWest.
I really don't understand your reasoning behind saying Flash or any other calibur of progamer doesn't have "heart".
It sounds to me like you just can't find anyway to get better and are sitting here bashing people who know what to do to get better.
I feel frustrated from starcraft all the time but that doesn't make me just say "well hes just a robot, he doesn't really love the game." I mean what kind of sense does that even make...?
One more thing games like Chess are still around, why is that?
This is way you cheer for protoss/ protoss has the biggest need for revolution and new 'stategems'.\ so being a fan of protoss is always exciting. esp with the era of zerg dominance. and because of this zerg dominance, i THANK flash. i Thank him for putting jaedong in his place and handing zergs their comeuppance
You've been spoiled. If I had to watch games as they were played 9 years ago, I don't think I'd bother lol. They were fun for the time, but StarCraft is so much better today. Maybe you just need help seeing the more subtle things they do these days, but last night I was watching SC and just thinking about how freaking awesome it is.
I've actually got a pen and a paper beside my bed (I watch SC on my iPod) to write down particular games which at least have moments I thought were intensely clever... I've basically written something down for almost every game.
On December 31 2009 23:10 KwarK wrote: There is still innovation if you know where to look. Just because people have optimised the basics doesn't change the wealth of strategic decisions under the surface. It's very easy for a bad player to look at a game and think "well, he's making the same general units as in every other PvT therefore it's all the same" but the more you understand the game, the more you can appreciate its depth. I recommend you watch some Day9 daily, he's excellent at making the complexity of the game accessable.
QFT. The "innovations" that flash makes aren't as obvious, but if you understand what he's changing from the norm, then you see how he has experimented outside what has been done. These guys practice half their lives (literally) and they will use something when they find something that works.
On December 31 2009 23:10 KwarK wrote: There is still innovation if you know where to look. Just because people have optimised the basics doesn't change the wealth of strategic decisions under the surface. It's very easy for a bad player to look at a game and think "well, he's making the same general units as in every other PvT therefore it's all the same" but the more you understand the game, the more you can appreciate its depth. I recommend you watch some Day9 daily, he's excellent at making the complexity of the game accessable.
QFT. The "innovations" that flash makes aren't as obvious, but if you understand what he's changing from the norm, then you see how he has experimented outside what has been done. These guys practice half their lives (literally) and they will use something when they find something that works.
For some reason i dunno why i dont enjoy watching starcraft as i do last season. Flash is just overdominating the whole scene too much. Granted im a terran and im always amazed at the plays he shows us, but having someone winning all the games he plays isn't someone that i would really like. His TvT and TvZ is too beastly to the point that if he does not make a single mistake there would be no way anyone would be able to win him.
And if he brought about a new revolution in TvP,then everyone will only think of starcraft as Flash. No one will bother about other gamers because Flash is there. There would be no rivalries as Flash is the embodiment of starcraft
edit:well i dont mean i hate him its just that if hes all win u wouldnt even bother to watch since u know that hes gonna win his matches. If he has a 50% record against S class gamers like jaedong and bisu and stork then that would be nice cause u would be hoping he does some solid play to outplay them or whatever
On December 31 2009 23:40 ella_guru wrote: Not every game 'back then' was amazing.
Not every game now is.
But there are still loads of great games in both eras.
exactly.
the only reason we think the games back them were considered better because OGN and MBC chose to only televise the top 8 or something. Besides, we can only find vods of some of the best games, and I personally found a few of those to match today's "boring playstyles". Some were just awkward for me to watch, being a new fan and all. But now with VOD technology we can see every game, and we can see the difference between a good game and a bad game. And one of the biggest reasons FlaSh is considered a normal terran is because everyone else COPIES HIM.
The biggest deal for me nowadays actually is that the progamers have so much time to prepare for a map that I think it's pretty hard to surprise anyone by the time new maps are competitively played.
The best example of this I can think of is split sets in MSL Ro16 and OSL Quarterfinals - I think progamers struggle to find innovative strategies that will get their opponents off balance considering the set is not played out in a single day. Also from the audience standpoint, at least personally watching a set in one day is much more enjoyable and leads to more interesting psychological competition than a split BoX. I think there was an interview where Savior said that Fantasy would not have beat GGPlay (using Fantasy Build) had the Bo5 been played on split days. I think subtle things that emphasize preparation over innovation (and adapting in-game to something you haven't seen before) has led to modern play becoming more mechanical.
I still think the main causes are the depth of modern pro-teams (so there is a lot of opportunity to test a diverse range of strategies for every map) and the fact that competitive maps have been played to death so it's hard to think of something no one has ever seen.
While Flash is without doubt a great player, I don't really see what you guys find to be interesting with him. He basically never makes a mistake, instead he waits for his opponent to make one, and then strike with full force. However, to me he's the master of turtling, and therefore the most boring player I've ever known. I don't possess a great knowledge of this game, so flame if you want. I just can't understand how he can be seen as more entertaining than for example Bisu. It's like cheering for Germany when it comes to football. Entire team defends for the entire game, only to score a goal on a corner kick and eventually win. Flash is exactly the same.
I must admit though, that I really enjoyed seeing Flash roll over Jaedong on HBR, perhaps there is still hope for a more offensive Flash after all.
On January 01 2010 03:58 streamofhonour wrote: For some reason i dunno why i dont enjoy watching starcraft as i do last season. Flash is just overdominating the whole scene too much. Granted im a terran and im always amazed at the plays he shows us, but having someone winning all the games he plays isn't someone that i would really like. His TvT and TvZ is too beastly to the point that if he does not make a single mistake there would be no way anyone would be able to win him.
And if he brought about a new revolution in TvP,then everyone will only think of starcraft as Flash. No one will bother about other gamers because Flash is there. There would be no rivalries as Flash is the embodiment of starcraft
edit:well i dont mean i hate him its just that if hes all win u wouldnt even bother to watch since u know that hes gonna win his matches. If he has a 50% record against S class gamers like jaedong and bisu and stork then that would be nice cause u would be hoping he does some solid play to outplay them or whatever
All good things come to an end.
People were talking about Jaedong like this last season (incidentally, there are never any Flash B-word threads, while Jaedong and Bisu B-word threads are a dime a dozen), and now look what's happened. Players rise and fall, and the fact that the skill level between everyone is so close ensures that the field is always dynamic.
All of your points are so wrong, misguided and lack true thought, that I cannot even bring myself to muster enough enthusiasm to explain how misguided you are. If you don't like starcraft, stop playing it and get off TL.
On December 31 2009 23:13 Pokeball wrote: You're right Flash plays like any other terran (other terrans don't quite understand the matchups like he does though) but that's like every progamer in this day and age - they play to win games. Savior would be a good example seeing he's in your sig and no, having "the CJ face" doesn't somehow make him any different from any other progamer. They all do what they are used to so I don't know why you're simply targeting Flash for being like a robot while saying Jaedong and Savior are so awesome.
People attack you because you give the most pathetic reasons for hating Flash. He's really no different than the majority of progamers and let's face it, the old days of Zeus, Chalrenge and FBH are pretty much over. FBH isn't even really dancing anymore or acting like an asshole.
On December 31 2009 23:09 J1.au wrote: I can't help but notice your signature: "Savior and Jaedong, how come zerg progamers are so awesome?". Why do you like Jaedong while at the same time dismiss Flash as cold, mechanical and uncharismatic. I like both players, however your criticism could apply to them both equally.
Basically this.
Idk about that first part, I think there are definitely terrans that understand tvp better than he does.
Starcraft has become more and more frustrating, it has gotten to the point where I really need to write about it. I’m sure I’ll get tons of angry responses.
Starcraft is not as awesome as it used to be. I know people are going to whine I’m wearing thick nostalgia goggles, it’s only natural. Why is Starcraft in a decline? Because the game has become cold and mechanical, and the true idols with heart have faded out.
Flash is absolutely dominating at the moment and it’s really frustrating, both as a Starcraft enthusiast and as a fan of many players that are having a rough time atm.
I really dislike Flash, because he’s so uncharismatic. And he’s not fun to watch. What’s exciting about Starcraft is awesome, daring plays, back and forth action, all that juicy stuff. With Flash though we get nothing, and then "forth" action as he rolls out of his base and kills the other player off for being too greedy in getting bases. Flash also does a few other things like cheesing, well that’s all fine and dandy but it doesn’t really compensate. Flash is, at the end of the day, a macrobot with perfect mechanics, and he doesn’t have heart like the star players of old did. He’s the best but that doesn’t really matter when it’s not entertaining. I’m sure there are a whole fuckton of zealous fanboys here on TL who cream their pants when they watch him, but I think that to the majority of the audience, things like that don’t matter, what matters is entertaining games, stunning stratagems, matches that surprise you and keep you on the edge of your seat, etc. Instead, players like Flash dominate the players who’re actually entertaining. This is what the metagame has led up to, and that points us to a single conclusion: Starcraft rewards the least entertaining type of strategy the most of all.
We get these kids that are stunningly good, but the appeal is limited. And Starcraft as an e-sports is in decline. Entertaining plays take a back seat because of the corporate pressure on the teams to deliver results. Win win win. So many times, TL users fail to grasp these things because all they think is "But he’s winning, that’s all that matters." So typical.
I remember when Tasteless cast GOM and he and SDM were discussing Flash, the guy was as usual doing his defensive opener and you could just tell by the way they spoke that they were trying not to say he was boring. I think they ended up saying something along the lines of "he’s consistent".
It’s not all bad. But I think that Starcraft, at its core, is ephemeral, with a ticking clock that’s running out. It’s not as solid as a ‘real’ sport, because the game’s gotten (or is in the process of getting) figured out. There might be a few more "revolutions" to come but they’ll be minor. Maybe Dark Archons will become a staple of PvZ. Maybe Ghosts will gain a role in TvP. Maybe optical flare and restoration will find a place in certain builds. Or maybe Zerg will simply find new ways of raping even harder. The map rotation has done its part but it can only go so far in keeping it fresh.
Right now I have my hopes set for SC2. Blizzard promised that the game won’t rely on map design to stay balanced, at least not a first. If they can create a game that stays fresh for more than 10 years, I’ll be glad. The two expansion packs should help, bringing more units, map features, etc into the mix. Or maybe they screw up and we’ll get CS: Source all over again.
Oh look it's you.
The guy that constantly has to tell everyone how much he hates Flash and how bad he is and how boring he is and blah blah blah.
You also consistently disappear after making these comments because you know people will rip into your thoughtless argument with little effort.
You are a troll or very very short sighted.
I also find it funny you consider Jaedong so awesome when his play style is ... BELIEVE IT OR NOT...very mechanical. The fact that you can't realize this means you are clueless.
flash also has arguably the greatest defense early game tvp that ive ever seen. Some of his defense of goon rushes are absolutely insane. Flash vs Anytime on Baekmagojji or whatever its called was fucking nuts.
On January 01 2010 04:43 Tru_m4n wrote: However, to me he's the master of turtling, and therefore the most boring player I've ever known.
I agree that Flash is a master of turtling, in the sense that his defense is extremely good. This is one of the reasons I like watching him play, because defending well is hard to do. Flash puts a lot of care into his simcity, his turret placement, and his defense timings, while at the same time ensuring his opponent doesn't play too greedily. This is so hard to do that it impresses me whenever I see it.
On December 31 2009 23:13 Pokeball wrote: You're right Flash plays like any other terran (other terrans don't quite understand the matchups like he does though) but that's like every progamer in this day and age - they play to win games. Savior would be a good example seeing he's in your sig and no, having "the CJ face" doesn't somehow make him any different from any other progamer. They all do what they are used to so I don't know why you're simply targeting Flash for being like a robot while saying Jaedong and Savior are so awesome.
People attack you because you give the most pathetic reasons for hating Flash. He's really no different than the majority of progamers and let's face it, the old days of Zeus, Chalrenge and FBH are pretty much over. FBH isn't even really dancing anymore or acting like an asshole.
On December 31 2009 23:09 J1.au wrote: I can't help but notice your signature: "Savior and Jaedong, how come zerg progamers are so awesome?". Why do you like Jaedong while at the same time dismiss Flash as cold, mechanical and uncharismatic. I like both players, however your criticism could apply to them both equally.
Basically this.
Idk about that first part, I think there are definitely terrans that understand tvp better than he does.
Flash essentially invented modern TvP back 2 years ago. If by "understand TvP" you actually mean "is doing better in TvP," well that's another story.
On January 01 2010 04:43 Tru_m4n wrote: However, to me he's the master of turtling, and therefore the most boring player I've ever known.
I agree that Flash is a master of turtling, in the sense that his defense is extremely good. This is one of the reasons I like watching him play, because defending well is hard to do. Flash puts a lot of care into his simcity, his turret placement, and his defense timings, while at the same time ensuring his opponent doesn't play too greedily. This is so hard to do that it impresses me whenever I see it.
Sure, he is more or less unbreakable, and has amazing sense for the flow of the game, so he can practically force the opponent to walk into his traps and then smash them when the time is right. All I can say is that I do not enjoy watching this kind of play, and thus Flash is probably the player I dislike most.
Then again, he "invented" this uber-defensive playing style, and other players haven't learned how to handle it - if it's even possible. His strategy is simply incredibly strong and reliable. No one can take that away from Flash.
On January 01 2010 03:09 Chill wrote: I actually think starcraft fans are getting more retarded at a rate faster than the game is being solved. That's the problem. Dope shit happens every day, but if it's not something ridiculous obvious like in 2005 then they don't see it.
This exactly. I am not a very good Starcraft player, never really have been. But every now and then when I watch Day[9]'s analysis of progames, I realize, from a more advanced perspective, players are innovating all the time. It's more like subtle strategical genius rather than flashy micro. I suppose if you develop an eye for it, then your opinion will change; I know mine did.
On December 31 2009 23:13 Pokeball wrote: You're right Flash plays like any other terran (other terrans don't quite understand the matchups like he does though) but that's like every progamer in this day and age - they play to win games. Savior would be a good example seeing he's in your sig and no, having "the CJ face" doesn't somehow make him any different from any other progamer. They all do what they are used to so I don't know why you're simply targeting Flash for being like a robot while saying Jaedong and Savior are so awesome.
People attack you because you give the most pathetic reasons for hating Flash. He's really no different than the majority of progamers and let's face it, the old days of Zeus, Chalrenge and FBH are pretty much over. FBH isn't even really dancing anymore or acting like an asshole.
On December 31 2009 23:09 J1.au wrote: I can't help but notice your signature: "Savior and Jaedong, how come zerg progamers are so awesome?". Why do you like Jaedong while at the same time dismiss Flash as cold, mechanical and uncharismatic. I like both players, however your criticism could apply to them both equally.
Basically this.
Idk about that first part, I think there are definitely terrans that understand tvp better than he does.
Flash was basically TvP and the only two people that may be playing TvP better than him in this day and age would be Fantasy and Really. He's dropping games against the dragons because they work extremely hard to produce builds that catch him offguard. Its pretty obvious if you watch the games and he does mention it in his MSL interview that they do rather strange things against him (Best using high templars against Flash while not normally using them against other terrans).
I understood 2 things from your post: - "I don't understand this game and only get amazed by seeing those funny zergish dogs attacking so fast and winning games" - "You TeamLiquid won't agree with this because StarCraft community consists 100% of Flash fanboys"
Honestly, i think that you are totally trolling this but GJ with doing such a large post to prevent banning - b/c now you have shown arguments (which are soooo wrong...) and you are "just stating your opinion"
I definately agree watching large macro games like 95% of todays games are, isnt as fun as watching the more micro oriented games of old.
IDEA: What if there was a limit on how many unit producing structures could be made? Of course itd have to be balanced. But it might be cool and diffirent for a tourny or something.
On January 01 2010 04:43 Tru_m4n wrote: While Flash is without doubt a great player, I don't really see what you guys find to be interesting with him. He basically never makes a mistake, instead he waits for his opponent to make one, and then strike with full force. However, to me he's the master of turtling, and therefore the most boring player I've ever known. I don't possess a great knowledge of this game, so flame if you want. I just can't understand how he can be seen as more entertaining than for example Bisu. It's like cheering for Germany when it comes to football. Entire team defends for the entire game, only to score a goal on a corner kick and eventually win. Flash is exactly the same.
I must admit though, that I really enjoyed seeing Flash roll over Jaedong on HBR, perhaps there is still hope for a more offensive Flash after all.
You haven't watched Flash's recent games if you think that he is really turtlish. Although that is true in the past, I can't see how you would say he is turtling when his tvz play has been very aggressive. Much of his games recently are like the Flash vs Jaedong games you watched
i don't understand how idiots like yourself can make the statement that "starcraft is on the decline" with no proof, evidence, etc. Is this how you "feel"? Do your feelings equate to fact?
I'll tell you straight up that I went to Jaedong vs Flash at Yonsgsan at 430 pm and waited 2 hours in line and still didn't get in. There was so much pushing and shoving, Yongsan mall representatives were screaming at us, the line was forced to relocate outside in the freakin cold... and yet, even with all that wait I can \tell you truthfully that at least 200 people did NOT get in and had to wait outside in line to watch the game on a TV screen. I was one of those people and eventually gave up, went home and watched it on youtube. Though anecdotal, I will forward this piece of evidence that the game is not in decline, which is better than your total lack of evidence.
I also don't understand how you assert that the player's "appeal" is limited. How do you measure "appeal"?
As someone who really doesn't have much appreciation for sports sometimes, let me just give you a piece of advice.
EVERYTHING in sports is mechanical. It doesn't matter how strategically you play the game, or no matter how well you click, it doesn't matter if your mechanics are not down in ANY sport.
In every sport, basketball, soccer, tennis, football, you need an abnormal amount of physical conditioning and mechanical training to be on par with every other guy on the field. I play Tennis, and that game is so physically and mechanically demanding that it's not even funny. Not applying the right angle to stroke, pressure, weight, and spin, will have your ball flying out of the court like nothing.
So, I'm not surprised that a game like Starcraft was perfected so well that your mechanics have to be down if you want ANY chance of beating the other player. It ALL comes down to mechanics, no matter what perspective you look at it.
If you don't like it, don't play sports. If you have a rank (which I don't) to prove that you have had the mechanics and can speak from experience, great. I will respect your opinion, and I DO respect your opinion.
Can I have a good nuke mods? I love Boxer way too much to say no.
Also, in case I didn't mention it? Flash is cancer and TL is full of frothing fanboys who eat that shit up. Oh and people who like 'loli', aka cartoon child pornography, and think it should be legalized. Totally cool dudes, see the attached image for my reaction.
It's true Best's loss prompted me to write this - I couldn't sleep because it was nagging me, so I had to post it. I've felt this way for a fucking long ass time though. You're definitely correct in that JD is just as 'bad' as Flash is, however, he is at least somewhat charismatic, he has a much better understanding of how to communicate with fans and just plain being an ambassador of SC, just like Boxer was/is. That's why I like him. He has heart. And fuckin' sick dance moves.
Also lol'd at the PM I got from someone, I feel so offended that someone dares message me and call me a retard.
Happy new years, you delightful queers. I've had some good fucking food and wine. <:
On January 01 2010 11:44 Abyzou wrote: You're definitely correct in that JD is just as 'bad' as Flash is, however, he is at least somewhat charismatic, he has a much better understanding of how to communicate with fans and just plain being an ambassador of SC, just like Boxer was/is. That's why I like him. He has heart. And fuckin' sick dance moves.
Jaedong is pretty much a social outcast. He doesn't talk much to anyone, avoids contact and tells himself before games and during practice he's going to kill his opponent? Flash is not the most charismatic guy either, not like Boxer at least (no one is), but he doesn't seem weird in any way to me (except his face twitching rofl)
I don't know if you know this, OP, but all sports- in fact, all competitive endeavors- are subject to the same law. That is, "early variation and later standardization". Stephen J Gould had a fantastic set of articles where he wrote about this phenomena, and how it applied to both evolutionary biology and baseball. Did you know that at one point the massive dominance of the bilateral, multicellular, body-plan with specialized organs wasn't so assured (e.g., insects, vertebrates, other arthropods, etc.)? There were many more radially symmetrical multi-cellular organisms (of which some still exist), pancake shaped organisms, etc. There was a lot more deep variety. But a lot of them were just less efficient.
What you're seeing in Starcraft is just that. The wild and woolly days are over. The standardization phase is here. The game will lose certain fans- those in it for the wild and woolly plays- and it will keep others, those who are interested in the minutae of small decisions and factors that separate winners and losers these days. In other words, if you're going to get entertainment out of the game these days you also have to appreciate the subtleties of the game.
Just as fans of baseball who are really into the specifics of the game do- they get their enjoyment out of the little things, the nuances, the subtleties, as well as the decision making that goes into running a team. Baseball is pretty much completely figured out, after all, and I'm sure there are people who are like"yawn... another ground hit into a double play." etc. I used to get mad when football coaches pretty much always punted instead of "going for it" on 4th down- I mean hey, I often "went for it" in videogame football with my fake Field Goal passes! But of course in the real world the game becomes more standardized and you almost never see stuff like that, right?
There's no coincidence that as Starcraft gets more popular, the emphasis increasingly comes on Team Play. This is because more of the enjoyment for fans now comes from managing teams and all the decisions that go into that, just like it does in most other sports.
Errrr response to the first post If you don't like Flash's solid standard play then watch UpMagic. usually creative. but doesn't win as much.
edit: to bandwagoning. everybody follows this in some way. nobody has a great reason for liking every player. but its not bandwagoning is if you stay a fan of a person after decline etc. except for Boxer because everybody just yells that they like him.
Can I have a good nuke mods? I love Boxer way too much to say no.
Also, in case I didn't mention it? Flash is cancer and TL is full of frothing fanboys who eat that shit up. Oh and people who like 'loli', aka cartoon child pornography, and think it should be legalized. Totally cool dudes, see the attached image for my reaction.
It's true Best's loss prompted me to write this - I couldn't sleep because it was nagging me, so I had to post it. I've felt this way for a fucking long ass time though. You're definitely correct in that JD is just as 'bad' as Flash is, however, he is at least somewhat charismatic, he has a much better understanding of how to communicate with fans and just plain being an ambassador of SC, just like Boxer was/is. That's why I like him. He has heart. And fuckin' sick dance moves.
Also lol'd at the PM I got from someone, I feel so offended that someone dares message me and call me a retard.
Happy new years, you delightful queers. I've had some good fucking food and wine. <:
Adios.
so you write a post about how flash is boring and defensive and mechanical in response to a game where he reads his opponent and does an allin timing rush to punish HIM for aiming for a long macro game?
It's true Best's loss prompted me to write this - I couldn't sleep because it was nagging me, so I had to post it. I've felt this way for a fucking long ass time though.
This guy seriously lost sleep over someone in another country doing something well? He doesn't even know the kid.
On January 01 2010 12:17 29 fps wrote: that "response" isnt helping you any bit.
I'd say it actually made things worse considering he pretty much ignored every response in the entire thread and spouted more stupid bullshit, even throwing some random insults to the general population of TL in there.
Can I have a good nuke mods? I love Boxer way too much to say no.
Also, in case I didn't mention it? Flash is cancer and TL is full of frothing fanboys who eat that shit up. Oh and people who like 'loli', aka cartoon child pornography, and think it should be legalized. Totally cool dudes, see the attached image for my reaction.
It's true Best's loss prompted me to write this - I couldn't sleep because it was nagging me, so I had to post it. I've felt this way for a fucking long ass time though. You're definitely correct in that JD is just as 'bad' as Flash is, however, he is at least somewhat charismatic, he has a much better understanding of how to communicate with fans and just plain being an ambassador of SC, just like Boxer was/is. That's why I like him. He has heart. And fuckin' sick dance moves.
Also lol'd at the PM I got from someone, I feel so offended that someone dares message me and call me a retard.
Happy new years, you delightful queers. I've had some good fucking food and wine. <:
Adios.
So, to sum things up:
-You don't like Flash. -You admit that everything you said about Flash applies to Jaedong as well, making you a hypocrite. -You got so butthurt over Flash beating Best that you lost sleep over it. (just ROFLMAO) -Then you call the rest of us 'pathetic'
Also IdrA just completely wrecked your shit.
But really man, you might want to seriously consider taking a break from SC watching if you can actually get so upset at a player that he makes you LOSE SLEEP.
To anyone else in this thread who is worried about Flash 'dominating SC', jesus people, it's only been like 2 months since Flash turned godmode on. Jaedong had a much longer reign and I didn't see anyone claiming "It's over, Brood War is finished, Jaedong broke the game"
Players will adapt, Flash's godmode will turn off eventually, life will go on.
Starcraft has become more and more frustrating, it has gotten to the point where I really need to write about it. I’m sure I’ll get tons of angry responses.
Starcraft is not as awesome as it used to be. I know people are going to whine I’m wearing thick nostalgia goggles, it’s only natural. Why is Starcraft in a decline? Because the game has become cold and mechanical, and the true idols with heart have faded out.
Flash is absolutely dominating at the moment and it’s really frustrating, both as a Starcraft enthusiast and as a fan of many players that are having a rough time atm.
I really dislike Flash, because he’s so uncharismatic. And he’s not fun to watch. What’s exciting about Starcraft is awesome, daring plays, back and forth action, all that juicy stuff. With Flash though we get nothing, and then "forth" action as he rolls out of his base and kills the other player off for being too greedy in getting bases. Flash also does a few other things like cheesing, well that’s all fine and dandy but it doesn’t really compensate. Flash is, at the end of the day, a macrobot with perfect mechanics, and he doesn’t have heart like the star players of old did. He’s the best but that doesn’t really matter when it’s not entertaining. I’m sure there are a whole fuckton of zealous fanboys here on TL who cream their pants when they watch him, but I think that to the majority of the audience, things like that don’t matter, what matters is entertaining games, stunning stratagems, matches that surprise you and keep you on the edge of your seat, etc. Instead, players like Flash dominate the players who’re actually entertaining. This is what the metagame has led up to, and that points us to a single conclusion: Starcraft rewards the least entertaining type of strategy the most of all.
We get these kids that are stunningly good, but the appeal is limited. And Starcraft as an e-sports is in decline. Entertaining plays take a back seat because of the corporate pressure on the teams to deliver results. Win win win. So many times, TL users fail to grasp these things because all they think is "But he’s winning, that’s all that matters." So typical.
I remember when Tasteless cast GOM and he and SDM were discussing Flash, the guy was as usual doing his defensive opener and you could just tell by the way they spoke that they were trying not to say he was boring. I think they ended up saying something along the lines of "he’s consistent".
It’s not all bad. But I think that Starcraft, at its core, is ephemeral, with a ticking clock that’s running out. It’s not as solid as a ‘real’ sport, because the game’s gotten (or is in the process of getting) figured out. There might be a few more "revolutions" to come but they’ll be minor. Maybe Dark Archons will become a staple of PvZ. Maybe Ghosts will gain a role in TvP. Maybe optical flare and restoration will find a place in certain builds. Or maybe Zerg will simply find new ways of raping even harder. The map rotation has done its part but it can only go so far in keeping it fresh.
Right now I have my hopes set for SC2. Blizzard promised that the game won’t rely on map design to stay balanced, at least not a first. If they can create a game that stays fresh for more than 10 years, I’ll be glad. The two expansion packs should help, bringing more units, map features, etc into the mix. Or maybe they screw up and we’ll get CS: Source all over again.
to summarize what he just said : flash is boring blah blah flash is boring
It's funny, because BeSt is the most "uncharismatic" player in the game. And considering that Flash hasn't even won anything yet this season, this is a waste of a butthurt fan rant.
On December 31 2009 22:55 Abyzou wrote: Flash is, at the end of the day, a macrobot
Sounds like Best, to me! In fact, that's the only Best can do right.
On January 01 2010 11:53 MrHoon wrote: lol so many flash fans in TL
If I heard this 2 years ago I would've died laughing
Y'all are bandwagoners.
psh, ive been a fan of flash since the first time I saw him play, which was savior vs flash, blue storm, in the GSI. Though the "bandwagon" player on tl is def jaedong and not flash. Theres like 4 times as many jaedong fanboys as anyone else.
Can I have a good nuke mods? I love Boxer way too much to say no.
Also, in case I didn't mention it? Flash is cancer and TL is full of frothing fanboys who eat that shit up. Oh and people who like 'loli', aka cartoon child pornography, and think it should be legalized. Totally cool dudes, see the attached image for my reaction.
It's true Best's loss prompted me to write this - I couldn't sleep because it was nagging me, so I had to post it. I've felt this way for a fucking long ass time though. You're definitely correct in that JD is just as 'bad' as Flash is, however, he is at least somewhat charismatic, he has a much better understanding of how to communicate with fans and just plain being an ambassador of SC, just like Boxer was/is. That's why I like him. He has heart. And fuckin' sick dance moves.
Also lol'd at the PM I got from someone, I feel so offended that someone dares message me and call me a retard.
Happy new years, you delightful queers. I've had some good fucking food and wine. <:
Adios.
So, to sum things up:
-You don't like Flash. -You admit that everything you said about Flash applies to Jaedong as well, making you a hypocrite. -You got so butthurt over Flash beating Best that you lost sleep over it. (just ROFLMAO) -Then you call the rest of us 'pathetic'
Also IdrA just completely wrecked your shit.
But really man, you might want to seriously consider taking a break from SC watching if you can actually get so upset at a player that he makes you LOSE SLEEP.
To anyone else in this thread who is worried about Flash 'dominating SC', jesus people, it's only been like 2 months since Flash turned godmode on. Jaedong had a much longer reign and I didn't see anyone claiming "It's over, Brood War is finished, Jaedong broke the game"
Players will adapt, Flash's godmode will turn off eventually, life will go on.
Feels like Jaedongs reign was weaker than this tho and somethings telling me Flash isn't gonna stop for a while.
Can I have a good nuke mods? I love Boxer way too much to say no.
Also, in case I didn't mention it? Flash is cancer and TL is full of frothing fanboys who eat that shit up. Oh and people who like 'loli', aka cartoon child pornography, and think it should be legalized. Totally cool dudes, see the attached image for my reaction.
It's true Best's loss prompted me to write this - I couldn't sleep because it was nagging me, so I had to post it. I've felt this way for a fucking long ass time though. You're definitely correct in that JD is just as 'bad' as Flash is, however, he is at least somewhat charismatic, he has a much better understanding of how to communicate with fans and just plain being an ambassador of SC, just like Boxer was/is. That's why I like him. He has heart. And fuckin' sick dance moves.
Also lol'd at the PM I got from someone, I feel so offended that someone dares message me and call me a retard.
Happy new years, you delightful queers. I've had some good fucking food and wine. <:
Adios.
So, to sum things up:
-You don't like Flash. -You admit that everything you said about Flash applies to Jaedong as well, making you a hypocrite. -You got so butthurt over Flash beating Best that you lost sleep over it. (just ROFLMAO) -Then you call the rest of us 'pathetic'
Also IdrA just completely wrecked your shit.
But really man, you might want to seriously consider taking a break from SC watching if you can actually get so upset at a player that he makes you LOSE SLEEP.
To anyone else in this thread who is worried about Flash 'dominating SC', jesus people, it's only been like 2 months since Flash turned godmode on. Jaedong had a much longer reign and I didn't see anyone claiming "It's over, Brood War is finished, Jaedong broke the game"
Players will adapt, Flash's godmode will turn off eventually, life will go on.
Feels like Jaedongs reign was weaker than this tho and somethings telling me Flash isn't gonna stop for a while.
On January 01 2010 13:04 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Flash hasn't even won anything yet this season
hes still won 90% of his games in two months and shattered the elo record. So hes still dominated harder than jaedong ever has, though its not really a "reign" [though, neither was jaedongs, as he never dominated every league.]
Complaining about the players having no personality or being uncharismatic is stupid. The only way to accomplish anything in SC is to completely sacrifice all the normal aspects of human life and become a machine. If they don't, they won't win matches and you'll never even see them on TV.
The players are robots who spend all their time glued to their monitor slaving away for little to no reward. It's pretty hard to expect a nerdy kid who has no free time to do anything but play Starcraft and has experienced nothing else in life to be very interesting. Even the way they high-five each other in celebration after they win a match is just routine. They're probably more relieved that they didn't fail than truly happy about the win.
Nice opinion OP, I'll respectfully disagree on almost every front
You get out of Starcraft what you put into it. It being a -game- and all, most people don't put a lot into it, and certainly don't get a lot out of it. And, No, losing 10 games in a row and then smashing your keyboard isn't putting -anything- into the game.
Flash's specific strategies are his and yes, they're not as fun to watch as say, Iris's strategies. What makes Starcraft so amazing is that there are such a wide variety of viable strategies... Yea boxer's old strategies aren't viable anymore because even a B-team progamer has evolved to counter those strategies with sheer multitasking. The game has advanced a lot in a good way in my opinion.
To me it almost sounds as if you want baseball teams to start focusing on strictly hitting home runs because it's fun. Get Real. My 2 cents.
EDIT: I also find your comment that starcraft is "near" solved ridiculous... One could argue that Chess is slightly more simple version of Starcraft (not really, but enough to make this point) Chess has been played for too long and is not going to be solved. 9 handed 200 big blind poker isn't getting solved either. Sure 1big blind HU is insta solved. Just because it's not OMFG HOW DID HE DO THAT amazing fun to watch doesn't mean anything... Players are still improving everyday... Micromanagement itself is essentially "unsolvable" and that's without a real layer of strategy. Come on. You're more than vastly over simplifying the trend your observing and then bending it to your point.
On January 01 2010 11:53 MrHoon wrote: lol so many flash fans in TL
If I heard this 2 years ago I would've died laughing
Y'all are bandwagoners.
You know people haven't been Flash fans for that long when they're already counting his titles before he gets them.
Yes this is the best he's ever looked with the possible exception of Feb-May 2008 (and even then probably not), but the lonely band of early Flash fans have been down this road before.
Now, those of us who've been his fans since the early days are just hoping with all our might that something horrible doesn't happen like, oh, the last 4 seasons.
the reason he lost the other times was exhaustion and stubbornness. Flash isn't over worked and hes playing with a variety of styles. This is easily the best Flash has ever looked. If he doesnt win now, he never will. I cant imagine him being in a better situation in the future tbh.
On December 31 2009 23:29 TwoToneTerran wrote: So you say you cared about the old idols, yet you chastize Flash for winning with safe, "mechanical" play?
Nada was nothing but pure mechanical play. Oov invented boring, safe standard, Savior did the same for zerg. ....
Savior who was known for not building sunkens and defending only with lings? Sorry, I don't buy your line there.
On January 01 2010 11:53 MrHoon wrote: lol so many flash fans in TL
If I heard this 2 years ago I would've died laughing
Y'all are bandwagoners.
+1 seems most of TL from what I have seen jumps from players they like alot.
I started Starcraft back in May didnt' even know who was pro and all that stuff but I have always had a fond liking of Jaedong's style and zero's. Those 2 will always be my top 2 favorite zergs ^^.
A year ago Calm wasn't even a .500 player. Now he's a top 10 player, top 3 Zerg, an MSL winner, and in the OSL semis. Stuff like that is why you should follow Starcraft.
Can I have a good nuke mods? I love Boxer way too much to say no.
Also, in case I didn't mention it? Flash is cancer and TL is full of frothing fanboys who eat that shit up. Oh and people who like 'loli', aka cartoon child pornography, and think it should be legalized. Totally cool dudes, see the attached image for my reaction.
It's true Best's loss prompted me to write this - I couldn't sleep because it was nagging me, so I had to post it. I've felt this way for a fucking long ass time though. You're definitely correct in that JD is just as 'bad' as Flash is, however, he is at least somewhat charismatic, he has a much better understanding of how to communicate with fans and just plain being an ambassador of SC, just like Boxer was/is. That's why I like him. He has heart. And fuckin' sick dance moves.
Also lol'd at the PM I got from someone, I feel so offended that someone dares message me and call me a retard.
Happy new years, you delightful queers. I've had some good fucking food and wine. <:
Adios.
So, to sum things up:
-You don't like Flash. -You admit that everything you said about Flash applies to Jaedong as well, making you a hypocrite. -You got so butthurt over Flash beating Best that you lost sleep over it. (just ROFLMAO) -Then you call the rest of us 'pathetic'
Also IdrA just completely wrecked your shit.
But really man, you might want to seriously consider taking a break from SC watching if you can actually get so upset at a player that he makes you LOSE SLEEP.
To anyone else in this thread who is worried about Flash 'dominating SC', jesus people, it's only been like 2 months since Flash turned godmode on. Jaedong had a much longer reign and I didn't see anyone claiming "It's over, Brood War is finished, Jaedong broke the game"
Players will adapt, Flash's godmode will turn off eventually, life will go on.
Feels like Jaedongs reign was weaker than this tho and somethings telling me Flash isn't gonna stop for a while.
Jaedong's reign was definitely weaker. That's sort of to be expected when your best matchup will sometimes leave you at a disadvantage just because your opponent chose right. As far as I can tell, Flash looks so dominant because just by playing to his strengths he winds up with the advantage a build-order advantage gives Jaedong -in every game-.
On December 31 2009 23:29 TwoToneTerran wrote: So you say you cared about the old idols, yet you chastize Flash for winning with safe, "mechanical" play?
Nada was nothing but pure mechanical play. Oov invented boring, safe standard, Savior did the same for zerg. ....
Savior who was known for not building sunkens and defending only with lings? Sorry, I don't buy your line there.
When he didn't build sunkens, he didn't rely on the terran to not attack him. He could safely afford to do so because he delayed the terran somehow long enough. You see that in some ZvTs nowadays, Zergs are able to forgo sunkens if the terran is prevented from moving out quickly enough.
Kind of agree with the op. I found starcraft a lot more exciting 3-4 years ago but then again that could probably be attributed to the fact that I was new to the competitive scene back then.
It's difficult for any game to constantly deliver new surprises. This game is over 10 years old. Do you really think that there are any new strategems left to be discovered? That strategies are still evolving and that small gems are still being found are testaments to the amazingness of this game.
I do agree that strategies are no longer "new" because they have "settled" and players are now playing a game primarily of optimization, not innovation -- your main point. But I still think that watching players perform these optimizations is very entertaining. Jaedong's muta micro is beastly. Flash's management is unworldly. They may not be innovative, but they're darned good at what they do and it's an honor to behold. And besides -- there IS still a LITTLE bit of innovation here and there. Some are map dependent, some are not. I think ZvT and PvZ can still improve a little bit more through innovation.
On a long time horizon though, the players will be the only "new" parts of the game. From analyzing the allure of this game, I've made a couple conclusions about sports in general. Really, it's the players that deliver. The game will get old (how old is chess?) but the meta-game and the players will always deliver a fresh insight.
It's a relief that Starcraft is complex enough for new strategies to come out now and then, even if the rate has decreased over the years.
Some people can derive entertainment from the nuances of management play and the thought that goes into it. Some people can only derive entertainment from stylish plays, such as the kind Leta does all the time.
A lot of people can't enjoy TvT because they don't appreciate the thought behind every decision and the strategical nature of it, whereas a match-up with a lot of obvious tactics and aggression like TvZ or PvZ is generally loved.
I don't want to say one crowd understands the game and the other doesn't, but I think someone who truly understands StarCraft is more likely to appreciate that management style. Players like iloveoov and FlaSh are definitely innovative, just not in a flashy and obvious way.
On January 01 2010 14:59 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Some people can derive entertainment from the nuances of management play and the thought that goes into it. Some people can only derive entertainment from stylish plays, such as the kind Leta does all the time.
A lot of people can't enjoy TvT because they don't appreciate the thought behind every decision and the strategical nature of it, whereas a match-up with a lot of obvious tactics and aggression like TvZ or PvZ is generally loved.
I don't want to say one crowd understands the game and the other doesn't, but I think someone who truly understands StarCraft is more likely to appreciate that management style. Players like iloveoov and FlaSh are definitely innovative, just not in a flashy and obvious way.
I'm terrible at Starcraft and I love watching TvT and other matchups where positioning and management make a huge difference.
On January 01 2010 14:06 jalstar wrote: A year ago Calm wasn't even a .500 player. Now he's a top 10 player, top 3 Zerg, an MSL winner, and in the OSL semis. Stuff like that is why you should follow Starcraft.
Calm wasn't a TOP zerg a year ago but a very dependable zerg in the STX line up. A year ago, Calm had very good mirco but his macro seemed lacking, but still the zerg for STX (unlike Calm, July wasn't a zerg that can do all three match ups)
But yeah... I know this because I am a STX fan. If you don't follow the pro scene closely, you won't know these underrated players.
PS: Shine is a noob, wait until 2010 to see his fail.
On January 01 2010 11:44 Abyzou wrote: Also, in case I didn't mention it? Flash is cancer and TL is full of frothing fanboys who eat that shit up. Oh and people who like 'loli', aka cartoon child pornography, and think it should be legalized. Totally cool dudes, see the attached image for my reaction.
Of the 4 "S-Class" players, Flash is the most under-appreciated. Note that when Jaedong and Bisu start dominating, they get 3+ B-word threads apiece. How many has Flash had on his latest tear? Not one.
On January 01 2010 11:44 Abyzou wrote: It's true Best's loss prompted me to write this - I couldn't sleep because it was nagging me, so I had to post it. I've felt this way for a fucking long ass time though. You're definitely correct in that JD is just as 'bad' as Flash is, however, he is at least somewhat charismatic, he has a much better understanding of how to communicate with fans and just plain being an ambassador of SC, just like Boxer was/is. That's why I like him. He has heart. And fuckin' sick dance moves.
1) How the hell is a subjective idea of the more "charismatic" player have any relevance to the decline of SC? One player, even the best player in the world, cannot have that big of an impact in merely 4 months, without having even won a title yet in that time. 2) You probably don't speak Korean, and you've never met Flash or Jaedong. How are you to judge which one is more personable or charismatic? 3) Jaedong is 20, Flash is 17. I'd expect Jaedong to have the more mature and composed image than Flash. It's no fault of Flash's that he acts as a 17-year-old does. You don't become the "Ambassador of E-sports" overnight. Hell, he's not even as old as Boxer was when he STARTED his career progamer.
On a slightly related note, it shocks me how people latch onto personality flaws of these progamers and fault them to no end for them. They're usually barely 20 years old. How many 20-year-old celebrities do you know that aren't dickheads or strange in some way or another?
EDIT: Reading your OP again, I wanted to comment on this:
On December 31 2009 22:55 Abyzou wrote: It’s not all bad. But I think that Starcraft, at its core, is ephemeral, with a ticking clock that’s running out. It’s not as solid as a ‘real’ sport, because the game’s gotten (or is in the process of getting) figured out. There might be a few more "revolutions" to come but they’ll be minor. Maybe Dark Archons will become a staple of PvZ. Maybe Ghosts will gain a role in TvP. Maybe optical flare and restoration will find a place in certain builds. Or maybe Zerg will simply find new ways of raping even harder. The map rotation has done its part but it can only go so far in keeping it fresh.
"Real sports" aren't figured out? A dynamic metagame isn't just driven by big "revolutions". You don't see coaches rewriting their playbooks every season because someone entirely redefined how the game is played. They're pretty "figured out" too, if that's the standard you're going by.
Dude, theres a thousand other plays to watch other than flash. The only reason you are picking on him is because he is on top, and lately that is only TvZ and TvT, i doubt you mentioned TvP. The game vs Jaedong as exciting, he brought something new to the table, denying a top zerg's third for how long? yeah , incredible. How is that boring? I think you are just whining for whatever player you are rooting for. Flash is awesome. He's dedicated, stern, and balls out.
ed: also, 10+ years to "figure a game out" is pretty unreal imo.
I just want to say that Flash isn't boring. He has been mixing up his strategies for the past few months now and the games were quite exciting to watch. Too bad I don't like him all that much.
This guy is bitching about macrobots ruining Starcraft then mentions he lost sleep over Best (ahahahhaa) losing to Flash.
God, how dumb can this guy get. Best is a very good player overall, but what he does best is set his "z" key on autofire, click through his 30 gateways and simply kill terrans with waves of zealots or do a billion recalls. He doesn't even need high templars because his macro is simply too good.
At least keep your hate consistent. Jaedong's and Savior's personality aren't anything to write home about either so don't bring up the "Jaedong has heart" argument or say "I feel closer to Savior because he said he's a pants person" - they're still faceless people who smash their keyboards day in and day out.
I'm sure this has been said somewhere in the thread but why is it Flash's fault for dominating everyone so hard?
Maybe if other progamers could actually play straight up games vs him instead of always doing some kind of super econ or super aggressive build then we could maybe see some GGs. I mean look at Jaedong v Flash on Loki II... one of the best games ever imo because both were mechanically so strong and confident in their ability to play straight up...
On January 01 2010 20:49 BookTwo wrote: flash vs calm set 4 just finished like 5 mins ago, and I was tense the whole match. imo, the game shifted balance a few times, + Show Spoiler +
when flash lost those marines in the middle to muta+ling
and the ending was just pure genius. I thought it was brilliant play, despite what you may think.
what do you want to see? more nukes or something?
more small battles not always waiting for the full unit mix to fight?
Just because players nowadays don't do fancy micros such as 3 marines killing 6 lurkers doesn't mean they are any less innovative. Players now focus on refining build-orders and timings, which is incredibly awesome if you can see though it =) It shows how ridiculously deep they understand the game. And I, personally, find it extremely beautiful to watch (like how a Terran pushes out and breaks his zerg opponent into pieces right before the first defiler is out ...)
I just wanted to mention that while reading this thread and some others the words bandwagon or fare weather-fans are thrown around way too often. People like to watch winners. You know why you don't cheer for losers (sans being on the team you like)? Because consistently being let down is stupid.
I'm not advocating jumping on whoever at the minute is winning, but so many of you seem to think that's what everybody does. The best players have more fans. A player who is doing well in all of the leagues will continue to get coverage and talked about because they're consistently televised and doing well. It creates an illusion of extreme fanboyism that just isn't there.
it gets tricky here, since your 1st comment wasn't a spoiler, but this one makes it a spoiler ;d Totally harmless though
the match could've been 2-0 or 1-1 going into the 3rd set, but since you said this, now we know it couldn't have been 2-0, else we would know who won the 3rd set. So we know who wins the 2nd set after watching the 1st one.
ceaRshaf: I don't see how you came to that conclusion.
I think the same could be said about back when Savior was dominating or Oov or Nada. They all played a management/macro style which would crush everyone of their time. And the fact that they defeated everyone would only motivate them to play the same winning style until someone figured out something to beat it. For me the cold hard progaming mechanics and overanalyzed strategies is what makes watching progamers interesting in the first place. Because they do amazing things that you can never duplicate.
I just looked at this thread. I remember the same complaint being made when Boxer defeated Grrrr 3-0 in an exhibition match in 2001. Back then people accused Boxer of being boringly mechanical, no joke, in contrast to the innovative and brilliant Grrrr. Nothing's changed...
This to me is the conflict between the competition and entertainment parts of Starcraft. I would have to agree Starcraft is a lot less entertaining to WATCH today than it was years ago. Whether that has to do with the game having been "figured out" or whether it's simply a result of the latest map trends or whatever else is up in the air for debate, but it's a fact that's hard to deny. The players today are certainly far better, but gameplay has gotten relatively predictable over the years.
The problem really lies in the fact that Starcraft is a competitive game and players are paid to win, not to entertain the audience. In an environment where the skill gap between players is consistently shrinking, players today don't have the room to screw around and do outlandish things in games nor do they have a whole lot of room to start experimenting with things. In order to be successful, players must find the most effective builds and strategy and unfortunately, that means you see relatively predictable games in the end. The best Starcraft players aren't the ones that pull something out of nowhere magically. They are the ones that are consistently good. Flash is probably the perfect example of this at the moment. He doesn't have the highlight of Boxer or Nada, but his gameplay is precise and accurate that he has no need for such highlights to win a game. If anything, the highlights are coming from those that are playing AGAINST Flash when he is occasionally beaten because it almost takes some sort of highlight moment to get a one-up on him. So long as players' salaries and contracts are affected by their Win/Loss record, expect to see them continue to strive for perfection regardless of how exciting or dull the resulting games are.
If you want to think of it another way, think about baseball. Did you know that often Little League or Minor League baseball is actually more entertaining to watch in many instances? You wouldn't initially think so, but it makes sense when you realize that professionals are more likely to catch the ball or throw it accurately, therefore behave and perform more predictably. On the other hand, lesser skilled players make more mistakes and despite their lower skill level, there's excitement for the person watching because you're not so sure that they'll make the double play or if the catcher will be able to make the throw to 2nd base in time. Of course Major League Baseball compensates for this with the overall game experience which means big stadiums, concession stands, giant crowds, marketing, high profile rivalries, etc. But when it comes down to it, amateurs are often more fun to watch than seriously competing professionals when it comes down to pure visual entertainment.
I think an interesting way to make Starcraft more fun to watch for the average person is to add a "minor league" type of system for so many of the 2nd stringers we see on the sidelines. I'm sure if you watch the lesser skilled people play, you'll often see a lot more of "old school Starcraft" in it.
On January 02 2010 08:41 HeartOfTofu wrote: I think an interesting way to make Starcraft more fun to watch for the average person is to add a "minor league" type of system for so many of the 2nd stringers we see on the sidelines. I'm sure if you watch the lesser skilled people play, you'll often see a lot more of "old school Starcraft" in it.
Foreigner matches?
B-teamers might not be that interesting to watch though, I feel that it'd be just as much standard boring playing as with A-team pros, just a small bit worse, and without that excitement of important games.
On January 02 2010 08:12 Harem wrote: flash and jaedong >> bisu i do not troll either
haha <3
dont get us started. You will never see the light, and you will never enjoy watching professional starcraft , if you are not a fan of KTY. As a matter of fact, I think all you Bisu haters are getting real life completely wrong
How can you 'deduct' that there is no game 5? I never metioned the scores, for all anyone knows, there couldn't even be a set 4, I could have been lying. My post did not spoil anything, unless you opened the spoiler, but even then you don't know who won.
Flash is so entertaining as he can play basically any start at the level impossible for me and many others. He is so versatile and yet so solid. That's why I find him incredibly entertaining. I don't want even to list memorable games involving Flash but there were tons and I'm 100% positive there will be lots of them in the future.
Considering it's obvious you don't like FlaSh, I'm surprised you didn't write this post about 2-3 years ago, when FlaSh came on to the scene. He had a "boring" (As you would categorize) style then, he still does.
How can you 'deduct' that there is no game 5? I never metioned the scores, for all anyone knows, there couldn't even be a set 4, I could have been lying. My post did not spoil anything, unless you opened the spoiler, but even then you don't know who won.
For anyone who hasn't watched any games, it automatically means
a) No one wins 3-0 b) if anyone wins 2-0, they will know before hand that the person will lose set 3.
If they both went 1-1, it would be all fine though, but this is taking into account someone who hasn't watched ANY game of the series, its a spoiler. Not a major one, but one nevertheless.
But enough about spoilers, back on topic, To each his own (even though I agree with the majority that the OP is just hating on SC just because his least liked player is owning it up) Kinda like how Marvel vs Capcom 2 has been "all figured out with top-tiers etc"
Every game has this one guy who thinks he's "enlightened" on how the game "isn't as good as its being made out to be" >_>
Great idea to write about hating starcraft in strarcraft site. It's more like hating Flash anyway. Reading the newest tlfe about Flash could make you like or respect him more.
On January 01 2010 17:37 fearus wrote: replays killed starcraft
agreed ! Funny thing is the only thing I usually do anymore is watch reps T_T... Every PvZ is same builds v same builds with even same sim citys everytime... Mad respects to players who play cheesy/not mainstream style such as octzerg, timothy etc !..
On January 02 2010 08:41 HeartOfTofu wrote: I think an interesting way to make Starcraft more fun to watch for the average person is to add a "minor league" type of system for so many of the 2nd stringers we see on the sidelines. I'm sure if you watch the lesser skilled people play, you'll often see a lot more of "old school Starcraft" in it.
Foreigner matches?
B-teamers might not be that interesting to watch though, I feel that it'd be just as much standard boring playing as with A-team pros, just a small bit worse, and without that excitement of important games.
Personally, I would love to see "foreigner" matches televised in a professional league. The truth is that the top foreigners do have playstyles that differ from Korean players and they tend to be more creative and varied. Whether it's because of different mechanical abilities or gaming environments, it would be refreshing to see people other than the typical Korean robots playing once in a while. I often find the games on the live user streams more interesting and unpredictable than most Korean pro games.
Can I have a good nuke mods? I love Boxer way too much to say no.
Also, in case I didn't mention it? Flash is cancer and TL is full of frothing fanboys who eat that shit up. Oh and people who like 'loli', aka cartoon child pornography, and think it should be legalized. Totally cool dudes, see the attached image for my reaction.
It's true Best's loss prompted me to write this - I couldn't sleep because it was nagging me, so I had to post it. I've felt this way for a fucking long ass time though. You're definitely correct in that JD is just as 'bad' as Flash is, however, he is at least somewhat charismatic, he has a much better understanding of how to communicate with fans and just plain being an ambassador of SC, just like Boxer was/is. That's why I like him. He has heart. And fuckin' sick dance moves.
Also lol'd at the PM I got from someone, I feel so offended that someone dares message me and call me a retard.
Happy new years, you delightful queers. I've had some good fucking food and wine. <:
Adios.
so you write a post about how flash is boring and defensive and mechanical in response to a game where he reads his opponent and does an allin timing rush to punish HIM for aiming for a long macro game?
Ups somebody got owned Bye Abyzou, we all had a good laugh. I bet you really would like to be nuked so people couldnt read anymore just how retarded your posts were
On January 01 2010 03:07 iNfeRnaL wrote: Imo this just depends a lot on the point of view. Personally I'm quite a good player but I can't help but to stare in awe at my monitor if Bisu/Jaedong/Flash/Stork are playing. They're just out of this world. Maybe Flash isn't all that characteristic, ya. But BISU!??!?! Fuck yea he is. Fucking cocky bitch that tends to underestimate opponents and looks pretty decent for an asian. Stork's silvers already made up their own character in Stork's psyche so you might as well call him a shizo... And Jaedong, well - he's Jaedong, kid is probably the incarnation of the word ballsy - add to it his death stare and yea, you've got Jaedong the motherfucker that's trashing every fucking other newbie around. Okay, except Flash from this statement as for recent results. Still. Lee motherfucking Jae Dong. k? kthx.
its not the game that you should hate, its the players. Most of them are completely uncharismatic. In icehockey you get all those fights and agitators aswell as those beautiful goals and classy winners. In starcraft all you get are those classy winners. (Well.. fbh isnt exactly a classy winner and bisu seems to be one cocky bitch, thats why people love them)
In short, there needs to be more bad manners on the field in order to appreciate the classy players.
What i would love to see, are not gamechanging strategies.. ofcourse i love to see baby harassing with wraiths and reach raping everything with dark archons.. but its not as important as the players themselves. I want to see progamers:
- Cockiness // Floyd Mayweather jr. is a fine example here, he got under opponents skin in boxing+ Show Spoiler +
- Moan and bitch // Christiano Ronaldo would be my example here, tons of physical football fans absolutely hate the guy, meanwhile some teenagers praise him to heavens.+ Show Spoiler +
- Throw some good winning poses, lift their hands and shout instead of just shyly bowing for the audience // Fatal1ty from FPshooters + Show Spoiler +
- Being complete assholes // Sean avery from hockey+ Show Spoiler +
- Last and by the far least, i want to see SOME players being completely calm and boring, like most of the current starcraft progamers are.
flash might be the most boring player ever.. but he's playing terran the way it was designed to be played (playing defensively to secure wins through a mineout when needed).
the games that some people loved or hated were : flash vs effort on destination// flash vs calm on fighting spirit // flash vs shuttle(?) on hbr. All involving massive defensive play with siege tanks. Personally, I hated those games but I can understand why people though that they were brilliant strategical plays by FlaSh, because they totally were too.
I'd say that what I hate most about starcraft is when you're trying to win a game and you have like 6-8 bases vs their 2-3, but they refuse to give up because they think they're boxer and can always pull off miraculous comebacks. Actually, it's mostly just terran players who does this and it hurts more when the maps it make easy for them (i.e. destination).
Please correct me if Im wrong but as I understand its not Flashs macro which differentiates him from the other players. Yes he has great macro but he doesn't have the best in the game. I dont think his apm is even near the highest. Im sure Calm had much higher Apm in their recent match. As I understand it the reason Flash is so good is his game sense. He has such a brilliant knowledge of the game that he knows exactly what to do in every situation. e.g. his last game versus Best.
This is his great skill, its highly entertaining to watch and it completely wrong for haters to just label him as a robot because its simply not true.
There are still so many other important elements to the game other than macro e.g. 60 kill Archon yesterday.
Also to those people who hate comebacks and camping. Personally I love epic comebacks and great defence and thats why I support and play Terran. Fair enough if thats not your style and you dont enjoy that but that just means you hate the Terran race because that is the style of Terran. That has nothing to do with Starcraft in general past or present.
IMO the problem is that the older players, and to an extent some newer players, understand the concept of fanservice. Players do something cool to provide entertainment to fans, and the fans return with adoration. For example, a reason why FBH is so well-liked is because he understands that concept. If I remember, he says he never really had a thing against savior, but was just providing entertainment for the viewers. Very few of the newer players do anything of the sort in my opinion. Of course, a player dominating the games and destroying everyone is cool too but meh.
I agree that strategies and build orders are so standardised that there is few innovation nowadays. To me, personally, I think the interesting things about watching Starcraft games are: 1. big scale skirmishes (LOL! It is always exciting to see which side has the last man standing) 2. micro battles (cannot help but be amazed at Bisu probes) 3. and those unforgettable "GEE GEEEEEE......."
And HEY! Being a player of the most baller game which withstood the test of time makes us all COOL! What's cooler than this bro? heehee...
I kinda agree with the OP. Starcraft just isn't the same anymore, and all the players play so alike. The personalities don't exist that much anymore and frankly I'm quite bored of watching a gazillion games played by no-names, on the same maps each and every week.
I guess the people who still love watching korean pro Starcraft with a passion, are the newer people on the scene.
Nostalgia is a powerful force. Watch the average game from 3 years ago - they are terrible. It's a similar thing people feel about TL. Read the average post from 3 years ago - it is also terrible.
have to say i liked sc b efore and still do, but i dont like flash's style so much... he turtles too much and yea i know when you try to abuse it he will attack... but still it doesnt make good games to watch... often eitehr players will kill themselves by trying to attack his mass camp style or he owns them with a huge army and great timing... alot of games just look like crap... sure he can sometimes make great comebacks with his turtle style, but it irritates me more than that it excites me >.< he has to be the dominant progamer i liked least of all times >_<
On January 05 2010 01:30 Chill wrote: Nostalgia is a powerful force. Watch the average game from 3 years ago - they are terrible. It's a similar thing people feel about TL. Read the average post from 3 years ago - it is also terrible.
On January 05 2010 02:54 Kaolla wrote: have to say i liked sc b efore and still do, but i dont like flash's style so much... he turtles too much and yea i know when you try to abuse it he will attack... but still it doesnt make good games to watch... often eitehr players will kill themselves by trying to attack his mass camp style or he owns them with a huge army and great timing... alot of games just look like crap... sure he can sometimes make great comebacks with his turtle style, but it irritates me more than that it excites me >.< he has to be the dominant progamer i liked least of all times >_<
Please tell me you're being sarcastic or something...
On December 31 2009 22:55 Abyzou wrote: Flash is, at the end of the day, a macrobot with perfect mechanics, and he doesn’t have heart like the star players of old did. He’s the best but that doesn’t really matter when it’s not entertaining.
I remember when he 3-0'd stork for the championship. His two armory push build was uncounterable for a long time. No one ever did that, and it proved that he was capable of coming up with his own ideals.
Every game that I watch from flash, I see him do all kinds of different game plays. I watched a TvT where he didnt start producing tanks (Stuck to vultures) until he claimed his third expand. He did such an excellent job, he came back and won a game the announcers said he was far behind in.
I've watched him marine/tank push against protoss, I've watched him siege line push, I've watched him single expand push, I've watched him wraith harass, and I've watched him drop against protoss. His game play style is never the same two times in a row, and thats why he is invincible... They dont know what he is going to do. Before flash came along, it was "tvp = tank/dragoon fights till no more minerals" and "tvz = marine/medic vs defilers". Flash introduced multible different builds to it. The zerg is now forced to know if he is going bio or mech. And then he could switch it up in a matter of seconds and go with mech.
Its sad to see that you cannot watch the game properly and see how awesome it is...
It's simple really. You want to play checkers, when the game has now evolved into chess. There is no right or wrong, but that's pretty much the long and short of it.
On January 05 2010 06:37 iargue wrote: [...] ...and "tvz = marine/medic vs defilers". Flash introduced multible different builds to it. The zerg is now forced to know if he is going bio or mech. [...]
Because it was Flash that introduced mech vZ, right? right?
On January 05 2010 06:37 iargue wrote: [...] ...and "tvz = marine/medic vs defilers". Flash introduced multible different builds to it. The zerg is now forced to know if he is going bio or mech. [...]
Because it was Flash that introduced mech vZ, right? right?
Although Upmagic and Fantasy were the ones that popularized mech builds, Flash used a mech build focused around critical mass and upgrades to kill Jaedong twice on Katrina, and this was way before the surge of mech builds. Flash is the only person to have beaten Jaedong on Katrina and he did it three times; all three times using very novel builds. Twice using mech at a time when nearly all TvZ games involved a variation of standard 1rax fe, and once using a 4port wraith build.
Why do we allow retards like the OP the privilege to post this kind of tripe? He obviously does not watch every recent SC game, nevermind all the Flash matches. There is still plenty of creativity in the game, and the recent Flash is far from being the late game macro mechanic player that he was last year. If anything his playstyle has been varied and innovative, especially versus other top players.
New maps every season also help alleviate the problem of the game being potentially "solved" by a certain player or race. Back when Zergs were dominating last year, why were you, the OP, not complaining as bitterly as now? The fact that not a single race has dominated an entire year in the last few years is just an amazing indication that the competition in this game is still alive and well.
If you are talking about Warcraft 3 scene however, then those arguments might be appropriate. There is almost no creativity in the playstyles over the past few years and the racial balance is just appalling, and the lack of new maps are all adversely affecting the game's competitiveness.
EPT
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