EPTIt might be to late for that, who knows, but whatever the case is I'm routing for you Jos!
Reality (Ret/Progaming) - Page 27
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Kenny
United States678 Posts
It might be to late for that, who knows, but whatever the case is I'm routing for you Jos! | ||
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Tom Phoenix
1114 Posts
Nobody is saying that B-teamers on eSTRO should play with Ret more then everyone else. However, if everyone else in eSTRO gets to play with everyone else, it is only right that Ret gets to play with them as well. Even if they cannot discuss strategy with him, at least he will have the benefit of being able to analyze his replays. Nobody is saying Ret shouldn`t learn Korean. But if he never gets engaged in conversations (or attempts of conversations), he will never learn the language. You can`t expect him to learn Korean by being isolated from everyone else. Lastly, nobody expects eSTRO on focusing on Ret to get better. However, if he cannot even partially reap the benefits of professional training, he will never get better. What is the point of even recruiting him if you do not want him to get better? Seriously, I am tired of seeing arguments that seem to claim that Ret being completely ignored is somehow the right thing. IdrA is the living proof that one can get better through professional training, in spite of the racism and language barrier. Call it culture, call it racism, call it xenophobia...nothing can justify eSTRO B-teamers shunning Ret. He is their teammate, regardless where he is from. What kind of solidarity and team spirit is that when you intentionally refuse to play with your own teammate? That is not equal treatment, that is "special" treatment in the very negative sense of the word. I agree that Ret should not be treated special simply beacuse he is a foreigner. He DOES, however, deserve to be treated like everyone else. Being shunned by your teammates is not what I would call being treated equally. | ||
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KameZerg
Sweden1769 Posts
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DoX.)
Singapore6164 Posts
On December 29 2009 23:56 ICanFlyLow wrote: To long. Did not read. thats just too cool man | ||
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Arkanis
Italy37 Posts
On December 29 2009 23:26 Tom Phoenix wrote: There is something that I do not understand about some of the" anti-special treatment" arguments that were made in this thread. How is expecting equal treatment considered "special" treatment? Nobody is saying that B-teamers on eSTRO should play with Ret more then everyone else. However, if everyone else in eSTRO gets to play with everyone else, it is only right that Ret gets to play with them as well. Even if they cannot discuss strategy with him, at least he will have the benefit of being able to analyze his replays. Nobody is saying Ret shouldn`t learn Korean. But if he never gets engaged in conversations (or attempts of conversations), he will never learn the language. You can`t expect him to learn Korean by being isolated from everyone else. Lastly, nobody expects eSTRO on focusing on Ret to get better. However, if he cannot even partially reap the benefits of professional training, he will never get better. What is the point of even recruiting him if you do not want him to get better? Seriously, I am tired of seeing arguments that seem to claim that Ret being completely ignored is somehow the right thing. IdrA is the living proof that one can get better through professional training, in spite of the racism and language barrier. Call it culture, call it racism, call it xenophobia...nothing can justify eSTRO B-teamers shunning Ret. He is their teammate, regardless where he is from. What kind of solidarity and team spirit is that when you intentionally refuse to play with your own teammate? That is not equal treatment, that is "special" treatment in the very negative sense of the word. I agree that Ret should not be treated special simply beacuse he is a foreigner. He DOES, however, deserve to be treated like everyone else. Being shunned by your teammates is not what I would call being treated equally. About language i want to let u think about one thing: you ever play for 14 hours in one day? no stop gaming and make a break only for lunch and dinner? u think ret has yet some strenght to learn korean?i dont think so, also for other players they dont want waste time to teach language to Ret cause if they waste time to practice/sleep or something else they never get better. When you are a b-teamers you become selfish and you have only one task in your mind: become a A-team member. ( dont think bad about selfishness...i know they become friends but there is always a "hidden rivalry" between them ) I think that would be a better solution i Jos had learn some korean before start for his trip; Idra already told about this language difficulty and Nony too. i hope you understand my lame english =/ I think Jos take in a too easy way this adventure in Korea... | ||
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MageKirby
United States535 Posts
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
So, even idrA is really bm, i really hope he does really really well in Korea only to see him pawn koreans to death. Reality is hard some times. | ||
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SkepTicAL
Canada872 Posts
On December 29 2009 21:44 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote: so between courage #1 and courage #2 his worst match up switched from ZvT to ZvZ? Ya kenny you fucked up a bit lol  . He lost ZvT in the first one, probly his middle m/u. | ||
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Glaucus
479 Posts
I get a feeling he also didn't have to do the chores all other low ranking player have to do. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8078 Posts
On December 29 2009 23:26 Tom Phoenix wrote: There is something that I do not understand about some of the" anti-special treatment" arguments that were made in this thread. How is expecting equal treatment considered "special" treatment? Nobody is saying that B-teamers on eSTRO should play with Ret more then everyone else. However, if everyone else in eSTRO gets to play with everyone else, it is only right that Ret gets to play with them as well. Even if they cannot discuss strategy with him, at least he will have the benefit of being able to analyze his replays. Nobody is saying Ret shouldn`t learn Korean. But if he never gets engaged in conversations (or attempts of conversations), he will never learn the language. You can`t expect him to learn Korean by being isolated from everyone else. Lastly, nobody expects eSTRO on focusing on Ret to get better. However, if he cannot even partially reap the benefits of professional training, he will never get better. What is the point of even recruiting him if you do not want him to get better? Seriously, I am tired of seeing arguments that seem to claim that Ret being completely ignored is somehow the right thing. IdrA is the living proof that one can get better through professional training, in spite of the racism and language barrier. Call it culture, call it racism, call it xenophobia...nothing can justify eSTRO B-teamers shunning Ret. He is their teammate, regardless where he is from. What kind of solidarity and team spirit is that when you intentionally refuse to play with your own teammate? That is not equal treatment, that is "special" treatment in the very negative sense of the word. I agree that Ret should not be treated special simply beacuse he is a foreigner. He DOES, however, deserve to be treated like everyone else. Being shunned by your teammates is not what I would call being treated equally. Why do you exepct solidarity from introvert 17 yo koreans kids whose only objective is to be better than their teammate in order to get to the A team, the only thing which may worth losing years of your life living like a zombie in front of your screen playing a video game? Have to be realistic, a little bit. | ||
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
On December 30 2009 01:29 MageKirby wrote: Wait, so these people went to korea to live there without learning how to even speak the language in a casual sense? Whoa...... I doubt he even knows the alphabet, which is a problem when you go to a different country. On December 29 2009 17:49 mahrgell wrote: thanks, you saved me a lot of writing time ^^ I really don't understand why everyone here expects ret to be treated in a special way... No Korean, who plays like him, would be even allowed in the progaming house... It is not like his 'mates' play against other korean dudes equally weak (from their point of view) instead of ret... And why the fuck do >>>IN KOREA tenplus KOREANS<<< have to speak ENGLISH with the ONE foreign dude, instead of him learning KOREAN??? Lol??? maybe it doesn't fit in you mind, but no, not the whole world is centered about the english language... There is no f... reason for a group of koreans in Korea to learn/use english, because their is ONE foreigner... Maybe on TL ret is a superstar... but in korea he is just one out of hundreds of ppl trying to be progamer, and he is by far not strong enough to be noticed there... If he wouldn't be a foreigner he would be completly ignored, like this he gets almost completly ignored... I don't see any racism in here... I see more racism in the expectations here, that every korean has to speak english with him instead of him speaking korean with them ^^ Agreed. Why should they bow to his wishes? He's the one looking to gain from this situation. Estro does not need ret. On December 29 2009 16:17 PrideNeverDies wrote: the difference between korean racism and racism around the world is that korean culture doesn't condemn racism but accepts it and indirectly promotes it in korean law and in the minds of its citizens. that is why the new generations of koreans who live in korea still have the same mindset due to the institutional policies set in place. it takes living in a different culture and location for koreans to realize that their subtle actions are wrong and racist. if they lived in korea, the small racist things they do wouldn't even be noticed. Your expectations are more racist in my opinion. This is exactly the kind of mindset that leads to the acceptance of the American Empire in everything but name. Korea is almost 100% Korean. If you go to Korea, you're a guest at best and a parasite at worst. If you go to a different country, learn the language, and the culture before going, at the very least. It's not their job to bow to your whims, it's your job to assimilate into the culture. If you don't like it, tough shit, it's not like your arrival was the second coming of Jesus. It's the same thing as Muslims building minarets in Switzerland. | ||
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AM.23)Jehuty
United States69 Posts
I was so excited to read rekruls post... because it really opens up people's minds especially the 20 and younger crowd we have here because alot of them dont know what its like to earn their own dollar and most of what they say is just newb ish... (Im 26, Married, And have a Great job) ... but I can see how the koreans act exactly how he potrays them for example look at Tossgirls most recent interview about how she cried when she lost to IdRA (Koreans really look at Foreigners as inferior to them..... but i can also see them opening up to someone they can communicate with. All in all i say if you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to be a successfull pro-gamer... 1) Learn Basic Language of the country your going 2) Be freaking Beyond GoSu 3) Wait till starcraft 2 comes out before you make the move if its SC that your going for. 4) Have a decent bank account of your own... these are things people really need to look at!! Have fun and GG Am.23)Jehuty aka O-MeGaMerc ICCUPID | ||
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iD.NicKy
France767 Posts
On December 28 2009 06:45 Chill wrote: Agreed on every point. Actually, even though it's public knowledge, I never knew how progaming actually worked until I was in Korea. You don't have a life. You follow their schedule, day in, day out, for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's not exciting to live in Korea because you can't fucking talk to anyone because they don't speak English, you don't have time to learn Korean, and you don't have time to actually step outside and see any of Seoul. If anything, Idra deserves ridiculous amounts of credit for doing what he's done for so long. I know I wouldn't last 3 days. I'm completely serious. Hey Chill ! still in korea ? I've been in korea for 3 weeks in October, i could visit estro house thanks to artosis, they are really close to slaves ... I couldn't believe they didn't let ret visit seoul for his first days in korea (he had no computer, he had to stay in estro house doing .. nothing). BUT visiting korea for holidays was beyond my expectations ! I had really great fun in gangnam ~every night thanks to dan <3, nick/amarisse & his buddies matt & scott, jamie & susie, rekrul, chill, etc hwannie great guy but works too much for my french standards at least  PS : i didn't play a single after my trip in korea .. guess why ... ahah .. p oker and SF4 for now.. | ||
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dcberkeley
Canada844 Posts
On December 29 2009 23:26 Tom Phoenix wrote: There is something that I do not understand about some of the" anti-special treatment" arguments that were made in this thread. How is expecting equal treatment considered "special" treatment? Nobody is saying that B-teamers on eSTRO should play with Ret more then everyone else. However, if everyone else in eSTRO gets to play with everyone else, it is only right that Ret gets to play with them as well. Even if they cannot discuss strategy with him, at least he will have the benefit of being able to analyze his replays. Nobody is saying Ret shouldn`t learn Korean. But if he never gets engaged in conversations (or attempts of conversations), he will never learn the language. You can`t expect him to learn Korean by being isolated from everyone else. Lastly, nobody expects eSTRO on focusing on Ret to get better. However, if he cannot even partially reap the benefits of professional training, he will never get better. What is the point of even recruiting him if you do not want him to get better? Seriously, I am tired of seeing arguments that seem to claim that Ret being completely ignored is somehow the right thing. IdrA is the living proof that one can get better through professional training, in spite of the racism and language barrier. Call it culture, call it racism, call it xenophobia...nothing can justify eSTRO B-teamers shunning Ret. He is their teammate, regardless where he is from. What kind of solidarity and team spirit is that when you intentionally refuse to play with your own teammate? That is not equal treatment, that is "special" treatment in the very negative sense of the word. I agree that Ret should not be treated special simply beacuse he is a foreigner. He DOES, however, deserve to be treated like everyone else. Being shunned by your teammates is not what I would call being treated equally. The way I see it, you make your own opportunities or you leave. I don't think he was shunned, he just wasn't paid any attention to. And why should they? There's no obligations for the players or coaches to care. And I don't think he deserves to be treated like anyone else. Joining the team doesn't mean he gets to practice with everyone else. He still has to make friends and line up practice partners himself. And yes, he has zero opportunity to do so, because he doesn't speak the language. But then, again, that's his problem, not theirs. I'm still cheering for you Ret. | ||
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Glaucus
479 Posts
Ret didn't even know why they refused to play him. If the coach was like "Ok Ret, most players don't want to play you because you are not good and you can't discuss the game. But give it some time. Do well in courage, get prize money in TSL2 and buy them dinner and they will play. Then they will start to play with you." If Estro players didn't want to play him because he's chubby, old, not American, white and they don't want to be shamed by losing to a non-Korean, etc then eStro shouldn't even invite nonKoreans. Ret gave up a year of education for them. If he isn't even welcome then that's just very poor hospitality. Now if Ret was lazy and broke schedule all the time and made unfair requests all the time, fine. But Ret was there to grind away. But yeah it's probably a power struggle. These foreign players are forced down estro's throat by IEG. Estro doesn't want them because it disrupts their team. So they do nothing which is like bullying them away. It's like "lololol IEG got another foreign player. He is going to waste his time probably. We won't allow him to take Korean lessons, players won't want to play him. We won't do anything to make him feel welcome. We will treat him like a slave just a bit more than we do with the Koreans but he won't receive our support. He will fail, haha." But I think Ret didn't try hard enough. He could have seen on TL which eStro B teamers were up against zergs. He could get a translator and ask them "You play zerg. You play Eu Yoon Su. I help. Game?" and in the mean time he should just have build up a list of practice partners. He could still play with many foreigners and with korean amateurs. Now if nothing changed after he won Courage after 6 tries and CJ wanted to take him, sure then you can go home. | ||
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Cyrox
Sweden147 Posts
Dont be serious as shit and thinking you let yourself down or anything with the Courage results. Whatever happends it's not the end of the world. glhf | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On December 30 2009 01:48 AM.23)Jehuty wrote: I personally think that anybody who wants to go to a different country and be a professional progamer or whatever would be wise enough to learn the basics of the language .... I mean i understand certain circumstances but lets be real... if you somewhat remotely know another country's language people will be more open to speak with you because of the fact you can communicate with them. There will obviously be a culture barrier but communication can break most barrier's.... Imagine you go to Korea and know how to speak the basic language or the basic terms to be a progamer... dont you think they would respect the fact that you are trying to be a team player by learning their language that way you can communicate with them and maybe win over their favor since you seem to want to know about them more... if i could speak korean and im an already outgoing person.. i would be there trying to make them laugh by making a fool of myself and just complementing them on their gameplay and their hard work... that in itself will go a long way. thats not entirely fair, he didnt have much time before moving out here to learn the language since he had to come in time for ief, and for most people its very hard to learn a language by submersion when you have no framework to build on. and with korean you really do have no framework since its not related to any of the languages he speaks. ya, it would be very good to study it, but you have to keep in mind that you have maybe 3-4 hours of free time a day in which you also have to eat and do stuff. and you dont get enough sleep at night so most players nap during free time as well. its really not all that practical unless the team agrees to let you take some time out of practice for classes. | ||
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SixSongs
Poland1455 Posts
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ilbh
Brazil1606 Posts
On December 29 2009 04:01 ret wrote: I definately still believe it can be done in Korea. I don't want to make excuses or anything, but there are guys who won their courage group this past weekend that I have played a lot with online and I had huge winning records on them. (T/P users). And I know other foreigners would do well vs them also. But for me personally, age is a huge factor like some people here pointed out. If I was younger, I wouldn't even think twice about what to do and just keep trying my best and eventually win courage and just keep trying. But yes I am quite old, so wasting time would be bad, and with SC2 coming out I don't know how feasible it is to stay. I think someone like Kolll (very young, already very good, and not yet ruined by all the freedom you get after high school :p) would succeed here quite easily. I absolutely hate the fact that I 'failed' however, and it just hurts more to see players worse than you do well. Maybe I should try one more time D: I just can't believe that after all rekrul said and after all that happened to you, you still come here to brag about some wins over people who won the courage and say that you are a better player than idra and it makes you sad to see him doing well... You should be amazed that idra is doing well, you should copy every aspect of idra's life. he is not doing well just because he is good at SC, there is a lot of factors behind... read read and re-read rekrul post. You are white, a foreigner, don't speak korean, is a "big" person, you don't play ZvZ and you don't have the korean personality... also the fact that you won one game against idra doesn't mean you are a better player. to be a better player you need consistent results, accomplishment, discipline, patience to sit and repeat the same strategy over and over to become a robot, etc. idra was the most hated person in the entire community, to become what he is now after all the hate... its not because his trolling is fun... | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8078 Posts
On December 30 2009 02:16 IdrA wrote: thats not entirely fair, he didnt have much time before moving out here to learn the language since he had to come in time for ief, and for most people its very hard to learn a language by submersion when you have no framework to build on. and with korean you really do have no framework since its not related to any of the languages he speaks. ya, it would be very good to study it, but you have to keep in mind that you have maybe 3-4 hours of free time a day in which you also have to eat and do stuff. and you dont get enough sleep at night so most players nap during free time as well. its really not all that practical unless the team agrees to let you take some time out of practice for classes. Problem being it's horrendously difficult to learn a language so different if you don't have some basics. How did you manage, Idra? How long did it take you? | ||
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