Reality (Ret/Progaming) - Page 26

On December 29 2009 07:35 Chill wrote:

Ok. So who are you to judge someone for what they do? You're saying what he is doing has no value and now you agree it has value? So he's following his dream and gaining value, I see zero problems here.

On December 29 2009 10:16 intrudor wrote:
Lets fuckin face it people; Korea is, by western standards, pretty damn racist. Call it culture, call it xenophobia, but thats the bottom line. No matter how politically correct you want to be, how many analogies you want to use, or how carefully designed your euphemisms are, koreans are racists. Im not saying that racism is absent in the US/Euro zone. it's just that some countries are more racists than others. There is a reason why the observed frequency of football fans throwing bananas to black players is higher in say, Italy and Spain, than in Britain or France. Everything is relative. Everyone is equal but some are more equal than others. Every country is equally racist but some are more racist than others.

There are 2 types of racism, i'd say. Number 1 is just outright racism where you yell slurs at indonesian/pakistani/ppl from poor asian countries/blacks..etc.. in a fucking bus downtown Seoul NYTimes Article.

Number 2 is more applicable at Americans/whites/caucasians..etc.. while not exactly outright racism, i'd call it xenophobia. defined as "a dislike and/or fear of that which is unknown or different from oneself." Not as bad as number 1, but still clearly not an appropriate way to treat people.

In Ret's case, i don't know if xenophobia was a a determinant factor, but a lot of things just don't fucking make sense.

1. We're in 2009. Sc has been released 12 years ago. Progaming has been going on for a while. A few foreigners tried to become pros and with the exception of Idra (im excluding Grrrr..Elky..etc..because their era was way too early) they all went home because the working conditions were not adequate. Artosis is the most knowledgeable white dude in Korea when it comes to progaming AND he has mad connections AND he is pretty much the liaison between aspiring foreign pros and pro-teams. Now, is it fair to say that some major miscommunication occurred when Ret was negotiating with Estro to go to Korea? If he KNEW that his freaking teammates would be sure to totally ignore him and decline to play even just a few games with him, would he have accepted to go and accept the moronic fact; bah i guess im just gonna play iCCup. no big deal. (sorry to burst anyone's bubble but iccup-only type of training is lightyears away from pro-training). If NOT playing a foreign teammate is proper etiquette, why didn't guys like Artosis alert Ret before moving to Korea? Artosis knows exactly what happened to Nony and Draco..etc. Miscommunication or is Estro being suddenly xenophobic?

2. Ignoring this Dutch dude who lives in your Pro-House?! wtf. Progamers play an absurd amount of hours each day. From this, an intelligent person will conclude that an absurd amount of games is being played between each progamer. Now, pro-training tells us that after each games, it's always better if you go over your replays and you discuss strategy. Great. Does that mean that Ret HAS to be ignored since he can't participate in complex strategic discussions after each games? How about this, lets say Korean Progamer X plays 50 games a day. Is it reasonable for the Estro manager to ask him to play 48 games strictly against korean opponents and during the course of the day, to force him to play vs some dude from Holland since he's part of the team too. That way, this Korean Progamer X will be able to discuss strategy and go over replays 48 times. That's a 96% ratio. 4% of the time, he won't be able to discuss strategy because his english is too limited and the dude from Holland doesn't speak korean. But who cares since he's chobo anyways because he's not korean so it's pointless to discuss strategy with him. But since the same 2 games are expected from every team member, Ret will find himself playing 2 games times whatever the number of pro-koreans living in the house is. Which in a perfect world would add up to like 30 games a day. The rest of the time, he still has iCCup and he can fill in holes by analyzing replays. That's much closer to a real pro-training.

3. Are strategic discussions between Ret and coaches/managers/players etc.. totally fucking impossible? Give me a break. Not all korean progamers are totally unable to speak english. Even if it'll never be as deep as a fluent vs fluent strategic analysis, you can still work your way around it and and at least put a very minimal effort to have some sort of basic interaction. i mean, fucking units names are the same in both languages, a tank is a fuckin tank. a zergling is a fucking zerlings. Just say things; Jos! your timing push is tooooo late ..tooo late. or...vs Mech...more zerglings... your 3rd expo....tooooo soon... your defilers...tooo late..., always killllll reaver first!! etc... by getting used to it, both parties will get better at it. Discussions will be basic at first..but then both parties will get to know each other, Ret will pick up a few korean words along the way, and koreans should at least feel a bit excited since they can practice some english (hey its only the international lingua franca..so who cares) if you guys think that this can't be done, you should download the Mondragon vs Sea[Shield] replay on fighting spirit where Mondragon, Ret ...and some other foreigners talk with Sea Shield about football(soccer). again..im NOT saying every Estro member is as cool..as skilled, as handsome, as friendly..and as good in english as SeaShield..but it gives you an indication of what type of conversations are possible.


i dont know if he took his decision yet but honestly, i hope Ret stays for at least some time to really sort things out and to really decide if his dream is humanely possible or not. The ONLY way to do that is to first and foremost to TALK TO HWANNI, THE ESTRO MANAGER (that he himself described as "really nice guy"), AND TO EXPLAIN HIM HIS SITUATION AND HOW PLAYING ICCUP-ONLY IS ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT. and then to practice his fucking ass off. If he can survive in the most intensely competitive gaming circuit in the history of the universe, he'll be a monster when he comes back to Holland to pursue whatever endeavors he feels like. Everything else will feel like a piece of cake.

GL Jos!

On December 29 2009 17:15 AsianEcksDragon wrote:


1. If I am to take a bet, I'd say that Artosis and all of them guys who organized it knew about the adverse condition but their personal fantasy of even a small chance to see a foreigner succeed was so strong, they went along with it. In fact, anyone'd be a fool to think that they got ret to do anything but scrubbing toilets. Call them racist if you will. The reality is that they don't give a rat's ass about any new foreign guy in Korea nearly as much as you guys do and they certainly won't go out of their ways of speaking another language or deviating from the culture to accommodate his needs. Their house, their rules - even if it's unfair.

2. Is it so fucking unreasonable to think that if they have 30 minutes to spare, they'd rather take a break from their stressful 10 hour practice than waste it playing with a noob whom they have no way of communicating?

3. Of course it's not impossible. Except they'd rather have him learn and speak korean. In an ideal world, everyone would be helpful to each other and try their hardest to fulfill everyone's needs. The only problem is....we don't live in an ideal world. If ret wants to make it big, he'd have to overcome these disadvantages and just continue playing.

On December 29 2009 04:01 ret wrote:
I definately still believe it can be done in Korea.

I don't want to make excuses or anything, but there are guys who won their courage group this past weekend that I have played a lot with online and I had huge winning records on them. (T/P users). And I know other foreigners would do well vs them also.

But for me personally, age is a huge factor like some people here pointed out. If I was younger, I wouldn't even think twice about what to do and just keep trying my best and eventually win courage and just keep trying. But yes I am quite old, so wasting time would be bad, and with SC2 coming out I don't know how feasible it is to stay. I think someone like Kolll (very young, already very good, and not yet ruined by all the freedom you get after high school :p) would succeed here quite easily. I absolutely hate the fact that I 'failed' however, and it just hurts more to see players worse than you do well. Maybe I should try one more time D:

On December 29 2009 16:01 jalstar wrote:
RET RETIRED???

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/980_Ret

On December 29 2009 16:30 lynx.oblige wrote:
Well, they do live near lots and lots of asians. :O Not that it makes it okay, but understable as they are completely surrounded by other asian countries.

On December 29 2009 19:01 wifebeater wrote:


what? RET'S RETired??? LOL

On December 29 2009 19:53 jalstar wrote:


i have to admit that pun escaped me.

but is he really retired?

On December 29 2009 21:25 Kenny wrote:
First courage- loses to the guy in his WORST mu that went on to win that courage

Second courage- barely loses to another zerg in his worst mu that he took a game off, almost 2.

On December 29 2009 21:44 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:


so between courage #1 and courage #2 his worst match up switched from ZvT to ZvZ?

These guys Ret are playing are like A-/A Koreans on Iccup. If he was streaming and took a game off of one of them you would call him sick. I stand behind Jos 100% and hope he keeps trying because I believe when he sets his mind to something, he gets it done.