All of you throwing around your opinions about this situation and saying 'blah blah fk estro' or 'can't IdrA get ret on cj!?' are making me want to puke. You are all so fucking stupid its hilarious. Even with the limited information you guys have on the situation you're all still completely unable to assess the situation even slightly correctly.
First of all, the reason why Ret got on Estro in the first place is only because of Hwanni, Artosis, and maybe a few others like some people who are high up in IEG etc (and himself of course!). The actual team estro and the players on it have absolutely no reason to give a fuck. It's funny how you people say things like 'they should be supporting ret!' Sure in a perfect world with super cool players on the team thats what it would be like and none of the problems that caused Ret to get banned from the team would have happened.
But thats not the reality. You can't imagine what it's like to be a progamer in Korea right now. Nony acted like he was fully aware and seemed ready but he obviously wasn't even close to ready. Ret had no idea what he was getting himself into. The reality of these teams is this: Koreans do not think like foreigners at all. They have a set schedule and even if you make some request to break this schedule and your request makes complete sense logically and fundamentally they just won't break or bend their team routine/rules in any way whatsoever especially not for some newbie foreigner who just joined their team. It's just the way koreans are...you either conform to their standards or you get the fuck out. This is something almost impossible for non-koreans to grasp and is why Idra was able to get along so well after a while...his personality and lifestyle conforms exactly to what they want. He's quiet, mild mannered (except online LOL), and just sits there in his chair playing games all fucking day. He doesn't cause problems in any way. They like this. Nony was having some problems right away with the intensive training schedule and was making requests to estro saying he wants a bit more free time and less playing hours etc or some shit like that. BIG NONO. When you join a Korean team you are there for them, they are not there for you. Of course that does not fit a western mentality but in the progaming world there are far too many upcoming players, and the competition is so intense for them to actually focus their dedication on any player except for a star player. It's up to the newb players to impress them and do what they want. And saying they should try a bit more to help him out because he's non korean is just as retardedly racist as saying they are racist for not helping him.
Koreans are fucking xenophobic as fuck. They are not happy go lucky to foreigners at all (unless they speak korean or are drinking with them lol!). Once you join their team they are going to continue with their business and ignore you unless you manage to make actual friends with them somehow. I can imagine what it was like for Ret right now he'd ask a guy "Go game?!" which is probably the only communication he could really muster with them and they'd make up some gay excuse or simply say no. It's quite disheartening after a while and I imagine after a while Ret simply gave up even trying (that or he wasn't even on the team long enough for that to happen). The reason why it was a bit easier for Nony is he has a very open outgoing social smiley personality and that is something that Koreans will open up to. It's a very rare quality to be that kind of person AND be able to stand sitting in a chair slaving away playing a game 14 hours a day at the same time. I don't even think Nony had that. We'll never know how it would have turned out though because he made the wise decision to put his real life (congrats on marriage nony) above that of a life of slavery. Koreans are also superficial as hell. They are probably the most judgemental culture I've ever seen. They care about the way you look. They care about the way you carry yourself. If you're too different from them they will simply shy away. It's no secret that Ret is a big guy and yes you might say "rekrul ur an asshole for saying that" but believe me, as someone who has lived in Korea for over 6 years I guarantee you this did play a definite part in why the people on estro 'mistreated' ret. When they look at him I know exactly what they think: They think 'ahhh white slob.' It's just the way Koreans are. 3-4 years ago I was 90 KG's and people always reacted to well to me no matter what girls or guys. Now I'm 104 kgs the fattest I've ever been in my life and believe me I can feel a huge difference in the way I am treated in general. Not that I give a fuck because I'm mother fucking rekrul, but it's just a noticable difference that I see and I find it quite interesting actually. (for those wondering after new years I'm going USA for 6 months (FOR REAL THIS TIME LOL) to stop being alcoholic and hit gym/poker for 6 months in peace.)
As for the players and the managers 'mistreating' Ret. WTF. I not gunna go into detail in this post about any of the little reasons why estro wanted ret out or why ret felt uncomfortable due to the way the koreans were acting as that information is at his own disgression to give out or not, but believe me there were many many things causing problems from both ends. But imagine this: You're on one of the lower tier pro-teams in the most intensely competitive pro-gaming circuits in the entire world by far (the only one actually lol). You're a player slaving away all day every day grinding it out only eating fucking rice and some stupid fucking microwavable chicken having no life being a complete slave with minor freedom and not making any money and have no education and ur hoping to play the best players you can to slowly grind up your skill level and hopefully if you're talented and lucky enough you make it to A-team then finally get in the big show. Are you really going to want to play games against some non-korean newbie who just joined your team and you can't even communicate with or are you going to keep playing against your gosu practice partners with whom you can actually discuss things and go over replays with without having fucking non stop awkward 'how the fuck do i communicate fuck fuck' moments. OBVIOUSLY you'd rather stick to playing your Koreans. Now imagine you're a manager/coach and at first you try and be nice and helpful and tell your players to play this guy. These are players that you've been working with for a long time and are your fellow koreans. Then your players start coming to you with complaints about the person or his lack of ability etc and saying they don't want to play him. Then you want to help him but then you realize you can't even communicate to help him with his strats. After a while you're just gunna be like 'fuck it fine don't play him do whatever you want' to the other players. Obviously, thats not ideal, and its definitely not how I woulud run my show; I'd fucking get out my KTF baseball bat and tell them in that case play him 5 games right now if you lose a single game you're getting the fucking beats. But thats just me, and thats a perfect world. This is not me, this is koreans and their koreans way, in a very imperfect progaming world that turns it's players into slaves.
I don't even know why someone would try to come to Korea and play starcraft 1 right now at all. It's a complete waste of time. I know people like Artosis like to advocate that you have to play starcraft1 a lot to improve your chances of becoming good at starcraft2. But he's dead wrong...he not exactly an unintelligent person, but sometimes he has mental blocks that cause him to do stupid things like play only one race for 11 years straight instead of dabbling a little in zerg or toss. Whether or not you'll be good at starcraft2 relies on how much effort you put when SC2 comes out and how talented you are. Sure it helps to understand RTS games and starcraft immensley but you can do this from ur own home on ICCUP and accomplish the same result. You don't need to divert from your current lifestyle and fly to a brand new country to be a slave to accomplish this result. So no, SC2 skill is NOT a reason to become a progamer.
You might also say "Hey but it's always great it's an adventure to a new country!" Thats not what it is. You're going to be a slave. Either you're a rich kid and too much of a brat to conform to the koreans (Draco), or you're just too outgoing to become a gaming slave to the koreans/care more about ur real life (wife(nony)), or you do not conform to what they want you to act like (Ret). This is why all these players had problems and eventually gave up (I'm assuming this is the end of the road for Ret in korea for SC1 right now). It's simply not an adventure. It's slavery with a few breaks out on the town with the nerd crew in kangnam having some beers outside 7-11's unless Rekrul decides to show up and play the robin hood role. A real adventure to Korea would involve a few week vacation, or working there with a real job and studying Korean. Not slaving away in a smelly progamer house.
There are only two things to be gained from being a starcraft1 player in Korea right now. One is that you'll establish yourself on a team and will be in a good social position for when SC2 comes out and will be open to many possibilities in the future due to connections and fame later on. Another is that you'll be the best foreigner and can make a bit of cash in the foreign competitions. Those are the only two real good reasons. It's just far too tough of a life here.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not judging idra ret etc or anyones decision to come to Korea and be a progamer...to each his own but it's just not an intelligent life decision for most people. It's just too hard in so many aspects. If you think you have the skill then wait for SC2 and do some other more intelligent things in the meantime instead of wasting ur time in a slave camp. Idra came at the right time and got lucky in many ways to be on CJ and had the right conforming personality so it was great for him...but for Nony a guy who was engaged or Ret a guy with a GF and who was going to school and who was a ZvT, ZvP, TvZ player? Gimme a break. How the fuck can you come to korea when you don't even play zvz yet!!! Once again anyone can do whatever the fuck they want with their lives and I don't judge anyone for anything but it's just not something a wise person would try to do especially when they have a life outside of the game.
The downsides just too far outweigh the upsides for most people.
And for those of you saying "idra can't you put in a good word for ret?" CJ does not give a fuck what Idra thinks. They will ask everyone at estro their exact opinions etc etc etc and obviously these estro players are not going to be saying anything that will make CJ want to take Ret. Now, I'm not totally sure about this...it's possible CJ has room for him and enough money etc. and simply don't give a fuck and can let him on...but with all the trouble so far and two first round courage losses I'd be willing to bet a lot of money and give odds that he doesn't get on that team lol.
Either you say Ret and estro are equally at big fault each or neither are at fault...it just wasn't meant to be, same difference same result.
Don't come to korea hoping to be a progamer. Because you're gunna waste your time. But if you're stupid enough to come I'll still be there for you
Good post, Rekrul. Definitely gives some insight to those who are entirely in the dark, and still taking a side. I hope that whatever Ret decides to do works out for him, and I'll support him either way, but what you said about it not being a smart decision for most to stay there makes sense.
Would have been great to see Ret win Courage and get on a team, then own face, but that isn't realistically going to happen. It's really a shame he's been out of the eStro house for awhile now, and only really practicing at home/ICCUP (as far as I understand it), as it's not really giving him more of an advantage for TSL2, since he may be playing more, but it's not with the pros.
On December 28 2009 06:36 mrgerry wrote: I thought he was back in the house or at least he was in the last courage video. Would be nice to see an update on that.
Anyways, nice read as fek said, gives a nice insight on what's going on over there and I always enjoy a read from the mother fucking Rekrul lol
He posted in the Courage thread that he was out of the house, and has been for awhile. Things just didn't work out between him and the team.
The competition will only increase and the top gamers will have less time to practice with foreigners due to additional strategic planning required (maps, units, build orders etc).
The culture and communication barriers will never change and you therefore end up with foreigners in a very similar situation.
You would need to stick it out like Idra, Leg and others to have a chance. Each individual person makes that choice.
That was a really good read. Sadly, everything Rekrul said about Korean culture and their views towards others and how people present themselves is pretty much true. Anyway, best of luck to Ret.
Actually, even though it's public knowledge, I never knew how progaming actually worked until I was in Korea. You don't have a life. You follow their schedule, day in, day out, for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's not exciting to live in Korea because you can't fucking talk to anyone because they don't speak English, you don't have time to learn Korean, and you don't have time to actually step outside and see any of Seoul.
If anything, Idra deserves ridiculous amounts of credit for doing what he's done for so long. I know I wouldn't last 3 days. I'm completely serious.
i kind of thought it was over-ambitious to go to korea with the goal of going pro when SC2 is announced and probably coming out next year. it would be released long before someone could work their way up to the A team ;/
Wasting another post towards 1k to post here but I simply had to:
first of all great post rek, but I have a question: you say this has alot to do with korean culture and how they want to fall in line, but couldn't it also be because korea can be a very racist country towards white people in general? (I remember reading this somewhere, might even have been you who wrote it).
ninjaedit: I'll also add that I dont really see where you're harsh on ret as mentioned before? Was it the part about him being "a big guy"? didnt really strike me as harsh
On December 28 2009 06:45 Chill wrote: Agreed on every point.
Actually, even though it's public knowledge, I never knew how progaming actually worked until I was in Korea. You don't have a life. You follow their schedule, day in, day out, for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's not exciting to live in Korea because you can't fucking talk to anyone because they don't speak English, you don't have time to learn Korean, and you don't have time to actually step outside and see any of Seoul.
If anything, Idra deserves ridiculous amounts of credit for doing what he's done for so long. I know I wouldn't last 3 days. I'm completely serious.
Also I agree with Chill. I also want to add that I think ret deserves mad respect for his decision to quit eSTRO, when he realized thats not the dream he wanted to live.
Now that i know a little more about how things are done over there i can definitely understand why most of the foreigners decided not to stay for long.
great post, it's nice to hear the point of view of someone who actually knows what the fuck is going on. I blame KeSPA and it's stupid rules for all of these difficulties but i'm just prejudiced.
On December 28 2009 06:48 ghermination wrote: great post, it's nice to hear the point of view of someone who actually knows what the fuck is going on. I blame KeSPA and it's stupid rules for all of these difficulties but i'm just prejudiced.
On December 28 2009 06:45 Chill wrote: Agreed on every point.
Actually, even though it's public knowledge, I never knew how progaming actually worked until I was in Korea. You don't have a life. You follow their schedule, day in, day out, for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's not exciting to live in Korea because you can't fucking talk to anyone because they don't speak English, you don't have time to learn Korean, and you don't have time to actually step outside and see any of Seoul.
If anything, Idra deserves ridiculous amounts of credit for doing what he's done for so long. I know I wouldn't last 3 days. I'm completely serious.
One thing that occurs to me is that taking an hour a day off of bw to work on speaking korean would probably be worth more when you consider talking through builds and reps with other B teamers.
Rek, is there so little flexibility that that wouldn't be possible?
On December 28 2009 06:48 ghermination wrote: great post, it's nice to hear the point of view of someone who actually knows what the fuck is going on. I blame KeSPA and it's stupid rules for all of these difficulties but i'm just prejudiced.
i think it's not KeSPA, it's the entire mentality. seriously, who plays that much for 7/24?
On December 28 2009 06:45 Julmust wrote: Wasting another post towards 1k to post here but I simply had to:
first of all great post rek, but I have a question: you say this has alot to do with korean culture and how they want to fall in line, but couldn't it also be because korea can be a very racist country towards white people in general? (I remember reading this somewhere, might even have been you who wrote it).
ninjaedit: I'll also add that I dont really see where you're harsh on ret as mentioned before? Was it the part about him being "a big guy"? didnt really strike me as harsh
Bleh Koreans are very racist in general but not like direct hateful racism. It's more like they care about themselves and want to stay within their korean world rather than hating on others sort of racism.
Every now and again Rekrul posts and it makes my day. I didnt really know how things were over there till I met Idra/dan in singapore and they told me it was the first time they let him out the cj house in months.
Sadly for most people, especially the older players who have their own willpower, this would remain a dream imo.
Edit: Maybe willpower is the wrong word, still, any teacher will tell you its harder to teach/change the older your student is.
On December 28 2009 06:45 Chill wrote: Agreed on every point.
Actually, even though it's public knowledge, I never knew how progaming actually worked until I was in Korea. You don't have a life. You follow their schedule, day in, day out, for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's not exciting to live in Korea because you can't fucking talk to anyone because they don't speak English, you don't have time to learn Korean, and you don't have time to actually step outside and see any of Seoul.
If anything, Idra deserves ridiculous amounts of credit for doing what he's done for so long. I know I wouldn't last 3 days. I'm completely serious.
One thing that occurs to me is that taking an hour a day off of bw to work on speaking korean would probably be worth more when you consider talking through builds and reps with other B teamers.
Rek, is there so little flexibility that that wouldn't be possible?
Of course there is some flexibility, and the longer you've been on the team and/or the more skilled you are you can find more freedoms...but when you're a newb you have to follow the damn rules and not seem needy to gain their respect.
On December 28 2009 06:45 Julmust wrote: Wasting another post towards 1k to post here but I simply had to:
first of all great post rek, but I have a question: you say this has alot to do with korean culture and how they want to fall in line, but couldn't it also be because korea can be a very racist country towards white people in general? (I remember reading this somewhere, might even have been you who wrote it).
ninjaedit: I'll also add that I dont really see where you're harsh on ret as mentioned before? Was it the part about him being "a big guy"? didnt really strike me as harsh
On December 28 2009 06:44 Weasel- wrote: I think I've learned more about Korean Starcraft in this one post than I have in the past 6 months reading stuff on TL.
Was gonna say that... Interesting maybe if Ret knew about this before he would give it a second thought? I wonder did he know this before he went there?
On December 28 2009 06:50 dnosrc wrote: breaking news:
you should learn the language of the country where you want to live and work before you move there
Yeah, this. To be honest I was pretty shocked to find out ret didn't speak any Korean before going. Surely it's well known that Koreans don't speak a lot of english in general? Lots of respect to ret for his choices here anyway.
By the way, does anyone know if Idra speaks Korean at a decent level yet?
The life style has nothing to do with kespa. Its more due to the enormous supply of up and comers? like if you don't want to do it, others are willing. For petes sake you play video games for a living.
And I don't think its "racist" but similarly, if roles were reversed you wouldn't be as inclined to help either. LIke you play a few games but if he is inferior and not up to standards then what are you to do? Though I have no idea what went down with that replay leak thing, but that can't bold well for your reputation within the house.
To be blunt, you may have felt you were on top of the ladder before you went, but you are nobody once you are there. You have to reprove yourself all over again.
It would appear to be nigh impossible if you don't speak the language, and frankly I can't really understand why no foreigners have made more of an effort to learn it at a conversational level before going.
Still, it's a shame that the scene has become so introverted.
At the end of the day it's the same as all sports, if you want to play it at a professional level you have to give your life for it. But by the looks of things the language barrier is just too much to be overcome, and will wear foreigners down without allowing them to improve at the same rate as the other B teamers.
I'm glad Rek posted this and frankly I blame anyone who supports foreigners to try to become professional gamers for the non-sense drama I've seen. If you're going to attempt to work in another country, you don't just pack your bags on a whim, use your contacts THEN think about proper prep. Players like Nony and Ret jumped on the opportunity without thinking about what they needed to do to prepare for an experience like pro gaming in Korea. As an English and German speaker I find it easy to get along with people who share a common language with me but I needed korean speaking friends to bring me into the Korean bnet community. Two of my greatest online friends include Truth[fOu] and TheName[fOu] (thename has unfortunately gone to the army though :'( ), but the only reason I got along with them was because we had mutual contacts AND they showed an interest in the English language and foreigners in general. I still find myself being made fun of occasionally by koreans who are limited in their english speaking (thank god for friends who translate and being able to make fun of them back).
I think the foreign starcraft media (Artosis etc) need to discuss the issues of foreigner's coming to korea instead of glorifying the stories of the VERY FEW who have managed to play in Korea on professional teams. If you're dying to go to South Korea, why not apply for an English teaching job in south korea or try to do a university transfer instead of putting your life on hold. Starcraft 1 is a dead-end for foreigners - stop trying to promote it; move on with your life, play the game casually and prepare yourself for SC2.
Here i was wondering where has rekrul been this few months, and he comes back out of nowhere with a falcon kick in the reality nuts... great insight as usual, all that we could see on the media doesn't reflect the harshness of of this industry at all, all that we see r the winning and losing yet none that we can see how much work/practise/life that they have put into it. remember it took 2 years for the guy that beat ret and went on to win courage?
anyhow, i was looking forward for more of ur adventure story rekrul lol...
I don't really understand what's in it for the pro teams that still pick up foreigners. The reality is they are never going to be good and they will be an incredible burden on the team since they don't understand the culture and what is expected of them. Sometimes they fit in like Idra, but it's not like he is going to make it onto a proleague roster or something.
I feel like it's such a huge waste of time and resources for both parties, with virtually nothing to gain from it. A pro team should know more than anyone how ridiculously small the chance of a foreigner succeeding at even the lowest tier of pro gaming (like winning courage for example) let alone becoming an actual pro. I feel like they should be responsible and realistic enough to know how fruitless an endeavor it will be for everyone involved. But at the same time it's kind of nice that they would even try to accommodate foreign players, even though its utterly pointless.
These aren't incredibly hot prospects being brought in, they are guys that everyone knows will probably not succeed despite all our hopes that they will
what he says is true but most people already know about all the issues of the life of a foreigner progamer in korea
the only thing im hoping for is that cj somehow helps out in some way and drafts ret into the team so that idra and ret could help out each other(mainly idra introducing him to the korean lifestyle and bridging the gap between ret and the koreans, plus it would make their lives much more enjoyable.. even tho i understand the argument of a proteam not giving a shit about this)
Nice post Rekrul, this whole thing kinda reminds me of the "go to hollywood to become an actor" thing or maybe even the "go to vegas to become a poker pro" thing.
who cares about racism or people calling you fat, playing iccup in a progamer house is better than playing iccup anywhere else. Putting aside the question of whether progaming is a worthwhile career path, if you have a goal then you do everything to work towards it. If that means having to endure a hostile atmosphere and having to deal with people who don't like you nor want to help you, then my god, so be it. Racism LOL
Loved this post. I really think anyone who wants to go pro in SC2 should be learning to speak Korean right now, not abandoning all education to play 14 hours of SC a day. I think if a foreigner made an effort to learn the language before he came to Korea, they would receive him or her much better, rather than just some intrusive jerk who isn't willing to accept he's not in Kansas anymore.
On December 28 2009 07:22 zulu_nation8 wrote: who cares about racism or people calling you fat, playing iccup in a progamer house is better than playing iccup anywhere else. Putting aside the question of whether progaming is a worthwhile career path, if you have a goal then you do everything to work towards it.
How is playing iccup in a progamer house better than playing in your own? You're playing the exact same people, you lag so people are more hesitant to game with you. You don't know anyone in the house and can't communicate with them. The point of playing in a progamer house is to train with those other gamers in there, which ret couldn't even do due to obvious barriers. ret was better off training on his own in the comfort of his home IMO.
On December 28 2009 07:22 zulu_nation8 wrote: who cares about racism or people calling you fat, playing iccup in a progamer house is better than playing iccup anywhere else. Putting aside the question of whether progaming is a worthwhile career path, if you have a goal then you do everything to work towards it.
How is playing iccup in a progamer house better than playing in your own? You're playing the exact same people, you lag so people are more hesitant to game with you. You don't know anyone in the house and can't communicate with them. The point of playing in a progamer house is to train with those other gamers in there, which ret couldn't even do due to obvious barriers. ret was better off training on his own in the comfort of his home IMO.
A progaming house takes care of your room and board so you can concentrate. At home you have to be able to pay bills.
How many of you people who are saying "you should learn the native language before moving to a country" have actually taught yourself to be conversationally fluent in Korean as a second language? We are not just talking about learning some verb forms or honorifics here. Getting to the point where you can walk up to a native and hold a complete conversation takes years of study, especially a language like Korean which (at least to my ears) appears to be spoken very quickly. Sure, the natives might treat you a little better if you are making an effort to learn their language, but how exactly does that help ret's starcraft situation? Koreans have a massive advantage with training because they can freely speak to one another about strategies and get help from coaches. With just elementary knowledge of the language, the communication barrier would still be there.
awesome post. although i love pro starcraft and i think these kids are pretty much as good at this as anybody anywhere is at anything i can't help but feel it probably isn't worth the time and stress they invest
On December 28 2009 07:39 city42 wrote: How many of you people who are saying "you should learn the native language before moving to a country" have actually taught yourself to be conversationally fluent in Korean as a second language? We are not just talking about learning some verb forms or honorifics here. Getting to the point where you can walk up to a native and hold a complete conversation takes years of study, especially a language like Korean which (at least to my ears) appears to be spoken very quickly. Sure, the natives might treat you a little better if you are making an effort to learn their language, but how exactly does that help ret's starcraft situation? Koreans have a massive advantage with training because they can freely speak to one another about strategies and get help from coaches. With just elementary knowledge of the language, the communication barrier would still be there.
Ok, so it's hard... so what? That doesn't mean you shouldn't have to do it. I always thought it was strange that foreigners moved to Korea before learning the language. How do you expect to improve if you can't discuss games, etc. with the players? If you just want to get owned by gosu Koreans I'd imagine it wouldn't be much different from playing on iccup.
Really good post. But i still want to see Ret in Korea. I give a lot of credit to Idra now, i havent ever thinking that it's so hard to gain some respect (so far as i know Idra got some respect in CJ B team)
Artosis should gather some money and start a foreign team in korea and sign up for Proleague! But looks like the Courage tournament is way too hard in order to obtain the license. I guess the only chance foreigners might have in korean progaming is when sc2 comes out and they have some sort of equal start.
On December 28 2009 07:39 city42 wrote: How many of you people who are saying "you should learn the native language before moving to a country" have actually taught yourself to be conversationally fluent in Korean as a second language? We are not just talking about learning some verb forms or honorifics here. Getting to the point where you can walk up to a native and hold a complete conversation takes years of study, especially a language like Korean which (at least to my ears) appears to be spoken very quickly. Sure, the natives might treat you a little better if you are making an effort to learn their language, but how exactly does that help ret's starcraft situation? Koreans have a massive advantage with training because they can freely speak to one another about strategies and get help from coaches. With just elementary knowledge of the language, the communication barrier would still be there.
Ok, so it's hard... so what? That doesn't mean you shouldn't have to do it. I always thought it was strange that foreigners moved to Korea before learning the language. How do you expect to improve if you can't discuss games, etc. with the players? If you just want to get owned by gosu Koreans I'd imagine it wouldn't be much different from playing on iccup.
I was going to shout at you but that won't achieve much, so I'll just explain why you don't get it.
This is 2009. In order for ret to be at a point where he can walk up to a native Korean and have a nice, lengthy starcraft strategy discussion, he'd probably need 2 years of consistent learning and exposure to the language. This means that he would have needed to start in 2007. News flash: he didn't have an offer to go to Korea in 2007! Now, you may be asking: "so why didn't he start learning now and go there in 2011?" First of all, starcraft progaming may very well be dead or floundering by that time. Also, he may have decided that this is the last point in his life where he can take time off from everything to pursue this goal. In short, this situation did not really allow ret the time to achieve enough Korean fluency to have it make a difference with regard to his professional starcraft career.
On December 28 2009 07:39 city42 wrote: How many of you people who are saying "you should learn the native language before moving to a country" have actually taught yourself to be conversationally fluent in Korean as a second language? We are not just talking about learning some verb forms or honorifics here. Getting to the point where you can walk up to a native and hold a complete conversation takes years of study, especially a language like Korean which (at least to my ears) appears to be spoken very quickly. Sure, the natives might treat you a little better if you are making an effort to learn their language, but how exactly does that help ret's starcraft situation? Koreans have a massive advantage with training because they can freely speak to one another about strategies and get help from coaches. With just elementary knowledge of the language, the communication barrier would still be there.
The thing is, if you at least learned the language to a rudimentary, semi-conversational level, then you can pick up more just by talking and listening to people. If you don't know anything then you won't learn anything just by listening. The communication barrier would get smaller and smaller. And no, I haven't taught myself any Korean but I don't have any plans of going to live in Korea indefinitely any time soon, what's your point?
EDIT: Ok, saw your new post, and fair enough, but like I said, it's not like you need to become fluent before moving there. But taking like a 6-month crash course surely would have helped a lot? Maybe not, I don't know all the details so I won't go on about this.
On December 28 2009 07:39 city42 wrote: How many of you people who are saying "you should learn the native language before moving to a country" have actually taught yourself to be conversationally fluent in Korean as a second language? We are not just talking about learning some verb forms or honorifics here. Getting to the point where you can walk up to a native and hold a complete conversation takes years of study, especially a language like Korean which (at least to my ears) appears to be spoken very quickly. Sure, the natives might treat you a little better if you are making an effort to learn their language, but how exactly does that help ret's starcraft situation? Koreans have a massive advantage with training because they can freely speak to one another about strategies and get help from coaches. With just elementary knowledge of the language, the communication barrier would still be there.
I am slowly learning the language as I have time to spare and when you speak two languages fluently, I see no reason for you to insult me on not understanding the language perfectly before posting. If ret had understanding of the language it would create a common-ground between himself and teammates and he would be able to communicate with them. Communication is important on these teams because you need to engage in conversation to help improve your game as well as earn the respect of better players. With respect comes more chances to practice with your teammates. I don't believe ANYONE said anything about having a basic understanding of the language - please be more constructive if you plan on negating more comments. Throwing words into peoples' posts is just idiotic.
Good post Rekrul. He speaks pure truth. Koreans are a xenophobic culture. Combine that with extremely rigid groupthink style social dynamics and you have one of the least foreigner friendly countries in the world. This is probably why very few foreigners ever go to Korea for a job other than for teaching English.
People who go to Korea to be a progamer are sort of like people who watch samurai animes then go to Japan to become a kendo master. It's a silly dream and 99% of the time not gonna happen. If it does happen it makes for a good movie script tho lol
I agree with all of this. I was very surprised when I first heard the news that Ret was going to korea because of pretty much everything rek said in this post. Great, great post.
This is a really important post. Thanks a lot Rekrul. Progaming has definitely lost a lot of its aura for me even though I knew conditions were shit already.
Rekrul comes back, honestly stuff I pretty much knew but it's good to get an actual person who knows this shit to talk about this situation as well.
Progaming is never going to change in Korea from what I see. It's going to follow the same method of K-Pop. Slave contracts, everyone stays in a house, no time to do leisure and extremely difficult to break into.
I had absolutely no idea how bad it was or just how dissimilar the cultures are. I guess I knew a little after reading the interviews with Draco and Nony after they came back but it wasn't really "knowing" in the true sense of the word. It was like... common knowledge in the likes of "medieval europe sucked ass" before reading about all the cruelty killing etc. I guess I never gave it a deeper thought. Thanks for this.
Clearly learning korean at fluency level is no small task, and to be honest, how long do you think it will be before there is no disadvantage in terms of language and culture when comparing to other korean aspiring progamers? What it comes down to is the koreans has to go out of their way to accomdate the foreigner, and unless something sparks this interest, i doubt they would be willing or interested.
Reality is, there's just so many disadvantage he has to face that other koreans don't need to even when you don't consider racism which to be honest there will be some level of.
I know why the IEF ppl want foreigners. Cuz when SC2 comes out, we know that the koreans will not dominate the scene like they are used to. So the teams that can get the good foreigners on their team will get the best players. And since some teams like eSTRO is taking in non korean players is to make a bond to the foreigner scene and then we will come to their team and not someone else's team.
On December 28 2009 07:39 city42 wrote: How many of you people who are saying "you should learn the native language before moving to a country" have actually taught yourself to be conversationally fluent in Korean as a second language? We are not just talking about learning some verb forms or honorifics here. Getting to the point where you can walk up to a native and hold a complete conversation takes years of study, especially a language like Korean which (at least to my ears) appears to be spoken very quickly. Sure, the natives might treat you a little better if you are making an effort to learn their language, but how exactly does that help ret's starcraft situation? Koreans have a massive advantage with training because they can freely speak to one another about strategies and get help from coaches. With just elementary knowledge of the language, the communication barrier would still be there.
I am slowly learning the language as I have time to spare and when you speak two languages fluently, I see no reason for you to insult me on not understanding the language perfectly before posting. If ret had understanding of the language it would create a common-ground between himself and teammates and he would be able to communicate with them. Communication is important on these teams because you need to engage in conversation to help improve your game as well as earn the respect of better players. With respect comes more chances to practice with your teammates. I don't believe ANYONE said anything about having a basic understanding of the language - please be more constructive if you plan on negating more comments. Throwing words into peoples' posts is just idiotic.
What the hell? The one guilty of libel here is you, not me. The point I was attempting to make was, unless someone has actually gone through the experience of learning a second language and moving to a country where it is spoken, they should not be in a position to tell ret about its importance. How did I throw words into anyone's post? Unless people have first hand experience, their words are pure speculation. Thus, I asked whether or not they had the experience. No attempt was made by me to insult anyone, it was purely interrogative.
If you aren't going to take the time to read what I actually wrote, I will not continue debating this with you.
On December 28 2009 08:03 Crucifix wrote: Since when Draco was/is a rich kid? I guess I missed something. But hell yeah, nice post Rekrul, explains all.
On December 28 2009 08:02 jeddus wrote: As with any competitive profession, in order to succeed (even if that means breaking even) you have to make enormous sacrifices.
Most people don't understand exactly what "sacrifice" means until they are asked to make it.
You are really off.
Labor is a simple process. You look at an occupation and ask "what is the benefit of working this job?" Then you ask yourself "what is the cost?" This is called the cost/benefit analysis.
Becoming a progamer has HIGH costs, LOW benefit. Trying to conflate the issue into some sort of "enormous sacrifice" is retarded. If you need to make an enormous sacrifice, then there better be an enormous payoff!
Like investment banking maybe? Or becoming a heart surgeon? Or becoming an attorney?
You notice what the avg pay rate is for these jobs? Do you see why people are willing to make sacrifices for them? Do you see how they're not only economically rewarding but socially prestigious?
Now look at progaming, which arguably takes greater dedication and intellectual ability than most of these jobs. What is the pay? What is the social recognition? How is your health? How adaptable is the work experience to another occupation?
Rekrul have 100% right. After that post i thing that some ppl that want to "become progamers" gonna thing alot better about that. We only see the "goodside" Rekrul you show the "darkside" of things. Some dreams are hard to achieve...
out of curiosity: which language do koreans learn in school? it's obviously not english.
watched some documentation about german immigrants in korea earlier (nothing bw related) and they were not able to find a korean in a crowded street in seoul who could describe them the way in english. speaking english does not seem to be a good talent toi have in korea, which is kinda surprising for a country whose economy hugely relies on export.
maybe it's just the language barrier and not a lack of friendliness, that makes you think koreans are xenophobic.
Wow, well said Rekrul. But to be honest, becoming a doctor probably takes less effort than a Progamer, so Ret should actually find a job back in Netherlands and only treat SC as a hobby or something or wait until SC2 comes out. When SC2 comes out, there will be probably sponsored team outside of Korea.
On December 28 2009 08:21 Corvi wrote: out of curiosity: which language do koreans learn in school? it's obviously not english.
watched some documentation about german immigrants in korea earlier (nothing bw related) and they were not able to find a korean in a crowded street in seoul who could describe them the way in english. speaking english does not seem to be a good talent toi have in korea, which is kinda surprising for a country whose economy hugely relies on export.
maybe it's just the language barrier and not a lack of friendliness, that makes you think koreans are xenophobic.
english is actually taught in schools and parents send their kids to expensive english private institutes after school or private tutors. Of course they arent fluent but a lot are better then you think.
It seems like if we really want foreigners to succeed in korea, there should be a special manager/translator/advocate who can put up a decent number of hours a week with the players. And before they enter the house, maybe a preparation camp (like many study abroad programs have), where they will teach korean game terms to the players and comment on their games in korean only. And when they're in korea, they take the time to teach them new phrases when the players are given advice.
It sounds impractical to find two people willing to make the sacrifice rather than just one, but maybe if you could find 2 or 3 korean high school students to dedicate 5 hours a week each as community service. Or maybe future foreigner tournaments can dedicate some amount of funds to compensate a part time manager. Or if say estro gets to hire an additional coach, who's partially subsidized by foreigner funds and has part time duties as foreigner manager.
In my opinion, ret's at a higher level than nony or idra when they went to korea, but it sounds as if he's had the most challenging situation. If someone can smooth things over and get him some damn training, he's sure to start placing high in courage. Estro isn't going to want to adapt to him, but someone else takes care of the adaptation, they lose nothing.
On December 28 2009 08:27 igotmyown wrote: It seems like if we really want foreigners to succeed in korea, there should be a special manager/translator/advocate who can put up a decent number of hours a week with the players.
On December 28 2009 08:22 Slow Motion wrote: Damn this made my respect for Idra shoot way up. I really want him to win TSL now. Somebody really needs to start a foreigner team in Korea though.
Nigh impossible unless a large foreign corporation (like Intel with SK for WC3 back in 2004) would want to invest in it. Gotta pay the monies to form a team.
The closest possible thing foreigners could do is one of them houses like the major guilds (Name etc) have.
On December 28 2009 08:02 jeddus wrote: As with any competitive profession, in order to succeed (even if that means breaking even) you have to make enormous sacrifices.
Most people don't understand exactly what "sacrifice" means until they are asked to make it.
You are really off.
Labor is a simple process. You look at an occupation and ask "what is the benefit of working this job?" Then you ask yourself "what is the cost?" This is called the cost/benefit analysis.
Becoming a progamer has HIGH costs, LOW benefit. Trying to conflate the issue into some sort of "enormous sacrifice" is retarded. If you need to make an enormous sacrifice, then there better be an enormous payoff!
Like investment banking maybe? Or becoming a heart surgeon? Or becoming an attorney?
You notice what the avg pay rate is for these jobs? Do you see why people are willing to make sacrifices for them? Do you see how they're not only economically rewarding but socially prestigious?
Now look at progaming, which arguably takes greater dedication and intellectual ability than most of these jobs. What is the pay? What is the social recognition? How is your health? How adaptable is the work experience to another occupation?
Yeah, exactly.
1. Follow your dreams, because only then you can truly be happy. Work toward your goals, sacrifice, and at least you can say you tried. Don't settle for less.
2. Be smart and pragmatic. Ambition is great, but you have to know yourself and what you are capable of. Work hard, set goals, but don't be delusional, not everyone can be a professional basketball player, movie director, or astronaut.
Just about every super-successful person (sports player, company CEO, genius artist, movie star) follows #1. But the harsh reality is that these are exceptional people who achieve what they do through a combination of hard work, talent, and luck. However, just wanting a dream and working hard at it is often not enough to succeed. Not everyone can be exceptional but almost everyone at some point in their lives have exceptional dreams. Its very difficult to give up on these dreams because the precise reason why some people succeed is because they never give up on dreams.
For instance, Asian parents in general are 100% #2. They are all about succeeding by finding very pragmatic, high probability fields. Get your education, go to medical or law school, get a high paying job. That's what StorkHwaiting describes. But its also a path that will never lead to someone achieving something extraordinary. Investment banking, attorney, etc -- these are high paying jobs but there is a quality of life cost that comes with it. Of course I'm not saying its comparable to working at a grocery store, but if you're smart enough to do these fields, you are often smart enough to make a living doing something you actually love to do (ask how many corporate people are really satisfied with their job lol).
#2 is far more favorable in terms of odds and overall success for the "average" group of people. If you follow #1, you're likely going to be great (for the .001% that succeed) or fail very hard (99.999%). Progaming is #1, going to school and getting an office job is #2. The big problem is that people are very easily deluded into thinking they are among at .001%, when they are far from it. It really, really sucks to be someone in the top .01 percentile that is just hardworking or talented enough to almost make it but not. Sometimes it's much easier just to be average -- your choices are far more clear cut.
Its a very difficult decision all young people have to make at some point in their lives.
On December 28 2009 08:21 Corvi wrote: out of curiosity: which language do koreans learn in school? it's obviously not english.
watched some documentation about german immigrants in korea earlier (nothing bw related) and they were not able to find a korean in a crowded street in seoul who could describe them the way in english. speaking english does not seem to be a good talent toi have in korea, which is kinda surprising for a country whose economy hugely relies on export.
maybe it's just the language barrier and not a lack of friendliness, that makes you think koreans are xenophobic.
english is actually taught in schools and parents send their kids to expensive english private institutes after school or private tutors. Of course they arent fluent but a lot are better then you think.
I've been to many Asian countries and I can say that apart from Singapore the average English skill sucks.
And since pro gamers dont care much about school, their English skills must be close to nonexistant.
1st of all good post rekul^^ this subject is really interesting its not often i sit down and read 5 pages just like that, but now i did xd
i was shocked when i first heard that ret was going to korea, i - just like everyone gave him my best of luck but i think almost all of us realized that he wont be in pro league, i think ret realized this too before going also
anyhow he went for it and now he knows, its a life experience and now he wont wonder how well he would do in korea. i say good job for ret to be brave enough to go to korea and i say well played to him to go home.
if we knew sc was going to live for a few more years and we would have time to learn some korean and improve in korea. then yes its a good idea to go to korea if you love the game and is ready to sacrifice a social life. but the fact is that sc2 coming even tho blizzard is delaying it shitmuch but it is coming. it sounds like ret enjoy the game, just like the other ppl who gone to korea, but dont enjoy it when playing too much every day.
personally i feel wow today im gonna play all day and i do, i can sometimes ladder straight 12 hours (including small breaks of eat). but then the next day i can say "today i feel like watching forum and hang with clan mates"... u need really high stamina to play like the progamers. but i think its alittle stupid of the coaches not to allow ret to have 1 more hour of rest or what he now wanted, because playing too much is sometimes worse than playing a normal amount of time. they should been more adaptable to say "ok ret first week 5 hour per day, next week 6 hours etc".
tbh as long as you cant reach A+ against the koreans on iccup (these r amateurs and some "progamers") i dont see how you could stand a chance to practice against the B team progamers. they want to practice with you if your are better or as good as them
i dont believe that they r "racist" or anything, it sounds like ur just angry at korea because foreigners cant adapt to them and their conditions are unrealistic
i also dont believe u should be able to speak korean to go to korea, if you have tons of skills before going there u wont need to talk much strategy, u will bash courage and jump up to A-team. improve at home and show skill in korea. just like u study alot before taking driver licence, u just want to do that test 1 time... but then what i just wrote sounds incredible hilarious cause its pretty much impossible, but yea it is but its best option u have i think
On December 28 2009 08:21 Corvi wrote:maybe it's just the language barrier and not a lack of friendliness, that makes you think koreans are xenophobic.
I know not much about Korean culture, but a brick wall language barrier would obviously be a huge part of it for just about anyone anywhere.
On December 28 2009 08:02 jeddus wrote: As with any competitive profession, in order to succeed (even if that means breaking even) you have to make enormous sacrifices.
Most people don't understand exactly what "sacrifice" means until they are asked to make it.
You are really off.
Labor is a simple process. You look at an occupation and ask "what is the benefit of working this job?" Then you ask yourself "what is the cost?" This is called the cost/benefit analysis.
Becoming a progamer has HIGH costs, LOW benefit. Trying to conflate the issue into some sort of "enormous sacrifice" is retarded. If you need to make an enormous sacrifice, then there better be an enormous payoff!
Like investment banking maybe? Or becoming a heart surgeon? Or becoming an attorney?
You notice what the avg pay rate is for these jobs? Do you see why people are willing to make sacrifices for them? Do you see how they're not only economically rewarding but socially prestigious?
Now look at progaming, which arguably takes greater dedication and intellectual ability than most of these jobs. What is the pay? What is the social recognition? How is your health? How adaptable is the work experience to another occupation?
Yeah, exactly.
1. Follow your dreams, because only then you can truly be happy. Work toward your goals, sacrifice, and at least you can say you tried. Don't settle for less.
2. Be smart and pragmatic. Ambition is great, but you have to know yourself and what you are capable of. Work hard, set goals, but don't be delusional, not everyone can be a professional basketball player, movie director, or astronaut.
Just about every super-successful person (sports player, company CEO, genius artist, movie star) follows #1. But the harsh reality is that these are exceptional people who achieve what they do through a combination of hard work, talent, and luck. However, just wanting a dream and working hard at it is often not enough to succeed. Not everyone can be exceptional but almost everyone at some point in their lives have exceptional dreams. Its very difficult to give up on these dreams because the precise reason why some people succeed is because they never give up on dreams.
For instance, Asian parents in general are 100% #2. They are all about succeeding by finding very pragmatic, high probability fields. Get your education, go to medical or law school, get a high paying job. That's what StorkHwaiting describes. But its also a path that will never lead to someone achieving something extraordinary. Investment banking, attorney, etc -- these are high paying jobs but there is a quality of life cost that comes with it. Of course I'm not saying its comparable to working at a grocery store, but if you're smart enough to do these fields, you are often smart enough to make a living doing something you actually love to do (ask how many corporate people are really satisfied with their job lol).
#2 is far more favorable in terms of odds and overall success for the "average" group of people. If you follow #1, you're likely going to be great (for the .001% that succeed) or fail very hard (99.999%). Progaming is #1, going to school and getting an office job is #2. The big problem is that people are very easily deluded into thinking they are among at .001%, when they are far from it. It really, really sucks to be someone in the top .01 percentile that is just hardworking or talented enough to almost make it but not. Sometimes it's much easier just to be average -- your choices are far more clear cut.
Its a very difficult decision all young people have to make at some point in their lives.
This changed my view on programing. Those people are so extreme at everything they do. I really hope that the foreign community can pull something of in sc2.
I hope that this is a lesson for every foreigner who wants to go to Korea. And remember: Koreans are not more talented then foreigners. Starcraft is their life, and that's why they are better.
Gotta at least try. You can tell everyone here not to do it, but if they were given the chance I bet 99% of all the people here would go and try to be a progamer in korea. I know I would. At the very least it's a story to tell.
On December 28 2009 08:02 jeddus wrote: As with any competitive profession, in order to succeed (even if that means breaking even) you have to make enormous sacrifices.
Most people don't understand exactly what "sacrifice" means until they are asked to make it.
You are really off.
Labor is a simple process. You look at an occupation and ask "what is the benefit of working this job?" Then you ask yourself "what is the cost?" This is called the cost/benefit analysis.
Becoming a progamer has HIGH costs, LOW benefit. Trying to conflate the issue into some sort of "enormous sacrifice" is retarded. If you need to make an enormous sacrifice, then there better be an enormous payoff!
Like investment banking maybe? Or becoming a heart surgeon? Or becoming an attorney?
You notice what the avg pay rate is for these jobs? Do you see why people are willing to make sacrifices for them? Do you see how they're not only economically rewarding but socially prestigious?
Now look at progaming, which arguably takes greater dedication and intellectual ability than most of these jobs. What is the pay? What is the social recognition? How is your health? How adaptable is the work experience to another occupation?
Yeah, exactly.
1. Follow your dreams, because only then you can truly be happy. Work toward your goals, sacrifice, and at least you can say you tried. Don't settle for less.
2. Be smart and pragmatic. Ambition is great, but you have to know yourself and what you are capable of. Work hard, set goals, but don't be delusional, not everyone can be a professional basketball player, movie director, or astronaut.
Just about every super-successful person (sports player, company CEO, genius artist, movie star) follows #1. But the harsh reality is that these are exceptional people who achieve what they do through a combination of hard work, talent, and luck. However, just wanting a dream and working hard at it is often not enough to succeed. Not everyone can be exceptional but almost everyone at some point in their lives have exceptional dreams. Its very difficult to give up on these dreams because the precise reason why some people succeed is because they never give up on dreams.
For instance, Asian parents in general are 100% #2. They are all about succeeding by finding very pragmatic, high probability fields. Get your education, go to medical or law school, get a high paying job. That's what StorkHwaiting describes. But its also a path that will never lead to someone achieving something extraordinary. Investment banking, attorney, etc -- these are high paying jobs but there is a quality of life cost that comes with it. Of course I'm not saying its comparable to working at a grocery store, but if you're smart enough to do these fields, you are often smart enough to make a living doing something you actually love to do (ask how many corporate people are really satisfied with their job lol).
#2 is far more favorable in terms of odds and overall success for the "average" group of people. If you follow #1, you're likely going to be great (for the .001% that succeed) or fail very hard (99.999%). Progaming is #1, going to school and getting an office job is #2. The big problem is that people are very easily deluded into thinking they are among at .001%, when they are far from it. It really, really sucks to be someone in the top .01 percentile that is just hardworking or talented enough to almost make it but not. Sometimes it's much easier just to be average -- your choices are far more clear cut.
Its a very difficult decision all young people have to make at some point in their lives.
On December 28 2009 08:42 Belano wrote: Also, is it just me or do pro-gamers seriously need some labour unions or something?
It took major sports leagues in the United States (like NBA, NFL, MLB, etc) several decades to get labor unions. Esports are nowhere close to that yet. Saying "progamers need unions" is like saying "progamers need multimillion dollar salaries." Obviously a progamer union would be awesome for them, but its just not a reality.
On December 28 2009 08:01 GTR wrote: Rekrul comes back, honestly stuff I pretty much knew but it's good to get an actual person who knows this shit to talk about this situation as well.
Progaming is never going to change in Korea from what I see. It's going to follow the same method of K-Pop. Slave contracts, everyone stays in a house, no time to do leisure and extremely difficult to break into.
rofl, gtr seriously just compared progaming with kpop.
On December 28 2009 08:21 Corvi wrote: out of curiosity: which language do koreans learn in school? it's obviously not english.
watched some documentation about german immigrants in korea earlier (nothing bw related) and they were not able to find a korean in a crowded street in seoul who could describe them the way in english. speaking english does not seem to be a good talent toi have in korea, which is kinda surprising for a country whose economy hugely relies on export.
maybe it's just the language barrier and not a lack of friendliness, that makes you think koreans are xenophobic.
rek can speak korean...they are xenophobic. Dont make excuses...
On December 28 2009 08:01 GTR wrote: Rekrul comes back, honestly stuff I pretty much knew but it's good to get an actual person who knows this shit to talk about this situation as well.
Progaming is never going to change in Korea from what I see. It's going to follow the same method of K-Pop. Slave contracts, everyone stays in a house, no time to do leisure and extremely difficult to break into.
rofl, gtr seriously just compared progaming with kpop.
i dont believe that they r "racist" or anything, it sounds like ur just angry at korea because foreigners cant adapt to them and their conditions are unrealistic
German culture and mentality is significantly different from that in France. Unless you've ever been in Korea, what makes you think you can make any kind of assesment about the culture? There is such a thing as overgeneralising obviously, but anyone who's ever been abroad for a significant amount of time is struck by the profound differences between peoples. Don't overestimate your ability to judge from afar.
Now I don't have any first hand experience here. I've never seen the progaming houses or actually gotten an idea of the conditions, but to me it seems that becoming a progamer is exactly the same as attending a high level music school, or any artistic/athletic school, in which huge amounts of practice are required to be the best, or even hang with the worst of the students.
Seems that the prospects are kind of similar (alot of music school graduates go on to do nothing outstanding), the work very intensive, and the impotus being that you must mould yourself the way they want you.
But at the same time they get to do what they enjoy doing, and perhaps thats worth it?
On December 28 2009 08:49 SuperJongMan wrote: It's ok Ret! At least Rek will be there for you! Try to win TSL -_-;; GL on estro..... One day... one day you may not be a progaming newbie.
The koreans I met on my journeys there looong ago were all super good people and not at all as you describe the youngsters on the pro-teams today! xDDDDD
(v-gundam, sega[30d.o.m], gundam)pro, enough, [nc]...marine, [nc]...no.1, themarine and some more =O)
On December 28 2009 08:42 Belano wrote: Also, is it just me or do pro-gamers seriously need some labour unions or something?
It took major sports leagues in the United States (like NBA, NFL, MLB, etc) several decades to get labor unions. Esports are nowhere close to that yet. Saying "progamers need unions" is like saying "progamers need multimillion dollar salaries." Obviously a progamer union would be awesome for them, but its just not a reality.
Yeah, I get that, I wasn't being too serious. But you know, I'm from communist Sweden, everyone has their labour union here(not really)
On December 28 2009 07:22 zulu_nation8 wrote: who cares about racism or people calling you fat, playing iccup in a progamer house is better than playing iccup anywhere else. Putting aside the question of whether progaming is a worthwhile career path, if you have a goal then you do everything to work towards it.
How is playing iccup in a progamer house better than playing in your own? You're playing the exact same people, you lag so people are more hesitant to game with you. You don't know anyone in the house and can't communicate with them. The point of playing in a progamer house is to train with those other gamers in there, which ret couldn't even do due to obvious barriers. ret was better off training on his own in the comfort of his home IMO.
A progaming house takes care of your room and board so you can concentrate. At home you have to be able to pay bills.
sorry but lol, who is thinking about paying their rent or bills when playing iccup ? -_- once you play bw you concentrate its almost impossible to think about sometihng else when you have a screen in front of you
On December 28 2009 07:22 zulu_nation8 wrote: who cares about racism or people calling you fat, playing iccup in a progamer house is better than playing iccup anywhere else. Putting aside the question of whether progaming is a worthwhile career path, if you have a goal then you do everything to work towards it.
How is playing iccup in a progamer house better than playing in your own? You're playing the exact same people, you lag so people are more hesitant to game with you. You don't know anyone in the house and can't communicate with them. The point of playing in a progamer house is to train with those other gamers in there, which ret couldn't even do due to obvious barriers. ret was better off training on his own in the comfort of his home IMO.
A progaming house takes care of your room and board so you can concentrate. At home you have to be able to pay bills.
sorry but lol, who is thinking about paying their rent or bills when playing iccup ? -_- once you play bw you concentrate its almost impossible to think about sometihng else when you have a screen in front of you
Thank you Daddy Rekrul for illuminating this topic. I always thought it was sucidal to go to Korea to be a progamer without at least learning some Korean first. I guess this affirms my thoughts on how progaming actually is.
On December 28 2009 07:22 zulu_nation8 wrote: who cares about racism or people calling you fat, playing iccup in a progamer house is better than playing iccup anywhere else. Putting aside the question of whether progaming is a worthwhile career path, if you have a goal then you do everything to work towards it.
How is playing iccup in a progamer house better than playing in your own? You're playing the exact same people, you lag so people are more hesitant to game with you. You don't know anyone in the house and can't communicate with them. The point of playing in a progamer house is to train with those other gamers in there, which ret couldn't even do due to obvious barriers. ret was better off training on his own in the comfort of his home IMO.
A progaming house takes care of your room and board so you can concentrate. At home you have to be able to pay bills.
sorry but lol, who is thinking about paying their rent or bills when playing iccup ? -_- once you play bw you concentrate its almost impossible to think about sometihng else when you have a screen in front of you
On December 28 2009 07:22 zulu_nation8 wrote: who cares about racism or people calling you fat, playing iccup in a progamer house is better than playing iccup anywhere else. Putting aside the question of whether progaming is a worthwhile career path, if you have a goal then you do everything to work towards it.
How is playing iccup in a progamer house better than playing in your own? You're playing the exact same people, you lag so people are more hesitant to game with you. You don't know anyone in the house and can't communicate with them. The point of playing in a progamer house is to train with those other gamers in there, which ret couldn't even do due to obvious barriers. ret was better off training on his own in the comfort of his home IMO.
A progaming house takes care of your room and board so you can concentrate. At home you have to be able to pay bills.
sorry but lol, who is thinking about paying their rent or bills when playing iccup ? -_- once you play bw you concentrate its almost impossible to think about sometihng else when you have a screen in front of you
I think the way it goes is, it's awesome that you're visiting their country, and they like that. They want to show you a good time, then you'll go back home and talk about how great their country was and you want to go back. Just don't go back, because it changes when you're not just a tourist and are now competing with them in their own country.
Sub china/korea/japan into the above and I think it's still true. Not to say there aren't cool people, but if I recall correctly 98/99% of the population is asian. And it would be one step further for people to actively help a foreigner (basically because they are a foreigner). Numbers don't add up to a good experience.
On December 28 2009 07:22 zulu_nation8 wrote: who cares about racism or people calling you fat, playing iccup in a progamer house is better than playing iccup anywhere else. Putting aside the question of whether progaming is a worthwhile career path, if you have a goal then you do everything to work towards it.
How is playing iccup in a progamer house better than playing in your own? You're playing the exact same people, you lag so people are more hesitant to game with you. You don't know anyone in the house and can't communicate with them. The point of playing in a progamer house is to train with those other gamers in there, which ret couldn't even do due to obvious barriers. ret was better off training on his own in the comfort of his home IMO.
A progaming house takes care of your room and board so you can concentrate. At home you have to be able to pay bills.
sorry but lol, who is thinking about paying their rent or bills when playing iccup ? -_- once you play bw you concentrate its almost impossible to think about sometihng else when you have a screen in front of you
What are you possibly talking about? LOL.
you missed something?
Yea I missed the part where you said anything remotely reasonable. Obviously they aren't thinking about paying bills in the game, rofl.
Dont agree with you at all when it comes to the way you speak of korea and koreans. If try to adapt there is NO problem no matter who you are to fit in. It's not that different from adapting to any other place where they dont speak english.
I hate rekrul... but in this case hes totally right and i cant really understand why people were comin there and didnt expect this... ofcourse that they will treat u like a bitch and expect that u will listen to them.. u wanted to come over and to join THEIR team. u have to respect their rules.. and who here say that in EU this would not be possible to be like slave... i think u are really dumb nobody say to this people to be in this house u can leave anytime u want but u will not be succesful.. its like in any other sport... u live for it or u leave...
yep, progaming is merciless. it ain't a walk in the park. this post is a good reminder of what everyone is supposed to already know about life as a progamer.
as for the information contained in it, well... you could kinda guess what was up. Not too much of a shocker, imo.
I hope things work out the best possible way for ret in the end. It just feels better to root for someone more friendly and humble than Idra, at least from the outside.
The most facinating about this thread is that a lot of people actually thought that going korea as a progamer is an was thing to do! Ofcourse theyre going to demand you to train until you cant keep your eyes open anymore. Ofcourse theyre going to demand discipline, as they would of anyone going to Korea for work. Ofcourse its going to be difficult to make friends when you dont know the language.
Is all this really news?
On December 28 2009 09:29 SiDX wrote: Also i think we gotta stop making sc1 progaming seem so amazing when it obviously isn't
I still think its amazing and I surely would grab the oppertuinity if I could. Even if you fail, 1 year of adventure is surely worth it in the end. In the same way I think it would be facinating to be president, I know theres a lot of work to get that job. But that doesnt mean its not worth it if its what youre dreaming of. I respect people who chase their dream, even if it seems like a "stupid" decision in the eyes of others.
What. It has only been about 2 months since he got to Korea. To be honest I didn't expect him to stay long ever since his trip to Korea was announced, so I can't say that I'm disappointed, but I think foreigners should look at history and seriously consider the failure rate before deciding to go. If too many more foreigners quit within 2 months after going to a progaming team, I think we may find that the teams will be more apprehensive about offering spots to foreigners in the near future.
With that said, I have even more respect now for what Idra is doing.
Since the Teamliquid forums sadly hide the topics that have been closed (moved to the closed forums, where people won't see them), I was thinking that some people might find the quote where ret explain the situation useful (from the topic "ret @ Courage #2"):
On December 28 2009 00:51 ret wrote: just to clarify a few things:
As far as the games went, first game he went 9 pool I went 12 pool. I stopped his lings, then stopped muta/ling harass and won the game off 2 gas mutas eventually.
2nd game he scouted me first, I had went 12 pool again and he went 12 hatch, I couldn't pressure him w/ lings, then made 2 too many drones and lost quickly to non stop lings off 2 hatch.
3rd game ( I believe this one is recorded ) I went 12 hatch and he went 12 pool, he made drones early when he saw my 12 hat, it was on hbr so we actually scouted each other normally, then I failed to do any damage with lings, and when I was about to, 4 mutas popped so I had to pull back 14 lings that i couldnt do anything with, bad judgement on my part. After that I actually decided to get muta armor because I am completly unconfident doing muta / scourge vs muta / scourge with a korean. Because of that however I lost a muta battle a little bit before my upgrade finished, he had more, and his control was far better.
My living conditions have not been anything like what people here think. I have been living with artosis for the past 3 weeks (poor guy has spent maybe 3 days alone in his new appartment he got in august lol), before that I was in the estro house for 2,5 weeks. Before that I was staying at IEF hotels/living with artosis for a month. There were a lot of differences between what estro wanted, what I wanted, and my expectations of living with a team were a lot different than reality. Details are not really important but for one nobody really played with me and the coaches didn't show any interest. It was really hard to stay motivated the past little while, wether it was in estro or sitting in a pc bang, grinding away at iccup for x ammount of hours a day anonomyously and unable to play with friends because of 'lag' has been really difficult. There were a lot of things on the side that really bothered me and them (estro) as well, things I did wrong on my part. Combined with how it all started, me coming over and being 'kicked' out for a month b/c of the false replay thing etc, it was just a far from ideal situation. I can understand estro's point of view as well, I am a 24 year old white guy, and my personality is quite different from the average 16 year old korean they bring in, so it must've been somewhat different for them also. Anyhow, I couldn't live there anymore, I was miserable there, however I didn't want to give up on the 'progamer dream' either. I'm actually really surprised people didn't catch on when I started streaming again, when you live in a progamer house your schedual is 12 hours 7 days a week so there would never be any time to stream. =P
My plan was to do well at courage and try to find a different team, but since I lost in the 1st round, not once, but twice, I don't know how feasible that is now. Those results look REALLY REALLY bad to just about anyone, not to mention what it does to my self-image and self-confidence when it comes to sc. I am extremely dissapointed with what I have done since I've gone to Korea. I got raped by terror[fou] in IEF, lost twice to people who are not really anything special in courage, and in general am still struggling hard at the A- level on iccup. I don't want to give up, but I also can't just stay for another X ammount of month in Korea troubling artosis with a roommate and spending money playing out of a pc bang and having to pay for daily food etc. Even though my training scheduales have been far from ideal, I have a hard time believing someone like kolll or dimaga would do this bad.
On December 28 2009 04:26 ret wrote: The estro coaches are actually very friendly. They didn't go out of their way to discriminate me, but they didn't go out of their way to help me either. It's just a huge culture difference. I have nothing against them. It just didn't work out w/ them, no hard feelings there.
I explained things because I was tired of people asking me how it was like in the estro house, and partly to make an excuse for my pityfull courage performance. But please don't turn this into an estro hate fest, because their coaches and especially the manager, hwanni, are very good people. It's partly my fault that things didn't work out as well.
On December 28 2009 01:27 ret wrote: zergpower, taking money from people who love the game just to further fund a journey that has very little prospect right now is just about the last thing I want to do, and shouldn't be rushed into.
I really appreciate your support, but It's not really the appropiate time atm.
Agree with pretty much every part on Korean behavior. I'm half korean(look american though) and every fucken person at my korean church is such an ass to me it's not even funny(The one I grew up in was nice but not when I moved to this place), you open doors for people and they don't even acknowledge your presence, then they turn around and greet some other kid just because his face it =_=
God I wish some people in science had half the balls Rekrul does.
It's such an incredible skill...being able to tell someone that what they're doing is stupid. Too much time is wasted in my line of work when all they needed was a Rekrul to tell them, 'Just fucking stop. This is stupid.'
Anyone who thought life in a korean pro house was anything other than this couldn't get past their delusions over the fantasy of what they want progaming to be, rather than what economics and culture dictate. Use your brains and connect the dots and it's so obvious that there's very little glitz in the world of professional gaming. The majority of TLers need to stop being delusional about this game.
If you do anything for a job, you better do it fucking well. If you're going to compete against thousands of people for the few paying jobs in this industry, then you better be a hundred times better than average, and you need to play those extra two hours a day, and then another extra two hours, and not see the light of day, because other people are willing to practice their asses off to get the few prizes there are.
im nominating this for post of the year award great post rekrul i wish it had worked out differently, but no point dwelling on the past there will be a white progamer in SC2
How is everyone praising Rekrul? He's only stating the obvious. When Nony went he knew he would be playing iccup only. He specifically said this because he knew what Idra had to go through.
Rekrul is doing the exact same thing Chill was so blunt about when others did it. Now Chill suddenly praises him for it.
Also, Rekrul has been wrong on Idra.
Not to mention he used to be a poker player. Go figure!
On December 28 2009 10:06 miseiler wrote: God I wish some people in science had half the balls Rekrul does.
It's such an incredible skill...being able to tell someone that what they're doing is stupid. Too much time is wasted in my line of work when all they needed was a Rekrul to tell them, 'Just fucking stop. This is stupid.'
I disagree ... if anyone else made this post they'd be banned.
I had a bet going with a friend. I won that bet. Thank you, Ret.
Every ret-tard kept saying he'd make it, he'd make it. Fucking make what? The fucking pro-league? You expect to get make a pro-league appereance by not even knowing how to zvz? I knew he'd choke after his post on the naugnim(or w.e his name is) incident, where it was being discussed whether he should be allowed to play or not. Ret, your words were words of fear.
Sorry, but nice people get nowhere. People without balls don't get fucking ANYWHERE.
White-Ra: He's the fucker I respect the MOST out of this twisted liquid team shit. He's even managing a program to expand e-sports in his country. That takes balls, that takes fucking steel balls.
Ret. You ought to talk to Rekul and White-ra. Learn what real men with visions and balls are. Then maybe, just fucking MAYBE my bet with a friend will go on your favor.
On December 28 2009 10:43 Arsis wrote: I had a bet going with a friend. I won that bet. Thank you, Ret.
Every ret-tard kept saying he'd make it, he'd make it. Fucking make what? The fucking pro-league? You expect to get make a pro-league appereance by not even knowing how to zvz? I knew he'd choke after his post on the naugnim(or w.e his name is) incident, where it was being discussed whether he should be allowed to play or not. Ret, your words were words of fear.
Sorry, but nice people get nowhere. People without balls don't get fucking ANYWHERE.
White-Ra: He's the fucker I respect the MOST out of this twisted liquid team shit. He's even managing a program to expand e-sports in his country. That takes balls, that takes fucking steel balls.
Ret. You ought to talk to Rekul and White-ra. Learn what real men with visions and balls are. Then maybe, just fucking MAYBE my bet with a friend will go on your favor.
But 100 bucks to me. I'm happy.
Now i have another reason to cheer for ret, so u loose 100 bucks =D
On December 28 2009 10:43 Arsis wrote: I had a bet going with a friend. I won that bet. Thank you, Ret.
Every ret-tard kept saying he'd make it, he'd make it. Fucking make what? The fucking pro-league? You expect to get make a pro-league appereance by not even knowing how to zvz? I knew he'd choke after his post on the naugnim(or w.e his name is) incident, where it was being discussed whether he should be allowed to play or not. Ret, your words were words of fear.
Sorry, but nice people get nowhere. People without balls don't get fucking ANYWHERE.
White-Ra: He's the fucker I respect the MOST out of this twisted liquid team shit. He's even managing a program to expand e-sports in his country. That takes balls, that takes fucking steel balls.
Ret. You ought to talk to Rekul and White-ra. Learn what real men with visions and balls are. Then maybe, just fucking MAYBE my bet with a friend will go on your favor.
But 100 bucks to me. I'm happy.
Putting ur life on hold to go to a completely foreign country full of uncertainty but motivated by hope is pretty ballsy, no?
On December 28 2009 10:43 Arsis wrote: I had a bet going with a friend. I won that bet. Thank you, Ret.
Every ret-tard kept saying he'd make it, he'd make it. Fucking make what? The fucking pro-league? You expect to get make a pro-league appereance by not even knowing how to zvz? I knew he'd choke after his post on the naugnim(or w.e his name is) incident, where it was being discussed whether he should be allowed to play or not. Ret, your words were words of fear.
Sorry, but nice people get nowhere. People without balls don't get fucking ANYWHERE.
White-Ra: He's the fucker I respect the MOST out of this twisted liquid team shit. He's even managing a program to expand e-sports in his country. That takes balls, that takes fucking steel balls.
Ret. You ought to talk to Rekul and White-ra. Learn what real men with visions and balls are. Then maybe, just fucking MAYBE my bet with a friend will go on your favor.
But 100 bucks to me. I'm happy.
Putting ur life on hold to go to a completely foreign country full of uncertainty but motivated by hope is pretty ballsy, no?
It's not being ballsy, it's called being delusional.
On December 28 2009 10:43 Arsis wrote: I had a bet going with a friend. I won that bet. Thank you, Ret.
Every ret-tard kept saying he'd make it, he'd make it. Fucking make what? The fucking pro-league? You expect to get make a pro-league appereance by not even knowing how to zvz? I knew he'd choke after his post on the naugnim(or w.e his name is) incident, where it was being discussed whether he should be allowed to play or not. Ret, your words were words of fear.
Sorry, but nice people get nowhere. People without balls don't get fucking ANYWHERE.
White-Ra: He's the fucker I respect the MOST out of this twisted liquid team shit. He's even managing a program to expand e-sports in his country. That takes balls, that takes fucking steel balls.
Ret. You ought to talk to Rekul and White-ra. Learn what real men with visions and balls are. Then maybe, just fucking MAYBE my bet with a friend will go on your favor.
But 100 bucks to me. I'm happy.
Putting ur life on hold to go to a completely foreign country full of uncertainty but motivated by hope is pretty ballsy, no?
It's not being ballsy, it's called being delusional.
I'd say ballsy and delusional are almost the same words (or expressions) in this context.
On December 28 2009 10:43 Arsis wrote: I had a bet going with a friend. I won that bet. Thank you, Ret.
Every ret-tard kept saying he'd make it, he'd make it. Fucking make what? The fucking pro-league? You expect to get make a pro-league appereance by not even knowing how to zvz? I knew he'd choke after his post on the naugnim(or w.e his name is) incident, where it was being discussed whether he should be allowed to play or not. Ret, your words were words of fear.
Sorry, but nice people get nowhere. People without balls don't get fucking ANYWHERE.
White-Ra: He's the fucker I respect the MOST out of this twisted liquid team shit. He's even managing a program to expand e-sports in his country. That takes balls, that takes fucking steel balls.
Ret. You ought to talk to Rekul and White-ra. Learn what real men with visions and balls are. Then maybe, just fucking MAYBE my bet with a friend will go on your favor.
But 100 bucks to me. I'm happy.
Putting ur life on hold to go to a completely foreign country full of uncertainty but motivated by hope is pretty ballsy, no?
It's not being ballsy, it's called being delusional.
Whats delusional in taking a year off and going to a different country to try to make your dream come true? No matter how you look at it it's an awsome experiance, Way better than taking a year of doing nothing as a lot of people do.
This thread managed to fill to the top with bull shit pretty quickly.
To the group saying, "Open your eyes, of course it was going to be hard." This isn't the issue. Everybody is aware of the amount of work required to succeed in progaming, but having the deck stacked against you at an all ready difficult task is what is interesting. Realistically, I doubt the majority of posters actually thought ret would win his first or second courage, but given time to practice and train with eStro over the course of some months I'd imagine many people would say his chances would increase greatly. That, however, seems like it's not an option, so the proverbial "told you so's" are as fucking retarded as the guy telling ret to man up.
On December 28 2009 10:54 EsX_Raptor wrote: It's not being ballsy, it's called being delusional.
Don't confuse people cheering for ret to do well with legitimate expectations of sane people. Your post isn't edgy, it's stupid.
The original post was a good read. Read the whole thing! A lot of people have this distorted vision of going to Korea and becoming GOSU in Starcraft, but it just doesn't work that way. I really do hope IdrA is spending at LEAST a little bit of time learning Korean. Yao Ming's chinese speaking ass learned English so that he could communicate with his Rocket team and now they love him because he can actually communicate with his team.
Anyways point is Koreans work INSANE amount of hours and getting to practice with them will feel like an honor for about 2 hours before you realize you are in a Korean sweatshop playing Starcraft for God knows how long. I can barely play like 2-3 games in a row before I want to close the damn game.
PS: The best part about Korea IMO is the cheap soju.
Starcraft is just a bonus. Me personally I'd prefer Japan ^_^, but meh my job is in South Korea
re: working in Korea. (although I suspect it's the same wherever you go)
You make a choice pretty early on.
You either decide to pay your dues, or you decide that the end result of paying them dues isn't worth it, and you out.
In American terms, it's not unlike the initiations for joining a fraternity. You go through shit to get the respect of the group. Your resolve is tested - can people trust you? Can they consider you accountable? Can they consider you competent? If you still don't get it, you can go watch Avatar.
Either decision is legit. I don't know shit about ret, but from what I gather it seems that his decision to forgo the dues and forgo the possible benefits was a good one.
I'm studying in a college with nearly one thousand Korean. What rekrul said about Korean personality is true esp the younger age Koreans. To be honest, Koreans are not that nice, they are very close mind in someway, if you are foreigner they just shy away, they want to stick around in their own small group. I'm sure ret is isolated in Korea, but this is what he choice, it may not be a adventure but it's sure a experience in life that you will remember for many years to come. Anway, very good post but still i support the all foreigner that brave enough to go to Korea. If you guys can't blend in, really its not your fault. Koreans are hard to deal with
So sorry Ret Rek fucking killed it with the post. Come on, cut the crap. The minority of the people here knew what Korea was really like, and by minority I men anyone that is not friends with IdrA or Ret, and yes, a lot of us thought that going to Korea to get some mass-training to get ready and be the next BoxeR in SC2 was a good idea.
What I think that Rek really tried to show is that it may not be worth the sacrifice just for the "experience" as some people put it. Sitting in front of a monitor and then drinking a beer at a 7-11 is not much of an "experience".
Unless the foreigners start raping faces in SC2 expect the same Korean domination. Why? Simple. The culture is so incredibly inaccessible. Why do you see foreigners in Baseball and Basketball? Because English is a language you learn even if your not planning on going pro on sports. Korean? Not so much. How many people do you see learning Korean in their spare time? Exactly.
I didn't plan on playing videogames when I became older or following esports but I still know English pretty much as well as I know my native language (Spanish).
Back to Ret. Honestly he seemed very very very unmotivated in his last courage video. I hoped the best for him (still do) but once I saw his attitude I knew it was just a matter of time.
What people are not considering is that while it might be true that eStro is a pro team, it is one of the lesser ones. If I had to take a guess I would say that IdrA was going to suffer the same fate if he stayed on eStro, hell IdrA would had suffered the same fate if he had to obtain his license thru Courage. That pressure of knowing you HAVE to win that tournament and knowing how freaking hard it really is (que-in Flash's or JD story) can break your motivation and spirit very easily, specially in a "hostile" environment.
All I can say is good luck Ret, don't feel bad the odds were stacked against you way before you joined Valor :p Good luck to IdrA hopefully we will see him in pro league soon.
On December 28 2009 11:25 Ghardo wrote: look who forgot how he came there
He did not forget. he just want to remind/update people outside Korea that what Korea is really like. I live with alot of Korean, and I can gurantee that most things rekrul said about Koreans are true. Very difficult for foreigner to blend in. Maybe his language is a bit extreme, but it's rekrul after all
On December 28 2009 11:36 Arhkangel wrote: So sorry Ret Rek fucking killed it with the post. Come on, cut the crap. The minority of the people here knew what Korea was really like, and by minority I men anyone that is not friends with IdrA or Ret, and yes, a lot of us thought that going to Korea to get some mass-training to get ready and be the next BoxeR in SC2 was a good idea.
What I think that Rek really tried to show is that it may not be worth the sacrifice just for the "experience" as some people put it. Sitting in front of a monitor and then drinking a beer at a 7-11 is not much of an "experience".
Unless the foreigners start raping faces in SC2 expect the same Korean domination. Why? Simple. The culture is so incredibly inaccessible. Why do you see foreigners in Baseball and Basketball? Because English is a language you learn even if your not planning on going pro on sports. Korean? Not so much. How many people do you see learning Korean in their spare time? Exactly.
I didn't plan on playing videogames when I became older or following esports but I still know English pretty much as well as I know my native language (Spanish).
Back to Ret. Honestly he seemed very very very unmotivated in his last courage video. I hoped the best for him (still do) but once I saw his attitude I knew it was just a matter of time.
What people are not considering is that while it might be true that eStro is a pro team, it is one of the lesser ones. If I had to take a guess I would say that IdrA was going to suffer the same fate if he stayed on eStro, hell IdrA would had suffered the same fate if he had to obtain his license thru Courage. That pressure of knowing you HAVE to win that tournament and knowing how freaking hard it really is (que-in Flash's or JD story) can break your motivation and spirit very easily, specially in a "hostile" environment.
All I can say is good luck Ret, don't feel bad the odds were stacked against you way before you joined Valor :p Good luck to IdrA hopefully we will see him in pro league soon.
I think people learn English because it's the 20th century's langua franca with the American dominance of the last 40 years... Nothing really about the accessibility of the culture etc. I know a number of people who casually picked up Korean and have no problems speaking it fluently. Most of the multilingual people I know say Mandarin is hardest, then Japanese, then Korean is easiest among the three. I'm not gonna insist any language is easier than another, but that's just what people have told me.
For me, I think e-sports is probably not going to survive. I know a lot of people have hopes for SC2 and what not but e-sports is just not something that is viable in the sense that baseball/basketball is.
What is interesting to me is how these players probably knew this (in the general) and still went. When the general reality of playing the game at pro level clicked for me I stopped trying to get good. Maybe like hotbid suggested these guys hoped that they would somehow win against the odds, and it came down to chasing the dream. There is also truth in what Rekrul said, in that while players surely expected it to be difficult, they did not know the exact day-to-day difficulty of what they were getting into, especially the cultural aspect. Its a shame, hopefully sc2 is great and has local teams so some of these difficulties are removed.
Why do you see foreigners in Baseball and Basketball? Because English is a language you learn even if your not planning on going pro on sports. Korean? Not so much. How many people do you see learning Korean in their spare time? Exactly.
Wow so much truth in this post.
I've been in Korea for over 2 years and my Korean still sucks, but I realized that I'm not going to be in Korea forever and I rather spend my time focusing on my job / other things.
Once I leave Korea... I'll probably never speak or hear another Korean word again unless I turn on some Starcraft stream. Where as everybody and their mom speaks got damn English. I know at my High School we didn't have Korean. We had Spanish (of course), German, French, and I think that was it. NO KOREAN & no OTAKU err Japanese
I dont find anything new in Rekrul's post. Maybe most of you had some romantic view of progaming, but it's just like work. Hard work in fact - for 12+ hours a day. It's not "Korean culture". Certain jobs like consulting or (I believe) daytrading require one to invest gigantic effort and time, in a really competitive environment full of people who want to climb up. Although at those other jobs usually you need to cooperate with others to do your job, while in progaming you are on your own - you are responsible for improving your skill in order to win for yourself (just like daytraders). So no "Ill help you cuz I want to go home earlier" stuff. As Rekrul said, if you suck, they will practice with someone else, because it's more benefitial for them. Just like Ret doesnt practice vs D+ players.
During 10 pages of discussion few things have been missed: 1) Ret is a dick. No offense, but his attitude was always bad; he always behaved as if he was the shit. BMing other players (anyone remember that video when he trashtalked Mana(?) and Koll(?)); thinking that he is super skilled yet struggling to go past A-; thinking that he is smarter than everyone. I suppose he argued with the Kors or something; probably practice time. (I share this attitude with him though; Im a dick too, but usually Im right :D) 2) Ret obviously did something bad, which isnt mentioned here. In the other thread there was some mention of fake replays. An explanation would be nice. Chill probably knows what happened but wont reaveal it due to the tl.net hypocrisy (other examples: banning abusers in TSL but not banning abusers during the ILMP fake tourney, who brag in their posts how they solved the "problem") 3) I always wonder how does Idra get so much time to play in all the "foreign" tourneys - e.g. nearly 200 games on iccup is few days of missed practice time. Or maybe the Kors dont want to practice with him either? (ok, saying anything bad about Idra is a bad idea in general because he is an American player and all Americans will defend him, just like the Chinese always defend pj). 4) Progamers are good at starcraft, but I dont think they are good at anything else, because they probably skipped school/dont have much free time. I suppose they speak very poor English or none at all. Just try to chat with a random Korean at iccup. It will be hard, or impossible.
I don't think people see that there's such a cultural barrier in Korea. I think the key is that the progaming is in an extensive competitive environment.
Yeah some koreans can be easy and outgoing and socailize but you put them in an environment where they have to compete and they're gonna get everything down to a fucking science in order to dominate everyone and everything, and they won't let anything stand in their way.
I shouldn't say more because I'd probably just repeat what rek is saying. It was just a damn good read.
God I miss Rekrul's posts. I guess I'm one of those who once had an idea of what it's like there but forgot so I needed a post like this to remind myself how increadibly hard it is to be a progamer. Whenever I hear about a foreigner going to Korea, (especially someone I like) of course I'm going to be excited and tell myself "ya he'll make it!"
But deep down, I also knew there would be a greater chance that he wouldn't but I'm not one to judge quickly, I like giving people their chances and seeing what happens.
Everything that needs to be said has been said. Props to you ret for trying your best and I hope you better future success.
On December 28 2009 11:49 Infested Terran wrote: 3) I always wonder how does Idra get so much time to play in all the "foreign" tourneys - e.g. nearly 200 games on iccup is few days of missed practice time. Or maybe the Kors dont want to practice with him either? (ok, saying anyhing bad about Idra is a bad idea in general because he is an american player and all americans will defend him, just like the chinese always defend pj).
Yeah, I'm sure after being on CJ for a good while now when he explains that the biggest foreigner tournament is going to be starting and he has a serious chance to make bank the managers told him to go fuck himself and get out of the CJ house. My bad, I'm just a stupid American who clearly is defending Idra because we share nationalities.
I wont bother commenting on the rest of your post since it's clear your grasp of the English language is mediocre at best if you somehow thought ret's video about tsl was him shitting on mana and koll and not just giving honest opinions about them.
On December 28 2009 10:15 Bill Murray wrote: im nominating this for post of the year award great post rekrul i wish it had worked out differently, but no point dwelling on the past there will be a white progamer in SC2
What???? It´s funny how people tend to accept every post of Rekrul as a truth. Grow up. Like someone said, if anyone else made this post, they would be banned.
On December 28 2009 11:49 Infested Terran wrote: 3) I always wonder how does Idra get so much time to play in all the "foreign" tourneys - e.g. nearly 200 games on iccup is few days of missed practice time. Or maybe the Kors dont want to practice with him either? (ok, saying anyhing bad about Idra is a bad idea in general because he is an american player and all americans will defend him, just like the chinese always defend pj).
Yeah, I'm sure after being on CJ for a good while now when he explains that the biggest foreigner tournament is going to be starting and he has a serious chance to make bank the managers told him to go fuck himself and get out of the CJ house. My bad, I'm just a stupid American who clearly is defending Idra because we share nationalities.
Let's assume that: I am a trainer of Idra. I want Idra to improve.
Idra tells me "hey dude, I will waste x days or practice time to play 80 games vs D-B "newbs" on iccup, and then maybe 80 other beneficial games vs A- people - mostly foreigners/maybe some Kors who can publish my replays. If I do well, I can win some money - for me - not the team".
Would you agree on that if you wanted your player to improve? Or would you agree if you thought he won't achieve much?
btw. I believe that the pros share accounts because they dont want to climb the ladder (and to some degree they want to stay anonymous). They play to practice the game and you practice best vs hard opponents; thus playing 70 or more games just to reach A is a waste of time for them.
I wont bother commenting on the rest of your post since it's clear your grasp of the English language is mediocre at best if you somehow thought ret's video about tsl was him shitting on mana and koll and not just giving honest opinions about them.
He behaved as if he was much better than them; especially that laughter..
On December 28 2009 10:15 Bill Murray wrote: im nominating this for post of the year award great post rekrul i wish it had worked out differently, but no point dwelling on the past there will be a white progamer in SC2
What???? It´s funny how people tend to accept every post of Rekrul as a truth. Grow up. Like someone said, if anyone else made this post, they would be banned.
Yeah, that's probably true, but they wouldn't be banned because the post is wrong/inflammatory/stupid, which is probably the reason you're thinking of.
They'd be banned because they wouldn't know what the fuck they're talking about.
There's no one in Korea who is more familiar with all four post-Hex foreigners' situations than Rekrul, except maybe Artosis, although I dunno if he had arrived in Korea when Draco was there.
How did he even think people would accept him over there with his attitude? He didn't like the schedule, he didn't like the living conditions, he didn't like ... You can't go to another country & culture when you're basicly a nobody and then demanding all kinda stuff. Learning the language and actually trying to fit in would've shown those people that you actually wanted this life. And it would've changed their attitude towards you anyhow.
Oh well for being a 24-years-old he was quite naive, reading all this stuff and the things he said in that other topic.
On December 28 2009 12:05 Infested Terran wrote: Let's assume that: I am a trainer of Idra. I want Idra to improve.
Idra tells me "hey dude, I will waste x days or practice time to play 80 games vs D-B "newbs" on iccup, and then maybe 80 other beneficial games vs A- people - mostly foreigners/maybe some Kors who can publish my replays. If I do well, I can win some money - for me - not the team".
Would you agree on that if you wanted your player to improve? Or would you agree if you thought he won't achieve much?
btw. I believe that the pros share accounts because they dont want to climb the ladder (and to some degree they want to stay anonymous). They play to practice the game and you practice best vs hard opponents; thus playing 70 or more games just to reach A is a waste of time for them.
Ironic that the crux of your position is based around the time that would be invested to achieve the rank and play in the tournament when one of the major discussions about ret/progaming is the sheer number of hours spent each day, regimented, spent playing starcraft.
How on earth will Idra find time to play a few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks then a handful of games over the course of a couple of months. IMPOSSIBLE.
On December 28 2009 12:05 Infested Terran wrote: Let's assume that: I am a trainer of Idra. I want Idra to improve.
Idra tells me "hey dude, I will waste x days or practice time to play 80 games vs D-B "newbs" on iccup, and then maybe 80 other beneficial games vs A- people - mostly foreigners/maybe some Kors who can publish my replays. If I do well, I can win some money - for me - not the team".
Would you agree on that if you wanted your player to improve? Or would you agree if you thought he won't achieve much?
btw. I believe that the pros share accounts because they dont want to climb the ladder (and to some degree they want to stay anonymous). They play to practice the game and you practice best vs hard opponents; thus playing 70 or more games just to reach A is a waste of time for them.
Ironic that the crux of your position is based around the time that would be invested to achieve the rank and play in the tournament when one of the major discussions about ret/progaming is the sheer number of hours spent each day, regimented, spent playing starcraft.
How on earth will Idra find time to play a few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks then a handful of games over the course of a couple of months. IMPOSSIBLE.
You definitely dont understand the 'play vs best opponents possible all the time - in order to improve as fast as possible' perspective. If you play to win, you always practice vs best; no few games here and there or rather "few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks".
Although he is playing in TSL for money. From his point of view it might be ok; if I were his couch Id be angry that he wastes time playing newbs (ok, maybe last 50 games vs A Koreans were useful; rest - waste of time; and yes I believe that non-Koreans are much worse than random practice partners).
I don't see the problem regarding this oh-so-dangerous cultural barrier everyone is upset about. Sure, when you go from country to country in Europe, you'd expect a similar environment and the ability to get away with speaking English as your gap language. This is nothing like that, and I find it hard to believe any foreigners who have gone to Korea were that oblivious to it. I mean, being good enough to go to Korea in the first place, you'll have played enough Koreans that you realize that English just isn't going to cut it over there - even if you have a coach and friends who can help out.
Realistically, what can you expect? Hell, I've had plans to travel to Sweden to stay with friends that, as of now, have not worked out. But regardless, I've studied a fair bit of Swedish and learned about the culture on the side. And, in Sweden, I really wouldn't need one bit of it to get me through. That doesn't change the fact that it's still a good mindset to have when you plan on staying in a foreign country for a while. You never know when it will help you. The application of something like this when applied to Korea should be obvious.
I think that if I was seriously considering going to a Korean progaming team, I would wait until I could at least converse with the Koreans I played on Iccup in a meaningful fashion. Maybe even make some friends, you know? If you don't make an effort to absorb some of the culture yourself, how can you expect them to offer anything back to you?
Do you think these same problems would arise if we were talking about foreigners who were at least partially fluent in Korean, and had some knowledge of culture and current events? You gain quite a lot of respect even if you can make some witty comments about politics and what not. I mean, if you do succeed, you're planning on spending years there! Show you at least have some interest in the country you're going to be spending your life in for that time.
On December 28 2009 12:05 Infested Terran wrote: Let's assume that: I am a trainer of Idra. I want Idra to improve.
Idra tells me "hey dude, I will waste x days or practice time to play 80 games vs D-B "newbs" on iccup, and then maybe 80 other beneficial games vs A- people - mostly foreigners/maybe some Kors who can publish my replays. If I do well, I can win some money - for me - not the team".
Would you agree on that if you wanted your player to improve? Or would you agree if you thought he won't achieve much?
btw. I believe that the pros share accounts because they dont want to climb the ladder (and to some degree they want to stay anonymous). They play to practice the game and you practice best vs hard opponents; thus playing 70 or more games just to reach A is a waste of time for them.
Ironic that the crux of your position is based around the time that would be invested to achieve the rank and play in the tournament when one of the major discussions about ret/progaming is the sheer number of hours spent each day, regimented, spent playing starcraft.
How on earth will Idra find time to play a few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks then a handful of games over the course of a couple of months. IMPOSSIBLE.
You definitely dont understand the play vs best opponents possible all the time perspective. If you play to win, you always practice vs best; no few games here and there or rather (few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks). Ok, maybe he does this for the money though.
I understand your position entirely and your logic. It's just wrong. Is the time spent competing in TSL2 optimal training for Idra? No, but that doesn't mean it is a complete waste of time or actually detrimental to him. Couple that he is still playing starcraft against good competition, not just playing soccer with random people on the street, and has a legitimate shot to win 10k if he didn't compete it'd be foolish beyond belief.
On December 28 2009 12:05 Infested Terran wrote: Let's assume that: I am a trainer of Idra. I want Idra to improve.
Idra tells me "hey dude, I will waste x days or practice time to play 80 games vs D-B "newbs" on iccup, and then maybe 80 other beneficial games vs A- people - mostly foreigners/maybe some Kors who can publish my replays. If I do well, I can win some money - for me - not the team".
Would you agree on that if you wanted your player to improve? Or would you agree if you thought he won't achieve much?
btw. I believe that the pros share accounts because they dont want to climb the ladder (and to some degree they want to stay anonymous). They play to practice the game and you practice best vs hard opponents; thus playing 70 or more games just to reach A is a waste of time for them.
Ironic that the crux of your position is based around the time that would be invested to achieve the rank and play in the tournament when one of the major discussions about ret/progaming is the sheer number of hours spent each day, regimented, spent playing starcraft.
How on earth will Idra find time to play a few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks then a handful of games over the course of a couple of months. IMPOSSIBLE.
You definitely dont understand the play vs best opponents possible all the time perspective. If you play to win, you always practice vs best; no few games here and there or rather (few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks). Ok, maybe he does this for the money though.
I understand your position entirely and your logic. It's just wrong. Is the time spent competing in TSL2 optimal training for Idra? No, but that doesn't mean it is a complete waste of time or actually detrimental to him. Couple that he is still playing starcraft against good competition, not just playing soccer with random people on the street, and has a legitimate shot to win 10k if he didn't compete it'd be foolish beyond belief.
Well, it probably was beneficial for him, because he still lost a shitton; he would probably lose much more vs the practice partners though. So far he managed to learn to win vs "foreigners" (sadly not all of them); I think he would learn much more if he spend the time by trying to learn how to win vs real opponents (aka practice partners). If he could win vs the practice partners we could see him on TV. If he can win vs foreigners he can get 10k at least.
On December 28 2009 11:49 Infested Terran wrote: I dont find anything new in Rekrul's post. Maybe most of you had some romantic view of progaming, but it's just like work. Hard work in fact - for 12+ hours a day. It's not "Korean culture". Certain jobs like consulting or (I believe) daytrading require one to invest gigantic effort and time, in a really competitive environment full of people who want to climb up. Although at those other jobs usually you need to cooperate with others to do your job, while in progaming you are on your own - you are responsible for improving your skill in order to win for yourself (just like daytraders). So no "Ill help you cuz I want to go home earlier" stuff. As Rekrul said, if you suck, they will practice with someone else, because it's more benefitial for them. Just like Ret doesnt practice vs D+ players.
During 10 pages of discussion few things have been missed: 1) Ret is a dick. No offense, but his attitude was always bad; he always behaved as if he was the shit. BMing other players (anyone remember that video when he trashtalked Mana(?) and Koll(?)); thinking that he is super skilled yet struggling to go past A-; thinking that he is smarter than everyone. I suppose he argued with the Kors or something; probably practice time. (I share this attitude with him though; Im a dick too, but usually Im right :D) 2) Ret obviously did something bad, which isnt mentioned here. In the other thread there was some mention of fake replays. An explanation would be nice. Chill probably knows what happened but wont reaveal it due to the tl.net hypocrisy (other examples: banning abusers in TSL but not banning abusers during the ILMP fake tourney, who brag in their posts how they solved the "problem") 3) I always wonder how does Idra get so much time to play in all the "foreign" tourneys - e.g. nearly 200 games on iccup is few days of missed practice time. Or maybe the Kors dont want to practice with him either? (ok, saying anything bad about Idra is a bad idea in general because he is an American player and all Americans will defend him, just like the Chinese always defend pj). 4) Progamers are good at starcraft, but I dont think they are good at anything else, because they probably skipped school/dont have much free time. I suppose they speak very poor English or none at all. Just try to chat with a random Korean at iccup. It will be hard, or impossible.
Y'know what? I disagreed with Chill when he criticized ret's fans in the courage thread, but after reading this post, I think I know exactly what he's talking about. This was just unpleasant to read.
I'd just like to dedicate this post to Artosis, whose hospitality and generosity seems to have been lost a bit in this whole debacle. You may sound a bit like a phony TV weatherman when you commentate but your still an excellent human being.
All you guys are fuking bandwagon jumpers. Rekrul post something bad about estro and the koreans and about ret and you all agree.
When I posted something bad about estro and how badly they treated ret and how Estro coaching suck balls, motherfuckers tell me I should "blog it" or that I am very wrong and shouldn't be saying those things against Estro because they've done so much for foreigners.
NeverGG even tell me to watch what I say because Estro coaches lurk this forum. And then I get my thread closed because I am a nobody making a post.
It seems like the only way you can make a thread around here is if you're well known.
On December 28 2009 12:54 toopham wrote: All you guys are fuking bandwagon jumpers. Rekrul post something bad about estro and the koreans and about ret and you all agree.
When I posted something bad about estro and how badly they treated ret and how Estro coaching suck balls, motherfuckers tell me I should "blog it" or that I am very wrong and shouldn't be saying those things against Estro because they've done so much for foreigners.
NeverGG even tell me to watch what I say because Estro coaches lurk this forum. And then I get my thread closed because I am a nobody making a post.
It seems like the only way you can make a thread around here is if you're well known.
it's just fucking sad.
theres a difference because you are talking out of your ass, but rekrul is talking from experience
On December 28 2009 06:45 Chill wrote: Agreed on every point.
Actually, even though it's public knowledge, I never knew how progaming actually worked until I was in Korea. You don't have a life. You follow their schedule, day in, day out, for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's not exciting to live in Korea because you can't fucking talk to anyone because they don't speak English, you don't have time to learn Korean, and you don't have time to actually step outside and see any of Seoul.
If anything, Idra deserves ridiculous amounts of credit for doing what he's done for so long. I know I wouldn't last 3 days. I'm completely serious.
Didnt you laugh at someone else on the other thread for saying the same thing?
On December 28 2009 12:54 toopham wrote: All you guys are fuking bandwagon jumpers. Rekrul post something bad about estro and the koreans and about ret and you all agree.
When I posted something bad about estro and how badly they treated ret and how Estro coaching suck balls, motherfuckers tell me I should "blog it" or that I am very wrong and shouldn't be saying those things against Estro because they've done so much for foreigners.
NeverGG even tell me to watch what I say because Estro coaches lurk this forum. And then I get my thread closed because I am a nobody making a post.
It seems like the only way you can make a thread around here is if you're well known.
it's just fucking sad.
it is the way it is but only to some degree. being known or not is an important factor , often. still its just it. if u will write your post and u will be able to use that Awerness then u will be able to get the reaction u you want, even with this obstacle.
anyways rekrul`s post is brilliant , won`t you agree ? he uses the fact that he is known in a skilled way : >
On December 28 2009 12:05 Infested Terran wrote: Let's assume that: I am a trainer of Idra. I want Idra to improve.
Idra tells me "hey dude, I will waste x days or practice time to play 80 games vs D-B "newbs" on iccup, and then maybe 80 other beneficial games vs A- people - mostly foreigners/maybe some Kors who can publish my replays. If I do well, I can win some money - for me - not the team".
Would you agree on that if you wanted your player to improve? Or would you agree if you thought he won't achieve much?
btw. I believe that the pros share accounts because they dont want to climb the ladder (and to some degree they want to stay anonymous). They play to practice the game and you practice best vs hard opponents; thus playing 70 or more games just to reach A is a waste of time for them.
Ironic that the crux of your position is based around the time that would be invested to achieve the rank and play in the tournament when one of the major discussions about ret/progaming is the sheer number of hours spent each day, regimented, spent playing starcraft.
How on earth will Idra find time to play a few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks then a handful of games over the course of a couple of months. IMPOSSIBLE.
You definitely dont understand the 'play vs best opponents possible all the time - in order to improve as fast as possible' perspective. If you play to win, you always practice vs best; no few games here and there or rather "few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks".
Although he is playing in TSL for money. From his point of view it might be ok; if I were his couch Id be angry that he wastes time playing newbs (ok, maybe last 50 games vs A Koreans were useful; rest - waste of time; and yes I believe that non-Koreans are much worse than random practice partners).
I guess there is something you don't understand either. Something that all gamers have to deal with and even Flash isn't perfect at. Performing under pressure. The experience Idra gets participating in all these foreign tournaments is more valuable than the time lost playing against korean practice partners. Consider the ridiculous amount of time they spend in the first place, he's still spending a lot of time doing that.
I thought the post was funny and interesting. I didn't know that anyone actually thought that Korea wasn't a completely rigid society, but to characterize it as slavery might be a bit extreme... Though this is Rekrul so I just tone down everything he says by a level and it should be accurate.
On December 28 2009 13:25 Waxangel wrote: the post was too long, but I skimmed through it a little.
A bunch of white people generalizing about Koreans, I'm a little bit amused.
On December 28 2009 12:54 toopham wrote: All you guys are fuking bandwagon jumpers. Rekrul post something bad about estro and the koreans and about ret and you all agree.
When I posted something bad about estro and how badly they treated ret and how Estro coaching suck balls, motherfuckers tell me I should "blog it" or that I am very wrong and shouldn't be saying those things against Estro because they've done so much for foreigners.
NeverGG even tell me to watch what I say because Estro coaches lurk this forum. And then I get my thread closed because I am a nobody making a post.
It seems like the only way you can make a thread around here is if you're well known.
it's just fucking sad.
@toopham....so true. seriously is rekrul telling us something new? pls stop sucking rekruls dick and pretending that these facts are new....of course korean pg's have no life...we all now that they are practicing all day but thats the sacrifice they bring to chase their dreams. and if really anybody believes that somebody from the west could adapt from one day to another to any asian culture is a complete retard. no offense but honestly does really anybody believe that idra or ret could make a pl appearance? i mean skillwise dont even think about it....the only other chance with decent skill would be through good looks, like rekrul said korean are superficial and obsessed with beauty ideals. but unfortunately idra or ret do not look like daniel henney to create some kind of hype for the team.
Just to add to Rekrul's otherwise excellent post. This is not exclusive to just progaming in Korea but to Korea as a whole. It's a part of their social structure no matter what you want to do there.
Ret came in after the peak of SC1 progaming in Korea. How the fuck do people expect Ret to achieve the same shit other foreigners achieved.
If Ret is unhappy, time to pack that shit up and leave. Come back when new opportunities such as SC2 present itself.
Rekrul is pretty arrogant, but his words carry alot more weight than anyone else because he has been to ground zero and has many connections. However, please quit sucking his dick.
If it's something you really want to try, then why the hell not? I don't think any of the foreigners who have been in Korea (including nony and ret) regret going and giving it their best effort, but obviously I can't speak for them. If you're determined and talented enough, you can make it happen. However, I do think that a big mistake foreigners always make is not bothering to learn any of the language before they go. They should most definitely make an effort to learn at least some of it, since communication in a team environment can increase your rate of improvement tremendously.
This is a great post but I feel as if I've read it before. Oh wait, it's because I have. Rekrul pretty much posted these exact same truths almost one year ago when Nony left Korea. To me it seems we want to forget and pray that the next foreigner will be the one to defy gravity and make it in the Korean scene. It's a vicious cycle, and as long as foreigners keep coming over, history is doomed to repeat itself, as usual.
On December 28 2009 10:06 miseiler wrote: God I wish some people in science had half the balls Rekrul does.
It's such an incredible skill...being able to tell someone that what they're doing is stupid. Too much time is wasted in my line of work when all they needed was a Rekrul to tell them, 'Just fucking stop. This is stupid.'
I disagree ... if anyone else made this post they'd be banned.
On December 28 2009 13:37 Mystlord wrote: I thought the post was funny and interesting. I didn't know that anyone actually thought that Korea wasn't a completely rigid society, but to characterize it as slavery might be a bit extreme... Though this is Rekrul so I just tone down everything he says by a level and it should be accurate.
On December 28 2009 13:25 Waxangel wrote: the post was too long, but I skimmed through it a little.
A bunch of white people generalizing about Koreans, I'm a little bit amused.
Go on then, offer your opinion.
Basically Wax is amused (as am I) because people think they know Korea, but they only know Korea as much as they know the progaming scene (which is to say, Zero), yet they feel like sharing their opinions anyway.
On December 28 2009 12:54 toopham wrote: All you guys are fuking bandwagon jumpers. Rekrul post something bad about estro and the koreans and about ret and you all agree.
When I posted something bad about estro and how badly they treated ret and how Estro coaching suck balls, motherfuckers tell me I should "blog it" or that I am very wrong and shouldn't be saying those things against Estro because they've done so much for foreigners.
NeverGG even tell me to watch what I say because Estro coaches lurk this forum. And then I get my thread closed because I am a nobody making a post.
It seems like the only way you can make a thread around here is if you're well known.
it's just fucking sad.
"Thou shall respect forum veterans".
It is quite obvious, and it has even been proofed, that practicing too much a real sport is a bad thing. The physical drawbacks are obvious to everyone.
E-sports induce some physical backwards too, but most of them are psychological, they're not obvious and they're perceived as a personal weakness despite the fact that the neurotransmitters involved are the same as those involved in a strain for example... It gives the illusion that "the more practice you can get the better it is", that is incorrect, that is just plain wrong... Sure for some players it is almost true but not for everyone, most of them are actually underperforming when fallowing a strict schedule and excessive training hours. Notice how the CS WMF team can't hold a handle to FnATIC and SK gaming, or how Moon who won nearly 300 000 dollars of prize monney in 2007-2008 didn't win any single tournament soon after he joined WMF.
Wtf guys... practicing 10-12 hours a day 7days/7 ? Is that necessarily better than 8 hours a day with a day off ? No wonder why 95% of the SC pros suddenly crash after 2 years at the top…
Be all certain that SK, MYM, WE (chinese), MOUZ, FNATIC, mb even EG, will all have a prestigious SC2 squad soon after its release. Be also sure that a lot of foreign tournaments/leagues will be created, and I know that it might sound crazy to some of you, but they will allow you to say "gl hf" along with VV without disqualifying you.
Koreans are the pionneers of the E-sport, that is a fact, but their way of adapting it is tightly linked to their culture and the stupidity of their E-sport managers (aka kespa). Their way of dealing with it is not a model that we should blindly copy.
On December 28 2009 12:54 toopham wrote: All you guys are fuking bandwagon jumpers. Rekrul post something bad about estro and the koreans and about ret and you all agree.
When I posted something bad about estro and how badly they treated ret and how Estro coaching suck balls, motherfuckers tell me I should "blog it" or that I am very wrong and shouldn't be saying those things against Estro because they've done so much for foreigners.
NeverGG even tell me to watch what I say because Estro coaches lurk this forum. And then I get my thread closed because I am a nobody making a post.
It seems like the only way you can make a thread around here is if you're well known.
it's just fucking sad.
"Thou shall respect forum veterans".
It is quite obvious, and it has even been proofed, that practicing too much a real sport is a bad thing. The physical drawbacks are obvious to everyone.
E-sports induce some physical backwards too, but most of them are psychological, they're not obvious and they're perceived as a personal weakness despite the fact that the neurotransmitters involved are the same as those involved in a strain for example... It gives the illusion that "the more practice you can get the better it is", that is incorrect, that is just plain wrong... Sure for some players it is almost true but not for everyone, most of them are actually underperforming when fallowing a strict schedule and excessive training hours. Notice how the CS WMF team can't hold a handle to FnATIC and SK gaming, or how Moon who won nearly 300 000 dollars of prize monney in 2007-2008 didn't win any single tournament soon after he joined WMF.
Wtf guys... practicing 10-12 hours a day 7days/7 ? Is that necessarily better than 8 hours a day with a day off ? No wonder why 95% of the SC pros suddenly crash after 2 years at the top…
Be all certain that SK, MYM, WE (chinese), MOUZ, FNATIC, mb even EG, will all have a prestigious SC2 squad soon after its release. Be also sure that a lot of foreign tournaments/leagues will be created, and I know that it might sound crazy to some of you, but they will allow you to say "gl hf" along with VV without disqualifying you.
Koreans are the pionneers of the E-sport, that is a fact, but their way of adapting it is tightly linked to their culture and the stupidity of their E-sport managers (aka kespa). Their way of dealing with it is not a model that we should blindly copy.
Nice post, I expect and hope all of this will happen
On December 28 2009 13:51 Athos wrote: This is a great post but I feel as if I've read it before. Oh wait, it's because I have. Rekrul pretty much posted these exact same truths almost one year ago when Nony left Korea. To me it seems we want to forget and pray that the next foreigner will be the one to defy gravity and make it in the Korean scene. It's a vicious cycle, and as long as foreigners keep coming over, history is doomed to repeat itself, as usual.
well, idra in a certain way is an exception. he established himself on the b-team level and i think one day he will get tv-time on minor league. but at the same time i think this, the 2nd tier of professional sc, is the most any foreigner could still achieve in sc1 at this point in time.
the decisive question will be whether the western world will be ready for a professional gaming environment when sc2 is released. if it´s not, then progaming will remain a korean-only thing and in the long run, no foreigner will stay successful at it.
even if all the theories about foreigners being more creative and having a better grasp of metagame were true, there is still the disadvantage of limited communication which seriously decreases the training´s effectiveness.
if ret decides to leave korea, as it´s looking like right now, it´d be a pity but not too much of a surprise. to me though, the true implication of rekruls post is that even with sc2 there would be no chance for a foreigner to establish himself as an A-teamer of a korean proteam, at least not in the long run. his assessment does not only imply that for sc1 its pretty much pointless to dream about truly successful foreigners, it also should be seen as a serious setback for all of us who fantasize about "us" owning the koreans once sc2 comes out.
anyways, i wish ret the best of luck and hope everything turns out fine for him, no matter which option he chooses for his future.
This is what happens with all sports thought, if you want to play professionally you have SLIM AND I MEAN VERY slim odds of making it to the big time. And i just have to say that when he said SC skills won't transfer to SC2 i almost stopped reading the post :\ Obviously if you started playing starcraft for 5 years then go out and buy warcraft 3 you're not a completely lost when it comes to the fundamentals of the game.
On December 28 2009 12:54 toopham wrote: All you guys are fuking bandwagon jumpers. Rekrul post something bad about estro and the koreans and about ret and you all agree.
When I posted something bad about estro and how badly they treated ret and how Estro coaching suck balls, motherfuckers tell me I should "blog it" or that I am very wrong and shouldn't be saying those things against Estro because they've done so much for foreigners.
NeverGG even tell me to watch what I say because Estro coaches lurk this forum. And then I get my thread closed because I am a nobody making a post.
It seems like the only way you can make a thread around here is if you're well known.
it's just fucking sad.
lol it might be because your thread was titled "Are Estro Players all retards?"
On December 28 2009 13:37 Mystlord wrote: I thought the post was funny and interesting. I didn't know that anyone actually thought that Korea wasn't a completely rigid society, but to characterize it as slavery might be a bit extreme... Though this is Rekrul so I just tone down everything he says by a level and it should be accurate.
On December 28 2009 13:25 Waxangel wrote: the post was too long, but I skimmed through it a little.
A bunch of white people generalizing about Koreans, I'm a little bit amused.
Go on then, offer your opinion.
Basically Wax is amused (as am I) because people think they know Korea, but they only know Korea as much as they know the progaming scene (which is to say, Zero), yet they feel like sharing their opinions anyway.
Well they why don't you guys tell us what we have wrong instead of just laughing at us? I think that's the opinion he was looking for ;d
On December 28 2009 14:14 Saturnize wrote: This is what happens with all sports thought, if you want to play professionally you have SLIM AND I MEAN VERY slim odds of making it to the big time. And i just have to say that when he said SC skills won't transfer to SC2 i almost stopped reading the post :\ Obviously if you started playing starcraft for 5 years then go out and buy warcraft 3 you're not a completely lost when it comes to the fundamentals of the game.
yeah, but how much is a random B player behind ret, idra, sea at wc3? Enough to make all the extra time playing sc worth it?
I'm surprised anyone was surprised or impressed by what rekrul posted here. To me it seemed like he was just stating the obvious and what's been talked about on this forum so many times before (being a progamer in Korea is hard even for a Korean and more so for a foreigner).
On December 28 2009 13:37 Mystlord wrote: I thought the post was funny and interesting. I didn't know that anyone actually thought that Korea wasn't a completely rigid society, but to characterize it as slavery might be a bit extreme... Though this is Rekrul so I just tone down everything he says by a level and it should be accurate.
On December 28 2009 13:25 Waxangel wrote: the post was too long, but I skimmed through it a little.
A bunch of white people generalizing about Koreans, I'm a little bit amused.
Go on then, offer your opinion.
Basically Wax is amused (as am I) because people think they know Korea, but they only know Korea as much as they know the progaming scene (which is to say, Zero), yet they feel like sharing their opinions anyway.
Well I'd like to know what you think about what Rekrul said or about Korean society in general rather than general, overarching statements.
I know little to nothing about what life is like in Korea, but all I know is that it's an extremely competitive society, at least in terms of both education and sports. I think it's fair to translate that extreme competitiveness to the e-sports environment considering how those who aspire to become progamers are dropping out of school, which I'd assume is very troubling to most parents. If we look at the e-sports microcosm, I think it's fair to make this basic assumption. As for Rekrul's comments on xenophobia and appearances, I can see where you'd disagree with him on that.
If your arguement is that what I posted was wrong so therefore it should be closed then you're a fucking retard. This is a forum, not wikipedia. I get to post how I feel about a certain matter. And if you disagree then you have the right to post something back telling me I am wrong and I will have no problem with it.
but to say I am wrong, I should "blog it", then close my thread is pretty pathetic. This is not a forum anymore. More like "Post what we want to hear/discuss or we will close it".
Nice post overall, should be a good reality check for most people here on TL.
However, as it was mentioned previously, many things were exaggerated in the OP in my opinion, but if you're willing to believe the OP word for word then you're just as blind as people mentioned the OP.
If your arguement is that what I posted was wrong so therefore it should be closed then you're a fucking retard. This is a forum, not wikipedia. I get to post how I feel about a certain matter. And if you disagree then you have the right to post something back telling me I am wrong and I will have no problem with it.
but to say I am wrong, I should "blog it", then close my thread is pretty pathetic. This is not a forum anymore. More like "Post what we want to hear/discuss or we will close it".
If your arguement is that what I posted was wrong so therefore it should be closed then you're a fucking retard. This is a forum, not wikipedia. I get to post how I feel about a certain matter. And if you disagree then you have the right to post something back telling me I am wrong and I will have no problem with it.
but to say I am wrong, I should "blog it", then close my thread is pretty pathetic. This is not a forum anymore. More like "Post what we want to hear/discuss or we will close it".
I agree, but sadly i don't make the rules :\
i'll give u an example, who would u believe when they tell u that catholic church is a farse? a drunkard by the street or the pope? its called credibility and respect, even if ur words are true, ppl aren't gonna wanna listen to u unless u have them... just a fictional example but yea u get the point.
On December 28 2009 14:47 HazMat wrote: Why is everyone assuming Starcraft2 will become an E-sport?
because blizz is gonna throw the cash they earned from WoW to make it E-Sport...
This is amusing :D TSL Drama and Ret's endeavors in Korea are good entertainment!
Let me just post something again.
To those saying that we are sucking Rek's dick because he pointed out something we all know:
No. Dipshit. That's not the case. The fact that you ASSUMED that things were the way they are doesn't mean EVERY SINGLE PERSON knows this. As a matter of fact I've been following SC for quite a while now, I was around when IdrA first got invited, I was around when NonY got invited and now Ret, and let me tell you, that I didn't know that there was more to it that the fact that they don't know Korean. It's not the same when they say you have to practice 10 hours a day in order to be good than when they say they DEMAND you play 10 hours a day to stay on the team. Big difference specially for people that are familiar with eSports outside of Korea (like myself).
On the other hand... Yes you moron. If anyone else posted this they SHOULD get banned. Why? Because tehy would be talking out of their ass! And why is it acceptable for Rek to post it? BECAUSE HE'S FUCKING REKRUL! I'm not even kidding. Who else has the insight he has? Artosis. Period. So if hes saying something about a topic that is being discussed, a topic that people have commented on without any knowledge of the reality, you listen, and adjust your opinion accordingly. Even if some of his points are speculation, his guess is better than yours because he has a much better view of the situation.
To the people saying that Rek's doesn't have knowledge of Korean culture outside of the Korean gaming community:
I'm sorry I thought that Rek was in Korea for Poker not SC or am I missing something? Funny enough none of the guys posting that are from Korea and the ones that had said they have been there (for longer than a simple vacation) agree with him...
Enough of Rekrul. Another point:
In what bubble do you live in if you think that only in Korea there are established eSport leagues? WTH do you think MLG is? And guess what, the pro Halo players in the states make more money than the Korean players! Tsquared signed a deal with Dr.Pepper to print 115 MILLION bottles with his name, signature and face on. A penny for each bottle sold it's 1.15 million dollars for a picture. Walshy and the Ogre twins both had million dollar contracts back when they played Halo 2, they must be higher now since the MLG has grown.
Outside of Korea there might not be many leagues but there are a million tournaments. You don't need leagues you need tournaments and if you want to know if there are any tournaments out there as big as the Korean proleague go check out this year's WCG.
This past year eSports looked bad outside of Korea. The economical crisis and the stupid management of both leagues and teams made eSports look on the brink of extinction, but the year turned out to be pretty good for gaming in general.
If you think that eSports won't survive long enough for SC2 and if you think that eSports wont get bigger after SC2 comes out... Do some research my friend. The videogame industry is the one that moves the most money in the Americas and no matter what game it is there will be people willing to compete in it.
Don't get your point shizuru, you basically said just because you have more power you are more correct. -_- Nevermind i don't want the thread to go off topic.
Wow I'm impressed Rekrul, all things considered that was a fair foreigner post.
As for the "real" aspects of korea some here have mentioned, unless you are korea born korean it's kinda pointless for this forum. lol why mention it?
The thing with the weight though is true lol. Heck it's true here in the US, only that we have more heavies and our 90 pound bag of bones is their thin.
If your arguement is that what I posted was wrong so therefore it should be closed then you're a fucking retard. This is a forum, not wikipedia. I get to post how I feel about a certain matter. And if you disagree then you have the right to post something back telling me I am wrong and I will have no problem with it.
but to say I am wrong, I should "blog it", then close my thread is pretty pathetic. This is not a forum anymore. More like "Post what we want to hear/discuss or we will close it".
Even if you're right about "post only what we want to hear." You aren't really making a case for yourself by writing what seemed to be vulgar slander against the folks of eStro. So unless you're speaking from experience I wouldn't have even dignified a response to that thread.
Rek may be a crass individual, but there's a certain quality to his posts. They have charisma and, well, he has a history, experience and respect to back up his posts.
When I read your posts, I see frustrated invidual who points fingers at people and doesn't know how to articulate himself.
When I read Rekrul's posts, I see frustrated individual who knows how to articulates himself very well and illuminates on a subject with sound logic (without pointing blame on anyone really, he's quite ambiguous when labeling faults) and a history that says he knows what he speaks.
On December 28 2009 14:47 HazMat wrote: Why is everyone assuming Starcraft2 will become an E-sport?
It will be, but then again even wc3 (with all of it's serious drawbacks, imbalances and stagnant map pool) is an esport.
But yeah, I don't get the general feeling of 'SC2 will save us all!' that many posters have taken up over the past year or so either. I certainly don't think it will replace SC in Korea anytime soon, if ever. New games are great, but you need something really fucking amazing to replace the most skill-based and balanced RTS of all time.
Ret came to Korea to do one thing, one thing only. It's a tall order, but Ret's commitment to the cause shouldn't have stopped at packing things and buying a plane ticket.
Abiding to eSTRO's training methods and regiment is what Ret should've done first, next step being slowly learning to communicate and bonding with Korean players and getting in some real practice time. Those basic principles apply to anybody willing to join any new community, be it a sports team (in this case e-sports), a job collective or even as simple as a new living location. (fascinating stuff here)
Obviously we don't know every detail of Ret - eSTRO relationship, as Rekrul for some reason forgot to put a 2nd fact into his politician's speech after "Fat people are treated differently/worse". As groundbreaking as that sounds, I'm sure everyone could asses the situation more carefully if Ret or Artosis were to speak details, rather than blaming team training regiment, diet, internal rules and "cultural differences". Because everybody involved chose the politician's approach, you get what you get: one side blaming eSTRO, second falling out on Ret, third trying to enlighten the crown on how difficult it is playing by somebody else's rules.
Interesting read... I wasn't aware of all these things and now regret alot of comments that I've made... So, when are we gonna see a pro team for people speaking english only? . . . And a league where kespa doesn't have the power?
On December 28 2009 14:47 HazMat wrote: Why is everyone assuming Starcraft2 will become an E-sport?
It will be, but then again even wc3 (with all of it's serious drawbacks, imbalances and stagnant map pool) is an esport.
But yeah, I don't get the general feeling of 'SC2 will save us all!' that many posters have taken up over the past year or so either. I certainly don't think it will replace SC in Korea anytime soon, if ever. New games are great, but you need something really fucking amazing to replace the most skill-based and balanced RTS of all time.
SC2 will replace SC as long as the game is passable and the sponsors are willing to make the switch. Both points are quite easily satisfiable if you ask me.
On December 28 2009 15:52 XsebT wrote: Interesting read... I wasn't aware of all these things and now regret alot of comments that I've made... So, when are we gonna see a pro team for people speaking english only? . . . And a league where kespa doesn't have the power?
Only thing you need for that is a huge foreign community (logically containing some very good players) to attract the sponsors.
how do you invite someone from another country who doesn't know ZvZ to your professional team? how can you not give proper support to that same person? they left him out in the streets in korea, the people who made him live an ilusion... it wasn't only ret's decision to go to another country, the staff is also involved in the process.
all that is happening to ret and all what rekrul said about korean people makes me feel like not watching korean e-sports anymore. anything related to korea tbh.
On December 28 2009 08:25 Xiphos wrote: But to be honest, becoming a doctor probably takes less effort than a Progamer
uh not really LOL
Anyway, it seems that many of the posters here are applying their standards to another society and another culture, which is probably a bad idea. Most of the posters here are from America, which was built on the backs of immigrants. It's a place where people from all over the world live next door to one another, especially in big cities like San Francisco, Chicago, Boston, New York, etc. etc. Korea on the other hand is a nation filled with an overwhelming majority of Koreans. The demographics have been like that for centuries and everyone has the same culture, same language, etc. You can't just go to a different country and expect to be accepted instantly. Humans have a natural preponderance towards labeling themselves and associating themselves with groups for protection. If you look different, know very little, if anything at all about the culture, and don't even speak the language at a conversational level, you cannot possibly expect to be welcomed with open arms. You also can't expect a nation like Korea to be as progressive as the United States, which just a few decades ago disallowed blacks from attending the same schools, shopping at the same stores or even drinking at the same water fountain. Even now, race is still a huge issue, except that now people try to circumvent it by attempting to pretend that differences don't exist (they do).
Progaming takes a lot of effort and it's almost impossible to get anywhere. It's all nice to watch people like Jaedong or Bisu rock the scene for a few weeks but we don't get to see what's behind all the supposed glamor of winning games or even tournaments. It's easy to see hyuk or fbh and demean their playing style and call them idiots or noobs when they lose. But these are the guys that have the skills to be televised; there are tons of people stuck on the B team or whatever that could probably easily dominate iccup, but will never get the chance to shine and retire before they even get a chance to make their name known.
If you aren't willing to put in the work and the effort necessary, don't bother. The team is there for the team, not for the individual. If you want to gain skill, make sure you're good and ready. If you fly out to Korea, you're the one that's looking to gain; it's not the team's job to make sure that you're adjusting well and to baby you every step of the way. There are hundreds of kids wanting to be progamers who are just as good, if not better, than you that have the advantage of actually being able to understand what's being said to them.
On December 28 2009 14:29 toopham wrote: if you guys wanna see my epic rant that got closed here it is
If your arguement is that what I posted was wrong so therefore it should be closed then you're a fucking retard. This is a forum, not wikipedia. I get to post how I feel about a certain matter. And if you disagree then you have the right to post something back telling me I am wrong and I will have no problem with it.
but to say I am wrong, I should "blog it", then close my thread is pretty pathetic. This is not a forum anymore. More like "Post what we want to hear/discuss or we will close it".
Your epic rant ROFL More like your stupid post from two months with a terrible title that everyone disagreed with and also happened to be written in terrible English. When there are red lines below your words, it means that you probably spelled it wrong. A handy tip: if you right click, it gives you suggestions for the proper spelling which would be nice since it would help your posts be worth reading, despite your ridiculous opinions.
Rekrul constantly telling us that we don't know what the fuck is going on just doesn't seem so right to me. Is he ret's BFF? Does he know exactly what ret experienced? He also mentions ret, Idra, and Nony's personality types. I'm pretty sure he don't know any of them well enough to make those kinds of claims about them. I'm pretty sure ret, Idra, and Nony are the only ones who can tell their story and their experiences in aspiring to be a progamer in Korea. This isn't reality, this is speculation from Rekrul. Just because he attempted the same thing and went to Korea doesn't mean the circumstances are the same and you can speak for others who came after.
On December 28 2009 17:02 RyanS wrote: Rekrul constantly telling us that we don't know what the fuck is going on just doesn't seem so right to me. Is he ret's BFF? Does he know exactly what ret experienced? He also mentions ret, Idra, and Nony's personality types. I'm pretty sure he don't know any of them well enough to make those kinds of claims about them. I'm pretty sure ret, Idra, and Nony are the only ones who can tell their story and their experiences in aspiring to be a progamer in Korea. This isn't reality, this is speculation from Rekrul. Just because he attempted the same thing and went to Korea doesn't mean the circumstances are the same and you can speak for others who came after.
He definitely knows what Ret has experienced. If I remember correctly, he was a part of POS (the old MBC).
On December 28 2009 17:02 RyanS wrote: Rekrul constantly telling us that we don't know what the fuck is going on just doesn't seem so right to me. Is he ret's BFF? Does he know exactly what ret experienced? He also mentions ret, Idra, and Nony's personality types. I'm pretty sure he don't know any of them well enough to make those kinds of claims about them. I'm pretty sure ret, Idra, and Nony are the only ones who can tell their story and their experiences in aspiring to be a progamer in Korea. This isn't reality, this is speculation from Rekrul. Just because he attempted the same thing and went to Korea doesn't mean the circumstances are the same and you can speak for others who came after.
I will bet everything I own, have owned, and ever will own that Idra and Nony have completely different sets of priorities and that Idra's are much more well-suited to being a progamer in Korea.
On December 28 2009 17:02 RyanS wrote: Rekrul constantly telling us that we don't know what the fuck is going on just doesn't seem so right to me. Is he ret's BFF? Does he know exactly what ret experienced? He also mentions ret, Idra, and Nony's personality types. I'm pretty sure he don't know any of them well enough to make those kinds of claims about them. I'm pretty sure ret, Idra, and Nony are the only ones who can tell their story and their experiences in aspiring to be a progamer in Korea. This isn't reality, this is speculation from Rekrul. Just because he attempted the same thing and went to Korea doesn't mean the circumstances are the same and you can speak for others who came after.
He definitely knows what Ret has experienced. If I remember correctly, he was a part of POS (the old MBC).
He was apart of Hexatron, Assem and Leg were on POS before moving to Hexatron.
On December 28 2009 17:02 RyanS wrote: Rekrul constantly telling us that we don't know what the fuck is going on just doesn't seem so right to me. Is he ret's BFF? Does he know exactly what ret experienced? He also mentions ret, Idra, and Nony's personality types. I'm pretty sure he don't know any of them well enough to make those kinds of claims about them. I'm pretty sure ret, Idra, and Nony are the only ones who can tell their story and their experiences in aspiring to be a progamer in Korea. This isn't reality, this is speculation from Rekrul. Just because he attempted the same thing and went to Korea doesn't mean the circumstances are the same and you can speak for others who came after.
I'm sure that you are more familiar with both Ret and Rekrul than anyone else. By all means, please grace us with a post that counters Rekrul's points, rather than casting aspersions using vague accusations.
sry, but stop crying about the difficulty of learning korean... If you want to live and 'work' there learn the fucking language... And the difficulty of it is no excuse... half year spending like 20-25 hours a week is more then enough to learn enough korean to be able to basic communincate and make topic related detailed conversations (if you want to play SC there, then you will learn all the important things for that easily and quickly... so talking about reps should be no prob at all) You will by far not speak great Korean, but enough for basic stuff and for whatever you focus on. But just jumping in without any preps or plan is not so great...
And yes, i tried and did it, while studying Baduk meanwhile in korea (another hopeless task for a westerner :D)
good post rekrul personally i think it's too late in SC's cycle to attempt the jump to progamer level best to just wait till sc2 is out then try with that
On December 28 2009 14:47 HazMat wrote: Why is everyone assuming Starcraft2 will become an E-sport?
It will be, but then again even wc3 (with all of it's serious drawbacks, imbalances and stagnant map pool) is an esport.
But yeah, I don't get the general feeling of 'SC2 will save us all!' that many posters have taken up over the past year or so either. I certainly don't think it will replace SC in Korea anytime soon, if ever. New games are great, but you need something really fucking amazing to replace the most skill-based and balanced RTS of all time.
SC2 will replace SC as long as the game is passable and the sponsors are willing to make the switch. Both points are quite easily satisfiable if you ask me.
Third point. The Koreans need to dominate the game and dominate it quickly.
Like it or not, majority of e-sport sponsors and audiences are in South Korea.
War3 failed because no Korean ever dominated it early on. Even Moon failed at WCG multiple times .
Oh ret Ret is such a nice guy that it is basically impossible not to like him. Thus sadness for him is sadness for me. But I'm sure he will get through it and be super-pro at life. Thanks Rekrul for this article. It put a lot of this stuffs in context. <3 Ret, and thx Rek.
On December 28 2009 08:25 Xiphos wrote: But to be honest, becoming a doctor probably takes less effort than a Progamer
uh not really LOL
Yeah, this isn't a case of effort. It's talent, definitely takes far more talent to be a progamer. Some of the ones that do become progamers probably do so with less effort than becoming a doctor. But far more people could become doctors than progamers.
On December 28 2009 08:25 Xiphos wrote: But to be honest, becoming a doctor probably takes less effort than a Progamer
uh not really LOL
Yeah, this isn't a case of effort. It's talent, definitely takes far more talent to be a progamer. Some of the ones that do become progamers probably do so with less effort than becoming a doctor. But far more people could become doctors than progamers.
LOL yeah because it's so hard to play games compared to saving lives right? Try doing a residency, the hours will make your progaming schedule look easy. And if you lose a game, who gives a shit? Fuck up in the hospital and someone can lose their life.
On December 28 2009 17:31 mahrgell wrote: sry, but stop crying about the difficulty of learning korean... If you want to live and 'work' there learn the fucking language... And the difficulty of it is no excuse... half year spending like 20-25 hours a week is more then enough to learn enough korean to be able to basic communincate and make topic related detailed conversations (if you want to play SC there, then you will learn all the important things for that easily and quickly... so talking about reps should be no prob at all) You will by far not speak great Korean, but enough for basic stuff and for whatever you focus on. But just jumping in without any preps or plan is not so great...
And yes, i tried and did it, while studying Baduk meanwhile in korea (another hopeless task for a westerner :D)
i dont think progamers (or foreign progamers) have 20-25 hours a week to spare. when the have "free" time, they probably want to rest instead of studying (which is quite mentally demanding if you're serious about it; if not, then the effort is wasted). and sc requires a lot of brain power (in that you have to concentrate all the time on many things)
On December 28 2009 08:25 Xiphos wrote: But to be honest, becoming a doctor probably takes less effort than a Progamer
uh not really LOL
Yeah, this isn't a case of effort. It's talent, definitely takes far more talent to be a progamer. Some of the ones that do become progamers probably do so with less effort than becoming a doctor. But far more people could become doctors than progamers.
LOL yeah because it's so hard to play games compared to saving lives right? Try doing a residency, the hours will make your progaming schedule look easy. And if you lose a game, who gives a shit? Fuck up in the hospital and someone can lose their life.
Making it in progaming is probably more talent-based, while making it as a doctor is probably more based on effort. I mean, pretty much any asian parent knows their kid can be a doctor or lawyer with enough effort ,which is why they push their kids to follow such careers with high yield and high success rate provided they give enough effort.
Obviously progaming requires tremendous dedication and effort as well, but without talent you aren't going to make it, while I think that most people can become a doctor if they just decide on that career path and put enough effort into making it happen. So yeah, far more people could become doctors than progamers.
obviously rek is right, but nothing too insightful in there imo, everybody with half a brain whos not completely ignorant of foreign cultures can imagine how progaming in south korea goes down.
On December 28 2009 17:31 mahrgell wrote: sry, but stop crying about the difficulty of learning korean... If you want to live and 'work' there learn the fucking language... And the difficulty of it is no excuse... half year spending like 20-25 hours a week is more then enough to learn enough korean to be able to basic communincate and make topic related detailed conversations (if you want to play SC there, then you will learn all the important things for that easily and quickly... so talking about reps should be no prob at all) You will by far not speak great Korean, but enough for basic stuff and for whatever you focus on. But just jumping in without any preps or plan is not so great...
And yes, i tried and did it, while studying Baduk meanwhile in korea (another hopeless task for a westerner :D)
i dont think progamers (or foreign progamers) have 20-25 hours a week to spare. when the have "free" time, they probably want to rest instead of studying (which is quite mentally demanding if you're serious about it; if not, then the effort is wasted). and sc requires a lot of brain power (in that you have to concentrate all the time on many things)
then maybe prepare the stay better? That was what i was pointing at... Ret is now how long in korea? 2 month? 2,5? nothing... Why is it expected, that he is immediatly integrated in everything and part of the business?
On December 28 2009 14:47 HazMat wrote: Why is everyone assuming Starcraft2 will become an E-sport?
It will be, but then again even wc3 (with all of it's serious drawbacks, imbalances and stagnant map pool) is an esport.
But yeah, I don't get the general feeling of 'SC2 will save us all!' that many posters have taken up over the past year or so either. I certainly don't think it will replace SC in Korea anytime soon, if ever. New games are great, but you need something really fucking amazing to replace the most skill-based and balanced RTS of all time.
SC2 will replace SC as long as the game is passable and the sponsors are willing to make the switch. Both points are quite easily satisfiable if you ask me.
Third point. The Koreans need to dominate the game and dominate it quickly.
Like it or not, majority of e-sport sponsors and audiences are in South Korea.
War3 failed because no Korean ever dominated it early on. Even Moon failed at WCG multiple times .
Your post just shows your complete ignorance of the e-sport world.
Majority of SC sponsors and audiences are Koreans. The other e-sport audiences are completly game-dependant (like europe-china for War3 and europe-america for CS) and the majority of sponsors are americans (related to the audience). Second point, War3 failed in Korea because Koreans prefered SC (not because Moon didn't dominate the scene, that's a complete non-sense he basically won everything exept WCG), however, it didn't just "fail", War3 succeeded in Europe and particulary in China and permitted the creation of the well known "Dota" mode.
The only thing that SC2 needs in order to be successful is a huge community attracting sponsors. If it can be half or 1/3 as successful as what SC is in Korea, everywhere else, I guess it would be fine and even way better than the current situation.
On December 28 2009 18:47 TeWy wrote: War3 succeeded in Europe and particulary in China and permitted the creation of the well known "Dota" mode.
err lol no
dota is not a mode, it's not a mod, it's just an ums map - an ums map that was based on the starcraft original.
so much of war3 is just starcraft carryover. all the famous ums maps are created in starcraft.
sc: bw was a completely original rts, it borrows no elements from other games, movies or novels
and you are right DOTA is just a huge rip off of Aeon of Strife
@ lol at this whole thread, just Rekrul telling everyone what we already know (wow progamers practice all day and have no social life? people in foreign countries have trouble accepting people who cant speak their language?)
On December 28 2009 18:47 TeWy wrote: War3 succeeded in Europe and particulary in China and permitted the creation of the well known "Dota" mode.
err lol no
dota is not a mode, it's not a mod, it's just an ums map - an ums map that was based on the starcraft original.
so much of war3 is just starcraft carryover. all the famous ums maps are created in starcraft.
sc: bw was a completely original rts, it borrows no elements from other games, movies or novels
and you are right DOTA is just a huge rip off of Aeon of Strife
get some perspective, will ya? before starcraft no rts has ever had a comprehensive mapeditor. the aeon of strife style game didn't exist before sc. the aeon of strife name should give you plenty clue.
you know why I know this? cus I made it muthafucka. yea that's right. and I know you didn't play it.
back then there was a famous mapping enclave and I was part of that. some of the best ums games and campaigns were made by ppl who hanged out there. the number of different awesome games people made within sc was in-fucking-credible, and they were all different and diverse. the community has given a lot to itself and the game business.
now I don't take credit for making it household, cus the war3 ppl did that. but it's still lock stock recognizable from the original. games still played out in a similar fashion.
On December 28 2009 08:01 GTR wrote: Rekrul comes back, honestly stuff I pretty much knew but it's good to get an actual person who knows this shit to talk about this situation as well.
Progaming is never going to change in Korea from what I see. It's going to follow the same method of K-Pop. Slave contracts, everyone stays in a house, no time to do leisure and extremely difficult to break into.
It'll change if SC2 comes out and it turns out the Korean practice regiment isn't as beneficial as they think it is. There's never been a Western equivalent for SC, like there is for CS, so we don't know if it's really that efficient. In CS, it seems pretty clear that the slave treatment doesn't work.
You can rationally argue that it's because SC relies more on perfect mechanics/timings, whereas there is more freedom and creativity in CS, but until it's actually put into practice in similar situations, we don't know what the difference is.
I don't mean Western pros don't play for 8+ hours a day either, but they also have much more freedom and avoid burnout much better than Korean pro gamers.
On December 28 2009 18:47 TeWy wrote: War3 succeeded in Europe and particulary in China and permitted the creation of the well known "Dota" mode.
err lol no
dota is not a mode, it's not a mod, it's just an ums map - an ums map that was based on the starcraft original.
so much of war3 is just starcraft carryover. all the famous ums maps are created in starcraft.
sc: bw was a completely original rts, it borrows no elements from other games, movies or novels
and you are right DOTA is just a huge rip off of Aeon of Strife
@ lol at this whole thread, just Rekrul telling everyone what we already know (wow progamers practice all day and have no social life? people in foreign countries have trouble accepting people who cant speak their language?)
rekrul said it, so at least the dreamy ones will accept it now, too
On December 28 2009 08:25 Xiphos wrote: But to be honest, becoming a doctor probably takes less effort than a Progamer
uh not really LOL
Yeah, this isn't a case of effort. It's talent, definitely takes far more talent to be a progamer. Some of the ones that do become progamers probably do so with less effort than becoming a doctor. But far more people could become doctors than progamers.
On December 28 2009 08:25 Xiphos wrote: But to be honest, becoming a doctor probably takes less effort than a Progamer
uh not really LOL
Yeah, this isn't a case of effort. It's talent, definitely takes far more talent to be a progamer. Some of the ones that do become progamers probably do so with less effort than becoming a doctor. But far more people could become doctors than progamers.
LOL yeah because it's so hard to play games compared to saving lives right? Try doing a residency, the hours will make your progaming schedule look easy. And if you lose a game, who gives a shit? Fuck up in the hospital and someone can lose their life.
Making it in progaming is probably more talent-based, while making it as a doctor is probably more based on effort. I mean, pretty much any asian parent knows their kid can be a doctor or lawyer with enough effort ,which is why they push their kids to follow such careers with high yield and high success rate provided they give enough effort.
Obviously progaming requires tremendous dedication and effort as well, but without talent you aren't going to make it, while I think that most people can become a doctor if they just decide on that career path and put enough effort into making it happen. So yeah, far more people could become doctors than progamers.
I knonw this is very much of subject. But it's extremely easy to become a medical doctor compared to the difficulties that a programer/musician/artisit/athlete has to put up with. I mean, I think Dark Elf from CJ became a lawyer in about 4 years after quitting progaming. And I'm sure that JD would get his med licence in 1/3 of the time compared to a "regular person" if he wanted to. Hell, even my father got his med licence while only studying 20h/week and playing b ball professionally. Becoming a progamer is a hard and lonely life - like Boxer said in some interview.
And also: omg, I hope Koll doesn't read this thread!!
EDIT: Ooops, not Dark Elf.. some other old CJ player. SDM talked about it in some GOM game.
This "doctor vs progamer" discussion is ridiculous, these two professions are in no way comparable. An aspiring progamer sits in front of his PC and plays a computer game for months and years. Sure, this takes lots of dedication and it sure as hell isn't an easy life, but it is still only a computer game. It does not take much intelligence to be good at starcraft. You shouldn't be dumb, sure, but intelligentwise there are much, much more people able to become a progamer than a doctor. Progamers specialize in exactly one thing: playing starcraft. Doctors have a really wide variety of stuff they have to know/learn.
And I'm sure that JD would get his med licence in 1/3 of the time compared to a "regular person" if he wanted to.
And statements like this are just laughable... Starcraft is a nice game, but it does not help your career in any way (except if it is in ESPORTS of course....)
On December 28 2009 08:25 Xiphos wrote: But to be honest, becoming a doctor probably takes less effort than a Progamer
uh not really LOL
Yeah, this isn't a case of effort. It's talent, definitely takes far more talent to be a progamer. Some of the ones that do become progamers probably do so with less effort than becoming a doctor. But far more people could become doctors than progamers.
LOL yeah because it's so hard to play games compared to saving lives right? Try doing a residency, the hours will make your progaming schedule look easy. And if you lose a game, who gives a shit? Fuck up in the hospital and someone can lose their life.
Making it in progaming is probably more talent-based, while making it as a doctor is probably more based on effort. I mean, pretty much any asian parent knows their kid can be a doctor or lawyer with enough effort ,which is why they push their kids to follow such careers with high yield and high success rate provided they give enough effort.
Obviously progaming requires tremendous dedication and effort as well, but without talent you aren't going to make it, while I think that most people can become a doctor if they just decide on that career path and put enough effort into making it happen. So yeah, far more people could become doctors than progamers.
I mean, I think Dark Elf from CJ became a lawyer in about 4 years after quitting progaming.
darkelf left cj less than a year ago and he played a match for airforce an hour ago
On December 28 2009 08:25 Xiphos wrote: But to be honest, becoming a doctor probably takes less effort than a Progamer
uh not really LOL
Yeah, this isn't a case of effort. It's talent, definitely takes far more talent to be a progamer. Some of the ones that do become progamers probably do so with less effort than becoming a doctor. But far more people could become doctors than progamers.
LOL yeah because it's so hard to play games compared to saving lives right? Try doing a residency, the hours will make your progaming schedule look easy. And if you lose a game, who gives a shit? Fuck up in the hospital and someone can lose their life.
Making it in progaming is probably more talent-based, while making it as a doctor is probably more based on effort. I mean, pretty much any asian parent knows their kid can be a doctor or lawyer with enough effort ,which is why they push their kids to follow such careers with high yield and high success rate provided they give enough effort.
Obviously progaming requires tremendous dedication and effort as well, but without talent you aren't going to make it, while I think that most people can become a doctor if they just decide on that career path and put enough effort into making it happen. So yeah, far more people could become doctors than progamers.
I mean, I think Dark Elf from CJ became a lawyer in about 4 years after quitting progaming.
darkelf left cj less than a year ago and he played a match for airforce an hour ago
TBH, I didn't really need to read a huge wall-of-text type dissertation like this to realize the cold truth about progaming in Korea. What, did everyone think that the 15 hours a day, 7 days a week training schedule that came up all to often in topics around here was just a funny story ?
Besides, why the hell would you want to slave away in one of these modern-day labour camps ? It might suit the Asian style, but not the rest of the world.
SC1 is prolly gonna be over soon anyway and SC2 will level the playing field more or less. Foreigners will NEVER hit it big with SC1. Accept that and move on. Sure, you can rake in some cash winning some nice foreign leagues, but if you want SC to be your main source of income, you're in for a lot of disappointment.
You want to make easy money, better go play poker. I mean, I'm not ignorant, I'm all for setting a goal and striving to attain it, but like many have already pointed out, you have to know your limits. Putting your entire life for something unattainable (and it is so these days) is not a wise decision.
Respect to Nony and Ret for not letting themselves get brainwashed by those silly Koreans.
On December 28 2009 08:25 Xiphos wrote: But to be honest, becoming a doctor probably takes less effort than a Progamer
uh not really LOL
Yeah, this isn't a case of effort. It's talent, definitely takes far more talent to be a progamer. Some of the ones that do become progamers probably do so with less effort than becoming a doctor. But far more people could become doctors than progamers.
LOL yeah because it's so hard to play games compared to saving lives right? Try doing a residency, the hours will make your progaming schedule look easy. And if you lose a game, who gives a shit? Fuck up in the hospital and someone can lose their life.
Making it in progaming is probably more talent-based, while making it as a doctor is probably more based on effort. I mean, pretty much any asian parent knows their kid can be a doctor or lawyer with enough effort ,which is why they push their kids to follow such careers with high yield and high success rate provided they give enough effort.
Obviously progaming requires tremendous dedication and effort as well, but without talent you aren't going to make it, while I think that most people can become a doctor if they just decide on that career path and put enough effort into making it happen. So yeah, far more people could become doctors than progamers.
I mean, I think Dark Elf from CJ became a lawyer in about 4 years after quitting progaming.
darkelf left cj less than a year ago and he played a match for airforce an hour ago
On December 28 2009 08:25 Xiphos wrote: But to be honest, becoming a doctor probably takes less effort than a Progamer
uh not really LOL
Yeah, this isn't a case of effort. It's talent, definitely takes far more talent to be a progamer. Some of the ones that do become progamers probably do so with less effort than becoming a doctor. But far more people could become doctors than progamers.
LOL yeah because it's so hard to play games compared to saving lives right? Try doing a residency, the hours will make your progaming schedule look easy. And if you lose a game, who gives a shit? Fuck up in the hospital and someone can lose their life.
Making it in progaming is probably more talent-based, while making it as a doctor is probably more based on effort. I mean, pretty much any asian parent knows their kid can be a doctor or lawyer with enough effort ,which is why they push their kids to follow such careers with high yield and high success rate provided they give enough effort.
Obviously progaming requires tremendous dedication and effort as well, but without talent you aren't going to make it, while I think that most people can become a doctor if they just decide on that career path and put enough effort into making it happen. So yeah, far more people could become doctors than progamers.
I mean, I think Dark Elf from CJ became a lawyer in about 4 years after quitting progaming.
darkelf left cj less than a year ago and he played a match for airforce an hour ago
Clearly, Dark Elf is the secret identity of a Seoul based business lawyer. On regular days he spends his time defending people in court and filing paperwork. Thanking his wife for dinner. Watch the news. But when you least expect it, he dashes to the nearest phone booth or programer house toilet, dons his Airforce Ace tights, and takes on the forces of evil that roam the BW pro scene!
On December 28 2009 21:19 Tomcat wrote: You want to make easy money, better go play poker. I mean, I'm not ignorant, I'm all for setting a goal and striving to attain it, but like many have already pointed out, you have to know your limits. Putting your entire life for something unattainable (and it is so these days) is not a wise decision.
how many people lose money compared to make money in poker
On December 28 2009 06:37 Rekrul wrote: Now I'm 104 kgs the fattest I've ever been in my life and believe me I can feel a huge difference in the way I am treated in general. Not that I give a fuck because I'm mother fucking rekrul
Hell yeah
I know people like Artosis like to advocate that you have to play starcraft1 a lot to improve your chances of becoming good at starcraft2. But he's dead wrong...he not exactly an unintelligent person, but sometimes he has mental blocks that cause him to do stupid things like play only one race for 11 years straight instead of dabbling a little in zerg or toss.
On December 28 2009 14:47 HazMat wrote: Why is everyone assuming Starcraft2 will become an E-sport?
It will be, but then again even wc3 (with all of it's serious drawbacks, imbalances and stagnant map pool) is an esport.
But yeah, I don't get the general feeling of 'SC2 will save us all!' that many posters have taken up over the past year or so either. I certainly don't think it will replace SC in Korea anytime soon, if ever. New games are great, but you need something really fucking amazing to replace the most skill-based and balanced RTS of all time.
SC2 will replace SC as long as the game is passable and the sponsors are willing to make the switch. Both points are quite easily satisfiable if you ask me.
Third point. The Koreans need to dominate the game and dominate it quickly.
Like it or not, majority of e-sport sponsors and audiences are in South Korea.
War3 failed because no Korean ever dominated it early on. Even Moon failed at WCG multiple times .
Your post just shows your complete ignorance of the e-sport world.
Majority of SC sponsors and audiences are Koreans. The other e-sport audiences are completly game-dependant (like europe-china for War3 and europe-america for CS) and the majority of sponsors are americans (related to the audience). Second point, War3 failed in Korea because Koreans prefered SC (not because Moon didn't dominate the scene, that's a complete non-sense he basically won everything exept WCG), however, it didn't just "fail", War3 succeeded in Europe and particulary in China and permitted the creation of the well known "Dota" mode.
The only thing that SC2 needs in order to be successful is a huge community attracting sponsors. If it can be half or 1/3 as successful as what SC is in Korea, everywhere else, I guess it would be fine and even way better than the current situation.
I was just speculating.
Moon was successful but he was a no body at the start. I'm talking about pre frozen scene. Koreans did not win anything major until years later and when that happened, it was the same group of players. The game never 'replaced' Starcraft in Korea.
We can not compare CS, War3 with SC. SC is the most mature developed e-sport in the world.
Every other game have tournaments but their sponsors are random and pretty much concentrate on the few 'grand slams' every year. It's not as professional as Starcraft which pretty much have the backing of the entire Korean corporates.
Europe/American e-sport is successful? Please.
Chinese e-sport had a great future but it went to shits when the government banned it on TV.
There are legions of war3 players in China due to one reason and one reason only. Sky won 2 WCGs and college kids see it as something that they can be good at. Sad but true. I wonder how popular starcraft will be if Koreans keep getting smashed in WCG. Again, pure speculation, but I think people understand my point.
For SC2 to be successful, it will have to replace BW. Simple as that, there is no way around it as they are competing against the same group of players and fans.
On December 28 2009 08:25 Xiphos wrote: But to be honest, becoming a doctor probably takes less effort than a Progamer
uh not really LOL
Yeah, this isn't a case of effort. It's talent, definitely takes far more talent to be a progamer. Some of the ones that do become progamers probably do so with less effort than becoming a doctor. But far more people could become doctors than progamers.
LOL yeah because it's so hard to play games compared to saving lives right? Try doing a residency, the hours will make your progaming schedule look easy. And if you lose a game, who gives a shit? Fuck up in the hospital and someone can lose their life.
Making it in progaming is probably more talent-based, while making it as a doctor is probably more based on effort. I mean, pretty much any asian parent knows their kid can be a doctor or lawyer with enough effort ,which is why they push their kids to follow such careers with high yield and high success rate provided they give enough effort.
Obviously progaming requires tremendous dedication and effort as well, but without talent you aren't going to make it, while I think that most people can become a doctor if they just decide on that career path and put enough effort into making it happen. So yeah, far more people could become doctors than progamers.
I mean, I think Dark Elf from CJ became a lawyer in about 4 years after quitting progaming.
darkelf left cj less than a year ago and he played a match for airforce an hour ago
On December 28 2009 06:44 Weasel- wrote: I think I've learned more about Korean Starcraft in this one post than I have in the past 6 months reading stuff on TL.
On December 28 2009 06:44 Weasel- wrote: I think I've learned more about Korean Starcraft in this one post than I have in the past 6 months reading stuff on TL.
+1
Cuz what happens here is a TV-show, entertainment. You dont actually watch House and go OMFG, that's how a hospital works. HE'S GOT LUPIS. Same idea here, its a show here, jus enjoy it, and please for the love of god don't think you can be a progamer...
On December 28 2009 12:54 toopham wrote: All you guys are fuking bandwagon jumpers. Rekrul post something bad about estro and the koreans and about ret and you all agree.
When I posted something bad about estro and how badly they treated ret and how Estro coaching suck balls, motherfuckers tell me I should "blog it" or that I am very wrong and shouldn't be saying those things against Estro because they've done so much for foreigners.
NeverGG even tell me to watch what I say because Estro coaches lurk this forum. And then I get my thread closed because I am a nobody making a post.
It seems like the only way you can make a thread around here is if you're well known.
it's just fucking sad.
"Thou shall respect forum veterans".
It is quite obvious, and it has even been proofed, that practicing too much a real sport is a bad thing. The physical drawbacks are obvious to everyone.
E-sports induce some physical backwards too, but most of them are psychological, they're not obvious and they're perceived as a personal weakness despite the fact that the neurotransmitters involved are the same as those involved in a strain for example... It gives the illusion that "the more practice you can get the better it is", that is incorrect, that is just plain wrong... Sure for some players it is almost true but not for everyone, most of them are actually underperforming when fallowing a strict schedule and excessive training hours. Notice how the CS WMF team can't hold a handle to FnATIC and SK gaming, or how Moon who won nearly 300 000 dollars of prize monney in 2007-2008 didn't win any single tournament soon after he joined WMF.
Wtf guys... practicing 10-12 hours a day 7days/7 ? Is that necessarily better than 8 hours a day with a day off ? No wonder why 95% of the SC pros suddenly crash after 2 years at the top…
Be all certain that SK, MYM, WE (chinese), MOUZ, FNATIC, mb even EG, will all have a prestigious SC2 squad soon after its release. Be also sure that a lot of foreign tournaments/leagues will be created, and I know that it might sound crazy to some of you, but they will allow you to say "gl hf" along with VV without disqualifying you.
Koreans are the pionneers of the E-sport, that is a fact, but their way of adapting it is tightly linked to their culture and the stupidity of their E-sport managers (aka kespa). Their way of dealing with it is not a model that we should blindly copy.
These are exactly my thoughts on the subject. Living a life where you branch out, learn different skills, read books, meet people, ... is the only way you can really say you tried. Excessive training like that is called excessive for a reason. It may work for Korea because they think it does, but if you consider the skill of a lot of top foreign gamers, they have come pretty bloody far with almost no framework and maybe 3 hours practice. A work day (everywhere other than Korea it seems) is about 6-8 hours long, and there is a reason it's 6-8 hours long and not 12+.
This definitely puts IdrA in a new light. Not many people can live in such conditions for so long. I hope ret sticks it out and doesn't give up, but at the same time it must be demoralizing to go through all that and be met with little/no success. Good luck in whatever you do ret
you will improve faster and be more motivated if the environment you are in is friendly and is ready to help you to maximize your improvement in school or at least in my school i could always ask teachers for special things like "i wanna listen to the book instead of read it" etc and they would accept all teachers had the same attitude, "whatever makes it better for u to improve" but in korea i dont think they know about this method since they dont let players adapt at all which i find sad, a foreigner pro-team in would be a really cool idea but then again sc2 is comming to ggnore sc1
lol come on the guy is 24!!!! he must be looking for a GF and get married, have his own house, a profession, etc not trying to be pro at a video game OMFG O_O
I don't mean to be picky, but I don't think this piece qualifies as an essay. Usually an essay takes the reader on a "journey towards understanding", that is, it helps us follow the path the author took to come to a greater understanding of whatever it is he or she is writing about.
This piece carries little to no evidence of the author's assumptions about either Korean culture or Korean sociology and seems highly generalize. For Example
"Koreans are fucking xenophobic as fuck. They are not happy go lucky to foreigners at all "
Could we not say the exact same about Americans? Consider recent American attitude toward Hispanic immigrants / laborers etc. Mainstream news would have us believe they are stealing jobs and running drugs, both of which are simply 100 percent overgeneralized and oversimplified.
I hope TL reconsiders what it chooses to feature on the homepage in the future.
24 is still young, it's the years after that rapidly catch up. When you're 26, 27 you start to think "fuck"
If there was a chance in hell of being successful at Starcraft I'd say do it without even worrying about your age, but it's honestly an unattainable goal. Not that Ret has to take it in any way but my advice would be to put your energy into winning TSL2, enjoy that money and pursue another goal in the interim and try out SC2 where there might actually be the potential achieve success, which there just isn't in SC
"I'd fucking get out my KTF baseball bat and tell them in that case play him 5 games right now if you lose a single game you're getting the fucking beats. But thats just me, and thats a perfect world. This is not me, this is koreans and their koreans way, in a very imperfect progaming world that turns it's players into slaves." 100% true. It made me LOL.
Wow, never expected it to be this tough on foreigners in progaming teams there. Ret, getting into professional starcraft would already be such a huge success to me. : D
On December 28 2009 23:36 UlyssesPro wrote: I don't mean to be picky, but I don't think this piece qualifies as an essay. Usually an essay takes the reader on a "journey towards understanding", that is, it helps us follow the path the author took to come to a greater understanding of whatever it is he or she is writing about.
This piece carries little to no evidence of the author's assumptions about either Korean culture or Korean sociology and seems highly generalize. For Example
"Koreans are fucking xenophobic as fuck. They are not happy go lucky to foreigners at all "
Could we not say the exact same about Americans? Consider recent American attitude toward Hispanic immigrants / laborers etc. Mainstream news would have us believe they are stealing jobs and running drugs, both of which are simply 100 percent overgeneralized and oversimplified.
I hope TL reconsiders what it chooses to feature on the homepage in the future.
I just want to point out, it wasn't Rekrul who called it an essay.
On December 28 2009 23:26 AstraBoy wrote: lol come on the guy is 24!!!! he must be looking for a GF and get married, have his own house, a profession, etc not trying to be pro at a video game OMFG O_O
24 !!!!!
24 is a lot. He should forget his unrealistic teen dreams because they will never happen , not in this life. Koreans will never open for any foreigner , they will never accept him as a player from their own. He should really ask himself what he wants to achieve with his life.
On December 28 2009 06:45 Chill wrote: Agreed on every point.
Actually, even though it's public knowledge, I never knew how progaming actually worked until I was in Korea. You don't have a life. You follow their schedule, day in, day out, for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's not exciting to live in Korea because you can't fucking talk to anyone because they don't speak English, you don't have time to learn Korean, and you don't have time to actually step outside and see any of Seoul.
If anything, Idra deserves ridiculous amounts of credit for doing what he's done for so long. I know I wouldn't last 3 days. I'm completely serious.
But isn't that the same thing idrA did when he was in US? He just played all day or am I wrong? That is just what I hear and it seems logical to me..
Anyway, what's going on with ret? How is it his fault that the koreans don't want to play him, they don't think they should waste their time playing him because they are better yet they want to play REAL pros and learn from them... just doesn't make sense to me how they think. I want to get better so ima play better people but I dont want to give a worse player that same chance... Just stupid. One last thing, how the hell DID IdrA get on CJ, I never heard that story. And for people who think he can put in a good word for ret and get him over to CJ rek said it perfectly, "they don't give a fuck what idra thinks."
Idra got on CJ because he took stork to the late late game in a TvP at either blizzcon or WWI, I can't remember. It was a really nice long macro game. CJ coaches took interest in him because of that, or at least that was what was circulated here.
On December 29 2009 01:47 Tropics wrote: Idra got on CJ because he took stork to the late late game in a TvP at either blizzcon or WWI, I can't remember. It was a really nice long macro game. CJ coaches took interest in him because of that, or at least that was what was circulated here.
Idra won a tournament, open only to North American players, and the prize was to become a progamer.
edit: Actually, I think you were saying that CJ took him from his old team (estro I think?) because of that performance vs. stork. That may well be the case.
On December 28 2009 06:45 Chill wrote: Agreed on every point.
Actually, even though it's public knowledge, I never knew how progaming actually worked until I was in Korea. You don't have a life. You follow their schedule, day in, day out, for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's not exciting to live in Korea because you can't fucking talk to anyone because they don't speak English, you don't have time to learn Korean, and you don't have time to actually step outside and see any of Seoul.
If anything, Idra deserves ridiculous amounts of credit for doing what he's done for so long. I know I wouldn't last 3 days. I'm completely serious.
But isn't that the same thing idrA did when he was in US? He just played all day or am I wrong? That is just what I hear and it seems logical to me..
He also went to school, had family to talk to, familiar food, language and culture, had freedom to stop if he wanted, and slept in his own bed. Believe yourself to be as mentally tough as you want, that shit adds up.
If training 12 hours a day non stop made you the best, then Boxer would not have lost against G5 AND White-RA in the same tounament. Same goes for EffOrt, even thought it was a proxy I heard? Even then, the practice should make you almost invincible against proxies.
On December 28 2009 06:45 Chill wrote: Agreed on every point.
Actually, even though it's public knowledge, I never knew how progaming actually worked until I was in Korea. You don't have a life. You follow their schedule, day in, day out, for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's not exciting to live in Korea because you can't fucking talk to anyone because they don't speak English, you don't have time to learn Korean, and you don't have time to actually step outside and see any of Seoul.
If anything, Idra deserves ridiculous amounts of credit for doing what he's done for so long. I know I wouldn't last 3 days. I'm completely serious.
But isn't that the same thing idrA did when he was in US? He just played all day or am I wrong? That is just what I hear and it seems logical to me..
He also went to school, had family to talk to, familiar food, language and culture, had freedom to stop if he wanted, and slept in his own bed. Believe yourself to be as mentally tough as you want, that shit adds up.
You got a point there, but he was willing to give it up (obviously), was he aware of what it would be like?
On December 28 2009 23:26 AstraBoy wrote: lol come on the guy is 24!!!! he must be looking for a GF and get married, have his own house, a profession, etc not trying to be pro at a video game OMFG O_O
24 !!!!!
Every person got his own dream and it would not stop at any age. I am happy he tried it out and could make a clean end when his time comes. He never will question himself "what if?" Jos is a great person and he will make his way whenever he wants and hey you could make kids until you are 80 and if you have trouble just use Viagra :D
On December 28 2009 12:54 toopham wrote: All you guys are fuking bandwagon jumpers. Rekrul post something bad about estro and the koreans and about ret and you all agree.
When I posted something bad about estro and how badly they treated ret and how Estro coaching suck balls, motherfuckers tell me I should "blog it" or that I am very wrong and shouldn't be saying those things against Estro because they've done so much for foreigners.
NeverGG even tell me to watch what I say because Estro coaches lurk this forum. And then I get my thread closed because I am a nobody making a post.
It seems like the only way you can make a thread around here is if you're well known.
I think a few points Rekrul touched on have some merit; In Korea, I would I imagine someone with such a large physical constitution, like Ret, is probably met with some distaste. That part of the world is no stranger to famine and shortage, and a huge westerner personifies the hostility some people have towards the west. He also seems old relative to the entire programing scene. I have also never been able to figure out how people go to Korea without taking even a crash course in Korean...every piece of footage of foreigners in Korea indicates that they can't even muster a few words of Korean; what would you expect in any country with that kind of cultural barrier. Yea it's a difficult language to learn for westerners, but there have to be some basics.
Highly skeptical of the idea of Koreans being "xenophobic". Although I have never been there, I have always known Koreans to be well mannered and helpful online, and always eager to converse if you give them a chance to use their English. In my head I can name a few Koreans who have gone out of their way, with no benefit for themselves, to help me practice / learn strategies. A dude I played with even e-mailed me from the military to see how I was doing.
On December 28 2009 06:45 Chill wrote: Agreed on every point.
Actually, even though it's public knowledge, I never knew how progaming actually worked until I was in Korea. You don't have a life. You follow their schedule, day in, day out, for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's not exciting to live in Korea because you can't fucking talk to anyone because they don't speak English, you don't have time to learn Korean, and you don't have time to actually step outside and see any of Seoul.
If anything, Idra deserves ridiculous amounts of credit for doing what he's done for so long. I know I wouldn't last 3 days. I'm completely serious.
But isn't that the same thing idrA did when he was in US? He just played all day or am I wrong? That is just what I hear and it seems logical to me..
He also went to school, had family to talk to, familiar food, language and culture, had freedom to stop if he wanted, and slept in his own bed. Believe yourself to be as mentally tough as you want, that shit adds up.
You got a point there, but he was willing to give it up (obviously), was he aware of what it would be like?
I dunno if he know exactly what comes but i think its exactly the part of Idra ppl hate that makes him successfull there, he is a stubborn streight forward guy with a big ego. "Don´t care what ppl think about me, i do what i want"
On December 28 2009 12:54 toopham wrote: All you guys are fuking bandwagon jumpers. Rekrul post something bad about estro and the koreans and about ret and you all agree.
When I posted something bad about estro and how badly they treated ret and how Estro coaching suck balls, motherfuckers tell me I should "blog it" or that I am very wrong and shouldn't be saying those things against Estro because they've done so much for foreigners.
NeverGG even tell me to watch what I say because Estro coaches lurk this forum. And then I get my thread closed because I am a nobody making a post.
It seems like the only way you can make a thread around here is if you're well known.
it's just fucking sad.
i'd have to agree with toopham
Rofl, why would it matter that eSTRO coaches lurk the forum? Is saying something bad about them going to get me shot or banned? Lol... If anything, this provokes me to insult them just to see what they say...
On December 28 2009 06:45 Chill wrote: Agreed on every point.
Actually, even though it's public knowledge, I never knew how progaming actually worked until I was in Korea. You don't have a life. You follow their schedule, day in, day out, for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's not exciting to live in Korea because you can't fucking talk to anyone because they don't speak English, you don't have time to learn Korean, and you don't have time to actually step outside and see any of Seoul.
If anything, Idra deserves ridiculous amounts of credit for doing what he's done for so long. I know I wouldn't last 3 days. I'm completely serious.
But isn't that the same thing idrA did when he was in US? He just played all day or am I wrong? That is just what I hear and it seems logical to me..
He also went to school, had family to talk to, familiar food, language and culture, had freedom to stop if he wanted, and slept in his own bed. Believe yourself to be as mentally tough as you want, that shit adds up.
You got a point there, but he was willing to give it up (obviously), was he aware of what it would be like?
What is your point? He knew what he was getting into so he deserves no credit? I don't even see what you are driving at. I said he is doing what no one else could or can. And for that he deserves an incredible amount of respect.
On December 28 2009 08:25 Xiphos wrote: But to be honest, becoming a doctor probably takes less effort than a Progamer
uh not really LOL
Yeah, this isn't a case of effort. It's talent, definitely takes far more talent to be a progamer. Some of the ones that do become progamers probably do so with less effort than becoming a doctor. But far more people could become doctors than progamers.
.....
can't be serious.
Obviously serious. It by no means takes a lot of talent to become a doctor. It takes a lot of effort, and a willingness to have your life revolve around it (and have to deal with pressure). Talent? .. not really.
I am glad that errol1001 agrees with me. I mean think about it, if JD can put half of the effort that he did last season of Proleague/OSL/MSL, he can 100% make it into the Medical field with even lesser time than a regular person would.
To be a progamer is definitly A LOT harder than to be a doctor..
what is hard at beeing a doctor? Maybe i see it in that because i come from an academic family, but doctor is like lawyer. you chose it, study it and then with time, you're a doctor. nothing hard there.
On December 29 2009 02:41 SkytoM wrote: To be a progamer is definitly A LOT harder than to be a doctor..
what is hard at beeing a doctor? Maybe i see it in that because i come from an academic family, but doctor is like lawyer. you chose it, study it and then with time, you're a doctor. nothing hard there.
On December 28 2009 23:26 AstraBoy wrote: lol come on the guy is 24!!!! he must be looking for a GF and get married, have his own house, a profession, etc not trying to be pro at a video game OMFG O_O
24 !!!!!
Every person got his own dream and it would not stop at any age. I am happy he tried it out and could make a clean end when his time comes. He never will question himself "what if?" Jos is a great person and he will make his way whenever he wants and hey you could make kids until you are 80 and if you have trouble just use Viagra :D
On December 28 2009 08:25 Xiphos wrote: But to be honest, becoming a doctor probably takes less effort than a Progamer
uh not really LOL
Yeah, this isn't a case of effort. It's talent, definitely takes far more talent to be a progamer. Some of the ones that do become progamers probably do so with less effort than becoming a doctor. But far more people could become doctors than progamers.
LOL yeah because it's so hard to play games compared to saving lives right? Try doing a residency, the hours will make your progaming schedule look easy. And if you lose a game, who gives a shit? Fuck up in the hospital and someone can lose their life.
Making it in progaming is probably more talent-based, while making it as a doctor is probably more based on effort. I mean, pretty much any asian parent knows their kid can be a doctor or lawyer with enough effort ,which is why they push their kids to follow such careers with high yield and high success rate provided they give enough effort.
Obviously progaming requires tremendous dedication and effort as well, but without talent you aren't going to make it, while I think that most people can become a doctor if they just decide on that career path and put enough effort into making it happen. So yeah, far more people could become doctors than progamers.
I mean, I think Dark Elf from CJ became a lawyer in about 4 years after quitting progaming.
LOL Kid's been a progamer for like 4 years.
Most people cannot become doctors you idiots. Stop bringing up this inane point, becoming a doctor is much harder than you think. I know this is teamliquid and not studentdoc but seriously get a fucking clue. It requires much more dedication than moving a bunch of units around on a screen. You study for 4 years in college, getting about a 3.6 gpa or so minimum at least with about a 3.5 in sciences AND you have to do well on MCAT, competing against the brightest people in the world. This doesn't include all the other shit medical schools look for, such as volunteering, leadership activities, research experience etc. that you have to do while studying all day with no social life. Then you do another 4 years or so years of medical school where you learn all the shit you need to know, memorizing everything AND retaining it all. It's not like college where you learn everything for the final, regurgitate it on a piece of paper, then forget about it for the rest of your life. Oh wait, you probably wouldn't know because most likely, you haven't even graduated high school yet and know nothing of the real world. You also have to do 3~7 years of residency depending on your specialty where you get paid jack shit, like $50,000 a year and work like 80 hours a week (surgical residents can work up to 110 hours a week). Compare this to your mom or dad who probably works 40 hours a week and comes home tired as shit from it. It's 36 hour days separated by 12 hour rests for years! You kids get impressed if a progamer says in an interview that he practiced for 14 hours a day for a week to prepare for a series. Pretty much each step of the way takes more effort and lasts longer than an average progaming career. You need more talent, dedication and intelligence to be a doctor than to be a progamer. A progamer plays a fucking game for a living. There are only so many strategies and so many styles of playing. Do you know how many diseases there are to know? You have to know their symptoms, causes, treatments, etc. It sounds like nothing if I type it out here but it's a ridiculous amount of information to learn. If it's so easy to be a doctor, then why doesn't everyone do it like you say? God you kids are stupid.
On December 28 2009 23:36 UlyssesPro wrote: I don't mean to be picky, but I don't think this piece qualifies as an essay. Usually an essay takes the reader on a "journey towards understanding", that is, it helps us follow the path the author took to come to a greater understanding of whatever it is he or she is writing about.
This piece carries little to no evidence of the author's assumptions about either Korean culture or Korean sociology and seems highly generalize. For Example
"Koreans are fucking xenophobic as fuck. They are not happy go lucky to foreigners at all "
Could we not say the exact same about Americans? Consider recent American attitude toward Hispanic immigrants / laborers etc. Mainstream news would have us believe they are stealing jobs and running drugs, both of which are simply 100 percent overgeneralized and oversimplified.
I hope TL reconsiders what it chooses to feature on the homepage in the future.
I think his post was very good, but your point about illegal immigrants is very good. They were even featured in the health care debate, in which congressmen stated that they didn't want to waste money helping immigrants have health care on the taxpayer's dime, which makes sense, but isn't exactly the most tolerant of positions.
On December 28 2009 06:45 Chill wrote: Agreed on every point.
Actually, even though it's public knowledge, I never knew how progaming actually worked until I was in Korea. You don't have a life. You follow their schedule, day in, day out, for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's not exciting to live in Korea because you can't fucking talk to anyone because they don't speak English, you don't have time to learn Korean, and you don't have time to actually step outside and see any of Seoul.
If anything, Idra deserves ridiculous amounts of credit for doing what he's done for so long. I know I wouldn't last 3 days. I'm completely serious.
But isn't that the same thing idrA did when he was in US? He just played all day or am I wrong? That is just what I hear and it seems logical to me..
Anyway, what's going on with ret? How is it his fault that the koreans don't want to play him, they don't think they should waste their time playing him because they are better yet they want to play REAL pros and learn from them... just doesn't make sense to me how they think. I want to get better so ima play better people but I dont want to give a worse player that same chance... Just stupid. One last thing, how the hell DID IdrA get on CJ, I never heard that story. And for people who think he can put in a good word for ret and get him over to CJ rek said it perfectly, "they don't give a fuck what idra thinks."
Right. Hmmm I want to be a known progamer and get a chance to play a televised game. I want to improve myself and I am competing against hundreds of other players who have the exact goal as me. Should I help out some kid who I can't even communicate with and will hypothetically take my spot and limit my options if he turns out to be better than me or should I attempt to better myself by seeking out better opponents and learning from their experience and skills?
On December 29 2009 02:41 SkytoM wrote: To be a progamer is definitly A LOT harder than to be a doctor..
what is hard at beeing a doctor? Maybe i see it in that because i come from an academic family, but doctor is like lawyer. you chose it, study it and then with time, you're a doctor. nothing hard there.
?
That argument is literally identical to a progamer. You choose it, study it, and with time you're a progamer. Nothing hard there.
On December 29 2009 02:41 SkytoM wrote: To be a progamer is definitly A LOT harder than to be a doctor..
what is hard at beeing a doctor? Maybe i see it in that because i come from an academic family, but doctor is like lawyer. you chose it, study it and then with time, you're a doctor. nothing hard there.
?
That argument is literally identical to a progamer. You choose it, study it, and with time you're a progamer. Nothing hard there.
to become a licenced doctor you have to finish high school and than take 6+x years (6+8 for neurosurgery), so it takes a little bit more time than to become a progamer.
On December 29 2009 02:41 SkytoM wrote: To be a progamer is definitly A LOT harder than to be a doctor..
what is hard at beeing a doctor? Maybe i see it in that because i come from an academic family, but doctor is like lawyer. you chose it, study it and then with time, you're a doctor. nothing hard there.
?
That argument is literally identical to a progamer. You choose it, study it, and with time you're a progamer. Nothing hard there.
The main difference is competitiveness, it's insane in case of Korean SC and almost non-existent in medicine, at least compared to progaming. The point I'm trying to make is that becoming a progamer is more complex (i.e. not everybody will succeed no matter how much time they spend and how hard they try), while becoming a doctor is harder (the total amount of work and time spent is larger but if you're interested and not stupid you will be fine).
I will invent a way to punch people thru standard TCP/IP conenctions and be rich.
Doctor... are you serious you are comparing being a DOCTOR to a progamer? Wow you guys are unbelivibly ignorant. 10 hours a day cannot be compared to 38 hour shifts! I was in med-school (changed major for financial reasons) and let me tell you 7% of the people that join med-school actually have what it takes. I did rounds in hospital I worked 24 hour shifts in several hospital... Until you have been there and see what is really like please shut up.
Videogame player to Doctor. WOW! Just wow... A SC game is far from being as complicated as a surgery.
I vote for this thread to be closed. Comments are way off topic this is a flame war and stupidity has reached new heights.
On December 29 2009 02:41 SkytoM wrote: To be a progamer is definitly A LOT harder than to be a doctor..
what is hard at beeing a doctor? Maybe i see it in that because i come from an academic family, but doctor is like lawyer. you chose it, study it and then with time, you're a doctor. nothing hard there.
?
That argument is literally identical to a progamer. You choose it, study it, and with time you're a progamer. Nothing hard there.
The main difference is competitiveness, it's insane in case of Korean SC and almost non-existent in medicine, at least compared to progaming. The point I'm trying to make is that becoming a progamer is more complex (i.e. not everybody will succeed no matter how much time they spend and how hard they try), while becoming a doctor is harder (the total amount of work and time spent is larger but if you're interested and not stupid you will be fine).
I agree.
Can we just agree they're both difficult in their own rights? I think this is a silly argument to continue with
On December 29 2009 02:41 SkytoM wrote: To be a progamer is definitly A LOT harder than to be a doctor..
what is hard at beeing a doctor? Maybe i see it in that because i come from an academic family, but doctor is like lawyer. you chose it, study it and then with time, you're a doctor. nothing hard there.
?
That argument is literally identical to a progamer. You choose it, study it, and with time you're a progamer. Nothing hard there.
to become a licenced doctor you have to finish high school and than take 6+x years (6+8 for neurosurgery), so it takes a little bit more time than to become a progamer.
On December 29 2009 02:41 SkytoM wrote: To be a progamer is definitly A LOT harder than to be a doctor..
what is hard at beeing a doctor? Maybe i see it in that because i come from an academic family, but doctor is like lawyer. you chose it, study it and then with time, you're a doctor. nothing hard there.
?
That argument is literally identical to a progamer. You choose it, study it, and with time you're a progamer. Nothing hard there.
The main difference is competitiveness, it's insane in case of Korean SC and almost non-existent in medicine, at least compared to progaming. The point I'm trying to make is that becoming a progamer is more complex (i.e. not everybody will succeed no matter how much time they spend and how hard they try), while becoming a doctor is harder (the total amount of work and time spent is larger but if you're interested and not stupid you will be fine).
Right, there's absolutely no competition in medicine. That's why people are weeded out in college based on their gpa using classes such as biology, organic chemistry, physics and then by their mcat score, then by their respective activities, then by their respective merits. Once they're in med school, not only do they have to memorize everything that they learn and retain it without flunking out, they have to pass 3 different tests (once every two years iirc) and do well to get the specialty that they want. Even when you get to become a doctor, not everyone does well.
Progaming is nothing compared to medicine, get this into your heads geeks. You don't know shit about becoming a doctor.
On December 29 2009 02:41 SkytoM wrote: To be a progamer is definitly A LOT harder than to be a doctor..
what is hard at beeing a doctor? Maybe i see it in that because i come from an academic family, but doctor is like lawyer. you chose it, study it and then with time, you're a doctor. nothing hard there.
?
That argument is literally identical to a progamer. You choose it, study it, and with time you're a progamer. Nothing hard there.
The main difference is competitiveness, it's insane in case of Korean SC and almost non-existent in medicine, at least compared to progaming. The point I'm trying to make is that becoming a progamer is more complex (i.e. not everybody will succeed no matter how much time they spend and how hard they try), while becoming a doctor is harder (the total amount of work and time spent is larger but if you're interested and not stupid you will be fine).
I agree.
Can we just agree they're both difficult in their own rights? I think this is a silly argument to continue with
Really Chill? You agree with that moron? It might be hard to make a name for yourself in progaming, but there is no way that progaming is even close to being as competitive as medicine is.
On December 29 2009 02:58 Arhkangel wrote: IF YOU ARE NOT A DOCTOR STOP COMPARING PALYING SC TO BEING IN MED SCHOOL!
Okay, if you are not a progamer I would ask you also stop making the comparison. And since you are neither a doctor nor a progamer, I seriously question why you are in this thread by your own request.
On December 29 2009 02:41 SkytoM wrote: To be a progamer is definitly A LOT harder than to be a doctor..
what is hard at beeing a doctor? Maybe i see it in that because i come from an academic family, but doctor is like lawyer. you chose it, study it and then with time, you're a doctor. nothing hard there.
?
That argument is literally identical to a progamer. You choose it, study it, and with time you're a progamer. Nothing hard there.
to become a licenced doctor you have to finish high school and than take 6+x years (6+8 for neurosurgery), so it takes a little bit more time than to become a progamer.
On December 29 2009 02:59 ghostWriter wrote: Really Chill? You agree with that moron? It might be hard to make a name for yourself in progaming, but there is no way that progaming is even close to being as competitive as medicine is.
Ok, I really hope you're not mentally deficient, otherwise it's pointless to continue. Drop-out rate at medical schools is less than 10%, actually 10% was a major concern somewhere so it's usually even lower (you can google it). And then compare it to hordes of koreans who try to become progamers but very few of them succeed.
The idea is that being a progamer is interesting only if you are, let say, top 40 in the world. Spending 3 / 4 years in a house playing 12+ hours a day and not doing anything else than some B-team internal league and online tournament is just fucking sad.
Life is short, there are many many things to do. Girls to meet, great places to go, amazing books to read, incredible amount of things to learn and to enjoy. Being a top thier progamer worths it for some people (even if you asked me if I would like to be Jaedong, I would say no way), but otherwise, it's just a good way to throw away the best years of your life for no reward, at all.
So probably, becoming a doctor is not easier than being a bad progamer, but I really think being good enough that it becomes inetersting, that's really much harder than almost anything else. For a huge majority of people, that's just impossible.
Rekrul is right. The problem is not that you shouldn't follow your dreams, the problem is that it's not a dream, it's a nightmare. For everybody except some people blessed by the Gods of Starcraft. And none of us is one of them.
On December 28 2009 06:45 Chill wrote: Agreed on every point.
Actually, even though it's public knowledge, I never knew how progaming actually worked until I was in Korea. You don't have a life. You follow their schedule, day in, day out, for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's not exciting to live in Korea because you can't fucking talk to anyone because they don't speak English, you don't have time to learn Korean, and you don't have time to actually step outside and see any of Seoul.
If anything, Idra deserves ridiculous amounts of credit for doing what he's done for so long. I know I wouldn't last 3 days. I'm completely serious.
But isn't that the same thing idrA did when he was in US? He just played all day or am I wrong? That is just what I hear and it seems logical to me..
He also went to school, had family to talk to, familiar food, language and culture, had freedom to stop if he wanted, and slept in his own bed. Believe yourself to be as mentally tough as you want, that shit adds up.
You got a point there, but he was willing to give it up (obviously), was he aware of what it would be like?
What is your point? He knew what he was getting into so he deserves no credit? I don't even see what you are driving at. I said he is doing what no one else could or can. And for that he deserves an incredible amount of respect.
I'm not arguing with you, I'm just saying did he know what he was getting into, he must have since he dedicated so much time to get to Korea. So either he knew they treat foreigners that way and still decided to go or he decided to stay there anyway.
I think becoming a progamer, definitely an A-team progamer, would be harder a less likely job to achieve with similar amounts of dedication and work ethic.
Think about it this way: There are two 15-year-old kids, both know nothing about progaming and medicine. One is told he is going to become a progamer, the other is told he is going to become a doctor. They both want to become what they are told to become. Who has the higher LIKELIHOOD of becoming the profession they are told/want to become?
Becoming a doctor is just a higher probability field. If you put in the work, and there is a ton of it over a long period of time, you will make it. I don't think the same is true for becoming a progamer. There are too many people also putting in the work that you have to be better than.
I found it very funny that people are comparing progamers to doctors when almost all of them have zero experience with either profession. As somebody who did some research into North American medical school, it is my personal opinion that whoever says becoming a doctor in North America is far easier than becoming a progamer is pulling shit out of his ass.
One thing that I WILL agree with is that it is much harder to be a SUCCESSFUL progamer than being a successful doctor. How many progamers that we actually care about? 10? 15? How many progamers are there? Hundreds! How many progamers make the same amount of money as your average run of mill doctor? I'd say about 3 or 4.
But whoever thinks that becoming a doctor is just like entering any other profession knows shit.
On December 29 2009 03:14 cz wrote: I think becoming a progamer, definitely an A-team progamer, would be harder a less likely job to achieve with similar amounts of dedication and work ethic.
Think about it this way: There are two 15-year-old kids, both know nothing about progaming and medicine. One is told he is going to become a progamer, the other is told he is going to become a doctor. They both want to become what they are told to become. Who has the higher LIKELIHOOD of becoming the profession they are told/want to become?
Becoming a doctor is just a higher probability field. If you put in the work, and there is a ton of it over a long period of time, you will make it. I don't think the same is true for becoming a progamer. There are too many people also putting in the work that you have to be better than.
On December 29 2009 02:59 ghostWriter wrote: Really Chill? You agree with that moron? It might be hard to make a name for yourself in progaming, but there is no way that progaming is even close to being as competitive as medicine is.
Ok, I really hope you're not mentally deficient, otherwise it's pointless to continue. Drop-out rate at medical schools is less than 10%, actually 10% was a major concern somewhere so it's usually even lower (you can google it). And then compare it to hordes of koreans who try to become progamers but very few of them succeed.
Right except that medical schools weed out candidates based on whether or not they think that people will succeed. They also go out of their way to make sure that the people who want to go to medical school actually have a passion for it. This less than 10% comes from the people who claimed to have a passion for medicine AND showed that they have the ability to learn and keep up with the material during their college years. The 10% would be comparing the number of people who dropped out of medical school with the number of people who were on A team but didn't have many televised games yet and decided to quit playing or something like that.
It's not even a parallel situation. The right one would be comparing the hordes of Koreans who try to become progamers to the hordes of students that try to get into medical school but don't succeed (most people drop the premed program of study because they can't even handle the college courses, never mind the classes that they would take in medical school), mostly because of low grades or a low test score.
On December 29 2009 03:14 cz wrote: I think becoming a progamer, definitely an A-team progamer, would be harder a less likely job to achieve with similar amounts of dedication and work ethic.
Think about it this way: There are two 15-year-old kids, both know nothing about progaming and medicine. One is told he is going to become a progamer, the other is told he is going to become a doctor. They both want to become what they are told to become. Who has the higher LIKELIHOOD of becoming the profession they are told/want to become?
Becoming a doctor is just a higher probability field. If you put in the work, and there is a ton of it over a long period of time, you will make it. I don't think the same is true for becoming a progamer. There are too many people also putting in the work that you have to be better than.
Apples to oranges, who cares?
People were comparing apples to oranges, I weighed in.
On December 29 2009 03:14 cz wrote: I think becoming a progamer, definitely an A-team progamer, would be harder a less likely job to achieve with similar amounts of dedication and work ethic.
Think about it this way: There are two 15-year-old kids, both know nothing about progaming and medicine. One is told he is going to become a progamer, the other is told he is going to become a doctor. They both want to become what they are told to become. Who has the higher LIKELIHOOD of becoming the profession they are told/want to become?
Becoming a doctor is just a higher probability field. If you put in the work, and there is a ton of it over a long period of time, you will make it. I don't think the same is true for becoming a progamer. There are too many people also putting in the work that you have to be better than.
You realize that the whole discussion is pointless or not even?
Becoming better than Jaedong is harder than being a standart doctor, being a top brain specialist is harder than being a B team progamer.
On December 29 2009 03:13 GreEny K wrote:But isn't that the same thing idrA did when he was in US? He just played all day or am I wrong? That is just what I hear and it seems logical to me..
Anyway, what's going on with ret? How is it his fault that the koreans don't want to play him, they don't think they should waste their time playing him because they are better yet they want to play REAL pros and learn from them... just doesn't make sense to me how they think. I want to get better so ima play better people but I dont want to give a worse player that same chance... Just stupid. One last thing, how the hell DID IdrA get on CJ, I never heard that story. And for people who think he can put in a good word for ret and get him over to CJ rek said it perfectly, "they don't give a fuck what idra thinks."
Right. Hmmm I want to be a known progamer and get a chance to play a televised game. I want to improve myself and I am competing against hundreds of other players who have the exact goal as me. Should I help out some kid who I can't even communicate with and will hypothetically take my spot and limit my options if he turns out to be better than me or should I attempt to better myself by seeking out better opponents and learning from their experience and skills?
Yes, how stupid of them. -
Sarcasm doesn't work on the internet don't you know that? And if anything you just proved my point, try thinking about what you post. They are in the same situation that ret is in, they want help from teh better pros but receive it then they turn around and neglect to do the same for ret. If everyone had their mentality there would be a few good players who flew solo and did not help anyone else.
I dunno, I laid it on there pretty thick. It's hard to miss. And why don't you try thinking about what I posted. They're competing against one another, why would they want to help someone out that could take their spot? Everyone DOES have that mentality and why should the good ones help out the new players? The new players aren't going to be televised, whether or not they do well is irrelevant to the success of the team, unless they have the talent to actually be televised in which case they will be able to improve perfectly well without being babied.
On December 29 2009 03:14 cz wrote: I think becoming a progamer, definitely an A-team progamer, would be harder a less likely job to achieve with similar amounts of dedication and work ethic.
Think about it this way: There are two 15-year-old kids, both know nothing about progaming and medicine. One is told he is going to become a progamer, the other is told he is going to become a doctor. They both want to become what they are told to become. Who has the higher LIKELIHOOD of becoming the profession they are told/want to become?
Becoming a doctor is just a higher probability field. If you put in the work, and there is a ton of it over a long period of time, you will make it. I don't think the same is true for becoming a progamer. There are too many people also putting in the work that you have to be better than.
Becoming an A-team progamer would be comparable to becoming a neurosurgeon or an anesthesiologist, who study the most and get paid the most. You're comparing all doctors with the best progamers when it should be all doctors and all progamers/the top doctors and the top progamers, assuming that the parallel is valid in the first place.
On December 29 2009 02:59 ghostWriter wrote: Really Chill? You agree with that moron? It might be hard to make a name for yourself in progaming, but there is no way that progaming is even close to being as competitive as medicine is.
Ok, I really hope you're not mentally deficient, otherwise it's pointless to continue. Drop-out rate at medical schools is less than 10%, actually 10% was a major concern somewhere so it's usually even lower (you can google it). And then compare it to hordes of koreans who try to become progamers but very few of them succeed.
Right except that medical schools weed out candidates based on whether or not they think that people will succeed. They also go out of their way to make sure that the people who want to go to medical school actually have a passion for it. This less than 10% comes from the people who claimed to have a passion for medicine AND showed that they have the ability to learn and keep up with the material during their college years. The 10% would be comparing the number of people who dropped out of medical school with the number of people who were on A team but didn't have many televised games yet and decided to quit playing or something like that.
It's not even a parallel situation. The right one would be comparing the hordes of Koreans who try to become progamers to the hordes of students that try to get into medical school but don't succeed (most people drop the premed program of study because they can't even handle the college courses, never mind the classes that they would take in medical school), mostly because of low grades or a low test score.
Perhaps you could make the argument that the two things are different skill sets and thus cannot be compared a la apples to oranges, but what you're claiming now is just wrong.
Ie. I know several friends who are in med school now who scored over 90 percentile on their MCATs and LOVE SC and play it religiously yet are absolutely horrendous.
And btw, getting into a top tier MFA Creative Writing program is literally 10x harder than getting into a top tier medical school by the acceptance/rejection ratio.
On December 29 2009 03:13 GreEny K wrote:But isn't that the same thing idrA did when he was in US? He just played all day or am I wrong? That is just what I hear and it seems logical to me..
Anyway, what's going on with ret? How is it his fault that the koreans don't want to play him, they don't think they should waste their time playing him because they are better yet they want to play REAL pros and learn from them... just doesn't make sense to me how they think. I want to get better so ima play better people but I dont want to give a worse player that same chance... Just stupid. One last thing, how the hell DID IdrA get on CJ, I never heard that story. And for people who think he can put in a good word for ret and get him over to CJ rek said it perfectly, "they don't give a fuck what idra thinks."
Right. Hmmm I want to be a known progamer and get a chance to play a televised game. I want to improve myself and I am competing against hundreds of other players who have the exact goal as me. Should I help out some kid who I can't even communicate with and will hypothetically take my spot and limit my options if he turns out to be better than me or should I attempt to better myself by seeking out better opponents and learning from their experience and skills?
Yes, how stupid of them. -
Sarcasm doesn't work on the internet don't you know that? And if anything you just proved my point, try thinking about what you post. They are in the same situation that ret is in, they want help from teh better pros but receive it then they turn around and neglect to do the same for ret. If everyone had their mentality there would be a few good players who flew solo and did not help anyone else.
I dunno, I laid it on there pretty thick. It's hard to miss. And why don't you try thinking about what I posted. They're competing against one another, why would they want to help someone out that could take their spot? Everyone DOES have that mentality and why should the good ones help out the new players? The new players aren't going to be televised, whether or not they do well is irrelevant to the success of the team, unless they have the talent to actually be televised in which case they will be able to improve perfectly well without being babied.
On December 29 2009 03:14 cz wrote: I think becoming a progamer, definitely an A-team progamer, would be harder a less likely job to achieve with similar amounts of dedication and work ethic.
Think about it this way: There are two 15-year-old kids, both know nothing about progaming and medicine. One is told he is going to become a progamer, the other is told he is going to become a doctor. They both want to become what they are told to become. Who has the higher LIKELIHOOD of becoming the profession they are told/want to become?
Becoming a doctor is just a higher probability field. If you put in the work, and there is a ton of it over a long period of time, you will make it. I don't think the same is true for becoming a progamer. There are too many people also putting in the work that you have to be better than.
Becoming an A-team progamer would be comparable to becoming a neurosurgeon or an anesthesiologist, who study the most and get paid the most. You're comparing all doctors with the best progamers when it should be all doctors and all progamers/the top doctors and the top progamers, assuming that the parallel is valid in the first place.
But really good pros DO help out their teammates, which is why the people who are being helped should follow that same mentality and help foreigners instead of shunning them.
On December 29 2009 02:59 ghostWriter wrote: Really Chill? You agree with that moron? It might be hard to make a name for yourself in progaming, but there is no way that progaming is even close to being as competitive as medicine is.
Ok, I really hope you're not mentally deficient, otherwise it's pointless to continue. Drop-out rate at medical schools is less than 10%, actually 10% was a major concern somewhere so it's usually even lower (you can google it). And then compare it to hordes of koreans who try to become progamers but very few of them succeed.
Right except that medical schools weed out candidates based on whether or not they think that people will succeed. They also go out of their way to make sure that the people who want to go to medical school actually have a passion for it. This less than 10% comes from the people who claimed to have a passion for medicine AND showed that they have the ability to learn and keep up with the material during their college years. The 10% would be comparing the number of people who dropped out of medical school with the number of people who were on A team but didn't have many televised games yet and decided to quit playing or something like that.
It's not even a parallel situation. The right one would be comparing the hordes of Koreans who try to become progamers to the hordes of students that try to get into medical school but don't succeed (most people drop the premed program of study because they can't even handle the college courses, never mind the classes that they would take in medical school), mostly because of low grades or a low test score.
Perhaps you could make the argument that the two things are different skill sets and thus cannot be compared a la apples to oranges, but what you're claiming now is just wrong.
Ie. I know several friends who are in med school now who scored over 90 percentile on their MCATs and LOVE SC and play it religiously yet are absolutely horrendous.
And btw, getting into a top tier MFA Creative Writing program is literally 10x harder than getting into a top tier medical school by the acceptance/rejection ratio.
acceptance/rejection ratio isn't the whole story, since you have to see what kinds of students are applying. And most people that know for a fact that they won't be accepted don't bother applying.
Your little anecdote proves nothing, nor does your affirmative statement. Who cares if they play sc religiously? Playing something for fun is vastly different from playing something as your job, which you get paid for.
On December 29 2009 03:13 GreEny K wrote:But isn't that the same thing idrA did when he was in US? He just played all day or am I wrong? That is just what I hear and it seems logical to me..
Anyway, what's going on with ret? How is it his fault that the koreans don't want to play him, they don't think they should waste their time playing him because they are better yet they want to play REAL pros and learn from them... just doesn't make sense to me how they think. I want to get better so ima play better people but I dont want to give a worse player that same chance... Just stupid. One last thing, how the hell DID IdrA get on CJ, I never heard that story. And for people who think he can put in a good word for ret and get him over to CJ rek said it perfectly, "they don't give a fuck what idra thinks."
Right. Hmmm I want to be a known progamer and get a chance to play a televised game. I want to improve myself and I am competing against hundreds of other players who have the exact goal as me. Should I help out some kid who I can't even communicate with and will hypothetically take my spot and limit my options if he turns out to be better than me or should I attempt to better myself by seeking out better opponents and learning from their experience and skills?
Yes, how stupid of them. -
Sarcasm doesn't work on the internet don't you know that? And if anything you just proved my point, try thinking about what you post. They are in the same situation that ret is in, they want help from teh better pros but receive it then they turn around and neglect to do the same for ret. If everyone had their mentality there would be a few good players who flew solo and did not help anyone else.
I dunno, I laid it on there pretty thick. It's hard to miss. And why don't you try thinking about what I posted. They're competing against one another, why would they want to help someone out that could take their spot? Everyone DOES have that mentality and why should the good ones help out the new players? The new players aren't going to be televised, whether or not they do well is irrelevant to the success of the team, unless they have the talent to actually be televised in which case they will be able to improve perfectly well without being babied.
On December 29 2009 03:14 cz wrote: I think becoming a progamer, definitely an A-team progamer, would be harder a less likely job to achieve with similar amounts of dedication and work ethic.
Think about it this way: There are two 15-year-old kids, both know nothing about progaming and medicine. One is told he is going to become a progamer, the other is told he is going to become a doctor. They both want to become what they are told to become. Who has the higher LIKELIHOOD of becoming the profession they are told/want to become?
Becoming a doctor is just a higher probability field. If you put in the work, and there is a ton of it over a long period of time, you will make it. I don't think the same is true for becoming a progamer. There are too many people also putting in the work that you have to be better than.
Becoming an A-team progamer would be comparable to becoming a neurosurgeon or an anesthesiologist, who study the most and get paid the most. You're comparing all doctors with the best progamers when it should be all doctors and all progamers/the top doctors and the top progamers, assuming that the parallel is valid in the first place.
But really good pros DO help out their teammates, which is why the people who are being helped should follow that same mentality and help foreigners instead of shunning them.
You know, something interesting to see is Flash's TLFE.
He mentions in there that Nada never helped him out because it was very difficult to ask a senior progamer for games. He did say that pepe and others took the initiative to help him on their own though.
So it shows that this is obviously not racism (as Ret said), it's just the culture of Koreans. Even a prodigy like Flash, who'd been on another team, and already made a splash in amateur tournies etc, couldn't get no attention from the senior players. And the reason a few players had mercy on him and helped him out probably had a lot to do with Flash being able to speak with them AND the fact that he was already a prodigy at that time. And with all that, only the lowest of B-teamers gave him a chance.
On December 29 2009 02:59 ghostWriter wrote: Really Chill? You agree with that moron? It might be hard to make a name for yourself in progaming, but there is no way that progaming is even close to being as competitive as medicine is.
Ok, I really hope you're not mentally deficient, otherwise it's pointless to continue. Drop-out rate at medical schools is less than 10%, actually 10% was a major concern somewhere so it's usually even lower (you can google it). And then compare it to hordes of koreans who try to become progamers but very few of them succeed.
Right except that medical schools weed out candidates based on whether or not they think that people will succeed. They also go out of their way to make sure that the people who want to go to medical school actually have a passion for it. This less than 10% comes from the people who claimed to have a passion for medicine AND showed that they have the ability to learn and keep up with the material during their college years. The 10% would be comparing the number of people who dropped out of medical school with the number of people who were on A team but didn't have many televised games yet and decided to quit playing or something like that.
It's not even a parallel situation. The right one would be comparing the hordes of Koreans who try to become progamers to the hordes of students that try to get into medical school but don't succeed (most people drop the premed program of study because they can't even handle the college courses, never mind the classes that they would take in medical school), mostly because of low grades or a low test score.
Perhaps you could make the argument that the two things are different skill sets and thus cannot be compared a la apples to oranges, but what you're claiming now is just wrong.
Ie. I know several friends who are in med school now who scored over 90 percentile on their MCATs and LOVE SC and play it religiously yet are absolutely horrendous.
And btw, getting into a top tier MFA Creative Writing program is literally 10x harder than getting into a top tier medical school by the acceptance/rejection ratio.
acceptance/rejection ratio isn't the whole story, since you have to see what kinds of students are applying. And most people that know for a fact that they won't be accepted don't bother applying.
Your little anecdote proves nothing, nor does your affirmative statement. Who cares if they play sc religiously? Playing something for fun is vastly different from playing something as your job, which you get paid for.
So you think being a doctor is easier than getting on the New York Times Bestseller list with an original work of fiction?
On December 29 2009 02:59 ghostWriter wrote: Really Chill? You agree with that moron? It might be hard to make a name for yourself in progaming, but there is no way that progaming is even close to being as competitive as medicine is.
Ok, I really hope you're not mentally deficient, otherwise it's pointless to continue. Drop-out rate at medical schools is less than 10%, actually 10% was a major concern somewhere so it's usually even lower (you can google it). And then compare it to hordes of koreans who try to become progamers but very few of them succeed.
Right except that medical schools weed out candidates based on whether or not they think that people will succeed. They also go out of their way to make sure that the people who want to go to medical school actually have a passion for it. This less than 10% comes from the people who claimed to have a passion for medicine AND showed that they have the ability to learn and keep up with the material during their college years. The 10% would be comparing the number of people who dropped out of medical school with the number of people who were on A team but didn't have many televised games yet and decided to quit playing or something like that.
It's not even a parallel situation. The right one would be comparing the hordes of Koreans who try to become progamers to the hordes of students that try to get into medical school but don't succeed (most people drop the premed program of study because they can't even handle the college courses, never mind the classes that they would take in medical school), mostly because of low grades or a low test score.
Perhaps you could make the argument that the two things are different skill sets and thus cannot be compared a la apples to oranges, but what you're claiming now is just wrong.
Ie. I know several friends who are in med school now who scored over 90 percentile on their MCATs and LOVE SC and play it religiously yet are absolutely horrendous.
And btw, getting into a top tier MFA Creative Writing program is literally 10x harder than getting into a top tier medical school by the acceptance/rejection ratio.
acceptance/rejection ratio isn't the whole story, since you have to see what kinds of students are applying. And most people that know for a fact that they won't be accepted don't bother applying.
Your little anecdote proves nothing, nor does your affirmative statement. Who cares if they play sc religiously? Playing something for fun is vastly different from playing something as your job, which you get paid for.
So you think being a doctor is easier than getting on the New York Times Bestseller list with an original work of fiction?
So you think that getting on the New York Times Bestseller list with an original work of fiction is easier than creating a new method for a surgical procedure?
On December 29 2009 02:59 ghostWriter wrote: Really Chill? You agree with that moron? It might be hard to make a name for yourself in progaming, but there is no way that progaming is even close to being as competitive as medicine is.
Ok, I really hope you're not mentally deficient, otherwise it's pointless to continue. Drop-out rate at medical schools is less than 10%, actually 10% was a major concern somewhere so it's usually even lower (you can google it). And then compare it to hordes of koreans who try to become progamers but very few of them succeed.
Right except that medical schools weed out candidates based on whether or not they think that people will succeed. They also go out of their way to make sure that the people who want to go to medical school actually have a passion for it. This less than 10% comes from the people who claimed to have a passion for medicine AND showed that they have the ability to learn and keep up with the material during their college years. The 10% would be comparing the number of people who dropped out of medical school with the number of people who were on A team but didn't have many televised games yet and decided to quit playing or something like that.
It's not even a parallel situation. The right one would be comparing the hordes of Koreans who try to become progamers to the hordes of students that try to get into medical school but don't succeed (most people drop the premed program of study because they can't even handle the college courses, never mind the classes that they would take in medical school), mostly because of low grades or a low test score.
Perhaps you could make the argument that the two things are different skill sets and thus cannot be compared a la apples to oranges, but what you're claiming now is just wrong.
Ie. I know several friends who are in med school now who scored over 90 percentile on their MCATs and LOVE SC and play it religiously yet are absolutely horrendous.
And btw, getting into a top tier MFA Creative Writing program is literally 10x harder than getting into a top tier medical school by the acceptance/rejection ratio.
acceptance/rejection ratio isn't the whole story, since you have to see what kinds of students are applying. And most people that know for a fact that they won't be accepted don't bother applying.
Your little anecdote proves nothing, nor does your affirmative statement. Who cares if they play sc religiously? Playing something for fun is vastly different from playing something as your job, which you get paid for.
So you think being a doctor is easier than getting on the New York Times Bestseller list with an original work of fiction?
Just stop arguing with him, ive given up on it. He seems pretty hell-bent on being right and not accepting any other view.
becoming a doctor isn't that bad -.- once you get into med school you are pretty much done as long as you can grind it out and getting into med school isn't too bad as long as you have focussed during undergrad
On December 29 2009 02:59 ghostWriter wrote: Really Chill? You agree with that moron? It might be hard to make a name for yourself in progaming, but there is no way that progaming is even close to being as competitive as medicine is.
Ok, I really hope you're not mentally deficient, otherwise it's pointless to continue. Drop-out rate at medical schools is less than 10%, actually 10% was a major concern somewhere so it's usually even lower (you can google it). And then compare it to hordes of koreans who try to become progamers but very few of them succeed.
Right except that medical schools weed out candidates based on whether or not they think that people will succeed. They also go out of their way to make sure that the people who want to go to medical school actually have a passion for it. This less than 10% comes from the people who claimed to have a passion for medicine AND showed that they have the ability to learn and keep up with the material during their college years. The 10% would be comparing the number of people who dropped out of medical school with the number of people who were on A team but didn't have many televised games yet and decided to quit playing or something like that.
It's not even a parallel situation. The right one would be comparing the hordes of Koreans who try to become progamers to the hordes of students that try to get into medical school but don't succeed (most people drop the premed program of study because they can't even handle the college courses, never mind the classes that they would take in medical school), mostly because of low grades or a low test score.
Perhaps you could make the argument that the two things are different skill sets and thus cannot be compared a la apples to oranges, but what you're claiming now is just wrong.
Ie. I know several friends who are in med school now who scored over 90 percentile on their MCATs and LOVE SC and play it religiously yet are absolutely horrendous.
And btw, getting into a top tier MFA Creative Writing program is literally 10x harder than getting into a top tier medical school by the acceptance/rejection ratio.
acceptance/rejection ratio isn't the whole story, since you have to see what kinds of students are applying. And most people that know for a fact that they won't be accepted don't bother applying.
Your little anecdote proves nothing, nor does your affirmative statement. Who cares if they play sc religiously? Playing something for fun is vastly different from playing something as your job, which you get paid for.
So you think being a doctor is easier than getting on the New York Times Bestseller list with an original work of fiction?
So you think that getting on the New York Times Bestseller list with an original work of fiction is easier than creating a new method for a surgical procedure?
Lol. You must not know much about writing. You need to make the NYT's to even quit your day job to become a writer. You made a fail analogy. NYT's is not the pinnacle. It's a standard. That's what you gotta do to even come close to seeing the bank that your average doctor gets.
Average book advance nets you maybe 10-15K, maybe 25K if you're in the literary genre.
TBH though, I'm just trolling you. You need to realize how dumb your argument is and let it go.
On December 29 2009 02:59 ghostWriter wrote: Really Chill? You agree with that moron? It might be hard to make a name for yourself in progaming, but there is no way that progaming is even close to being as competitive as medicine is.
Ok, I really hope you're not mentally deficient, otherwise it's pointless to continue. Drop-out rate at medical schools is less than 10%, actually 10% was a major concern somewhere so it's usually even lower (you can google it). And then compare it to hordes of koreans who try to become progamers but very few of them succeed.
Right except that medical schools weed out candidates based on whether or not they think that people will succeed. They also go out of their way to make sure that the people who want to go to medical school actually have a passion for it. This less than 10% comes from the people who claimed to have a passion for medicine AND showed that they have the ability to learn and keep up with the material during their college years. The 10% would be comparing the number of people who dropped out of medical school with the number of people who were on A team but didn't have many televised games yet and decided to quit playing or something like that.
It's not even a parallel situation. The right one would be comparing the hordes of Koreans who try to become progamers to the hordes of students that try to get into medical school but don't succeed (most people drop the premed program of study because they can't even handle the college courses, never mind the classes that they would take in medical school), mostly because of low grades or a low test score.
Perhaps you could make the argument that the two things are different skill sets and thus cannot be compared a la apples to oranges, but what you're claiming now is just wrong.
Ie. I know several friends who are in med school now who scored over 90 percentile on their MCATs and LOVE SC and play it religiously yet are absolutely horrendous.
And btw, getting into a top tier MFA Creative Writing program is literally 10x harder than getting into a top tier medical school by the acceptance/rejection ratio.
acceptance/rejection ratio isn't the whole story, since you have to see what kinds of students are applying. And most people that know for a fact that they won't be accepted don't bother applying.
Your little anecdote proves nothing, nor does your affirmative statement. Who cares if they play sc religiously? Playing something for fun is vastly different from playing something as your job, which you get paid for.
So you think being a doctor is easier than getting on the New York Times Bestseller list with an original work of fiction?
Just stop arguing with him, ive given up on it. He seems pretty hell-bent on being right and not accepting any other view.
This. >_> Especially considering that being a doctor is hard more so due to the monopolistic field and barrier for entry via med-school than the talent needed for becoming a doctor.
I'm not considering B level progamers when I talk about this. Maybe that's the point of confusion. But talking about how hard your life is doing residencies for 80 hours is really irrelevant. What does that have to do with talent? Yeah, it sucks, and yeah, most people won't want to do that. But again, nothing to do with talent. The talent I see involved with being a doctor is simply having a good memory. How much your life sucks doing residency or having to endure the boredom of memorizing stuff is really irrelevant.. I already said it requires more effort (indeed it requires a ton of effort).
I am pretty sure 80% of the people have the intelligence to become a doctor. How is it hard? You have to memorize a ton of stuff. But it's light on math. Yeah it will take a lot of hours of studying. But most people could spend the hours and do it.
But yeah you need to be both a progamer and a doctor to have a valid opinion on this.
On December 29 2009 02:59 ghostWriter wrote: Really Chill? You agree with that moron? It might be hard to make a name for yourself in progaming, but there is no way that progaming is even close to being as competitive as medicine is.
Ok, I really hope you're not mentally deficient, otherwise it's pointless to continue. Drop-out rate at medical schools is less than 10%, actually 10% was a major concern somewhere so it's usually even lower (you can google it). And then compare it to hordes of koreans who try to become progamers but very few of them succeed.
Right except that medical schools weed out candidates based on whether or not they think that people will succeed. They also go out of their way to make sure that the people who want to go to medical school actually have a passion for it. This less than 10% comes from the people who claimed to have a passion for medicine AND showed that they have the ability to learn and keep up with the material during their college years. The 10% would be comparing the number of people who dropped out of medical school with the number of people who were on A team but didn't have many televised games yet and decided to quit playing or something like that.
It's not even a parallel situation. The right one would be comparing the hordes of Koreans who try to become progamers to the hordes of students that try to get into medical school but don't succeed (most people drop the premed program of study because they can't even handle the college courses, never mind the classes that they would take in medical school), mostly because of low grades or a low test score.
Perhaps you could make the argument that the two things are different skill sets and thus cannot be compared a la apples to oranges, but what you're claiming now is just wrong.
Ie. I know several friends who are in med school now who scored over 90 percentile on their MCATs and LOVE SC and play it religiously yet are absolutely horrendous.
And btw, getting into a top tier MFA Creative Writing program is literally 10x harder than getting into a top tier medical school by the acceptance/rejection ratio.
acceptance/rejection ratio isn't the whole story, since you have to see what kinds of students are applying. And most people that know for a fact that they won't be accepted don't bother applying.
Your little anecdote proves nothing, nor does your affirmative statement. Who cares if they play sc religiously? Playing something for fun is vastly different from playing something as your job, which you get paid for.
So you think being a doctor is easier than getting on the New York Times Bestseller list with an original work of fiction?
Just stop arguing with him, ive given up on it. He seems pretty hell-bent on being right and not accepting any other view.
Yes because you not being a progamer nor a doctor gives you the ability to make qualitative judgments on both careers.
On December 29 2009 03:42 errol1001 wrote: I'm not considering B level progamers when I talk about this. Maybe that's the point of confusion. But talking about how hard your life is doing residencies for 80 hours is really irrelevant. What does that have to do with talent? Yeah, it sucks, and yeah, most people won't want to do that. But again, nothing to do with talent. The talent I see involved with being a doctor is simply having a good memory. How much your life sucks doing residency or having to endure the boredom of memorizing stuff is really irrelevant.. I already said it requires more effort (indeed it requires a ton of effort).
B level progamers are progamers too and you can't just discount them. The point about residencies was just to point out that the average doctor puts in many more hours than the average progamer into his profession. And what does talent have to do with progaming? For medicine, it's about problem solving, finding out what is actually wrong with the patient and curing them. Progaming is mostly about doing the same things over and over again, learning the counters to different build orders for different maps. Where's the talent in knowing that 12hatch is better than 12pool? This kind of knowledge comes from hours of playing games, repeating the same build orders over and over again to perfect them and seeing what counters them and what doesn't.
I definately still believe it can be done in Korea.
I don't want to make excuses or anything, but there are guys who won their courage group this past weekend that I have played a lot with online and I had huge winning records on them. (T/P users). And I know other foreigners would do well vs them also.
But for me personally, age is a huge factor like some people here pointed out. If I was younger, I wouldn't even think twice about what to do and just keep trying my best and eventually win courage and just keep trying. But yes I am quite old, so wasting time would be bad, and with SC2 coming out I don't know how feasible it is to stay. I think someone like Kolll (very young, already very good, and not yet ruined by all the freedom you get after high school :p) would succeed here quite easily. I absolutely hate the fact that I 'failed' however, and it just hurts more to see players worse than you do well. Maybe I should try one more time D:
On December 29 2009 04:01 ret wrote: I definately still believe it can be done in Korea.
I don't want to make excuses or anything, but there are guys who won their courage group this past weekend that I have played a lot with online and I had huge winning records on them. (T/P users). And I know other foreigners would do well vs them also.
But for me personally, age is a huge factor like some people here pointed out. If I was younger, I wouldn't even think twice about what to do and just keep trying my best and eventually win courage and just keep trying. But yes I am quite old, so wasting time would be bad, and with SC2 coming out I don't know how feasible it is to stay. I think someone like Kolll (very young, already very good) would succeed here quite easily. I absolutely hate the fact that I 'failed' however, and it just hurts more to see players worse than you do well. Maybe I should try one more time D:
Whatever you do ret, I wish you the best of luck. <3
The final decision is always yours. If you leave Korea, you may never come back. If you think that you may regret never giving another shot if you leave that country, then go for it, give one last shot. You got only one life to live, man. So live it.
Even as someone whos only gotten into the sc korean scene a couple of years ago it was fairly obvious that the pros have to sacrifice everything to be on a team, going into korean gaming house expecting to have near any free time is plain foolish. However I do understand how people need to experience it first hand although it may be wasting the teams time, anyways goodluck to ret and others in the future all the best, hopefully this insightful post will silence the tears.
On December 29 2009 04:01 ret wrote: I definately still believe it can be done in Korea.
I don't want to make excuses or anything, but there are guys who won their courage group this past weekend that I have played a lot with online and I had huge winning records on them. (T/P users). And I know other foreigners would do well vs them also.
But for me personally, age is a huge factor like some people here pointed out. If I was younger, I wouldn't even think twice about what to do and just keep trying my best and eventually win courage and just keep trying. But yes I am quite old, so wasting time would be bad, and with SC2 coming out I don't know how feasible it is to stay. I think someone like Kolll (very young, already very good, and not yet ruined by all the freedom you get after high school :p) would succeed here quite easily. I absolutely hate the fact that I 'failed' however, and it just hurts more to see players worse than you do well. Maybe I should try one more time D:
why are you upset then if you know your better than them and you know people don't win courage for years...?
On December 29 2009 04:01 ret wrote: I definately still believe it can be done in Korea.
I don't want to make excuses or anything, but there are guys who won their courage group this past weekend that I have played a lot with online and I had huge winning records on them. (T/P users). And I know other foreigners would do well vs them also.
But for me personally, age is a huge factor like some people here pointed out. If I was younger, I wouldn't even think twice about what to do and just keep trying my best and eventually win courage and just keep trying. But yes I am quite old, so wasting time would be bad, and with SC2 coming out I don't know how feasible it is to stay. I think someone like Kolll (very young, already very good, and not yet ruined by all the freedom you get after high school :p) would succeed here quite easily. I absolutely hate the fact that I 'failed' however, and it just hurts more to see players worse than you do well. Maybe I should try one more time D:
Ret have you considered taking donations to help you stay for more chances at courage? We all believe in you! Keep working on your zvz and keep practicing!
Also, keep practicing for the TSL. You can beat Idra!
On December 29 2009 04:01 ret wrote: I definately still believe it can be done in Korea.
I don't want to make excuses or anything, but there are guys who won their courage group this past weekend that I have played a lot with online and I had huge winning records on them. (T/P users). And I know other foreigners would do well vs them also.
But for me personally, age is a huge factor like some people here pointed out. If I was younger, I wouldn't even think twice about what to do and just keep trying my best and eventually win courage and just keep trying. But yes I am quite old, so wasting time would be bad, and with SC2 coming out I don't know how feasible it is to stay. I think someone like Kolll (very young, already very good, and not yet ruined by all the freedom you get after high school :p) would succeed here quite easily. I absolutely hate the fact that I 'failed' however, and it just hurts more to see players worse than you do well. Maybe I should try one more time D:
being successful in TSL is a first step to rebuild your confidence !
seeing how grateful ret is to his friends in korea already, i dont think he would want to. then again im not ret. i dont think ret is young enough, and only stay if you can pay for it on your own, so you dont feel like a leecher.
On December 29 2009 04:01 ret wrote: I definately still believe it can be done in Korea.
I don't want to make excuses or anything, but there are guys who won their courage group this past weekend that I have played a lot with online and I had huge winning records on them. (T/P users). And I know other foreigners would do well vs them also.
But for me personally, age is a huge factor like some people here pointed out. If I was younger, I wouldn't even think twice about what to do and just keep trying my best and eventually win courage and just keep trying. But yes I am quite old, so wasting time would be bad, and with SC2 coming out I don't know how feasible it is to stay. I think someone like Kolll (very young, already very good, and not yet ruined by all the freedom you get after high school :p) would succeed here quite easily. I absolutely hate the fact that I 'failed' however, and it just hurts more to see players worse than you do well. Maybe I should try one more time D:
Your family and friends will certainly help the most for making a decision.. I certainly don't know enough about you to say much. I don't know your interests, or what you'd be going home to do.
I don't think you're old, though I guess it depends on what you have already accomplished. If you're completed college, that just doesn't sound bad to me. You've got 30+ years of work ahead of you. I don't think a month or two to make another attempt or two at courage is really relevant on the time scale.
What seems more important to me is what comes after courage. Getting into a new progamer house - will it be any different there? Think you can put up with the life style then, for months, years? What are the pros and cons after courage?
I want to preface what I post with this; I love progaming and it has been/ is still very enjoyable as a spectator. That being said, I don't understand why anyone does it, especially foreigners going to Korea for SC. Yes you can do what you enjoy as a profession, but there are so many negative aspects to it. You won't be a progamer when you're 35, let alone those that fizzle out at 23, and then you're in Korea having spent the majority of your time on what "normal" people spend to pursue their careers/ education. Another huge factor is that it's an incredibly difficult job to get and once you get it you're sitting at a computer playing a VIDEO GAMMMMME for 16 hrs a day learning nothing else even remotely relevant to life. In my opinion, the opportunity cost alone should be enough to deter any foreigner from even attempting to go to Korea, and rightfully so. Now I sure as hell don't want Idra/Ret/whoever else to listen to me if all they want to do in life is play professional SC, but I just don't see the rationale. Someone enlighten me if possible.
What's the point to going to Korea now when SC2 will come out soon? I mean you can go to Korea and work on your BW skill like crazy to become a B team member or you can stay where you are and with the same effort make big $$$ in SC2
On December 29 2009 04:23 InsideTheBox wrote: I want to preface what I post with this; I love progaming and it has been/ is still very enjoyable as a spectator. That being said, I don't understand why anyone does it, especially foreigners going to Korea for SC. Yes you can do what you enjoy as a profession, but there are so many negative aspects to it. You won't be a progamer when you're 35, let alone those that fizzle out at 23, and then you're in Korea having spent the majority of your time on what "normal" people spend to pursue their careers/ education. Another huge factor is that it's an incredibly difficult job to get and once you get it you're sitting at a computer playing a VIDEO GAMMMMME for 16 hrs a day learning nothing else even remotely relevant to life. In my opinion, the opportunity cost alone should be enough to deter any foreigner from even attempting to go to Korea, and rightfully so. Now I sure as hell don't want Idra/Ret/whoever else to listen to me if all they want to do in life is play professional SC, but I just don't see the rationale. Someone enlighten me if possible.
Actually, I think one thing you can take away from it is a very strong work ethic, which is relevant for all jobs. I know it sounds weird - work ethic and games - but if you can practice starcraft for a dozen hours a day, every day, you should be able to succeed at whatever you decide to do after progaming.
On December 29 2009 04:23 InsideTheBox wrote: I want to preface what I post with this; I love progaming and it has been/ is still very enjoyable as a spectator. That being said, I don't understand why anyone does it, especially foreigners going to Korea for SC. Yes you can do what you enjoy as a profession, but there are so many negative aspects to it. You won't be a progamer when you're 35, let alone those that fizzle out at 23, and then you're in Korea having spent the majority of your time on what "normal" people spend to pursue their careers/ education. Another huge factor is that it's an incredibly difficult job to get and once you get it you're sitting at a computer playing a VIDEO GAMMMMME for 16 hrs a day learning nothing else even remotely relevant to life. In my opinion, the opportunity cost alone should be enough to deter any foreigner from even attempting to go to Korea, and rightfully so. Now I sure as hell don't want Idra/Ret/whoever else to listen to me if all they want to do in life is play professional SC, but I just don't see the rationale. Someone enlighten me if possible.
Some people *enjoy* playing the game, and doing something you enjoy is a huge benefit that outweighs the opportunity cost (I'm obviously not saying this is case for everyone, and hence not many people take the progaming route of life). I guess somewhat fitting analogy would be attempting to become an NBA/NHL/NFL athlete?
On December 29 2009 02:59 ghostWriter wrote: Really Chill? You agree with that moron? It might be hard to make a name for yourself in progaming, but there is no way that progaming is even close to being as competitive as medicine is.
Ok, I really hope you're not mentally deficient, otherwise it's pointless to continue. Drop-out rate at medical schools is less than 10%, actually 10% was a major concern somewhere so it's usually even lower (you can google it). And then compare it to hordes of koreans who try to become progamers but very few of them succeed.
Right except that medical schools weed out candidates based on whether or not they think that people will succeed. They also go out of their way to make sure that the people who want to go to medical school actually have a passion for it. This less than 10% comes from the people who claimed to have a passion for medicine AND showed that they have the ability to learn and keep up with the material during their college years. The 10% would be comparing the number of people who dropped out of medical school with the number of people who were on A team but didn't have many televised games yet and decided to quit playing or something like that.
It's not even a parallel situation. The right one would be comparing the hordes of Koreans who try to become progamers to the hordes of students that try to get into medical school but don't succeed (most people drop the premed program of study because they can't even handle the college courses, never mind the classes that they would take in medical school), mostly because of low grades or a low test score.
Perhaps you could make the argument that the two things are different skill sets and thus cannot be compared a la apples to oranges, but what you're claiming now is just wrong.
Ie. I know several friends who are in med school now who scored over 90 percentile on their MCATs and LOVE SC and play it religiously yet are absolutely horrendous.
And btw, getting into a top tier MFA Creative Writing program is literally 10x harder than getting into a top tier medical school by the acceptance/rejection ratio.
acceptance/rejection ratio isn't the whole story, since you have to see what kinds of students are applying. And most people that know for a fact that they won't be accepted don't bother applying.
Your little anecdote proves nothing, nor does your affirmative statement. Who cares if they play sc religiously? Playing something for fun is vastly different from playing something as your job, which you get paid for.
So you think being a doctor is easier than getting on the New York Times Bestseller list with an original work of fiction?
Just stop arguing with him, ive given up on it. He seems pretty hell-bent on being right and not accepting any other view.
Yes because you not being a progamer nor a doctor gives you the ability to make qualitative judgments on both careers.
On December 29 2009 03:42 errol1001 wrote: I'm not considering B level progamers when I talk about this. Maybe that's the point of confusion. But talking about how hard your life is doing residencies for 80 hours is really irrelevant. What does that have to do with talent? Yeah, it sucks, and yeah, most people won't want to do that. But again, nothing to do with talent. The talent I see involved with being a doctor is simply having a good memory. How much your life sucks doing residency or having to endure the boredom of memorizing stuff is really irrelevant.. I already said it requires more effort (indeed it requires a ton of effort).
B level progamers are progamers too and you can't just discount them. The point about residencies was just to point out that the average doctor puts in many more hours than the average progamer into his profession. And what does talent have to do with progaming? For medicine, it's about problem solving, finding out what is actually wrong with the patient and curing them. Progaming is mostly about doing the same things over and over again, learning the counters to different build orders for different maps. Where's the talent in knowing that 12hatch is better than 12pool? This kind of knowledge comes from hours of playing games, repeating the same build orders over and over again to perfect them and seeing what counters them and what doesn't.
Wow... What you just said to me makes 0 sense... I am not taking either side, I was just telling him to stop arguing.
Ret, if you want to stay and keep trying I think that's a commendable thing. This thread must be a difficult thing to read through, especially with the amount of bandwagoning going on...
Have you considered trying to stay until TSL2?
The last thing you want to be doing is digging yourself into a depressed hole where you view it as a personal failing. You clearly have enough skill to pass courage with time, and the last thing you should do is quit if you feel that you'll regret it
On December 29 2009 03:43 Glaucus wrote: I am pretty sure 80% of the people have the intelligence to become a doctor. How is it hard? You have to memorize a ton of stuff. But it's light on math. Yeah it will take a lot of hours of studying. But most people could spend the hours and do it.
But yeah you need to be both a progamer and a doctor to have a valid opinion on this.
Honestly the only reason I didn't want to be a doctor is because I can't stand blood. Not sure what it is, I can stand to see my own or others as long as I know they will be ok (ex. in a fight.) But if i know they are gonna die eventually I cant take that...
On December 29 2009 04:23 InsideTheBox wrote: I want to preface what I post with this; I love progaming and it has been/ is still very enjoyable as a spectator. That being said, I don't understand why anyone does it, especially foreigners going to Korea for SC. Yes you can do what you enjoy as a profession, but there are so many negative aspects to it. You won't be a progamer when you're 35, let alone those that fizzle out at 23, and then you're in Korea having spent the majority of your time on what "normal" people spend to pursue their careers/ education. Another huge factor is that it's an incredibly difficult job to get and once you get it you're sitting at a computer playing a VIDEO GAMMMMME for 16 hrs a day learning nothing else even remotely relevant to life. In my opinion, the opportunity cost alone should be enough to deter any foreigner from even attempting to go to Korea, and rightfully so. Now I sure as hell don't want Idra/Ret/whoever else to listen to me if all they want to do in life is play professional SC, but I just don't see the rationale. Someone enlighten me if possible.
Some people *enjoy* playing the game, and doing something you enjoy is a huge benefit that outweighs the opportunity cost (I'm obviously not saying this is case for everyone, and hence not many people take the progaming route of life). I guess somewhat fitting analogy would be attempting to become an NBA/NHL/NFL athlete?
Thats a terrible analogy because they dont have to spend as much time working on it, they usually get some sort of education while pursuing their dream, if they succeed they will make a lot of money, and they will have a long enough career so that they will be set for the rest of their lives. Also, they can pursue a somewhat normal life along side their professional lives.
On December 29 2009 04:35 Piy wrote: Ret, if you want to stay and keep trying I think that's a commendable thing. This thread must be a difficult thing to read through, especially with the amount of bandwagoning going on...
Have you considered trying to stay until TSL2?
The last thing you want to be doing is digging yourself into a depressed hole where you view it as a personal failing. You clearly have enough skill to pass courage with time, and the last thing you should do is quit if you feel that you'll regret it
theres nothing depressing about my post
living in artosis's cardboard box can be depressing tho
Highly skeptical of the idea of Koreans being "xenophobic".
meh.
The doctor comments have to be trolls. Just one of many examples of ridiculous doctor hours are the 30+ hour shifts they force on residents(the number seems low). That's not talking about the consistently long hours through med school and being on call later in life.
On December 29 2009 04:23 InsideTheBox wrote: I want to preface what I post with this; I love progaming and it has been/ is still very enjoyable as a spectator. That being said, I don't understand why anyone does it, especially foreigners going to Korea for SC. Yes you can do what you enjoy as a profession, but there are so many negative aspects to it. You won't be a progamer when you're 35, let alone those that fizzle out at 23, and then you're in Korea having spent the majority of your time on what "normal" people spend to pursue their careers/ education. Another huge factor is that it's an incredibly difficult job to get and once you get it you're sitting at a computer playing a VIDEO GAMMMMME for 16 hrs a day learning nothing else even remotely relevant to life. In my opinion, the opportunity cost alone should be enough to deter any foreigner from even attempting to go to Korea, and rightfully so. Now I sure as hell don't want Idra/Ret/whoever else to listen to me if all they want to do in life is play professional SC, but I just don't see the rationale. Someone enlighten me if possible.
Actually this experience can very quickly teach you a lot about life - specifically who you are, what you want and need, and where you really want to go. Things that are important that you will miss by drifting through normal life like everyone does. You make these stark realizations in moments of change.
On December 29 2009 04:35 Piy wrote: Ret, if you want to stay and keep trying I think that's a commendable thing. This thread must be a difficult thing to read through, especially with the amount of bandwagoning going on...
Have you considered trying to stay until TSL2?
The last thing you want to be doing is digging yourself into a depressed hole where you view it as a personal failing. You clearly have enough skill to pass courage with time, and the last thing you should do is quit if you feel that you'll regret it
theres nothing depressing about my post
living in artosis's cardboard box can be depressing tho
Whoa, whoa, whoa. A lot of my best nights in Korea started or ending in Artosis' house.
On December 29 2009 02:41 SkytoM wrote: To be a progamer is definitly A LOT harder than to be a doctor..
what is hard at beeing a doctor? Maybe i see it in that because i come from an academic family, but doctor is like lawyer. you chose it, study it and then with time, you're a doctor. nothing hard there.
?
That argument is literally identical to a progamer. You choose it, study it, and with time you're a progamer. Nothing hard there.
The main difference is competitiveness, it's insane in case of Korean SC and almost non-existent in medicine, at least compared to progaming. The point I'm trying to make is that becoming a progamer is more complex (i.e. not everybody will succeed no matter how much time they spend and how hard they try), while becoming a doctor is harder (the total amount of work and time spent is larger but if you're interested and not stupid you will be fine).
The competition to become a doctor is many times greater than pro gaming, with absolutely no doubt whatsoever.
On December 29 2009 04:01 ret wrote: I definately still believe it can be done in Korea.
I don't want to make excuses or anything, but there are guys who won their courage group this past weekend that I have played a lot with online and I had huge winning records on them. (T/P users). And I know other foreigners would do well vs them also.
But for me personally, age is a huge factor like some people here pointed out. If I was younger, I wouldn't even think twice about what to do and just keep trying my best and eventually win courage and just keep trying. But yes I am quite old, so wasting time would be bad, and with SC2 coming out I don't know how feasible it is to stay. I think someone like Kolll (very young, already very good, and not yet ruined by all the freedom you get after high school :p) would succeed here quite easily. I absolutely hate the fact that I 'failed' however, and it just hurts more to see players worse than you do well. Maybe I should try one more time D:
whatever ur choice is ret, just make sure u won't look back and regret the decision u made, good luck and god bless...
On December 29 2009 04:35 Piy wrote: Ret, if you want to stay and keep trying I think that's a commendable thing. This thread must be a difficult thing to read through, especially with the amount of bandwagoning going on...
Have you considered trying to stay until TSL2?
The last thing you want to be doing is digging yourself into a depressed hole where you view it as a personal failing. You clearly have enough skill to pass courage with time, and the last thing you should do is quit if you feel that you'll regret it
theres nothing depressing about my post
living in artosis's cardboard box can be depressing tho
and there u go hustling money matches off the poor guy...
Just switch it around. If it was an all european/american team and suddenly some random big ass asian comes on the team. He doesn't even play ZvZ and doesn't speak english. What would you do? Fuck I wouldn't play him unless he was really really good and I could learn from him by playing him w/o talking with him. But if it's 50-50 or 70-30 in my favor then forget about it.
Thanks for the post rekrul, amazingly informative and I really had no idea how things work over there. It sounds like pro SC players train 5 times the amount of any other sport to have ever existed.. pretty crazy
On December 29 2009 04:23 InsideTheBox wrote: I want to preface what I post with this; I love progaming and it has been/ is still very enjoyable as a spectator. That being said, I don't understand why anyone does it, especially foreigners going to Korea for SC. Yes you can do what you enjoy as a profession, but there are so many negative aspects to it. You won't be a progamer when you're 35, let alone those that fizzle out at 23, and then you're in Korea having spent the majority of your time on what "normal" people spend to pursue their careers/ education. Another huge factor is that it's an incredibly difficult job to get and once you get it you're sitting at a computer playing a VIDEO GAMMMMME for 16 hrs a day learning nothing else even remotely relevant to life. In my opinion, the opportunity cost alone should be enough to deter any foreigner from even attempting to go to Korea, and rightfully so. Now I sure as hell don't want Idra/Ret/whoever else to listen to me if all they want to do in life is play professional SC, but I just don't see the rationale. Someone enlighten me if possible.
Some people *enjoy* playing the game, and doing something you enjoy is a huge benefit that outweighs the opportunity cost (I'm obviously not saying this is case for everyone, and hence not many people take the progaming route of life). I guess somewhat fitting analogy would be attempting to become an NBA/NHL/NFL athlete?
i think one of the points in this discussion is social exceptance. I mean half the math questions in my gr 6 textbook were about sports. And when your older, your socially excepted, and its a cool thing to do, even if you were one of the lesser tier players, because it still shoewd dedication and what not. But the world right now does not see computer games as acceptable, and only recently was being a game designer a cool thing to do, as even women are getting those wii fit things.
If it came down to being the bomb everywhere I go, even if I sucked horribly at it, then id pick 24/7 hockey over 24/7 starcraft :/
On December 29 2009 02:59 ghostWriter wrote: Really Chill? You agree with that moron? It might be hard to make a name for yourself in progaming, but there is no way that progaming is even close to being as competitive as medicine is.
Ok, I really hope you're not mentally deficient, otherwise it's pointless to continue. Drop-out rate at medical schools is less than 10%, actually 10% was a major concern somewhere so it's usually even lower (you can google it). And then compare it to hordes of koreans who try to become progamers but very few of them succeed.
Right except that medical schools weed out candidates based on whether or not they think that people will succeed. They also go out of their way to make sure that the people who want to go to medical school actually have a passion for it. This less than 10% comes from the people who claimed to have a passion for medicine AND showed that they have the ability to learn and keep up with the material during their college years. The 10% would be comparing the number of people who dropped out of medical school with the number of people who were on A team but didn't have many televised games yet and decided to quit playing or something like that.
It's not even a parallel situation. The right one would be comparing the hordes of Koreans who try to become progamers to the hordes of students that try to get into medical school but don't succeed (most people drop the premed program of study because they can't even handle the college courses, never mind the classes that they would take in medical school), mostly because of low grades or a low test score.
Perhaps you could make the argument that the two things are different skill sets and thus cannot be compared a la apples to oranges, but what you're claiming now is just wrong.
Ie. I know several friends who are in med school now who scored over 90 percentile on their MCATs and LOVE SC and play it religiously yet are absolutely horrendous.
And btw, getting into a top tier MFA Creative Writing program is literally 10x harder than getting into a top tier medical school by the acceptance/rejection ratio.
acceptance/rejection ratio isn't the whole story, since you have to see what kinds of students are applying. And most people that know for a fact that they won't be accepted don't bother applying.
Your little anecdote proves nothing, nor does your affirmative statement. Who cares if they play sc religiously? Playing something for fun is vastly different from playing something as your job, which you get paid for.
So you think being a doctor is easier than getting on the New York Times Bestseller list with an original work of fiction?
You are an idiot. I held myself back when I read your posts in "post a picture of you and your girlfriend thread" but your brain must be made out of brick. You decide that you thoroughly know the medical field and blindly state that a writing program is ten times harder. What the fuck? That claim has no basis whatsoever, especially considering that acceptance/rejection ratio does not directly relate to how "hard" it is to get in there. Your little story about your friends does not add to your argument either. ghostwriter's right. The comparison should be the horde of Koreans trying to become progamers to high school/college students who aspire to be doctors, but change to alternative career because they cannot compete with other pre-med students in science classes.
And then you compare being a doctor to the highest success one can achieve as a writer. Lol. How about something like, finding a cure to a new disease to getting on the bestseller list?
"I am not going to post pictures of me and my girlfriend because I actually *respect* her and don't want internet nerds fapping to her pics." Lol.
I hope Ret doesn't get all depressed and starts feeling like he failed.
He lost 1st courage to the guy who won the whole event. He lost the second courage playing ZvZ, a luckfest.
Those two say NOTHING about anything. Nony could've been paired up with the guy he lost to in the finals and same thing would've happened.
Koreans didn't go out their way to help him out; not his fault, nor their fault, just 2 different worlds and everyone living the way they're used to live. He went there, he tried, the circumstances were obviously not right.
An experience like this is worth having and he'll grow as a person.
This is why I much rather be a fan than a progamer. Fuck having to play 14 hours a day - I have a life. The vast majority of the progamers have a really shitty life that's really unrewarding when you consider all the effort they put into playing the game. It's "effort", not "fun", when playing a game is your job.
rekrul, you cannot deny a portion of female Korean population is retardedly favorable to big white males and its pretty clear from all your flaunts that you took good advantage of it
if you go to a foreign country (especially a homogeneous one like korea), you should make a herculian effort to learn the language and fit into the society..otherwise, they have all the reason to not incorporate you into their own group...but from my experience, some koreans try to do that anyway
overall, my point is that: you haven't said anything flat-out wrong (except for the koreans being insnaely xenophobic), but i have the problem with the way you say it as if it deserves your contempt and scorn, when it's only reasonalbe what the koreans (and the teams) expect and, on a slightly different note, korea has clearly treated you better than you make it out to be on your post
On December 29 2009 04:23 InsideTheBox wrote: I want to preface what I post with this; I love progaming and it has been/ is still very enjoyable as a spectator. That being said, I don't understand why anyone does it, especially foreigners going to Korea for SC. Yes you can do what you enjoy as a profession, but there are so many negative aspects to it. You won't be a progamer when you're 35, let alone those that fizzle out at 23, and then you're in Korea having spent the majority of your time on what "normal" people spend to pursue their careers/ education. Another huge factor is that it's an incredibly difficult job to get and once you get it you're sitting at a computer playing a VIDEO GAMMMMME for 16 hrs a day learning nothing else even remotely relevant to life. In my opinion, the opportunity cost alone should be enough to deter any foreigner from even attempting to go to Korea, and rightfully so. Now I sure as hell don't want Idra/Ret/whoever else to listen to me if all they want to do in life is play professional SC, but I just don't see the rationale. Someone enlighten me if possible.
Actually this experience can very quickly teach you a lot about life - specifically who you are, what you want and need, and where you really want to go. Things that are important that you will miss by drifting through normal life like everyone does. You make these stark realizations in moments of change.
I don't disagree, but I feel most people can make these realizations without the aid of what rekrul so endearingly labels as "slavery." 80+ hrs a week at an i-bank making pitchbooks as an analyst would surely yield similar results without the requisite travel to Korea/ attempt to win courage/ etc opportunity cost of progaming.
On December 29 2009 06:27 phosphorylation wrote: rekrul, you cannot deny a portion of female Korean population is retardedly favorable to big white males and its pretty clear from all your flaunts that you took good advantage of it
if you go to a foreign country (especially a homogeneous one like korea), you should make a herculian effort to learn the language and fit into the society..otherwise, they have all the reason to not incorporate you into their own group...but from my experience, some koreans try to do that anyway
overall, my point is that: you haven't said anything flat-out wrong (except for the koreans being insnaely xenophobic), but i have the problem with the way you say it as if it deserves your contempt and scorn, when it's only reasonalbe what the koreans (and the teams) expect and, on a slightly different note, korea has clearly treated you better than you make it out to be on your post
i was never talking about myself ever, koreans treat me EXTREMELY well...i am fluent in their language and understand their culture...ive never met a korean who didn't like me i think lol.
the part about being treated differently due to weight was merely i feel a slight difference than before, but its still totally fine
this post was only directed at progaming teams and ur avg sc nerd dreaming to join one
i was not knocking on koreans at all as all cultures in the world have their ups and downs.
if you think anywhere in my post suggested that progaming teams deserve my contempt or scorn then you lack reading comprehension. the situation itself, though, does deserve contempt and scorn because it's just far too extreme. but the industry is young, and competition is out of this world fierce so what can you really expect. it is what it is.
i honestly don't think the 'korean way' will carry over to sc2 at all. we still don't even know how hard the game will be, but i doubt with all the mbs bullshit it will take even close to the level of mechanics of sc1 (which is why so much practice is required). imo sc2 teams practice environment will be much more creative ones than slave shop ones. atleast the good teams, that is.
p.s. as far as the girls go, most korean girls would rather never really talk to a foreign guy, of course there is a decent amount that love the whites, but i don't really get to take advantage of that as i pretty much only go to clubs that are exclusively koreans.
but im all about educating the culturally uneducated!
cut the "lol" shit out and the article becomes 200 times more insightful and educational even.
I agree on the points of learning the Asian language of the country you are staying at. So many flops occur in professional sport transfers if the player does not adapt to the culture or the language of his new team in a new country. Suck it up and study the damn language, and your teammates and others will be more than impressed with you. Just look at Grrr and how long he has stayed in Korea, he even made guest appearances on those SC casual interview shows. Asians love foreigners that speak their language. It's not really that fucking complicated.
if you had to ask grrrr how koreans feel about foreigners he'd be even harsher than me. i live with the guy so you can't really use him as an argument against me LOL.
Good post and pretty much spot on. I dont like Idra but he deserves a lot of respect for being able to fit in. You can bet your ass he practiced hard, respected elders, was polite, stfu, understood team > himself. Thing is once you do get accepted you can kind of let go and be more yourself.
Well, this is a great thread! Thank you for clarifying alot of things, really helpful. Also, this thread is so huge that im not even going to say something about all that has been written here (didnt even read half of it). All i want to say is that i think RET seems to be a great guy, he does alot for the community and for ME - the streaming is awesome, he does all kinds of interviews, and he plays great starcraft. Its wierd actually to be such a fanboy for someone not even that famous, but thats just the case.
He wrote in the other thread that he was feeling really down after his performance, and gave some kind of list of his disappointing achievements thus far. And sure, if you to are an A-team player, they are. But if you´re a dutchman that just got to korea and hasnt even played in a proteam, losing to Terror [fou], getting knocked out of courage twice (first time by the winner of the whole thing 2-1, second time 2-1 zvz) is NOT BAD! terror is a great great great player, 2-1 times 2 is SO IMPRESSIVE, even taking games from koreans at this level is amazing. heck, hes not S class (yet)!! ' Well i guess this post is mostly aimed direcly towards ret. Whatever you chose to do, just know that i (and many with me) has enjoyed your journey and streaming and games a tremendous amount, and hope that you continue to do awesome stuff, in korea or at home, in SCI or SCII, and that we the true fans allways will support you. I dont know if this will help at all, but i felt that i had to write something, since im emotionally invested in this whole thing.
On December 29 2009 04:23 InsideTheBox wrote: I want to preface what I post with this; I love progaming and it has been/ is still very enjoyable as a spectator. That being said, I don't understand why anyone does it, especially foreigners going to Korea for SC. Yes you can do what you enjoy as a profession, but there are so many negative aspects to it. You won't be a progamer when you're 35, let alone those that fizzle out at 23, and then you're in Korea having spent the majority of your time on what "normal" people spend to pursue their careers/ education. Another huge factor is that it's an incredibly difficult job to get and once you get it you're sitting at a computer playing a VIDEO GAMMMMME for 16 hrs a day learning nothing else even remotely relevant to life. In my opinion, the opportunity cost alone should be enough to deter any foreigner from even attempting to go to Korea, and rightfully so. Now I sure as hell don't want Idra/Ret/whoever else to listen to me if all they want to do in life is play professional SC, but I just don't see the rationale. Someone enlighten me if possible.
Actually this experience can very quickly teach you a lot about life - specifically who you are, what you want and need, and where you really want to go. Things that are important that you will miss by drifting through normal life like everyone does. You make these stark realizations in moments of change.
I don't disagree, but I feel most people can make these realizations without the aid of what rekrul so endearingly labels as "slavery." 80+ hrs a week at an i-bank making pitchbooks as an analyst would surely yield similar results without the requisite travel to Korea/ attempt to win courage/ etc opportunity cost of progaming.
Ok. So who are you to judge someone for what they do? You're saying what he is doing has no value and now you agree it has value? So he's following his dream and gaining value, I see zero problems here.
On December 29 2009 04:01 ret wrote: I definately still believe it can be done in Korea.
I don't want to make excuses or anything, but there are guys who won their courage group this past weekend that I have played a lot with online and I had huge winning records on them. (T/P users). And I know other foreigners would do well vs them also.
(...)I absolutely hate the fact that I 'failed' however, and it just hurts more to see players worse than you do well. Maybe I should try one more time D:
I don't think you can do it with that mindset. I mean, you are 24. That's the age where you should get a feeling about what to do with your life. So what do you want to do with yours? If you _really_ want to be a progamer in starcraft and starcraft 2 or another RTS later on, "Maybe I should try one more time D:" is not enough. If the average b teamer plays 14 hours a day you have to play 15. If the average b teamer has only 20 days off per year, you should only take 19 days off. If the average b teamer thinks playing the same BO/map a hundred times is enough, you should play it 200 times. I mean, lets face it: despite your ridicolous skill, you are competing with people who play computer games/starcraft since they are 10.
Korean racism is well known I thought. They treat others extremely badly, especially those they consider lower than them like poorer Asian countries, blacks, etc.. Ret should be thankful he's at least white. Koreans, because of their history with America via the Korean war, and their respect for Anglo / European achievements, treat whites much, much better than other foreigners. With all this widely known, any foreigner who moves to Korea and is somehow shocked only has themself to blame.
Highly skeptical of the idea of Koreans being "xenophobic".
meh.
The doctor comments have to be trolls. Just one of many examples of ridiculous doctor hours are the 30+ hour shifts they force on residents(the number seems low). That's not talking about the consistently long hours through med school and being on call later in life.
1 more post showing a lack of reading comprehension. Amount of time, inconveniences, effort spent, are all completely irrelevant to a discussion about whether it takes more talent to be a doctor or a progamer. And no, I don't really consider B level progamers in this because they aren't succesful. I consider relevant the number of 'successful' progamers vs the number of successful doctors. And there are probably only a couple dozen people that I would consider to have been successful progamers, whereas there are close to 100000 doctors in korea alone (which, in order to be considered a doctor, you already are successful basically..). Seems to me like the number of people that can really thrive in progaming is a bucket compared to an ocean for doctors. Hell. Complaining about residency paying 50k - already more than all progamers except what.. maybe 15 people right now?
I guess this is the problem: I don't consider just getting a progamer license to cut it in terms of being a 'pro gamer', because you don't make a living, you just earn board. Whereas on the other side of the argument, progamer is just progamer, and the bar being used for that is pretty low. Guess I'm done, this is probably more of a misunderstanding than anything else.
On December 29 2009 08:22 Scooge wrote: Korean racism is well known I thought. They treat others extremely badly, especially those they consider lower than them like poorer Asian countries, blacks, etc.. Ret should be thankful he's at least white. Koreans, because of their history with America via the Korean war, and their respect for Anglo / European achievements, treat whites much, much better than other foreigners. With all this widely known, any foreigner who moves to Korea and is somehow shocked only has themself to blame.
I don't really like to put it that way - when you put it that way, it sounds racist itself. It has nothing to do with koreans really. It's the culture, and it's the same in Japan and (I think) China. Nothing wrong with disliking that aspect of these cultures, there are things to dislike about any culture (for example materialism and individuality in american culture).
lol man you guys act like racism is some taboo that only happens in Korea. That shit is everywhere... you can find racism in the grocery store up the street in the US.
On December 29 2009 08:22 Scooge wrote: Korean racism is well known I thought. They treat others extremely badly, especially those they consider lower than them like poorer Asian countries, blacks, etc.. Ret should be thankful he's at least white. Koreans, because of their history with America via the Korean war, and their respect for Anglo / European achievements, treat whites much, much better than other foreigners. With all this widely known, any foreigner who moves to Korea and is somehow shocked only has themself to blame.
I don't really like to put it that way - when you put it that way, it sounds racist itself. It has nothing to do with koreans really. It's the culture, and it's the same in Japan and (I think) China. Nothing wrong with disliking that aspect of these cultures, there are things to dislike about any culture (for example materialism and individuality in american culture).
China or Japan being racist doesn't excuse Korea. I'm not saying EVERY single Korean is racist. I thought it was implied that we're speaking in general. The country as a whole treats foreigners, especially those not white, extremely badly. In the US or other western countries, there's a shame in being racist. People know it's wrong, and yes, sometimes they still do it. It's not like that in Korea. Koreans are so ethnocentric they have no problem treating a migrant worker from Bangladesh like he's dirt or abusing an Indian employee. They see nothing wrong in that. Again, in general.
Look at it this way: I'm a C level player, but I would be B+ if I was such a nerdy, stupid slave as all you B+ players! That's a ridiculous argument, and most people would laugh at me for being such a pathetic newb.
But when B+/A- players say it about competing in a community of Olympic level players, it's sage-like and poignant. Should be considered bullshit instead.
Edit: Also, being French or Dutch or some other European country doesn't make you a part of a race. Unless you're ascribing by the old Nazi idea of the "German" race. Koreans are xenophobic you say? I'm in a huge Korean clan on Asia server, and I've met many friends. Some dislike Americans, most are interested in Americans, some are fascinated with Americans. Now I would say that the people who dislike Americans are either being presumptuous and dont understand America, or they are so Asian/selfless/mystic that they genuinely dislike America. Then there's the people who are interested, because they are intelligent and curious people. Then there's the great ones who understand what makes (or maybe I should say, made) America great and wish they could be a part of it.
Now if you look at Europe, it has nothing to offer any of these three groups:
The Asian/selfless/mystic ones will flat out hate Europeans, because Europeans are usually some form of pluralist and/or skeptic, with some occasional religious/mysitic nonsense thrown in.
The middle group might be somewhat friendly to Europeans--until the European's pluralism and skepticism start to show. At this point, most young, thoughtful Koreans, raised either on the notions of hard work, loyalty to country or duty to family, or all of the above, will be repulsed by the mindless pluralism of a typical European youth. The thoughtful Korean will consider the relevance of an American way of life, albeit critically; but, no matter how patient, he will ultimately feel too disconnected from a typical European.
The third group will have a few laughs at the European, and then ultimately just ignore him. But the first two groups (especially the second) are far more common than this type.
Of course, any of these things can apply to any country. Many Americans are very European in their mindset, although usually with traces of the American sense of individuality and hard-work. I'm sure there are Africans who love Asian culture, American culture, Italian culture, Russian culture, etc. But I'm speaking on average, about the predominant trends.
It's not a matter of racism, because that term is completely inapplicable. Xenophobia is more of a Chinese or Eastern European trait, and I've never seen it out of Koreans. It's more selective than that, it's about ideas. This whole problem is about ideas. Ret, Nony, etc, wanted to have their cake and eat it too, they had different notions of how to succeed at SC, but wanted the Koreans (the one's with something to offer, mind you) to adjust to them. But that doesn't work. You can't be your partying, pretentious, casual self, and get all the benefits of dealing with someone who expects you to live up to standards through disciplined means.
Koreans are nationalists and proud of their country, they haven't forgotten their periods of colonisation and war. They're not specifically "racist", but uneducated and xenophobic. They believe in the purity of their blood and the racial discrimination is not mentionned in their legislation.
The protection of their foreign workers is close to unexistant, not to mention that you have to look like a corean to do your military service, there is a specific racist law.
On December 29 2009 08:46 Scooge wrote: I'm not saving EVERY SINGLE KOREAN is racist.
lol it's easy to mistakenly read the sentence starting from the capitalized words.
I was like "Whoa, EVERY SINGLE KOREAN is racist?" Then I doubled back and read "I'm not saying".
Power of half-assed first glances.
Anyways, I don't expect Korea will be as foreigner friendly as other developed countries, until literally a hundred years from now, when globalization would force everyone to adapt accordingly.
Actually, it might get worse, if competition of dwindling resources fuel additional nationalism.
Back on topic, I hope Ret succeeds on his third try. He beat some of these winners before, so he definitely has the skill to win courage.
On December 29 2009 04:01 ret wrote: I absolutely hate the fact that I 'failed' however, and it just hurts more to see players worse than you do well. Maybe I should try one more time D:
On December 29 2009 02:59 ghostWriter wrote: Really Chill? You agree with that moron? It might be hard to make a name for yourself in progaming, but there is no way that progaming is even close to being as competitive as medicine is.
Ok, I really hope you're not mentally deficient, otherwise it's pointless to continue. Drop-out rate at medical schools is less than 10%, actually 10% was a major concern somewhere so it's usually even lower (you can google it). And then compare it to hordes of koreans who try to become progamers but very few of them succeed.
Right except that medical schools weed out candidates based on whether or not they think that people will succeed. They also go out of their way to make sure that the people who want to go to medical school actually have a passion for it. This less than 10% comes from the people who claimed to have a passion for medicine AND showed that they have the ability to learn and keep up with the material during their college years. The 10% would be comparing the number of people who dropped out of medical school with the number of people who were on A team but didn't have many televised games yet and decided to quit playing or something like that.
It's not even a parallel situation. The right one would be comparing the hordes of Koreans who try to become progamers to the hordes of students that try to get into medical school but don't succeed (most people drop the premed program of study because they can't even handle the college courses, never mind the classes that they would take in medical school), mostly because of low grades or a low test score.
Perhaps you could make the argument that the two things are different skill sets and thus cannot be compared a la apples to oranges, but what you're claiming now is just wrong.
Ie. I know several friends who are in med school now who scored over 90 percentile on their MCATs and LOVE SC and play it religiously yet are absolutely horrendous.
And btw, getting into a top tier MFA Creative Writing program is literally 10x harder than getting into a top tier medical school by the acceptance/rejection ratio.
acceptance/rejection ratio isn't the whole story, since you have to see what kinds of students are applying. And most people that know for a fact that they won't be accepted don't bother applying.
Your little anecdote proves nothing, nor does your affirmative statement. Who cares if they play sc religiously? Playing something for fun is vastly different from playing something as your job, which you get paid for.
So you think being a doctor is easier than getting on the New York Times Bestseller list with an original work of fiction?
You are an idiot. I held myself back when I read your posts in "post a picture of you and your girlfriend thread" but your brain must be made out of brick. You decide that you thoroughly know the medical field and blindly state that a writing program is ten times harder. What the fuck? That claim has no basis whatsoever, especially considering that acceptance/rejection ratio does not directly relate to how "hard" it is to get in there. Your little story about your friends does not add to your argument either. ghostwriter's right. The comparison should be the horde of Koreans trying to become progamers to high school/college students who aspire to be doctors, but change to alternative career because they cannot compete with other pre-med students in science classes.
And then you compare being a doctor to the highest success one can achieve as a writer. Lol. How about something like, finding a cure to a new disease to getting on the bestseller list?
"I am not going to post pictures of me and my girlfriend because I actually *respect* her and don't want internet nerds fapping to her pics." Lol.
you're not a big reader are you..? Being on the New York Times bestseller list doesn't mean that you've been succesful as a writer. It means that you're succesful as a buisinessman/woman. Or that you're already famous or writing about someone who's famous.. I'm extremely off-topic here, but I just hate that cynisism enshrined in common sense.
Well, because you are. And it's pathetic. So some of us "kids" (if I'm a kid, you must be 60 years old or something) thought it a good idea to say so. Koreans don't like Ret. Wah wah racists. That's not complaining of course. That's just plain old common sense!
Lets fuckin face it people; Korea is, by western standards, pretty damn racist. Call it culture, call it xenophobia, but thats the bottom line. No matter how politically correct you want to be, how many analogies you want to use, or how carefully designed your euphemisms are, koreans are racists. Im not saying that racism is absent in the US/Euro zone. it's just that some countries are more racists than others. There is a reason why the observed frequency of football fans throwing bananas to black players is higher in say, Italy and Spain, than in Britain or France. Everything is relative. Everyone is equal but some are more equal than others. Every country is equally racist but some are more racist than others.
There are 2 types of racism, i'd say. Number 1 is just outright racism where you yell slurs at indonesian/pakistani/ppl from poor asian countries/blacks..etc.. in a fucking bus downtown Seoul NYTimes Article.
Number 2 is more applicable at Americans/whites/caucasians..etc.. while not exactly outright racism, i'd call it xenophobia. defined as "a dislike and/or fear of that which is unknown or different from oneself." Not as bad as number 1, but still clearly not an appropriate way to treat people.
In Ret's case, i don't know if xenophobia was a a determinant factor, but a lot of things just don't fucking make sense.
1. We're in 2009. Sc has been released 12 years ago. Progaming has been going on for a while. A few foreigners tried to become pros and with the exception of Idra (im excluding Grrrr..Elky..etc..because their era was way too early) they all went home because the working conditions were not adequate. Artosis is the most knowledgeable white dude in Korea when it comes to progaming AND he has mad connections AND he is pretty much the liaison between aspiring foreign pros and pro-teams. Now, is it fair to say that some major miscommunication occurred when Ret was negotiating with Estro to go to Korea? If he KNEW that his freaking teammates would be sure to totally ignore him and decline to play even just a few games with him, would he have accepted to go and accept the moronic fact; bah i guess im just gonna play iCCup. no big deal. (sorry to burst anyone's bubble but iccup-only type of training is lightyears away from pro-training). If NOT playing a foreign teammate is proper etiquette, why didn't guys like Artosis alert Ret before moving to Korea? Artosis knows exactly what happened to Nony and Draco..etc. Miscommunication or is Estro being suddenly xenophobic?
2. Ignoring this Dutch dude who lives in your Pro-House?! wtf. Progamers play an absurd amount of hours each day. From this, an intelligent person will conclude that an absurd amount of games is being played between each progamer. Now, pro-training tells us that after each games, it's always better if you go over your replays and you discuss strategy. Great. Does that mean that Ret HAS to be ignored since he can't participate in complex strategic discussions after each games? How about this, lets say Korean Progamer X plays 50 games a day. Is it reasonable for the Estro manager to ask him to play 48 games strictly against korean opponents and during the course of the day, to force him to play vs some dude from Holland since he's part of the team too. That way, this Korean Progamer X will be able to discuss strategy and go over replays 48 times. That's a 96% ratio. 4% of the time, he won't be able to discuss strategy because his english is too limited and the dude from Holland doesn't speak korean. But who cares since he's chobo anyways because he's not korean so it's pointless to discuss strategy with him. But since the same 2 games are expected from every team member, Ret will find himself playing 2 games times whatever the number of pro-koreans living in the house is. Which in a perfect world would add up to like 30 games a day. The rest of the time, he still has iCCup and he can fill in holes by analyzing replays. That's much closer to a real pro-training.
3. Are strategic discussions between Ret and coaches/managers/players etc.. totally fucking impossible? Give me a break. Not all korean progamers are totally unable to speak english. Even if it'll never be as deep as a fluent vs fluent strategic analysis, you can still work your way around it and and at least put a very minimal effort to have some sort of basic interaction. i mean, fucking units names are the same in both languages, a tank is a fuckin tank. a zergling is a fucking zerlings. Just say things; Jos! your timing push is tooooo late ..tooo late. or...vs Mech...more zerglings... your 3rd expo....tooooo soon... your defilers...tooo late..., always killllll reaver first!! etc... by getting used to it, both parties will get better at it. Discussions will be basic at first..but then both parties will get to know each other, Ret will pick up a few korean words along the way, and koreans should at least feel a bit excited since they can practice some english (hey its only the international lingua franca..so who cares) if you guys think that this can't be done, you should download the Mondragon vs Sea[Shield] replay on fighting spirit where Mondragon, Ret ...and some other foreigners talk with Sea Shield about football(soccer). again..im NOT saying every Estro member is as cool..as skilled, as handsome, as friendly..and as good in english as SeaShield..but it gives you an indication of what type of conversations are possible.
i dont know if he took his decision yet but honestly, i hope Ret stays for at least some time to really sort things out and to really decide if his dream is humanely possible or not. The ONLY way to do that is to first and foremost to TALK TO HWANNI, THE ESTRO MANAGER (that he himself described as "really nice guy"), AND TO EXPLAIN HIM HIS SITUATION AND HOW PLAYING ICCUP-ONLY IS ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT. and then to practice his fucking ass off. If he can survive in the most intensely competitive gaming circuit in the history of the universe, he'll be a monster when he comes back to Holland to pursue whatever endeavors he feels like. Everything else will feel like a piece of cake.
ive always wondered about racism in asia since to my understanding its far more homogenous at least in the sense of being "asian" (obviously there are ethnic groups and people from different countries etc) than a lot of western countries. I mean theres obviously the whitebread hillbillies in the USA and ull find stuff like that anywhere but i rarely see non asian people in asia at least on television as opposed to having pretty much everyone here in the US. Id kind of expect them to be more racist etc ;p Then again there are western movies and stuff so maybe youd think that would affect them too!
On December 29 2009 09:00 Attritive wrote: Xenophobia is more of a Chinese or Eastern European trait, and I've never seen it out of Koreans. It's more selective than that, it's about ideas.
Okay, thanks for your enlightening Asia-Server-Korean-Clan knowledge.
I really love how almost every time Rek posts, there is a flood of sub 50 post posters coming on here to throw their worthless 2 cents in or to flame him. Interesting how he brings out the best :D
As a Korean-American who has never been to Korea, who has been born in America, who considers himself to be an American patriot, but who has been born to traditionally South Korean parents and is fully aware of the culture differences let me say:
1. YES, Koreans are racist. 2. YES, Americans are racist. 3. Are Koreans more racist than Americans? That, obviously cannot be determined. 4. YES, Koreans are afraid of people who are different. 5. YES, Americans are afraid of people who are different.
My point is, racism does exist. Racism exists EVERYWHERE. In the workplace, on the gaming scene. Even prostitutes are racist. Poker players are racist.
If ret experienced racism in Korea, that's very unfortunate. But don't shit on KOREA for it. Shit on RACISM. Because God knows, as a Korean, when I went down to the South, I was APPALLED to experience racism by my FELLOW PEOPLE, in the NAME OF THE COUNTRY I DEARLY LOVE.
Ultimately, as people and cultures are unique, so is racism. Racism by Koreans will not be the same by racism by Americans.
I must admit, I am a racist as well, at times. But the number of "stereotyping" posts and blogs on this site leads me to believe that many of you guys are racist too.
Too bad. But to those who this applies to, don't sit on your high horse, saying how Korea is bullshit because Koreans are racist--how could they do that to ret omg? If a Korean went to the Netherlands to work in a HIGHLY competitive atmosphere and asked for some bullshit, or did something stupid, then he would be ostracized in a second. I promise you.
ret what you should do is stay in korea for another month or two, just practice 12+ hours a day on iccup, and try courage a couple more times. like others have pointed out a lot of people who win courage have had many many attempts at it. I think you should try a couple more times
On December 29 2009 10:45 shotz wrote: As a Korean-American who has never been to Korea, who has been born in America, who considers himself to be an American patriot, but who has been born to traditionally South Korean parents and is fully aware of the culture differences let me say:
1. YES, Koreans are racist. 2. YES, Americans are racist. 3. Are Koreans more racist than Americans? That, obviously cannot be determined. 4. YES, Koreans are afraid of people who are different. 5. YES, Americans are afraid of people who are different.
My point is, racism does exist. Racism exists EVERYWHERE. In the workplace, on the gaming scene. Even prostitutes are racist. Poker players are racist.
If ret experienced racism in Korea, that's very unfortunate. But don't shit on KOREA for it. Shit on RACISM. Because God knows, as a Korean, when I went down to the South, I was APPALLED to experience racism by my FELLOW PEOPLE, in the NAME OF THE COUNTRY I DEARLY LOVE.
Ultimately, as people and cultures are unique, so is racism. Racism by Koreans will not be the same by racism by Americans.
I must admit, I am a racist as well, at times. But the number of "stereotyping" posts and blogs on this site leads me to believe that many of you guys are racist too.
Too bad. But to those who this applies to, don't sit on your high horse, saying how Korea is bullshit because Koreans are racist--how could they do that to ret omg? If a Korean went to the Netherlands to work in a HIGHLY competitive atmosphere and asked for some bullshit, or did something stupid, then he would be ostracized in a second. I promise you.
Well im relieved that we now have a firm grasp on the obvious.
On December 29 2009 02:59 ghostWriter wrote: Really Chill? You agree with that moron? It might be hard to make a name for yourself in progaming, but there is no way that progaming is even close to being as competitive as medicine is.
Ok, I really hope you're not mentally deficient, otherwise it's pointless to continue. Drop-out rate at medical schools is less than 10%, actually 10% was a major concern somewhere so it's usually even lower (you can google it). And then compare it to hordes of koreans who try to become progamers but very few of them succeed.
Right except that medical schools weed out candidates based on whether or not they think that people will succeed. They also go out of their way to make sure that the people who want to go to medical school actually have a passion for it. This less than 10% comes from the people who claimed to have a passion for medicine AND showed that they have the ability to learn and keep up with the material during their college years. The 10% would be comparing the number of people who dropped out of medical school with the number of people who were on A team but didn't have many televised games yet and decided to quit playing or something like that.
It's not even a parallel situation. The right one would be comparing the hordes of Koreans who try to become progamers to the hordes of students that try to get into medical school but don't succeed (most people drop the premed program of study because they can't even handle the college courses, never mind the classes that they would take in medical school), mostly because of low grades or a low test score.
Perhaps you could make the argument that the two things are different skill sets and thus cannot be compared a la apples to oranges, but what you're claiming now is just wrong.
Ie. I know several friends who are in med school now who scored over 90 percentile on their MCATs and LOVE SC and play it religiously yet are absolutely horrendous.
And btw, getting into a top tier MFA Creative Writing program is literally 10x harder than getting into a top tier medical school by the acceptance/rejection ratio.
acceptance/rejection ratio isn't the whole story, since you have to see what kinds of students are applying. And most people that know for a fact that they won't be accepted don't bother applying.
Your little anecdote proves nothing, nor does your affirmative statement. Who cares if they play sc religiously? Playing something for fun is vastly different from playing something as your job, which you get paid for.
So you think being a doctor is easier than getting on the New York Times Bestseller list with an original work of fiction?
You are an idiot. I held myself back when I read your posts in "post a picture of you and your girlfriend thread" but your brain must be made out of brick. You decide that you thoroughly know the medical field and blindly state that a writing program is ten times harder. What the fuck? That claim has no basis whatsoever, especially considering that acceptance/rejection ratio does not directly relate to how "hard" it is to get in there. Your little story about your friends does not add to your argument either. ghostwriter's right. The comparison should be the horde of Koreans trying to become progamers to high school/college students who aspire to be doctors, but change to alternative career because they cannot compete with other pre-med students in science classes.
And then you compare being a doctor to the highest success one can achieve as a writer. Lol. How about something like, finding a cure to a new disease to getting on the bestseller list?
"I am not going to post pictures of me and my girlfriend because I actually *respect* her and don't want internet nerds fapping to her pics." Lol.
you're not a big reader are you..? Being on the New York Times bestseller list doesn't mean that you've been succesful as a writer. It means that you're succesful as a buisinessman/woman. Or that you're already famous or writing about someone who's famous.. I'm extremely off-topic here, but I just hate that cynisism enshrined in common sense.
You are probably right but that doesn't change much
On December 29 2009 06:27 phosphorylation wrote: rekrul, you cannot deny a portion of female Korean population is retardedly favorable to big white males and its pretty clear from all your flaunts that you took good advantage of it
if you go to a foreign country (especially a homogeneous one like korea), you should make a herculian effort to learn the language and fit into the society..otherwise, they have all the reason to not incorporate you into their own group...but from my experience, some koreans try to do that anyway
overall, my point is that: you haven't said anything flat-out wrong (except for the koreans being insnaely xenophobic), but i have the problem with the way you say it as if it deserves your contempt and scorn, when it's only reasonalbe what the koreans (and the teams) expect and, on a slightly different note, korea has clearly treated you better than you make it out to be on your post
i was never talking about myself ever, koreans treat me EXTREMELY well...i am fluent in their language and understand their culture...ive never met a korean who didn't like me i think lol.
the part about being treated differently due to weight was merely i feel a slight difference than before, but its still totally fine
this post was only directed at progaming teams and ur avg sc nerd dreaming to join one
i was not knocking on koreans at all as all cultures in the world have their ups and downs.
fair enough but that still does not merit you saying stuff like:
"Koreans are fucking xenophobic as fuck. They are not happy go lucky to foreigners at all (unless they speak korean or are drinking with them lol!).
Koreans are also superficial as hell. They are probably the most judgemental culture I've ever seen. They care about the way you look. They care about the way you carry yourself."
u should strive to be more responsible (or just be more specific) with your word choice if you want to rag on the situation, do so but dont make offensive, blanket statements about koreans while doing so
Yeah racism exists everywhere, but come on. Obviously racism exists in America, and probably more than we realize due to the more subversive kinds of racism (ie. simply getting passed up for a promotion). At the same time this is a comparison of one of the most diverse countries to one of the most homogenous countries. I don't think it matters a bit though - even if you assume every single person in the estro house is completely non-racist - the situation would still suck. Language barriers, etc.
On December 29 2009 09:06 TeWy wrote: Koreans are nationalists and proud of their country, they haven't forgotten their periods of colonisation and war. They're not specifically "racist", but uneducated and xenophobic. They believe in the purity of their blood and the racial discrimination is not mentionned in their legislation.
The protection of their foreign workers is close to unexistant, not to mention that you have to look like a corean to do your military service, there is a specific racist law.
Thanks for calling Koreans uneducated. Xenophobic, well keep in mind China has been a threat to annex them for over a thousand years. A complete open doors policy to China would have been a great idea; ask how the Tibetans like the current wave of chinese immigrants.
---
And I think idra winning foreigner competitions and his promises to buy dinner for his teammates won him some solidarity within the CJ B team.
I know this isn't the point that many of you are trying to argue, but if you think that being a doctor is easy, then you lack perspective.
What a doctor does actually makes a difference in the world. That responsibility alone is more than most individuals are able to cope with. If Starcraft pro-gaming were to disappear, it wouldn't change my life even one iota.
It's not just effort. It's the ability to coherently integrate years of knowledge and experience into a working diagnosis. The ability to cope under pressure and to deal with suffering, failure and ethics. Interacting with a patient is FAR more complex than many of you will appreciate, and it takes place in a dynamic almost none of you will be privileged to understand.
The diminishing respect for doctors is disappointing, and is somewhat paralleled by a similar appreciation for the work of the police. It's driven by a trend of ego-centric self imbued sense of right and worth, and is driven by a lack of empathy and values.
I understand that becoming a top-tier pro-gamer is similar to reaching the pinnacle in any sport. However I doubt the sacrifice a person makes as doctor should ever be comparable to former.
[on-topic]
Give up Ret. I don't know (you or) what you hope to achieve, but I doubt you'll have much success in Korea with Brood War. A matter of too little, too late, and wrong place. You see that now. Not that I wanted to see you fail; I'd have loved to see you on television... but I think there's nothing for you to realistically gain.
everone seems to agree with your bandwagoning post, but i cant find it again to quote it and im not gonna search, but here's your problem.
3 elements to providing a firm opinion/argument, yours being that estro sucks etc etc
ethos pathos logos
one being more important than the other two depending on the crowd (women, internet nerds, etc) so in this case, Rekrul has an infinitely more established ethos than you do, hence the discussion and non closed thread.
The most funny part is that after 24 pages (20 full of bullshit) we get a post from the guy who is being talked on the last 20 pages and nobody gives a shit and keep complaining about xenofobic stuff.
Good luck ret on whatever you choooses to do from your life. Next courage is yours. you better do it or get back and wait for sc2.
also i'm not so sure i agree that blunt posts = intelligent ones as so many ppl seem to think
but i do appreciate one persons insight on korean gaming. though it is an incredibly biased one, i'd like to get a girl's take on it (someone positive who enjoys skittles and pink drinks) and see where the two opinion overlap.
On December 29 2009 06:27 phosphorylation wrote: rekrul, you cannot deny a portion of female Korean population is retardedly favorable to big white males and its pretty clear from all your flaunts that you took good advantage of it
if you go to a foreign country (especially a homogeneous one like korea), you should make a herculian effort to learn the language and fit into the society..otherwise, they have all the reason to not incorporate you into their own group...but from my experience, some koreans try to do that anyway
overall, my point is that: you haven't said anything flat-out wrong (except for the koreans being insnaely xenophobic), but i have the problem with the way you say it as if it deserves your contempt and scorn, when it's only reasonalbe what the koreans (and the teams) expect and, on a slightly different note, korea has clearly treated you better than you make it out to be on your post
i was never talking about myself ever, koreans treat me EXTREMELY well...i am fluent in their language and understand their culture...ive never met a korean who didn't like me i think lol.
the part about being treated differently due to weight was merely i feel a slight difference than before, but its still totally fine
this post was only directed at progaming teams and ur avg sc nerd dreaming to join one
i was not knocking on koreans at all as all cultures in the world have their ups and downs.
fair enough but that still does not merit you saying stuff like:
"Koreans are fucking xenophobic as fuck. They are not happy go lucky to foreigners at all (unless they speak korean or are drinking with them lol!).
Koreans are also superficial as hell. They are probably the most judgemental culture I've ever seen. They care about the way you look. They care about the way you carry yourself."
u should strive to be more responsible (or just be more specific) with your word choice if you want to rag on the situation, do so but dont make offensive, blanket statements about koreans while doing so
But its true. And he wasn't talking all formal then went and suddenly made offenses at just the korean style of thinking. He was like that throughout the post, meaning his choice of diction wasn't really aimed at the koreans style of thinking.
But then, its actually normal for koreans to act like that.
We all have had little gay dreams of being pro gamers. I'm not surprised we cheer for those foreigners who decide to go to Korea because it's something that some of us wish. I know I was a little sad that Nony left because I truly believed that he could make it.
I think it's time that we just accept that unless were willing to learn a new language and conform to the korean society,we will not make it. Starcraft is one of our favorite pastimes and it should remain like that for the most of us.
100% agree. No offense to ret , but going to korea at the age of 24, [ which is hella old for a progamer ] and not playing ZvZ , you can't really expect to do well. In the eyes of a progaming house, you are taking the place of someone who could be/do much much better. And especially after losing 2 courage tournaments in the first round, doesn't help you much, either. And of course the language barrier is a huge issue as well. Oh well, GL ANYWAY.
I stay my opinion that Ret is his own man. If he has chased his dream this far, he deserves to give himself one more shot at it. However, not to be discouraging, I also agree that there is little to gain from becoming a broodwar progamer at this point. SC2 may change everything, if Blizzard really puts effort into making it global. We'll see.
On December 29 2009 12:04 dukethegold wrote: Out of curiosity, is Idra fluent with Korean? O.o
No, I remember when about a month ago Idra tweeted that he was JUST starting to take lessons in korean. I really thing ret should just try one more courage, Artosis seems like a cool guy and he shouldn't mind ret staying for another month. That's what friends are for.
I wouldn't want to be part of the Korean Esports community, even if I were the most gosu Starcraft player in the entire world. All you have to do is watch an interview with the top players(Jaedong/Stork) to find that these players have very little self esteem. I just want to slap Stork's humble face sometimes, and yell "your a fucking star god damnit!!".
On December 29 2009 09:06 TeWy wrote: Koreans are nationalists and proud of their country, they haven't forgotten their periods of colonisation and war. They're not specifically "racist", but uneducated and xenophobic. They believe in the purity of their blood and the racial discrimination is not mentionned in their legislation.
The protection of their foreign workers is close to unexistant, not to mention that you have to look like a corean to do your military service, there is a specific racist law.
Thanks for calling Koreans uneducated. Xenophobic, well keep in mind China has been a threat to annex them for over a thousand years. A complete open doors policy to China would have been a great idea; ask how the Tibetans like the current wave of chinese immigrants.
---
And I think idra winning foreigner competitions and his promises to buy dinner for his teammates won him some solidarity within the CJ B team.
Not a threat to annex them, Korea was actually a tribute nation to China for a good amount of time as well as constantly the rope where China and Japan played tug of war with for a good two hundred years. And of course now, it's a song and dance between the US and China. I don't envy Korea's state right now nor blame their mindset.
I really wish the best for ret - I hope he doesnt quit just work hard until starcraft2 and than you'll have an equal chance to beat the korean players.
and somethings the topic poster has said are quite true just from what ive seen koreans only stick to there own people, however they are polite nice people and i'm sure if ret gets better they wont shun him.
On December 29 2009 06:27 phosphorylation wrote: rekrul, you cannot deny a portion of female Korean population is retardedly favorable to big white males and its pretty clear from all your flaunts that you took good advantage of it
if you go to a foreign country (especially a homogeneous one like korea), you should make a herculian effort to learn the language and fit into the society..otherwise, they have all the reason to not incorporate you into their own group...but from my experience, some koreans try to do that anyway
overall, my point is that: you haven't said anything flat-out wrong (except for the koreans being insnaely xenophobic), but i have the problem with the way you say it as if it deserves your contempt and scorn, when it's only reasonalbe what the koreans (and the teams) expect and, on a slightly different note, korea has clearly treated you better than you make it out to be on your post
i was never talking about myself ever, koreans treat me EXTREMELY well...i am fluent in their language and understand their culture...ive never met a korean who didn't like me i think lol.
the part about being treated differently due to weight was merely i feel a slight difference than before, but its still totally fine
this post was only directed at progaming teams and ur avg sc nerd dreaming to join one
i was not knocking on koreans at all as all cultures in the world have their ups and downs.
fair enough but that still does not merit you saying stuff like:
"Koreans are fucking xenophobic as fuck. They are not happy go lucky to foreigners at all (unless they speak korean or are drinking with them lol!).
Koreans are also superficial as hell. They are probably the most judgemental culture I've ever seen. They care about the way you look. They care about the way you carry yourself."
u should strive to be more responsible (or just be more specific) with your word choice if you want to rag on the situation, do so but dont make offensive, blanket statements about koreans while doing so
"but dont make offensive, blanket statements about koreans while doing so" do you honestly believe that there are people on this forum that are going to take his statement as pure fact?
stop assuming that no one can use their fucking brains
god i hate so much of this politically correct bullshit that assumes the lowest common denominator
Most likely the best Ret can accomplish is what Idra has now: winning foreigner tournaments. Even that is not worth the amount of time of effort putting in. I doubt Idra will ever be able to compete with A-team Koreans.
I think Ret and even Idra should just give it up and move on to do something better with their lives. Best of luck nonetheless.
On December 29 2009 11:13 FirstProbe wrote: Give up Ret. I don't know (you or) what you hope to achieve, but I doubt you'll have much success in Korea with Brood War. A matter of too little, too late, and wrong place. You see that now. Not that I wanted to see you fail; I'd have loved to see you on television... but I think there's nothing for you to realistically gain.
Why would you say something like that? Are you a friend of Ret? His father perhaps? If not, you should just shut up or at least not dress up your opinion as if it's supposed to be directed at Ret. I don't think he's waiting for randomdouche2250's tough love right now.
On December 29 2009 12:45 iloveHieu wrote: Most likely the best Ret can accomplish is what Idra has now: winning foreigner tournaments. Even that is not worth the amount of time of effort putting in. I doubt Idra will ever be able to compete with A-team Koreans.
I think Ret and even Idra should just give it up and move on to do something better with their lives. Best of luck nonetheless.
If Idra is top 4 B team on CJ atm, I think he can eventually make the A team as long as he keeps improving. CJ is known for building very talented players.
Also I would like to mention that most progamers probably take at least 2 or so years to make it to the A team after joining, maybe even more.
I'd personally love to hear from Idra himself about what he thinks his chances are of breaking into the A squad in the next year or so. How comfortable he is with his matchups and all that. I doubt he can even talk about stuff like that, but a little B team info/lifestyle would be pretty tight.
On December 29 2009 06:27 phosphorylation wrote: rekrul, you cannot deny a portion of female Korean population is retardedly favorable to big white males and its pretty clear from all your flaunts that you took good advantage of it
if you go to a foreign country (especially a homogeneous one like korea), you should make a herculian effort to learn the language and fit into the society..otherwise, they have all the reason to not incorporate you into their own group...but from my experience, some koreans try to do that anyway
overall, my point is that: you haven't said anything flat-out wrong (except for the koreans being insnaely xenophobic), but i have the problem with the way you say it as if it deserves your contempt and scorn, when it's only reasonalbe what the koreans (and the teams) expect and, on a slightly different note, korea has clearly treated you better than you make it out to be on your post
i was never talking about myself ever, koreans treat me EXTREMELY well...i am fluent in their language and understand their culture...ive never met a korean who didn't like me i think lol.
the part about being treated differently due to weight was merely i feel a slight difference than before, but its still totally fine
this post was only directed at progaming teams and ur avg sc nerd dreaming to join one
i was not knocking on koreans at all as all cultures in the world have their ups and downs.
fair enough but that still does not merit you saying stuff like:
"Koreans are fucking xenophobic as fuck. They are not happy go lucky to foreigners at all (unless they speak korean or are drinking with them lol!).
Koreans are also superficial as hell. They are probably the most judgemental culture I've ever seen. They care about the way you look. They care about the way you carry yourself."
u should strive to be more responsible (or just be more specific) with your word choice if you want to rag on the situation, do so but dont make offensive, blanket statements about koreans while doing so
"but dont make offensive, blanket statements about koreans while doing so" do you honestly believe that there are people on this forum that are going to take his statement as pure fact?
stop assuming that no one can use their fucking brains
god i hate so much of this politically correct bullshit that assumes the lowest common denominator
lol i am like the least politically correct person you might meet judging from the comments from this thread, a lot of people are agreeing with his assessment of koreans
i know estro has this thing where they have inner b team tournaments where they promote the best b player to the a team but i dunno if other teams do this(or how their promotion system works)
On December 29 2009 12:45 iloveHieu wrote: Most likely the best Ret can accomplish is what Idra has now: winning foreigner tournaments. Even that is not worth the amount of time of effort putting in. I doubt Idra will ever be able to compete with A-team Koreans.
I think Ret and even Idra should just give it up and move on to do something better with their lives. Best of luck nonetheless.
If Idra is top 4 B team on CJ atm, I think he can eventually make the A team as long as he keeps improving. CJ is known for building very talented players.
Also I would like to mention that most progamers probably take at least 2 or so years to make it to the A team after joining, maybe even more.
Hydra, and Orion were also played. Snow got sent out once as well in the PL as cannon folder against Bisu. I personally would like to know Idra's win rate against other B-teamers. Although I also know he will never reveal it unless it is over 60%...
I am not sure how this is related to Ret's problem.
On December 29 2009 06:27 phosphorylation wrote: rekrul, you cannot deny a portion of female Korean population is retardedly favorable to big white males and its pretty clear from all your flaunts that you took good advantage of it
if you go to a foreign country (especially a homogeneous one like korea), you should make a herculian effort to learn the language and fit into the society..otherwise, they have all the reason to not incorporate you into their own group...but from my experience, some koreans try to do that anyway
overall, my point is that: you haven't said anything flat-out wrong (except for the koreans being insnaely xenophobic), but i have the problem with the way you say it as if it deserves your contempt and scorn, when it's only reasonalbe what the koreans (and the teams) expect and, on a slightly different note, korea has clearly treated you better than you make it out to be on your post
i was never talking about myself ever, koreans treat me EXTREMELY well...i am fluent in their language and understand their culture...ive never met a korean who didn't like me i think lol.
the part about being treated differently due to weight was merely i feel a slight difference than before, but its still totally fine
this post was only directed at progaming teams and ur avg sc nerd dreaming to join one
i was not knocking on koreans at all as all cultures in the world have their ups and downs.
fair enough but that still does not merit you saying stuff like:
"Koreans are fucking xenophobic as fuck. They are not happy go lucky to foreigners at all (unless they speak korean or are drinking with them lol!).
Koreans are also superficial as hell. They are probably the most judgemental culture I've ever seen. They care about the way you look. They care about the way you carry yourself."
u should strive to be more responsible (or just be more specific) with your word choice if you want to rag on the situation, do so but dont make offensive, blanket statements about koreans while doing so
"but dont make offensive, blanket statements about koreans while doing so" do you honestly believe that there are people on this forum that are going to take his statement as pure fact?
stop assuming that no one can use their fucking brains
god i hate so much of this politically correct bullshit that assumes the lowest common denominator
lol i am like the least politically correct person you might meet judging from the comments from this thread, a lot of people are agreeing with his assessment of koreans
because a lot of people on TL are asian and understand how xenophobic asians can be from personal experience at the very least
On December 29 2009 13:31 dukethegold wrote: Hydra, and Orion were also played. Snow got sent out once as well in the PL as cannon folder against Bisu. I personally would like to know Idra's win rate against other B-teamers. Although I also know he will never reveal it unless it is over 60%...
I am not sure how this is related to Ret's problem.
Just trying to gauge the difference in skill levels between CJ A-team, B-team, Idra and ret.
KBK Offers Support to International Players - Hone @ 15:42 EST Players who registered for the KBK World Masters 2000 Tournament to be hosted on Battle.net received this email in their inbox this morning:
Dear Registrant:
Thank you very much for registering to participate in KBK's StarCraft Masters 2000.
We would like to inform all registrants of the new changes being implemented. In order to make it easier for overseas registrants to participate in the finals, KBK has decided to give out free round-trip airfares to all overseas participants that are among the top 32 players at the end of the preliminaries. In addition, accommodation and transportation will be provided at low-cost to all overseas participants while staying in Korea.
We however regret to inform everyone that a small commitment fee will be charged to all overseas participants. Only one (1) ID will be allocated to each registrant and the registration fee will be the equivalent of US$10.00 in your currency. This can be paid online by the use of credit cards through a secure server.
We apologize deeply for any inconvenience caused. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.
Best regards,
Aaron Gwak
================================== Aaron Yunseok Gwak Director / International Relations Knight Bridging Korea Co., Ltd.
I'm not sure why Ret is sad at all that he hasnt won courage yet. Expecting to win a tournament on your first try even if you are the best player there is silly. Clearly for most people it takes many time of trying to actually win it. If Ret wants to quit and give up of course thats his choice. I think that is a bit silly though. Who cares if you have to try 5-10 more times. If thats what it takes then thats the way it is. I'm sure he would rather have had it easy and win his first try. But sometimes life is hard and you have to put in more effort than you want to.
You gotta skate Ret. Put in the effort and keep trying to win courage. Its clear that if you try enough you will win it!!! make the effort.
If you are going to korea you should be ready to suffer. Ret has spent the last year living broodwar what is another 2-3 months to try and pass courage ....
Also is it possible to compete in the invid leagues without being on a pro team if you have your license?
Cool article Rek, I knew some of the things about progaming u mentioned, but I learned some games.
And I'm on the wagon of getting in SC1 right no for a foreigner is dumb. I don't see the Korean system being the most effective come SC2. Mechanics will not be as important as tactics as far as I can see of SC2.
Whatever you do tho Ret, keep ur head up, you chased a dream, there's nothing dishonorable about that.
The concept of a "sunk cost" is that the amount you've invested into a specific activity/business/whatever before the present day has no impact on whether you should continue that activity/business.
In other words even if you've (you as in a hypothetical person) invested time in going to Korea, giving up a job, a gf, whatever, it doesn't matter. You've got to weigh the difference between your prospects in Korea and the prospects in your home country.
I'm not advocating one course or another for Ret, because I don't know his situation in any kind of detail. However, the concept of a sunk cost is something that, in my opinion, he needs to keep in mind.
On December 29 2009 15:28 motbob wrote: The concept of a "sunk cost" is that the amount you've invested into a specific activity/business/whatever before the present day has no impact on whether you should continue that activity/business.
In other words even if you've (you as in a hypothetical person) invested time in going to Korea, giving up a job, a gf, whatever, it doesn't matter. You've got to weigh the difference between your prospects in Korea and the prospects in your home country.
I'm not advocating one course or another for Ret, because I don't know his situation in any kind of detail. However, the concept of a sunk cost is something that, in my opinion, he needs to keep in mind.
In the same regard, he would have to keep in mind the opportunity costs as well, which in this case may be a larger factor.
On December 29 2009 11:13 FirstProbe wrote: Give up Ret. I don't know (you or) what you hope to achieve, but I doubt you'll have much success in Korea with Brood War. A matter of too little, too late, and wrong place. You see that now. Not that I wanted to see you fail; I'd have loved to see you on television... but I think there's nothing for you to realistically gain.
Why would you say something like that? Are you a friend of Ret? His father perhaps? If not, you should just shut up or at least not dress up your opinion as if it's supposed to be directed at Ret. I don't think he's waiting for randomdouche2250's tough love right now.
Why don't you shut up.
I'm allowed to voice my opinion. He doesn't have to take it. I didn't actually put him down, so perhaps you shouldn't take offense (why you are in the first place is beyond me). He understands the reality better than both of us, and I'd be surprised if he didn't think of doing exactly that, irrespective of whether or not he read my comment.
the difference between korean racism and racism around the world is that korean culture doesn't condemn racism but accepts it and indirectly promotes it in korean law and in the minds of its citizens. that is why the new generations of koreans who live in korea still have the same mindset due to the institutional policies set in place.
it takes living in a different culture and location for koreans to realize that their subtle actions are wrong and racist. if they lived in korea, the small racist things they do wouldn't even be noticed.
Well, they do live near lots and lots of asians. :O Not that it makes it okay, but understable as they are completely surrounded by other asian countries.
On December 29 2009 04:23 InsideTheBox wrote: I want to preface what I post with this; I love progaming and it has been/ is still very enjoyable as a spectator. That being said, I don't understand why anyone does it, especially foreigners going to Korea for SC. Yes you can do what you enjoy as a profession, but there are so many negative aspects to it. You won't be a progamer when you're 35, let alone those that fizzle out at 23, and then you're in Korea having spent the majority of your time on what "normal" people spend to pursue their careers/ education. Another huge factor is that it's an incredibly difficult job to get and once you get it you're sitting at a computer playing a VIDEO GAMMMMME for 16 hrs a day learning nothing else even remotely relevant to life. In my opinion, the opportunity cost alone should be enough to deter any foreigner from even attempting to go to Korea, and rightfully so. Now I sure as hell don't want Idra/Ret/whoever else to listen to me if all they want to do in life is play professional SC, but I just don't see the rationale. Someone enlighten me if possible.
Actually this experience can very quickly teach you a lot about life - specifically who you are, what you want and need, and where you really want to go. Things that are important that you will miss by drifting through normal life like everyone does. You make these stark realizations in moments of change.
I don't disagree, but I feel most people can make these realizations without the aid of what rekrul so endearingly labels as "slavery." 80+ hrs a week at an i-bank making pitchbooks as an analyst would surely yield similar results without the requisite travel to Korea/ attempt to win courage/ etc opportunity cost of progaming.
Ok. So who are you to judge someone for what they do? You're saying what he is doing has no value and now you agree it has value? So he's following his dream and gaining value, I see zero problems here.
Value at what price? It seems to me like you're ignoring the other negative aspects or just prioritizing it to a lesser degree. As I said, people can do what they want to do and if they have a rationale behind it in their own personal utility model then that's fine. I just wanted some insight is all. Not trying to bash anyone.
On December 29 2009 10:16 intrudor wrote: Lets fuckin face it people; Korea is, by western standards, pretty damn racist. Call it culture, call it xenophobia, but thats the bottom line. No matter how politically correct you want to be, how many analogies you want to use, or how carefully designed your euphemisms are, koreans are racists. Im not saying that racism is absent in the US/Euro zone. it's just that some countries are more racists than others. There is a reason why the observed frequency of football fans throwing bananas to black players is higher in say, Italy and Spain, than in Britain or France. Everything is relative. Everyone is equal but some are more equal than others. Every country is equally racist but some are more racist than others.
There are 2 types of racism, i'd say. Number 1 is just outright racism where you yell slurs at indonesian/pakistani/ppl from poor asian countries/blacks..etc.. in a fucking bus downtown Seoul NYTimes Article.
Number 2 is more applicable at Americans/whites/caucasians..etc.. while not exactly outright racism, i'd call it xenophobia. defined as "a dislike and/or fear of that which is unknown or different from oneself." Not as bad as number 1, but still clearly not an appropriate way to treat people.
In Ret's case, i don't know if xenophobia was a a determinant factor, but a lot of things just don't fucking make sense.
1. We're in 2009. Sc has been released 12 years ago. Progaming has been going on for a while. A few foreigners tried to become pros and with the exception of Idra (im excluding Grrrr..Elky..etc..because their era was way too early) they all went home because the working conditions were not adequate. Artosis is the most knowledgeable white dude in Korea when it comes to progaming AND he has mad connections AND he is pretty much the liaison between aspiring foreign pros and pro-teams. Now, is it fair to say that some major miscommunication occurred when Ret was negotiating with Estro to go to Korea? If he KNEW that his freaking teammates would be sure to totally ignore him and decline to play even just a few games with him, would he have accepted to go and accept the moronic fact; bah i guess im just gonna play iCCup. no big deal. (sorry to burst anyone's bubble but iccup-only type of training is lightyears away from pro-training). If NOT playing a foreign teammate is proper etiquette, why didn't guys like Artosis alert Ret before moving to Korea? Artosis knows exactly what happened to Nony and Draco..etc. Miscommunication or is Estro being suddenly xenophobic?
2. Ignoring this Dutch dude who lives in your Pro-House?! wtf. Progamers play an absurd amount of hours each day. From this, an intelligent person will conclude that an absurd amount of games is being played between each progamer. Now, pro-training tells us that after each games, it's always better if you go over your replays and you discuss strategy. Great. Does that mean that Ret HAS to be ignored since he can't participate in complex strategic discussions after each games? How about this, lets say Korean Progamer X plays 50 games a day. Is it reasonable for the Estro manager to ask him to play 48 games strictly against korean opponents and during the course of the day, to force him to play vs some dude from Holland since he's part of the team too. That way, this Korean Progamer X will be able to discuss strategy and go over replays 48 times. That's a 96% ratio. 4% of the time, he won't be able to discuss strategy because his english is too limited and the dude from Holland doesn't speak korean. But who cares since he's chobo anyways because he's not korean so it's pointless to discuss strategy with him. But since the same 2 games are expected from every team member, Ret will find himself playing 2 games times whatever the number of pro-koreans living in the house is. Which in a perfect world would add up to like 30 games a day. The rest of the time, he still has iCCup and he can fill in holes by analyzing replays. That's much closer to a real pro-training.
3. Are strategic discussions between Ret and coaches/managers/players etc.. totally fucking impossible? Give me a break. Not all korean progamers are totally unable to speak english. Even if it'll never be as deep as a fluent vs fluent strategic analysis, you can still work your way around it and and at least put a very minimal effort to have some sort of basic interaction. i mean, fucking units names are the same in both languages, a tank is a fuckin tank. a zergling is a fucking zerlings. Just say things; Jos! your timing push is tooooo late ..tooo late. or...vs Mech...more zerglings... your 3rd expo....tooooo soon... your defilers...tooo late..., always killllll reaver first!! etc... by getting used to it, both parties will get better at it. Discussions will be basic at first..but then both parties will get to know each other, Ret will pick up a few korean words along the way, and koreans should at least feel a bit excited since they can practice some english (hey its only the international lingua franca..so who cares) if you guys think that this can't be done, you should download the Mondragon vs Sea[Shield] replay on fighting spirit where Mondragon, Ret ...and some other foreigners talk with Sea Shield about football(soccer). again..im NOT saying every Estro member is as cool..as skilled, as handsome, as friendly..and as good in english as SeaShield..but it gives you an indication of what type of conversations are possible.
i dont know if he took his decision yet but honestly, i hope Ret stays for at least some time to really sort things out and to really decide if his dream is humanely possible or not. The ONLY way to do that is to first and foremost to TALK TO HWANNI, THE ESTRO MANAGER (that he himself described as "really nice guy"), AND TO EXPLAIN HIM HIS SITUATION AND HOW PLAYING ICCUP-ONLY IS ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT. and then to practice his fucking ass off. If he can survive in the most intensely competitive gaming circuit in the history of the universe, he'll be a monster when he comes back to Holland to pursue whatever endeavors he feels like. Everything else will feel like a piece of cake.
GL Jos!
1. If I am to take a bet, I'd say that Artosis and all of them guys who organized it knew about the adverse condition but their personal fantasy of even a small chance to see a foreigner succeed was so strong, they went along with it. In fact, anyone'd be a fool to think that they got ret to do anything but scrubbing toilets. Call them racist if you will. The reality is that they don't give a rat's ass about any new foreign guy in Korea nearly as much as you guys do and they certainly won't go out of their ways of speaking another language or deviating from the culture to accommodate his needs. Their house, their rules - even if it's unfair.
2. Is it so fucking unreasonable to think that if they have 30 minutes to spare, they'd rather take a break from their stressful 10 hour practice than waste it playing with a noob whom they have no way of communicating?
3. Of course it's not impossible. Except they'd rather have him learn and speak korean. In an ideal world, everyone would be helpful to each other and try their hardest to fulfill everyone's needs. The only problem is....we don't live in an ideal world. If ret wants to make it big, he'd have to overcome these disadvantages and just continue playing.
On December 29 2009 10:16 intrudor wrote: Lets fuckin face it people; Korea is, by western standards, pretty damn racist. Call it culture, call it xenophobia, but thats the bottom line. No matter how politically correct you want to be, how many analogies you want to use, or how carefully designed your euphemisms are, koreans are racists. Im not saying that racism is absent in the US/Euro zone. it's just that some countries are more racists than others. There is a reason why the observed frequency of football fans throwing bananas to black players is higher in say, Italy and Spain, than in Britain or France. Everything is relative. Everyone is equal but some are more equal than others. Every country is equally racist but some are more racist than others.
There are 2 types of racism, i'd say. Number 1 is just outright racism where you yell slurs at indonesian/pakistani/ppl from poor asian countries/blacks..etc.. in a fucking bus downtown Seoul NYTimes Article.
Number 2 is more applicable at Americans/whites/caucasians..etc.. while not exactly outright racism, i'd call it xenophobia. defined as "a dislike and/or fear of that which is unknown or different from oneself." Not as bad as number 1, but still clearly not an appropriate way to treat people.
In Ret's case, i don't know if xenophobia was a a determinant factor, but a lot of things just don't fucking make sense.
1. We're in 2009. Sc has been released 12 years ago. Progaming has been going on for a while. A few foreigners tried to become pros and with the exception of Idra (im excluding Grrrr..Elky..etc..because their era was way too early) they all went home because the working conditions were not adequate. Artosis is the most knowledgeable white dude in Korea when it comes to progaming AND he has mad connections AND he is pretty much the liaison between aspiring foreign pros and pro-teams. Now, is it fair to say that some major miscommunication occurred when Ret was negotiating with Estro to go to Korea? If he KNEW that his freaking teammates would be sure to totally ignore him and decline to play even just a few games with him, would he have accepted to go and accept the moronic fact; bah i guess im just gonna play iCCup. no big deal. (sorry to burst anyone's bubble but iccup-only type of training is lightyears away from pro-training). If NOT playing a foreign teammate is proper etiquette, why didn't guys like Artosis alert Ret before moving to Korea? Artosis knows exactly what happened to Nony and Draco..etc. Miscommunication or is Estro being suddenly xenophobic?
2. Ignoring this Dutch dude who lives in your Pro-House?! wtf. Progamers play an absurd amount of hours each day. From this, an intelligent person will conclude that an absurd amount of games is being played between each progamer. Now, pro-training tells us that after each games, it's always better if you go over your replays and you discuss strategy. Great. Does that mean that Ret HAS to be ignored since he can't participate in complex strategic discussions after each games? How about this, lets say Korean Progamer X plays 50 games a day. Is it reasonable for the Estro manager to ask him to play 48 games strictly against korean opponents and during the course of the day, to force him to play vs some dude from Holland since he's part of the team too. That way, this Korean Progamer X will be able to discuss strategy and go over replays 48 times. That's a 96% ratio. 4% of the time, he won't be able to discuss strategy because his english is too limited and the dude from Holland doesn't speak korean. But who cares since he's chobo anyways because he's not korean so it's pointless to discuss strategy with him. But since the same 2 games are expected from every team member, Ret will find himself playing 2 games times whatever the number of pro-koreans living in the house is. Which in a perfect world would add up to like 30 games a day. The rest of the time, he still has iCCup and he can fill in holes by analyzing replays. That's much closer to a real pro-training.
3. Are strategic discussions between Ret and coaches/managers/players etc.. totally fucking impossible? Give me a break. Not all korean progamers are totally unable to speak english. Even if it'll never be as deep as a fluent vs fluent strategic analysis, you can still work your way around it and and at least put a very minimal effort to have some sort of basic interaction. i mean, fucking units names are the same in both languages, a tank is a fuckin tank. a zergling is a fucking zerlings. Just say things; Jos! your timing push is tooooo late ..tooo late. or...vs Mech...more zerglings... your 3rd expo....tooooo soon... your defilers...tooo late..., always killllll reaver first!! etc... by getting used to it, both parties will get better at it. Discussions will be basic at first..but then both parties will get to know each other, Ret will pick up a few korean words along the way, and koreans should at least feel a bit excited since they can practice some english (hey its only the international lingua franca..so who cares) if you guys think that this can't be done, you should download the Mondragon vs Sea[Shield] replay on fighting spirit where Mondragon, Ret ...and some other foreigners talk with Sea Shield about football(soccer). again..im NOT saying every Estro member is as cool..as skilled, as handsome, as friendly..and as good in english as SeaShield..but it gives you an indication of what type of conversations are possible.
i dont know if he took his decision yet but honestly, i hope Ret stays for at least some time to really sort things out and to really decide if his dream is humanely possible or not. The ONLY way to do that is to first and foremost to TALK TO HWANNI, THE ESTRO MANAGER (that he himself described as "really nice guy"), AND TO EXPLAIN HIM HIS SITUATION AND HOW PLAYING ICCUP-ONLY IS ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT. and then to practice his fucking ass off. If he can survive in the most intensely competitive gaming circuit in the history of the universe, he'll be a monster when he comes back to Holland to pursue whatever endeavors he feels like. Everything else will feel like a piece of cake.
GL Jos!
1. If I am to take a bet, I'd say that Artosis and all of them guys who organized it knew about the adverse condition but their personal fantasy of even a small chance to see a foreigner succeed was so strong, they went along with it. In fact, anyone'd be a fool to think that they got ret to do anything but scrubbing toilets. Call them racist if you will. The reality is that they don't give a rat's ass about any new foreign guy in Korea nearly as much as you guys do and they certainly won't go out of their ways of speaking another language or deviating from the culture to accommodate his needs. Their house, their rules - even if it's unfair.
2. Is it so fucking unreasonable to think that if they have 30 minutes to spare, they'd rather take a break from their stressful 10 hour practice than waste it playing with a noob whom they have no way of communicating?
3. Of course it's not impossible. Except they'd rather have him learn and speak korean. In an ideal world, everyone would be helpful to each other and try their hardest to fulfill everyone's needs. The only problem is....we don't live in an ideal world. If ret wants to make it big, he'd have to overcome these disadvantages and just continue playing.
thanks, you saved me a lot of writing time ^^ I really don't understand why everyone here expects ret to be treated in a special way... No Korean, who plays like him, would be even allowed in the progaming house... It is not like his 'mates' play against other korean dudes equally weak (from their point of view) instead of ret... And why the fuck do >>>IN KOREA tenplus KOREANS<<< have to speak ENGLISH with the ONE foreign dude, instead of him learning KOREAN??? Lol??? maybe it doesn't fit in you mind, but no, not the whole world is centered about the english language... There is no f... reason for a group of koreans in Korea to learn/use english, because their is ONE foreigner... Maybe on TL ret is a superstar... but in korea he is just one out of hundreds of ppl trying to be progamer, and he is by far not strong enough to be noticed there... If he wouldn't be a foreigner he would be completly ignored, like this he gets almost completly ignored... I don't see any racism in here... I see more racism in the expectations here, that every korean has to speak english with him instead of him speaking korean with them ^^
On December 29 2009 04:01 ret wrote: I definately still believe it can be done in Korea.
I don't want to make excuses or anything, but there are guys who won their courage group this past weekend that I have played a lot with online and I had huge winning records on them. (T/P users). And I know other foreigners would do well vs them also.
But for me personally, age is a huge factor like some people here pointed out. If I was younger, I wouldn't even think twice about what to do and just keep trying my best and eventually win courage and just keep trying. But yes I am quite old, so wasting time would be bad, and with SC2 coming out I don't know how feasible it is to stay. I think someone like Kolll (very young, already very good, and not yet ruined by all the freedom you get after high school :p) would succeed here quite easily. I absolutely hate the fact that I 'failed' however, and it just hurts more to see players worse than you do well. Maybe I should try one more time D:
good mindset! I hope you do well and even if you come back from Korea at least not with mostly bitter memories
On December 29 2009 16:30 lynx.oblige wrote: Well, they do live near lots and lots of asians. :O Not that it makes it okay, but understable as they are completely surrounded by other asian countries.
agreed , if they had laws as lax as the US or EU they'd be flooded with heaps of Chinese
whoa I didn't know he couldn't ZvZ. What a shame. But really with all the sc nerds atm in Korea wouldn't it be possible to have some foreign sc house where Dan and Spunky would run the slavery?
Ret deserves so much more credit than a lot of you are giving him. I know a lot of the issue is the culture and training environment, but if you look at what he's done giving his situation, it's really not bad.
First courage- loses to the guy in his WORST mu that went on to win that courage
Second courage- barely loses to another zerg in his worst mu that he took a game off, almost 2.
These guys Ret are playing are like A-/A Koreans on Iccup. If he was streaming and took a game off of one of them you would call him sick. I stand behind Jos 100% and hope he keeps trying because I believe when he sets his mind to something, he gets it done.
On December 29 2009 21:25 Kenny wrote: First courage- loses to the guy in his WORST mu that went on to win that courage
Second courage- barely loses to another zerg in his worst mu that he took a game off, almost 2.
so between courage #1 and courage #2 his worst match up switched from ZvT to ZvZ?
i think he means the one who beat him won the group, and the korean guy's worst mu was vZ. Nor sure though. Ret's ZvZ is his worst mu, as he claimed it several tmes (no wonder, he used to offrace against Z)
These guys Ret are playing are like A-/A Koreans on Iccup. If he was streaming and took a game off of one of them you would call him sick. I stand behind Jos 100% and hope he keeps trying because I believe when he sets his mind to something, he gets it done.
If you really want to become a Progamer you should be able to beat these guys before you move. Else your just hoping on some kind of "foreigner bonus", which obviously isn't smart.
Btw: As i saw the first vid with Artosis in a Progamer house i knew that this would be my personal hell... I can't understand how anyone would want to go there (noisy rooms full of little nerds only hacking away at their keyboards witheout having any sort of visible fun?)... You better be sure to make it and have something to backup your *feeling* before even thinking about trying.
I guess the point I was getting at is Ret is pursuing a dream of his. We all do this in life, so I think instead of pointing out the obvious (the hell it is to be a progamer) why can't we stand behind him a little more, and give him some moral support until SC2?
It might be to late for that, who knows, but whatever the case is I'm routing for you Jos!
There is something that I do not understand about some of the" anti-special treatment" arguments that were made in this thread. How is expecting equal treatment considered "special" treatment?
Nobody is saying that B-teamers on eSTRO should play with Ret more then everyone else. However, if everyone else in eSTRO gets to play with everyone else, it is only right that Ret gets to play with them as well. Even if they cannot discuss strategy with him, at least he will have the benefit of being able to analyze his replays.
Nobody is saying Ret shouldn`t learn Korean. But if he never gets engaged in conversations (or attempts of conversations), he will never learn the language. You can`t expect him to learn Korean by being isolated from everyone else.
Lastly, nobody expects eSTRO on focusing on Ret to get better. However, if he cannot even partially reap the benefits of professional training, he will never get better. What is the point of even recruiting him if you do not want him to get better?
Seriously, I am tired of seeing arguments that seem to claim that Ret being completely ignored is somehow the right thing. IdrA is the living proof that one can get better through professional training, in spite of the racism and language barrier. Call it culture, call it racism, call it xenophobia...nothing can justify eSTRO B-teamers shunning Ret. He is their teammate, regardless where he is from. What kind of solidarity and team spirit is that when you intentionally refuse to play with your own teammate? That is not equal treatment, that is "special" treatment in the very negative sense of the word.
I agree that Ret should not be treated special simply beacuse he is a foreigner. He DOES, however, deserve to be treated like everyone else. Being shunned by your teammates is not what I would call being treated equally.
On December 29 2009 23:26 Tom Phoenix wrote: There is something that I do not understand about some of the" anti-special treatment" arguments that were made in this thread. How is expecting equal treatment considered "special" treatment?
Nobody is saying that B-teamers on eSTRO should play with Ret more then everyone else. However, if everyone else in eSTRO gets to play with everyone else, it is only right that Ret gets to play with them as well. Even if they cannot discuss strategy with him, at least he will have the benefit of being able to analyze his replays.
Nobody is saying Ret shouldn`t learn Korean. But if he never gets engaged in conversations (or attempts of conversations), he will never learn the language. You can`t expect him to learn Korean by being isolated from everyone else.
Lastly, nobody expects eSTRO on focusing on Ret to get better. However, if he cannot even partially reap the benefits of professional training, he will never get better. What is the point of even recruiting him if you do not want him to get better?
Seriously, I am tired of seeing arguments that seem to claim that Ret being completely ignored is somehow the right thing. IdrA is the living proof that one can get better through professional training, in spite of the racism and language barrier. Call it culture, call it racism, call it xenophobia...nothing can justify eSTRO B-teamers shunning Ret. He is their teammate, regardless where he is from. What kind of solidarity and team spirit is that when you intentionally refuse to play with your own teammate? That is not equal treatment, that is "special" treatment in the very negative sense of the word.
I agree that Ret should not be treated special simply beacuse he is a foreigner. He DOES, however, deserve to be treated like everyone else. Being shunned by your teammates is not what I would call being treated equally.
About language i want to let u think about one thing: you ever play for 14 hours in one day? no stop gaming and make a break only for lunch and dinner? u think ret has yet some strenght to learn korean?i dont think so, also for other players they dont want waste time to teach language to Ret cause if they waste time to practice/sleep or something else they never get better. When you are a b-teamers you become selfish and you have only one task in your mind: become a A-team member. ( dont think bad about selfishness...i know they become friends but there is always a "hidden rivalry" between them ) I think that would be a better solution i Jos had learn some korean before start for his trip; Idra already told about this language difficulty and Nony too.
i hope you understand my lame english =/ I think Jos take in a too easy way this adventure in Korea...
Well the whole story is really sad in some ways. The only reason i thought Korean teams will stick up more for foreing players would be for the simple fact that they are foreingners. So a foreign player beating some korean players in my mind i thought would bring a lot of hype, and teams must have known that. But obviously they didn't and they don't really care for anyone but themselves. So sad.
So, even idrA is really bm, i really hope he does really really well in Korea only to see him pawn koreans to death.
After three months Ret still didn't learn how to say 'zerg' in Korean. I was bashing estro for bullying him. But it seems he really didn't know what he was going to get himself into. I don't want to give Rekrul credit because he's an asshole and acts like an idiot to make people go off at him. But it seems he didn't talk at all with Idra and Nony about it.
I get a feeling he also didn't have to do the chores all other low ranking player have to do.
On December 29 2009 23:26 Tom Phoenix wrote: There is something that I do not understand about some of the" anti-special treatment" arguments that were made in this thread. How is expecting equal treatment considered "special" treatment?
Nobody is saying that B-teamers on eSTRO should play with Ret more then everyone else. However, if everyone else in eSTRO gets to play with everyone else, it is only right that Ret gets to play with them as well. Even if they cannot discuss strategy with him, at least he will have the benefit of being able to analyze his replays.
Nobody is saying Ret shouldn`t learn Korean. But if he never gets engaged in conversations (or attempts of conversations), he will never learn the language. You can`t expect him to learn Korean by being isolated from everyone else.
Lastly, nobody expects eSTRO on focusing on Ret to get better. However, if he cannot even partially reap the benefits of professional training, he will never get better. What is the point of even recruiting him if you do not want him to get better?
Seriously, I am tired of seeing arguments that seem to claim that Ret being completely ignored is somehow the right thing. IdrA is the living proof that one can get better through professional training, in spite of the racism and language barrier. Call it culture, call it racism, call it xenophobia...nothing can justify eSTRO B-teamers shunning Ret. He is their teammate, regardless where he is from. What kind of solidarity and team spirit is that when you intentionally refuse to play with your own teammate? That is not equal treatment, that is "special" treatment in the very negative sense of the word.
I agree that Ret should not be treated special simply beacuse he is a foreigner. He DOES, however, deserve to be treated like everyone else. Being shunned by your teammates is not what I would call being treated equally.
Why do you exepct solidarity from introvert 17 yo koreans kids whose only objective is to be better than their teammate in order to get to the A team, the only thing which may worth losing years of your life living like a zombie in front of your screen playing a video game?
On December 30 2009 01:29 MageKirby wrote: Wait, so these people went to korea to live there without learning how to even speak the language in a casual sense? Whoa......
I doubt he even knows the alphabet, which is a problem when you go to a different country.
On December 29 2009 10:16 intrudor wrote: Lets fuckin face it people; Korea is, by western standards, pretty damn racist. Call it culture, call it xenophobia, but thats the bottom line. No matter how politically correct you want to be, how many analogies you want to use, or how carefully designed your euphemisms are, koreans are racists. Im not saying that racism is absent in the US/Euro zone. it's just that some countries are more racists than others. There is a reason why the observed frequency of football fans throwing bananas to black players is higher in say, Italy and Spain, than in Britain or France. Everything is relative. Everyone is equal but some are more equal than others. Every country is equally racist but some are more racist than others.
There are 2 types of racism, i'd say. Number 1 is just outright racism where you yell slurs at indonesian/pakistani/ppl from poor asian countries/blacks..etc.. in a fucking bus downtown Seoul NYTimes Article.
Number 2 is more applicable at Americans/whites/caucasians..etc.. while not exactly outright racism, i'd call it xenophobia. defined as "a dislike and/or fear of that which is unknown or different from oneself." Not as bad as number 1, but still clearly not an appropriate way to treat people.
In Ret's case, i don't know if xenophobia was a a determinant factor, but a lot of things just don't fucking make sense.
1. We're in 2009. Sc has been released 12 years ago. Progaming has been going on for a while. A few foreigners tried to become pros and with the exception of Idra (im excluding Grrrr..Elky..etc..because their era was way too early) they all went home because the working conditions were not adequate. Artosis is the most knowledgeable white dude in Korea when it comes to progaming AND he has mad connections AND he is pretty much the liaison between aspiring foreign pros and pro-teams. Now, is it fair to say that some major miscommunication occurred when Ret was negotiating with Estro to go to Korea? If he KNEW that his freaking teammates would be sure to totally ignore him and decline to play even just a few games with him, would he have accepted to go and accept the moronic fact; bah i guess im just gonna play iCCup. no big deal. (sorry to burst anyone's bubble but iccup-only type of training is lightyears away from pro-training). If NOT playing a foreign teammate is proper etiquette, why didn't guys like Artosis alert Ret before moving to Korea? Artosis knows exactly what happened to Nony and Draco..etc. Miscommunication or is Estro being suddenly xenophobic?
2. Ignoring this Dutch dude who lives in your Pro-House?! wtf. Progamers play an absurd amount of hours each day. From this, an intelligent person will conclude that an absurd amount of games is being played between each progamer. Now, pro-training tells us that after each games, it's always better if you go over your replays and you discuss strategy. Great. Does that mean that Ret HAS to be ignored since he can't participate in complex strategic discussions after each games? How about this, lets say Korean Progamer X plays 50 games a day. Is it reasonable for the Estro manager to ask him to play 48 games strictly against korean opponents and during the course of the day, to force him to play vs some dude from Holland since he's part of the team too. That way, this Korean Progamer X will be able to discuss strategy and go over replays 48 times. That's a 96% ratio. 4% of the time, he won't be able to discuss strategy because his english is too limited and the dude from Holland doesn't speak korean. But who cares since he's chobo anyways because he's not korean so it's pointless to discuss strategy with him. But since the same 2 games are expected from every team member, Ret will find himself playing 2 games times whatever the number of pro-koreans living in the house is. Which in a perfect world would add up to like 30 games a day. The rest of the time, he still has iCCup and he can fill in holes by analyzing replays. That's much closer to a real pro-training.
3. Are strategic discussions between Ret and coaches/managers/players etc.. totally fucking impossible? Give me a break. Not all korean progamers are totally unable to speak english. Even if it'll never be as deep as a fluent vs fluent strategic analysis, you can still work your way around it and and at least put a very minimal effort to have some sort of basic interaction. i mean, fucking units names are the same in both languages, a tank is a fuckin tank. a zergling is a fucking zerlings. Just say things; Jos! your timing push is tooooo late ..tooo late. or...vs Mech...more zerglings... your 3rd expo....tooooo soon... your defilers...tooo late..., always killllll reaver first!! etc... by getting used to it, both parties will get better at it. Discussions will be basic at first..but then both parties will get to know each other, Ret will pick up a few korean words along the way, and koreans should at least feel a bit excited since they can practice some english (hey its only the international lingua franca..so who cares) if you guys think that this can't be done, you should download the Mondragon vs Sea[Shield] replay on fighting spirit where Mondragon, Ret ...and some other foreigners talk with Sea Shield about football(soccer). again..im NOT saying every Estro member is as cool..as skilled, as handsome, as friendly..and as good in english as SeaShield..but it gives you an indication of what type of conversations are possible.
i dont know if he took his decision yet but honestly, i hope Ret stays for at least some time to really sort things out and to really decide if his dream is humanely possible or not. The ONLY way to do that is to first and foremost to TALK TO HWANNI, THE ESTRO MANAGER (that he himself described as "really nice guy"), AND TO EXPLAIN HIM HIS SITUATION AND HOW PLAYING ICCUP-ONLY IS ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT. and then to practice his fucking ass off. If he can survive in the most intensely competitive gaming circuit in the history of the universe, he'll be a monster when he comes back to Holland to pursue whatever endeavors he feels like. Everything else will feel like a piece of cake.
GL Jos!
1. If I am to take a bet, I'd say that Artosis and all of them guys who organized it knew about the adverse condition but their personal fantasy of even a small chance to see a foreigner succeed was so strong, they went along with it. In fact, anyone'd be a fool to think that they got ret to do anything but scrubbing toilets. Call them racist if you will. The reality is that they don't give a rat's ass about any new foreign guy in Korea nearly as much as you guys do and they certainly won't go out of their ways of speaking another language or deviating from the culture to accommodate his needs. Their house, their rules - even if it's unfair.
2. Is it so fucking unreasonable to think that if they have 30 minutes to spare, they'd rather take a break from their stressful 10 hour practice than waste it playing with a noob whom they have no way of communicating?
3. Of course it's not impossible. Except they'd rather have him learn and speak korean. In an ideal world, everyone would be helpful to each other and try their hardest to fulfill everyone's needs. The only problem is....we don't live in an ideal world. If ret wants to make it big, he'd have to overcome these disadvantages and just continue playing.
thanks, you saved me a lot of writing time ^^ I really don't understand why everyone here expects ret to be treated in a special way... No Korean, who plays like him, would be even allowed in the progaming house... It is not like his 'mates' play against other korean dudes equally weak (from their point of view) instead of ret... And why the fuck do >>>IN KOREA tenplus KOREANS<<< have to speak ENGLISH with the ONE foreign dude, instead of him learning KOREAN??? Lol??? maybe it doesn't fit in you mind, but no, not the whole world is centered about the english language... There is no f... reason for a group of koreans in Korea to learn/use english, because their is ONE foreigner... Maybe on TL ret is a superstar... but in korea he is just one out of hundreds of ppl trying to be progamer, and he is by far not strong enough to be noticed there... If he wouldn't be a foreigner he would be completly ignored, like this he gets almost completly ignored... I don't see any racism in here... I see more racism in the expectations here, that every korean has to speak english with him instead of him speaking korean with them ^^
Agreed. Why should they bow to his wishes? He's the one looking to gain from this situation. Estro does not need ret.
On December 29 2009 16:17 PrideNeverDies wrote: the difference between korean racism and racism around the world is that korean culture doesn't condemn racism but accepts it and indirectly promotes it in korean law and in the minds of its citizens. that is why the new generations of koreans who live in korea still have the same mindset due to the institutional policies set in place.
it takes living in a different culture and location for koreans to realize that their subtle actions are wrong and racist. if they lived in korea, the small racist things they do wouldn't even be noticed.
Your expectations are more racist in my opinion. This is exactly the kind of mindset that leads to the acceptance of the American Empire in everything but name. Korea is almost 100% Korean. If you go to Korea, you're a guest at best and a parasite at worst. If you go to a different country, learn the language, and the culture before going, at the very least. It's not their job to bow to your whims, it's your job to assimilate into the culture. If you don't like it, tough shit, it's not like your arrival was the second coming of Jesus. It's the same thing as Muslims building minarets in Switzerland.
I personally think that anybody who wants to go to a different country and be a professional progamer or whatever would be wise enough to learn the basics of the language .... I mean i understand certain circumstances but lets be real... if you somewhat remotely know another country's language people will be more open to speak with you because of the fact you can communicate with them. There will obviously be a culture barrier but communication can break most barrier's.... Imagine you go to Korea and know how to speak the basic language or the basic terms to be a progamer... dont you think they would respect the fact that you are trying to be a team player by learning their language that way you can communicate with them and maybe win over their favor since you seem to want to know about them more... if i could speak korean and im an already outgoing person.. i would be there trying to make them laugh by making a fool of myself and just complementing them on their gameplay and their hard work... that in itself will go a long way.
I was so excited to read rekruls post... because it really opens up people's minds especially the 20 and younger crowd we have here because alot of them dont know what its like to earn their own dollar and most of what they say is just newb ish... (Im 26, Married, And have a Great job) ... but I can see how the koreans act exactly how he potrays them for example look at Tossgirls most recent interview about how she cried when she lost to IdRA (Koreans really look at Foreigners as inferior to them..... but i can also see them opening up to someone they can communicate with.
All in all i say if you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to be a successfull pro-gamer... 1) Learn Basic Language of the country your going 2) Be freaking Beyond GoSu 3) Wait till starcraft 2 comes out before you make the move if its SC that your going for. 4) Have a decent bank account of your own... these are things people really need to look at!!
On December 28 2009 06:45 Chill wrote: Agreed on every point.
Actually, even though it's public knowledge, I never knew how progaming actually worked until I was in Korea. You don't have a life. You follow their schedule, day in, day out, for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's not exciting to live in Korea because you can't fucking talk to anyone because they don't speak English, you don't have time to learn Korean, and you don't have time to actually step outside and see any of Seoul.
If anything, Idra deserves ridiculous amounts of credit for doing what he's done for so long. I know I wouldn't last 3 days. I'm completely serious.
Hey Chill ! still in korea ? I've been in korea for 3 weeks in October, i could visit estro house thanks to artosis, they are really close to slaves ... I couldn't believe they didn't let ret visit seoul for his first days in korea (he had no computer, he had to stay in estro house doing .. nothing). BUT visiting korea for holidays was beyond my expectations ! I had really great fun in gangnam ~every night thanks to dan <3, nick/amarisse & his buddies matt & scott, jamie & susie, rekrul, chill, etc hwannie great guy but works too much for my french standards at least
PS : i didn't play a single after my trip in korea .. guess why ... ahah .. p oker and SF4 for now..
On December 29 2009 23:26 Tom Phoenix wrote: There is something that I do not understand about some of the" anti-special treatment" arguments that were made in this thread. How is expecting equal treatment considered "special" treatment?
Nobody is saying that B-teamers on eSTRO should play with Ret more then everyone else. However, if everyone else in eSTRO gets to play with everyone else, it is only right that Ret gets to play with them as well. Even if they cannot discuss strategy with him, at least he will have the benefit of being able to analyze his replays.
Nobody is saying Ret shouldn`t learn Korean. But if he never gets engaged in conversations (or attempts of conversations), he will never learn the language. You can`t expect him to learn Korean by being isolated from everyone else.
Lastly, nobody expects eSTRO on focusing on Ret to get better. However, if he cannot even partially reap the benefits of professional training, he will never get better. What is the point of even recruiting him if you do not want him to get better?
Seriously, I am tired of seeing arguments that seem to claim that Ret being completely ignored is somehow the right thing. IdrA is the living proof that one can get better through professional training, in spite of the racism and language barrier. Call it culture, call it racism, call it xenophobia...nothing can justify eSTRO B-teamers shunning Ret. He is their teammate, regardless where he is from. What kind of solidarity and team spirit is that when you intentionally refuse to play with your own teammate? That is not equal treatment, that is "special" treatment in the very negative sense of the word.
I agree that Ret should not be treated special simply beacuse he is a foreigner. He DOES, however, deserve to be treated like everyone else. Being shunned by your teammates is not what I would call being treated equally.
The way I see it, you make your own opportunities or you leave. I don't think he was shunned, he just wasn't paid any attention to. And why should they? There's no obligations for the players or coaches to care. And I don't think he deserves to be treated like anyone else. Joining the team doesn't mean he gets to practice with everyone else. He still has to make friends and line up practice partners himself. And yes, he has zero opportunity to do so, because he doesn't speak the language. But then, again, that's his problem, not theirs.
Obviously Ret does deserve proper treatment. He was invited. Estro paid his expenses. Both sides had their expectations and both sides need to live up to that.
Ret didn't even know why they refused to play him. If the coach was like "Ok Ret, most players don't want to play you because you are not good and you can't discuss the game. But give it some time. Do well in courage, get prize money in TSL2 and buy them dinner and they will play. Then they will start to play with you."
If Estro players didn't want to play him because he's chubby, old, not American, white and they don't want to be shamed by losing to a non-Korean, etc then eStro shouldn't even invite nonKoreans. Ret gave up a year of education for them. If he isn't even welcome then that's just very poor hospitality.
Now if Ret was lazy and broke schedule all the time and made unfair requests all the time, fine. But Ret was there to grind away.
But yeah it's probably a power struggle. These foreign players are forced down estro's throat by IEG. Estro doesn't want them because it disrupts their team. So they do nothing which is like bullying them away.
It's like "lololol IEG got another foreign player. He is going to waste his time probably. We won't allow him to take Korean lessons, players won't want to play him. We won't do anything to make him feel welcome. We will treat him like a slave just a bit more than we do with the Koreans but he won't receive our support. He will fail, haha."
But I think Ret didn't try hard enough. He could have seen on TL which eStro B teamers were up against zergs. He could get a translator and ask them "You play zerg. You play Eu Yoon Su. I help. Game?" and in the mean time he should just have build up a list of practice partners. He could still play with many foreigners and with korean amateurs. Now if nothing changed after he won Courage after 6 tries and CJ wanted to take him, sure then you can go home.
If you give it time things will probably work out. Dont be serious as shit and thinking you let yourself down or anything with the Courage results. Whatever happends it's not the end of the world.
On December 30 2009 01:48 AM.23)Jehuty wrote: I personally think that anybody who wants to go to a different country and be a professional progamer or whatever would be wise enough to learn the basics of the language .... I mean i understand certain circumstances but lets be real... if you somewhat remotely know another country's language people will be more open to speak with you because of the fact you can communicate with them. There will obviously be a culture barrier but communication can break most barrier's.... Imagine you go to Korea and know how to speak the basic language or the basic terms to be a progamer... dont you think they would respect the fact that you are trying to be a team player by learning their language that way you can communicate with them and maybe win over their favor since you seem to want to know about them more... if i could speak korean and im an already outgoing person.. i would be there trying to make them laugh by making a fool of myself and just complementing them on their gameplay and their hard work... that in itself will go a long way.
thats not entirely fair, he didnt have much time before moving out here to learn the language since he had to come in time for ief, and for most people its very hard to learn a language by submersion when you have no framework to build on. and with korean you really do have no framework since its not related to any of the languages he speaks. ya, it would be very good to study it, but you have to keep in mind that you have maybe 3-4 hours of free time a day in which you also have to eat and do stuff. and you dont get enough sleep at night so most players nap during free time as well. its really not all that practical unless the team agrees to let you take some time out of practice for classes.
On December 29 2009 04:01 ret wrote: I definately still believe it can be done in Korea.
I don't want to make excuses or anything, but there are guys who won their courage group this past weekend that I have played a lot with online and I had huge winning records on them. (T/P users). And I know other foreigners would do well vs them also.
But for me personally, age is a huge factor like some people here pointed out. If I was younger, I wouldn't even think twice about what to do and just keep trying my best and eventually win courage and just keep trying. But yes I am quite old, so wasting time would be bad, and with SC2 coming out I don't know how feasible it is to stay. I think someone like Kolll (very young, already very good, and not yet ruined by all the freedom you get after high school :p) would succeed here quite easily. I absolutely hate the fact that I 'failed' however, and it just hurts more to see players worse than you do well. Maybe I should try one more time D:
I just can't believe that after all rekrul said and after all that happened to you, you still come here to brag about some wins over people who won the courage and say that you are a better player than idra and it makes you sad to see him doing well...
You should be amazed that idra is doing well, you should copy every aspect of idra's life. he is not doing well just because he is good at SC, there is a lot of factors behind...
read read and re-read rekrul post.
You are white, a foreigner, don't speak korean, is a "big" person, you don't play ZvZ and you don't have the korean personality...
also the fact that you won one game against idra doesn't mean you are a better player.
to be a better player you need consistent results, accomplishment, discipline, patience to sit and repeat the same strategy over and over to become a robot, etc.
idra was the most hated person in the entire community, to become what he is now after all the hate... its not because his trolling is fun...
On December 30 2009 01:48 AM.23)Jehuty wrote: I personally think that anybody who wants to go to a different country and be a professional progamer or whatever would be wise enough to learn the basics of the language .... I mean i understand certain circumstances but lets be real... if you somewhat remotely know another country's language people will be more open to speak with you because of the fact you can communicate with them. There will obviously be a culture barrier but communication can break most barrier's.... Imagine you go to Korea and know how to speak the basic language or the basic terms to be a progamer... dont you think they would respect the fact that you are trying to be a team player by learning their language that way you can communicate with them and maybe win over their favor since you seem to want to know about them more... if i could speak korean and im an already outgoing person.. i would be there trying to make them laugh by making a fool of myself and just complementing them on their gameplay and their hard work... that in itself will go a long way.
thats not entirely fair, he didnt have much time before moving out here to learn the language since he had to come in time for ief, and for most people its very hard to learn a language by submersion when you have no framework to build on. and with korean you really do have no framework since its not related to any of the languages he speaks. ya, it would be very good to study it, but you have to keep in mind that you have maybe 3-4 hours of free time a day in which you also have to eat and do stuff. and you dont get enough sleep at night so most players nap during free time as well. its really not all that practical unless the team agrees to let you take some time out of practice for classes.
Problem being it's horrendously difficult to learn a language so different if you don't have some basics.
How did you manage, Idra? How long did it take you?
On December 30 2009 01:48 AM.23)Jehuty wrote: I personally think that anybody who wants to go to a different country and be a professional progamer or whatever would be wise enough to learn the basics of the language .... I mean i understand certain circumstances but lets be real... if you somewhat remotely know another country's language people will be more open to speak with you because of the fact you can communicate with them. There will obviously be a culture barrier but communication can break most barrier's.... Imagine you go to Korea and know how to speak the basic language or the basic terms to be a progamer... dont you think they would respect the fact that you are trying to be a team player by learning their language that way you can communicate with them and maybe win over their favor since you seem to want to know about them more... if i could speak korean and im an already outgoing person.. i would be there trying to make them laugh by making a fool of myself and just complementing them on their gameplay and their hard work... that in itself will go a long way.
thats not entirely fair, he didnt have much time before moving out here to learn the language since he had to come in time for ief, and for most people its very hard to learn a language by submersion when you have no framework to build on. and with korean you really do have no framework since its not related to any of the languages he speaks. ya, it would be very good to study it, but you have to keep in mind that you have maybe 3-4 hours of free time a day in which you also have to eat and do stuff. and you dont get enough sleep at night so most players nap during free time as well. its really not all that practical unless the team agrees to let you take some time out of practice for classes.
IdRA i agree with what you said... and i necessarily wasnt talking about RET's specific case because i cant really imagine what its like for YOU or him out their since i have never been to the country... but from what RekRul was saying i was pointing out that if anybody who is really serious about making it pro if you want to make the transition for yourself alittle smoother than it would be best to learn the language in basic terms... You are ABSOLUTLY correct with the korean language... it is its own world and i have only learned the basic greeting and how to pronounce my name.
What im basically saying is : If you want to go to a different country and be pro! Commit 6 months atleast to learning the language hardcore while you are in the comfort of your own vicinity.. whether you live at home/ own your place/ stay with friends ... Sacrifice your time to reap the benefits in the other country you choose to reside. Idra people mainly younger guy's need to understand their is a responsiblity a big responsiblity to Do their part AND MORE if they want to succeed.
I feel bad for RET and i know he will get better and another opportunity to do something will come up... im sure he learned from this expierience and will move on to do great things..
As for you Keep making TossGirl cry so she can lean on my shoulder one day and i hope your doing well man ... We are happy you represent most of us gamers who would love to be over there and pat you on the back and just give you support in person... but the internet is what most of us can only do
All in all!! LEARN THE LANGUAGE Ahead of time and be smart
On December 29 2009 04:01 ret wrote: I definately still believe it can be done in Korea.
I don't want to make excuses or anything, but there are guys who won their courage group this past weekend that I have played a lot with online and I had huge winning records on them. (T/P users). And I know other foreigners would do well vs them also.
But for me personally, age is a huge factor like some people here pointed out. If I was younger, I wouldn't even think twice about what to do and just keep trying my best and eventually win courage and just keep trying. But yes I am quite old, so wasting time would be bad, and with SC2 coming out I don't know how feasible it is to stay. I think someone like Kolll (very young, already very good, and not yet ruined by all the freedom you get after high school :p) would succeed here quite easily. I absolutely hate the fact that I 'failed' however, and it just hurts more to see players worse than you do well. Maybe I should try one more time D:
I just can't believe that after all rekrul said and after all that happened to you, you still come here to brag about some wins over people who won the courage and say that you are a better player than idra and it makes you sad to see him doing well...
You should be amazed that idra is doing well, you should copy every aspect of idra's life. he is not doing well just because he is good at SC, there is a lot of factors behind...
read read and re-read rekrul post.
You are white, a foreigner, don't speak korean, is a "big" person, you don't play ZvZ and you don't have the korean personality...
also the fact that you won one game against idra doesn't mean you are a better player.
to be a better player you need consistent results, accomplishment, discipline, patience to sit and repeat the same strategy over and over to become a robot, etc.
idra was the most hated person in the entire community, to become what he is now after all the hate... its not because his trolling is fun...
Learning a language is a difficult thing. See the above lack of reading comprehension as an example. Ilbh probably has years of experience with english, how could months of learning korean possibly compare? Then again, it might not be too bad if he could pick up some of the basics and then have someone who knows korean and knows starcraft game terms give them a list of those terms..
On December 29 2009 04:01 ret wrote: I definately still believe it can be done in Korea.
I don't want to make excuses or anything, but there are guys who won their courage group this past weekend that I have played a lot with online and I had huge winning records on them. (T/P users). And I know other foreigners would do well vs them also.
But for me personally, age is a huge factor like some people here pointed out. If I was younger, I wouldn't even think twice about what to do and just keep trying my best and eventually win courage and just keep trying. But yes I am quite old, so wasting time would be bad, and with SC2 coming out I don't know how feasible it is to stay. I think someone like Kolll (very young, already very good, and not yet ruined by all the freedom you get after high school :p) would succeed here quite easily. I absolutely hate the fact that I 'failed' however, and it just hurts more to see players worse than you do well. Maybe I should try one more time D:
I just can't believe that after all rekrul said and after all that happened to you, you still come here to brag about some wins over people who won the courage and say that you are a better player than idra and it makes you sad to see him doing well...
You should be amazed that idra is doing well, you should copy every aspect of idra's life. he is not doing well just because he is good at SC, there is a lot of factors behind...
read read and re-read rekrul post.
You are white, a foreigner, don't speak korean, is a "big" person, you don't play ZvZ and you don't have the korean personality...
also the fact that you won one game against idra doesn't mean you are a better player.
to be a better player you need consistent results, accomplishment, discipline, patience to sit and repeat the same strategy over and over to become a robot, etc.
idra was the most hated person in the entire community, to become what he is now after all the hate... its not because his trolling is fun...
Did you even read what Ret wrote? Wtf are you trollin about? Bragging? He even said he's not making excuses just lets us know that he can beat those guys. Nony could and he wasnt as dominant amongst foreigners as Ret is now.
His post has abolutely nothing to do with Idra, he doesnt even mentions him. You don't know shit about what Red or Idra does in Korea, nor do you know their personalities, yet you declare what Ret should do.
Who the hell is talking about that game? Not Ret for sure! Ret has consistent results amongst foreginers. Idra did not have too much until like half a year ago, when he already spent a lot of time in Korea. Ret has dicipline, he's not a 16 years old korean kid, but this doesnt mean he's impatinet.
Idra's BM has nothing to do with his development/skill. He plays too well, and when he loses he talks trash. You try to suggest that he plays well BECAUSE he talks shit and thinks eveybody is a skilles newbie (i exaggerate a bit )?
On December 30 2009 01:48 AM.23)Jehuty wrote: I personally think that anybody who wants to go to a different country and be a professional progamer or whatever would be wise enough to learn the basics of the language .... I mean i understand certain circumstances but lets be real... if you somewhat remotely know another country's language people will be more open to speak with you because of the fact you can communicate with them. There will obviously be a culture barrier but communication can break most barrier's.... Imagine you go to Korea and know how to speak the basic language or the basic terms to be a progamer... dont you think they would respect the fact that you are trying to be a team player by learning their language that way you can communicate with them and maybe win over their favor since you seem to want to know about them more... if i could speak korean and im an already outgoing person.. i would be there trying to make them laugh by making a fool of myself and just complementing them on their gameplay and their hard work... that in itself will go a long way.
I was so excited to read rekruls post... because it really opens up people's minds especially the 20 and younger crowd we have here because alot of them dont know what its like to earn their own dollar and most of what they say is just newb ish... (Im 26, Married, And have a Great job) ... but I can see how the koreans act exactly how he potrays them for example look at Tossgirls most recent interview about how she cried when she lost to IdRA (Koreans really look at Foreigners as inferior to them..... but i can also see them opening up to someone they can communicate with.
All in all i say if you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to be a successfull pro-gamer... 1) Learn Basic Language of the country your going 2) Be freaking Beyond GoSu 3) Wait till starcraft 2 comes out before you make the move if its SC that your going for. 4) Have a decent bank account of your own... these are things people really need to look at!!
Have fun and GG
Am.23)Jehuty aka O-MeGaMerc ICCUPID
lol.
That's great you have a good job and a wife. Can you teach us life, because we are ignorant kids? Maybe I can pm you ICCUPID and you explain me what I have to do to be succesfull also.
Seriously...
That's amazing how everybody knows better than ret what is good and what is bad for him. If he has to do mistakes in his life, he will learn from it. This patronizing attitude doesn't help.
On December 29 2009 11:13 FirstProbe wrote: Give up Ret. I don't know (you or) what you hope to achieve, but I doubt you'll have much success in Korea with Brood War. A matter of too little, too late, and wrong place. You see that now. Not that I wanted to see you fail; I'd have loved to see you on television... but I think there's nothing for you to realistically gain.
Why would you say something like that? Are you a friend of Ret? His father perhaps? If not, you should just shut up or at least not dress up your opinion as if it's supposed to be directed at Ret. I don't think he's waiting for randomdouche2250's tough love right now.
Why don't you shut up.
I'm allowed to voice my opinion. He doesn't have to take it. I didn't actually put him down, so perhaps you shouldn't take offense (why you are in the first place is beyond me). He understands the reality better than both of us, and I'd be surprised if he didn't think of doing exactly that, irrespective of whether or not he read my comment.
it's not about your opinion. it's about how you present your opinion.
Was Rekrul even in Korea during the time Ret was there? Did Rekrul ever meet Ret?
Rekrul is a failed poker player. What's different from being a failed progamer? Rekrul got lucky and won a lot yet he wasted all of it on stupid stuff. Yeah he had a good time, I am sure. But Rekrul is one of the worst examples one cat give to others.
Rekrul was just waiting for Ret to fail and then to get his attention. He's such a bad person online. User was banned for this post.
On December 30 2009 01:48 AM.23)Jehuty wrote: I personally think that anybody who wants to go to a different country and be a professional progamer or whatever would be wise enough to learn the basics of the language .... I mean i understand certain circumstances but lets be real... if you somewhat remotely know another country's language people will be more open to speak with you because of the fact you can communicate with them. There will obviously be a culture barrier but communication can break most barrier's.... Imagine you go to Korea and know how to speak the basic language or the basic terms to be a progamer... dont you think they would respect the fact that you are trying to be a team player by learning their language that way you can communicate with them and maybe win over their favor since you seem to want to know about them more... if i could speak korean and im an already outgoing person.. i would be there trying to make them laugh by making a fool of myself and just complementing them on their gameplay and their hard work... that in itself will go a long way.
I was so excited to read rekruls post... because it really opens up people's minds especially the 20 and younger crowd we have here because alot of them dont know what its like to earn their own dollar and most of what they say is just newb ish... (Im 26, Married, And have a Great job) ... but I can see how the koreans act exactly how he potrays them for example look at Tossgirls most recent interview about how she cried when she lost to IdRA (Koreans really look at Foreigners as inferior to them..... but i can also see them opening up to someone they can communicate with.
All in all i say if you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to be a successfull pro-gamer... 1) Learn Basic Language of the country your going 2) Be freaking Beyond GoSu 3) Wait till starcraft 2 comes out before you make the move if its SC that your going for. 4) Have a decent bank account of your own... these are things people really need to look at!!
Have fun and GG
Am.23)Jehuty aka O-MeGaMerc ICCUPID
lol.
That's great you have a good job and a wife. Can you teach us life, because we are ignorant kids? Maybe I can pm you ICCUPID and you explain me what I have to do to be succesfull also.
Seriously...
That's amazing how everybody knows better than ret what is good and what is bad for him. If he has to do mistakes in his life, he will learn from it. This patronizing attitude doesn't help.
You wanna know what amazes me ..... apparently people dont know how to read on this web site .... Tell me where in my post do i speak about RET?? do i even mention his NAME?? This was a GENERAL post to those who in the FUTURE want to try to be progamers ... then it would be in their best interest to learn the language of the country they are going to. And if you would READ IdrA's replay to my original post you will see that i explained to him that i WAS NOT speaking about RET i was speaking just in GENERAL.
Did i claim im a philosopher...? Did i say you all need to listen to me ...? I was stating my opinion and WHAT I WOULD DO!! then gave basic advice to people who are serious about gaming! Im not an expert, my suggestions were to the TL population on a specific topic.. and its one i believe MOST in this community would agree with... Wanna gain some respect?? MAYBE LEARN THE LANGUAGE .... Wanna have communication?? MAYBE LEARN THE LANGUAGE ... Wanna have a shot at taking TOSSGIRL out to dinner?? MAYBE LEARN THE LANGUAGE!!
I got advice to you.... Learn how to read !!! Im doing a class on Internet post 101 starts January 1st ... Maybe you should consider joining
Personally I wouldn't go if I wasn't allowed to take classes. Ret should have said: "Ill go but I have these requests. If they aren't met, it isn't worth it for me to go."
On December 30 2009 03:11 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 30 2009 01:48 AM.23)Jehuty wrote: I personally think that anybody who wants to go to a different country and be a professional progamer or whatever would be wise enough to learn the basics of the language .... I mean i understand certain circumstances but lets be real... if you somewhat remotely know another country's language people will be more open to speak with you because of the fact you can communicate with them. There will obviously be a culture barrier but communication can break most barrier's.... Imagine you go to Korea and know how to speak the basic language or the basic terms to be a progamer... dont you think they would respect the fact that you are trying to be a team player by learning their language that way you can communicate with them and maybe win over their favor since you seem to want to know about them more... if i could speak korean and im an already outgoing person.. i would be there trying to make them laugh by making a fool of myself and just complementing them on their gameplay and their hard work... that in itself will go a long way.
I was so excited to read rekruls post... because it really opens up people's minds especially the 20 and younger crowd we have here because alot of them dont know what its like to earn their own dollar and most of what they say is just newb ish... (Im 26, Married, And have a Great job) ... but I can see how the koreans act exactly how he potrays them for example look at Tossgirls most recent interview about how she cried when she lost to IdRA (Koreans really look at Foreigners as inferior to them..... but i can also see them opening up to someone they can communicate with.
All in all i say if you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to be a successfull pro-gamer... 1) Learn Basic Language of the country your going 2) Be freaking Beyond GoSu 3) Wait till starcraft 2 comes out before you make the move if its SC that your going for. 4) Have a decent bank account of your own... these are things people really need to look at!!
Have fun and GG
Am.23)Jehuty aka O-MeGaMerc ICCUPID
lol.
That's great you have a good job and a wife. Can you teach us life, because we are ignorant kids? Maybe I can pm you ICCUPID and you explain me what I have to do to be succesfull also.
Seriously...
That's amazing how everybody knows better than ret what is good and what is bad for him. If he has to do mistakes in his life, he will learn from it. This patronizing attitude doesn't help.
I got advice to you.... Learn how to read !!! Im doing a class on Internet post 101 starts January 1st ... Maybe you should consider joining
On December 30 2009 03:11 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 30 2009 01:48 AM.23)Jehuty wrote: I personally think that anybody who wants to go to a different country and be a professional progamer or whatever would be wise enough to learn the basics of the language .... I mean i understand certain circumstances but lets be real... if you somewhat remotely know another country's language people will be more open to speak with you because of the fact you can communicate with them. There will obviously be a culture barrier but communication can break most barrier's.... Imagine you go to Korea and know how to speak the basic language or the basic terms to be a progamer... dont you think they would respect the fact that you are trying to be a team player by learning their language that way you can communicate with them and maybe win over their favor since you seem to want to know about them more... if i could speak korean and im an already outgoing person.. i would be there trying to make them laugh by making a fool of myself and just complementing them on their gameplay and their hard work... that in itself will go a long way.
I was so excited to read rekruls post... because it really opens up people's minds especially the 20 and younger crowd we have here because alot of them dont know what its like to earn their own dollar and most of what they say is just newb ish... (Im 26, Married, And have a Great job) ... but I can see how the koreans act exactly how he potrays them for example look at Tossgirls most recent interview about how she cried when she lost to IdRA (Koreans really look at Foreigners as inferior to them..... but i can also see them opening up to someone they can communicate with.
All in all i say if you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to be a successfull pro-gamer... 1) Learn Basic Language of the country your going 2) Be freaking Beyond GoSu 3) Wait till starcraft 2 comes out before you make the move if its SC that your going for. 4) Have a decent bank account of your own... these are things people really need to look at!!
Have fun and GG
Am.23)Jehuty aka O-MeGaMerc ICCUPID
lol.
That's great you have a good job and a wife. Can you teach us life, because we are ignorant kids? Maybe I can pm you ICCUPID and you explain me what I have to do to be succesfull also.
Seriously...
That's amazing how everybody knows better than ret what is good and what is bad for him. If he has to do mistakes in his life, he will learn from it. This patronizing attitude doesn't help.
You wanna know what amazes me ..... apparently people dont know how to read on this web site .... Tell me where in my post do i speak about RET?? do i even mention his NAME?? This was a GENERAL post to those who in the FUTURE want to try to be progamers ... then it would be in their best interest to learn the language of the country they are going to. And if you would READ IdrA's replay to my original post you will see that i explained to him that i WAS NOT speaking about RET i was speaking just in GENERAL.
Did i claim im a philosopher...? Did i say you all need to listen to me ...? I was stating my opinion and WHAT I WOULD DO!! then gave basic advice to people who are serious about gaming! Im not an expert, my suggestions were to the TL population on a specific topic.. and its one i believe MOST in this community would agree with... Wanna gain some respect?? MAYBE LEARN THE LANGUAGE .... Wanna have communication?? MAYBE LEARN THE LANGUAGE ... Wanna have a shot at taking TOSSGIRL out to dinner?? MAYBE LEARN THE LANGUAGE!!
I got advice to you.... Learn how to read !!! Im doing a class on Internet post 101 starts January 1st ... Maybe you should consider joining
Have FUN GG
AM.23)Jehuty A.K.A O-MeGaMeRc ICCUP ID
Yeah good point. This thread is about ret and how he didn't make it in estro's house. Why post in a thread about ret with a post that supposedly has nothing to do about him? Are you a progamer? Do you have any background in esports? No? So why do you think you have any kind of authority to tell other people what to do? Your advice means nothing, especially since you're a sub-100 post noob. Foreigners are inferior to Korean progamers, who have the support system of a team behind them, and even many Korean amateurs. They are naturally disadvantaged by being unable to speak Korean in a game in which most of the professional leagues and tournaments are played in Korea or are dominated by Koreans. Protip: Try not to tell other people to learn a language when yours is just awful. Are you really a teacher? Because you are pretty bad at using capitalization and apostrophes.
And we can see your name at the top of your post, anyone who signs their post is a stupid douche on par with people who feel an overwhelming desire to post FISRST!$%!$!%#@^@ on new topics. Also, you're bad at Starcraft.
On December 30 2009 03:21 Glaucus wrote: Was Rekrul even in Korea during the time Ret was there? Did Rekrul ever meet Ret?
Rekrul is a failed poker player. What's different from being a failed progamer? Rekrul got lucky and won a lot yet he wasted all of it on stupid stuff. Yeah he had a good time, I am sure. But Rekrul is one of the worst examples one cat give to others.
Rekrul was just waiting for Ret to fail and then to get his attention. He's such a bad person online.
"failed poker player"
Define please, I would definitely not consider someone to be a failure if he can support himself well enough so he can live a wealthy life thanks to poker. (and no he did not just hit one score, he has had very good success in cash games from what I've gathered.)
And fyi. Rekrul lives in korea, so yeah he has been there simultaneously with Ret. =p
Seriously even if Rekrul may be arrogant and this might affect people's views of him, he really is one of the most knowledgeable TLers when it comes to StarCraft pro-gaming, not many foreigners have experienced it like he has.
On December 30 2009 03:21 Glaucus wrote: Was Rekrul even in Korea during the time Ret was there? Did Rekrul ever meet Ret?
Rekrul is a failed poker player. What's different from being a failed progamer? Rekrul got lucky and won a lot yet he wasted all of it on stupid stuff. Yeah he had a good time, I am sure. But Rekrul is one of the worst examples one cat give to others.
Rekrul was just waiting for Ret to fail and then to get his attention. He's such a bad person online.
You know nothing of what you speak. Why is it Rek's posts always bring out every person who thinks they know shit enough to write an autobiography of Rek's life?
He went back to San Diego. He still has San Diego as his location.
Even during his biggest winnings he was in debt because he won his money with loaned cash. Maybe he won in cash games, maybe he didn't. No one can verify that. We do know that he had big losing streaks as well. He admitted himself he got lazy and stopped practicing.
On December 30 2009 03:46 Slaughter wrote: ....always bring out every person who thinks they know shit enough to write an autobiography of Rek's life?
TL is his autobiography. He comes here to brag every once in a while. Remember that boji car? He wanted to buy a car that could get him laid with the .01% prettiest females. Yet he didn't understand girls like men with expensive cars because that means money which means they have power. Poker players have zero power so they aren't attractive to woman. Rekrul doesn't understand woman.
And in the end he had to admit he couldn't afford it anyway. So it was one big shameful lie.
On December 30 2009 03:49 Glaucus wrote: He went back to San Diego. He still has San Diego as his location.
Even during his biggest winnings he was in debt because he won his money with loaned cash. Maybe he won in cash games, maybe he didn't. No one can verify that. We do know that he had big losing streaks as well. He admitted himself he got lazy and stopped practicing.
You seem to have no idea how the poker world works, please do your homework before doing personal attacks.
btw. he changed his location quite a while ago, after that he went back to Korea and now is going back to USA as far as I know.
On December 30 2009 03:49 Glaucus wrote: He went back to San Diego. He still has San Diego as his location.
Even during his biggest winnings he was in debt because he won his money with loaned cash. Maybe he won in cash games, maybe he didn't. No one can verify that. We do know that he had big losing streaks as well. He admitted himself he got lazy and stopped practicing.
On December 30 2009 03:46 Slaughter wrote: ....always bring out every person who thinks they know shit enough to write an autobiography of Rek's life?
TL is his autobiography. He comes here to brag every once in a while. Remember that boji car? He wanted to buy a car that could get him laid with the .01% prettiest females. Yet he didn't understand girls like men with expensive cars because that means money which means they have power. Poker players have zero power so they aren't attractive to woman. Rekrul doesn't understand woman.
And in the end he had to admit he couldn't afford it anyway. So it was one big shameful lie.
I happen to enjoy rekrul's threads so why don't you piss off? Thanks.
On December 30 2009 03:52 Puosu wrote: You seem to have no idea how the poker world works, please do your homework before doing personal attacks.
Less idea than Rekrul does, that's for sure. But if I said something that's wrong you failed to point it out.
Don't tell me Rekrul can win tournaments using someone else's money and keep 100%. Even if they are friends, that's not how the power world works. They may be generous, but it's not charity. And business is business, even with friends. Otherwise you go broke yourself.
Every time a foreigenrs fails in Korea Rekrul comes out to bash them. According to Draco it's because he failed himself too and he can't stand seeing others succeed.
On December 30 2009 03:52 Puosu wrote: You seem to have no idea how the poker world works, please do your homework before doing personal attacks.
Less idea than Rekrul does, that's for sure. But if I said something that's wrong you failed to point it out.
Don't tell me Rekrul can win tournaments using someone else's money and keep 100%. Even if they are friends, that's not how the power world works. They may be generous, but it's not charity. And business is business, even with friends. Otherwise you go broke yourself.
Every time a foreigenrs fails in Korea Rekrul comes out to bash them. According to Draco it's because he failed himself too and he can't stand seeing others succeed.
Eh well I'm a poker player myself as well.
This "loaning" you talk of, is staking. And that basically means that when a person buys a certain percentage of you they get a certain percentage of what ever you happen to win, obviously this means that only the most skilled players get regularly staked because nobody wants to stake a losing player, this alone should point out in the direction of Rekrul being a very skilled individual. Many professionals buy in to big tournaments in this way because tournaments have huge variance (luck is a big factor).
Most money that standard cash game players make does not come from tournaments either, Rekrul isn't even a tournament player but he won his heads-up bracelet off cash game experience where its obviously hard to tell how well he has done, but from what can be seen he isn't doing too bad.
On December 30 2009 03:11 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 30 2009 01:48 AM.23)Jehuty wrote: I personally think that anybody who wants to go to a different country and be a professional progamer or whatever would be wise enough to learn the basics of the language .... I mean i understand certain circumstances but lets be real... if you somewhat remotely know another country's language people will be more open to speak with you because of the fact you can communicate with them. There will obviously be a culture barrier but communication can break most barrier's.... Imagine you go to Korea and know how to speak the basic language or the basic terms to be a progamer... dont you think they would respect the fact that you are trying to be a team player by learning their language that way you can communicate with them and maybe win over their favor since you seem to want to know about them more... if i could speak korean and im an already outgoing person.. i would be there trying to make them laugh by making a fool of myself and just complementing them on their gameplay and their hard work... that in itself will go a long way.
I was so excited to read rekruls post... because it really opens up people's minds especially the 20 and younger crowd we have here because alot of them dont know what its like to earn their own dollar and most of what they say is just newb ish... (Im 26, Married, And have a Great job) ... but I can see how the koreans act exactly how he potrays them for example look at Tossgirls most recent interview about how she cried when she lost to IdRA (Koreans really look at Foreigners as inferior to them..... but i can also see them opening up to someone they can communicate with.
All in all i say if you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to be a successfull pro-gamer... 1) Learn Basic Language of the country your going 2) Be freaking Beyond GoSu 3) Wait till starcraft 2 comes out before you make the move if its SC that your going for. 4) Have a decent bank account of your own... these are things people really need to look at!!
Have fun and GG
Am.23)Jehuty aka O-MeGaMerc ICCUPID
lol.
That's great you have a good job and a wife. Can you teach us life, because we are ignorant kids? Maybe I can pm you ICCUPID and you explain me what I have to do to be succesfull also.
Seriously...
That's amazing how everybody knows better than ret what is good and what is bad for him. If he has to do mistakes in his life, he will learn from it. This patronizing attitude doesn't help.
You wanna know what amazes me ..... apparently people dont know how to read on this web site .... Tell me where in my post do i speak about RET?? do i even mention his NAME?? This was a GENERAL post to those who in the FUTURE want to try to be progamers ... then it would be in their best interest to learn the language of the country they are going to. And if you would READ IdrA's replay to my original post you will see that i explained to him that i WAS NOT speaking about RET i was speaking just in GENERAL.
Did i claim im a philosopher...? Did i say you all need to listen to me ...? I was stating my opinion and WHAT I WOULD DO!! then gave basic advice to people who are serious about gaming! Im not an expert, my suggestions were to the TL population on a specific topic.. and its one i believe MOST in this community would agree with... Wanna gain some respect?? MAYBE LEARN THE LANGUAGE .... Wanna have communication?? MAYBE LEARN THE LANGUAGE ... Wanna have a shot at taking TOSSGIRL out to dinner?? MAYBE LEARN THE LANGUAGE!!
I got advice to you.... Learn how to read !!! Im doing a class on Internet post 101 starts January 1st ... Maybe you should consider joining
Have FUN GG
AM.23)Jehuty A.K.A O-MeGaMeRc ICCUP ID
Yeah good point. This thread is about ret and how he didn't make it in estro's house. Why post in a thread about ret with a post that supposedly has nothing to do about him? Are you a progamer? Do you have any background in esports? No? So why do you think you have any kind of authority to tell other people what to do? Your advice means nothing, especially since you're a sub-100 post noob. Foreigners are inferior to Korean progamers, who have the support system of a team behind them, and even many Korean amateurs. They are naturally disadvantaged by being unable to speak Korean in a game in which most of the professional leagues and tournaments are played in Korea or are dominated by Koreans. Protip: Try not to tell other people to learn a language when yours is just awful. Are you really a teacher? Because you are pretty bad at using capitalization and apostrophes.
And we can see your name at the top of your post, anyone who signs their post is a stupid douche on par with people who feel an overwhelming desire to post FISRST!$%!$!%#@^@ on new topics. Also, you're bad at Starcraft.
Sigh.... must i guide you by the hands children? Maybe i shouldn't use alot of words.
1) You bash me for my opinion and what i think people should do if they consider turning pro. So your basically saying nobody should have an opinion... ? Correct?
2) I have under 100 posts because i refuse to include myself in many of the newb people/conversations that i have to explain myself 100 times to in order for them to understand what im saying.
3) I suck at starcraft but i love the game and like to keep up to date the current games ... so you saying im bad at starcraft means nothing. But i would put money that you would dodge if i asked for 1v1.
Question? Do people think they would fair off better learning the korean language before going to the country ? Or not learning it and going straight in?
Because my whole point was just learning a language... dont know what was so hard to understand..
Btw in the 2nd part of this video (http://www.scforall.com/sctv/sc_tv01.asp?mNum=s01) Idra tells what's most important if foreigners want to go to Korea. I assume anyone who plans to go to Korea in the future better starts following his advice now.
Edit: I can't get a working link, just search for "CJ_Idra`s first interview while at the team workshop" on SCForall.
On December 30 2009 03:49 Glaucus wrote: He went back to San Diego. He still has San Diego as his location.
Even during his biggest winnings he was in debt because he won his money with loaned cash. Maybe he won in cash games, maybe he didn't. No one can verify that. We do know that he had big losing streaks as well. He admitted himself he got lazy and stopped practicing.
On December 30 2009 03:46 Slaughter wrote: ....always bring out every person who thinks they know shit enough to write an autobiography of Rek's life?
TL is his autobiography. He comes here to brag every once in a while. Remember that boji car? He wanted to buy a car that could get him laid with the .01% prettiest females. Yet he didn't understand girls like men with expensive cars because that means money which means they have power. Poker players have zero power so they aren't attractive to woman. Rekrul doesn't understand woman.
And in the end he had to admit he couldn't afford it anyway. So it was one big shameful lie.
He's been in Korea for 2 months and you have literally no idea what you are babbling about. Take a walk.
"I wanna tell ret how to live his life" "NO! You're wrong. I wanna tell him what to do!" Ret: "anyone care what I think?" "Silence. Here's what you will do..."
On December 30 2009 03:11 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 30 2009 01:48 AM.23)Jehuty wrote: I personally think that anybody who wants to go to a different country and be a professional progamer or whatever would be wise enough to learn the basics of the language .... I mean i understand certain circumstances but lets be real... if you somewhat remotely know another country's language people will be more open to speak with you because of the fact you can communicate with them. There will obviously be a culture barrier but communication can break most barrier's.... Imagine you go to Korea and know how to speak the basic language or the basic terms to be a progamer... dont you think they would respect the fact that you are trying to be a team player by learning their language that way you can communicate with them and maybe win over their favor since you seem to want to know about them more... if i could speak korean and im an already outgoing person.. i would be there trying to make them laugh by making a fool of myself and just complementing them on their gameplay and their hard work... that in itself will go a long way.
I was so excited to read rekruls post... because it really opens up people's minds especially the 20 and younger crowd we have here because alot of them dont know what its like to earn their own dollar and most of what they say is just newb ish... (Im 26, Married, And have a Great job) ... but I can see how the koreans act exactly how he potrays them for example look at Tossgirls most recent interview about how she cried when she lost to IdRA (Koreans really look at Foreigners as inferior to them..... but i can also see them opening up to someone they can communicate with.
All in all i say if you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to be a successfull pro-gamer... 1) Learn Basic Language of the country your going 2) Be freaking Beyond GoSu 3) Wait till starcraft 2 comes out before you make the move if its SC that your going for. 4) Have a decent bank account of your own... these are things people really need to look at!!
Have fun and GG
Am.23)Jehuty aka O-MeGaMerc ICCUPID
lol.
That's great you have a good job and a wife. Can you teach us life, because we are ignorant kids? Maybe I can pm you ICCUPID and you explain me what I have to do to be succesfull also.
Seriously...
That's amazing how everybody knows better than ret what is good and what is bad for him. If he has to do mistakes in his life, he will learn from it. This patronizing attitude doesn't help.
You wanna know what amazes me ..... apparently people dont know how to read on this web site .... Tell me where in my post do i speak about RET?? do i even mention his NAME?? This was a GENERAL post to those who in the FUTURE want to try to be progamers ... then it would be in their best interest to learn the language of the country they are going to. And if you would READ IdrA's replay to my original post you will see that i explained to him that i WAS NOT speaking about RET i was speaking just in GENERAL.
Did i claim im a philosopher...? Did i say you all need to listen to me ...? I was stating my opinion and WHAT I WOULD DO!! then gave basic advice to people who are serious about gaming! Im not an expert, my suggestions were to the TL population on a specific topic.. and its one i believe MOST in this community would agree with... Wanna gain some respect?? MAYBE LEARN THE LANGUAGE .... Wanna have communication?? MAYBE LEARN THE LANGUAGE ... Wanna have a shot at taking TOSSGIRL out to dinner?? MAYBE LEARN THE LANGUAGE!!
I got advice to you.... Learn how to read !!! Im doing a class on Internet post 101 starts January 1st ... Maybe you should consider joining
Have FUN GG
AM.23)Jehuty A.K.A O-MeGaMeRc ICCUP ID
Yeah good point. This thread is about ret and how he didn't make it in estro's house. Why post in a thread about ret with a post that supposedly has nothing to do about him? Are you a progamer? Do you have any background in esports? No? So why do you think you have any kind of authority to tell other people what to do? Your advice means nothing, especially since you're a sub-100 post noob. Foreigners are inferior to Korean progamers, who have the support system of a team behind them, and even many Korean amateurs. They are naturally disadvantaged by being unable to speak Korean in a game in which most of the professional leagues and tournaments are played in Korea or are dominated by Koreans. Protip: Try not to tell other people to learn a language when yours is just awful. Are you really a teacher? Because you are pretty bad at using capitalization and apostrophes.
And we can see your name at the top of your post, anyone who signs their post is a stupid douche on par with people who feel an overwhelming desire to post FISRST!$%!$!%#@^@ on new topics. Also, you're bad at Starcraft.
Sigh.... must i guide you by the hands children? Maybe i shouldn't use alot of words.
1) You bash me for my opinion and what i think people should do if they consider turning pro. So your basically saying nobody should have an opinion... ? Correct?
2) I have under 100 posts because i refuse to include myself in many of the newb people/conversations that i have to explain myself 100 times to in order for them to understand what im saying.
3) I suck at starcraft but i love the game and like to keep up to date the current games ... so you saying im bad at starcraft means nothing. But i would put money that you would dodge if i asked for 1v1.
Question? Do people think they would fair off better learning the korean language before going to the country ? Or not learning it and going straight in?
Because my whole point was just learning a language... dont know what was so hard to understand..
GEEZ
Yes you should learn the language before going to a new country. In many of these particular situations that is not a reasonable option.
On December 30 2009 04:16 vnlegend wrote: "I wanna tell ret how to live his life" "NO! You're wrong. I wanna tell him what to do!" Ret: "anyone care what I think?" "Silence. Here's what you will do..."
On December 30 2009 03:11 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 30 2009 01:48 AM.23)Jehuty wrote: I personally think that anybody who wants to go to a different country and be a professional progamer or whatever would be wise enough to learn the basics of the language .... I mean i understand certain circumstances but lets be real... if you somewhat remotely know another country's language people will be more open to speak with you because of the fact you can communicate with them. There will obviously be a culture barrier but communication can break most barrier's.... Imagine you go to Korea and know how to speak the basic language or the basic terms to be a progamer... dont you think they would respect the fact that you are trying to be a team player by learning their language that way you can communicate with them and maybe win over their favor since you seem to want to know about them more... if i could speak korean and im an already outgoing person.. i would be there trying to make them laugh by making a fool of myself and just complementing them on their gameplay and their hard work... that in itself will go a long way.
I was so excited to read rekruls post... because it really opens up people's minds especially the 20 and younger crowd we have here because alot of them dont know what its like to earn their own dollar and most of what they say is just newb ish... (Im 26, Married, And have a Great job) ... but I can see how the koreans act exactly how he potrays them for example look at Tossgirls most recent interview about how she cried when she lost to IdRA (Koreans really look at Foreigners as inferior to them..... but i can also see them opening up to someone they can communicate with.
All in all i say if you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to be a successfull pro-gamer... 1) Learn Basic Language of the country your going 2) Be freaking Beyond GoSu 3) Wait till starcraft 2 comes out before you make the move if its SC that your going for. 4) Have a decent bank account of your own... these are things people really need to look at!!
Have fun and GG
Am.23)Jehuty aka O-MeGaMerc ICCUPID
lol.
That's great you have a good job and a wife. Can you teach us life, because we are ignorant kids? Maybe I can pm you ICCUPID and you explain me what I have to do to be succesfull also.
Seriously...
That's amazing how everybody knows better than ret what is good and what is bad for him. If he has to do mistakes in his life, he will learn from it. This patronizing attitude doesn't help.
You wanna know what amazes me ..... apparently people dont know how to read on this web site .... Tell me where in my post do i speak about RET?? do i even mention his NAME?? This was a GENERAL post to those who in the FUTURE want to try to be progamers ... then it would be in their best interest to learn the language of the country they are going to. And if you would READ IdrA's replay to my original post you will see that i explained to him that i WAS NOT speaking about RET i was speaking just in GENERAL.
Did i claim im a philosopher...? Did i say you all need to listen to me ...? I was stating my opinion and WHAT I WOULD DO!! then gave basic advice to people who are serious about gaming! Im not an expert, my suggestions were to the TL population on a specific topic.. and its one i believe MOST in this community would agree with... Wanna gain some respect?? MAYBE LEARN THE LANGUAGE .... Wanna have communication?? MAYBE LEARN THE LANGUAGE ... Wanna have a shot at taking TOSSGIRL out to dinner?? MAYBE LEARN THE LANGUAGE!!
I got advice to you.... Learn how to read !!! Im doing a class on Internet post 101 starts January 1st ... Maybe you should consider joining
Have FUN GG
AM.23)Jehuty A.K.A O-MeGaMeRc ICCUP ID
My post was divided in two. First half was about you and your douchebagery. You come and say that you know life because you have a wife and a good job and how cool you are because you are 27 and succesful, you know what it is to "earn your own dollars", and you will teach us what life is and what progaming is about. Wtf, man? Wtf? Seriously. That's really funny.
Now, exactly after this "seriously", I talked about all people on this thread coming with a patronizing attitude, with knowing what is good and bad for ret as if they knew life better than him. If you are not one of these ones, good for you.
So I wonder who doesn't know how to read on this forum. You know what paragraph are for? No you don't. They are used to make a new point.
You are a little ridiculous, you know? :-) "MAYBE LEARN THE LANGUAGE" six hundred times in a row when you fail to understand what I have written, and all this cap letters makes you look like the guy who know life and is so succesfull but can't even control himself from raging on a Starcraft forum.
How did you say? Oh yeah. gl hf. So nerdy. Hahahahaha :-)
Edit: wtf tossgirl? My god. Buy a brain. Or something equivalent.
On December 30 2009 03:11 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 30 2009 01:48 AM.23)Jehuty wrote: I personally think that anybody who wants to go to a different country and be a professional progamer or whatever would be wise enough to learn the basics of the language .... I mean i understand certain circumstances but lets be real... if you somewhat remotely know another country's language people will be more open to speak with you because of the fact you can communicate with them. There will obviously be a culture barrier but communication can break most barrier's.... Imagine you go to Korea and know how to speak the basic language or the basic terms to be a progamer... dont you think they would respect the fact that you are trying to be a team player by learning their language that way you can communicate with them and maybe win over their favor since you seem to want to know about them more... if i could speak korean and im an already outgoing person.. i would be there trying to make them laugh by making a fool of myself and just complementing them on their gameplay and their hard work... that in itself will go a long way.
I was so excited to read rekruls post... because it really opens up people's minds especially the 20 and younger crowd we have here because alot of them dont know what its like to earn their own dollar and most of what they say is just newb ish... (Im 26, Married, And have a Great job) ... but I can see how the koreans act exactly how he potrays them for example look at Tossgirls most recent interview about how she cried when she lost to IdRA (Koreans really look at Foreigners as inferior to them..... but i can also see them opening up to someone they can communicate with.
All in all i say if you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to be a successfull pro-gamer... 1) Learn Basic Language of the country your going 2) Be freaking Beyond GoSu 3) Wait till starcraft 2 comes out before you make the move if its SC that your going for. 4) Have a decent bank account of your own... these are things people really need to look at!!
Have fun and GG
Am.23)Jehuty aka O-MeGaMerc ICCUPID
lol.
That's great you have a good job and a wife. Can you teach us life, because we are ignorant kids? Maybe I can pm you ICCUPID and you explain me what I have to do to be succesfull also.
Seriously...
That's amazing how everybody knows better than ret what is good and what is bad for him. If he has to do mistakes in his life, he will learn from it. This patronizing attitude doesn't help.
You wanna know what amazes me ..... apparently people dont know how to read on this web site .... Tell me where in my post do i speak about RET?? do i even mention his NAME?? This was a GENERAL post to those who in the FUTURE want to try to be progamers ... then it would be in their best interest to learn the language of the country they are going to. And if you would READ IdrA's replay to my original post you will see that i explained to him that i WAS NOT speaking about RET i was speaking just in GENERAL.
Did i claim im a philosopher...? Did i say you all need to listen to me ...? I was stating my opinion and WHAT I WOULD DO!! then gave basic advice to people who are serious about gaming! Im not an expert, my suggestions were to the TL population on a specific topic.. and its one i believe MOST in this community would agree with... Wanna gain some respect?? MAYBE LEARN THE LANGUAGE .... Wanna have communication?? MAYBE LEARN THE LANGUAGE ... Wanna have a shot at taking TOSSGIRL out to dinner?? MAYBE LEARN THE LANGUAGE!!
I got advice to you.... Learn how to read !!! Im doing a class on Internet post 101 starts January 1st ... Maybe you should consider joining
Have FUN GG
AM.23)Jehuty A.K.A O-MeGaMeRc ICCUP ID
Yeah good point. This thread is about ret and how he didn't make it in estro's house. Why post in a thread about ret with a post that supposedly has nothing to do about him? Are you a progamer? Do you have any background in esports? No? So why do you think you have any kind of authority to tell other people what to do? Your advice means nothing, especially since you're a sub-100 post noob. Foreigners are inferior to Korean progamers, who have the support system of a team behind them, and even many Korean amateurs. They are naturally disadvantaged by being unable to speak Korean in a game in which most of the professional leagues and tournaments are played in Korea or are dominated by Koreans. Protip: Try not to tell other people to learn a language when yours is just awful. Are you really a teacher? Because you are pretty bad at using capitalization and apostrophes.
And we can see your name at the top of your post, anyone who signs their post is a stupid douche on par with people who feel an overwhelming desire to post FISRST!$%!$!%#@^@ on new topics. Also, you're bad at Starcraft.
Sigh.... must i guide you by the hands children? Maybe i shouldn't use alot of words.
1) You bash me for my opinion and what i think people should do if they consider turning pro. So your basically saying nobody should have an opinion... ? Correct?
2) I have under 100 posts because i refuse to include myself in many of the newb people/conversations that i have to explain myself 100 times to in order for them to understand what im saying.
3) I suck at starcraft but i love the game and like to keep up to date the current games ... so you saying im bad at starcraft means nothing. But i would put money that you would dodge if i asked for 1v1.
Question? Do people think they would fair off better learning the korean language before going to the country ? Or not learning it and going straight in?
Because my whole point was just learning a language... dont know what was so hard to understand..
GEEZ
Sigh...It's hard to come off as a pretentious prick when your command of the English language seems to be very tenuous at best.
1)Your opinion would be worth little even if you had many posts, but it's worth even less since you don't.
2)You being bad at starcraft had nothing to do with it, it was a sidenote letting you know that putting it in your pointless signature isn't a good idea. And obviously I would dodge you, why should I waste my time playing a person who is currently 10-22 D when I'm c- already?
3) I understand your point and I agree, perhaps ret should have learned the language before going. My point was that you have no right to be making that kind of point when your English is awful, especially for someone who has "United States" as his location. Hypocrite.
Lol, this dumb 26 year old married kid with a great job thinks he's something? Writing freaking long posts just to say it's important to learn the language of the country where you're going to pursue a professional job. Great advice, thanks.
The fact this kind of people marry and procreate bugs me. Back in topic, I would like to see Ret in Korea for one more Courage so he can practice better his zvz. He's there and Artosis is very supportive towards foreigners going there, giving another shot with better preparation wouldn't be stupid.
It disguist me how some people talk about this like it's their own lives. I understand that people somewhat put their own aspirations and dreams unto players like Ret, Nony or Idra but there is a limit to how obnoxious you can get.
Ret has chosen this path himself. He lives it. He will obviously make the decisions that he feels he want to take in context of his own life. How are you guys going to sit around and tell him what to do / not do or how he's stupid for even attempting this or w/e when you don't even know him on a personal level?
People need to take a step back and realise that Ret is not an ambassador for white people in korean progaming. Give the guy the respect that he deserves for even attempting such a feat. Whatever he decides will be right for him.
It's the same thing with Idra. People have been giving him bullshit about not progressing in the speed that their delusional minds want him to. Leave the guy alone. Support him if you like him. Ignore him if you don't. What's the point of degrading someone for something that takes more balls than most people that ever visited this site will ever have?
The thing is, people feel entitled to their own opinions. You can't stop them from giving it. But ret giving up this early isn't an indication that he really took everything carefully into account before making a decision. It also reflects badly on other foreigners who want to go into progaming as well.
Great read. I'm wondering one thing though : what about Elky back in the days ? Wasn't he fitting just good in the Korean pro-gamer scene/life ? Was he simply more skilled, did the times change ? Maybe it is a bad comparison... but I'd like to know.
On December 30 2009 05:24 StarBrift wrote: It disguist me how some people talk about this like it's their own lives. I understand that people somewhat put their own aspirations and dreams unto players like Ret, Nony or Idra but there is a limit to how obnoxious you can get.
Ret has chosen this path himself. He lives it. He will obviously make the decisions that he feels he want to take in context of his own life. How are you guys going to sit around and tell him what to do / not do or how he's stupid for even attempting this or w/e when you don't even know him on a personal level?
People need to take a step back and realise that Ret is not an ambassador for white people in korean progaming. Give the guy the respect that he deserves for even attempting such a feat. Whatever he decides will be right for him.
It's the same thing with Idra. People have been giving him bullshit about not progressing in the speed that their delusional minds want him to. Leave the guy alone. Support him if you like him. Ignore him if you don't. What's the point of degrading someone for something that takes more balls than most people that ever visited this site will ever have?
Problem is, that's what being a "star" is all about. Stars make people live by subtitute. That's the reason why people get so passionate about guys they shouldn't care about. Who give a shit about Jaedong? I don't mean his playing, but the real guy?
You can't dissociate the star system from theses silly comments. People think they owe a little bit of ret. Same way that her fan owe a little bit of Britney Spears, a little bit that they buy every time they read an interview or buy one of her cds. That's as bad as that.
On December 30 2009 05:34 Odeyuken wrote: Great read. I'm wondering one thing though : what about Elky back in the days ? Wasn't he fitting just good in the Korean pro-gamer scene/life ? Was he simply more skilled, did the times change ? Maybe it is a bad comparison... but I'd like to know.
ElkY and Giyom were part of the team but they didn't live with us at the team apartment, they had their own apartment that was nice and they paid for because they were very successful Starcraft players and were paid salaries in excess of 100,000$ a year and could afford it. Though they were my friends I idolized them. ElkY came over to the practice apartment one day though to practice strategies for an upcoming TV game he was going to have but once the manager left he loaded up PokerStars and started playing the 5/10 blinds 1000$ buyin tables. He was winning and losing pots up to 3,000$ in size left and right. I knew he kinda kept up with poker but I had no idea he had make it to this level. I was watching this guy win and lose amounts greater than my net worth with a few clicks here and there. One hand there was 1250$ in the pot and ElkY had queen-high on an ace high board which means he had jack shit. He had 800$ left and he bet it all. I was thinking "WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS GUY CRAZY HE'S FUCKING DUMB." But I respected him too much to open my mouth and voice my worthless opinion. After ElkY bet all-in the guy folded and ElkY won the 1250$ in the middle profiting 625$ just by having the balls to run a big bluff. I was like "Holy shit nice man when did you get so good?" He replied "haha poker is all I have been doing, fuck Starcraft haha."
Yeah, you associate yourself with a team or a player. If they win, you go on an emotional high, just as you become dejected if they lose. It's winning by proxy basically and they are there to represent you. It's like when the Yankees win the World Series and everyone in New York (except Mets fans LOL) get excited and have a ticker tape parade and stuff. Without this kind of vested interest, there's no point in watching a sport.
On December 30 2009 05:25 ghostWriter wrote: The thing is, people feel entitled to their own opinions. You can't stop them from giving it. But ret giving up this early isn't an indication that he really took everything carefully into account before making a decision. It also reflects badly on other foreigners who want to go into progaming as well.
If someone actually thinks worse of foreigners because of anything Ret has done then that's due to them being incredibly narrow minded or flat out presumptious about the situation. These people are bandwagoners and will follow anything that a large enough number of people says. Trying to appease them is nothing short of idiocy.
Do you seriously believe that Ret should have considered that some narrow minded korean person would discriminate against other white people if he failed? Do you honestly believe that is a reasonable demand to put on a person who wants to pursue his dream?
On December 30 2009 05:24 StarBrift wrote: It disguist me how some people talk about this like it's their own lives. I understand that people somewhat put their own aspirations and dreams unto players like Ret, Nony or Idra but there is a limit to how obnoxious you can get.
Ret has chosen this path himself. He lives it. He will obviously make the decisions that he feels he want to take in context of his own life. How are you guys going to sit around and tell him what to do / not do or how he's stupid for even attempting this or w/e when you don't even know him on a personal level?
People need to take a step back and realise that Ret is not an ambassador for white people in korean progaming. Give the guy the respect that he deserves for even attempting such a feat. Whatever he decides will be right for him.
It's the same thing with Idra. People have been giving him bullshit about not progressing in the speed that their delusional minds want him to. Leave the guy alone. Support him if you like him. Ignore him if you don't. What's the point of degrading someone for something that takes more balls than most people that ever visited this site will ever have?
Problem is, that's what being a "star" is all about. Stars make people live by subtitute. That's the reason why people get so passionate about guys they shouldn't care about. Who give a shit about Jaedong? I don't mean his playing, but the real guy?
You can't dissociate the star system from theses silly comments. People think they owe a little bit of ret. Same way that her fan owe a little bit of Britney Spears, a little bit that they buy every time they read an interview or buy one of her cds. That's as bad as that.
Thanks for explaining "the star system" so throroughly. I'm well aware of the thoughts behind this. Unfortunately what you are explaining is a bunch of people deluding themselves. They have no right to change the life of the person the worship.
I myself revere players like Flash and Jaedong. I am glad when they win and pissed off when they lose soemtimes. But I wouldn't try to meddle in their personal affairs or critisize the way they live their lives. That's just pathetic.
It is only slave work if you don't have the desire to be the best. You better have a passion for the game like Jordan had for basketball or Tiger Woods for golf (They train harder than anyone in their sport). Of course your going to train day and night. You train day and night to be the best you can. Isn't that why you go to Korea? You expect to have a life when you go to Korea to become a progamer? Competition is for BW is top in Korea. You better outwork EVERYONE. That is why you go to Korea. It's WAR.
I hope Ret wasn't stupid enough to think that he was going to just casually train when he went to Korea.
Also, i think there are some gamers out there who actually play 24/7 at home with no life. If you have the potential why not go for it?
On December 30 2009 05:45 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 30 2009 05:24 StarBrift wrote: It disguist me how some people talk about this like it's their own lives. I understand that people somewhat put their own aspirations and dreams unto players like Ret, Nony or Idra but there is a limit to how obnoxious you can get.
Ret has chosen this path himself. He lives it. He will obviously make the decisions that he feels he want to take in context of his own life. How are you guys going to sit around and tell him what to do / not do or how he's stupid for even attempting this or w/e when you don't even know him on a personal level?
People need to take a step back and realise that Ret is not an ambassador for white people in korean progaming. Give the guy the respect that he deserves for even attempting such a feat. Whatever he decides will be right for him.
It's the same thing with Idra. People have been giving him bullshit about not progressing in the speed that their delusional minds want him to. Leave the guy alone. Support him if you like him. Ignore him if you don't. What's the point of degrading someone for something that takes more balls than most people that ever visited this site will ever have?
Problem is, that's what being a "star" is all about. Stars make people live by subtitute. That's the reason why people get so passionate about guys they shouldn't care about. Who give a shit about Jaedong? I don't mean his playing, but the real guy?
You can't dissociate the star system from theses silly comments. People think they owe a little bit of ret. Same way that her fan owe a little bit of Britney Spears, a little bit that they buy every time they read an interview or buy one of her cds. That's as bad as that.
Thanks for explaining "the star system" so throroughly. I'm well aware of the thoughts behind this. Unfortunately what you are explaining is a bunch of people deluding themselves. They have no right to change the life of the person the worship.
I myself revere players like Flash and Jaedong. I am glad when they win and pissed off when they lose soemtimes. But I wouldn't try to meddle in their personal affairs or critisize the way they live their lives. That's just pathetic.
Sure. However, you can question the will of becoming a star.
A sportman or a pop star who start giving interviews / selling his image / doing commercials etc etc etc, decides to become part of the Spectacular Society, to become a merchandise. If you make publicity of your life, and if you sell yourself, you know what you are getting into. Britney Spears decided to become a product, an image, a virtual self for people deluding themselves, as you say, and she decided that because it makes a lot of money. That's what one should answer to the "Leave Britney Alone" shit. She got what she wanted.
Look at all theses interviews / videos / pictures / merchandised stuffs of all kind done with Jaedong or Bisu. That's not Starcraft. This whole iconic stuff is just money, for making people dream about something which is made of nothing.
Now, I don't think ret has much to do with that, except that the way people behave is the other face of his fame. Ret is becoming an icon in this community, people who don't know him for shit start to feel close to him, and that sucks for him.
On December 30 2009 07:48 rusty23456 wrote: It is only slave work if you don't have the desire to be the best. You better have a passion for the game like Jordan had for basketball or Tiger Woods for golf (They train harder than anyone in their sport). Of course your going to train day and night. You train day and night to be the best you can. Isn't that why you go to Korea? You expect to have a life when you go to Korea to become a progamer? Competition is for BW is top in Korea. You better outwork EVERYONE. That is why you go to Korea. It's WAR.
I hope Ret wasn't stupid enough to think that he was going to just casually train when he went to Korea.
Also, i think there are some gamers out there who actually play 24/7 at home with no life. If you have the potential why not go for it?
pretty sure he didn't think that.
Pretty sure you don't know the actual cultural issues that went down which resulted in him leaving Estro (apart from Estro members not playing against him, we all know that now.)
Pretty sure you're a troll.
By the way since you brought up Jordan, no greatest of all time athlete has ever became what he is through slave-work.
The korean system is effective at making sure that anyone who steps into the scene doesn't turn out to be a waste of talent due to lack of practice, somewhat similar to the system that was set up in the Soviet Union to develop athletes. It is NOT the system that develops the Michael Jordans.
On December 30 2009 05:25 ghostWriter wrote: The thing is, people feel entitled to their own opinions. You can't stop them from giving it. But ret giving up this early isn't an indication that he really took everything carefully into account before making a decision. It also reflects badly on other foreigners who want to go into progaming as well.
If someone actually thinks worse of foreigners because of anything Ret has done then that's due to them being incredibly narrow minded or flat out presumptious about the situation. These people are bandwagoners and will follow anything that a large enough number of people says. Trying to appease them is nothing short of idiocy.
Do you seriously believe that Ret should have considered that some narrow minded korean person would discriminate against other white people if he failed? Do you honestly believe that is a reasonable demand to put on a person who wants to pursue his dream?
As I said, this argument makes me sick.
I was talking about the people who run the teams, including the coaches and the managers, not to mention the gamers themselves. The most recent foreigners on a team that I can think of is Idra, Nony and ret, so ret going to Estro means that he and Idra are the only representatives for foreign gamers. Since they have an opportunity to live with other gamers, obviously the Koreans will make judgments on what they see. How many more foreigners will they be willing to take when Nony and ret washed out so quickly? And obviously I can't expect Ret to consider this when he went there, but the fact is that it is a factor. I'm not putting the demand on him, it's already there. Don't pretend you don't ever make judgment calls on entire other groups of people based on the actions of a few individuals. It's impossible not to, our brains are hardwired to think like that, no matter how politically correct you try to be.
On December 30 2009 04:35 Hot_Bid wrote: Oh snap D vs C- trash talk -_-
I'd rip his C- Trash into 3
He wont play me cause he will lose that rank easy ... wanna BO3?? Oh wait u already dodged
And i already made my point apparently so i am no longer gonna talk about the subject
If anybody wants a piece im right here otherwise man up and game.
Right your 10-22 d scares the shit out of me.
Are you really 26 and married? Because you seem to have the emotional stability and the mental acuity of someone half your age.
check his profile pic. definitely looks like a mature well spoken adult.
HAHAHA
"Hey mom! Look at me, I'm Spiderman!"
"Also, I wear sunglasses inside like a true douchebag."
Hey, I occasionally do this, and I realize I may look like a douchebag, but they're prescription, and I can't see shit without them. I'll generally either wear my regular glasses, or my sunglasses, without carrying the other around, so if I chose to wear my sunglasses, and I need to see something, you're damn right I'll be using them inside.
Sorry but could someone sum up the situation is Ret going back home? I think he should join name house or something to prove himself, one last shot? Maybe they will be less hostile.
On December 30 2009 04:35 Hot_Bid wrote: Oh snap D vs C- trash talk -_-
I'd rip his C- Trash into 3
He wont play me cause he will lose that rank easy ... wanna BO3?? Oh wait u already dodged
And i already made my point apparently so i am no longer gonna talk about the subject
If anybody wants a piece im right here otherwise man up and game.
Right your 10-22 d scares the shit out of me.
Are you really 26 and married? Because you seem to have the emotional stability and the mental acuity of someone half your age.
check his profile pic. definitely looks like a mature well spoken adult.
HAHAHA
"Hey mom! Look at me, I'm Spiderman!"
"Also, I wear sunglasses inside like a true douchebag."
Hey, I occasionally do this, and I realize I may look like a douchebag, but they're prescription, and I can't see shit without them. I'll generally either wear my regular glasses, or my sunglasses, without carrying the other around, so if I chose to wear my sunglasses, and I need to see something, you're damn right I'll be using them inside.
Sorry. But do you take pictures of yourself while wearing them and jumping around with your hands in the spiderman slinging his web around position when you pretend to be 26 years old and married?
For my own selfish pleasure, I want to see Ret in Korea forever.
However, realistically, just one more courage plzzzz He 3-0ed the guy who won the first one, and lost because of ZvZ in the second one, just one more try for the fan's pleasure
On December 30 2009 04:35 Hot_Bid wrote: Oh snap D vs C- trash talk -_-
I'd rip his C- Trash into 3
He wont play me cause he will lose that rank easy ... wanna BO3?? Oh wait u already dodged
And i already made my point apparently so i am no longer gonna talk about the subject
If anybody wants a piece im right here otherwise man up and game.
Right your 10-22 d scares the shit out of me.
Are you really 26 and married? Because you seem to have the emotional stability and the mental acuity of someone half your age.
check his profile pic. definitely looks like a mature well spoken adult.
HAHAHA
"Hey mom! Look at me, I'm Spiderman!"
"Also, I wear sunglasses inside like a true douchebag."
Hey, I occasionally do this, and I realize I may look like a douchebag, but they're prescription, and I can't see shit without them. I'll generally either wear my regular glasses, or my sunglasses, without carrying the other around, so if I chose to wear my sunglasses, and I need to see something, you're damn right I'll be using them inside.
Sorry. But do you take pictures of yourself while wearing them and jumping around with your hands in the spiderman slinging his web around position when you pretend to be 26 years old and married?
On December 29 2009 04:01 ret wrote: I definately still believe it can be done in Korea.
I don't want to make excuses or anything, but there are guys who won their courage group this past weekend that I have played a lot with online and I had huge winning records on them. (T/P users). And I know other foreigners would do well vs them also.
But for me personally, age is a huge factor like some people here pointed out. If I was younger, I wouldn't even think twice about what to do and just keep trying my best and eventually win courage and just keep trying. But yes I am quite old, so wasting time would be bad, and with SC2 coming out I don't know how feasible it is to stay. I think someone like Kolll (very young, already very good, and not yet ruined by all the freedom you get after high school :p) would succeed here quite easily. I absolutely hate the fact that I 'failed' however, and it just hurts more to see players worse than you do well. Maybe I should try one more time D:
I just can't believe that after all rekrul said and after all that happened to you, you still come here to brag about some wins over people who won the courage and say that you are a better player than idra and it makes you sad to see him doing well...
You should be amazed that idra is doing well, you should copy every aspect of idra's life. he is not doing well just because he is good at SC, there is a lot of factors behind...
read read and re-read rekrul post.
You are white, a foreigner, don't speak korean, is a "big" person, you don't play ZvZ and you don't have the korean personality...
also the fact that you won one game against idra doesn't mean you are a better player.
to be a better player you need consistent results, accomplishment, discipline, patience to sit and repeat the same strategy over and over to become a robot, etc.
idra was the most hated person in the entire community, to become what he is now after all the hate... its not because his trolling is fun...
Did you even read what Ret wrote? Wtf are you trollin about? Bragging? He even said he's not making excuses just lets us know that he can beat those guys. Nony could and he wasnt as dominant amongst foreigners as Ret is now.
His post has abolutely nothing to do with Idra, he doesnt even mentions him. You don't know shit about what Red or Idra does in Korea, nor do you know their personalities, yet you declare what Ret should do.
Who the hell is talking about that game? Not Ret for sure! Ret has consistent results amongst foreginers. Idra did not have too much until like half a year ago, when he already spent a lot of time in Korea. Ret has dicipline, he's not a 16 years old korean kid, but this doesnt mean he's impatinet.
Idra's BM has nothing to do with his development/skill. He plays too well, and when he loses he talks trash. You try to suggest that he plays well BECAUSE he talks shit and thinks eveybody is a skilles newbie (i exaggerate a bit )?
????
I'm not trolling at all.
you completely misunderstood all I wrote... please, re-read my post and rekrul's cause what you are talking is completely opposite to what I said.
I said that idra was hated and then he earned respect with in-game accomplishment, it was a huge come back, from the most hated person to one of the most respected players.
all I said about idra and ret was 100% following what rekrul said in his main post. about their personality, what they have done, etc. (re-read rekrul's post, I don't want to copy/paste it here)
after all that happened, ret came here to say that he won against courage winners and is sad cause someone worse than him is doing well, but not him. tell me who is doing well in korea? its idra... there is no other foreigner in korea atm. oh come on...
if you want to show us that you are good, don't do that saying it, do it by accomplish something. it is basic.
after all that happened, ret came here to say that he won against courage winners and is sad cause someone worse than him is doing well, but not him. tell me who is doing well in korea? its idra... there is no other foreigner in korea atm. oh come on...
He obviously meant the courage winners that he had huge winning records against, why did he have to be talking about a foreigner?
really nice read gives u a good insight how hard progaming life is. I would really like to see ret beating courgage and so on but like rekrul said if u have to become such a cold robot to have succes, i think its not worth that.
Lol at anyone that thinks Rekrul is supporting himself in a foreign country and balling out of control by playing poker. Come on give me a break. All his posts about balling out of control in the most exclusive clubs in Korea. Meeting former presidents of countries. Asking which $100k or w/e car he should buy so he can bang the most elite girls in the world. How do you people buy into this crap? How do all of you seem to have inside info into Rekruls poker statistics? Are you sitting there with him while hes winning thousands every month to supprt himself in a foreign counrty? No. Are you believing what this clown posts on a starcraft forum over and over and over again? Yes. I guess if someone says something on the internet a million times there will be some people that believe it like a mindless donkey. Be realistic. The guy prolly has money wired from his mommy and daddy on a monthly basis. I'm glad some people have common sense and can see through him.
On topic. I think Ret should have expected to put in much more effort into this whole thing. He should have known that this wasn't going to be easy. There have been others that have gone and failed. It seems like he should have known what to expect a bit. I think ret will win courage if he simply attempts it enough times. Expecting to win it in 1 try is a bit cocky. He should expect to have to make about 5-10 attempts. I think too many people are rushing to Korea without the dedication that it actually takes. I hope that the next foreigner that goes has the work ethic and strength to ride it out. Idra seems to be the best example of someone that has what it takes there. I'm very impressed with Idra. He seems to fit in perfectly. I'm glad to see Idra is doing well. I'm glad his bm is mostly only an online thing. I've heard he is actually quite mannered in person. I'm curious as to how he has come so far without learning korean though? Or maybe im mistaken and he knows the basics now? It seems like he is a very analytical person and likes going over games. I'm also curious as to how well he can do this with his practice partners at CJ?
rekrul the situation you described.. is similiar to alot of other sports? i mean obviously if you want to be the best at anything you have to practice alot, respect the coach, etc. you didn't really say anything we don't already know.
On December 30 2009 04:35 Hot_Bid wrote: Oh snap D vs C- trash talk -_-
I'd rip his C- Trash into 3
He wont play me cause he will lose that rank easy ... wanna BO3?? Oh wait u already dodged
And i already made my point apparently so i am no longer gonna talk about the subject
If anybody wants a piece im right here otherwise man up and game.
Right your 10-22 d scares the shit out of me.
Are you really 26 and married? Because you seem to have the emotional stability and the mental acuity of someone half your age.
check his profile pic. definitely looks like a mature well spoken adult.
HAHAHA
"Hey mom! Look at me, I'm Spiderman!"
"Also, I wear sunglasses inside like a true douchebag."
Hey, I occasionally do this, and I realize I may look like a douchebag, but they're prescription, and I can't see shit without them. I'll generally either wear my regular glasses, or my sunglasses, without carrying the other around, so if I chose to wear my sunglasses, and I need to see something, you're damn right I'll be using them inside.
Sorry. But do you take pictures of yourself while wearing them and jumping around with your hands in the spiderman slinging his web around position when you pretend to be 26 years old and married?
On December 30 2009 04:35 Hot_Bid wrote: Oh snap D vs C- trash talk -_-
I'd rip his C- Trash into 3
He wont play me cause he will lose that rank easy ... wanna BO3?? Oh wait u already dodged
And i already made my point apparently so i am no longer gonna talk about the subject
If anybody wants a piece im right here otherwise man up and game.
Right your 10-22 d scares the shit out of me.
Are you really 26 and married? Because you seem to have the emotional stability and the mental acuity of someone half your age.
check his profile pic. definitely looks like a mature well spoken adult.
HAHAHA
"Hey mom! Look at me, I'm Spiderman!"
"Also, I wear sunglasses inside like a true douchebag."
Hey, I occasionally do this, and I realize I may look like a douchebag, but they're prescription, and I can't see shit without them. I'll generally either wear my regular glasses, or my sunglasses, without carrying the other around, so if I chose to wear my sunglasses, and I need to see something, you're damn right I'll be using them inside.
Sorry. But do you take pictures of yourself while wearing them and jumping around with your hands in the spiderman slinging his web around position when you pretend to be 26 years old and married?
Yes, while in my underwear. ^^
One thousand apologies.
On December 30 2009 09:37 shafiru wrote: Lol @ the D vs C- argument, hilarious.
For my own selfish pleasure, I want to see Ret in Korea forever.
However, realistically, just one more courage plzzzz He 3-0ed the guy who won the first one, and lost because of ZvZ in the second one, just one more try for the fan's pleasure
pretty please with a huge fucking cherry on top
I'm not a c-, I just happen to be c- right now! GOD
And I think that Idra is a douchebag with no online manners, but that's just the pot calling the kettle black. I do applaud his abilities, as well as his dedication and I look forward to watching any future success he may have.
While reading through this thread I thought of so many things I could write to pass some wisdom or clear things up - like Koreans being xenophobic and stuff. But in the end this is more or less a waste of time. It is all so freakin' easy: don't be a smart-ass on things you have never personally experienced or at least have fundamental experience on related subjects. If you do not work for your own living don't tell people which job they should or should not choose. If you are not at an age where marriage is (or could be) an option for you don't give advises on how people should plan their lives. If you have never been to Korea don't tell the world how Koreans generally behave.
Sorry for being somewhat offT but this is the closest I could get onT today.
On December 30 2009 05:25 ghostWriter wrote: The thing is, people feel entitled to their own opinions. You can't stop them from giving it. But ret giving up this early isn't an indication that he really took everything carefully into account before making a decision. It also reflects badly on other foreigners who want to go into progaming as well.
If someone actually thinks worse of foreigners because of anything Ret has done then that's due to them being incredibly narrow minded or flat out presumptious about the situation. These people are bandwagoners and will follow anything that a large enough number of people says. Trying to appease them is nothing short of idiocy.
Do you seriously believe that Ret should have considered that some narrow minded korean person would discriminate against other white people if he failed? Do you honestly believe that is a reasonable demand to put on a person who wants to pursue his dream?
As I said, this argument makes me sick.
I was talking about the people who run the teams, including the coaches and the managers, not to mention the gamers themselves. The most recent foreigners on a team that I can think of is Idra, Nony and ret, so ret going to Estro means that he and Idra are the only representatives for foreign gamers. Since they have an opportunity to live with other gamers, obviously the Koreans will make judgments on what they see. How many more foreigners will they be willing to take when Nony and ret washed out so quickly? And obviously I can't expect Ret to consider this when he went there, but the fact is that it is a factor. I'm not putting the demand on him, it's already there. Don't pretend you don't ever make judgment calls on entire other groups of people based on the actions of a few individuals. It's impossible not to, our brains are hardwired to think like that, no matter how politically correct you try to be.
If you judge billions of people based on what 3 other people that look kinda like them did then you are the definition of a judgemental douchebag. Just because you treat people badly does not mean the rest of the world does. Even if they did that doesn't make that kind of behavior somehow desirable. Being a jackass is not something good regardless of how many people are.
If coaches would judge all other foreigner players for all enternity based on 2 courage matches then what are you supposed to do? They are bound to be judgemental whatever you do. Even discussing this as if Ret somehow is responsible for shit like that is ridiculous.
I know you never admit you're wrong ever on this forum. But please do take a step back and look at your posts this time.
EPT
It's really a shame he's been out of the eStro house for awhile now, and only really practicing at home/ICCUP (as far as I understand it), as it's not really giving him more of an advantage for TSL2, since he may be playing more, but it's not with the pros. 
![[image loading]](http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/3468/244787-reality_game_super.jpg)
(not really)
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