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On December 29 2009 08:22 Scooge wrote:
Korean racism is well known I thought. They treat others extremely badly, especially those they consider lower than them like poorer Asian countries, blacks, etc.. Ret should be thankful he's at least white. Koreans, because of their history with America via the Korean war, and their respect for Anglo / European achievements, treat whites much, much better than other foreigners. With all this widely known, any foreigner who moves to Korea and is somehow shocked only has themself to blame.
I don't really like to put it that way - when you put it that way, it sounds racist itself. It has nothing to do with koreans really. It's the culture, and it's the same in Japan and (I think) China. Nothing wrong with disliking that aspect of these cultures, there are things to dislike about any culture (for example materialism and individuality in american culture).
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lol man you guys act like racism is some taboo that only happens in Korea. That shit is everywhere... you can find racism in the grocery store up the street in the US.
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On December 29 2009 08:33 errol1001 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2009 08:22 Scooge wrote:
Korean racism is well known I thought. They treat others extremely badly, especially those they consider lower than them like poorer Asian countries, blacks, etc.. Ret should be thankful he's at least white. Koreans, because of their history with America via the Korean war, and their respect for Anglo / European achievements, treat whites much, much better than other foreigners. With all this widely known, any foreigner who moves to Korea and is somehow shocked only has themself to blame. I don't really like to put it that way - when you put it that way, it sounds racist itself. It has nothing to do with koreans really. It's the culture, and it's the same in Japan and (I think) China. Nothing wrong with disliking that aspect of these cultures, there are things to dislike about any culture (for example materialism and individuality in american culture).
China or Japan being racist doesn't excuse Korea. I'm not saying EVERY single Korean is racist. I thought it was implied that we're speaking in general. The country as a whole treats foreigners, especially those not white, extremely badly. In the US or other western countries, there's a shame in being racist. People know it's wrong, and yes, sometimes they still do it. It's not like that in Korea. Koreans are so ethnocentric they have no problem treating a migrant worker from Bangladesh like he's dirt or abusing an Indian employee. They see nothing wrong in that. Again, in general.
Edit:
Amnesty International report on the status of migrant workers in South Korea for those interested:
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA25/001/2009/en/8bc729f6-39d7-4ce9-aeab-86eea173451c/asa250012009en.pdf
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Rekrul, stop complaining. You're pathetic.
Look at it this way: I'm a C level player, but I would be B+ if I was such a nerdy, stupid slave as all you B+ players! That's a ridiculous argument, and most people would laugh at me for being such a pathetic newb.
But when B+/A- players say it about competing in a community of Olympic level players, it's sage-like and poignant. Should be considered bullshit instead.
Edit:
Also, being French or Dutch or some other European country doesn't make you a part of a race. Unless you're ascribing by the old Nazi idea of the "German" race. Koreans are xenophobic you say? I'm in a huge Korean clan on Asia server, and I've met many friends. Some dislike Americans, most are interested in Americans, some are fascinated with Americans. Now I would say that the people who dislike Americans are either being presumptuous and dont understand America, or they are so Asian/selfless/mystic that they genuinely dislike America. Then there's the people who are interested, because they are intelligent and curious people. Then there's the great ones who understand what makes (or maybe I should say, made) America great and wish they could be a part of it.
Now if you look at Europe, it has nothing to offer any of these three groups:
The Asian/selfless/mystic ones will flat out hate Europeans, because Europeans are usually some form of pluralist and/or skeptic, with some occasional religious/mysitic nonsense thrown in.
The middle group might be somewhat friendly to Europeans--until the European's pluralism and skepticism start to show. At this point, most young, thoughtful Koreans, raised either on the notions of hard work, loyalty to country or duty to family, or all of the above, will be repulsed by the mindless pluralism of a typical European youth. The thoughtful Korean will consider the relevance of an American way of life, albeit critically; but, no matter how patient, he will ultimately feel too disconnected from a typical European.
The third group will have a few laughs at the European, and then ultimately just ignore him. But the first two groups (especially the second) are far more common than this type.
Of course, any of these things can apply to any country. Many Americans are very European in their mindset, although usually with traces of the American sense of individuality and hard-work. I'm sure there are Africans who love Asian culture, American culture, Italian culture, Russian culture, etc. But I'm speaking on average, about the predominant trends.
It's not a matter of racism, because that term is completely inapplicable. Xenophobia is more of a Chinese or Eastern European trait, and I've never seen it out of Koreans. It's more selective than that, it's about ideas. This whole problem is about ideas. Ret, Nony, etc, wanted to have their cake and eat it too, they had different notions of how to succeed at SC, but wanted the Koreans (the one's with something to offer, mind you) to adjust to them. But that doesn't work. You can't be your partying, pretentious, casual self, and get all the benefits of dealing with someone who expects you to live up to standards through disciplined means.
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Koreans are nationalists and proud of their country, they haven't forgotten their periods of colonisation and war. They're not specifically "racist", but uneducated and xenophobic.
They believe in the purity of their blood and the racial discrimination is not mentionned in their legislation.
The protection of their foreign workers is close to unexistant, not to mention that you have to look like a corean to do your military service, there is a specific racist law.
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On December 29 2009 08:46 Scooge wrote:
I'm not saving EVERY SINGLE KOREAN is racist. lol it's easy to mistakenly read the sentence starting from the capitalized words.
I was like "Whoa, EVERY SINGLE KOREAN is racist?" Then I doubled back and read "I'm not saying".
Power of half-assed first glances.
Anyways, I don't expect Korea will be as foreigner friendly as other developed countries, until literally a hundred years from now, when globalization would force everyone to adapt accordingly.
Actually, it might get worse, if competition of dwindling resources fuel additional nationalism.
Back on topic, I hope Ret succeeds on his third try. He beat some of these winners before, so he definitely has the skill to win courage.
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On December 29 2009 04:01 ret wrote:
I absolutely hate the fact that I 'failed' however, and it just hurts more to see players worse than you do well. Maybe I should try one more time D:
Do it! 
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
why are random kids coming out of the woodwork saying i'm complaining? lol
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On December 29 2009 09:33 Rekrul wrote:
why are random kids coming out of the woodwork saying i'm complaining? lol
Because this is the retardnet and quite on the contrary to your belief - you're dreaming atm.
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On December 29 2009 05:50 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2009 03:30 StorkHwaiting wrote:On December 29 2009 03:27 ghostWriter wrote:On December 29 2009 03:24 StorkHwaiting wrote:On December 29 2009 03:18 ghostWriter wrote:On December 29 2009 03:10 1984 wrote:On December 29 2009 02:59 ghostWriter wrote:
Really Chill? You agree with that moron?
It might be hard to make a name for yourself in progaming, but there is no way that progaming is even close to being as competitive as medicine is. Ok, I really hope you're not mentally deficient, otherwise it's pointless to continue. Drop-out rate at medical schools is less than 10%, actually 10% was a major concern somewhere so it's usually even lower (you can google it). And then compare it to hordes of koreans who try to become progamers but very few of them succeed. Right except that medical schools weed out candidates based on whether or not they think that people will succeed. They also go out of their way to make sure that the people who want to go to medical school actually have a passion for it. This less than 10% comes from the people who claimed to have a passion for medicine AND showed that they have the ability to learn and keep up with the material during their college years. The 10% would be comparing the number of people who dropped out of medical school with the number of people who were on A team but didn't have many televised games yet and decided to quit playing or something like that. It's not even a parallel situation. The right one would be comparing the hordes of Koreans who try to become progamers to the hordes of students that try to get into medical school but don't succeed (most people drop the premed program of study because they can't even handle the college courses, never mind the classes that they would take in medical school), mostly because of low grades or a low test score. Perhaps you could make the argument that the two things are different skill sets and thus cannot be compared a la apples to oranges, but what you're claiming now is just wrong. Ie. I know several friends who are in med school now who scored over 90 percentile on their MCATs and LOVE SC and play it religiously yet are absolutely horrendous. And btw, getting into a top tier MFA Creative Writing program is literally 10x harder than getting into a top tier medical school by the acceptance/rejection ratio. acceptance/rejection ratio isn't the whole story, since you have to see what kinds of students are applying. And most people that know for a fact that they won't be accepted don't bother applying. Your little anecdote proves nothing, nor does your affirmative statement. Who cares if they play sc religiously? Playing something for fun is vastly different from playing something as your job, which you get paid for. So you think being a doctor is easier than getting on the New York Times Bestseller list with an original work of fiction? You are an idiot. I held myself back when I read your posts in "post a picture of you and your girlfriend thread" but your brain must be made out of brick. You decide that you thoroughly know the medical field and blindly state that a writing program is ten times harder. What the fuck? That claim has no basis whatsoever, especially considering that acceptance/rejection ratio does not directly relate to how "hard" it is to get in there. Your little story about your friends does not add to your argument either. ghostwriter's right. The comparison should be the horde of Koreans trying to become progamers to high school/college students who aspire to be doctors, but change to alternative career because they cannot compete with other pre-med students in science classes. And then you compare being a doctor to the highest success one can achieve as a writer. Lol. How about something like, finding a cure to a new disease to getting on the bestseller list? "I am not going to post pictures of me and my girlfriend because I actually *respect* her and don't want internet nerds fapping to her pics." Lol.
you're not a big reader are you..?
Being on the New York Times bestseller list doesn't mean that you've been succesful as a writer. It means that you're succesful as a buisinessman/woman. Or that you're already famous or writing about someone who's famous.. I'm extremely off-topic here, but I just hate that cynisism enshrined in common sense.
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"Random kids," said Rekrul. That's funny.
Well, because you are. And it's pathetic. So some of us "kids" (if I'm a kid, you must be 60 years old or something) thought it a good idea to say so. Koreans don't like Ret. Wah wah racists. That's not complaining of course. That's just plain old common sense!
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Lets fuckin face it people; Korea is, by western standards, pretty damn racist. Call it culture, call it xenophobia, but thats the bottom line. No matter how politically correct you want to be, how many analogies you want to use, or how carefully designed your euphemisms are, koreans are racists. Im not saying that racism is absent in the US/Euro zone. it's just that some countries are more racists than others. There is a reason why the observed frequency of football fans throwing bananas to black players is higher in say, Italy and Spain, than in Britain or France. Everything is relative. Everyone is equal but some are more equal than others. Every country is equally racist but some are more racist than others.
There are 2 types of racism, i'd say. Number 1 is just outright racism where you yell slurs at indonesian/pakistani/ppl from poor asian countries/blacks..etc.. in a fucking bus downtown Seoul NYTimes Article.
Number 2 is more applicable at Americans/whites/caucasians..etc.. while not exactly outright racism, i'd call it xenophobia. defined as "a dislike and/or fear of that which is unknown or different from oneself." Not as bad as number 1, but still clearly not an appropriate way to treat people.
In Ret's case, i don't know if xenophobia was a a determinant factor, but a lot of things just don't fucking make sense.
1. We're in 2009. Sc has been released 12 years ago. Progaming has been going on for a while. A few foreigners tried to become pros and with the exception of Idra (im excluding Grrrr..Elky..etc..because their era was way too early) they all went home because the working conditions were not adequate. Artosis is the most knowledgeable white dude in Korea when it comes to progaming AND he has mad connections AND he is pretty much the liaison between aspiring foreign pros and pro-teams. Now, is it fair to say that some major miscommunication occurred when Ret was negotiating with Estro to go to Korea? If he KNEW that his freaking teammates would be sure to totally ignore him and decline to play even just a few games with him, would he have accepted to go and accept the moronic fact; bah i guess im just gonna play iCCup. no big deal. (sorry to burst anyone's bubble but iccup-only type of training is lightyears away from pro-training). If NOT playing a foreign teammate is proper etiquette, why didn't guys like Artosis alert Ret before moving to Korea? Artosis knows exactly what happened to Nony and Draco..etc. Miscommunication or is Estro being suddenly xenophobic?
2. Ignoring this Dutch dude who lives in your Pro-House?! wtf. Progamers play an absurd amount of hours each day. From this, an intelligent person will conclude that an absurd amount of games is being played between each progamer. Now, pro-training tells us that after each games, it's always better if you go over your replays and you discuss strategy. Great. Does that mean that Ret HAS to be ignored since he can't participate in complex strategic discussions after each games? How about this, lets say Korean Progamer X plays 50 games a day. Is it reasonable for the Estro manager to ask him to play 48 games strictly against korean opponents and during the course of the day, to force him to play vs some dude from Holland since he's part of the team too. That way, this Korean Progamer X will be able to discuss strategy and go over replays 48 times. That's a 96% ratio. 4% of the time, he won't be able to discuss strategy because his english is too limited and the dude from Holland doesn't speak korean. But who cares since he's chobo anyways because he's not korean so it's pointless to discuss strategy with him. But since the same 2 games are expected from every team member, Ret will find himself playing 2 games times whatever the number of pro-koreans living in the house is. Which in a perfect world would add up to like 30 games a day. The rest of the time, he still has iCCup and he can fill in holes by analyzing replays. That's much closer to a real pro-training.
3. Are strategic discussions between Ret and coaches/managers/players etc.. totally fucking impossible? Give me a break. Not all korean progamers are totally unable to speak english. Even if it'll never be as deep as a fluent vs fluent strategic analysis, you can still work your way around it and and at least put a very minimal effort to have some sort of basic interaction. i mean, fucking units names are the same in both languages, a tank is a fuckin tank. a zergling is a fucking zerlings. Just say things; Jos! your timing push is tooooo late ..tooo late. or...vs Mech...more zerglings... your 3rd expo....tooooo soon... your defilers...tooo late..., always killllll reaver first!! etc... by getting used to it, both parties will get better at it. Discussions will be basic at first..but then both parties will get to know each other, Ret will pick up a few korean words along the way, and koreans should at least feel a bit excited since they can practice some english (hey its only the international lingua franca..so who cares) if you guys think that this can't be done, you should download the Mondragon vs Sea[Shield] replay on fighting spirit where Mondragon, Ret ...and some other foreigners talk with Sea Shield about football(soccer). again..im NOT saying every Estro member is as cool..as skilled, as handsome, as friendly..and as good in english as SeaShield..but it gives you an indication of what type of conversations are possible.
i dont know if he took his decision yet but honestly, i hope Ret stays for at least some time to really sort things out and to really decide if his dream is humanely possible or not. The ONLY way to do that is to first and foremost to TALK TO HWANNI, THE ESTRO MANAGER (that he himself described as "really nice guy"), AND TO EXPLAIN HIM HIS SITUATION AND HOW PLAYING ICCUP-ONLY IS ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT. and then to practice his fucking ass off. If he can survive in the most intensely competitive gaming circuit in the history of the universe, he'll be a monster when he comes back to Holland to pursue whatever endeavors he feels like. Everything else will feel like a piece of cake.
GL Jos!
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ive always wondered about racism in asia since to my understanding its far more homogenous at least in the sense of being "asian" (obviously there are ethnic groups and people from different countries etc) than a lot of western countries. I mean theres obviously the whitebread hillbillies in the USA and ull find stuff like that anywhere but i rarely see non asian people in asia at least on television as opposed to having pretty much everyone here in the US. Id kind of expect them to be more racist etc ;p Then again there are western movies and stuff so maybe youd think that would affect them too!
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On December 29 2009 10:16 intrudor wrote:
Everyone is equal but some are more equal than others.
I've heard this before, still: nice one
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Calgary25951 Posts
On December 29 2009 09:00 Attritive wrote:
Xenophobia is more of a Chinese or Eastern European trait, and I've never seen it out of Koreans. It's more selective than that, it's about ideas.
Okay, thanks for your enlightening Asia-Server-Korean-Clan knowledge.
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I really love how almost every time Rek posts, there is a flood of sub 50 post posters coming on here to throw their worthless 2 cents in or to flame him. Interesting how he brings out the best :D
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you kno wat racism is forgaylords.
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As a Korean-American who has never been to Korea, who has been born in America, who considers himself to be an American patriot, but who has been born to traditionally South Korean parents and is fully aware of the culture differences let me say:
1. YES, Koreans are racist.
2. YES, Americans are racist.
3. Are Koreans more racist than Americans? That, obviously cannot be determined.
4. YES, Koreans are afraid of people who are different.
5. YES, Americans are afraid of people who are different.
My point is, racism does exist. Racism exists EVERYWHERE. In the workplace, on the gaming scene. Even prostitutes are racist. Poker players are racist.
If ret experienced racism in Korea, that's very unfortunate. But don't shit on KOREA for it. Shit on RACISM. Because God knows, as a Korean, when I went down to the South, I was APPALLED to experience racism by my FELLOW PEOPLE, in the NAME OF THE COUNTRY I DEARLY LOVE.
Ultimately, as people and cultures are unique, so is racism. Racism by Koreans will not be the same by racism by Americans.
I must admit, I am a racist as well, at times. But the number of "stereotyping" posts and blogs on this site leads me to believe that many of you guys are racist too.
Too bad. But to those who this applies to, don't sit on your high horse, saying how Korea is bullshit because Koreans are racist--how could they do that to ret omg? If a Korean went to the Netherlands to work in a HIGHLY competitive atmosphere and asked for some bullshit, or did something stupid, then he would be ostracized in a second. I promise you.
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ret what you should do is stay in korea for another month or two, just practice 12+ hours a day on iccup, and try courage a couple more times. like others have pointed out a lot of people who win courage have had many many attempts at it. I think you should try a couple more times
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On December 29 2009 10:45 shotz wrote:
As a Korean-American who has never been to Korea, who has been born in America, who considers himself to be an American patriot, but who has been born to traditionally South Korean parents and is fully aware of the culture differences let me say:
1. YES, Koreans are racist.
2. YES, Americans are racist.
3. Are Koreans more racist than Americans? That, obviously cannot be determined.
4. YES, Koreans are afraid of people who are different.
5. YES, Americans are afraid of people who are different.
My point is, racism does exist. Racism exists EVERYWHERE. In the workplace, on the gaming scene. Even prostitutes are racist. Poker players are racist.
If ret experienced racism in Korea, that's very unfortunate. But don't shit on KOREA for it. Shit on RACISM. Because God knows, as a Korean, when I went down to the South, I was APPALLED to experience racism by my FELLOW PEOPLE, in the NAME OF THE COUNTRY I DEARLY LOVE.
Ultimately, as people and cultures are unique, so is racism. Racism by Koreans will not be the same by racism by Americans.
I must admit, I am a racist as well, at times. But the number of "stereotyping" posts and blogs on this site leads me to believe that many of you guys are racist too.
Too bad. But to those who this applies to, don't sit on your high horse, saying how Korea is bullshit because Koreans are racist--how could they do that to ret omg? If a Korean went to the Netherlands to work in a HIGHLY competitive atmosphere and asked for some bullshit, or did something stupid, then he would be ostracized in a second. I promise you.
Well im relieved that we now have a firm grasp on the obvious.
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EPT
