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On December 29 2009 04:23 InsideTheBox wrote:
I want to preface what I post with this; I love progaming and it has been/ is still very enjoyable as a spectator. That being said, I don't understand why anyone does it, especially foreigners going to Korea for SC. Yes you can do what you enjoy as a profession, but there are so many negative aspects to it. You won't be a progamer when you're 35, let alone those that fizzle out at 23, and then you're in Korea having spent the majority of your time on what "normal" people spend to pursue their careers/ education. Another huge factor is that it's an incredibly difficult job to get and once you get it you're sitting at a computer playing a VIDEO GAMMMMME for 16 hrs a day learning nothing else even remotely relevant to life. In my opinion, the opportunity cost alone should be enough to deter any foreigner from even attempting to go to Korea, and rightfully so. Now I sure as hell don't want Idra/Ret/whoever else to listen to me if all they want to do in life is play professional SC, but I just don't see the rationale. Someone enlighten me if possible.
Some people *enjoy* playing the game, and doing something you enjoy is a huge benefit that outweighs the opportunity cost (I'm obviously not saying this is case for everyone, and hence not many people take the progaming route of life). I guess somewhat fitting analogy would be attempting to become an NBA/NHL/NFL athlete?
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On December 29 2009 03:43 ghostWriter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2009 03:35 GreEny K wrote:On December 29 2009 03:30 StorkHwaiting wrote:On December 29 2009 03:27 ghostWriter wrote:On December 29 2009 03:24 StorkHwaiting wrote:On December 29 2009 03:18 ghostWriter wrote:On December 29 2009 03:10 1984 wrote:On December 29 2009 02:59 ghostWriter wrote:
Really Chill? You agree with that moron?
It might be hard to make a name for yourself in progaming, but there is no way that progaming is even close to being as competitive as medicine is. Ok, I really hope you're not mentally deficient, otherwise it's pointless to continue. Drop-out rate at medical schools is less than 10%, actually 10% was a major concern somewhere so it's usually even lower (you can google it). And then compare it to hordes of koreans who try to become progamers but very few of them succeed. Right except that medical schools weed out candidates based on whether or not they think that people will succeed. They also go out of their way to make sure that the people who want to go to medical school actually have a passion for it. This less than 10% comes from the people who claimed to have a passion for medicine AND showed that they have the ability to learn and keep up with the material during their college years. The 10% would be comparing the number of people who dropped out of medical school with the number of people who were on A team but didn't have many televised games yet and decided to quit playing or something like that. It's not even a parallel situation. The right one would be comparing the hordes of Koreans who try to become progamers to the hordes of students that try to get into medical school but don't succeed (most people drop the premed program of study because they can't even handle the college courses, never mind the classes that they would take in medical school), mostly because of low grades or a low test score. Perhaps you could make the argument that the two things are different skill sets and thus cannot be compared a la apples to oranges, but what you're claiming now is just wrong. Ie. I know several friends who are in med school now who scored over 90 percentile on their MCATs and LOVE SC and play it religiously yet are absolutely horrendous. And btw, getting into a top tier MFA Creative Writing program is literally 10x harder than getting into a top tier medical school by the acceptance/rejection ratio. acceptance/rejection ratio isn't the whole story, since you have to see what kinds of students are applying. And most people that know for a fact that they won't be accepted don't bother applying. Your little anecdote proves nothing, nor does your affirmative statement. Who cares if they play sc religiously? Playing something for fun is vastly different from playing something as your job, which you get paid for. So you think being a doctor is easier than getting on the New York Times Bestseller list with an original work of fiction? Just stop arguing with him, ive given up on it. He seems pretty hell-bent on being right and not accepting any other view. Yes because you not being a progamer nor a doctor gives you the ability to make qualitative judgments on both careers. Show nested quote +On December 29 2009 03:42 errol1001 wrote:
I'm not considering B level progamers when I talk about this. Maybe that's the point of confusion. But talking about how hard your life is doing residencies for 80 hours is really irrelevant. What does that have to do with talent? Yeah, it sucks, and yeah, most people won't want to do that. But again, nothing to do with talent. The talent I see involved with being a doctor is simply having a good memory. How much your life sucks doing residency or having to endure the boredom of memorizing stuff is really irrelevant.. I already said it requires more effort (indeed it requires a ton of effort). B level progamers are progamers too and you can't just discount them. The point about residencies was just to point out that the average doctor puts in many more hours than the average progamer into his profession. And what does talent have to do with progaming? For medicine, it's about problem solving, finding out what is actually wrong with the patient and curing them. Progaming is mostly about doing the same things over and over again, learning the counters to different build orders for different maps. Where's the talent in knowing that 12hatch is better than 12pool? This kind of knowledge comes from hours of playing games, repeating the same build orders over and over again to perfect them and seeing what counters them and what doesn't.
Wow... What you just said to me makes 0 sense... I am not taking either side, I was just telling him to stop arguing.
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Ret, if you want to stay and keep trying I think that's a commendable thing. This thread must be a difficult thing to read through, especially with the amount of bandwagoning going on...
Have you considered trying to stay until TSL2?
The last thing you want to be doing is digging yourself into a depressed hole where you view it as a personal failing. You clearly have enough skill to pass courage with time, and the last thing you should do is quit if you feel that you'll regret it 
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On December 29 2009 03:43 Glaucus wrote:
I am pretty sure 80% of the people have the intelligence to become a doctor. How is it hard? You have to memorize a ton of stuff. But it's light on math. Yeah it will take a lot of hours of studying. But most people could spend the hours and do it.
But yeah you need to be both a progamer and a doctor to have a valid opinion on this.
Honestly the only reason I didn't want to be a doctor is because I can't stand blood. Not sure what it is, I can stand to see my own or others as long as I know they will be ok (ex. in a fight.) But if i know they are gonna die eventually I cant take that...
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On December 29 2009 04:30 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2009 04:23 InsideTheBox wrote:
I want to preface what I post with this; I love progaming and it has been/ is still very enjoyable as a spectator. That being said, I don't understand why anyone does it, especially foreigners going to Korea for SC. Yes you can do what you enjoy as a profession, but there are so many negative aspects to it. You won't be a progamer when you're 35, let alone those that fizzle out at 23, and then you're in Korea having spent the majority of your time on what "normal" people spend to pursue their careers/ education. Another huge factor is that it's an incredibly difficult job to get and once you get it you're sitting at a computer playing a VIDEO GAMMMMME for 16 hrs a day learning nothing else even remotely relevant to life. In my opinion, the opportunity cost alone should be enough to deter any foreigner from even attempting to go to Korea, and rightfully so. Now I sure as hell don't want Idra/Ret/whoever else to listen to me if all they want to do in life is play professional SC, but I just don't see the rationale. Someone enlighten me if possible. Some people *enjoy* playing the game, and doing something you enjoy is a huge benefit that outweighs the opportunity cost (I'm obviously not saying this is case for everyone, and hence not many people take the progaming route of life). I guess somewhat fitting analogy would be attempting to become an NBA/NHL/NFL athlete?
Thats a terrible analogy because they dont have to spend as much time working on it, they usually get some sort of education while pursuing their dream, if they succeed they will make a lot of money, and they will have a long enough career so that they will be set for the rest of their lives. Also, they can pursue a somewhat normal life along side their professional lives.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On December 29 2009 04:35 Piy wrote:Ret, if you want to stay and keep trying I think that's a commendable thing. This thread must be a difficult thing to read through, especially with the amount of bandwagoning going on... Have you considered trying to stay until TSL2? The last thing you want to be doing is digging yourself into a depressed hole where you view it as a personal failing. You clearly have enough skill to pass courage with time, and the last thing you should do is quit if you feel that you'll regret it
theres nothing depressing about my post
living in artosis's cardboard box can be depressing tho
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On December 29 2009 02:23 gjg.instinct wrote:
Highly skeptical of the idea of Koreans being "xenophobic".
meh.
The doctor comments have to be trolls. Just one of many examples of ridiculous doctor hours are the 30+ hour shifts they force on residents(the number seems low). That's not talking about the consistently long hours through med school and being on call later in life.
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Calgary25974 Posts
On December 29 2009 04:23 InsideTheBox wrote:
I want to preface what I post with this; I love progaming and it has been/ is still very enjoyable as a spectator. That being said, I don't understand why anyone does it, especially foreigners going to Korea for SC. Yes you can do what you enjoy as a profession, but there are so many negative aspects to it. You won't be a progamer when you're 35, let alone those that fizzle out at 23, and then you're in Korea having spent the majority of your time on what "normal" people spend to pursue their careers/ education. Another huge factor is that it's an incredibly difficult job to get and once you get it you're sitting at a computer playing a VIDEO GAMMMMME for 16 hrs a day learning nothing else even remotely relevant to life. In my opinion, the opportunity cost alone should be enough to deter any foreigner from even attempting to go to Korea, and rightfully so. Now I sure as hell don't want Idra/Ret/whoever else to listen to me if all they want to do in life is play professional SC, but I just don't see the rationale. Someone enlighten me if possible.
Actually this experience can very quickly teach you a lot about life - specifically who you are, what you want and need, and where you really want to go. Things that are important that you will miss by drifting through normal life like everyone does. You make these stark realizations in moments of change.
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Calgary25974 Posts
On December 29 2009 04:49 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2009 04:35 Piy wrote:Ret, if you want to stay and keep trying I think that's a commendable thing. This thread must be a difficult thing to read through, especially with the amount of bandwagoning going on... Have you considered trying to stay until TSL2? The last thing you want to be doing is digging yourself into a depressed hole where you view it as a personal failing. You clearly have enough skill to pass courage with time, and the last thing you should do is quit if you feel that you'll regret it theres nothing depressing about my post living in artosis's cardboard box can be depressing tho
Whoa, whoa, whoa. A lot of my best nights in Korea started or ending in Artosis' house.
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Calgary25974 Posts
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On December 29 2009 02:55 1984 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2009 02:45 Chill wrote:On December 29 2009 02:41 SkytoM wrote:
To be a progamer is definitly A LOT harder than to be a doctor..
what is hard at beeing a doctor? Maybe i see it in that because i come from an academic family, but doctor is like lawyer. you chose it, study it and then with time, you're a doctor. nothing hard there. ? That argument is literally identical to a progamer. You choose it, study it, and with time you're a progamer. Nothing hard there. The main difference is competitiveness, it's insane in case of Korean SC and almost non-existent in medicine, at least compared to progaming. The point I'm trying to make is that becoming a progamer is more complex (i.e. not everybody will succeed no matter how much time they spend and how hard they try), while becoming a doctor is harder (the total amount of work and time spent is larger but if you're interested and not stupid you will be fine). The competition to become a doctor is many times greater than pro gaming, with absolutely no doubt whatsoever.
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I thereby curse the guy who started Doctor vs. Progamer discussion and also all of those who don't read the god damn thread before posting.
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On December 29 2009 04:01 ret wrote:
I definately still believe it can be done in Korea.
I don't want to make excuses or anything, but there are guys who won their courage group this past weekend that I have played a lot with online and I had huge winning records on them. (T/P users). And I know other foreigners would do well vs them also.
But for me personally, age is a huge factor like some people here pointed out. If I was younger, I wouldn't even think twice about what to do and just keep trying my best and eventually win courage and just keep trying. But yes I am quite old, so wasting time would be bad, and with SC2 coming out I don't know how feasible it is to stay. I think someone like Kolll (very young, already very good, and not yet ruined by all the freedom you get after high school :p) would succeed here quite easily. I absolutely hate the fact that I 'failed' however, and it just hurts more to see players worse than you do well. Maybe I should try one more time D:
whatever ur choice is ret, just make sure u won't look back and regret the decision u made, good luck and god bless...
On December 29 2009 04:49 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2009 04:35 Piy wrote:Ret, if you want to stay and keep trying I think that's a commendable thing. This thread must be a difficult thing to read through, especially with the amount of bandwagoning going on... Have you considered trying to stay until TSL2? The last thing you want to be doing is digging yourself into a depressed hole where you view it as a personal failing. You clearly have enough skill to pass courage with time, and the last thing you should do is quit if you feel that you'll regret it theres nothing depressing about my post living in artosis's cardboard box can be depressing tho
and there u go hustling money matches off the poor guy...
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Rekrul speaks so much sense in this.
Just switch it around. If it was an all european/american team and suddenly some random big ass asian comes on the team. He doesn't even play ZvZ and doesn't speak english. What would you do? Fuck I wouldn't play him unless he was really really good and I could learn from him by playing him w/o talking with him. But if it's 50-50 or 70-30 in my favor then forget about it.
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Thanks for the post rekrul, amazingly informative and I really had no idea how things work over there. It sounds like pro SC players train 5 times the amount of any other sport to have ever existed.. pretty crazy
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The amount of job comparisons in this thread when it has to do with Ret disgusts me. I just lost a ton of respect for TL x.x
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On December 29 2009 04:30 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2009 04:23 InsideTheBox wrote:
I want to preface what I post with this; I love progaming and it has been/ is still very enjoyable as a spectator. That being said, I don't understand why anyone does it, especially foreigners going to Korea for SC. Yes you can do what you enjoy as a profession, but there are so many negative aspects to it. You won't be a progamer when you're 35, let alone those that fizzle out at 23, and then you're in Korea having spent the majority of your time on what "normal" people spend to pursue their careers/ education. Another huge factor is that it's an incredibly difficult job to get and once you get it you're sitting at a computer playing a VIDEO GAMMMMME for 16 hrs a day learning nothing else even remotely relevant to life. In my opinion, the opportunity cost alone should be enough to deter any foreigner from even attempting to go to Korea, and rightfully so. Now I sure as hell don't want Idra/Ret/whoever else to listen to me if all they want to do in life is play professional SC, but I just don't see the rationale. Someone enlighten me if possible. Some people *enjoy* playing the game, and doing something you enjoy is a huge benefit that outweighs the opportunity cost (I'm obviously not saying this is case for everyone, and hence not many people take the progaming route of life). I guess somewhat fitting analogy would be attempting to become an NBA/NHL/NFL athlete?
i think one of the points in this discussion is social exceptance. I mean half the math questions in my gr 6 textbook were about sports. And when your older, your socially excepted, and its a cool thing to do, even if you were one of the lesser tier players, because it still shoewd dedication and what not. But the world right now does not see computer games as acceptable, and only recently was being a game designer a cool thing to do, as even women are getting those wii fit things.
If it came down to being the bomb everywhere I go, even if I sucked horribly at it, then id pick 24/7 hockey over 24/7 starcraft :/
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United States10774 Posts
On December 29 2009 03:30 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2009 03:27 ghostWriter wrote:On December 29 2009 03:24 StorkHwaiting wrote:On December 29 2009 03:18 ghostWriter wrote:On December 29 2009 03:10 1984 wrote:On December 29 2009 02:59 ghostWriter wrote:
Really Chill? You agree with that moron?
It might be hard to make a name for yourself in progaming, but there is no way that progaming is even close to being as competitive as medicine is. Ok, I really hope you're not mentally deficient, otherwise it's pointless to continue. Drop-out rate at medical schools is less than 10%, actually 10% was a major concern somewhere so it's usually even lower (you can google it). And then compare it to hordes of koreans who try to become progamers but very few of them succeed. Right except that medical schools weed out candidates based on whether or not they think that people will succeed. They also go out of their way to make sure that the people who want to go to medical school actually have a passion for it. This less than 10% comes from the people who claimed to have a passion for medicine AND showed that they have the ability to learn and keep up with the material during their college years. The 10% would be comparing the number of people who dropped out of medical school with the number of people who were on A team but didn't have many televised games yet and decided to quit playing or something like that. It's not even a parallel situation. The right one would be comparing the hordes of Koreans who try to become progamers to the hordes of students that try to get into medical school but don't succeed (most people drop the premed program of study because they can't even handle the college courses, never mind the classes that they would take in medical school), mostly because of low grades or a low test score. Perhaps you could make the argument that the two things are different skill sets and thus cannot be compared a la apples to oranges, but what you're claiming now is just wrong. Ie. I know several friends who are in med school now who scored over 90 percentile on their MCATs and LOVE SC and play it religiously yet are absolutely horrendous. And btw, getting into a top tier MFA Creative Writing program is literally 10x harder than getting into a top tier medical school by the acceptance/rejection ratio. acceptance/rejection ratio isn't the whole story, since you have to see what kinds of students are applying. And most people that know for a fact that they won't be accepted don't bother applying. Your little anecdote proves nothing, nor does your affirmative statement. Who cares if they play sc religiously? Playing something for fun is vastly different from playing something as your job, which you get paid for. So you think being a doctor is easier than getting on the New York Times Bestseller list with an original work of fiction?
You are an idiot. I held myself back when I read your posts in "post a picture of you and your girlfriend thread" but your brain must be made out of brick. You decide that you thoroughly know the medical field and blindly state that a writing program is ten times harder. What the fuck? That claim has no basis whatsoever, especially considering that acceptance/rejection ratio does not directly relate to how "hard" it is to get in there. Your little story about your friends does not add to your argument either. ghostwriter's right. The comparison should be the horde of Koreans trying to become progamers to high school/college students who aspire to be doctors, but change to alternative career because they cannot compete with other pre-med students in science classes.
And then you compare being a doctor to the highest success one can achieve as a writer. Lol. How about something like, finding a cure to a new disease to getting on the bestseller list?
"I am not going to post pictures of me and my girlfriend because I actually *respect* her and don't want internet nerds fapping to her pics." Lol.
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