EPTReality (Ret/Progaming) - Page 10
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Ghardo
Germany1685 Posts
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Arhkangel
Argentina769 Posts
 Rek fucking killed it with the post. Come on, cut the crap. The minority of the people here knew what Korea was really like, and by minority I men anyone that is not friends with IdrA or Ret, and yes, a lot of us thought that going to Korea to get some mass-training to get ready and be the next BoxeR in SC2 was a good idea.What I think that Rek really tried to show is that it may not be worth the sacrifice just for the "experience" as some people put it. Sitting in front of a monitor and then drinking a beer at a 7-11 is not much of an "experience". Unless the foreigners start raping faces in SC2 expect the same Korean domination. Why? Simple. The culture is so incredibly inaccessible. Why do you see foreigners in Baseball and Basketball? Because English is a language you learn even if your not planning on going pro on sports. Korean? Not so much. How many people do you see learning Korean in their spare time? Exactly. I didn't plan on playing videogames when I became older or following esports but I still know English pretty much as well as I know my native language (Spanish). Back to Ret. Honestly he seemed very very very unmotivated in his last courage video. I hoped the best for him (still do) but once I saw his attitude I knew it was just a matter of time. What people are not considering is that while it might be true that eStro is a pro team, it is one of the lesser ones. If I had to take a guess I would say that IdrA was going to suffer the same fate if he stayed on eStro, hell IdrA would had suffered the same fate if he had to obtain his license thru Courage. That pressure of knowing you HAVE to win that tournament and knowing how freaking hard it really is (que-in Flash's or JD story) can break your motivation and spirit very easily, specially in a "hostile" environment. All I can say is good luck Ret, don't feel bad the odds were stacked against you way before you joined Valor :p Good luck to IdrA hopefully we will see him in pro league soon. | ||
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
On December 28 2009 11:25 Ghardo wrote: look who forgot how he came there He did not forget. he just want to remind/update people outside Korea that what Korea is really like. I live with alot of Korean, and I can gurantee that most things rekrul said about Koreans are true. Very difficult for foreigner to blend in. Maybe his language is a bit extreme, but it's rekrul after all  | ||
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StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
On December 28 2009 11:36 Arhkangel wrote: So sorry Ret Rek fucking killed it with the post. Come on, cut the crap. The minority of the people here knew what Korea was really like, and by minority I men anyone that is not friends with IdrA or Ret, and yes, a lot of us thought that going to Korea to get some mass-training to get ready and be the next BoxeR in SC2 was a good idea.What I think that Rek really tried to show is that it may not be worth the sacrifice just for the "experience" as some people put it. Sitting in front of a monitor and then drinking a beer at a 7-11 is not much of an "experience". Unless the foreigners start raping faces in SC2 expect the same Korean domination. Why? Simple. The culture is so incredibly inaccessible. Why do you see foreigners in Baseball and Basketball? Because English is a language you learn even if your not planning on going pro on sports. Korean? Not so much. How many people do you see learning Korean in their spare time? Exactly. I didn't plan on playing videogames when I became older or following esports but I still know English pretty much as well as I know my native language (Spanish). Back to Ret. Honestly he seemed very very very unmotivated in his last courage video. I hoped the best for him (still do) but once I saw his attitude I knew it was just a matter of time. What people are not considering is that while it might be true that eStro is a pro team, it is one of the lesser ones. If I had to take a guess I would say that IdrA was going to suffer the same fate if he stayed on eStro, hell IdrA would had suffered the same fate if he had to obtain his license thru Courage. That pressure of knowing you HAVE to win that tournament and knowing how freaking hard it really is (que-in Flash's or JD story) can break your motivation and spirit very easily, specially in a "hostile" environment. All I can say is good luck Ret, don't feel bad the odds were stacked against you way before you joined Valor :p Good luck to IdrA hopefully we will see him in pro league soon. I think people learn English because it's the 20th century's langua franca with the American dominance of the last 40 years... Nothing really about the accessibility of the culture etc. I know a number of people who casually picked up Korean and have no problems speaking it fluently. Most of the multilingual people I know say Mandarin is hardest, then Japanese, then Korean is easiest among the three. I'm not gonna insist any language is easier than another, but that's just what people have told me. For me, I think e-sports is probably not going to survive. I know a lot of people have hopes for SC2 and what not but e-sports is just not something that is viable in the sense that baseball/basketball is. | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
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Silentness
United States2821 Posts
On December 28 2009 11:36 Arhkangel wrote: Why do you see foreigners in Baseball and Basketball? Because English is a language you learn even if your not planning on going pro on sports. Korean? Not so much. How many people do you see learning Korean in their spare time? Exactly. Wow so much truth in this post. I've been in Korea for over 2 years and my Korean still sucks, but I realized that I'm not going to be in Korea forever and I rather spend my time focusing on my job / other things. Once I leave Korea... I'll probably never speak or hear another Korean word again unless I turn on some Starcraft stream. Where as everybody and their mom speaks got damn English. I know at my High School we didn't have Korean. We had Spanish (of course), German, French, and I think that was it. NO KOREAN & no OTAKU err Japanese | ||
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Infested Terran
80 Posts
It's not "Korean culture". Certain jobs like consulting or (I believe) daytrading require one to invest gigantic effort and time, in a really competitive environment full of people who want to climb up. Although at those other jobs usually you need to cooperate with others to do your job, while in progaming you are on your own - you are responsible for improving your skill in order to win for yourself (just like daytraders). So no "Ill help you cuz I want to go home earlier" stuff. As Rekrul said, if you suck, they will practice with someone else, because it's more benefitial for them. Just like Ret doesnt practice vs D+ players. During 10 pages of discussion few things have been missed: 1) Ret is a dick. No offense, but his attitude was always bad; he always behaved as if he was the shit. BMing other players (anyone remember that video when he trashtalked Mana(?) and Koll(?)); thinking that he is super skilled yet struggling to go past A-; thinking that he is smarter than everyone. I suppose he argued with the Kors or something; probably practice time. (I share this attitude with him though; Im a dick too, but usually Im right :D) 2) Ret obviously did something bad, which isnt mentioned here. In the other thread there was some mention of fake replays. An explanation would be nice. Chill probably knows what happened but wont reaveal it due to the tl.net hypocrisy (other examples: banning abusers in TSL but not banning abusers during the ILMP fake tourney, who brag in their posts how they solved the "problem") 3) I always wonder how does Idra get so much time to play in all the "foreign" tourneys - e.g. nearly 200 games on iccup is few days of missed practice time. Or maybe the Kors dont want to practice with him either? (ok, saying anything bad about Idra is a bad idea in general because he is an American player and all Americans will defend him, just like the Chinese always defend pj). 4) Progamers are good at starcraft, but I dont think they are good at anything else, because they probably skipped school/dont have much free time. I suppose they speak very poor English or none at all. Just try to chat with a random Korean at iccup. It will be hard, or impossible. | ||
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shindigs
United States4795 Posts
I don't think people see that there's such a cultural barrier in Korea. I think the key is that the progaming is in an extensive competitive environment. Yeah some koreans can be easy and outgoing and socailize but you put them in an environment where they have to compete and they're gonna get everything down to a fucking science in order to dominate everyone and everything, and they won't let anything stand in their way. I shouldn't say more because I'd probably just repeat what rek is saying. It was just a damn good read. | ||
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Titusmaster6
United States5937 Posts
But deep down, I also knew there would be a greater chance that he wouldn't but I'm not one to judge quickly, I like giving people their chances and seeing what happens. Everything that needs to be said has been said. Props to you ret for trying your best and I hope you better future success. | ||
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
On December 28 2009 11:49 Infested Terran wrote: 3) I always wonder how does Idra get so much time to play in all the "foreign" tourneys - e.g. nearly 200 games on iccup is few days of missed practice time. Or maybe the Kors dont want to practice with him either? (ok, saying anyhing bad about Idra is a bad idea in general because he is an american player and all americans will defend him, just like the chinese always defend pj). Yeah, I'm sure after being on CJ for a good while now when he explains that the biggest foreigner tournament is going to be starting and he has a serious chance to make bank the managers told him to go fuck himself and get out of the CJ house. My bad, I'm just a stupid American who clearly is defending Idra because we share nationalities. I wont bother commenting on the rest of your post since it's clear your grasp of the English language is mediocre at best if you somehow thought ret's video about tsl was him shitting on mana and koll and not just giving honest opinions about them. | ||
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lazz
Australia3119 Posts
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TheRunawayFound
64 Posts
On December 28 2009 10:15 Bill Murray wrote: im nominating this for post of the year award great post rekrul i wish it had worked out differently, but no point dwelling on the past there will be a white progamer in SC2 What???? It´s funny how people tend to accept every post of Rekrul as a truth. Grow up. Like someone said, if anyone else made this post, they would be banned. | ||
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Infested Terran
80 Posts
On December 28 2009 11:56 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Yeah, I'm sure after being on CJ for a good while now when he explains that the biggest foreigner tournament is going to be starting and he has a serious chance to make bank the managers told him to go fuck himself and get out of the CJ house. My bad, I'm just a stupid American who clearly is defending Idra because we share nationalities. Let's assume that: I am a trainer of Idra. I want Idra to improve. Idra tells me "hey dude, I will waste x days or practice time to play 80 games vs D-B "newbs" on iccup, and then maybe 80 other beneficial games vs A- people - mostly foreigners/maybe some Kors who can publish my replays. If I do well, I can win some money - for me - not the team". Would you agree on that if you wanted your player to improve? Or would you agree if you thought he won't achieve much? btw. I believe that the pros share accounts because they dont want to climb the ladder (and to some degree they want to stay anonymous). They play to practice the game and you practice best vs hard opponents; thus playing 70 or more games just to reach A is a waste of time for them. I wont bother commenting on the rest of your post since it's clear your grasp of the English language is mediocre at best if you somehow thought ret's video about tsl was him shitting on mana and koll and not just giving honest opinions about them. He behaved as if he was much better than them; especially that laughter.. | ||
motbob
United States12546 Posts
On December 28 2009 11:59 TheRunawayFound wrote: What???? It´s funny how people tend to accept every post of Rekrul as a truth. Grow up. Like someone said, if anyone else made this post, they would be banned. Yeah, that's probably true, but they wouldn't be banned because the post is wrong/inflammatory/stupid, which is probably the reason you're thinking of. They'd be banned because they wouldn't know what the fuck they're talking about. There's no one in Korea who is more familiar with all four post-Hex foreigners' situations than Rekrul, except maybe Artosis, although I dunno if he had arrived in Korea when Draco was there. | ||
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Goose-
Belgium65 Posts
Oh well for being a 24-years-old he was quite naive, reading all this stuff and the things he said in that other topic. | ||
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
On December 28 2009 12:05 Infested Terran wrote: Let's assume that: I am a trainer of Idra. I want Idra to improve. Idra tells me "hey dude, I will waste x days or practice time to play 80 games vs D-B "newbs" on iccup, and then maybe 80 other beneficial games vs A- people - mostly foreigners/maybe some Kors who can publish my replays. If I do well, I can win some money - for me - not the team". Would you agree on that if you wanted your player to improve? Or would you agree if you thought he won't achieve much? btw. I believe that the pros share accounts because they dont want to climb the ladder (and to some degree they want to stay anonymous). They play to practice the game and you practice best vs hard opponents; thus playing 70 or more games just to reach A is a waste of time for them. Ironic that the crux of your position is based around the time that would be invested to achieve the rank and play in the tournament when one of the major discussions about ret/progaming is the sheer number of hours spent each day, regimented, spent playing starcraft. How on earth will Idra find time to play a few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks then a handful of games over the course of a couple of months. IMPOSSIBLE. | ||
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Infested Terran
80 Posts
On December 28 2009 12:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Ironic that the crux of your position is based around the time that would be invested to achieve the rank and play in the tournament when one of the major discussions about ret/progaming is the sheer number of hours spent each day, regimented, spent playing starcraft. How on earth will Idra find time to play a few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks then a handful of games over the course of a couple of months. IMPOSSIBLE. You definitely dont understand the 'play vs best opponents possible all the time - in order to improve as fast as possible' perspective. If you play to win, you always practice vs best; no few games here and there or rather "few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks". Although he is playing in TSL for money. From his point of view it might be ok; if I were his couch Id be angry that he wastes time playing newbs (ok, maybe last 50 games vs A Koreans were useful; rest - waste of time; and yes I believe that non-Koreans are much worse than random practice partners). | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
ALSO come to blizzcon these are demands sir. | ||
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QibingZero
2611 Posts
Realistically, what can you expect? Hell, I've had plans to travel to Sweden to stay with friends that, as of now, have not worked out. But regardless, I've studied a fair bit of Swedish and learned about the culture on the side. And, in Sweden, I really wouldn't need one bit of it to get me through. That doesn't change the fact that it's still a good mindset to have when you plan on staying in a foreign country for a while. You never know when it will help you. The application of something like this when applied to Korea should be obvious. I think that if I was seriously considering going to a Korean progaming team, I would wait until I could at least converse with the Koreans I played on Iccup in a meaningful fashion. Maybe even make some friends, you know? If you don't make an effort to absorb some of the culture yourself, how can you expect them to offer anything back to you? Do you think these same problems would arise if we were talking about foreigners who were at least partially fluent in Korean, and had some knowledge of culture and current events? You gain quite a lot of respect even if you can make some witty comments about politics and what not. I mean, if you do succeed, you're planning on spending years there! Show you at least have some interest in the country you're going to be spending your life in for that time. | ||
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
On December 28 2009 12:20 Infested Terran wrote: You definitely dont understand the play vs best opponents possible all the time perspective. If you play to win, you always practice vs best; no few games here and there or rather (few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks). Ok, maybe he does this for the money though. I understand your position entirely and your logic. It's just wrong. Is the time spent competing in TSL2 optimal training for Idra? No, but that doesn't mean it is a complete waste of time or actually detrimental to him. Couple that he is still playing starcraft against good competition, not just playing soccer with random people on the street, and has a legitimate shot to win 10k if he didn't compete it'd be foolish beyond belief. | ||
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