• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 19:54
CET 01:54
KST 09:54
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
SC2 All-Star Invitational: Tournament Preview5RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win0BSL Season 2025 - Full Overview and Conclusion6Weekly Cups (Jan 5-11): Clem wins big offline, Trigger upsets4$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)16Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns7
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win When will we find out if there are more tournament I am looking for StarCraft 2 Beta Patch files Stellar Fest "01" Jersey Charity Auction SC2 All-Star Invitational: Tournament Preview
Tourneys
$70 Prize Pool Ladder Legends Academy Weekly Open! SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-18 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC2 AI Tournament 2026 $21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 509 Doomsday Report Mutation # 508 Violent Night Mutation # 507 Well Trained Mutation # 506 Warp Zone
Brood War
General
Gypsy to Korea [ASL21] Potential Map Candidates Video Footage from 2005: The Birth of G2 in Spain BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10 Small VOD Thread 2.0 Azhi's Colosseum - Season 2
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta
Other Games
General Games
Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Awesome Games Done Quick 2026!
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread NASA and the Private Sector Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Navigating the Risks and Rew…
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1149 users

Reality (Ret/Progaming) - Page 11

Forum Index > BW General
617 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 9 10 11 12 13 31 Next All
Psyonic_Reaver
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States4339 Posts
December 28 2009 03:24 GMT
#201
On December 28 2009 09:20 heyoka wrote:
thats the real reason I avoided Chill at blizzcon


LOL!
So wait? I'm bad? =(
Infested Terran
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
80 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-28 03:31:54
December 28 2009 03:27 GMT
#202
On December 28 2009 12:23 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2009 12:20 Infested Terran wrote:
On December 28 2009 12:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
On December 28 2009 12:05 Infested Terran wrote:
Let's assume that:
I am a trainer of Idra.
I want Idra to improve.

Idra tells me "hey dude, I will waste x days or practice time to play 80 games vs D-B "newbs" on iccup, and then maybe 80 other beneficial games vs A- people - mostly foreigners/maybe some Kors who can publish my replays. If I do well, I can win some money - for me - not the team".

Would you agree on that if you wanted your player to improve? Or would you agree if you thought he won't achieve much?

btw. I believe that the pros share accounts because they dont want to climb the ladder (and to some degree they want to stay anonymous). They play to practice the game and you practice best vs hard opponents; thus playing 70 or more games just to reach A is a waste of time for them.


Ironic that the crux of your position is based around the time that would be invested to achieve the rank and play in the tournament when one of the major discussions about ret/progaming is the sheer number of hours spent each day, regimented, spent playing starcraft.

How on earth will Idra find time to play a few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks then a handful of games over the course of a couple of months. IMPOSSIBLE.


You definitely dont understand the play vs best opponents possible all the time perspective.
If you play to win, you always practice vs best; no few games here and there or rather (few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks). Ok, maybe he does this for the money though.


I understand your position entirely and your logic. It's just wrong.
Is the time spent competing in TSL2 optimal training for Idra? No, but that doesn't mean it is a complete waste of time or actually detrimental to him. Couple that he is still playing starcraft against good competition, not just playing soccer with random people on the street, and has a legitimate shot to win 10k if he didn't compete it'd be foolish beyond belief.


Well, it probably was beneficial for him, because he still lost a shitton; he would probably lose much more vs the practice partners though. So far he managed to learn to win vs "foreigners" (sadly not all of them); I think he would learn much more if he spend the time by trying to learn how to win vs real opponents (aka practice partners). If he could win vs the practice partners we could see him on TV. If he can win vs foreigners he can get 10k at least.
I am strong, I am zerg, I am the future!
MrHoon *
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
10183 Posts
December 28 2009 03:29 GMT
#203
On December 28 2009 06:31 SuperArc wrote:
So CJ is a more foreigner friendly team than estro?

Or were they just "friendlier" to Idra, because they are higher ranked than estro?

Since Idra didnt get to practice on estro

In Korea there is a saying that goes a little something like this

"The beautiful pond will attract beautiful people"

+ Show Spoiler +
If people need explanation for this, I suggest they go read some more books.
dats racist
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
December 28 2009 03:33 GMT
#204
Nice, I love the truth
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
LucasWoJ
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States936 Posts
December 28 2009 03:33 GMT
#205
On December 28 2009 11:49 Infested Terran wrote:
I dont find anything new in Rekrul's post. Maybe most of you had some romantic view of progaming, but it's just like work. Hard work in fact - for 12+ hours a day.
It's not "Korean culture". Certain jobs like consulting or (I believe) daytrading require one to invest gigantic effort and time, in a really competitive environment full of people who want to climb up.
Although at those other jobs usually you need to cooperate with others to do your job, while in progaming you are on your own - you are responsible for improving your skill in order to win for yourself (just like daytraders). So no "Ill help you cuz I want to go home earlier" stuff.
As Rekrul said, if you suck, they will practice with someone else, because it's more benefitial for them. Just like Ret doesnt practice vs D+ players.

During 10 pages of discussion few things have been missed:
1) Ret is a dick. No offense, but his attitude was always bad; he always behaved as if he was the shit. BMing other players (anyone remember that video when he trashtalked Mana(?) and Koll(?)); thinking that he is super skilled yet struggling to go past A-; thinking that he is smarter than everyone. I suppose he argued with the Kors or something; probably practice time. (I share this attitude with him though; Im a dick too, but usually Im right :D)
2) Ret obviously did something bad, which isnt mentioned here. In the other thread there was some mention of fake replays. An explanation would be nice. Chill probably knows what happened but wont reaveal it due to the tl.net hypocrisy (other examples: banning abusers in TSL but not banning abusers during the ILMP fake tourney, who brag in their posts how they solved the "problem")
3) I always wonder how does Idra get so much time to play in all the "foreign" tourneys - e.g. nearly 200 games on iccup is few days of missed practice time. Or maybe the Kors dont want to practice with him either? (ok, saying anything bad about Idra is a bad idea in general because he is an American player and all Americans will defend him, just like the Chinese always defend pj).
4) Progamers are good at starcraft, but I dont think they are good at anything else, because they probably skipped school/dont have much free time. I suppose they speak very poor English or none at all. Just try to chat with a random Korean at iccup. It will be hard, or impossible.



Y'know what? I disagreed with Chill when he criticized ret's fans in the courage thread, but after reading this post, I think I know exactly what he's talking about. This was just unpleasant to read.
"Of all the words of mice and men, the saddest are it could have been." - Kurt Vonnegut
NeoOmega
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States495 Posts
December 28 2009 03:45 GMT
#206
I'd just like to dedicate this post to Artosis, whose hospitality and generosity seems to have been lost a bit in this whole debacle. You may sound a bit like a phony TV weatherman when you commentate but your still an excellent human being.
toopham
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States551 Posts
December 28 2009 03:54 GMT
#207
All you guys are fuking bandwagon jumpers.
Rekrul post something bad about estro and the koreans and about ret and you all agree.

When I posted something bad about estro and how badly they treated ret and how Estro coaching suck balls, motherfuckers tell me I should "blog it" or that I am very wrong and shouldn't be saying those things against Estro because they've done so much for foreigners.

NeverGG even tell me to watch what I say because Estro coaches lurk this forum.
And then I get my thread closed because I am a nobody making a post.

It seems like the only way you can make a thread around here is if you're well known.

it's just fucking sad.
DIE!!!
AoN.DimSum
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States2983 Posts
December 28 2009 03:59 GMT
#208
On December 28 2009 12:54 toopham wrote:
All you guys are fuking bandwagon jumpers.
Rekrul post something bad about estro and the koreans and about ret and you all agree.

When I posted something bad about estro and how badly they treated ret and how Estro coaching suck balls, motherfuckers tell me I should "blog it" or that I am very wrong and shouldn't be saying those things against Estro because they've done so much for foreigners.

NeverGG even tell me to watch what I say because Estro coaches lurk this forum.
And then I get my thread closed because I am a nobody making a post.

It seems like the only way you can make a thread around here is if you're well known.

it's just fucking sad.



theres a difference because you are talking out of your ass, but rekrul is talking from experience
by my idol krokkis : "U better hope Finland wont have WCG next year and that I wont gain shitloads of skill, cause then I will wash ur mouth with soap, little man."
Daedes
Profile Joined August 2009
Bangladesh105 Posts
December 28 2009 04:03 GMT
#209
On December 28 2009 06:45 Chill wrote:
Agreed on every point.

Actually, even though it's public knowledge, I never knew how progaming actually worked until I was in Korea. You don't have a life. You follow their schedule, day in, day out, for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's not exciting to live in Korea because you can't fucking talk to anyone because they don't speak English, you don't have time to learn Korean, and you don't have time to actually step outside and see any of Seoul.

If anything, Idra deserves ridiculous amounts of credit for doing what he's done for so long. I know I wouldn't last 3 days. I'm completely serious.


Didnt you laugh at someone else on the other thread for saying the same thing?
berzerK
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1 Post
December 28 2009 04:04 GMT
#210
Rekrul is mad because he wasn't successful and.. is sooo negative..

Sounds like a fkn loser.
So thats why they call me the catman!
UFO
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
582 Posts
December 28 2009 04:05 GMT
#211
On December 28 2009 12:54 toopham wrote:
All you guys are fuking bandwagon jumpers.
Rekrul post something bad about estro and the koreans and about ret and you all agree.

When I posted something bad about estro and how badly they treated ret and how Estro coaching suck balls, motherfuckers tell me I should "blog it" or that I am very wrong and shouldn't be saying those things against Estro because they've done so much for foreigners.

NeverGG even tell me to watch what I say because Estro coaches lurk this forum.
And then I get my thread closed because I am a nobody making a post.

It seems like the only way you can make a thread around here is if you're well known.

it's just fucking sad.



it is the way it is but only to some degree. being known or not is an important factor , often. still its just it. if u will write your post and u will be able to use that Awerness then u will be able to get the reaction u you want, even with this obstacle.

anyways rekrul`s post is brilliant , won`t you agree ? he uses the fact that he is known in a skilled way : >

Xxio
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada5565 Posts
December 28 2009 04:06 GMT
#212
OP makes me think back on how Jaedong's parents wanted him to go to university / renegotiate contract so badly.
KTY
errol1001
Profile Joined April 2008
454 Posts
December 28 2009 04:07 GMT
#213
On December 28 2009 12:20 Infested Terran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2009 12:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
On December 28 2009 12:05 Infested Terran wrote:
Let's assume that:
I am a trainer of Idra.
I want Idra to improve.

Idra tells me "hey dude, I will waste x days or practice time to play 80 games vs D-B "newbs" on iccup, and then maybe 80 other beneficial games vs A- people - mostly foreigners/maybe some Kors who can publish my replays. If I do well, I can win some money - for me - not the team".

Would you agree on that if you wanted your player to improve? Or would you agree if you thought he won't achieve much?

btw. I believe that the pros share accounts because they dont want to climb the ladder (and to some degree they want to stay anonymous). They play to practice the game and you practice best vs hard opponents; thus playing 70 or more games just to reach A is a waste of time for them.


Ironic that the crux of your position is based around the time that would be invested to achieve the rank and play in the tournament when one of the major discussions about ret/progaming is the sheer number of hours spent each day, regimented, spent playing starcraft.

How on earth will Idra find time to play a few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks then a handful of games over the course of a couple of months. IMPOSSIBLE.


You definitely dont understand the 'play vs best opponents possible all the time - in order to improve as fast as possible' perspective. If you play to win, you always practice vs best; no few games here and there or rather "few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks".

Although he is playing in TSL for money. From his point of view it might be ok; if I were his couch Id be angry that he wastes time playing newbs (ok, maybe last 50 games vs A Koreans were useful; rest - waste of time; and yes I believe that non-Koreans are much worse than random practice partners).


I guess there is something you don't understand either. Something that all gamers have to deal with and even Flash isn't perfect at. Performing under pressure. The experience Idra gets participating in all these foreign tournaments is more valuable than the time lost playing against korean practice partners. Consider the ridiculous amount of time they spend in the first place, he's still spending a lot of time doing that.
Sentient66
Profile Joined July 2009
United States651 Posts
December 28 2009 04:08 GMT
#214
The cold hard truth... Good post Rekrul. I hope the best for Ret, whatever he decides to do.
seNsiX.421
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
December 28 2009 04:13 GMT
#215
On December 28 2009 13:04 berzerK wrote:
Rekrul is mad because he wasn't successful and.. is sooo negative..

Sounds like a fkn loser.


You insult Rekrul with your first post? Wow.
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
Integra
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Sweden5626 Posts
December 28 2009 04:17 GMT
#216
I sense great sadness in this thread.
"Dark Pleasure" | | I survived the Locust war of May 3, 2014
Megalisk
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States6095 Posts
December 28 2009 04:20 GMT
#217
On December 28 2009 13:04 berzerK wrote:
Rekrul is mad because he wasn't successful and.. is sooo negative..

Sounds like a fkn loser.

Great first post.rekrul has probably done more in his life than you ever will.
Tear stained american saints and dirty guitar dreams across a universe of desert and blue sky , gas station coffee love letters and two dollar pistol kisses from thirty five dollar hotel room stationary .
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33518 Posts
December 28 2009 04:25 GMT
#218
the post was too long, but I skimmed through it a little.

A bunch of white people generalizing about Koreans, I'm a little bit amused.
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
December 28 2009 04:28 GMT
#219
On December 28 2009 13:25 Waxangel wrote:
the post was too long, but I skimmed through it a little.

A bunch of white people generalizing about Koreans, I'm a little bit amused.

Pretty interesting that you only skimmed the post and you're talking about generalizing!
ModeratorGood content always wins.
bjornkavist
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada1235 Posts
December 28 2009 04:36 GMT
#220
This would make a great Documentary or Movie. "Ret In Korea"
https://soundcloud.com/bbols
Prev 1 9 10 11 12 13 31 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 10h 6m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft543
SpeCial 108
Nathanias 91
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 1094
Shuttle 132
HiyA 62
Stormgate
Artosis717
Dota 2
syndereN255
League of Legends
C9.Mang0387
Counter-Strike
Foxcn239
taco 30
Super Smash Bros
PPMD54
Other Games
summit1g6687
Maynarde124
XaKoH 106
Mew2King27
minikerr23
Liquid`Ken2
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 73
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Laughngamez YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
• Mapu3
• sM.Zik 2
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21349
Other Games
• imaqtpie2475
• Scarra1208
• Shiphtur153
Upcoming Events
OSC
10h 6m
Shameless vs MaNa
Nicoract vs Percival
Krystianer vs TBD
Cure vs SHIN
PiGosaur Monday
1d
The PondCast
1d 9h
OSC
1d 10h
Big Brain Bouts
3 days
Serral vs TBD
BSL 21
4 days
BSL 21
5 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Monday Night Weeklies
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

IPSL Winter 2025-26
SC2 All-Star Inv. 2025
NA Kuram Kup

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
OSC Championship Season 13
Underdog Cup #3
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: W5
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Rongyi Cup S3
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.