On December 28 2009 09:20 heyoka wrote:
thats the real reason I avoided Chill at blizzcon
thats the real reason I avoided Chill at blizzcon
LOL!
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Psyonic_Reaver
United States4330 Posts
On December 28 2009 09:20 heyoka wrote: thats the real reason I avoided Chill at blizzcon LOL! | ||
Infested Terran
80 Posts
On December 28 2009 12:23 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Show nested quote + On December 28 2009 12:20 Infested Terran wrote: On December 28 2009 12:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote: On December 28 2009 12:05 Infested Terran wrote: Let's assume that: I am a trainer of Idra. I want Idra to improve. Idra tells me "hey dude, I will waste x days or practice time to play 80 games vs D-B "newbs" on iccup, and then maybe 80 other beneficial games vs A- people - mostly foreigners/maybe some Kors who can publish my replays. If I do well, I can win some money - for me - not the team". Would you agree on that if you wanted your player to improve? Or would you agree if you thought he won't achieve much? btw. I believe that the pros share accounts because they dont want to climb the ladder (and to some degree they want to stay anonymous). They play to practice the game and you practice best vs hard opponents; thus playing 70 or more games just to reach A is a waste of time for them. Ironic that the crux of your position is based around the time that would be invested to achieve the rank and play in the tournament when one of the major discussions about ret/progaming is the sheer number of hours spent each day, regimented, spent playing starcraft. How on earth will Idra find time to play a few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks then a handful of games over the course of a couple of months. IMPOSSIBLE. You definitely dont understand the play vs best opponents possible all the time perspective. If you play to win, you always practice vs best; no few games here and there or rather (few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks). Ok, maybe he does this for the money though. I understand your position entirely and your logic. It's just wrong. Is the time spent competing in TSL2 optimal training for Idra? No, but that doesn't mean it is a complete waste of time or actually detrimental to him. Couple that he is still playing starcraft against good competition, not just playing soccer with random people on the street, and has a legitimate shot to win 10k if he didn't compete it'd be foolish beyond belief. Well, it probably was beneficial for him, because he still lost a shitton; he would probably lose much more vs the practice partners though. So far he managed to learn to win vs "foreigners" (sadly not all of them); I think he would learn much more if he spend the time by trying to learn how to win vs real opponents (aka practice partners). If he could win vs the practice partners we could see him on TV. If he can win vs foreigners he can get 10k at least. | ||
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MrHoon
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10183 Posts
On December 28 2009 06:31 SuperArc wrote: So CJ is a more foreigner friendly team than estro? Or were they just "friendlier" to Idra, because they are higher ranked than estro? Since Idra didnt get to practice on estro In Korea there is a saying that goes a little something like this "The beautiful pond will attract beautiful people" + Show Spoiler + If people need explanation for this, I suggest they go read some more books. | ||
BanZu
United States3329 Posts
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LucasWoJ
United States936 Posts
On December 28 2009 11:49 Infested Terran wrote: I dont find anything new in Rekrul's post. Maybe most of you had some romantic view of progaming, but it's just like work. Hard work in fact - for 12+ hours a day. It's not "Korean culture". Certain jobs like consulting or (I believe) daytrading require one to invest gigantic effort and time, in a really competitive environment full of people who want to climb up. Although at those other jobs usually you need to cooperate with others to do your job, while in progaming you are on your own - you are responsible for improving your skill in order to win for yourself (just like daytraders). So no "Ill help you cuz I want to go home earlier" stuff. As Rekrul said, if you suck, they will practice with someone else, because it's more benefitial for them. Just like Ret doesnt practice vs D+ players. During 10 pages of discussion few things have been missed: 1) Ret is a dick. No offense, but his attitude was always bad; he always behaved as if he was the shit. BMing other players (anyone remember that video when he trashtalked Mana(?) and Koll(?)); thinking that he is super skilled yet struggling to go past A-; thinking that he is smarter than everyone. I suppose he argued with the Kors or something; probably practice time. (I share this attitude with him though; Im a dick too, but usually Im right :D) 2) Ret obviously did something bad, which isnt mentioned here. In the other thread there was some mention of fake replays. An explanation would be nice. Chill probably knows what happened but wont reaveal it due to the tl.net hypocrisy (other examples: banning abusers in TSL but not banning abusers during the ILMP fake tourney, who brag in their posts how they solved the "problem") 3) I always wonder how does Idra get so much time to play in all the "foreign" tourneys - e.g. nearly 200 games on iccup is few days of missed practice time. Or maybe the Kors dont want to practice with him either? (ok, saying anything bad about Idra is a bad idea in general because he is an American player and all Americans will defend him, just like the Chinese always defend pj). 4) Progamers are good at starcraft, but I dont think they are good at anything else, because they probably skipped school/dont have much free time. I suppose they speak very poor English or none at all. Just try to chat with a random Korean at iccup. It will be hard, or impossible. Y'know what? I disagreed with Chill when he criticized ret's fans in the courage thread, but after reading this post, I think I know exactly what he's talking about. This was just unpleasant to read. | ||
NeoOmega
United States495 Posts
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toopham
United States551 Posts
Rekrul post something bad about estro and the koreans and about ret and you all agree. When I posted something bad about estro and how badly they treated ret and how Estro coaching suck balls, motherfuckers tell me I should "blog it" or that I am very wrong and shouldn't be saying those things against Estro because they've done so much for foreigners. NeverGG even tell me to watch what I say because Estro coaches lurk this forum. And then I get my thread closed because I am a nobody making a post. It seems like the only way you can make a thread around here is if you're well known. it's just fucking sad. | ||
AoN.DimSum
United States2983 Posts
On December 28 2009 12:54 toopham wrote: All you guys are fuking bandwagon jumpers. Rekrul post something bad about estro and the koreans and about ret and you all agree. When I posted something bad about estro and how badly they treated ret and how Estro coaching suck balls, motherfuckers tell me I should "blog it" or that I am very wrong and shouldn't be saying those things against Estro because they've done so much for foreigners. NeverGG even tell me to watch what I say because Estro coaches lurk this forum. And then I get my thread closed because I am a nobody making a post. It seems like the only way you can make a thread around here is if you're well known. it's just fucking sad. theres a difference because you are talking out of your ass, but rekrul is talking from experience | ||
Daedes
Bangladesh105 Posts
On December 28 2009 06:45 Chill wrote: Agreed on every point. Actually, even though it's public knowledge, I never knew how progaming actually worked until I was in Korea. You don't have a life. You follow their schedule, day in, day out, for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's not exciting to live in Korea because you can't fucking talk to anyone because they don't speak English, you don't have time to learn Korean, and you don't have time to actually step outside and see any of Seoul. If anything, Idra deserves ridiculous amounts of credit for doing what he's done for so long. I know I wouldn't last 3 days. I'm completely serious. Didnt you laugh at someone else on the other thread for saying the same thing? | ||
berzerK
United States1 Post
Sounds like a fkn loser. | ||
UFO
582 Posts
On December 28 2009 12:54 toopham wrote: All you guys are fuking bandwagon jumpers. Rekrul post something bad about estro and the koreans and about ret and you all agree. When I posted something bad about estro and how badly they treated ret and how Estro coaching suck balls, motherfuckers tell me I should "blog it" or that I am very wrong and shouldn't be saying those things against Estro because they've done so much for foreigners. NeverGG even tell me to watch what I say because Estro coaches lurk this forum. And then I get my thread closed because I am a nobody making a post. It seems like the only way you can make a thread around here is if you're well known. it's just fucking sad. it is the way it is but only to some degree. being known or not is an important factor , often. still its just it. if u will write your post and u will be able to use that Awerness then u will be able to get the reaction u you want, even with this obstacle. anyways rekrul`s post is brilliant , won`t you agree ? he uses the fact that he is known in a skilled way : > | ||
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Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
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errol1001
454 Posts
On December 28 2009 12:20 Infested Terran wrote: Show nested quote + On December 28 2009 12:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote: On December 28 2009 12:05 Infested Terran wrote: Let's assume that: I am a trainer of Idra. I want Idra to improve. Idra tells me "hey dude, I will waste x days or practice time to play 80 games vs D-B "newbs" on iccup, and then maybe 80 other beneficial games vs A- people - mostly foreigners/maybe some Kors who can publish my replays. If I do well, I can win some money - for me - not the team". Would you agree on that if you wanted your player to improve? Or would you agree if you thought he won't achieve much? btw. I believe that the pros share accounts because they dont want to climb the ladder (and to some degree they want to stay anonymous). They play to practice the game and you practice best vs hard opponents; thus playing 70 or more games just to reach A is a waste of time for them. Ironic that the crux of your position is based around the time that would be invested to achieve the rank and play in the tournament when one of the major discussions about ret/progaming is the sheer number of hours spent each day, regimented, spent playing starcraft. How on earth will Idra find time to play a few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks then a handful of games over the course of a couple of months. IMPOSSIBLE. You definitely dont understand the 'play vs best opponents possible all the time - in order to improve as fast as possible' perspective. If you play to win, you always practice vs best; no few games here and there or rather "few hundred games of starcraft over the course of a feew weeks". Although he is playing in TSL for money. From his point of view it might be ok; if I were his couch Id be angry that he wastes time playing newbs (ok, maybe last 50 games vs A Koreans were useful; rest - waste of time; and yes I believe that non-Koreans are much worse than random practice partners). I guess there is something you don't understand either. Something that all gamers have to deal with and even Flash isn't perfect at. Performing under pressure. The experience Idra gets participating in all these foreign tournaments is more valuable than the time lost playing against korean practice partners. Consider the ridiculous amount of time they spend in the first place, he's still spending a lot of time doing that. | ||
Sentient66
United States651 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On December 28 2009 13:04 berzerK wrote: Rekrul is mad because he wasn't successful and.. is sooo negative.. Sounds like a fkn loser. You insult Rekrul with your first post? Wow. | ||
Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
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Megalisk
United States6095 Posts
On December 28 2009 13:04 berzerK wrote: Rekrul is mad because he wasn't successful and.. is sooo negative.. Sounds like a fkn loser. Great first post.rekrul has probably done more in his life than you ever will. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33075 Posts
A bunch of white people generalizing about Koreans, I'm a little bit amused. | ||
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motbob
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United States12546 Posts
On December 28 2009 13:25 Waxangel wrote: the post was too long, but I skimmed through it a little. A bunch of white people generalizing about Koreans, I'm a little bit amused. Pretty interesting that you only skimmed the post and you're talking about generalizing! | ||
bjornkavist
Canada1235 Posts
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