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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On August 19 2009 03:35 Ian Ian Ian wrote: Two of the replays are 4 minutes long. The one with the probe glitch is 14. You really can't spare 4 minutes..? No. | ||
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Phelix
1931 Posts
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Ian Ian Ian
913 Posts
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deathgod6
United States5064 Posts
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integral
United States3156 Posts
 Anyway, a bunker is exactly like a turret in that if a unit is DIRECTLY centered on top of it, it can no longer fire at that unit. Diplo players have been freezing turrets with dropships for as long as I can remember, it was only a matter of time before we figured out that bunkers would freeze as well. Then it was only a matter of time before we figured out you could freeze bunkers and turrets with other units too, like floating terran buildings. For a while we only froze them with non-combat units, since it's significantly more difficult to get a combat unit directly on top of the bunker/turret without being able to spam right click, but lately we've been freezing with wraiths, battlecruisers, scouts, etc. Cool thing is, if one of the units that you freeze a bunker with is a combat unit, like a valkyrie, the units inside the bunker will not retarget to another combat unit. This is similar to a turret not automatically retargeting to a dropship if it's attacking a building, a trick with a ton of applications in diplo and I'd imagine in TvT as well... anyway there is a target acquisition hierarchy, as well as a target reacquisition hierarchy, that varies for each unit in the game. All experienced UMS players I know have had to deal with this hierarchy, since targeting rules have a great impact on many UMS games (like defense games). I'm sure melee players have a rough feel for target acquisition and reacquisition rules as well and get annoyed at goliaths for shooting and chasing the wrong things as often as I do. Anyway if you freeze a bunker with a valkyrie, you can kill the bunker with marines, ghosts, firebats, goliaths, scvs, etc. -- pretty much anything you want. Bunker marines will not even retarget to a battlecruiser attacking it, though a turret frozen by a valkyrie does retarget to a battlecruiser. I showed this to one of my melee friends recently and he shit his pants. We played with it a while until we figured out the angle that a turret can fire at a unit on top of it from (the turret has to be pointing vertically -- spamming stop is only useful to get the turret to the angle it will fire again, if you spam stop after that the turret will re-freeze when it's no longer at a vertical angle). Also note that the initial angle of approach to whatever you're freezing cannot be from the top, it has to be from the side or bottom. Bunkers can shoot units aligned vertically top-to-bottom, otherwise you have to unload the bunker and reload it to get the units to attack the unit on top of it.The only place I can see this particular trick having significant application is in ZvT with mutas vs turrets/bunkers, and perhaps freezing turrets with dropships. A lone bunker could be frozen by a single mutalisk to allow zerglings to kill it, etc. etc. For those suggesting that this might be map or UMS-specific: I haven't tested this in melee yet, I'm not a melee player, but I've used it in multiple maps against both human and computer players. There is nothing at all that suggests this is map-specific or unique to UMS, and the existence of the observer-over-turret in melee corroborates it enough that I'm completely certain the rules are the same. This is an SC engine thing, not a map settings thing. Spores and cannons cannot be frozen. | ||
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integral
United States3156 Posts
On August 19 2009 01:48 Ian Ian Ian wrote: I'm sort of new on teamliquid, used to spend alot of time on another forum related to starcraft, but it was relatively small, and not filled with players with so much skill/knowledge etc. There is a glitch there that we've been trying to figure out for the longest time, bunker freezing. I know mostly everyone here might not have ever seen it before because it doesn't happen in melee, but I'm hoping a couple people might know about it. Basically just like how you can freeze a turret with a building/dropship/air unit, you can also freeze a bunker by moving anything directly overtop of it so it will quit shooting at you. This used to be common knowledge to me and most of the peole I play with, but we recently discovered that if you freeze the bunker with an air unit that attacks (eg valk/wraith/sair), then drop units by it, the bunker will still continue to not retarget. This only seemed to work when there were special ghosts in the bunker though. If there are other units in the bunker, sometimes they retarget, sometimes not, and we can't figure out why. Wondering if anone could maybe shed some light on this as to why it happens. I might try and record a video sometime too. This part isn't even remotely true, ian, wtf? We regularly freeze bunkers with normal and hero marines, normal and hero ghosts... it doesn't matter what unit is in the bunker if you freeze it with a combat unit. It does matter what unit is in the bunker (and the angle you approach the bunker from) if you're trying to soak damage with a building and make the units inside not retarget. Why would you post something so blatantly false on teamliquid? You don't have to pretend to not know something just 'cause you're new here, you're just going to get pages of people questioning what you know because you sound uncertain. Edit: the only reason my sair freeze in north ireland failed is because the dropship nudged the corsair off-center. Air units are lame like that sometimes. | ||
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StalkerSC
Canada378 Posts
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StorrZerg
United States13911 Posts
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MutaDoom
Canada1163 Posts
On August 19 2009 04:31 StorrZerg wrote: Everyone is to lazy, or busy, or is incapable of getting on bnet. thats funny | ||
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integral
United States3156 Posts
On August 19 2009 04:31 StorrZerg wrote: Everyone is to lazy, or busy, or is incapable of getting on bnet. thats funny I just made a melee replay for you lazy people. http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=19090 | ||
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integral
United States3156 Posts
overlord bunker freeze ![[image loading]](http://i27.tinypic.com/1zv6dyf.jpg) dual turret freeze with mutas ![[image loading]](http://i30.tinypic.com/id974x.jpg) dual bunker freeze with mutas ![[image loading]](http://i29.tinypic.com/ndr7f5.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i26.tinypic.com/2eq6l9d.jpg) lings unharmed ![[image loading]](http://i30.tinypic.com/52xmhx.jpg) | ||
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Phelix
1931 Posts
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Pioneer
994 Posts
On August 19 2009 02:54 zatic wrote: It's not banned from pro games either. I think WCG still bans it. Although even they might not enforce it. Wasn't there some controvercy in last year's WCG where one of the pros used obs over turret because it didn't occur to them that it could be banned? It was Stork and it's not banned in progames since it's easy to deal with, that's why he assumed it was ok to do at WCG. | ||
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integral
United States3156 Posts
On August 19 2009 05:12 Phelix wrote: You have to rename the rep since the name is too long. However, these bugs are in the game, and I guess they could be of some importance in melee matches. that's repdepot's naming convention, not mine. sorry you have to rename. I can imagine a ton of scenarios in which this could be useful... it's not like I'm good (at all) and I can dual turret and bunker freeze pretty decently. It's a lot more deadly vs bunkers since you have to unload the bunkers to deal with it, but I can see a lot of situations in which a small muta force can kill a disproportionate number of turrets if the terran isn't ready for it. | ||
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ketomai
United States2789 Posts
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integral
United States3156 Posts
There are, however, some bizarre targeting rules for units loaded in dropships/overlords. If you had a drone in an overlord, (scv in dropship, probe in shuttle) then bunkerfroze/unloaded combat units (but NOT the worker)on a bunker, the units inside the bunker would not target the combat units outside presumably due to having targeted the worker inside the transport. At least, in certain circumstances that would be the case. This is one I'm still trying to figure out, I have no idea why a bunker would target a noncombat unit inside a loaded shuttle/overlord/dropship over combat units outside hitting it... but it happens consistently enough in diplo that I'm sure there's a reason. There's also a similar bug with combat units inside dropships, in that (presumably) the marines will target a combat unit inside the dropship. If you unload a unit that is not the targeted combat unit, often no marines will hit that unit. If the targeted unit is then unloaded the marines will target it immediately. Reload that unit and the marines will hit the other units attacking the bunker. This is much more inconsistent than simply bringing a worker in your dropship with you. SC is pretty weird sometimes. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On August 19 2009 03:35 Ian Ian Ian wrote: Two of the replays are 4 minutes long. The one with the probe glitch is 14. You really can't spare 4 minutes..? he just have no patience, just don't bother showing it to him :p I watched the replay, it seems to only work on diplomacy map no? I'm sure there can be some trigger bugs in those maps as well, as opposed to pure mechanic bugs nvm i saw screen shots of melee map. Would be useful maybe 1/10000 games but I'll sure to know it when it comes | ||
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integral
United States3156 Posts
On August 19 2009 06:34 evanthebouncy! wrote: he just have no patience, just don't bother showing it to him :p I watched the replay, it seems to only work on diplomacy map no? I'm sure there can be some trigger bugs in those maps as well, as opposed to pure mechanic bugs Read the thread. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On August 19 2009 02:38 fanatacist wrote: It's banned in pro games and in most tournaments. Not banned in pro games at all. Tasteless was talking about it quite a bit during Gom when people were doing it, how it's banned WCG and he had to DQ Stork for doing it because stork was so used to it being used. Edit : I've also seen it being used on neo medusa in pvt at some point within the last few monhts. | ||
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Ganfei
Taiwan1439 Posts
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