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The internet is a wonderful thing. It has brought me to be passionate about a great number of issues, from American (which, to me, are foreign) politics, to the Church of Scientology, to the Westborough church and its idiocies. I find, generally speaking, the frustrations of the mass of 15-30 year old males that comprise the majority of the internet are the same frustrations as mine.
It is because I agree with the majority of the educated internet that I am continually frustrated by one major difference.
I am a Christian.
For the internet, this seems to be some sort of great insult, curse, or some such. Here's the thing; I've never tried to convert anyone, convince anyone they're wrong, etc. So why are there internet denizens who insist on converting me, and other Christians, to atheism? I understand the frustrations of the American young adults when right wing politics are run by evangelical christian beliefs.
My frustration is that I am not a right wing evangelical Christian. In fact, there are many stereotypes about Christianity which I don't belong to. My IQ is 130, even though the average christian IQ in north America is below the global average of 100. I believe in evolution, am pretty confident of the Big Bang (a mostly unprovable, but ultimately logical, theory), and most of all I don't spend the majority of my time preaching.
You may be thinking, but Shai, you're obviously not a devout Christian. However, I attended my faith's largest university in the country and majored in theology. My father and his father before him were ministers.
My point is this: not all Christians are the right-wing, ultra conservative, outspoken ones that are so visible in American media. We aren't all ignorant to other faiths, ethnicities, and ideologies. In fact, many of us support global aid without forcing theology on anyone.
So please, don't judge all of Christianity based on the American south, or Westborough, or any other singular group. There are crazy, crazy Christians. Yep. There are equally crazy atheists, Muslims, Jews, and as far as I know Hindus and Buddhists too. So just because I don't drink, do drugs, nor raise my hands in violence against any human being, doesn't mean that I am demanding the same of anyone. Why can't we be friends?
 
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People should not hate on the people who are the subject of institutions such as religion. People should hate the institution and the people that governs it.
I tried not to instigate hate on this post but its hard. We will always be surrounded by hate.
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On March 05 2011 15:40 aimaimaim wrote:
People should not hate on the people who are the subject of institutions such as religion .. People should hate the institution and the people that governs it.
Or people can stop caring about what people believe...
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On March 05 2011 15:41 Alexson wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 15:40 aimaimaim wrote:
People should not hate on the people who are the subject of institutions such as religion .. People should hate the institution and the people that governs it. Or people can stop caring about what people believe...
“Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand”
No, I disagree. If people don't give a fuck about people. There will be chaos. Unbalance in society.
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My frustration is that I am not a right wing evangelical Christian. In fact, there are many stereotypes about Christianity which I don't belong to. My IQ is 130, even though the average christian IQ in north America is below the global average of 100. I believe in evolution, am pretty confident of the Big Bang (a mostly unprovable, but ultimately logical, theory), and most of all I don't spend the majority of my time preaching.
You know you should take a course in that. It is unprovable in the same way that gravity is unprovable. Theory =/= guess in science.
I personally don't know what people say to you, but don't take the internet too seriously.
As for your points, I personally dislike religion in general, not just the radical ones that you mention. Although, I dislike the radical ones that try to convert people to their stupidity more. I just find the concept of believing in a religion illogical. I view them the same as people who believe in elves and unicorns.
Gah I haven't ranted against religion in a while as topics like this degenerate very quickly and I tend to stay away from them.
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On March 05 2011 15:45 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 15:41 Alexson wrote:On March 05 2011 15:40 aimaimaim wrote:
People should not hate on the people who are the subject of institutions such as religion .. People should hate the institution and the people that governs it. Or people can stop caring about what people believe... No, I disagree. If people don't give a fuck about people. There will be chaos. Unbalance in society.
Pretty sure that quote wasn't given in the context of what other people believe in. Here's one I favour personally: Live and let live.
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On March 05 2011 15:48 H wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 15:45 aimaimaim wrote:On March 05 2011 15:41 Alexson wrote:On March 05 2011 15:40 aimaimaim wrote:
People should not hate on the people who are the subject of institutions such as religion .. People should hate the institution and the people that governs it. Or people can stop caring about what people believe... “Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand” No, I disagree. If people don't give a fuck about people. There will be chaos. Unbalance in society. Pretty sure that quote wasn't given in the context of what other people believe in. Here's one I favour personally: Live and let live.
Fair enough. But I think it applies in some ways. Beliefs screws people up, even the more docile or open-minded people I know will fight/argue for what they believe in and with that comes 'division' and divisions comes hatred.
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so what? just shrug it off. I have to when some evangelical or jehova's witness comes knocking at my door. people think because I'm gay i'm evil, or because i'm an atheist i'm evil. or because i have red hair that i'm evil. or because i'm evil that i'm in fact evil.
but w/e. you get used to it, something about a thick skin or other.
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On March 05 2011 15:48 Nemesis wrote:
You know you should take a course in that. It is unprovable in the same way that gravity is unprovable. Theory =/= guess in science.
Perhaps it would surprise you to know that I excel in the sciences (apart from Biology because I hate memorizing and it seems to me that's all it is, both in high school and university, from personal experience). Though Gravity is indeed unprovable using a mathematical approach to the idea of a "proof" it is obviously more tangeable and as such the arguments surrounding it are somewhat non existent (apart from some guy I read who claims gravity works the opposite way we assume and that the combined forces of gravity from the universe are pushing us onto earth. But he's crazy). The Big Bang theory I take as the same sort of thing; when I said it was unprovable I meant it in the scientific sense. Please to not assume my ignorance.
As for religion being ultimately fantastical ... that is not at all the point of this post. Please refrain from going down that path. My entire point was it is not religion that harms people, but people who harm people. The institute of Christianity is more broad than that; it is only certain denominations, preachers, and leaders who are, in fact, maniacal, egotistical, and power hungry. It is indeed unfortunate that there are Christians who cause a great deal of strife for a great deal of people, just as it is unfortunate that there are agnostics, atheists, etc who do the same for similar ideologies.
Regardless of all of this, my point is this: I am not harming anyone through my practice of faith, and it has driven me to spend a great deal of my time volunteering at secular organizations. I am not asking for praise, and on the same level, I am not asking for animosity. I have spent a great amount of time mulling over American foreign affairs, and how much I dislike the militant parts of them, and yet at the same time I do not resent America or American people.
In this same way, I wish that I didn't have to read generalizations about Christians and Christianity.
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Don't put all of the atheists in one group either. You're trying to say just because you're Christian doesn't mean you fall into all of these stereotypes but then you stereotype atheists as people who believe all that and try to convert you. Not every atheist thinks the same way just like not every Christian thinks the same way. There will always be people trying to persuade others that his own way of thinking is the only way no matter what religion they associate themselves with.
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I will always have a problem with people who 100% seriously believe that I will end up in Hell, in eternal suffering and despair, just because I am a non-believer. It doesn't mean I will act antagonistically towards Christians, but it definitely bothers me.
We don't have to talk about it, because if I know you're Christian, I know that that is what you are, or at least should be, thinking. It feels very condescending, you know what I mean? Not only because you are 'naturally forced' to believe you are better than me, but also because of the fact that I'm being judged by something I don't believe in.
Now, you may say, "No no, we're all God's children," but if you think about it, that's honestly a truly lame excuse.
If I am wrong about this, please correct me. If not, I would appreciate a reply.
1. Am I going to Hell if I'm not Christian?
2. If I am, why aren't you trying to convert me? Wouldn't that be the right thing to do?
See if I believed that you were going to endure eternal suffering, I would do whatever it takes to help you avoid that situation. If the only protection is to become Christian, then I would preach like crazy trying to convince you to convert. An eternity without suffering outweights whatever belief system you may hold to, so I wouldn't care if I offended you or whatnot to get you to convert.
But you don't do that. In fact, you say that you don't go around trying to preach to people. Ostensibly, that's a good thing. But from a different perspective, it's really just mean.
Say for example a bomb is going to explode in a small town. You know this, but the people are ignorant of it. Why would you think it's a good idea for them to stick to their ignorance? It's almost as if you're thinking, "Pfft okay, if they don't want to believe me, that's their problem."
You see how this goes back to my point of condescension?
Overall, while I appreciate that many Christians don't go around preaching in my face, and I definitely don't believe in the religion, I find that it is bad for Christians, if they really believe in their faith, not to preach.
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On March 05 2011 16:04 Shai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 15:48 Nemesis wrote:
You know you should take a course in that. It is unprovable in the same way that gravity is unprovable. Theory =/= guess in science. As for religion being ultimately fantastical ... that is not at all the point of this post. Please refrain from going down that path. My entire point was it is not religion that harms people, but people who harm people. The institute of Christianity is more broad than that; it is only certain denominations, preachers, and leaders who are, in fact, maniacal, egotistical, and power hungry. It is indeed unfortunate that there are Christians who cause a great deal of strife for a great deal of people, just as it is unfortunate that there are agnostics, atheists, etc who do the same for similar ideologies. Regardless of all of this, my point is this: I am not harming anyone through my practice of faith, and it has driven me to spend a great deal of my time volunteering at secular organizations. I am not asking for praise, and on the same level, I am not asking for animosity. I have spent a great amount of time mulling over American foreign affairs, and how much I dislike the militant parts of them, and yet at the same time I do not resent America or American people. In this same way, I wish that I didn't have to read generalizations about Christians and Christianity.
Even that is easily debatable. But I'll spare you the argument per your request. But more on topic: what exactly are you asking, and to who? Most of the things at the end of your post seem very acceptable to the general TL public
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Unfortunately, the christians who are moderate to liberal aren't really heard. Those who preach hate get time on the news whereas those who preach moderation and inclusion are ignored. For the average atheist, their only interaction with religious types are in a negative manner, when they come to proselytize and not to aid. People who are open minded know this and are willing to converse with the open minded faithful, the close minded avoid other groups at all costs.
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I was born into Sunday school and went to church twice a week until I moved out of my mom's house and to be honest I actually am a lot better off for it. I choose not to believe now but that is because of my own personal experiences, I would bet $1 million that nobody besides myself could have convinced me to drop my faith. My encouragement to you is that you are your own person with your own existence to come to grips with- and on your death bed you wont need to satisfy anybodies expectations but your own, so have whatever faith you feel called to. Just keep in mind that most people (even most Christians) have never read more than 5 pages of the Bible so there is no way to reconcile your spirituality with their definition of the RELIGION part of it. Remember that people have done horrible things under the banner of Christianity and a lot of people don't have any other metric to go by, and that isn't their fault any more than it is your fault the crusades happened. Taking the labels off... it makes everything easier to understand
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I don't think there exists any atheists on the internet who wish to convert Christians. I don't see a motivation for it. However, it is very common for people on the internet to pretend to debate with Christians as a way to troll. I am quite guilty of this. The way I view religious people, if people wish to use the guidelines of a religion to live their life a certain way, I fully respect that. I've met a lot of wonderful people that are religious. However if someone uses religion as a replacement for science or politics, then the role of their existence is to be my troll victim. I often convey to them why atheism is superior, but the last thing I want is to actually convert them into atheism. The sheer purpose is that it pisses them off. I have an account on some popular online Christian community, and all I do is start up arguments on why beating your wife is consistent with bible teachings. It's great lulz.
So can devout religious people and internet atheists ever be friends? Absolutely not, but we often pretend to be friends as a part of a troll. Can casual religious people and internet atheists ever be friends? Absolutely, we have no release to disrespect you in any way.
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Props to you for standing for what you believe. I myself was raised Christian and chose to renounce to my religion because it demanded too much from me and I believe my time was better spent doing things that I actually enjoyed (i.e. playing starcraft). That said; most people are not atheists, but agnostics.
Now I don't think that us agnostics associate religion(in general) with stupidity but with narrowmindedness. Of course there are exceptions to everything; one of the graduate students in my philosophy faculty is a very religious man. One of the smartest people I've ever met, open minded, loves to talk about his faith and welcomes criticisms. Bear in mind, however, that not all religious people fit that description. Hell most people in general don't fit that description... But I digress. My point being: As much as you can prove to us that you are an intelligente human being who has thought out his reasons to follow religion (which I respect); you cannot account for all other members of a religion.
Now I think bringing the I.Q. discussion can be dangerous to your claim. For example: Let's say I myself endorse the theory of eugenics; I have arbitrarily decided that a person with an I.Q. under 115 should be considered mentally insuficient to make decisions of their own and thus should be subject to paternalism by the more intelligent part of society. How is this relevant? Well, if you use I.Q. as any sort of indicated you are bound to face opinions like the above and having to defend a group which, as you said, has been found to have an average I.Q. below 100 seems just pathetic and there is no reason why I would take such religious groups seriously.
I'm going to agree with Banhammer H and expand on his Live and let live claim. Don't let the opinions of others get to you. If you enjoy being a Christian the way you conceive the concept, by all means do it. However; I do not deem it wise to defend others who may not understand the same concepts as well as you do by using the same argument. It's not your responsibility to speak for one of the largest regligions present in the world.
PS: For a mind teaser you might want to read "The Ethics by Baruch Spinoza" Cheers!
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I'm an atheist because everything I've ever heard from any religious person in the history of my inquiry into the topic has seemed like utter nonsense. It just doesn't comply with my world view.
I don't blame you for being brain washed by your family, especially since your father and grandfather earned their sustenance from the faith of others. But you're going to have to deal with hearing the arguments against your religion and either accept them or continue to ignore them. You can't just ask atheists to shut up.
Edit: And as far as "atheist" vs "agnostic" is concerned, I don't see any difference between the terms. One simply thinks the probability of there being a God is much less than 50%, and the other thinks it's closer to 50%. Both completely reject organized religion, which is the important part.
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On March 05 2011 16:26 Meta wrote:
I'm an atheist because everything I've ever heard from any religious person in the history of my inquiry into the topic has seemed like utter nonsense. It just doesn't comply with my world view.
I don't blame you for being brain washed by your family, especially since your father and grandfather earned their sustenance from the faith of others. But you're going to have to deal with hearing the arguments against your religion and either accept them or continue to ignore them. You can't just ask atheists to shut up.
Edit: And as far as "atheist" vs "agnostic" is concerned, I don't see any difference between the term. One simply thinks the probability of there being a God is much less than 50%, and the other thinks it's closer to 50%. Both completely reject organized religion, which is the important part.
Agnostics don't believe that there's a 50% chance God exists. -_-
They (or we) believe that God's existence is unknown or unknowable. There's a big difference.
As far as atheists go, I don't think they measure the probability of God's existence either. I mean if you think about it reversely, no Christian would say, "Oh, I believe there's a 98% chance God exists."
Edit: I think you're actually trying to talk about how 'in-tune' people are to each of these 'beliefs,' but it's still strange to describe these feelings quantitatively.
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There are a lot of stupid and ignorant people on both sides of the fence; atheists and theists alike, whatever your religious preference is.
Personally I find the idea of believing in some supernatural logically inconsistent power ruling the universe laughable, and don't feel compelled to conceal this viewpoint for the sake of not offending someone. (My mother is religious and my sister is married to a pastor). I am not so narrow-sighted to evaluate a person's character solely on their religious inclinations - there's much more to a person than that. So we can be friends  . I'm pretty good friends with my mom and sister, and our difference in opinion about religion is a non-issue.
I'll gladly and amicably discuss this to no end so long as there is an engaging dialogue to be had. I don't feel offended by people who hold it against me that I am a 'non-believer'. I know very well what I believe in/don't believe in and why. I suggest you take a similar position so that people don't get to you.
Anyway... moral of the story is: don't let the idiots and trolls who flame you for believing in something get to you. If you want to have a serious discussion about religious beliefs, I would recommend to do so with people who you can trust are not complete morons. The internet is no such domain lol.
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I'm agnostic and I don't troll or antagonize Christians. Two of my best friends are fairly devout Baptists who don't believe in evolution. I don't agree at all, but we never throw down our gloves over that because it's usually neither fun or productive.
Ultimately I wouldn't worry about the failings of those who would judge a rainbow by a color.
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EPT
