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The purpose of this blog is to educate fellow TL members regarding the discrete GPU market and help all SC2 players who are looking to upgrade their GPUs make an informed decision.
Let me start off this blog by stating that I have bought many GPUs from both ATI and Nvidia in the past, I claim loyalty to neither company; I have always bought what offered the best price/performance ratio, richness of features, along with consideration of some other factors (heat output, power requirement, etc). I love competition, I want both ATI and Nvidia to do well so that prices can be kept low and rapid innovation can be ensured.
With that said, I bought into the Radeon 9xxx series against the Nvidia FX5xxx series back in the day (my 9800 pro was light years better than the FX5800/5900 series), then I went with a Geforce 6800 against the Radeon 8xx series (the Radeon 8xx series had neither true HDR nor SM3.0 support). Next, I went with a Geforce 7900GS against the Radeon 1950 PRO, simply due to the fact that both were great cards but the 7900GS had a slightly lower heat output/power requirement, meaning I was able to overclock it further. I went with the Green Team again for the next generation of video cards, I bought a Geforce 8800GT which was in every way superior to the shitty Radeon 2xxx series, even 4 years later the 8800GT still offers very respectable frame rates in most games. As a testament to the success of the Geforce 8800 G80 architecture, the Geforce 9xxx series was simply a shrunken die based on the same architecture, but it was still vastly superior vs the Radeon 3xxx series. I bought a 9800GTX because the ATI messed up the 3xxx once again (the 9800GTX raped the Radeon 3870 in just about every benchmark).
Things looked grim for ATI at this point, but ATI was bought by AMD and finally got their shit together; the Radeon 4xxx series was a tremendous success on ATI's part in comparison to the GT200 series from Nvidia. Offering better power efficiency, lower power draw, higher overclockability, better driver support and features (DX 10.1 vs only DX10 for Nvidia, which improved frame rates considerably in DX10 games), and most importantly, better price/performance ratio. Notably, the GTX280/285 did marginally beat the Radeon 4xxx in term of raw performance, but those cards were so ridiculously overpriced at the time ($500 ~ $600 CAD) that I didn't even bother, I simply spent an extra $30 to buy a better GPU cooler and overclocked my Radeon 4890 to GTX280 specifications for about $200 less ($290 for the card + $30 for the GPU heatsink).
Finally, in the current state of affairs, ATI is looking to drive Nvidia out of the discrete GPU market all together with the release of the Radeon 5xxx series. Partly due to their own engineering success after joining AMD and partly due to the massive fuck-up by Nvidia with the GTX480/Fermi cards, the 5xxx series has driven Nvidia out of the high-end GPU market all together since October of last year (the Radeon 5xxx series was released back in Sept. 2009, but availability did not improve until Oct/Nov of 2009). This time, not only did the Radeon 5850/5870 completely destroy the GTX280/285 cards, but the Red Team did so at lower cost of manufacturing, lower power consumption, better overclockability, AND eyefinity/DirectX 11 support; higher-end Nvidia cards were simply made obsolete right after the release of the Radeon 5xxx cards. At this point, I disapproved immensely of Nvidia's coporate practice; because the GT200 series were now obsolete, Nvidia created an artificial supply shortagein hope of conning naive mainstream customers to keep buying its aging cards. Sadly and apparently, it still works.
Nvidia was SUPPOSED to release the GTX4xxx series 8-9 months ago to compete with the Radeon 5xxx series, but due to hideous yield problems at TSMC and the terrible architecture of the GTX4xxx series, they still have not released a fully functional GTX4xx series card to date. The Geforce GTX480 "available" (you have to pay a $50-$100 premium above it's MSRP to get these cards) right now is a castrated version of the intended Fermi card. As a result, ATI posted a profitable Q4 2009 quarter quarter due to its monopoly on DX11 GPUs, selling millions of cards in a matter of months. Nvidia took a HUGE risk by buying 5000 risk silicon wafers last year in hope of speeding up its GTX4xx cards, but sadly it did not pay off. In fact, yield and engineering problems are so revolting and unfixable that Nvidia had to fake fermi cards to keep investors happy, got dumped by various coporate deals, and had to yet again, castrate its high-end Tesla compute cards which historically offers the highest margins.
I almost lost hope at this point for the Green Team, I had hoped the release of the Fermi cards would be the great success it was hyped up to be and in turn drive down the prices of the Radeon 5xxx series. I currently own a 5850, was hoping to get another one for crossfirex but due to the failures of Nvidia, I still have to wait because the prices on the 5850 cards have been increasing for the past few months  A testament of how much fail there is to be found within Fermi. Even after releasing GTX480 demo cards to mostly pro-nvidia review sites (who cherry-picks benchmarks and skew settings to favour Nvidia cards), the reviews still mostly agree that the fermi cards are huge disappointments. On average, despite being 6-7 months late to the market the GTX480 is only 5-15% faster than the 5870 and 15-30% slower than the Radeon 5970 in the vast majority of benchmarks, but at a 15-30% higher cost while sucking up almost twice as much power and heating up to almost 100C degrees. Admittedly, the 5970 is a dual-GPU card, but that fact does not matter at this point because despite being a dual-GPU card, it uses LESS power than the GTX480 and runs much cooler than the GTX480, meaning you can overclock it higher to get even more performance. And oh yah, with the ridiculous power consumption and heat problems of the GTX480, don't expect Nvidia to release a dual-GPU version of the GTX4xxx series um, ever.
But you might ask, if Nvidia can recover from the massive failures of the FX5xxx series and ATI could bounce back from the shitty Radeon 2xxx and 3xxx series, surely Nvidia can recover from the disastrous GTX4xxx series right? Well, if the 5970 wasn't the nail in the coffin, then this surely must be it. ATI has taped out its next-gen graphic cards, meaning new cards will hit market in roughly 6-8 months time before Nvidia can even release its full line of GTX4xxx cards.
So my question is, WHY ARE PEOPLE STUPID ENOUGH TO CONTINUE TO PURCHASE NVIDIA CARDS at this point in time? Simple. Nvidia has been lying to analysts, shareholders and Green Team fan boys alike ever since Q1 of 2009 dumping massive amounts of money into its PR games rather than ditching the Fermi cards all together to work on a new architecture, and coupled with the success of the Geforce 8xxx and 9xxx series I can only assume that Nvidia fan-boys still trust in the Nvidia "brand name", however laughable it has become in 2009/2010.
 
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i bought 4850 for beta and i'm pretty happy with it...
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so we should just buy an ati then?
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nice write up on the current situation of gpu harware.
I am delaying my GPU upgrade because of what you said: Navida is not giving any competition, and ati is 30% over price because of it.
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I seriously doubt there are that many people buying Nvidia's 4XX line that aren't either ardent Nvidia fanboys or want the best GPU power available.
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GTX 260+ myself, and it is great
Edit: I dont really care about fanboyisms, but your post seems to be mostly opinion tbh.
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On May 08 2010 03:20 Catch]22 wrote:
GTX 260+ myself, and it is great
Edit: I dont really care about fanboyisms, but your post seems to be mostly opinion tbh.
... I backed up almost every one of my claims with a link.
I don't know how to be less opinionated
GTX260 is great if you're upgrading from an older card, as I've mentioned, the GT200 series isn't bad, but the Radeon 4xxx and 5xxx series are better.
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Running a 5850 overclocked. I don't see myself going back to nvidia any time soon.
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I'm not very good with this kinda stuff but i would like some help here. I have a 2-3 year old comp which came with a nvidia geforce 7100, now i dont really know what this means but i would like to know what should i upgrade to in order to play sc2 on at least medium quality without any lag? (currently i am experiencing video lag with all graphic setting on low )
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On May 08 2010 03:11 The6357 wrote:
i bought 4850 for beta and i'm pretty happy with it...
Mine arrived today and I could finally play the beta
everything is on ultra
this is like the first time i have a rig that can do that for a game
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
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On May 08 2010 04:06 ZidaneTribal wrote:I'm not very good with this kinda stuff but i would like some help here. I have a 2-3 year old comp which came with a nvidia geforce 7100, now i dont really know what this means but i would like to know what should i upgrade to in order to play sc2 on at least medium quality without any lag? (currently i am experiencing video lag with all graphic setting on low )
It'd be more helpful if you could post your system specifications, just go into Start Menu - > Run - > Type in "dxdiag" to look up your CPU, RAM, GPU, etc. info.
I'll assume you have a E5xxx series or Athlon X2 series CPU from 2-3 years ago, which is sufficient for playing SC2 on medium settings. Your bottleneck however is your Geforce 7100, which is an integrated GPU that was never meant for gaming.
Your best bet would be to get a Radeon 4850 which run for around ~$90 which could play SC2 on high/ultra settings, and anything from a Radeon 4670/4770 ($35 - $50) will run SC2 on medium-high settings with minimal lag (stay away from the Geforce GT210/220, those are terrible cards). Before you buy a new video card, make sure to check your power supply (PSU) to see if it will support the new GPUs.
Hope that helps
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Quoting Charlie from semmi accurate is quoting a ATI fanatic.
Seriously hes a rumor mill equivalent to quoting faud from fudzilla except he actually has a mind to tectonically knowledge so he doesn't seem like a rabid fanatic.
Also the GTX470 is a better deal in terms of performance per start cost. the 470 handles AntiA much better then 5850 can along with having much stronger performance in DX11 titles it's a more future proof item.
Also if you're cross firing to SLI, SLI has a scaling between 70-98% while ATI has scaling if you're not counting the instances where you loose fps 30-70%
SLI vs crossfiring scaling is so shitty that the cost of a GTX480 per performance vs a 5870 crossfire puts the GTX 480 a ways ahead.
You gloss over how the GTX480 handles DX11 better and high levels of AA a ton better then a 5870 can.
At sub 200 price a 5770 is ideal then it gets muky where you are and what can you get where the GTS250 vs 4850 etc.
In the US it pretty much goes
GTS250 vs 4850 1 gig version w.e you can get cheapest
5770
the 4870 and 260 are EOL are are costly as hell to find
470 vs 5850 the price diff may cause people to choose one over the other but the 470 is more future proof then a 5850 so i'd go with a 470
5870 vs 480, the 5870 price/performance is much better then a 480
5850 vs 470 crossfire/sli 470 sli it's a stronger more future proof package
5970 overpriced under-performing crap even a 5850 crossfire beats it, only thing it saves you is a slot on your mobo and maybe a few dollar in a year on your electric bill.
5870 crossfire vs 480 sli, i'd go with 480 sli better scaling more consistent performance also at that price why are you not going super high end
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2 x 5770 has a quite sick performance/price ratio atm.
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On May 08 2010 04:30 semantics wrote:
Quoting Charlie from semmi accurate is quoting a ATI fanatic.
Seriously hes a rumor mill equivalent to quoting faud from fudzilla except he actually has a mind to tectonically knowledge so he doesn't seem like a rabid fanatic.
Also the GTX470 is a better deal in terms of performance per start cost. the 470 handles AntiA much better then 5850 can along with having much stronger performance in DX11 titles it's a more future proof item.
Also if you're cross firing to SLI, SLI has a scaling between 70-98% while ATI has scaling if you're not counting the instances where you loose fps 30-70%
SLI vs crossfiring scaling is so shitty that the cost of a GTX480 per performance vs a 5870 crossfire puts the GTX 480 a ways ahead.
You gloss over how the GTX480 handles DX11 better and high levels of AA a ton better then a 5870 can.
At sub 200 price a 5770 is ideal then it gets muky where you are and what can you get where the GTS250 vs 4850 etc.
In the US it pretty much goes
GTS250 vs 4850 1 gig version w.e you can get cheapest
5770
the 4870 and 260 are EOL are are costly as hell to find
470 vs 5850 the price diff may cause people to choose one over the other but the 470 is more future proof then a 5850 so i'd go with a 470
5870 vs 480, the 5870 price/performance is much better then a 480
5850 vs 470 crossfire/sli 470 sli it's a stronger more future proof package
5970 overpriced under-performing crap even a 5850 crossfire beats it, only thing it saves you is a slot on your mobo and maybe a few dollar in a year on your electric bill.
5870 crossfire vs 480 sli, i'd go with 480 sli better scaling more consistent performance also at that price why are you not going super high end
Please back up your highly opinionated and unsubstantiated claims with benchmarks like I have, then we'll talk.
If you were to argue the merits of the GT200 series then you might have a case, but arguing for the GTX4xx series against the 5xxx clearly shows you've bought into Nvidia marketing and knows next to nothing regarding the GPU industry.
But then again, judging from the abundance of grammatical and spelling errors in your post, I shouldn't be too harsh on a 10 year old.
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Actually i have checked the prices of the 4XX on Newegg and it is seems that Nvidia is way more competitive in the US than in Europe :p
I still give the edge to Ati though.
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People who are looking to buy mid-range cards shouldn't really care about this at all, though. Prices vary often with deals and mail-in rebates and shit, and the only reliable sources for determining whether one card is better than another are benchmarks directly comparing the two. You can't ever just recommend to someone, "the 5xxx series is better than the GT200 series" because, while it may more often be the case that ATI provides better price/performance in those lines, it can still vary - depending on the prices of the retailer, the specific model from each series you're considering, the manufacturers' ability to install their own goddamn heatsinks correctly, etc.
I mean I totally agree that ATI is outperforming nvidia at the moment, but I would say to someone looking for a cheap new GPU for SC2 that they should research benchmarks themselves rather than just blindly preferring one company over another.
(also BTW the 3D graphics industry always prefers nvidia cards because the drivers they write have better support for 3D modeling applications... to answer in part why people still buy nvidia)
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On May 08 2010 04:40 SoManyDeadLings wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2010 04:30 semantics wrote:
Quoting Charlie from semmi accurate is quoting a ATI fanatic.
Seriously hes a rumor mill equivalent to quoting faud from fudzilla except he actually has a mind to tectonically knowledge so he doesn't seem like a rabid fanatic.
Also the GTX470 is a better deal in terms of performance per start cost. the 470 handles AntiA much better then 5850 can along with having much stronger performance in DX11 titles it's a more future proof item.
Also if you're cross firing to SLI, SLI has a scaling between 70-98% while ATI has scaling if you're not counting the instances where you loose fps 30-70%
SLI vs crossfiring scaling is so shitty that the cost of a GTX480 per performance vs a 5870 crossfire puts the GTX 480 a ways ahead.
You gloss over how the GTX480 handles DX11 better and high levels of AA a ton better then a 5870 can.
At sub 200 price a 5770 is ideal then it gets muky where you are and what can you get where the GTS250 vs 4850 etc.
In the US it pretty much goes
GTS250 vs 4850 1 gig version w.e you can get cheapest
5770
the 4870 and 260 are EOL are are costly as hell to find
470 vs 5850 the price diff may cause people to choose one over the other but the 470 is more future proof then a 5850 so i'd go with a 470
5870 vs 480, the 5870 price/performance is much better then a 480
5850 vs 470 crossfire/sli 470 sli it's a stronger more future proof package
5970 overpriced under-performing crap even a 5850 crossfire beats it, only thing it saves you is a slot on your mobo and maybe a few dollar in a year on your electric bill.
5870 crossfire vs 480 sli, i'd go with 480 sli better scaling more consistent performance also at that price why are you not going super high end Please back up your highly opinionated and unsubstantiated claims with benchmarks like I have, then we'll talk. If you were to argue the merits of the GT200 series then you might have a case, but arguing for the GTX4xx series against the 5xxx clearly shows you've bought into Nvidia marketing and knows next to nothing regarding the GPU industry. But then again, judging from the abundance of grammatical and spelling errors in your post, I shouldn't be too harsh on a 10 year old.
Nice to see who is the fanboy here, is it the one listing his opinion, well no because both of us are doing it, how about the one who sees someone disagree and instead of reaffirming his points he makes a personal attack.Considering your shoved your opinion and used a bias history to sell ATI and ATI all the way and then acted like it's neutral party...
Maybe not in canada but you can get a 5850 for 300 and a 470 for 350, if you're going for a card for DX11 why not go with the 470 which produces more consistent results then a 5850 under dx11 along with under AA
If i was going crossfire vs sli, sli all the way much stronger performance per dollar in the US see how you miss that mr canada. Hell i could go what you get in Mexico then it would def be your way as if you bought a GTX 480 in mexico vs a 5870 it would be something like 550 bucks for the 5870 in US currency then about 750+ bucks for the GTX480 yeah shit those prices not everywhere is the same, too bad most the teamliquid is in the US
I said US get that across your head.
The GTX260 275 4870 4890 are pointless arguments even if you can find you your probably going to find one used, if you find it new it's probably going to be like 200+ dollar well over it's worth. If you want to argue how the 4870 has one of the best AA system in place for it's time well that's true, if you want a 4870 vs a 260 a 4870 would be better in performance, but too shitting bad those are EOL they aren't on the market anymore zeesh the 5770 is the only thing in the market at that price range.
If you want to talk US about the 4850 vs GTS 250 it's about what you can find cheaper a GTS 250 is a bit stronger then a 4850 so if the 4850 is 10+ dollars cheaper probably go with that else go with a GTS 250
Also shut up about that 5-15% crap.
On avg the 470 pulls 10.35% more fps then a 5850 which is only 7.35% under a 5870
on avg the 480 pulls 15.49% more fps then a 5870
Under settings that matter the AA and AF enabled settings
![[image loading]](http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/2112/gfxcomparerev2smallpng.jpg)
What are you going to do talk about power requirements and usage perhaps just a few dollars at the end of the year's bill, the fact is unless you game everyday for 4+ hours at which point your electric bill will automatically be high you're only adding a few dollars to your electric bill in the US esp if you live in a mid western state, also under normal usage the 480 470 doesn't use too much more power then a 5870 or a 5850, any result concerning furmark for the 5870 and 5850 is bull as it has a voltage protection system in place that will cap it under an application such as that you have to use another source to show power difference.
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I have a 5770 and it rapes everything (in a good way) that i play or watch. :D
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EPT![[image loading]](http://media.industrygamers.com/galleries/39/destructoid-dot-com-fanboy-anatomy.jpg)
