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On February 15 2009 01:03 TechniQ.UK wrote:
Well yes I can.
The people arent going to hell not because God has denied them something, but because the love their sin and cherish it and are guilty.
but you just said they were only saved by god choosing them, not by repenting or them accepting god. if it doesnt matter if they repent, why does it matter if they love the sin? those are opposite ends of the same thing. if one doesnt matter the other shouldnt.
Predestination doesn't change the fact that they are guilty of not walking in the light of the law written on their heart and the testimony of nature that God is real.
what part of nature testifies that god is real?
you know why every pro athlete has knee surgery at some point in their life? its cuz our knee isnt designed for walking upright. its adapted from a structure designed for walking on all fours. theres a billion other such examples in nature. all nature testifies is that your god is a fuckin horrible engineer.
predestination means they have no control over what happens to them, how can you hold someone guilty for something they had no control over?
We aren't talking about sinless little heathens all waiting to go to heaven but God is refusing them access, no we're talking about monsters of immorality who hate God, don't look for him, and utterly refuse to walk in the light of their conscious and who when offered the gospel hate it, hate the idea of a Just and Holy God who has laws and rules and hate the gospel and reject it.
which part of my post is this addressing? i was talking about sinless heathens, because by your standards they should be ending up in hell just for believing in the wrong god, which is a direct result of being born in the wrong section of the world, which they have no control over.
they dont hate the idea of all that bullshit you just said, they love allah more than you love god. i dont see you offering to blow yourself up to do god's bidding. they just got the wrong god because they were born into the wrong religion.
God owes no one anything, in fact we ALL deserve hell. You should find it a miracle that he has saved millions or even billions of human beings from eternal hell even though they hated him and despised his gospel and we're born and matured into monsters of immorality.
see
this is why religion should be abolished
you probably werent insane when you were born
now look at you
why do we all deserve hell? mother theresa deserved hell because 2 people ate an apple in a garden a couple of thousand years ago? what?
btw you skipped huge chunks of my post. please address them.
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Mindcrime - They're guilty of doing what they were predestined to do?
No predestination is only ever mentioned in the context of believers, unbelievers are not predestined to do anything, they are basically left to their life of sin. They aren't predestined to be sinners but they are born that way and hate God because they are evil and he is good.
Sinners are commanded to repent and believe but they refuse to. If anyone on earth repents and believes the gospel they will be saved. That is a promise in the bible.
Now I'm a pretty moderate Calvinist. 1) I believe many many people are called and can accept Jesus, in fact every single person who reads a gospel tract or hears the gospel preached I believe if they repent and believe the gospel after reading and hearing can and will be saved because these are the means by which the Holy Spirit almost always works, the foolishness of preachers and the blessed word of God. However if they utterly refuse the Holy Spirit to convict them of their sins when they're listening/reading and reject the gospel and the word of God then they won't be saved at that time.
God works through the "foolishness of preaching" but to be a preacher you must be called, and to be called it must be of God and then all of those people listening to the preacher I believe at that point, if they accept the word of God, and keep it with all patience and act on it then they can and will be saved(luke 8:13-15 speaks about the word on good soil). However if they hear the gospel and utterly reject it or let they're love of sin overwrite what they just heard in the preachers message of repentance and believing then they remain on their path to hell.
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On February 15 2009 01:03 TechniQ.UK wrote:
As for you idra, salvation is dependent on God and I'll make no apologies for that. Does it shock you that human beings are not in charge and are not of a higher authority than God?
dont care where the power lies. however you yourself have said that god is just. what is just about choosing at random who he saves? if it is not at random, how are the decisions made? you have said that it is irrelevant if the criminal is repentant. its only decided by gods will. well, what decides gods will?
However thankfully God is not like man, he doesn't change his mind every second, he cannot lie and he never changes. So salvation is dependant on the will of a merciful, graceful, loving, tender-hearted who abounds in love and forgiveness and mercy for sinners. A never changing Father who so loved the world that he gave his own son to die for hell-deserving unrepentant and helpless sinners.
why does such a merciful loving god who controls all of us at his mere whim allow the little girl to be raped and murdered in the first place? you said god can choose to change a persons heart. youve talked about predestination. so you've basically said god can do w/etf he wants with us and free will doesnt exist. so then, how does a good and loving god who controls us all allow people to suffer? he either does not have absolute power over us or he is not good. which is it?
The reason Jesus can pay for sins is because he is God's son and is God the son of the trinity. Therefore he is of infinitely more worth than any amount of humans. A normal man could never of died for the sins of the world but God the son becoming a man, taking our sins upon that cross then suffering even the punishments of hell for the human race on that cross.
you do realize you're saying absolutely nothing right?
how did jesus' suffering change any of our guilt for our sins? if i stab you in the face, i stabbed you in the face. i deserve to be punished for doing something bad. jesus dying doesnt change that.
also you didnt address the contradiction in your points. jesus suffered for us and in doing so absolved our sins. but we're all still guilty of sin and can be punished for it if god doesnt accept us. so either we arent absolved because of jesus.. or we're innocent and being punished anyway. either way it doesnt make sense.
As for the homosexual thing, yes the preacher should cover that, but the way you put it was asif the teenager was getting verbally abused personally by this preacher. Preaching is always done to convict people of sin not out of some malice or anger but out of love that the person would turn from sin and trust Jesus and be saved from everlasting punishment for their wickedness.
did i say it would come of malice or anger? does that change anything?
you're still torturing the boy, whether you mean well or not.
Jesus was enough to pay the price of sin for all sin however it's only made effectual when someone repents and believes. If it we're any other way then sinners would never accept Jesus and go on living in sin wilfully ignoring Jesus and saying "Look he's paid for it, lets sin more there isn't any punishment at the end!" which would then mean probably people raping and killing people and being as wicked as they liked because heaven was at the end for them anyway.
first off you're a pretty sad person if you think everyone would go around raping and killing just because they didnt think theyd go to hell in the end. how did humanity survive before god came to them if that is our base state? you think society survived years of everyone running around killing and stealing and whatnot until god decided to set us straight?
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On February 15 2009 01:25 TechniQ.UK wrote:
Mindcrime - They're guilty of doing what they were predestined to do?
No predestination is only ever mentioned in the context of believers, unbelievers are not predestined to do anything, they are basically left to their life of sin. They aren't predestined to be sinners but they are born that way and hate God because they are evil and he is good.
why are they born evil?
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United States22883 Posts
TechniQ.UK definitely has hardcore views, but for a lot of people, especially Protestants, the ministry extends far beyond the pulpit and for that they live extremely meaningful lives and serve the community better than 99% of citizens, helping the poor, etc.
I don't believe being a Christian is supposed to be about telling people God is judging them or that they're going to Hell. As a minister, who I respect more than nearly everyone else on Earth, once told me, "there's nothing wrong with being an atheist."
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dont care where the power lies. however you yourself have said that god is just. what is just about choosing at random who he saves? if it is not at random, how are the decisions made? you have said that it is irrelevant if the criminal is repentant. its only decided by gods will. well, what decides gods will? - Idra
- He doesn't make them at random, how he makes the decision is unknown to everyone and the bible. As for it being irrelevant if the criminal repents or not. Well no what I'm saying is the criminal will never truely repent unless God has something to do with it. E.g. sending a preacher filled with the Holy Spirit or in his divine providence having a bible open somewhere or having a gospel tract in sight.
Free will does exist but man is born with a sinful nature ever since Adam and eve made the free will decision to disobey God, but where his will is against ours I think that he according to his most gracious council will change our wills ever so subtly. So no God is not in control of everyone at every moment forcing them to do his will. Man has free will which he uses to sin against God constantly, (just look at the 10 commandments, if your outside of Christ your in disobedience to the first commandment every second of your life) until God saves a person from their own nature after the Holy Spirit works through the foolishness of preaching and the sinner repents and believes. That's why christianity is not rule following, rule following says that you follow these rules and you'll go to heaven by your own will and power, the bible says give up on your own righteousness which is actually filthy rags in the sight of God and trust in the righteousness of another, God the son himself, Jesus Christ and trust in him alone.
As for predestination it only concerns the believers, I already told you he lets the sinners get on with it and no where in his word did he say the little girl was under his divine protection? At the end of the day if you say that God was under obligation to stop the rape of the little girl, is he also obligated to save people from dying? Theft? is he obligated to stop murder? He was able and willing to do all these things until sin happened with adam and eve. Ever since then, he has no obligation to do anything for people who are born sinners because when adam and eve fell man became corrupted by sin. It may seem harsh but at the end of the day it would be a lot lot worse if God wasn't sovereignly restraining the majority of evil in this world.
As for the atonement of Jesus. Jesus wasn't effective because the romans made him suffer on a cross. Jesus Christ took the guilt of our sin upon himself on the cross, took the sins of me upon him. At that moment it said that the land went dark for 3 hours, later Jesus cried out my God my God why have you forsaken me? Do you know why? Jesus who took my sin upon that cross, suffered the pure wrath of God upon that cross for every sin I've ever committed that would of fallen on me if I had died and went to hell.
See if God is just there needs to be a punishment to sin, so the only way I'm going to get forgiveness of sins is if someone else takes that punishment from God the Father. That's where Jesus comes in, the only pure man, the only perfectly Holy Lamb of God who could make the perfect atonement for sins because he himself was absolutely pure.
Then Jesus cried out "It is finished". Effectively stating the guiltiness and death pentalty of sin has been fully paid for every sinner who repents and believes and then he died, rose on the 3rd day by the power of God and later ascended up to heaven. This proved he is and was the son of God, that his words we're absolultly trustworthy and that the price had been paid. He then later ascended up to heaven to sit by the right hand of the Father.
Romans 8:33
Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised— who is at the right hand of God,who indeed is interceding for us.
This verse shows 1) no one can lay guilt of sin at the feet of the elect (those in Christ) because the price of their sin and the punishment has all been paid in full by Christ.
2) They cannot be condemned and God will not condemn them because it is christ who died on that cross in our place as a propitiation.
3) Jesus is raised up showing that Jesus is no longer suffering for our sins but is restored back to his former glory that he had before the foundation of the world why? because he is the eternal God. God the son, 2nd part of the trinity. The Father being the first and the Holy Spirit being the 3rd. Co-equal, co-eternal working in absolute harmony.
Amen
Oh and these views aren't really hardcore, this is the views of every presbyterian, baptist, charismatic, evangelical church that hasn't become liberal and it's the historical interpretation of the scriptures we have from the early church and ever since reformation times and upwards.
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On February 15 2009 06:54 TechniQ.UK wrote:
dont care where the power lies. however you yourself have said that god is just. what is just about choosing at random who he saves? if it is not at random, how are the decisions made? you have said that it is irrelevant if the criminal is repentant. its only decided by gods will. well, what decides gods will? - Idra
- He doesn't make them at random, how he makes the decision is unknown to everyone and the bible. As for it being irrelevant if the criminal repents or not. Well no what I'm saying is the criminal will never truely repent unless God has something to do with it. E.g. sending a preacher filled with the Holy Spirit or in his divine providence having a bible open somewhere or having a gospel tract in sight. so then we're back to predestination for the sinners.
if the criminal cant repent without god choosing them, they dont have control over their own fate.
you explicitly said last post that sinners and unbelievers are left to their own devices and only believers are predestined. which is it?
Free will does exist but man is born with a sinful nature ever since Adam and eve made the free will decision to disobey God, but where his will is against ours I think that he according to his most gracious council will change our wills ever so subtly. So no God is not in control of everyone at every moment forcing them to do his will. Man has free will which he uses to sin against God constantly, (just look at the 10 commandments, if your outside of Christ your in disobedience to the first commandment every second of your life) until God saves a person from their own nature after the Holy Spirit works through the foolishness of preaching and the sinner repents and believes. That's why christianity is not rule following, rule following says that you follow these rules and you'll go to heaven by your own will and power, the bible says give up on your own righteousness which is actually filthy rags in the sight of God and trust in the righteousness of another, God the son himself, Jesus Christ and trust in him alone.
how did adam and eve disobeying (just eve actually, iirc) god make me sinful? i had no control over what they did. how can i be held responsible? (could you actually answer this this time? ive asked it like 3 or 4 times)
if god can change our will we do not have free will. thats pretty obvious, it doesnt matter how much he chooses to exert his influence, as long as he does choose to exert it some of the time.
also you dropped the 'only exerts it on believers' argument in your last paragraph when you said sinners cant repent without 'god having something to do with it' so obviously he does affect the will of sinners as well.
as for the rest of that, isnt that fucking retarded? why is it more important to believe in jesus and god than to be good people?
As for predestination it only concerns the believers, I already told you he lets the sinners get on with it and no where in his word did he say the little girl was under his divine protection? At the end of the day if you say that God was under obligation to stop the rape of the little girl, is he also obligated to save people from dying? Theft? is he obligated to stop murder? He was able and willing to do all these things until sin happened with adam and eve. Ever since then, he has no obligation to do anything for people who are born sinners because when adam and eve fell man became corrupted by sin. It may seem harsh but at the end of the day it would be a lot lot worse if God wasn't sovereignly restraining the majority of evil in this world.
why would the little girl have to be under his divine protection? lets assume shes 'under the age of culpability' or whatever you said, so by christian standards shes innocent, since she'll go to heaven. why should an innocent little girl suffer and die when god (a good, kind, loving god) has the power and the willingness (as shown by the fact that you admit he does alter people's wills, even sinners) to prevent it? remember, god is omnicient and omnipresent and everything else, its not like he just didnt see her getting raped.
he is obligated by the fact that, as you have said, hes a good kind loving god. such a god would not want his creations to suffer. and yet he allows them to suffer quite a bit. doesnt really make sense?
how does what adam and eve did affect me? is god a spiteful little child or something? some woman ate an apple so now, even though he loves us all greatly, he doesnt give a fuck what happens to us, the people he created?
As for the atonement of Jesus. Jesus wasn't effective because the romans made him suffer on a cross. Jesus Christ took the guilt of our sin upon himself on the cross, took the sins of me upon him. At that moment it said that the land went dark for 3 hours, later Jesus cried out my God my God why have you forsaken me? Do you know why? Jesus who took my sin upon that cross, suffered the pure wrath of God upon that cross for every sin I've ever committed that would of fallen on me if I had died and went to hell.
what does that even mean? 'took the sins'
jesus has nothing to do with you. if you commit a sin, you commit a sin. that makes you, in some ways, a bad person, you have still caused harm to another person. you dont deserve to be punished for that?
See if God is just there needs to be a punishment to sin, so the only way I'm going to get forgiveness of sins is if someone else takes that punishment from God the Father. That's where Jesus comes in, the only pure man, the only perfectly Holy Lamb of God who could make the perfect atonement for sins because he himself was absolutely pure.
why does someone else taking punishment atone for your sins?
YOU are the one who sinned, you are the one who should be punished. someone else being punished MAKES NO SENSE
Romans 8:33
Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised— who is at the right hand of God,who indeed is interceding for us.
This verse shows 1) no one can lay guilt of sin at the feet of the elect (those in Christ) because the price of their sin and the punishment has all been paid in full by Christ.
no. it hasnt. if they did something wrong then they are bad people unless they have done something to atone for it. christ dying does nothing to change that.
2) They cannot be condemned and God will not condemn them because it is christ who died on that cross in our place as a propitiation.
they should be condemned. they did something bad. the only way society works is for bad people to be punished.
next time you post please respond properly, the way ive been doing. all you're doing is posting half sermons that arent actually aimed at anything and are full of utter non sense. break my post up into sections and quote and specifically respond to each one. you're ignoring half my points and arent actually addressing anything you do talk about.
and once again
why is man born evil? dont say because of adam and eve, that is not a why. what has each individual person done to deserve to be born a sinner?
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United States22883 Posts
You accept the subjective interpretations of rich, white men from 400 years ago at face value. That is pretty hardcore.
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white men from 400 years ago at face value - isn't this what the majority of secular world does with teachers, television and the media? plus I don't accept them at face value, I wrestle with the calvinist / arminianism arguement several times a month.
What has man done to be born a sinner? well adam and eve are the first parents, therefore their offspring are absolutely affected by the sin. God could not simply speak the sin out of existance like he spoke the world into existance, the problem was so great it took the death of his own son. Jesus is the only solution to the sin problem, any other way is boastfulness and vanity and will not help at all.
As for your interpretation of the scriptures Idra, if you believe that the guilty deserve their punishment and God was wrong in sending his own son to atone for sins then heres what the bible says about you and im sure you know the punishment.
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
"Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
that condemns every human being under sin. and if you think being a good person is what counts then.....
6(C) We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of WORKS, lest any man should boast.
You cant pay the debt of your sin off, you have utterly nothing in your hands to bring to a God who has everything, salvation can only come from his own goodness and work on the cross.
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i see you chose to ignore my request and continue posting in a way that allows you to avoid addressing everything im saying. thank you for that.
On February 15 2009 23:09 TechniQ.UK wrote:
What has man done to be born a sinner? well adam and eve are the first parents, therefore their offspring are absolutely affected by the sin. God could not simply speak the sin out of existance like he spoke the world into existance, the problem was so great it took the death of his own son. Jesus is the only solution to the sin problem, any other way is boastfulness and vanity and will not help at all.
isnt god omnipotent? how can there be something he cant do?
that aside, how can a parent's guilt be passed along to its child? the child had no control over what the parent did, how can it be held responsible?
and, once afuckinggain, how does jesus dying do anything to atone for anyones sins? he died. whoopy. hes the 'son of god'. whoopy. axe murderer's victims all feel better because of that? dont think so.
As for your interpretation of the scriptures Idra, if you believe that the guilty deserve their punishment and God was wrong in sending his own son to atone for sins then heres what the bible says about you and im sure you know the punishment.
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
"Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
that condemns every human being under sin. and if you think being a good person is what counts then.....
6(C) We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of WORKS, lest any man should boast.
You cant pay the debt of your sin off, you have utterly nothing in your hands to bring to a Godwho has everything, salvation can only come from his own goodness and work on the cross.
dont quote scripture at me, its meaningless to anyone with a brain.
people do deserve punishment for the sins they HAVE COMMITED. not the original sin bullshit. and yes, real sins can be atoned for or payed for. you do something bad, you either do something good like community service or you go to jail. thats how the real world works.
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United States22883 Posts
You've excused your mindlessness by saying the masses are mindless as well? Think about what you just said.
The Bible was written over a long span of time by many different men, each with different opinions, translated many times by different men and yet you take it as a literal guideline. You're just as reliant on the effort of the most recent translator as you are of God, if not moreso.
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No I actually said I don't take these theologians at face value Jibba if you'd care to read my post again.
Anyway idra k heres the deal and I'm not saying this out of anger or anything like that I'm simply responding theres no need to get all heated up to be honest. :
1) Man is born in a depraved nature that cannot understand the things of God and loves sin. They're born like that as a consequence of the sin of Adam and eve and the fall of humanity from God.
Now what a sin nature means is this, holiness is absolutely abstract to you, even if your religious, inwardly your absolutely blind to God, most of the time making Gods in your own image foreign to scripture and denying the existence of God to justify your sin and to live life your own way.
So a sin nature we are born with as a consequence of Adam and eve, ok thats a fact. Now what does a sin nature produce? Sin. What does sin produce? Death.
So your not being punished because you have original sin from Adam and eve for something you didn't do, but for what you do with your free will as a result of that because you refuse to walk in the light of the law of God written in your heart, trade in the truth of God for philosophy or false gods. If anyone turns to Jesus, and turns away from sin they will be saved it's a guarentee but the bible says you won't because your deeds are evil. Basically your too embarrassed and too prideful to say ok I have sinned and I'm guilty to God and to give up the filth.
2) isnt god omnipotent? how can there be something he cant do? - Idra
in a sense God can do all things, but he
a) does not violate his perfect nature and character. For example I could go and kill a child, as in im physically able to, but of course my morals and character means its impossible for me.
b) Does not violate the scripture which he inspired. 66 books of the bible.
3) how does Jesus dying do anything to atone for anyones sins? - Idra
Well you have the wrong idea, Jesus didnt die to bring some reconciliation to axe murderers victims. It was God the son dying in my place satisfying the justice, not of man but of God the Father.
Well I'll give you a brief history of the OT. In Jewish law and such that came from moses from God, there was several different rituals. One was to take a pure clean lamb, and for everyone to lay their hands upon it thus having their sins imparted on to that lamb, that lamb was then killed and it's blood spilled as an offering to God, thus atoning for the sins of those people who imparted their guilt on to that animal sacrifice.
We learn in the new testament that this was all a picture of what was to be revealed, the true lamb of God. Jesus Christ who takes away the sin of the world.
So my sins, past, present and future went on to the pure lamb the son of God on that cross he bore them. OK so that's the imparting part, now comes the atoning part, Jesus then suffered wrath at the hand of his Father that was stored up for the day of judgment for me and my sins. All the Holy anger and wrath of God that I deserve fell upon Jesus that day, canceling my guilt and debt because Jesus paid it in full and God won't punish sin twice, his perfect justice was satisfied(now I want you to keep in mind, Jesus wasn't doing this grudgingly he willingly came, in essence the full trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit were working in harmony to save sinners then and still are today). Jesus then said it is finished meaning essentially the price is paid, rose again to show that he is the son of God and also to start the church and also to show that God was no longer punishing Jesus but the atonement had been made. If Jesus didn't rise again then one would have to assume the work of atonement is still on going for sin or Jesus isn't the son of God but he did.
This kind of explains it
4(G) Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
(H) smitten by God, and afflicted.
5(I) But he was wounded for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
(J) and with his stripes we are healed.
6(K) All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
(L) and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
Anyway just chill out idra it's only a conversation im not here to make you angry and to go crazy or get militant.
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United States22883 Posts
I did. You are reading and interpreting the work of a men who lived a millennium away from when the events in the New Testament took place. It gets even worse when looking at the Old Testament.
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i am not getting 'heated up'
you just dont realize how stupid you sound to anyone unwilling to accept completely irrational premises on the word of old men who lived hundreds of years ago.
1. so then god is an unfair bitter baby? because some woman ate an apple thousands of years ago we all have to be born evil? what makes sense about that?
and you still havent answered the 'why' of how a parents actions pre-birth affect the makeup of a child's character. if adam and eve doing evil causes their descendants to have an evil nature, why arent the children of humanitarians and whatnot (or people who have been saved by god and so are now innocent and good) born with a 'good nature'?
2."God could not simply speak the sin out of existance like he spoke the world into existance, the problem was so great it took the death of his own son." you said the problem was so great it took the death of his son. 'so great' implies it was beyond his power to do it on his own. doesnt sound like omnipotence to me. and what in his perfect character would prevent him from releaving the human race of a burden that they have no responsibility for? it seems to me that hes being an asshole to hold us accountable for something we had no power over. and he is indeed holding us accountable for it, despite your claims about jesus, because you claim we are all still born evil.
3. you know what the term 'scapegoat' means? and where it came from?
you're missing the whole point of punishment and atonement. when you do something bad you are responsible for it. saying 'ok i place my sins on this lamb/son of god lets make it suffer in my place' does not change anything. you have still done something bad (something worse now that you killed an innocent for no reason) that you have not paid for. how is it justice for an innocent person to die in place of a guilty one? dont spew some bullshit about the sins being placed on him. sins are not some abstract thing, we're talking about the responsibility for doing something bad.
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if it takes acknowledgement of christ for absolution, what happened to all those south african and east asian people who didnt know about christianity until past 1000 AD? did they all go to hell and never have a chance for absolution?
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ive asked him similar questions a few times, he just ignores it
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No I'm afraid your missing the whole concept of punishment and atonement. Sin in the greek effectively means lawlessness, lawlessness = there must be a law to start with, the law of God.
So sin = something in rebellion to Gods laws.
OK so you violate God's law the punishment comes from God which is hell at the end of the road, OK so everyone has violated God's law willingly, therefore the only way a sinner is going to pay for his sins is either him suffering in hell or someone suffering in his place, that was Jesus on the cross.
Don't know whats so hard for you to understand about that but oh well.
As for the woman eating that apple, go read the context etc... before you over simplify the story.
The woman believed a lie that she could become like God by eating the fruit and disobeyed a direct order even though it was a completely free will choice and they had eternal life in the garden of eden, bliss, direct fellowship with God and no evil.
As for this business with people being born into a sinful nature, God isn't doing it to each person individually or something as some kind of active punishment, no, the woman sinned, human nature was corrupted by human free will, sin entered humanity corrupting it and God again, kept true to his promise that he made when he gave the law not to eat the fruit and left the human race to it, however God said even in the garden of eden that basically a saviour was coming, he could of tossed us into hell or destroyed the human race right there and he would have been perfectly just and loving but he didn't.
I mean God doesn't owe anyone anything, we are the ones who have sinned against a good God who created us for HIM, he did not create us so we could criticize and use him. You seem to think 1) that the human race is equally if not more important compared to God
2) God owes us some massive favor
3) God is here to please the human race.
God is not a means to anyone's end and he's not going to be ever. God is a holy God and you only need to look at the 10 commandments to find out that your not. In fact forget the 10 commandments look around you, how is your lust, anger, jealousy, pride doing in comparison to holiness? No one forced you to sin.
For example a rapist, he has the same sin nature as you, what separates him from you? He made a free will choice to rape, God didn't force him nor did his birth. So sin is free will. Started with adam and eve and continues to today.
and as for africans not knowing Jesus and going to hell I'm glad you brought it up.
You see if calvinism and God's sovereignty in saving sinners we're not true, you would be right, and those sinners in africa would never have a chance to be saved. Thankfully salvation is of the Lord and he hasn't left it up to corrupt mankind to choose or reject him.
I want you to think about this for a second,
if God isn't sovereingly making provisions and choosing to save lost people, then theres only 2 more sources of decision making who decide who gets saved.
man who we have already established is unholy, loves sin and wants to stay in it just like you idra and me before God saved me.
or the devil who would have us all killed.
So good God or evil man with a sin nature, who would you leave it up to?
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how does god choose for the people who don't know about him though
like sinners who never have the opportunity to learn about god/jesus, how are they supposed to know not to sin? how are they supposed to know even what a sin is?
also you talk as if we owe everything to god, as if existence is, by its very nature, a positive, which could be disputed. what do you say of an infant born to die? what do you say of people born to contract horrible diseases and die under excruciating circumstances that are of no fault of their own? i definitely wouldn't say life is unequivocally better than nonexistence, especially for the people i've mentioned. what do they owe to god?
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If God is going to save someone in Africa about 1000 AD like you said he'll find a way. SpiritofTunA
For example muslims in heavily persecuted countries where Christianity is basically outlawed, have had conversion experiences where they've had dreams which were about a man in white which they often later find out is Jesus a bit like a Damascus road experience with the apostle Paul. God will move heaven and earth to save one sinner.
how are they supposed to know not to sin? how are they supposed to know even what a sin is?
human morality, your conscience in other words. The bible calls it the law of God written on your heart. Refusing to do whats right by your conscience and the feeling of guilt that stems from it, refusing to abide by your conscience by free will testifies against them when they walk not according to it and makes them guilty as sinners as Jews in Jerusalem who had the written law of moses and disobeyed.
Also again looking at nature, calculating there is a God and then either ignoring him, saying he doesn't exist therefore effectively making man his own god or making graven images and false religions that are always about what God can do for you and never what you do for God.
As for your whole scientific arguments against God and using that as excuse to remove the guilt of sin from yourselves. How about the 300+ prophecies for filled by Jesus that were written hundreds of years before his birth? No religious book like that on earth not the quran or anything else. What about the majority view of scholars absolutely agreeing that Jesus really was crucified in Jerusalem by pontius pilate by roman secular historians who were known to individually be very very careful with their details and accuracy.
There is a well backed up case for the historical Jesus. Not to mention the fact that somehow from before Jesus's resurrection we had a band of disciples who we're denying Jesus, weak in their faith, scattered and then didn't even show up to see Jesus rise on the 3rd day like he said he would, instead they were all hiding, and then we see the book of acts the religion spreading like wildfire and the disciples being hard as nails in the face of opposition and growing massively from a very little amount of people and even under massive persecution.
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So there is free will except for when there isn't.
how convenient
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EPT
