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Hello. Ain't written here for a while. I've decided to start normally blogging instead of being a fool preaching here.
So over the last few months I've been looking into getting into the ministry of the Church of Scotland. Basically it's becoming a pastor/preacher and you receive your own congregation. Now there's some problems with this.
I'm 17 and I can only apply when I'm 18 to the denomination. :'( I turn 18 in December so I have like 10+ months free.
Not only this but the bible college that I can go to right now to actually take up this year that I have productively, costs £3100. So I can't go there unless I take a lot of money from my parents and I dont wanna do that unless i fail and I'll be really nervous that I would.
Not only this but I had 2 missionaries come over from OM boats offering to take me on board this christian boat thing where they go from port to port all over the world 350 missionaries on board the ship living there. they were going from the UK to the Caribbean........until they found out I WAS 18.........................
NOOOOOOOT only this but my preacher said I should perhaps become a street pastor, who are basically these people who go out into the nightclubs/bars area at weekends (really bad here in scotland) and make sure people get home safely, share the gospel etc... etc...
Entry requirement : 18 :@
So what can I do? I could get a job....if there wasn't a recession in this country with literally no jobs on offer for me for the last few months.
I'm already in a college course for I.T. but thats in...literally 1 day a week now that's 6 day's free.
This kind of a lifestyle used to be a dream to me in high school, 6 days a week off? but in practice....ahhh i'd rather nothing more than giving my time away for money or Christian ministry.
I never thought I would have cared about the recession because I sit in the house all day and don't have a job but im starting to hate it now.
SO BORED
any suggestions on how to spend my time that may not require me to be 18 :'(?
take care, God bless.
 
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...Go to uni and live a decadent lifestyle like most teenagers.
- Play more starcraft
- Learn how to play the glockenspiel.
- Live like a Victorian gentleman for a couple of days.
- Watch Y tu mama tambien. Twice.
- Read Ullysses.
- Attempt to read Finnegans Wake.
- Give up reading Finnegans Wake.
- Make yourself a sandwich.
- Throw away your copy of Finnegans Wake.
- Make yourself another sandwich while trying not to think about artificial insemination.
- Root through your rubbish to find and try and read Finnegans Wake again.
- Meet Elvis and remember that you shouldn't mix your drinks.
- Read to a man in a coma.
- Play Saxophone.
- Visit a Jazz bar.
- Wonder if Lou Reed could remember what instruments he played when he recorded Metal Machine Music.
- Spend an hour trying to watch 1.15 replays on 1.16 without them glitching.
- Stop going to church and instead go spend time with an old person you don't see much anymore.
- Learn Korean.
- Read Peter Kropotkin essays and become an anarchist.
- Give blood.
- See how many times you can blink in a minute.
- See how few times you can blink in a minute.
- Stop wasting electricity.
- Become one of those people who collects glass jars and recycles them.
- Cultivate an ant farm.
- Make Strawberry Sourbet.
- Spend a minute intensely hating Adam Sandler.
- Spend a minute contemplating rain.
- Periodically wish it was summer.
- Miss observer mode, the old one from ADVLoader.
- Hope Savior beats Upmagic.
The end.
Oh and listen to Neutral Milk Hotel
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i have like 50 atheist jokes right now, but will shut up.
the 18 years rule is totally stupid. do what Piy said, get laid and enjoy being 17.
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ahhhhhhh i couldn't imagine that playing starcraft and having 6 days off could be so boring.
:'(
emo time
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On February 13 2009 09:13 Piy wrote:
Oh and listen to Neutral Milk Hotel
Ding ding ding! We have a winner!
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what do you normally do in the summer? Do that, just minus the swimming and other outdoor activities. Even thats only for a month or so, considering the weather is getting better. And considering im in Canada, your weather is probably coming a long way better than mine is by this point. Plenty you can do.
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United States42419 Posts
Guitar + Christian rock band.
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w00t. It makes me happy to know I'm not the only UK TL nerd to be on at 1 in the morning.
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On February 13 2009 10:00 Kwark wrote:
Guitar + Christian rock band.
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do absolutely nothing
you should get used to wasting your life if you intend on becoming a priest
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Argue with people at indie bars u can do that 8 days a week ez
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get exercise. it's so much fun when you don't have a care in the world and the only thing you do is exercise every day to build up your body. Go hiking, run, bike, pushups, etch.
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As opposed to playing computer games all day...ooh burn.
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perhaps
but i dont spend my life encouraging others to waste theirs as well
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Be more active in church. Youth groups, Bible studies, devotionals, knock yourself out. I only wish I had your time =\.
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On February 13 2009 10:43 Piy wrote:
As opposed to playing computer games all day...ooh burn.
Whats the difference between being, for example, a professional athlete and a professional gamer?
It isn't like playing sports is really much different from playing video games in concept. You can play for fun or for a living.
I would say that playing football professional is a lot more wasteful for your life anyway, I would much rather be well off and smart as opposed to rich and stupid. Getting knocked in the head all day isn't very productive.
Edit: and this thread is really teetering on the edge of a flame war, it's pretty interesting just for that reason. I will stay tuned for any further developments
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If God existed, he would be proud.
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Kentor
United States5784 Posts
read christopher hitchens
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On February 13 2009 10:01 Piy wrote:
w00t. It makes me happy to know I'm not the only UK TL nerd to be on at 1 in the morning.
lol it's 2:43 now and I'm still on here,
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On February 13 2009 10:46 IdrA wrote:
perhaps
but i dont spend my life encouraging others to waste theirs as well Nor does he. So get the fuck out of the thread, asshole. 
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On February 13 2009 14:45 IdrA wrote:
?
hes becoming a priest
Touché
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I find it hard that you cant find a part-time job at your local shops or chain fast food stores. If you are that bored why not get a job over there?
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Kentor
United States5784 Posts
On February 13 2009 14:45 IdrA wrote:
?
hes becoming a priest
lol
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party like a mofo, thats what I'd do.
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On February 13 2009 14:45 IdrA wrote:
?
hes becoming a priest
Do you even know what a priest does? Even if you are against religion, in what way, shape, or form, do they encourage people to waste their lives? Be moral, be kind to your family, donate to charities. Is this a waste of your life? gtfo
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"perhaps
but i dont spend my life encouraging others to waste theirs as well" - Idra
Yeah your right idra because it's a waste of time trying to instruct others how 1) not to go to an eternal hell, 2) copy the example of the son of God, Jesus Christ who even by secular standards is probably the greatest example anyone could follow with his teachings like love thy neighbour.
Oh and I will be visiting the old people in the congregation keeping them company during the week in their care homes, conducting funerals to bring comfort to the family of the dead, councelling anyone who needs help in the church with any aspect of life they bring to me and bringing the hope of Jesus Christ to drug addicts, criminals, violent offenders, homeless people if i can, and basically anyone and doing it all not with an attitude of pride but an attitude of serving the living God in the knowledge that I'm a worm as it says in the book of Isaiah and only like this because of unmerited grace and mercy and will be serving for his glory and honour and exaltation.
Didn't think that one through did ya Idra. Maybe that's why you'll never be a Korean  .
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On February 14 2009 04:47 TechniQ.UK wrote:
2) copy the example of the son of God, Jesus Christ who even by secular standards is probably the greatest example anyone could follow with his teachings like love thy neighbour.
He's got nothing on this guy.
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On February 14 2009 04:47 TechniQ.UK wrote:"perhaps but i dont spend my life encouraging others to waste theirs as well" - Idra Yeah your right idra because it's a waste of time trying to instruct others how 1) not to go to an eternal hell, 2) copy the example of the son of God, Jesus Christ who even by secular standards is probably the greatest example anyone could follow with his teachings like love thy neighbour. Oh and I will be visiting the old people in the congregation keeping them company during the week in their care homes, conducting funerals to bring comfort to the family of the dead, councelling anyone who needs help in the church with any aspect of life they bring to me and bringing the hope of Jesus Christ to drug addicts, criminals, violent offenders, homeless people if i can, and basically anyone and doing it all not with an attitude of pride but an attitude of serving the living God in the knowledge that I'm a worm as it says in the book of Isaiah and only like this because of unmerited grace and mercy and will be serving for his glory and honour and exaltation. Didn't think that one through did ya Idra. Maybe that's why you'll never be a Korean .
1)psychologically torture little kids into doing whatever the church says is moral so they can avoid burning forever in a fictional place
look what religion did to you
you're PROUD of considering yourself a worm. do you not see whats wrong with that? grow some balls and think for yourself.
plenty of people who dont spend the work day preaching a fairy tale can help the homeless in far more substantial ways than 'bringing them the hope of Jesus Christ'
bring them some food instead. something that'll actually make a difference.
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psychologically torture kids.......nope i must have missed that sermon.
actually no getting to heaven is an act of trusting Jesus not
You must follow these rules or HELLLLLLLLLLLL!
I do think for myself, i wasnt raised christian and became a christian when i was 15.
what do you spend the working day doing again? what contribution does that make to society?
so please learn a bit about Christianity before you jump to conclusions.
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really?
telling a little kid that his non-christian friend who died is gonna go suffer for all eternity through no fault of his own.. that wont damage a kid's psyche? telling a teenager that he'll suffer for all eternity if he doesnt convince himself he isnt gay.. that wont fuck him up?
you might think for yourself, but you're doing it poorly.
and it doesnt even make sense. why have commandments and whatnot if all that matters is accepting jesus. that takes out the one positive of the whole thing, convincing people to behave properly. if an axe murderer can accept jesus on death row and be saved while an otherwise innocent infidel goes to hell for being born to a non-christian family.. seriously do you not see anything wrong with that picture?
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On February 14 2009 04:47 TechniQ.UK wrote:"perhaps but i dont spend my life encouraging others to waste theirs as well" - Idra Yeah your right idra because it's a waste of time trying to instruct others how 1) not to go to an eternal hell, 2) copy the example of the son of God, Jesus Christ who even by secular standards is probably the greatest example anyone could follow with his teachings like love thy neighbour. Oh and I will be visiting the old people in the congregation keeping them company during the week in their care homes, conducting funerals to bring comfort to the family of the dead, councelling anyone who needs help in the church with any aspect of life they bring to me and bringing the hope of Jesus Christ to drug addicts, criminals, violent offenders, homeless people if i can, and basically anyone and doing it all not with an attitude of pride but an attitude of serving the living God in the knowledge that I'm a worm as it says in the book of Isaiah and only like this because of unmerited grace and mercy and will be serving for his glory and honour and exaltation. Didn't think that one through did ya Idra. Maybe that's why you'll never be a Korean .
Christianity is a minority religion in Korea. Why is it always made to seem like it's 99% Christian over there?
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"telling a little kid that his non-christian friend who died is gonna go suffer for all eternity through no fault of his own.. that wont damage a kid's psyche? telling a teenager that he'll suffer for all eternity if he doesnt convince himself he isnt gay.. that wont fuck him up?" - Idra
Well pretty sure that unless the minister was filled with hate and spite he would never say that to a gay teenager.
and also a minister would never tell a little kid his dead friend is going to suffer in eternal hell.
Not to mention that children go to heaven automatically if they die under an age of accountability.
Why have commandments and everything? 1) to convict the world that it has sinned against God and needs a saviour. That was one of the purposes of the 10 commandments to make the jews/ the world aware they had gone astray and Jesus was the only way to be saved.
Also the guy on death row you we're speaking about, see there is one problem with that. Salvation is not by free will but by a sovereign act of God. We don't choose God, God chooses us. The only reason someone gets saved is a supernatural act of God almighty making salvation effective for that person. It's called Calvinism, look it up. Saying a prayer or something like that won't take you to heaven and you can't love God without God first acting in love toward you by his Holy Spirit in regeneration in which your heart is changed so the God you once hated you now love. Up until that happens sinful man hates the Holy God of all glory because God is everything he's not(good, forgiving, sinless, pure, self-controlled, just) and God requires of him the sin he loves and the sin that his life revolves around.
There are a lot of people in churches who think they are saved because they said a prayer in an evangelistic meeting and I'm not disagreeing that some of them may have been saved and then prayed that prayer/while they were doing it but the prayer itself is nothing, salvation is of the Lord.
As you said an "otherwise innocent infidel" will go to hell. Well how innocent is the infidel? I mean did he keep the 10 commandments perfectly? No because no one can since adam and eve fell, that's why Jesus is required to pay the price of our sins because we have all done it and cannot pay God back for it and God in his perfect justice needs to punish the guilty. You wouldn't like a judge who didn't punish a murderer or a rapist and just let him go would you? Now think how much more important it is that God, ruler of all, the most high, has perfect justice. If he didn't we would be utterly screwed as would this world be.
Your perfectly happy to get angry when you see injustice in the newspaper or that a guy raped and killed a little girl in the newspaper. Does God not have the same right to get angry at the evils of man? or is it only you and I who are allowed to get angry at man's evil? Not to mention if there is no God, have fun finding justice in your world because 1) the few years in prison will be over for that guy and 2) that little girl who got raped and killed will not end up in eternal bliss but would have suffered and been robbed of all the life she would have ever experienced.
Thank God, God is real and he will punish the wicked, but his idea of wicked is all transgressors not just the rapists and murderers. but he gave his son to pay for the sins that I and you committed in his love, even though he owed us nothing and he was not obligated to do anything to save us.
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On February 14 2009 23:22 TechniQ.UK wrote:
Not to mention that children go to heaven automatically if they die under an age of accountability.
verse?
sola scriptura son
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Oh, and since you are apparently a Calvinist and concerned with justice, can you explain how predestination is just?
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On February 14 2009 23:22 TechniQ.UK wrote:
"telling a little kid that his non-christian friend who died is gonna go suffer for all eternity through no fault of his own.. that wont damage a kid's psyche? telling a teenager that he'll suffer for all eternity if he doesnt convince himself he isnt gay.. that wont fuck him up?" - Idra
Well pretty sure that unless the minister was filled with hate and spite he would never say that to a gay teenager.
and also a minister would never tell a little kid his dead friend is going to suffer in eternal hell.
Not to mention that children go to heaven automatically if they die under an age of accountability.
seeing as your religion believes that gays will go to hell:
+ Show Spoiler +Lev 18:22-23 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." Lev 20:13 "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death." 1 Cor 6  "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals" 1 Tim 1 -10 "realizing the fact that (civil) law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers" Rom 1:26-27 "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."
it would be pretty irresponsible of the priest to NOT tell the gay teenager that.
i find it incredibly ironic that you talk about 'accountability' given the rest of your post. doesnt the child still have 'original sin'? if that is ignored for children, how come it is applicable to the rest of us? we had no part in the fall, if children arent punished for things they had no control over why are we?
Why have commandments and everything? 1) to convict the world that it has sinned against God and needs a saviour. That was one of the purposes of the 10 commandments to make the jews/ the world aware they had gone astray and Jesus was the only way to be saved.
so he made the rules after they made mistakes in order to convict them? that doesnt exactly seem fair, how can you punish them for doing something when there were no rules against it, if the commandments were the foundation for the punishment? not to mention you just said that heaven/hell (punishment) is not a matter of right or wrong, but of accepting jesus. which is obviously not the case if the rules were instated in order to punish someone, if right/wrong had no part in judgement he would not have needed to make the rules to judge the jews.
Also the guy on death row you we're speaking about, see there is one problem with that. Salvation is not by free will but by a sovereign act of God. We don't choose God, God chooses us. The only reason someone gets saved is a supernatural act of God almighty making salvation effective for that person. It's called Calvinism, look it up. Saying a prayer or something like that won't take you to heaven and you can't love God without God first acting in love toward you by his Holy Spirit in regeneration in which your heart is changed so the God you once hated you now love. Up until that happens sinful man hates the Holy God of all glory because God is everything he's not(good, forgiving, sinless, pure, self-controlled, just) and God requires of him the sin he loves and the sin that his life revolves around.
so your eternal existence is dependent wholly upon gods whim? a good person can suffer and a bad person can go to heaven depending on whether or not god chooses to 'choose' them? once again, how is that fair? also, if god can 'change your heart' why even have heaven and hell? why not just make everyone good and let them enjoy life and heaven? dont give an answer based on free will because every part of your previous statements has basically thrown free will out the window.
and, btw, thats not what i learned in sunday school. everything was about forgiveness and repenting and a loving god who would accept you into his arms and blah blah blah.
There are a lot of people in churches who think they are saved because they said a prayer in an evangelistic meeting and I'm not disagreeing that some of them may have been saved and then prayed that prayer/while they were doing it but the prayer itself is nothing, salvation is of the Lord.
so peoples fate is wholly independent of their actions and thoughts and whatnot. nifty. sounds like a logical system.
As you said an "otherwise innocent infidel" will go to hell. Well how innocent is the infidel? I mean did he keep the 10 commandments perfectly? No because no one can since adam and eve fell, that's why Jesus is required to pay the price of our sins because we have all done it and cannot pay God back for it and God in his perfect justice needs to punish the guilty. You wouldn't like a judge who didn't punish a murderer or a rapist and just let him go would you? Now think how much more important it is that God, ruler of all, the most high, has perfect justice. If he didn't we would be utterly screwed as would this world be.
if god in his perfect justice needs to punish the guilty, shouldnt he be punishing everyone (since no one is innocent, as you say)? why should some muslim guy get the short end of the stick cuz he was born in the wrong region? and dont say he should have converted, there is no reason for him to convert, the only reason to believe in the christian god is if you are raised/told/converted/whatever into the belief. that opportunity literally does not exist in the muslim world. if you deny that, what of people who lived before christianity, how were they expected accept a god they had never heard of?
you said said that no one is entirely innocent. but jesus died to pay for our sins. so how come people still have to be punished? jesus' death didnt cover enough? (how does some guy dying 2000 years ago absolve anyone of anything anyway?)
Your perfectly happy to get angry when you see injustice in the newspaper or that a guy raped and killed a little girl in the newspaper. Does God not have the same right to get angry at the evils of man? or is it only you and I who are allowed to get angry at man's evil? Not to mention if there is no God, have fun finding justice in your world because 1) the few years in prison will be over for that guy and 2) that little girl who got raped and killed will not end up in eternal bliss but would have suffered and been robbed of all the life she would have ever experienced.
god has the power to 'change a persons heart' according to you, why didnt he make the rapist a good person in the first place and spare the little girl?
jesus died for our sins, including the rapist/murders'. why does he have to be punished any more?
and there is justice in our world. show me a rapist/murderer who gets out on a couple of years jail time.
Thank God, God is real and he will punish the wicked, but his idea of wicked is all transgressors not just the rapists and murderers. but he gave his son to pay for the sins that I and you committed in his love, even though he owed us nothing and he was not obligated to do anything to save us.
do you actually buy this drivel
im starting to think you're a troll
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As for you idra, salvation is dependent on God and I'll make no apologies for that. Does it shock you that human beings are not in charge and are not of a higher authority than God?
However thankfully God is not like man, he doesn't change his mind every second, he cannot lie and he never changes. So salvation is dependant on the will of a merciful, graceful, loving, tender-hearted who abounds in love and forgiveness and mercy for sinners. A never changing Father who so loved the world that he gave his own son to die for hell-deserving unrepentant and helpless sinners.
The reason Jesus can pay for sins is because he is God's son and is God the son of the trinity. Therefore he is of infinitely more worth than any amount of humans. A normal man could never of died for the sins of the world but God the son becoming a man, taking our sins upon that cross then suffering even the punishments of hell for the human race on that cross.
As for the homosexual thing, yes the preacher should cover that, but the way you put it was asif the teenager was getting verbally abused personally by this preacher. Preaching is always done to convict people of sin not out of some malice or anger but out of love that the person would turn from sin and trust Jesus and be saved from everlasting punishment for their wickedness.
Jesus was enough to pay the price of sin for all sin however it's only made effectual when someone repents and believes. If it we're any other way then sinners would never accept Jesus and go on living in sin wilfully ignoring Jesus and saying "Look he's paid for it, lets sin more there isn't any punishment at the end!" which would then mean probably people raping and killing people and being as wicked as they liked because heaven was at the end for them anyway.
In terms of predestination being Just:
Well yes I can explain it.
The people arent going to hell not because God has denied them something, but because the love their sin and cherish it and are guilty. Predestination doesn't change the fact that they are guilty of not walking in the light of the law written on their heart and the testimony of nature that God is real.
We aren't talking about sinless little heathens all waiting to go to heaven but God is refusing them access, no we're talking about monsters of immorality who hate God, don't look for him, and utterly refuse to walk in the light of their conscious and who when offered the gospel hate it, hate the idea of a Just and Holy God who has laws and rules and hate the gospel and reject it.
God owes no one anything, in fact we ALL deserve hell. You should find it a miracle that he has saved millions or even billions of human beings from eternal hell even though they hated him and despised his gospel and we're born and matured into monsters of immorality.
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They're guilty of doing what they were predestined to do?
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On February 15 2009 01:03 TechniQ.UK wrote:
Well yes I can.
The people arent going to hell not because God has denied them something, but because the love their sin and cherish it and are guilty.
but you just said they were only saved by god choosing them, not by repenting or them accepting god. if it doesnt matter if they repent, why does it matter if they love the sin? those are opposite ends of the same thing. if one doesnt matter the other shouldnt.
Predestination doesn't change the fact that they are guilty of not walking in the light of the law written on their heart and the testimony of nature that God is real.
what part of nature testifies that god is real?
you know why every pro athlete has knee surgery at some point in their life? its cuz our knee isnt designed for walking upright. its adapted from a structure designed for walking on all fours. theres a billion other such examples in nature. all nature testifies is that your god is a fuckin horrible engineer.
predestination means they have no control over what happens to them, how can you hold someone guilty for something they had no control over?
We aren't talking about sinless little heathens all waiting to go to heaven but God is refusing them access, no we're talking about monsters of immorality who hate God, don't look for him, and utterly refuse to walk in the light of their conscious and who when offered the gospel hate it, hate the idea of a Just and Holy God who has laws and rules and hate the gospel and reject it.
which part of my post is this addressing? i was talking about sinless heathens, because by your standards they should be ending up in hell just for believing in the wrong god, which is a direct result of being born in the wrong section of the world, which they have no control over.
they dont hate the idea of all that bullshit you just said, they love allah more than you love god. i dont see you offering to blow yourself up to do god's bidding. they just got the wrong god because they were born into the wrong religion.
God owes no one anything, in fact we ALL deserve hell. You should find it a miracle that he has saved millions or even billions of human beings from eternal hell even though they hated him and despised his gospel and we're born and matured into monsters of immorality.
see
this is why religion should be abolished
you probably werent insane when you were born
now look at you
why do we all deserve hell? mother theresa deserved hell because 2 people ate an apple in a garden a couple of thousand years ago? what?
btw you skipped huge chunks of my post. please address them.
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Mindcrime - They're guilty of doing what they were predestined to do?
No predestination is only ever mentioned in the context of believers, unbelievers are not predestined to do anything, they are basically left to their life of sin. They aren't predestined to be sinners but they are born that way and hate God because they are evil and he is good.
Sinners are commanded to repent and believe but they refuse to. If anyone on earth repents and believes the gospel they will be saved. That is a promise in the bible.
Now I'm a pretty moderate Calvinist. 1) I believe many many people are called and can accept Jesus, in fact every single person who reads a gospel tract or hears the gospel preached I believe if they repent and believe the gospel after reading and hearing can and will be saved because these are the means by which the Holy Spirit almost always works, the foolishness of preachers and the blessed word of God. However if they utterly refuse the Holy Spirit to convict them of their sins when they're listening/reading and reject the gospel and the word of God then they won't be saved at that time.
God works through the "foolishness of preaching" but to be a preacher you must be called, and to be called it must be of God and then all of those people listening to the preacher I believe at that point, if they accept the word of God, and keep it with all patience and act on it then they can and will be saved(luke 8:13-15 speaks about the word on good soil). However if they hear the gospel and utterly reject it or let they're love of sin overwrite what they just heard in the preachers message of repentance and believing then they remain on their path to hell.
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On February 15 2009 01:03 TechniQ.UK wrote:
As for you idra, salvation is dependent on God and I'll make no apologies for that. Does it shock you that human beings are not in charge and are not of a higher authority than God?
dont care where the power lies. however you yourself have said that god is just. what is just about choosing at random who he saves? if it is not at random, how are the decisions made? you have said that it is irrelevant if the criminal is repentant. its only decided by gods will. well, what decides gods will?
However thankfully God is not like man, he doesn't change his mind every second, he cannot lie and he never changes. So salvation is dependant on the will of a merciful, graceful, loving, tender-hearted who abounds in love and forgiveness and mercy for sinners. A never changing Father who so loved the world that he gave his own son to die for hell-deserving unrepentant and helpless sinners.
why does such a merciful loving god who controls all of us at his mere whim allow the little girl to be raped and murdered in the first place? you said god can choose to change a persons heart. youve talked about predestination. so you've basically said god can do w/etf he wants with us and free will doesnt exist. so then, how does a good and loving god who controls us all allow people to suffer? he either does not have absolute power over us or he is not good. which is it?
The reason Jesus can pay for sins is because he is God's son and is God the son of the trinity. Therefore he is of infinitely more worth than any amount of humans. A normal man could never of died for the sins of the world but God the son becoming a man, taking our sins upon that cross then suffering even the punishments of hell for the human race on that cross.
you do realize you're saying absolutely nothing right?
how did jesus' suffering change any of our guilt for our sins? if i stab you in the face, i stabbed you in the face. i deserve to be punished for doing something bad. jesus dying doesnt change that.
also you didnt address the contradiction in your points. jesus suffered for us and in doing so absolved our sins. but we're all still guilty of sin and can be punished for it if god doesnt accept us. so either we arent absolved because of jesus.. or we're innocent and being punished anyway. either way it doesnt make sense.
As for the homosexual thing, yes the preacher should cover that, but the way you put it was asif the teenager was getting verbally abused personally by this preacher. Preaching is always done to convict people of sin not out of some malice or anger but out of love that the person would turn from sin and trust Jesus and be saved from everlasting punishment for their wickedness.
did i say it would come of malice or anger? does that change anything?
you're still torturing the boy, whether you mean well or not.
Jesus was enough to pay the price of sin for all sin however it's only made effectual when someone repents and believes. If it we're any other way then sinners would never accept Jesus and go on living in sin wilfully ignoring Jesus and saying "Look he's paid for it, lets sin more there isn't any punishment at the end!" which would then mean probably people raping and killing people and being as wicked as they liked because heaven was at the end for them anyway.
first off you're a pretty sad person if you think everyone would go around raping and killing just because they didnt think theyd go to hell in the end. how did humanity survive before god came to them if that is our base state? you think society survived years of everyone running around killing and stealing and whatnot until god decided to set us straight?
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On February 15 2009 01:25 TechniQ.UK wrote:
Mindcrime - They're guilty of doing what they were predestined to do?
No predestination is only ever mentioned in the context of believers, unbelievers are not predestined to do anything, they are basically left to their life of sin. They aren't predestined to be sinners but they are born that way and hate God because they are evil and he is good.
why are they born evil?
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United States22883 Posts
TechniQ.UK definitely has hardcore views, but for a lot of people, especially Protestants, the ministry extends far beyond the pulpit and for that they live extremely meaningful lives and serve the community better than 99% of citizens, helping the poor, etc.
I don't believe being a Christian is supposed to be about telling people God is judging them or that they're going to Hell. As a minister, who I respect more than nearly everyone else on Earth, once told me, "there's nothing wrong with being an atheist."
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dont care where the power lies. however you yourself have said that god is just. what is just about choosing at random who he saves? if it is not at random, how are the decisions made? you have said that it is irrelevant if the criminal is repentant. its only decided by gods will. well, what decides gods will? - Idra
- He doesn't make them at random, how he makes the decision is unknown to everyone and the bible. As for it being irrelevant if the criminal repents or not. Well no what I'm saying is the criminal will never truely repent unless God has something to do with it. E.g. sending a preacher filled with the Holy Spirit or in his divine providence having a bible open somewhere or having a gospel tract in sight.
Free will does exist but man is born with a sinful nature ever since Adam and eve made the free will decision to disobey God, but where his will is against ours I think that he according to his most gracious council will change our wills ever so subtly. So no God is not in control of everyone at every moment forcing them to do his will. Man has free will which he uses to sin against God constantly, (just look at the 10 commandments, if your outside of Christ your in disobedience to the first commandment every second of your life) until God saves a person from their own nature after the Holy Spirit works through the foolishness of preaching and the sinner repents and believes. That's why christianity is not rule following, rule following says that you follow these rules and you'll go to heaven by your own will and power, the bible says give up on your own righteousness which is actually filthy rags in the sight of God and trust in the righteousness of another, God the son himself, Jesus Christ and trust in him alone.
As for predestination it only concerns the believers, I already told you he lets the sinners get on with it and no where in his word did he say the little girl was under his divine protection? At the end of the day if you say that God was under obligation to stop the rape of the little girl, is he also obligated to save people from dying? Theft? is he obligated to stop murder? He was able and willing to do all these things until sin happened with adam and eve. Ever since then, he has no obligation to do anything for people who are born sinners because when adam and eve fell man became corrupted by sin. It may seem harsh but at the end of the day it would be a lot lot worse if God wasn't sovereignly restraining the majority of evil in this world.
As for the atonement of Jesus. Jesus wasn't effective because the romans made him suffer on a cross. Jesus Christ took the guilt of our sin upon himself on the cross, took the sins of me upon him. At that moment it said that the land went dark for 3 hours, later Jesus cried out my God my God why have you forsaken me? Do you know why? Jesus who took my sin upon that cross, suffered the pure wrath of God upon that cross for every sin I've ever committed that would of fallen on me if I had died and went to hell.
See if God is just there needs to be a punishment to sin, so the only way I'm going to get forgiveness of sins is if someone else takes that punishment from God the Father. That's where Jesus comes in, the only pure man, the only perfectly Holy Lamb of God who could make the perfect atonement for sins because he himself was absolutely pure.
Then Jesus cried out "It is finished". Effectively stating the guiltiness and death pentalty of sin has been fully paid for every sinner who repents and believes and then he died, rose on the 3rd day by the power of God and later ascended up to heaven. This proved he is and was the son of God, that his words we're absolultly trustworthy and that the price had been paid. He then later ascended up to heaven to sit by the right hand of the Father.
Romans 8:33
Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised— who is at the right hand of God,who indeed is interceding for us.
This verse shows 1) no one can lay guilt of sin at the feet of the elect (those in Christ) because the price of their sin and the punishment has all been paid in full by Christ.
2) They cannot be condemned and God will not condemn them because it is christ who died on that cross in our place as a propitiation.
3) Jesus is raised up showing that Jesus is no longer suffering for our sins but is restored back to his former glory that he had before the foundation of the world why? because he is the eternal God. God the son, 2nd part of the trinity. The Father being the first and the Holy Spirit being the 3rd. Co-equal, co-eternal working in absolute harmony.
Amen
Oh and these views aren't really hardcore, this is the views of every presbyterian, baptist, charismatic, evangelical church that hasn't become liberal and it's the historical interpretation of the scriptures we have from the early church and ever since reformation times and upwards.
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On February 15 2009 06:54 TechniQ.UK wrote:
dont care where the power lies. however you yourself have said that god is just. what is just about choosing at random who he saves? if it is not at random, how are the decisions made? you have said that it is irrelevant if the criminal is repentant. its only decided by gods will. well, what decides gods will? - Idra
- He doesn't make them at random, how he makes the decision is unknown to everyone and the bible. As for it being irrelevant if the criminal repents or not. Well no what I'm saying is the criminal will never truely repent unless God has something to do with it. E.g. sending a preacher filled with the Holy Spirit or in his divine providence having a bible open somewhere or having a gospel tract in sight. so then we're back to predestination for the sinners.
if the criminal cant repent without god choosing them, they dont have control over their own fate.
you explicitly said last post that sinners and unbelievers are left to their own devices and only believers are predestined. which is it?
Free will does exist but man is born with a sinful nature ever since Adam and eve made the free will decision to disobey God, but where his will is against ours I think that he according to his most gracious council will change our wills ever so subtly. So no God is not in control of everyone at every moment forcing them to do his will. Man has free will which he uses to sin against God constantly, (just look at the 10 commandments, if your outside of Christ your in disobedience to the first commandment every second of your life) until God saves a person from their own nature after the Holy Spirit works through the foolishness of preaching and the sinner repents and believes. That's why christianity is not rule following, rule following says that you follow these rules and you'll go to heaven by your own will and power, the bible says give up on your own righteousness which is actually filthy rags in the sight of God and trust in the righteousness of another, God the son himself, Jesus Christ and trust in him alone.
how did adam and eve disobeying (just eve actually, iirc) god make me sinful? i had no control over what they did. how can i be held responsible? (could you actually answer this this time? ive asked it like 3 or 4 times)
if god can change our will we do not have free will. thats pretty obvious, it doesnt matter how much he chooses to exert his influence, as long as he does choose to exert it some of the time.
also you dropped the 'only exerts it on believers' argument in your last paragraph when you said sinners cant repent without 'god having something to do with it' so obviously he does affect the will of sinners as well.
as for the rest of that, isnt that fucking retarded? why is it more important to believe in jesus and god than to be good people?
As for predestination it only concerns the believers, I already told you he lets the sinners get on with it and no where in his word did he say the little girl was under his divine protection? At the end of the day if you say that God was under obligation to stop the rape of the little girl, is he also obligated to save people from dying? Theft? is he obligated to stop murder? He was able and willing to do all these things until sin happened with adam and eve. Ever since then, he has no obligation to do anything for people who are born sinners because when adam and eve fell man became corrupted by sin. It may seem harsh but at the end of the day it would be a lot lot worse if God wasn't sovereignly restraining the majority of evil in this world.
why would the little girl have to be under his divine protection? lets assume shes 'under the age of culpability' or whatever you said, so by christian standards shes innocent, since she'll go to heaven. why should an innocent little girl suffer and die when god (a good, kind, loving god) has the power and the willingness (as shown by the fact that you admit he does alter people's wills, even sinners) to prevent it? remember, god is omnicient and omnipresent and everything else, its not like he just didnt see her getting raped.
he is obligated by the fact that, as you have said, hes a good kind loving god. such a god would not want his creations to suffer. and yet he allows them to suffer quite a bit. doesnt really make sense?
how does what adam and eve did affect me? is god a spiteful little child or something? some woman ate an apple so now, even though he loves us all greatly, he doesnt give a fuck what happens to us, the people he created?
As for the atonement of Jesus. Jesus wasn't effective because the romans made him suffer on a cross. Jesus Christ took the guilt of our sin upon himself on the cross, took the sins of me upon him. At that moment it said that the land went dark for 3 hours, later Jesus cried out my God my God why have you forsaken me? Do you know why? Jesus who took my sin upon that cross, suffered the pure wrath of God upon that cross for every sin I've ever committed that would of fallen on me if I had died and went to hell.
what does that even mean? 'took the sins'
jesus has nothing to do with you. if you commit a sin, you commit a sin. that makes you, in some ways, a bad person, you have still caused harm to another person. you dont deserve to be punished for that?
See if God is just there needs to be a punishment to sin, so the only way I'm going to get forgiveness of sins is if someone else takes that punishment from God the Father. That's where Jesus comes in, the only pure man, the only perfectly Holy Lamb of God who could make the perfect atonement for sins because he himself was absolutely pure.
why does someone else taking punishment atone for your sins?
YOU are the one who sinned, you are the one who should be punished. someone else being punished MAKES NO SENSE
Romans 8:33
Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised— who is at the right hand of God,who indeed is interceding for us.
This verse shows 1) no one can lay guilt of sin at the feet of the elect (those in Christ) because the price of their sin and the punishment has all been paid in full by Christ.
no. it hasnt. if they did something wrong then they are bad people unless they have done something to atone for it. christ dying does nothing to change that.
2) They cannot be condemned and God will not condemn them because it is christ who died on that cross in our place as a propitiation.
they should be condemned. they did something bad. the only way society works is for bad people to be punished.
next time you post please respond properly, the way ive been doing. all you're doing is posting half sermons that arent actually aimed at anything and are full of utter non sense. break my post up into sections and quote and specifically respond to each one. you're ignoring half my points and arent actually addressing anything you do talk about.
and once again
why is man born evil? dont say because of adam and eve, that is not a why. what has each individual person done to deserve to be born a sinner?
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United States22883 Posts
You accept the subjective interpretations of rich, white men from 400 years ago at face value. That is pretty hardcore.
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white men from 400 years ago at face value - isn't this what the majority of secular world does with teachers, television and the media? plus I don't accept them at face value, I wrestle with the calvinist / arminianism arguement several times a month.
What has man done to be born a sinner? well adam and eve are the first parents, therefore their offspring are absolutely affected by the sin. God could not simply speak the sin out of existance like he spoke the world into existance, the problem was so great it took the death of his own son. Jesus is the only solution to the sin problem, any other way is boastfulness and vanity and will not help at all.
As for your interpretation of the scriptures Idra, if you believe that the guilty deserve their punishment and God was wrong in sending his own son to atone for sins then heres what the bible says about you and im sure you know the punishment.
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
"Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
that condemns every human being under sin. and if you think being a good person is what counts then.....
6(C) We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of WORKS, lest any man should boast.
You cant pay the debt of your sin off, you have utterly nothing in your hands to bring to a God who has everything, salvation can only come from his own goodness and work on the cross.
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i see you chose to ignore my request and continue posting in a way that allows you to avoid addressing everything im saying. thank you for that.
On February 15 2009 23:09 TechniQ.UK wrote:
What has man done to be born a sinner? well adam and eve are the first parents, therefore their offspring are absolutely affected by the sin. God could not simply speak the sin out of existance like he spoke the world into existance, the problem was so great it took the death of his own son. Jesus is the only solution to the sin problem, any other way is boastfulness and vanity and will not help at all.
isnt god omnipotent? how can there be something he cant do?
that aside, how can a parent's guilt be passed along to its child? the child had no control over what the parent did, how can it be held responsible?
and, once afuckinggain, how does jesus dying do anything to atone for anyones sins? he died. whoopy. hes the 'son of god'. whoopy. axe murderer's victims all feel better because of that? dont think so.
As for your interpretation of the scriptures Idra, if you believe that the guilty deserve their punishment and God was wrong in sending his own son to atone for sins then heres what the bible says about you and im sure you know the punishment.
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
"Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
that condemns every human being under sin. and if you think being a good person is what counts then.....
6(C) We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of WORKS, lest any man should boast.
You cant pay the debt of your sin off, you have utterly nothing in your hands to bring to a Godwho has everything, salvation can only come from his own goodness and work on the cross.
dont quote scripture at me, its meaningless to anyone with a brain.
people do deserve punishment for the sins they HAVE COMMITED. not the original sin bullshit. and yes, real sins can be atoned for or payed for. you do something bad, you either do something good like community service or you go to jail. thats how the real world works.
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United States22883 Posts
You've excused your mindlessness by saying the masses are mindless as well? Think about what you just said.
The Bible was written over a long span of time by many different men, each with different opinions, translated many times by different men and yet you take it as a literal guideline. You're just as reliant on the effort of the most recent translator as you are of God, if not moreso.
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No I actually said I don't take these theologians at face value Jibba if you'd care to read my post again.
Anyway idra k heres the deal and I'm not saying this out of anger or anything like that I'm simply responding theres no need to get all heated up to be honest. :
1) Man is born in a depraved nature that cannot understand the things of God and loves sin. They're born like that as a consequence of the sin of Adam and eve and the fall of humanity from God.
Now what a sin nature means is this, holiness is absolutely abstract to you, even if your religious, inwardly your absolutely blind to God, most of the time making Gods in your own image foreign to scripture and denying the existence of God to justify your sin and to live life your own way.
So a sin nature we are born with as a consequence of Adam and eve, ok thats a fact. Now what does a sin nature produce? Sin. What does sin produce? Death.
So your not being punished because you have original sin from Adam and eve for something you didn't do, but for what you do with your free will as a result of that because you refuse to walk in the light of the law of God written in your heart, trade in the truth of God for philosophy or false gods. If anyone turns to Jesus, and turns away from sin they will be saved it's a guarentee but the bible says you won't because your deeds are evil. Basically your too embarrassed and too prideful to say ok I have sinned and I'm guilty to God and to give up the filth.
2) isnt god omnipotent? how can there be something he cant do? - Idra
in a sense God can do all things, but he
a) does not violate his perfect nature and character. For example I could go and kill a child, as in im physically able to, but of course my morals and character means its impossible for me.
b) Does not violate the scripture which he inspired. 66 books of the bible.
3) how does Jesus dying do anything to atone for anyones sins? - Idra
Well you have the wrong idea, Jesus didnt die to bring some reconciliation to axe murderers victims. It was God the son dying in my place satisfying the justice, not of man but of God the Father.
Well I'll give you a brief history of the OT. In Jewish law and such that came from moses from God, there was several different rituals. One was to take a pure clean lamb, and for everyone to lay their hands upon it thus having their sins imparted on to that lamb, that lamb was then killed and it's blood spilled as an offering to God, thus atoning for the sins of those people who imparted their guilt on to that animal sacrifice.
We learn in the new testament that this was all a picture of what was to be revealed, the true lamb of God. Jesus Christ who takes away the sin of the world.
So my sins, past, present and future went on to the pure lamb the son of God on that cross he bore them. OK so that's the imparting part, now comes the atoning part, Jesus then suffered wrath at the hand of his Father that was stored up for the day of judgment for me and my sins. All the Holy anger and wrath of God that I deserve fell upon Jesus that day, canceling my guilt and debt because Jesus paid it in full and God won't punish sin twice, his perfect justice was satisfied(now I want you to keep in mind, Jesus wasn't doing this grudgingly he willingly came, in essence the full trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit were working in harmony to save sinners then and still are today). Jesus then said it is finished meaning essentially the price is paid, rose again to show that he is the son of God and also to start the church and also to show that God was no longer punishing Jesus but the atonement had been made. If Jesus didn't rise again then one would have to assume the work of atonement is still on going for sin or Jesus isn't the son of God but he did.
This kind of explains it
4(G) Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
(H) smitten by God, and afflicted.
5(I) But he was wounded for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
(J) and with his stripes we are healed.
6(K) All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
(L) and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
Anyway just chill out idra it's only a conversation im not here to make you angry and to go crazy or get militant.
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United States22883 Posts
I did. You are reading and interpreting the work of a men who lived a millennium away from when the events in the New Testament took place. It gets even worse when looking at the Old Testament.
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i am not getting 'heated up'
you just dont realize how stupid you sound to anyone unwilling to accept completely irrational premises on the word of old men who lived hundreds of years ago.
1. so then god is an unfair bitter baby? because some woman ate an apple thousands of years ago we all have to be born evil? what makes sense about that?
and you still havent answered the 'why' of how a parents actions pre-birth affect the makeup of a child's character. if adam and eve doing evil causes their descendants to have an evil nature, why arent the children of humanitarians and whatnot (or people who have been saved by god and so are now innocent and good) born with a 'good nature'?
2."God could not simply speak the sin out of existance like he spoke the world into existance, the problem was so great it took the death of his own son." you said the problem was so great it took the death of his son. 'so great' implies it was beyond his power to do it on his own. doesnt sound like omnipotence to me. and what in his perfect character would prevent him from releaving the human race of a burden that they have no responsibility for? it seems to me that hes being an asshole to hold us accountable for something we had no power over. and he is indeed holding us accountable for it, despite your claims about jesus, because you claim we are all still born evil.
3. you know what the term 'scapegoat' means? and where it came from?
you're missing the whole point of punishment and atonement. when you do something bad you are responsible for it. saying 'ok i place my sins on this lamb/son of god lets make it suffer in my place' does not change anything. you have still done something bad (something worse now that you killed an innocent for no reason) that you have not paid for. how is it justice for an innocent person to die in place of a guilty one? dont spew some bullshit about the sins being placed on him. sins are not some abstract thing, we're talking about the responsibility for doing something bad.
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if it takes acknowledgement of christ for absolution, what happened to all those south african and east asian people who didnt know about christianity until past 1000 AD? did they all go to hell and never have a chance for absolution?
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ive asked him similar questions a few times, he just ignores it
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No I'm afraid your missing the whole concept of punishment and atonement. Sin in the greek effectively means lawlessness, lawlessness = there must be a law to start with, the law of God.
So sin = something in rebellion to Gods laws.
OK so you violate God's law the punishment comes from God which is hell at the end of the road, OK so everyone has violated God's law willingly, therefore the only way a sinner is going to pay for his sins is either him suffering in hell or someone suffering in his place, that was Jesus on the cross.
Don't know whats so hard for you to understand about that but oh well.
As for the woman eating that apple, go read the context etc... before you over simplify the story.
The woman believed a lie that she could become like God by eating the fruit and disobeyed a direct order even though it was a completely free will choice and they had eternal life in the garden of eden, bliss, direct fellowship with God and no evil.
As for this business with people being born into a sinful nature, God isn't doing it to each person individually or something as some kind of active punishment, no, the woman sinned, human nature was corrupted by human free will, sin entered humanity corrupting it and God again, kept true to his promise that he made when he gave the law not to eat the fruit and left the human race to it, however God said even in the garden of eden that basically a saviour was coming, he could of tossed us into hell or destroyed the human race right there and he would have been perfectly just and loving but he didn't.
I mean God doesn't owe anyone anything, we are the ones who have sinned against a good God who created us for HIM, he did not create us so we could criticize and use him. You seem to think 1) that the human race is equally if not more important compared to God
2) God owes us some massive favor
3) God is here to please the human race.
God is not a means to anyone's end and he's not going to be ever. God is a holy God and you only need to look at the 10 commandments to find out that your not. In fact forget the 10 commandments look around you, how is your lust, anger, jealousy, pride doing in comparison to holiness? No one forced you to sin.
For example a rapist, he has the same sin nature as you, what separates him from you? He made a free will choice to rape, God didn't force him nor did his birth. So sin is free will. Started with adam and eve and continues to today.
and as for africans not knowing Jesus and going to hell I'm glad you brought it up.
You see if calvinism and God's sovereignty in saving sinners we're not true, you would be right, and those sinners in africa would never have a chance to be saved. Thankfully salvation is of the Lord and he hasn't left it up to corrupt mankind to choose or reject him.
I want you to think about this for a second,
if God isn't sovereingly making provisions and choosing to save lost people, then theres only 2 more sources of decision making who decide who gets saved.
man who we have already established is unholy, loves sin and wants to stay in it just like you idra and me before God saved me.
or the devil who would have us all killed.
So good God or evil man with a sin nature, who would you leave it up to?
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how does god choose for the people who don't know about him though
like sinners who never have the opportunity to learn about god/jesus, how are they supposed to know not to sin? how are they supposed to know even what a sin is?
also you talk as if we owe everything to god, as if existence is, by its very nature, a positive, which could be disputed. what do you say of an infant born to die? what do you say of people born to contract horrible diseases and die under excruciating circumstances that are of no fault of their own? i definitely wouldn't say life is unequivocally better than nonexistence, especially for the people i've mentioned. what do they owe to god?
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If God is going to save someone in Africa about 1000 AD like you said he'll find a way. SpiritofTunA
For example muslims in heavily persecuted countries where Christianity is basically outlawed, have had conversion experiences where they've had dreams which were about a man in white which they often later find out is Jesus a bit like a Damascus road experience with the apostle Paul. God will move heaven and earth to save one sinner.
how are they supposed to know not to sin? how are they supposed to know even what a sin is?
human morality, your conscience in other words. The bible calls it the law of God written on your heart. Refusing to do whats right by your conscience and the feeling of guilt that stems from it, refusing to abide by your conscience by free will testifies against them when they walk not according to it and makes them guilty as sinners as Jews in Jerusalem who had the written law of moses and disobeyed.
Also again looking at nature, calculating there is a God and then either ignoring him, saying he doesn't exist therefore effectively making man his own god or making graven images and false religions that are always about what God can do for you and never what you do for God.
As for your whole scientific arguments against God and using that as excuse to remove the guilt of sin from yourselves. How about the 300+ prophecies for filled by Jesus that were written hundreds of years before his birth? No religious book like that on earth not the quran or anything else. What about the majority view of scholars absolutely agreeing that Jesus really was crucified in Jerusalem by pontius pilate by roman secular historians who were known to individually be very very careful with their details and accuracy.
There is a well backed up case for the historical Jesus. Not to mention the fact that somehow from before Jesus's resurrection we had a band of disciples who we're denying Jesus, weak in their faith, scattered and then didn't even show up to see Jesus rise on the 3rd day like he said he would, instead they were all hiding, and then we see the book of acts the religion spreading like wildfire and the disciples being hard as nails in the face of opposition and growing massively from a very little amount of people and even under massive persecution.
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So there is free will except for when there isn't.
how convenient
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On February 16 2009 10:13 TechniQ.UK wrote:
For example muslims in heavily persecuted countries where Christianity is basically outlawed, have had conversion experiences where they've had dreams which were about a man in white which they often later find out is Jesus a bit like a Damascus road experience with the apostle Paul. God will move heaven and earth to save one sinner.
i seriously doubt every single muslim has had a christian god related dream
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also, the conscience isnt always right. study psychology, you'll always have strong mental resistance to challenging the established norm, but that's what got copernicus, galileo, newton, etc to defeat the incorrect established physics of aristotle. i'm not saying they werne't christian, but how do you differentiate when a mental resistance is appropriate "conscience" to prevent sin and how do you know when mental resistance is actually wrong? there's that mob mentality of the stanford prison experiment where perfectly normal and well-adjusted students became complete monsters, and psychology attributes this transformation to the prototype of the prison guard and doing what feels "correct" in that regard. how were they supposed to know that that particular feeling of "correctness" was completely wrong and amoral?
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I didn't say every muslim had it but many do.
Mindcrime go and read the part i put about the rapist again and think your own thoughts please instead of arguing for the sake of arguing.
Of course not everyones conscience is the same, it gets softened towards sin as it's commited more and more and the person gets into deeper and deeper immorality.
As for the prison experiment yeap ive heard about that before, but i'd simply say it was human wickedness revealed just like with the nazi's. At the end of the day one must remember that average nazi's who killed jews and such and I don't mean hitler youth I mean grown men who we're not raised in nazi indoctrination, grown men ridiculing jews, eventually killing jews and supporting the killing of Jews I mean yes hitler was a great speaker and the top level nazi's have great responsibility but I mean the average german who applauded the actions of hitler not even out of fear and the german soldiers/ss soldiers who took part in the killings of Jews on the ground and the rounding up of them and over looking of them in the camps, so many people say they we're all hypnotized and totally reject any responsibility of the people involved which I think is just self-delusion really.
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On February 16 2009 10:23 TechniQ.UK wrote:
I didn't say every muslim had it but many do.
then what happens to the ones that don't, aren't sinners by nature but maybe committed a few sins in misjudgement and are unable to 'correctly' atone by way of the christian god's forgiveness?
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On February 16 2009 10:23 TechniQ.UK wrote:
Mindcrime go and read the part i put about the rapist again and think your own thoughts please instead of arguing for the sake of arguing.
On February 16 2009 09:55 TechniQ.UK wrote:
Thankfully salvation is of the Lord and he hasn't left it up to corrupt mankind to choose or reject him.
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Mindcrime
Both are completely unrelated, im talking about free will in terms to commit rape in one case and free will and God's sovereignty in terms of mans salvation in another.
As for you uhh tuna. Every sinner is born with a sin nature, they don't want to give up sin, seek God or stop sinning.
Thats why God must seek them and he does.
One of the chief evidences of someone who can be saved is that they actually realise their sinful or hopeless or empty state, and go looking for God. Instead of prideful self-sufficient athiests who love their sin and want to stay in it and deny their wickedness and instead go as far as to say God is not real to justify it.
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On February 16 2009 10:32 TechniQ.UK wrote:
Mindcrime
Both are completely unrelated, im talking about free will in terms to commit rape in one case and free will and God's sovereignty in terms of mans salvation in another.
As for you uhh tuna. Every sinner is born with a sin nature, they don't want to give up sin, seek God or stop sinning.
Thats why God must seek them and he does.
but you admitted yourself that not all muslims would have this dream
god
does
not
seek
every
single
individual
there's not a single record of the christian god in south africa or east asia before christianity historically got there via other people, and even if there were 1 or 2, there's no way that the millions of chinese/japanese/korean/southafrican each had a personal experience with god and an opportunity to stop sinning
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I didn't say every single person can be saved anywhere did I nor did I say God seeks every individual?
For example the story with pharaoh and Moses, you see God several times sending Moses to see if pharaoh wants to repent, and turn away and be saved and save his nation, God does not do it in a bad and anger filled manner but does it by sending Moses in humility to honestly ask Pharaoh to repent in real kindness several times. You don't think God could of just as easily blown Pharaoh to bits and set the Jews free instantly?
So by God acting in kindness several times, pharaoh kept on rejecting him and every time Pharaohs heart was hardened.
It's like the gospel preacher, perhaps the nicest guy you ever met, he comes up to you and he says "son, now im saying this because I love you, your on your way to hell but theres a way to be saved and it's Jesus Christ he died for you" and you ridicule him or ignore him by a choice of utter free will.
or perhaps a family member, who shares the gospel message with you in love and tenderness and you again reject the free offer of salvation presented to you.
If you accept it you will be saved but you simply won't even though it is a sincere free offer of salvation, you'd rather stay with your way of life because you love to exercise free will to sin.
So don't blame God for that. Don't cover up your guilt. God's offer is to all men, but they simply won't come so he works to get them himself.
If anyone wants to come to Jesus they may come and be saved and that's even valid in calvinism.
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On February 16 2009 10:23 TechniQ.UK wrote:
I didn't say every muslim had it but many do.
Mindcrime go and read the part i put about the rapist again and think your own thoughts please instead of arguing for the sake of arguing.
Of course not everyones conscience is the same, it gets softened towards sin as it's commited more and more and the person gets into deeper and deeper immorality.
As for the prison experiment yeap ive heard about that before, but i'd simply say it was human wickedness revealed just like with the nazi's. At the end of the day one must remember that average nazi's who killed jews and such and I don't mean hitler youth I mean grown men who we're not raised in nazi indoctrination, grown men ridiculing jews, eventually killing jews and supporting the killing of Jews I mean yes hitler was a great speaker and the top level nazi's have great responsibility but I mean the average german who applauded the actions of hitler not even out of fear and the german soldiers/ss soldiers who took part in the killings of Jews on the ground and the rounding up of them and over looking of them in the camps, so many people say they we're all hypnotized and totally reject any responsibility of the people involved which I think is just self-delusion really.
it's not self delusion, it's human nature. it feels more "right" to go with the flow than to challenge it.
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On February 16 2009 10:38 TechniQ.UK wrote:
I didn't say every single person can be saved anywhere did I nor did I say God seeks every individual?
then there are people who are completely destined, without fail, to go to hell? millions and millions, if not billions?
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also the fact that you're claiming that all atheists love sin is simply ridiculous. "god is not real" is not a justification of sin, it's one of the possible explanations of all the contradictions within support for god. ptolemy tried to slightly modify aristotlean physics to make it still work, but copernicus/newton/galileo threw them out and got the right answer.
aristotle = bible
ptolemy = each denomination of christianity (or even judaism and islam)
copernicus/newton/galileo = agnosticism/atheism
ptolemy could've been right, but he wasnt
each denomination could be right since they're all tweaks of the same basic concept, and i'm not saying that all of them HAVE to be wrong, but if one of them is right, then the others have to be wrong, and adhering to one is like playing the lottery
not a very good chance
EDIT i never adopted atheism in order to justify anything, i was born into a godless family that i feel is still basically moral, and i never felt any need to ask any god for forgiveness. i've always viewed god as one possible explanation of the universe rather than an entity needed to absolve myself of sins i don't feel i truly have. you could call this denial, and you probably will, but the fact that different moral sets exist, even within different sects of "god-worshippers," like the kosher diet of orthodox jews or complete pacifism vs non of christian sects proves that sin seems way too subjective to be absolute. the fact that god doesn't actively mediate every argument on what constitutes sin means that you could be just as wrong about sin as you claim i am.
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On February 16 2009 10:38 TechniQ.UK wrote:
I didn't say every single person can be saved anywhere did I nor did I say God seeks every individual?
so the percentage of individuals worth saving in africa and east asia just happened to be a millionth of what it was in the christian world, and suddenly shot up when christianity reached them?
isnt that nifty
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oh youve gone even further off the deep end
As for you uhh tuna. Every sinner is born with a sin nature, they don't want to give up sin, seek God or stop sinning.
Thats why God must seek them and he does.
On February 16 2009 10:38 TechniQ.UK wrote:
I didn't say every single person can be saved anywhere did I nor did I say God seeks every individual?
you said god was fair and just
in these quotes you say
A. everyone is born with a sinners nature, that they dont want to give up. so god must seek them out
B.god does not seek every individual
now if EVERYONE is born evil and does not want to give it up, but god only chooses to save some of them, how is that fair or just?
One of the chief evidences of someone who can be saved is that they actually realise their sinful or hopeless or empty state, and go looking for God. I
you pretend to address it here but you said before that everyone born with a sinner nature (and according to previous posts everyone is born with a sinner nature) does not want to give it up.
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On February 16 2009 10:13 TechniQ.UK wrote:
As for your whole scientific arguments against God and using that as excuse to remove the guilt of sin from yourselves. How about the 300+ prophecies for filled by Jesus that were written hundreds of years before his birth?
How about the prophecies he did not fulfill? You know; many of the ones the Tanakh says that the messiah is supposed to fulfill.
Returning all Jews to Israel
He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.
-Isaiah 11:12
The dead will rise
But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.
-Isaiah 26:19
the ruined cities of Israel will be restored
And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before.
-Ezekiel 16:55
Weapons of war will be destroyed
" 'Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up—the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel.
-Ezekiel 39: 9
Jews will know the Torah without needing to study it
"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
-Jeremiah 31:33
EDIT: But I'm sure he'll do those things "next time" won't he?
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yeah it's not a fucking scientific argument agianst god in order to justify sin, its a scientific argument against god because we want to learn new things about the universe, and when we do, we question theology's explanation of events that science has given evidence against. in fact, many christians now choose not to accept parts of the bible literally, such as genesis, but as simplified metaphor of how the earth literally formed. evolution isn't an enemy of christianity in general, it's an enemy of the literal interpretation of genesis. every scientific observation that disagrees with an instance within the bible isn't an argument against the whole of the religion, but when so many holes are punched within the bible, a scientist has to question its source and adherents, and ask for explanations consistent with both scientific observations AND theological principles
dogma is the greatest enemy of reason, and as someone with a very scientific mindset, perhaps my most dogmatic belief is that dogma needs to be destroyed
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Look the line between God's sovereignty and free will is a really really confusing one but at the end of the day following the principal that "all who will may come" is true both of Calvinism and arminianism and I don't want to get into predestination and all the rest of it anymore.
You can sit here and have theories about heathens in africa 2000 years ago and harden your hearts that way or you can sit here with a humble heart and ask yourselves, do I need a saviour?
If someone wants to come to God the Calvinists will say it's an act of God's sovereignty and the Arminians will say well amen another sinner chose God. and both will rejoice. You think I want you to go to hell? No I love all of you but I can't love you if I don't tell the truth.
God desires all sinners repent and turn to him so that they might have life.
For example in Ezekiel
Say to them,As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?
Whosoever cometh unto me I will in no wise cast out.
In the gospel God commands all men everywhere to repent and to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ
Jesus accepts EVERY man or woman who repents. I'm not going to argue over theology about who can and cannot repent anymore, at the end of the day, repent and believe and you will be saved, if not and you reject the gospel call then well have fun you chose your own fate.
Like I said I'm a moderate Calvinist. I believe the gospel is open and can be effective to everyone but you simply will not come and I would beg all of you reading even today, sit down and really consider it, forget about your religious past growing up or whatever and complicated questions like "am i elect or predestinated or did i choose God" save that for a few weeks after your saved.
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You can sit here and have theories about the condition of the heart and arbitrary 'sins' that you feel we need to repent for and harden your heart that way or you can sit here with a open heart and ask yourself, would i like an explanation for every aspect of the universe?
join science today
like, how the hell is attempting to advance human knowledge a huge front for sinners, inc? that's how you make it sound, as if all of the scientific community is only trying to build up a huge excuse to not become "good." what's more selfish, finding your own personal jesus (hehe depeche mode) and savior for your own sins, or trying to advance the knowledge of all humankind in matters of the physical universe we happen to live in? because the two often contradict, and in your case, you can't have both (because i mean, advancing knowledge is a myth, right? if i tried to do that, i'm obviously subconsciously trying to make an excuse for not believing in god).
newton was a christian, einstein was a christian/agnostic, and the wonderful thing about science is that you don't need to believe in anything in particular to get into it and advance it, all you need is curiosity
but according to you, it's not curiosity, it's excuse-seeking
god you're pissing me off so much
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On February 16 2009 11:02 TechniQ.UK wrote:
You can sit here and have theories about heathens in africa 2000 years ago and harden your hearts that way or you can sit here with a humble heart and ask yourselves, do I need a saviour?
IM NOT TRYING TO HARDEN MY HEART I AM SHARING IN MY SYMPATHY FOR THOSE WRETCHED FOOLS WHO NEVER HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO BASK IN THE LIGHT THAT IS OUR LORD AND SAVIOR
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you're ADVOCATING being ignorant to the plight of others in order to save myself first???
what if i care as to the ROOT of the plight of others, which i don't simply accept as all the theology you're shoving in my direction?
SORRY IM NOT AS HASTY AS YOU IN SAVING MYSELF AND OTHERS, I PREFER TO FIND OUT IF THE METHODOLOGY IS EVEN CORRECT
i could sit here drinking mercury in order to cleanse my mortal soul if that's what you were trying to convince me of, or i could QUESTION if you're even right about anything in the first place.
questioning could've saved the money of a bunch of poor people that the catholic church extorted by selling plenary indulgences
questioning could've prevented the holocaust, if the adherents to nazism asked "hey are the jews really the cause of all of germany's problems?"
questioning could've fixed so much, but you dismiss questioning as a way to generate excuses against your TRUTH WHICH HAS TO BE RIGHT, NO WAY IT COULD POSSIBLY BE WRONG, THAT NEVER HAPPENS TO ANYBODY, RIGHT?
dogma or reason, dogma or reason
that's always the battle
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WAIT HOLD UP
i just had a crazy conversion experience
saint xzasxqr
came up and told me in a dream that the secret to obtaining absolution is setting yourself on fire
fire is what god created to purify our souls
bbl self immolation
seeya, sinner faggots
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wait no, upon further inspection, i was just on a crazy acid trip
reason saves another mortal!
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tl;dr version:
reason is admitting that you aren't sure of something, and attempting to find out more about it before drawing a conclusion
dogma is drawing a conclusion with any amount of evidence, to eitehr serve your own needs (such as absolution), or to absolve yourself of the duty of reason in that particular field (in order to quicken your pace towards a privilege gained from making that conclusion)
being a victim of dogma is understandable, considering how much pressure it exerts in some parts of the world (like the conservative islamic states you've mentioned)
but being a proponent of dogma? that makes you my enemy.
+ Show Spoiler + i'm just full of quotables today
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