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Demagogue - a person, esp. an orator or political leader, who gains power and popularity by arousing the emotions, passions, and prejudices of the people.
- to treat or manipulate (a political issue) in the manner of a demagogue; obscure or distort with emotionalism, prejudice, etc.
The current state of affairs on Capital Hill is not only appalling from a Constitutional standpoint, but on the very premise of how the government operates.
Is it not too much to ask of our representatives to actually read legislation before voting on said legislation. Does it not make logical sense to do this? How can anyone know the full scope, or hell even know what the bill contains if they do not read it? How then can any sane person come to vote for something they have not read.
This is the current situation currently in our nation's capital. Compounded by a President who seeks action 2 seconds ago, on a rush to destroy every institution that built this nation. From attacks on private citizens, to attacks on our Private markets, to disregarding bankruptcy laws in favor of constituency groups to blatantly bypassing senate treaty ratification laws that are etched into the Constitution itself, to numerous other atrocious attacks on the people of this country.
How much more are we going to take before we are pushed too far? Cap and Trade? Here's a little excerpt:
Here’s what the Democrats have planned for you. The program requires that states label their buildings so that we can all know how efficient every building (that includes residential and non-residential buildings) is and it requires that the information be made public. To that end, the bill suggests a number of circumstances under which the states could inspect a building, including:
(A) preparation, and public disclosure of the label through filing with tax and title records at the time of–
(i) a building audit conducted with support from Federal or State funds;
(ii) a building energy-efficiency retrofit conducted in response to such an audit;
(iii) a final inspection of major renovations or additions made to a building in accordance with a building permit issued by a local government entity;
(iv) a sale that is recorded for title and tax purposes consistent with paragraph (8);
(v) a new lien recorded on the property for more than a set percentage of the assessed value of the property, if that lien reflects public financial assistance for energy-related improvements to that building; or
(vi) a change in ownership or operation of the building for purposes of utility billing; or
(B) other appropriate means.
Pay close attention to (iii), (iv), and (vi) because those hit you right where you live. What that’s saying is the state will be empowered to inspect your home if you want to 1) renovate your house in any way that requires a building permit, 2) sell your house, or 3) change the name of the person responsible for any utility bill.
By now, if you haven’t swallowed your tongue and are in need of medical attention, you’re probably wondering if there’s a penalty for not being in compliance with the new efficiency ratings. The answer is no, and yes. Here’s where the bill gets really sneaky. So far as I can tell, there is no direct penalty if your house does not meet the bill’s target. However, it does require that the number of buildings inspected by the state meet certain percentage targets and if they do not, the state loses out on a significant portion of the money it could get from Washington. In other words, the bill demands certain things from the states, but ties funding for those demands to compliance with the demands.
If this is not scary in a supposed free country, then you are what I eloquently call a drone. Chirping along with the deathknell of your own freedom and liberty in the name of pseudo-science and an ill-fated ideology. You don't have to look farther than East Germany, USSR, Modern day Britain (Who by the way, is worst off than the US financially, which is hard to imagine seeing as how 1/5th of our GDP will be going to interest payments on our debt).
Do statements like this not make you cringe?
“If every member pledged to not vote for it if they hadn’t read it in its entirety, I think we would have very few votes,” Hoyer told CNSNews.com at his regular weekly news conference.
Hoyer was responding to a question from CNSNews.com on whether he supported a pledge that asks members of the Congress to read the entire bill before voting on it and also make the full text of the bill available to the public for 72 hours before a vote.
In fact, Hoyer found the idea of the pledge humorous, laughing as he responded to the question. “I’m laughing because a) I don’t know how long this bill is going to be, but it’s going to be a very long bill,” he said.
“Members clearly–and staff and review boards, they read them in their entirety. They go over it with members, and members read substantial portions of the bill themselves, but the issue is–I don’t know who signed this (pledge), but frankly the opposition has been very vociferous, not of the verbiage and bill, but on the concept that it incorporates,” Hoyer said.
Let Freedom Ring, a Delaware-based conservative organization, is circulating a pledge that asks members of Congress to promise to read the entirety of the final text of a health-care reform bill before they vote on it. They also are asking that the full bill be made available for review by the public for 72 hours before Congress votes on it.
So much for the most deliberative body politic in the world. How do people like this represent you? The answer: They Don't. When will America wake up? Is it going to take the total collapse and destruction of the dollar and everything you hold dear before people wake up? That day is fast approaching. Once they get ahold of your health, your home, your property (Well, it seems like in todays world you lease even when you buy, go figure), your energy, well, that leaves you with destitution. We know DOJ E. Holder wants to confiscate your weapons. We know that FEMA camps were recently approved on military installations. We know recently circulated memos hint at the future.
Wake up people! If you don't act now, and soon the situation will become so much more dire (Which is hard to imagine). For a budget trillions in deficit (They have all ready doubled the deficit they inherited in 6 months! Can only imagine how much higher it will go if the Healthcare fiasco ever gets passed), how do you expect to keep spending like this and not ending up like the Weimar Republic or Zimbabwe?
Back to the point on incessant attacks on private citizens. How, or why is it any part of the governments responsibility to police, or to confiscate the property and earnings of private citizens solely on the basis they make more? I'm not sure if people realize, but when you attack the wealth creators and those people who start enterprises you are attacking yourself and your future. These are the people who create opportunities, jobs, capital, and drive the foundation of what made America the economic power it used to be. On a deeper level however, it is abhorrent for the citizens of a country to turn on other citizens and deny them, confiscate, or otherwise steal their labor. This is fundamental in the Declaration of Independence, US Constitution, and Bill of Rights. It is quite appalling.
Well, I'll leave it at that. As a parting word:
"A spirit of innovation is generally the result of a selfish temper and confined views. People will not look forward to posterity, who never look backward to their ancestors." - Edmund Burke
 
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
source? (besides incredibly biased news sites?)
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Most of this is entirely copypasted from here.
Let's look at how garbage that source is:
From the website:
" We believe in and will champion the conservative values that make the United States of America a blessed nation: small government, a strong and ready national defense, low taxes, and a government that encourages entrepreneurship and new job creation in America. We also know how critical it is for America to win the war against the radical Islamic extremists abroad so we do not have to fight them here on American soil.
Not too long ago, Ronald Reagan inspired a generation of Americans to renew their sense of patriotism and faith in America by supporting economic expansion and a strong national defense.
Today, we find those uniquely American values under attack and once again need to turn to strong, effective leadership to solve the many problems our nation faces.
The bottom line: American Issues Project will always stand strong for the American ideals that make this country special and promote conservative values that have stood the test of time."
Incredibly biased right wing rants ftw!
Edit:
If this is not scary in a supposed free country, then you are what I eloquently call a drone. Chirping along with the deathknell of your own freedom and liberty in the name of pseudo-science and an ill-fated ideology. Demagogue - a person, esp. an orator or political leader, who gains power and popularity by arousing the emotions, passions, and prejudices of the people. - to treat or manipulate (a political issue) in the manner of a demagogue; obscure or distort with emotionalism, prejudice, etc. Seriously?
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this is why i support a libertarian monarchy
Fact: a monarch has one ruler. Democracy has "the people," meaning everyone rules or there are lots of "rulers."
Fact: a minority of people are not stupid.
Therefore: under monarchy, you have at least have a small chance of being ruled by intelligent people. Under democracy, you have no chance of being ruled by intelligent people.
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On July 09 2009 04:57 Caller wrote:
this is why i support a libertarian monarchy
Fact: a monarch has one ruler. Democracy has "the people," meaning everyone rules or there are lots of "rulers."
Fact: a minority of people are not stupid.
Therefore: under monarchy, you have at least have a small chance of being ruled by intelligent people. Under democracy, you have no chance of being ruled by intelligent people.
I prefer a Constitutional Republic. If only people weren't so apathetic, we would actually enforce our constitution, like honduras.
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Personally I support an Anarcho- fascist government. Common political science framework for governance.
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On July 09 2009 04:48 triangle wrote:Most of this is entirely copypasted from here. Let's look at how garbage that source is: From the website: " We believe in and will champion the conservative values that make the United States of America a blessed nation: small government, a strong and ready national defense, low taxes, and a government that encourages entrepreneurship and new job creation in America. We also know how critical it is for America to win the war against the radical Islamic extremists abroad so we do not have to fight them here on American soil. Not too long ago, Ronald Reagan inspired a generation of Americans to renew their sense of patriotism and faith in America by supporting economic expansion and a strong national defense. Today, we find those uniquely American values under attack and once again need to turn to strong, effective leadership to solve the many problems our nation faces. The bottom line: American Issues Project will always stand strong for the American ideals that make this country special and promote conservative values that have stood the test of time." Incredibly biased right wing rants ftw! Edit: Show nested quote +If this is not scary in a supposed free country, then you are what I eloquently call a drone. Chirping along with the deathknell of your own freedom and liberty in the name of pseudo-science and an ill-fated ideology. Show nested quote +Demagogue - a person, esp. an orator or political leader, who gains power and popularity by arousing the emotions, passions, and prejudices of the people. - to treat or manipulate (a political issue) in the manner of a demagogue; obscure or distort with emotionalism, prejudice, etc. Seriously?
What does any of that have to do with the fact of the matter of what is actually written in the bill. Do you have a different analysis of the prospects of the atrocious cap and trade bill? Do you support government intrusion into your personal property which is a founding tenant of Liberty and Freedom?
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On July 09 2009 05:01 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2009 04:48 triangle wrote:Most of this is entirely copypasted from here. Let's look at how garbage that source is: From the website: " We believe in and will champion the conservative values that make the United States of America a blessed nation: small government, a strong and ready national defense, low taxes, and a government that encourages entrepreneurship and new job creation in America. We also know how critical it is for America to win the war against the radical Islamic extremists abroad so we do not have to fight them here on American soil. Not too long ago, Ronald Reagan inspired a generation of Americans to renew their sense of patriotism and faith in America by supporting economic expansion and a strong national defense. Today, we find those uniquely American values under attack and once again need to turn to strong, effective leadership to solve the many problems our nation faces. The bottom line: American Issues Project will always stand strong for the American ideals that make this country special and promote conservative values that have stood the test of time." Incredibly biased right wing rants ftw! Edit: If this is not scary in a supposed free country, then you are what I eloquently call a drone. Chirping along with the deathknell of your own freedom and liberty in the name of pseudo-science and an ill-fated ideology. Demagogue - a person, esp. an orator or political leader, who gains power and popularity by arousing the emotions, passions, and prejudices of the people. - to treat or manipulate (a political issue) in the manner of a demagogue; obscure or distort with emotionalism, prejudice, etc. Seriously? What does any of that have to do with the fact of the matter of what is actually written in the bill. Do you have a different analysis of the prospects of the atrocious cap and trade bill? Do you support government intrusion into your personal property which is a founding tenant of Liberty and Freedom?
I Imagine this website was quite fine with the patriot act.
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United States1865 Posts
lol
so the bill will allow them to inspect your house if you are making modifications to it, presumedly to convince you to make green / energy efficient changes because the state has a monetary incentive to do so
if you choose not to comply there are no penalties.
yeah that sounds pretty fucking horrendous. truly the same as East Germany and the USSR
i personally am proud of the fact that my country guzzles energy in the most completely ineffecient way possible with absolutely no regard for the future complications that is gonna create. Who the hell wants to have a cleaner environment and a more energy independant country
fucking democrats am i right?
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Have you ever been bothered by "government intrusion into your personal property?" If you have nothing to hide (aka aren't a terrorist) you should have nothing to worry about with the government snooping around.
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On July 09 2009 05:37 redtooth wrote:
Have you ever been bothered by "government intrusion into your personal property?" If you have nothing to hide (aka aren't a terrorist) you should have nothing to worry about with the government snooping around.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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I like how you put the part where you look like a hypocrite in spoiler tags :p
So far as I can tell, there is no direct penalty if your house does not meet the bill’s target. However, it does require that the number of buildings inspected by the state meet certain percentage targets and if they do not, the state loses out on a significant portion of the money it could get from Washington. In other words, the bill demands certain things from the states, but ties funding for those demands to compliance with the demands. Correct me if I misunderstand:
1. States have an incentive to be more energy efficient but
2. They can't force you to do anything
I don't see the problem with that... Basically this tries to make America more energy efficient. Ok...
From a summer job working with a health analysis company, let me tell you there is a LOT of personal information floating around that is very easy to access. If you are this panicked about personal "liberty" (which seems to be more like privacy), I would be far more terrified of other stuff.
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On July 09 2009 05:37 redtooth wrote:
Have you ever been bothered by "government intrusion into your personal property?" If you have nothing to hide (aka aren't a terrorist) you should have nothing to worry about with the government snooping around.
If I have nothing to hide what gives the government the right to snoop around?
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To be honest Aegraen, i think the biggest problem with the U.S. is people like you, who put their personal ideological views as the ultimate source of logic and sense, doesn't matter if you are liberal, conservative, from the left, right or any other nonsense. People who put ideology before everything else and are willing to twist the facts, use scare tactics and maybe even just lie to support it are the real issue with your country.
Sorry mods for the ad hominem, but to be honest im not even arguing, just expresing my dislike for this type of attitude.
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is awesome32277 Posts
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On July 09 2009 06:18 CrimsonLotus wrote:
To be honest Aegraen, i think the biggest problem with the U.S. is people like you, who put their personal ideological views as the ultimate source of logic and sense, doesn't matter if you are liberal, conservative, from the left, right or any other nonsense. People who put ideology before everything else and are willing to twist the facts, use scare tactics and maybe even just lie to support it are the real issue with your country.
Sorry mods for the ad hominem, but to be honest im not even arguing, just expresing my dislike for this type of attitude.
God forbid we have our representatives read legislation. So much for transparency.
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...You didn't respond to him at all.
successful troll
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The kind of bureaucratic society which will succeed democracy will not be comparable to the Soviet Union, which was after all, the manifestation of modernity in a form particular to Russian traditions. In America, the same advance of bureaucracy will enter stroking particularly American weaknesses.
I think the succession of democracy by bureaucracy extremely likely, and that in America at least, this will be abetted by her surreal optimism. American optimism is much the same thing as American fatalism, characterized as it is by this liberal avoidance of thinking about unpleasant things, and taking responsibility for them. It is a particularly American belief that the unpleasant side of life can be taken care of by someone else.
Relating more to the topic, I think people should read and re-read Tocqueville's chapters on What Sort Of Despotism Democratic Nations Have To Fear, as it describes what is happening to the relationship between government and society with uncanny prescience.
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I got something completely different out of the OP then everyone else it seems. Th issue I see being brought up in the OP is that the elected officials dont read what they are voting on. I have known this for quite some time. I have to agree this is a serious issue. Reading of the bills should be mandatory.
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On July 09 2009 06:41 Mastermind wrote:
I got something completely different out of the OP then everyone else it seems. Th issue I see being brought up in the OP is that the elected officials dont read what they are voting on. I have known this for quite some time. I have to agree this is a serious issue. Reading of the bills should be mandatory.
Yes, and this is inevitable in our time, to quote one of my favourite historians:
In the democratic age, more and more people speak. In the bureaucratic age, fewer and fewer people listen.
Substitute speaking for writing, and listening for reading, and you have a fairly good generalization of what is happening, not only in government, but in universities, businesses, and everywhere else in society.
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On July 09 2009 04:57 Caller wrote:
this is why i support a libertarian monarchy
Fact: a monarch has one ruler. Democracy has "the people," meaning everyone rules or there are lots of "rulers."
Fact: a minority of people are not stupid.
Therefore: under monarchy, you have at least have a small chance of being ruled by intelligent people. Under democracy, you have no chance of being ruled by intelligent people.
There are certainly good arguments as to why monarchies are better protectors of liberties than democracies, but this is not really one of them. Also, wtf is a 'libertarian monarchy'? Libertarians are against the use of coercion, and any form of government requires coercion to exist. Therefore I find it sort of weird to call a monarchy libertarian. I guess you mean that the ruler has libertarian leanings? In which case why do they maintain the monarchy?
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On July 09 2009 07:17 tec27 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2009 04:57 Caller wrote:
this is why i support a libertarian monarchy
Fact: a monarch has one ruler. Democracy has "the people," meaning everyone rules or there are lots of "rulers."
Fact: a minority of people are not stupid.
Therefore: under monarchy, you have at least have a small chance of being ruled by intelligent people. Under democracy, you have no chance of being ruled by intelligent people. There are certainly good arguments as to why monarchies are better protectors of liberties than democracies, but this is not really one of them. Also, wtf is a 'libertarian monarchy'? Libertarians are against the use of coercion, and any form of government requires coercion to exist. Therefore I find it sort of weird to call a monarchy libertarian. I guess you mean that the ruler has libertarian leanings? In which case why do they maintain the monarchy?
first of all not seriousness at all is serious
second of all, a monarchical libertarianism would be essentially that all government powers are under one ruler, but the ruler is restricted by law to do pretty much everything. so picture america, minus congress and the supreme court, and minus anything that begins with the words "department of."
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Truth is stranger than theory;
what Americans call Libertarian is more or less the intellectual inheritance of the Austrian economics.
Mises was a friend to Otto Habsburg, who in turn is wont to depict the late Austrian Empire as a more or less libertarian society.
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On July 09 2009 07:26 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Truth is stranger than theory;
what Americans call Libertarian is more or less the intellectual inheritance of the Austrian economics.
Mises was a friend to Otto Habsburg, who in turn is wont to depict the late Austrian Empire as a more or less libertarian society.
I find that Libertarianism finds its roots embedded within Objectivism. It's hard to underscore the importance Ayn Rand played on modern day libertarianism. Laissez-Faire and the workings of Mises plays both an integral role in the LP and Conservative constituencies. So, to say that LP is the only philosophy that cherishes the importance of free-market capitalism is a falsehood. Secondly, while economics plays a key role in any philosophy, Libertarianism also has a specific philosophy in regards to the role of government.
In fact, the two founders of the LP were Goldwater/Taft conservatives. If only conservatives and libertarians would either, re-take the GOP, or defect to the libertarian party that would be a great day. I'm quite sick of all the RINO's the likes of Collins, Snowe, Powell, Graham, McCain, Martinez, etc.
I find myself one of the traditional conservatives like a Taft while also sharing many ideals with Ayn Rand and Libertarianism.
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On July 09 2009 06:19 IntoTheWow wrote:
successful troll
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On July 09 2009 04:16 Aegraen wrote:
Wake up people! If you don't act now, and soon the situation will become so much more dire (Which is hard to imagine). For a budget trillions in deficit (They have all ready doubled the deficit they inherited in 6 months! Can only imagine how much higher it will go if the Healthcare fiasco ever gets passed), how do you expect to keep spending like this and not ending up like the Weimar Republic or Zimbabwe?
I'm curious as to this point; last I checked the external debt now is about a trillion lower than it was in 2007. Not that the nation's debt isn't high, but what source are you using?
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Deficit =/= debt.
Deficit is how fast your debt is increasing. Debt is how much you owe.
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On July 09 2009 08:40 G0dly wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2009 04:16 Aegraen wrote:
Wake up people! If you don't act now, and soon the situation will become so much more dire (Which is hard to imagine). For a budget trillions in deficit (They have all ready doubled the deficit they inherited in 6 months! Can only imagine how much higher it will go if the Healthcare fiasco ever gets passed), how do you expect to keep spending like this and not ending up like the Weimar Republic or Zimbabwe?
I'm curious as to this point; last I checked the external debt now is about a trillion lower than it was in 2007. Not that the nation's debt isn't high, but what source are you using?
Read the latest CBO projections and reports. By 2018 we are expected to have a 13.5 trillion deficit (The budget approved by the 111th Congress). Obama, coming into office had a 5.5 trillion deficit.
It took the US over 220 years to reach 5.5 Trillion, in 10 years he is going to derail this nation. Just this year we have a 1.8-2.0 Trillion deficit nearly half of what the nation accumulated in its entire existence. We aren't even done with FY09 and the democrats are talking about a second stimulus and socialized healthcare which is reported to be another 2$ trillion a YEAR. Good lord, can you be any more reckless?
Here is an easy to see CBO budget graph.
I was against the reckless spending the previous administration and all prior. On top of this we have monetized our debt (I urge you to do a little research about this topic), which was the death stroke for this country. No country on the face of this planet has ever overcame doing this. It has meant certain destruction every single time. In lamens terms we are essentially printing our own bonds to pay our own debt. In the end this makes our currency worth zero. The whole destabilization of the economy is all but guaranteed.
We need to end the FED and the IRS.
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sorry what exactly is so bad about these regulations, the mandatory inspections by qualified professionals can hardly hurt can they?. it isnt like the F.B.I. is going to interrogate you about your heating system....
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I love the over-dramatic bleeding hearts that rise in any political climate.
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EPT
