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On January 15 2009 06:49 Zozma wrote:
When Flash was a baby, do you think he rolled out of the crib and started owning ICcup players? It's my belief that there's no such thing as talent. Those who are called "talented" simply have more dedication, or better teachers, or a good mental state, or a better system of learning.
But if another person had these things, said person could be just as good.
APM isn't as large a factor as people make it out to be. Savior[gm] had his bonjwa reign with about 200 APM, and the highest APM player in the history of the league is Eliza, who doesn't really have that many accomplishments. Almost anyone can get their APM to 200 with practice.
Do you think Usain Bolt crawled out of his crib and started running 100meters?
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if you dont believe in talent when it comes to video games you need to buy a copy of SC:BW. i believe its a strategy game.
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On January 15 2009 06:46 TheFlashyOne wrote:
han 300 people practice SC for 10+ hours a day. thousands of people. tons of people have access to that guidance youre talking about. thousands of people. 300 spots is all we have. The best 300 will make it. the rest , sorry.
dont increase your restrictions by saying 'im excluding a lot of people that cannot be progamers...the rest, come on in buddy!' ...what you meant to do was excluding everyone but the 0.00001%
It comes down to talent buddy.
Well in a certain way I agree, of course it comes down to talent, that's what I stated above
After all, the top 300 couldn't fit more than 300! (lol)
So, even if, in my opinion, a large mass of players would be able to achieve progamers mechanics/coordination/knowledge, the very cream will still consist of the current top 30 Kespa, Maybe with a couple of modifications. Yes it does come down to talent.
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However I find it very interesting, where would we be know if people like Nony, Testie, Draco, Mondragon, Strelok, White-Ra etc etc (basically all the top non-kors) would have been given an equal chance as the progamers had
Imagine if someone like Testie grew up in Korea. Lol. That would have been interesting!
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Actually, talent exists. It is never so specifically focused on something like Starcraft, or running for that matter, but different people have different genes and some are naturally born with better reflexes /higher intelligence than others.It may be not what you consider to cause talent, but certain features make people like Bisu multitask/micro and make split second decisions like he does, and others like Rock SUCKS ASS because they never seem to get the game straight in their head, even if they practice in similar ways.
Though it is highly affected by training, talent does exist. A person with relatively slow reflexes can train to get better, and perhaps the respective person can even surpass another person who receives similar training but is more innately talented, however, when each person gets the training that is most effective for themselves(and when you play SC 12 hours per day for 2 years, to tend to become familiar with which training regimes suit you better), the one with TALENT will come ON TOP. It's the way life is.
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On January 15 2009 06:51 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2009 06:49 Zozma wrote:
When Flash was a baby, do you think he rolled out of the crib and started owning ICcup players? It's my belief that there's no such thing as talent. Those who are called "talented" simply have more dedication, or better teachers, or a good mental state, or a better system of learning.
But if another person had these things, said person could be just as good.
APM isn't as large a factor as people make it out to be. Savior[gm] had his bonjwa reign with about 200 APM, and the highest APM player in the history of the league is Eliza, who doesn't really have that many accomplishments. Almost anyone can get their APM to 200 with practice. Do you think Usain Bolt crawled out of his crib and started running 100meters? The fact that a baby can't run long distances doesn't have much to do with either of our arguments.
There's no doubt that there are certain physical conditions that will lend themselves to a "good runner" or a "bad runner", but if even someone who's had polio can recover and become a world-championship athlete again, I don't think that you can say that becoming great has more to do with how you're born than how you live.
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Best way to improve is to sit down for a month or so and just mass on iccup. And I mean mass. I played 100 games in like 2 weeks, got to C with a 50-49 record and I literally felt myself get much better. The real key, and this is the hardest part for most ppl. Is to NOT RESET stats on iccup. Even if your record is 20-40 or something. Play, Play, Play till you get a feel.
Of course learn the fundamentals first. And by fundamentals I mean learn how to execute build orders the proper way. Don't spend time worrying so much about splitting, or muta micro etc. Those things come later. They mean nothing if you don't have a solid knowledge of how to execute a BO.
Also something that helped me greatly when I started getting serious was mimic'ing a pro style. I got as many Nada replays as possible, watched as many fpvods as possible. Try to do exactly what they do. At least that's what I did. (and still do) I once saw boxer spamming in the early game, warming up etc, he hotkeyed his first depot. To this day I still hotkey my first depot as I warm up in the early game. Starcraft is such a great game because there are so many different styles and builds to do. Leaves it open for you to find your niche. Also when your like C and below, it really helps to play other races and get a more full feel for the game. Know what you hate when your playing zerg vs protoss so that when your playing protoss vs zerg, you can do exactly that.
Hope this helps.
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Well, also is there really like "talented" people in starcraft? Like lets say theres a person who practices alot and does everything correctly to get to a higher level. Then there's another person who does exactly the same thing, with the same conditions except he gets to the same level the other person is trying to get to faster. Can that happen?
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On January 15 2009 07:35 Racenilatr wrote:
Well, also is there really like "talented" people in starcraft? Like lets say theres a person who practices alot and does everything correctly to get to a higher level. Then there's another person who does exactly the same thing, with the same conditions except he gets to the same level the other person is trying to get to faster. Can that happen?
IIRC, in that old National Geographic documentary on Xellos, they did a brain scan of Xellos playing SC and a regular guy playing SC, and they found striking differences between the two.
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Racenilatr ..i think we discussed that in the few posts above..
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This reminds me of a guy named Tom Coyne who tried to become a professional golfer in a year by dedicating his life to it 100%. He wrote a book about it called "Paper Tiger". For those that dont know much about golf, a 14 handicap in golf id rate at about a D+ level on iccup. The skill level he eventually gets to is a + Handicap, which id equate to being somewhere in the A range. The average PGA tour player probably has a +4 handicap (where as Tiger has something probably like a +7 or +8) Heres a little bit from a site I found selling the book.
A lifelong golfer and former caddy, Tom Coyne could drive the ball 300 yards but always struggled against stiff competition; he had often wondered whether the pros won because they were more innately talented or just because they were more obsessed. On the cusp of turning thirty, overweight, and saddled with a 14 handicap, Coyne embarked on a yearlong quest to do everything he could to lift his game-and find out if he could make it through the PGA Tour Qualifying School.
Paper Tiger takes you on a rollicking ride into the beer-gutted underbelly of semipro golf, into a world of crash diets, punishing workout regimens, high-flying sports shrinks, cutting-edge club technology, and obscure tournaments. With his girlfriend as caddy, Coyne traverses from Miami to Chicago to Toronto to see how he stacks up against the competition. Ultimately he takes his game to a new level-or at least a new continent-on the links of Australian Q-School, where amidst forty-mile-an-hour winds he must choose between the love of a fickle game and the love of the long-suffering woman who has stood by him throughout all the shanks, hooks, yips, and chili dips.
Brimming with humor and insight about the world's most beautiful and maddening game, Paper Tiger will delight golfers and the sane people who love them.
FYI he goes to Q School and doesnt make it (nerves get him) Q school is a 6 round tournament every year where the top 30 players get to the PGA Tour, after that people get membership to the minor league tours.
I definitely think in something like BW this could be done if complete dedication was put forth.
Golf is different though since its just you and the ball and you don't have to worry about better players imposing their will on you, like they could in something like Starcraft.
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On January 15 2009 07:44 TheFlashyOne wrote:
Racenilatr ..i think we discussed that in the few posts above..
whoops! Was in the library and i was being rushed so i only read the first page and like only a couple posts on the second page O_o
Complete dedication....having no social life whatsoever or very little methinks? idk but I think that it's still possible to have a social life and not have COMPLETE dedication if you spend your practice time correctly. Ofcourse you do have to have strong dedication but not to the point where like starcraft is your life and the only thing you do.
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On January 15 2009 07:42 Jyvblamo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2009 07:35 Racenilatr wrote:
Well, also is there really like "talented" people in starcraft? Like lets say theres a person who practices alot and does everything correctly to get to a higher level. Then there's another person who does exactly the same thing, with the same conditions except he gets to the same level the other person is trying to get to faster. Can that happen? IIRC, in that old National Geographic documentary on Xellos, they did a brain scan of Xellos playing SC and a regular guy playing SC, and they found striking differences between the two.
The brain scan involved natural reflexes from intuition, not the difference between two hardcore players. It was showing how his brain worked as opposed to someone else who didn't know much about SC. In short, it was proving that Xellos does most Starcraft actions from instinct, as opposed to interpreting what he sees through his eyes, then making a concious decision based upon that. It can naturally be assumed that the brainscans of any seasoned SC player (pro or not) would look similar to Xellos'.
All in all, that study has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
On the topic, yes I believe most anyone who is willing to put forth the time and effort could become "B" level, and there would in fact be no maximum for almost any person. You can always improve at something if you continue to do it, and your physical condition allows it. HOWEVER, it would take some people FAR longer to achieve this skill than others, therefore making it impossible for them to reach a certain level, simply because time would not allow it. It may take someone 5 years to accomplish "B" level by playing X hours per day, while others could do it in 1, playing the same daily amount. The slower learner would likely never be able to achieve an extremely high level of skill, simply because time would not likely allow it. The slower learner would also have difficulties keeping up with changes within the scene as well.
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I think B is readily possible for just about anyone who puts effort into improving but when i think hows it's possible I'm thinking you reach b with a record with 200 ish games in there not a B rank with high win raito.
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talent DOES exist, and shows at the highest levels of play but to about B is all about effort, determination, discipline and mastery of the basic skills
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One of the great Spanish violinists, Pablo Sarasate, once said :
"A genius! For 37 years I’ve practiced fourteen hours a day, and now they call me a genius!”
That said, if everyone at D could get as good as C, then D would just be the new C. Consider what 2001 era progamers would rank on ICC now, for example. In that sense, you can always get better, no matter what the grade, and you can always get better enough to be much better than most people. Only one person can win an OSL, though. That's the nature of the beast.
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No. No. No.No.
The average player can never reach current B on iccup sorry. physical cordination, real time thinking, memory, aggression.... sorry I think the reason that after all these years there are more fans of pro gamers and less then 300 or so of them in the world at this game, speaks volumes.
There is a such thing as talent. I don't like it because it means somethings no matter how hard I'll try I can never be the best, but part of growing up is growing to live with that.
The average person of this forum couldn't reach be within a year if they started at d infact I think even with a full time playing schedule most of them couldn't do it in 2 or 3. How many of you have been playing broodwar for years and never gotten good.
Fact most players don't have the talent to play at a higher level.
Multi-tasking is a mental feat and some people just can't do it. There are players who have a perfect rythmic comprehension of broodwar micro, I don't, I sure as fuck can kill a few marines, but no matter how long I practiced I wouldn't have the artstry of yellow,luxury,zero or jaedong.
I think alot of people need to get real about the fact that limitations hold people back.
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I personally know people who have put years into broodwar and are in the D+/C- range and I mean years of ladders going 100/400 and still not ever getting good enough ... I can't believe the things people are willing to tell themselves.
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The only B+ player in the thread who has posted doesn't think its possible.
BTW
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like i said, 90% of people will be CAPPED at around C+ or B- on the 2009 ICCUP level. no matter how much they play, how good their teacher is and how efficient their practice system is.
To make it to B or above you need 2 things;
1. Be in the Top 10% talent wise of the active and competitive playing population
2. Practice your ass off.
To Make it to A or above you need 2 things;
1. Be in the Top 1% talent wise of the active and competitive playing population
2. Practice your ass off.
To make it to progaming levels, reduce the % to about 0.001%
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EPT
